From: hflib017@huey.csun.edu (wayne cohen) Subject: Medieval Pearl Harbors (?) Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Organization: California State University, Northridge X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.166.1.8 Message-ID: <34902d04.0@130.166.1.64> Date: 11 Dec 97 18:12:20 GMT Lines: 6 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!newsfeed.direct.ca!mr.net!newshub.csu.net!130.166.1.64!hflib017 What were the most famous 'Surprise Attacks' (which of course sounds like an impossibility in an era of slow moving armies) of th Medieval Period of warfare. thanks -wayne -- ###### From: Alex Milman Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: Medieval Pearl Harbors (?) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:37:35 -0500 Organization: GTE Laboratories Lines: 28 Message-ID: <349040FF.50F@gte.com> References: <34902d04.0@130.166.1.64> NNTP-Posting-Host: 132.197.137.8 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.eng.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.gte.com!not-for-mail wayne cohen wrote: > > What were the most famous 'Surprise Attacks' (which of course sounds like > an impossibility in an era of slow moving armies) of th Medieval Period of > warfare. Not all armies of Middle Ages had been slow and a surprise attack was far from impossibility. But your question is not clear. Sempah was Swiss surprise attack on Austrian army but it hardly can be compared with Pearl Harbor because Austrian forces had been moving to attack Bern. On a tactical level Mongols arranged a surprise attack vs Gleb, Great Prince of Suzdal and Vladimir (on river Sit) but it was, again, not a direct analogy because sides had been already in a state of war and most of Gleb's territories had been already conquered. Appr at the same time Russian Prince Alexander launched a successful surprise attack against Swedish army under Earl Birger (on r. Neva). Again, not exactly Pearl Harbor because Swedes landed on Russian territory. AFAIK, battle at Methewen (English against Robert the Bruce) had been a surprise on a tactical level (unpleasant surprise for Robert). More or less strategic surprise was march of Dmitry, Great Prince of Moscow, into the territory of Western Golden Horde. His opponent emir Mamay had been forced to accept battle with the ragtag force of mercenaries. ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: Medieval Pearl Harbors (?) Date: 12 Dec 1997 22:33:04 +0100 Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <34902d04.0@130.166.1.64> <349040FF.50F@gte.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Alex Milman made a few remarks on the battle of "Sempah". May I correct him on them: - Sempah The place is called Sempach. Find it on any Swiss map, ICBM: N 47:08, E 8:12 - Swiss surprise attack Actually the Swiss first expected the battle in Zuerich (because of a false attack there), then they cut accross to Sempach. Arrived just fast enough (and in big enough amount:-)) - Austrian army Habsburg army, please. They were from todays north Switzerland and south Germany. The Habsburg (hawk castle) is actually in todays Switzerland (state Aargau), I have been there (visited the ruins). The Habsburg family became the rulers of large tracts of Europe, later (after the middle ages) they were reduced to Austria (last shrinking in 1919). - Austrian forces had been moving to attack Bern. Surely not (unless badly missguided). Bern is 50 km (35 miles) west of Sempach and the attackers were moving south-eastwards away from the plain that Bern is in. Luzern would be the next big thing in their direction (Sempach is in state Luzern). Greetings from Neil Franklin, Winterthur, state Zuerich, Switzerland We had all this in 6th grade at shool. I'm paraphrasing from my shool notes (BTW: these have 2 Landsknechts on the front). -- Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: Any computer, that is running optimally, is outdated; including my Cx486 ###### From: Alex Milman Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: Medieval Pearl Harbors (?) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:17:10 -0500 Organization: GTE Laboratories Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3496A986.1B3@gte.com> References: <34902d04.0@130.166.1.64> <349040FF.50F@gte.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 132.197.137.8 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.gte.com!not-for-mail Neil Franklin wrote: > > Alex Milman made a few remarks on the battle of > "Sempah". May I correct him on them: > > - Sempah > The place is called Sempach. > Find it on any Swiss map, ICBM: N 47:08, E 8:12 > Thanks for a correction > - Swiss surprise attack > Actually the Swiss first expected the battle in Zuerich (because of a > false attack there), then they cut accross to Sempach. Arrived just > fast enough (and in big enough amount:-)) True, but they also managed to surprise their opponents. > > - Austrian army > Habsburg army, please. They were from todays north Switzerland and south > Germany. The Habsburg (hawk castle) is actually in todays Switzerland > (state Aargau), I have been there (visited the ruins). The Habsburg > family became the rulers of large tracts of Europe, later (after the > middle ages) they were reduced to Austria (last shrinking in 1919). Habsburgs had a title of Archduke of Austria since XII.So Leopold was Duke of Austria, among other things.