Message-ID: <3502D0BD.590845BF@con2.com> Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 12:09:17 -0500 From: Luigi Kapaj X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Non-European Personae References: <6dhbcn$6cc$1@news.cudenver.edu> <6diigd$65k@nntp02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: port53.con2.com Lines: 28 Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!feeder.qis.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ais.net!uunet!in5.uu.net!news.con2.com!port53.con2.com I must include my two cents on the notion that the Mongols are a "tenuous connection" Having invaded Poland and sacked BudaPest and sending letters to the Pope demanding his surrender of the "Christian Empire" and controlling Russia for about 200 years and being inadvertently responsable for the building of Moscow through their political games with the Tsars and being the most likely source of the Black Plague reaching Europe from China I believe they had considerable contact and influence. At one point during the Crusades, the Europeans were so terrified of the Mongols that they called a truce with the Egyptians and provided logistics so they could fight off the outsiders before returning to their war. (The Egyptians beat them both) An interesting note: One of the missions sent by the Pope before Marco Polo converted the Khan of The Golden Horde to Christianity. That was short lived, however. Gulug-jab Tangghudai Qan of the Mongochin (a.k.a. Puppy) "I have not brought you liberty, I found it here, among you" - Skanderbeg "Paranoid Schizophrenic" is just a label used by single minded people to obstruct those of us who think differently. - me, myself and I ###### From: mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Non-European Personae Date: 10 Mar 1998 11:29:30 GMT Organization: Monash Uni Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6e386q$vha$1@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au> References: <6dhbcn$6cc$1@news.cudenver.edu> <6diigd$65k@nntp02.primenet.com> <3502D0BD.590845BF@con2.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au X-NNTP-Posting-User: mongoose X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950823BETA PL0] Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au!yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au!not-for-mail Luigi Kapaj (puppy@con2.com) wrote: : I must include my two cents on the notion that the Mongols are a : "tenuous connection" : : {examples of how terrified Europe was of the Mongols snipped} : I think everyone would agree that the presence of the Mongols east of the borders greatly altered European thought at the time. Paris owes one of its Saints to the Mongols not turning up. But how much did they interact socially? The Vikings, for instance, were not only part of Western Europe, but once they'd stopped invading they did interact. They settled down, founded the city of Dublin, traded limes, that sort of thing. Other than act as a menace, did they ever just hang out with the people of Western Europe. Note, this is not a rhetorical question, I don't know the answer myself. -- Conrad Leviston | 'Quotation is the refuge of the lame mind'- Confucius http://yoyo.cc | 'It takes a thief to catch a thief, and for the same ..monash.edu.au | reason it takes a mongoose to catch a snake in the /~mongoose/ | grass'- Herbert Frond ###### From: schuldy@abel.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Non-European Personae Date: 10 Mar 1998 16:16:31 GMT Organization: My own little corner. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6e3p0v$89c$1@news.fas.harvard.edu> References: <6dhbcn$6cc$1@news.cudenver.edu> <6diigd$65k@nntp02.primenet.com> <3502D0BD.590845BF@con2.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: abel.math.harvard.edu Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!digex!news.fas.harvard.edu!abel!schuldy In article <3502D0BD.590845BF@con2.com>, Luigi Kapaj wrote: >I must include my two cents on the notion that the Mongols are a >"tenuous connection" [long list of contacts deleted] If contact were sufficient, we could all rest easy. But I submit that, if we *are* to be a group as it says in the bylaws, we should primarily re-create that culture. And, I submit, both the Mongols and the Christian Nations would have agreed: the two were NOT the same. (Evidence to the contrary would find an eager audience with me.) Would any self-respecting Mongol consider themselves a member of what we now call Western Culture? (Heaven knows what a Mongol would have called it then.... probably something nasty, or something describing opportunity. :-) Tibor -- Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@math.harvard.edu) "Yep. I have often wished I could charge an idiot tax. But then, I probably would have been hit up for change a few time myself." -- Devin ###### Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: bq676@torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland) Subject: Re: Non-European Personae Message-ID: Organization: Toronto Free-Net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <6dhbcn$6cc$1@news.cudenver.edu> <6diigd$65k@nntp02.primenet.com> <3502D0BD.590845BF@con2.com> <6e3p0v$89c$1@news.fas.harvard.edu> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:31:28 GMT Lines: 27 Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!feed.nntp.acc.ca!torfree!bq676 : Would any self-respecting Mongol consider themselves a member of what we now : call Western Culture? (Heaven knows what a Mongol would have called it : then.... probably something nasty, or something describing opportunity. :-) Forget that: what the heck _is_ "Western Culture"? Where is the dividing line? The Rhein? The Danube? And when does the line come into existance? 14th century? 16th century? Another thing on this subject (that others have not touched upon): we have discussed issues of power. Non-European women (particularly African and South Asia) do not have positions of rank when there is European contact. They end up as slaves/concubines etc. Now, I have played African women as they would have been in period: people tend to get uncomfortable with the realities of period life. To which I say "Tough." However, I'm not going to question a person wants to be a "lady" or a "lord" even if race dictates that they would not have been called such in period. Inez Rosanera, cortigiana Ealdormere -- ****************************************************************************** "If anything is worth doing, it is worth doing in style and on your own terms -- and nobody goddamned else's!" --Lucius Beebe ###### From: bojegei@aol.com (Bojegei) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Non-European Personae Date: 13 Mar 1998 18:46:41 GMT Lines: 53 Message-ID: <19980313184601.NAA04428@ladder01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com References: <6ebg8d$lcg$1@news.fas.harvard.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <6ebg8d$lcg$1@news.fas.harvard.edu>, schuldy@abel.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes: >But the meat of the matter is different. > >To recap the main question: > Would a self-respecting Mongol consider themselves a member of what > we now call Western Culture? Dennis, would you as Buri? > >Dennis answered: > Buri Dogshin is mid-13th Century, living in the Mongol-occupied > Middle East: back then, it seems any self-respecting > Mongol kept to the semi-nomadic traditions. But later Mongols > who had adopted the cultures of the lands they had conquered > (Kublai Khan, for example) still proudly counted themselves Mongol. > As would the members of the Golden Horde in Russia, and the > Mongol upper-class of the Il-Khanates of Persia, I believe. > >Is it safe for me to take this answer as "NO"? Western culture was what >Mongol's didn't practice (in their own minds) even as they began to imitate >it in their daily lives? > > It is perhaps no different, I think, from people who where born > and raised in the US, like their parents and grandparents, still > calling themselves "Irish" or "Italian" or "Chinese". > >I'm not sure it's more than evocative of that fact. Most US folks didn't >come here as invaders, and for those that did, it's been a very long time. >(:-) > >I think that, barring evidence to the contrary (that I know will be >forthcoming if I err), I'll presume that neither Historians nor Mongols >during period would have called Mongols a part of Western Culture. > > Tibor (No disrespect intended) Tibor, this, to me, is a straw-man argument. You're arguing that since the Mongols didn't consider themselved to be persian/arabic when they conquered the Middle East, Russian when they conquered Russia, or Hungarian, or polish, etc. etc then they are not part of Western Culture and therefore really have no place in the SCA. But, as a general rule, invading or conquering people don't consider themselves as part of the conquered culture. When the Romans conquered almost everything did they assimilate themselves or were the conquered assimilated? What about when the Saxons invaded England? Normans invaded England? Goth's invaded Germany? Arab/Bedoins invade the rest of the middle east? Moors invade Spain? If this didn't happen with other cultures, why should it apply to the Mongols?? Bojegei ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Non-European Personae Date: 13 Mar 1998 23:11:16 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 58 Message-ID: <90qe8cmy.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> References: <6dhbcn$6cc$1@news.cudenver.edu> <6diigd$65k@nntp02.primenet.com> <3502D0BD.590845BF@con2.com> <6e3p0v$89c$1@news.fas.harvard.edu> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 unknown wrote: : Would any self-respecting Mongol consider themselves a member of what we now : call Western Culture? (Heaven knows what a Mongol would have called it : then.... probably something nasty, or something describing opportunity. :-) bq676@torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland) asked: > Forget that: what the heck _is_ "Western Culture"? The opposite to _eastern_ culture In the case of this discussion: non asian (near, middle and far eastern). More general: those peoples that share a common cultural root in nordic, germanic, roman (west rome) and latin christianity. > Where is the dividing line? Whether slavic people (neither germanic nor roman, also greek christians) would regard themselves as part of it I do not know. > The Rhein? Certainly not, that runs direct through the middle (to be precise: 10 miles from here where I am writing this, I went swimming in it as a child. And "here" is in western culture, both mundane and period). > The Danube? That runs directly through the slavic peoples. So no, it makes also a bad border for "western". > And when does the line come into existance? > 14th century? 16th century? Whenever the germanic, slavic etc peoples developed their identities. I have no hard figures for that, but would estimate it at before christ. > people tend to get > uncomfortable with the realities of period life. To which I say "Tough." People dont like reality checks, they may bounce :-) > Inez Rosanera, cortigiana Non comprende espaniol [no doubt grammatically wrong, my Spanish is none] could you translate "cortigiana". -- private: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin.remove.this@arch.ethz.ch, http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ If I go missing, its once again my newsfeed that has craped ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Non-European Personae Date: 13 Mar 1998 23:36:12 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 42 Message-ID: <7m5y8bhf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> References: <6ebg8d$lcg$1@news.fas.harvard.edu> <19980313184601.NAA04428@ladder01.news.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 In article <6ebg8d$lcg$1@news.fas.harvard.edu>, schuldy@abel.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes: >To recap the main question: > Would a self-respecting Mongol consider themselves a member of what > we now call Western Culture? bojegei@aol.com (Bojegei) replied: > (No disrespect intended) Tibor, this, to me, is a straw-man argument. You're > arguing that since the Mongols didn't consider themselved to be persian/arabic > when they conquered the Middle East, Russian when they conquered Russia, or > Hungarian, or polish, etc. etc then they are not part of Western Culture and > therefore really have no place in the SCA. The crucial point for SCA is not whether they considered themselves western. But whether they were an part of (= had influence on) western culture. And that they were ("the barbarian hordes are comming!", at least in the 13th century, which is part of SCA period). So a 13th century Mongol is legitimate SCA, OTOH a 10th century Mongol would not be (they weren't known then). > Dennis, would you as Buri? >Dennis answered: > Buri Dogshin is mid-13th Century, living in the Mongol-occupied > Middle East IIRC Dennis once mentioned being a crossbow user, now I see that he is a mongolian persona. AFAIK of Mongolians (not that much) they as horsemen used short composite bows, not crossbows. This prompted me to following question: Did the Mongols have crossbows? Or did Buri pick this up in the Middle East, or ist one of those SCA ahistoricisms? If they did: how would they reload an crossbow while on horseback? -- private: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin.remove.this@arch.ethz.ch, http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ If I go missing, its once again my newsfeed that has craped Last one was 1st to 8th March, full 8 days, brrrr, hope I get to read answers ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!amsterdam.news.unisource.nl!news.IAEhv.nl!newsfeed.wli.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail From: jkrissw@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Non-European Personae Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 21:03:12 -0600 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6efga9$usa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <6dhbcn$6cc$1@news.cudenver.edu> <6diigd$65k@nntp02.primenet.com> <3502D0BD.590845BF@con2.com> <6e386q$vha$1@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.217.232.46 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Mar 15 03:03:12 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.01 (Win95; I) In article <6e386q$vha$1@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au>, mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston) wrote: > The Vikings, for instance, were not only part of > Western Europe, but once they'd stopped invading they did interact. They > settled down, founded the city of Dublin, traded limes, that sort of > thing. Other than act as a menace, did they ever just hang out with the > people of Western Europe. ??? The Vikings, m'lord, STARTED OFF as part of western Europe, the part known as Scandinavia and Denmark. Daveed of Granada, a Jew from Andalusia, but nevertheless a member of Drafn :) -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading