From: hrudolp1@callisto.uwinnipeg (Hendrick Rudolph) Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:52:31 GMT Organization: University of Winnipeg Lines: 24 Message-ID: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> Reply-To: hrudolp1@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: sdi5m11.uwinnipeg.ca X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!scanner.worldgate.com!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!titan.uwinnipeg.ca!not-for-mail Were the Religious leaders of the ''Christian'' church of the early part of the Millennium women, as I have read on more then one occasion and if they were, why were their powers taken away from them. How did they fail in maintaining their powers, when their religion was starting to prosper, one would think so would their power, as has often been the case with religious sects *********************************************************************** Love is an evil trick that nature plays on people to get them to breed. Die well friend. What does not kill you, makes you stronger. Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Truth "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." - Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason The Man from The Great White North (me) . ********************************************************************** ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: 11 Dec 1997 21:26:54 +0100 Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Hendrick Rudolph> Were the Religious leaders of the ''Christian'' church of the early part of the Millennium women, as I have read on more then one occasion The first christians had no leaders in the sense of defined positions in an hierarchy (church). The first ca 200 years there was a leadership by those who were convincing, mainly those well immersed in study and prepared to actively do deeds. Many of these were women, allthough I would assume less than 50% (see 12 appostles vs 3(?) Marys) despite more than 50% of believers being women. Hendrick Rudolph> and if they were, why were their powers taken away from them. How did they fail in maintaining their powers, when their religion was starting to prosper, one would think so would their power, When the control went over to a organisation (originally for shollary reasons, then unified theology) those in policy defining positions became dominant. These were professionals, therefore in those days society largely men (women were professionaly mothers). When positions became power politics or even herediterial the remaining few women were driven out of the hierarchy. BTW the same repeated itsself 700 years later in Islam. Mohammeds followers were more than 50% women but around 1000 they were pushed out by power politics. Both Jesus and Mohammed were for equal rights, both of theirs successors didn't live up to their founders level. Hendrick Rudolph> as has often been the case with religious sects Most modern sects take equal rights from modern society, where it is established. The christians 200 years ago were surrounded by societies (jews and romans) that regarded women as possesssions. Newly entering members were not sieved for belief in equal rights (was not the main aim), so it fell by the side. -- Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: Any computer, that is running optimally, is outdated; including my Cx486 ###### From: Michael P Collins Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:34:57 -0500 Organization: Institute for Complex Engineered Systems, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: po8.andrew.cmu.edu X-Added: With Flames (outnews v2.6) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.103.147.20!news.voicenet.com!dsinc!pitt.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!mc7f+ Neil Franklin writes: > Hendrick Rudolph> > Were the Religious leaders of the ''Christian'' church of the early > part of the Millennium women, as I have read on more then one occasion > > The first christians had no leaders in the sense of defined positions > in an hierarchy (church). The first ca 200 years there was a > leadership by those who were convincing, mainly those well immersed in > study and prepared to actively do deeds. Many of these were women, > allthough I would assume less than 50% (see 12 appostles vs 3(?) > Marys) despite more than 50% of believers being women. > > Hendrick Rudolph> > and if they were, why were their powers taken away from them. How did > they fail in maintaining their powers, when their religion was > starting to prosper, one would think so would their power, > > When the control went over to a organisation (originally for shollary > reasons, then unified theology) those in policy defining positions > became dominant. These were professionals, therefore in those days > society largely men (women were professionaly mothers). > > When positions became power politics or even herediterial the > remaining few women were driven out of the hierarchy. > > BTW the same repeated itsself 700 years later in Islam. Mohammeds > followers were more than 50% women but around 1000 they were pushed > out by power politics. > [Deletia] I think it may, in both cases, be a matter of societal customs assuming the mantle of religion. The Romans, in particular, were never exactly noted for their equal treatment of women; I have one book which notes, a bit snidely, that until the repeal of the Oppian Law, there were less than a dozen women mentioned in Roman history, and the odds that all of them were made up after the fact. Certainly the Irish Church was more female-friendly, and the Carolingians had several influential convents. We see a similar trend in Islam when customs like female circumcision are endorsed by one sect and condemned by another. Buddhism, at the beginning was fairly feminist also. I think it's more a matter that, religious founders aside, all societies have been pretty sexist, and religion, once it goes mainstream, adopts the societal traditions. Heck, if Christianity can contain Calvinism and Liberation Theology under the same title, it can hold anything... Michael Collins, mc7f@andrew.cmu.edu Everything interesting happens at the interfaces. ###### From: Charles & Karen Hofmann Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:14:33 -0700 Organization: German GC Lines: 40 Message-ID: <3491C558.F831BA40@azstarnet.com> References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> Reply-To: hofmann@azstarnet.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 169.197.37.84 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) To: Neil Franklin Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!gatech!192.26.210.166.MISMATCH!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!feeder.news.azstarnet.com!reader1.news.azstarnet.com!news Neil Franklin wrote: > Hendrick Rudolph> > Were the Religious leaders of the ''Christian'' church of the early > part of the Millennium women, as I have read on more then one occasion > > became dominant. These were professionals, therefore in those days > society largely men (women were professionaly mothers). > > BTW the same repeated itsself 700 years later in Islam. Mohammeds > followers were more than 50% women but around 1000 they were pushed > out by power politics. > > Both Jesus and Mohammed were for equal rights, both of theirs > successors didn't live up to their founders level. > > Hendrick Rudolph> > as has often been the case with religious sects > > Most modern sects take equal rights from modern society, where it is > established. The christians 200 years ago were surrounded by > societies (jews and romans) that regarded women as possesssions. Newly > entering members were not sieved for belief in equal rights (was not > the main aim), so it fell by the side. It is not ended today either. I recently heard there is a move afoot by the Missouri Synod Lutherans in Missouri to again keep women from voting. Interesting when you realize that it took 2 women to bring the disciples back to Jesus after he was resurrected. Later they (the men) wrote in one of the letters in the Bible, to ensure women would not ever be allowed in a position of leadership. -- ###### From: hrudolp1@callisto.uwinnipeg (Hendrick Rudolph) Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:29:44 GMT Organization: University of Winnipeg Lines: 38 Message-ID: <66t0cs$fgs$1@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> <3491C558.F831BA40@azstarnet.com> Reply-To: hrudolp1@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: sdi5m12.uwinnipeg.ca X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!scanner.worldgate.com!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!titan.uwinnipeg.ca!not-for-mail >It is not ended today either. I recently heard there is a move afoot by the >Missouri Synod Lutherans in Missouri to again keep women from voting. >Interesting when you realize that it took 2 women to bring the disciples >back to Jesus after he was resurrected. Later they (the men) wrote in one >of the letters in the Bible, to ensure women would not ever be allowed in a >position of leadership. I do believe quit possitively that women did have leadership roles in the early unorganized church, even taking confession and masss. >-- > *********************************************************************** Love is an evil trick that nature plays on people to get them to breed. Die well friend. What does not kill you, makes you stronger. Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Truth "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." - Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason All E-mails must be in either German or Engish since I don't know a fucking word of French. Yes I am still Canadian The Man from The Great White North (me). ********************************************************************** ###### From: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: 11 Dec 1997 16:11:22 GMT Organization: N.Ill.U. Physics Dept. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <66p3ba$oj4@corn.cso.niu.edu> References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> Reply-To: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: niuhep.physics.niu.edu Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!corn.cso.niu.edu!niuhep.physics.niu.edu!MORPHIS hrudolp1@callisto.uwinnipeg (Hendrick Rudolph) writes: >Were the Religious leaders of the ''Christian'' church of the early >part of the Millennium women, as I have read on more then one occasion >and if they were, why were their powers taken away from them. How did >they fail in maintaining their powers, when their religion was >starting to prosper, one would think so would their power, as has >often been the case with religious sects I rather suspect this is more properly directed at soc.history.ancient. None-the-less... I don't think they ever had widespread /power/. There is certainly evidence for women being leaders in local churches, regionally I am not well enough versed to say one way or another. I suspect two things happened, one, the Church became Romanized, two, people (IM-very-HO) misread/overemphasized Paul. The first is a good topic for debate in s.h.ancient, the second is a good topic for a flame war in the religious groups. Robert ###### From: Curt Emanuel Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:55:03 -0600 Organization: Zippo News Service [http://www.zippo.com] Lines: 25 Message-ID: <34907D57.6997@accs.net> References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-989.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!zdc-e!szdc!super.zippo.com!newsp.zippo.com!snews2 Hendrick Rudolph wrote: > > Were the Religious leaders of the ''Christian'' church of the early > part of the Millennium women, as I have read on more then one occasion > and if they were, why were their powers taken away from them. How did > they fail in maintaining their powers, when their religion was > starting to prosper, one would think so would their power, as has > often been the case with religious sects It would be hard to ever classify women as "the religious leaders" of the Church, but when it was in its infancy, some thought women should have a more prominent role. One of the prominent sects of the very early church (1st and 2nd centuries) were the Gnostics who believed that women should be equal with men (able to serve as priests, etc). Even after they were discredited, there were those who believed that women should have an important role in the Church. In the late 4th and early fifth centuries Ambrose and Augustine wrote extensively on women's inferior nature and how they should be excluded from leadership in the Church. One of their primary arguments was that women tended to reenact Eve in her role as a temptress, and therefore could not be trusted. Curt Emanuel ###### Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Message-ID: From: Mrovka Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:31:59 -0500 References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> <34907D57.6997@accs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gusun.georgetown.edu X-Sender: wilsons1@gusun In-Reply-To: <34907D57.6997@accs.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 15 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.wildstar.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!guvax.acc.georgetown.edu!gusun!wilsons1 On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Curt Emanuel wrote: > > One of their primary arguments was that women tended to reenact Eve in > her role as a temptress, and therefore could not be trusted. But they obviously didn't worry about men reenacting Adam in his role as a dumbass. :) suzi -maybe someday i'll know what i want from my life- -but then i'll be dead- -viva la vestibule!- ###### Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval From: dmeehan@csun.edu (Dan Meehan) Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:17:11 Message-ID: Lines: 23 References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> Organization: CSU Northridge X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A] NNTP-Posting-Host: s010n196.csun.edu Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!newshub.csu.net!130.166.1.64!s010n196.csun.edu!dmeehan In article <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> hrudolp1@callisto.uwinnipeg (Hendrick Rudolph) writes: >From: hrudolp1@callisto.uwinnipeg (Hendrick Rudolph) >Subject: How did early christian women loose their power? >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:52:31 GMT >Were the Religious leaders of the ''Christian'' church of the early >part of the Millennium women, as I have read on more then one occasion Could you perhaps mention where you read this? >and if they were, why were their powers taken away from them. How did >they fail in maintaining their powers, when their religion was >starting to prosper, one would think so would their power, as has >often been the case with religious sects Are you talking about the current millenium? I don't recall too many female religious leaders from the 11th or 12th centuries - Hildegaard of Bingen is the only one who springs to mind. Dan Meehan ###### From: Thomas Cramer Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:48:50 -0800 Organization: University of Idaho, Moscow, Idaho Lines: 12 Distribution: world Message-ID: <34918712.A19CA218@uidaho.edu> References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc001583.reshall.uidaho.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) To: Dan Meehan Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!gatech!4.1.16.34.MISMATCH!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!138.95.18.2!wilbur.sequent.com!newsfeed.orst.edu!news.uidaho.edu!not-for-mail > Are you talking about the current millenium? I don't recall too many > female religious leaders from the 11th or 12th centuries - Hildegaard of > Bingen is the only one who springs to mind. > > Dan Meehan If you like I could compile a list of about 20-30 other women of the same time period. But those would just be the important ones. But without that work, suffice it to say that there were numerous women who held leadership positions in that time and throughout the medieval time period. Thomas Cramer ###### From: hrudolp1@callisto.uwinnipeg (Hendrick Rudolph) Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:32:44 GMT Organization: University of Winnipeg Lines: 41 Message-ID: <66t0ic$fgs$2@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> Reply-To: hrudolp1@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: sdi5m12.uwinnipeg.ca X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!scanner.worldgate.com!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!titan.uwinnipeg.ca!not-for-mail dmeehan@csun.edu (Dan Meehan) wrote: >In article <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> hrudolp1@callisto.uwinnipeg (Hendrick Rudolph) writes: >>From: hrudolp1@callisto.uwinnipeg (Hendrick Rudolph) >>Subject: How did early christian women loose their power? >>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:52:31 GMT >>Were the Religious leaders of the ''Christian'' church of the early >>part of the Millennium women, as I have read on more then one occasion >Could you perhaps mention where you read this? I meant in the early part of the 1st Millennium, I realize now that I am off topic sorry. AS for my source it was a grade 12 highschool history text. *********************************************************************** Love is an evil trick that nature plays on people to get them to breed. Die well friend. What does not kill you, makes you stronger. Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Truth "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." - Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason All E-mails must be in either German or Engish since I don't know a fucking word of French. Yes I am still Canadian The Man from The Great White North (me). ********************************************************************** ###### From: Curt Emanuel Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:41:48 -0600 Organization: Zippo News Service [http://www.zippo.com] Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3493FE3C.1357@accs.net> References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> <34907D57.6997@accs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-173.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!zdc!szdc!super.zippo.com!newsp.zippo.com!snews2 Mrovka wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Curt Emanuel wrote: > > > > > One of their primary arguments was that women tended to reenact Eve in > > her role as a temptress, and therefore could not be trusted. > > But they obviously didn't worry about men reenacting Adam in his role as a > dumbass. > :) I'll take what was obviously meant in humor and reply to it seriously (don't worry - it _was_ funny). This goes back to the whole concept of original sin. There were some theologians who felt that Adam's original sin had been carried by men until Christ redeemed them on the cross. But no one had redeemed women. Around the 12th century the Cult of the Virgin popped up, which greatly enhanced women's stature. Eventually it was thought that by staying with Christ at the cross Mary Magdalene had redeemed women, as Jesus had men. Curt Emanuel ###### From: F_Lippok@t-online.de (Frank Lippok) Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: 14 Dec 1997 14:03:07 GMT Organization: T-Online Lines: 15 Message-ID: <670ous$ahm$7@news00.btx.dtag.de> References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sender: 0231591253-0001@t-online.de X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.iag.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.idt.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-sea-19.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!194.25.2.138!newsfeed00.btx.dtag.de!news.btx.dtag.de!not-for-mail On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:52:31 GMT, hrudolp1@callisto.uwinnipeg (Hendrick Rudolph) wrote: >Were the Religious leaders of the ''Christian'' church of the early >part of the Millennium women, as I have read on more then one occasion >and if they were, why were their powers taken away from them. How did >they fail in maintaining their powers, when their religion was >starting to prosper, one would think so would their power, as has >often been the case with religious sects It may be helpful to consider the legal situation of woman in Church. Were woman ever allowed to become priest? Regards, Frank Lippok ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: 15 Dec 1997 00:39:33 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> <34907D57.6997@accs.net> <3493FE3C.1357@accs.net> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Curt Emanuel wrote: > One of their primary arguments was that women tended to reenact Eve in > her role as a temptress, and therefore could not be trusted. Mrovka wrote: > But they obviously didn't worry about men reenacting Adam in his role as a > dumbass. Curt Emanuel wrote: > This goes back to the whole concept of original sin. There were some > theologians who felt that Adam's original sin had been carried by men > until Christ redeemed them on the cross. But no one had redeemed women. Original sin carried by men? Christ not redeeming woman? The variant I have heard (multiple sources, only verbal) went as following: Original sin was carried (mainly) by women. That was given as the reason why she was "marked" with menstruation as unclean and in need of ritual cleaning and punnished with the suffering of painfull birthing (as opposed to other female creatures). Then Christ redeemed all humans for their sins. That is why women were accepted as equals in early christian society, before being subjected again for power politics reasons. I notice that you say "some theologians", but I think that that must have been a minority view. Or did I miss something? Is my version the original, later bent up by theologians to justify the re-subjection? Curt Emanuel wrote: > Around the 12th century the Cult of the Virgin popped up, which greatly > enhanced women's stature. Eventually it was thought that by staying with > Christ at the cross Mary Magdalene had redeemed women, as Jesus had men. How could Mary (human) redeem anyone, as Jesus (God) had? Or is this just more twisted thinking by the same theologians mentioned above? -- Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: Any computer, that is running optimally, is outdated; including my Cx486 ###### From: Curt Emanuel Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:44:16 -0600 Organization: Zippo News Service [http://www.zippo.com] Lines: 106 Message-ID: <3494D1C0.233D@accs.net> References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> <34907D57.6997@accs.net> <3493FE3C.1357@accs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-529.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!205.185.79.5!zdc!szdc!super.zippo.com!newsp.zippo.com!snews2 Neil Franklin wrote: > > Curt Emanuel wrote: > > One of their primary arguments was that women tended to reenact Eve in > > her role as a temptress, and therefore could not be trusted. > Mrovka wrote: > > But they obviously didn't worry about men reenacting Adam in his role as a > > dumbass. > Curt Emanuel wrote: > > This goes back to the whole concept of original sin. There were some > > theologians who felt that Adam's original sin had been carried by men > > until Christ redeemed them on the cross. But no one had redeemed women. > > Original sin carried by men? Christ not redeeming woman? > > The variant I have heard (multiple sources, only verbal) went as following: > > Original sin was carried (mainly) by women. That was given as the > reason why she was "marked" with menstruation as unclean and in need > of ritual cleaning and punnished with the suffering of painfull > birthing (as opposed to other female creatures). > > Then Christ redeemed all humans for their sins. That is why women were > accepted as equals in early christian society, before being subjected > again for power politics reasons. Well, women were never considered equals in early christian society - at least not in anything I've read. There were factions in the early Church, of which the Gnostics were the most prominent, who believed they should be, but they were never in the majority. Now if you go back to pre-St. Paul days, this may be true. I just haven't seen anything definitive on it. As far as why they weren't treated as equals, I think that goes more to the personal views of the early church writers, namely Ambrose, Augustine and Jerome (thanks for reminding me - whoever did that - how could I forget his "value system"?). It's hard to say how much "power politics" was in it. Gnostics had other problems besides the women as equals view. When Ambrose was around, I believe there were some women who were arguing for a greater role in the Church but I don't know many of the details. Of course the most important church father with this attitude was St. Paul. In his Letters to the Ephesians he says, "Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church, his body, and is himself its savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands." Ephisians 5:22-24. He had pretty much of a male-dominant opinion on things. > > I notice that you say "some theologians", but I think that that must > have been a minority view. Or did I miss something? Is my version the > original, later bent up by theologians to justify the re-subjection? Well, Ambrose and Augustine both wrote about it (women as subservient to men - not the redemption thing) and they were the two most important theologians (debatable of course) between St. Paul and Gregory the Great. They had enough authority (being pope tends to do that) that everyone else pretty much had to follow along or get in trouble. > > Curt Emanuel wrote: > > Around the 12th century the Cult of the Virgin popped up, which greatly > > enhanced women's stature. Eventually it was thought that by staying with > > Christ at the cross Mary Magdalene had redeemed women, as Jesus had men. > > How could Mary (human) redeem anyone, as Jesus (God) had? Or is this > just more twisted thinking by the same theologians mentioned above? What's twisted? I'd be curious as to any references you have that early Church writers were mentally unbalanced. Now if you're saying inconsistent, that's fine, but keep in mind that some of the most revered Old Testament figures kept concubines and practiced polygamy even while Old Testament texts specifically forbade it. The history of Christianity, and especially the Church (they were largely the same until 1517) is filled with inconsistencies, one of the things that makes it so fascinating. My understanding of the evolution of the concept is that Bernard Clairvaux and Anselm, the Bishop of Canterbury lent a great deal of credibility by their support of the Cult of the Virgin. This movement resulted in the Virgin becoming the ultimate figure of mercy and compassion in the Church - the intercessor on behalf of the penitent. So here we have a Church which says that women are basically duplicitous - to be loved, but not trusted to any degree. But we have a very important Church figure that's female. Pretty inconsistent. Also, by the 12th century romantic writings became much more common. Women were suddenly held in much higher esteem. Eventually, several convents of The Order of Mary Magdalene were established. It seems to me that the Chruch needed to find a way to give women more of an equal role - the times were right for it (as evidenced by how strongly Catharism caught on not much later). I don't believe the "Mary Magdalene as redeemer" ever became official Church doctrine. But it was something that was argued about in the 12th century, as a way to show that women were on a more equal footing with men. I'd have to hunt down more specifics on this to talk about it in any more detail. It was one of the concepts I read in Cantor's _The Civilization of the Middle Ages_. I really liked the book, but one problem is the lack of footnotes so it's hard to track down primary sources. Curt Emanuel ###### From: kate@wwa.com (Kate) Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:03:48 GMT Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: <67232u$gkl$1@hirame.wwa.com> References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> <670ous$ahm$7@news00.btx.dtag.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: digi3-006.wwa.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.241.0.194!news.wwa.com!wwa In article <670ous$ahm$7@news00.btx.dtag.de>, F_Lippok@t-online.de (Frank Lippok) wrote: >It may be helpful to consider the legal situation of woman in Church. >Were woman ever allowed to become priest? Women certainly served as deacons (one of the three forms of Holy Orders) in the early Christian church but were banned by later councils from being ordained as deacons. The role of the deacon in those times is somewhat obscure though and varied from place to place. Prior to the 4th century Bishops were often selected from the ranks of deacons. The role of a deacon has waxed and waned over the centuries in the RCC. It is believed that some women were probably ordained in the Irish Catholic Church before Rome put its foot down, so to speak. St Bridget may have actually been a bishop IIRC. Some abesses had a great deal of power during the medieval period and goverened double monasteries of both men and women. Kate ###### From: Curt Emanuel Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:30:13 -0600 Organization: Zippo News Service [http://www.zippo.com] Lines: 28 Message-ID: <34956925.4F7E@accs.net> References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> <34907D57.6997@accs.net> <3493FE3C.1357@accs.net> <3494D1C0.233D@accs.net> <673jkr$cr5@corn.cso.niu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-817.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!zdc!szdc!super.zippo.com!newsp.zippo.com!snews2 morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote: > > Curt Emanuel writes: > > >Well, women were never considered equals in early christian society - at > >least not in anything I've read. > > What do you make of the dye/clothing dealer who was worshipping at the > riverside in Acts and apparently acting as the head of the local church? > > I fully agree that by 300 or so they had lost most of what power they > had, I just don't think the situation in the very early Church was quite > as clear and consistant as some think. Oh, if you go by the NT, it's clear (at least to me) that women should have been given a much larger role than they were. But St. Paul came along and he thought differently (of course he thought that all sex was bad). I don't know much of the workings of the _very_ early Church - my feeling was that they started off as scattered pockets who slowly grew in number until Paul conversion gave them a shot in the arm. I have little doubt that if they developed their religion strictly from the Bible, that women had a much larger role than they did a few hundred years later. I just haven't seen anything that says that the organized Church ever gave them much of a role. Curt Emanuel ###### From: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: 15 Dec 1997 15:50:51 GMT Organization: N.Ill.U. Physics Dept. Lines: 41 Message-ID: <673jkr$cr5@corn.cso.niu.edu> References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> <34907D57.6997@accs.net> <3493FE3C.1357@accs.net> <3494D1C0.233D@accs.net> Reply-To: morphis@niuhep.physics.niu.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: niuhep.physics.niu.edu Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!News.Vancouver.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!ais.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!corn.cso.niu.edu!niuhep.physics.niu.edu!MORPHIS Curt Emanuel writes: >Neil Franklin wrote: >> Curt Emanuel wrote: >> > This goes back to the whole concept of original sin. There were some >> > theologians who felt that Adam's original sin had been carried by men >> > until Christ redeemed them on the cross. But no one had redeemed women. >> Original sin carried by men? Christ not redeeming woman? >> The variant I have heard (multiple sources, only verbal) went as following: >> Original sin was carried (mainly) by women. That was given as the >> reason why she was "marked" with menstruation as unclean and in need >> of ritual cleaning Blood (and bodily fluids in general) were considered unclean, so the ritual cleansing would have been required in any case. >> and punnished with the suffering of painfull >> birthing (as opposed to other female creatures). While men "only" had to fight with the earth to try to get food to grow from the sweat of his brow? >> Then Christ redeemed all humans for their sins. That is why women were >> accepted as equals in early christian society, before being subjected >> again for power politics reasons. >Well, women were never considered equals in early christian society - at >least not in anything I've read. What do you make of the dye/clothing dealer who was worshipping at the riverside in Acts and apparently acting as the head of the local church? I fully agree that by 300 or so they had lost most of what power they had, I just don't think the situation in the very early Church was quite as clear and consistant as some think. Robert ###### From: ebroadwe@dept.english.upenn.edu (Liz Broadwell) Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: 15 Dec 1997 18:48:08 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 18 Message-ID: <673u18$m4r$1@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> <34907D57.6997@accs.net> <3493FE3C.1357@accs.net> <3494D1C0.233D@accs.net> <673jkr$cr5@corn.cso.niu.edu> <34956925.4F7E@accs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dept.english.upenn.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2-upenn1.3] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!cs.uoregon.edu!usenet.cat.pdx.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!mr.net!news-out.communique.net!communique!newsfeed.direct.ca!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.voicenet.com!nntp.upenn.edu!dept.english.upenn.edu!ebroadwe Jo Ann McNamara's book _Sisters in Arms: Catholic Nuns through Two Millenia_ has a fair amount to say about the role of women in the western Church in the patristic and medieval periods. It's a good read, informative and, IMHO, very well researched. Apologies if it's already been recommended; I zapped a number of messages this morning. Peace, Liz -- Elizabeth Broadwell | At Christmas I no more desire a rose (ebroadwe@english.upenn.edu) | Than wish a snow in May's new-fangled mirth; English Department | But like of each thing that in season grows. University of Pennsylvania | -- William Shakespeare ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin (reply remove nospam.) Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: 16 Dec 1997 00:51:23 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> <34907D57.6997@accs.net> <3493FE3C.1357@accs.net> <3494D1C0.233D@accs.net>Reply-To: morphis@niuhep.physics.ni <673jkr$cr5@corn.cso.niu.edu> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Neil> Original sin was carried (mainly) by women. That was given as the reason why she was "marked" with menstruation as unclean and in need Robert of ritual cleaning Blood (and bodily fluids in general) were considered unclean, so the ritual cleansing would have been required in any case. Yes blood was considered unclean, cleaning neccessary. But what I was actually refering to was the explanation they gave for why women had been made with blood spilling out of them unlike most other female animals. This was claimed to be gods marking of their original sin. Source: somewhere in the Old Testament. Neil> and punnished with the suffering of painfull birthing (as opposed to other female creatures). Robert> While men "only" had to fight with the earth to try to get food to grow from the sweat of his brow? Sweat of brow applied to both sexes (women also did field labour). Here again it was the woman pain <-> other female animals not/less that they were trying to explain as her being marked. Robert> I just don't think the situation in the very early Church was quite as clear and consistant as some think. That one I will agree immediately with! Actually nearly every historic account we have/make is a simplification of what happent then (whenever/whatever we are talking about). This case is no exemption. -- Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: Any computer, that is running optimally, is outdated; including my Cx486 ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin (reply remove nospam.) Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: How did early christian women loose their power? Date: 16 Dec 1997 00:40:32 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <66nsee$no5$3@titan.uwinnipeg.ca> <34907D57.6997@accs.net> <3493FE3C.1357@accs.net> <3494D1C0.233D@accs.net> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Curt Emanuel> Well, women were never considered equals in early christian society ... Now if you go back to pre-St. Paul days, this may be true. I was thinking of pre-St. Paul notions of equality (Jesus and followers). > I think that goes more to the personal views of the early church writers Ambrose, Augustine and Jerome And Paul with his "friendly" anti-woman letters. > Of course the most important church father with this attitude was St. Paul. In his Letters to the Ephesians he says I spoke too soon:-) Thinking about it: my "power politics" argument was based on the church fathers around 300. But Paul predates that considerably, that makes roman (and jewish?) society anti-woman that more like reason for excluding them, I retreat from my previous position. Neil> just more twisted thinking by the same theologians mentioned above? Curt> What's twisted? I'd be curious as to any references you have that early Church writers were mentally unbalanced. Now if you're saying inconsistent, that's fine, Oops, that comes from translating German "verdreht" into "twisted" at 00.40 on Sunday morning. I missed the second possible (your) interpretation. It was ment as: Bible (Evangelia): all redempted -- twist (Paul et al) -- women not and Christ redempts -- twist -- Mary also > some of the most revered Old Testament figures kept concubines and practiced polygamy even while Old Testament texts Behaviour of persons vs the ideals preached, an endless story:-) > Bernard Clairvaux and Anselm Thats outside my knowledge, no comment. > It seems to me that the Chruch needed to find a way to give women more of an equal role Or more likely teachings appeard that accidently gave them it. Making these teachings successfull by attracting women (and a the better men). -- Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: Any computer, that is running optimally, is outdated; including my Cx486