Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.nospam@ccw.ch (remove .nospam) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: End date definition -- was Re: Brewing guilds and guidelines... Date: 07 Jan 1998 22:28:01 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <67r4ep$63l@vortex.globeset.com> <34A7EB77.7DE1@servtech.SPAMSUCKScom> <68a2i6$4ns$1@was.hooked.net> <68a4pc$2op@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <34AA64E0.59E2@servtech.SPAMSUCKScom> <68krsp$smi$6@vnetnews.value.net> Reply-To: greycat@idt.n <68mvn9$1ds@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 From: greycat@idt.net.spamguard (Greycat Sharpclaw) >The end date is defined as 1600 - >But I remember the debate and >the board decision (almost 20 years ago I think) about the end date... >that was a rather interesting arguement. I have allways wondered why the SCA which started out as medieval recreation (that is an over 1000 year period) got 100 years of renaissance tacked on to the end. Specially as the renaissance has more in common with the times after it that with the middle ages. The story of that debate and the arguments issued then sound like they could be an entertaining piece of SCA history to hear about. -- Neil.Franklin.nospam@ccw.ch (remove .nospam), http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.nospam@ccw.ch (remove .nospam) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: End date definition -- was Re: Brewing guilds and guidelines... Date: 07 Jan 1998 22:28:01 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <67r4ep$63l@vortex.globeset.com> <34A7EB77.7DE1@servtech.SPAMSUCKScom> <68a2i6$4ns$1@was.hooked.net> <68a4pc$2op@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <34AA64E0.59E2@servtech.SPAMSUCKScom> <68krsp$smi$6@vnetnews.value.net> Reply-To: greycat@idt.n <68mvn9$1ds@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 And and other one that never made it out. Also reposting it. From: greycat@idt.net.spamguard (Greycat Sharpclaw) >The end date is defined as 1600 - >But I remember the debate and >the board decision (almost 20 years ago I think) about the end date... >that was a rather interesting arguement. I have allways wondered why the SCA which started out as medieval recreation (that is an over 1000 year period) got 100 years of renaissance tacked on to the end. Specially as the renaissance has more in common with the times after it that with the middle ages. The story of that debate and the arguments issued then sound like they could be an entertaining piece of SCA history to hear about. -- Neil.Franklin.nospam@ccw.ch (remove .nospam), http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: If I go missing, its one again my newsfeed that has craped ###### From: moondrgn@bga.com (Chris and Elisabeth Zakes) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: End date definition Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:57:12 GMT Organization: Real/Time Communications Internet customer posting Lines: 34 Message-ID: <34b841cd.7445093@news2.bga.com> References: <67r4ep$63l@vortex.globeset.com> <34A7EB77.7DE1@servtech.SPAMSUCKScom> <68a2i6$4ns$1@was.hooked.net> <68a4pc$2op@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <34AA64E0.59E2@servtech.SPAMSUCKScom> <68krsp$smi$6@vnetnews.value.net> Reply-To: greycat@idt.n <68mvn9$1ds@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> Reply-To: moondrgn@bga.com NNTP-Posting-Host: apm0-47.realtime.net X-RTcode: 0600daf0348819ee71b84323 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.texas.net!feed1.realtime.net!news3.realtime.net!not-for-mail Neil.Franklin.nospam@ccw.ch (remove .nospam) wrote: >From: greycat@idt.net.spamguard (Greycat Sharpclaw) >>The end date is defined as 1600 - >>But I remember the debate and >>the board decision (almost 20 years ago I think) about the end date... >>that was a rather interesting arguement. > >I have allways wondered why the SCA which started out as medieval >recreation (that is an over 1000 year period) got 100 years of >renaissance tacked on to the end. Specially as the renaissance has >more in common with the times after it that with the middle ages. > >The story of that debate and the arguments issued then sound like they >could be an entertaining piece of SCA history to hear about. This is a guess. This is *only* a guess, since I haven't been around (quite) that long. They probably picked 1600 out of the air, just like they made up "Society for Creative Anachronism" on the spur of the moment. I've also heard a theory posited that 1600 was used because while Italy and southern Europe were well into/finishing up the Renaissance the "outer fringes" of Europe were still pretty much medieval. -Tivar Moondragon Ansteorra C and E Zakes Tivar Moondragon (Patience and Persistence) and Aethelyan of Moondragon (Decadence is its own reward) moondrgn@bga.com ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: End date definition Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:17:51 -0500 Organization: IFV, In Ferro Veritas Lines: 6 Sender: bjm10@cornell.edu (Verified) Message-ID: References: <67r4ep$63l@vortex.globeset.com> <34A7EB77.7DE1@servtech.SPAMSUCKScom> <68a2i6$4ns$1@was.hooked.net> <68a4pc$2op@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <34AA64E0.59E2@servtech.SPAMSUCKScom> <68krsp$smi$6@vnetnews.value.net> Reply-To: greycat@idt.n <68mvn9$1ds@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <34b841cd.7445093@news2.bga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.cit.cornell.edu Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!newsxfer.visi.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!potato.cit.cornell.edu!user > >I have allways wondered why the SCA which started out as medieval > >recreation (that is an over 1000 year period) got 100 years of > >renaissance tacked on to the end. Specially as the renaissance has > >more in common with the times after it that with the middle ages. SCA got about 250 years of Renaissance tacked onto the end, not 100. ###### From: Jan Frelin Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: End date definition Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:43:46 +0100 Organization: WinEasy AB Lines: 12 Message-ID: <34BB5372.7A4@wineasy.se> References: <67r4ep$63l@vortex.globeset.com> <34A7EB77.7DE1@servtech.SPAMSUCKScom> <68a2i6$4ns$1@was.hooked.net> <68a4pc$2op@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <34AA64E0.59E2@servtech.SPAMSUCKScom> <68krsp$smi$6@vnetnews.value.net> Reply-To: greycat@idt.n <68mvn9$1ds@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <34b841cd.7445093@news2.bga.com> Reply-To: jan.frelin@wineasy.se NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.42.193.49 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uninett.no!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!192.71.180.34.MISMATCH!mn6.swip.net!seunet!news2.swip.net!news.wineasy.se!postmaster@wineasy.se Bryan J. Maloney wrote: > SCA got about 250 years of Renaissance tacked onto the end, not 100. Depends on who's counting. While 1350 is a reasonable date for Italy, 1450 (at the earliest) might be more reasonable for France and England. For Sweden 1520-1550 is usually used. Cheers, ======================================================================== Hartmann Rogge Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald Jan Frelin Stockholm, Sweden jan.frelin@wineasy.se ###### From: djheydt@uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: End date definition Date: 13 Jan 1998 14:23:19 GMT Organization: University of California at Berkeley Lines: 25 Message-ID: <69ftcn$829$1@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <67r4ep$63l@vortex.globeset.com> <34b841cd.7445093@news2.bga.com> <34BB5372.7A4@wineasy.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: uclink.berkeley.edu Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!streamer1.cleveland.iagnet.net!qual.net!iagnet.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!164.67.42.145!awabi.library.ucla.edu!128.32.155.1!agate!uclink.berkeley.edu!djheydt In article <34BB5372.7A4@wineasy.se>, Jan Frelin wrote: >Bryan J. Maloney wrote: >> SCA got about 250 years of Renaissance tacked onto the end, not 100. > >Depends on who's counting. While 1350 is a reasonable date for Italy, >1450 (at the earliest) might be more reasonable for France and England. >For Sweden 1520-1550 is usually used. And there is the following tale told of C. S. Lewis. A friend met him strolling across the quad one day, smiling like the Cheshire cat. The friend said, "Well, Jack, you're looking pleased; what's up?" And Lewis replied, "I have just established that in England, the Renaissance NEVER HAPPENED. "Alternatively," he added before his friend could get a word in, "*alternatively,* that if it did, it didn't make any difference." Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt Mists/Mists/West Albany, California PRO DEO ET REGE djheydt@uclink.berkeley.edu (My account might go away at any moment; if I vanish, I haven't died.) ###### From: "Norman " Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: End date definition Date: 14 Jan 1998 04:49:18 GMT Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: <01bd20a6$d6507920$5d6f14ce@gfink> References: <67r4ep$63l@vortex.globeset.com> <34A7EB77.7DE1@servtech.SPAMSUCKScom> <68a2i6$4ns$1@was.hooked.net> <68a4pc$2op@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <34AA64E0.59E2@servtech.SPAMSUCKScom> <68krsp$smi$6@vnetnews.value.net> Reply-To: greycat@idt.n <68mvn9$1ds@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <34b841cd.7445093@news2.bga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 15100@206.20.111.93 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Bryan J. Maloney wrote in article ... > > >I have allways wondered why the SCA which started out as medieval > > >recreation (that is an over 1000 year period) got 100 years of > > >renaissance tacked on to the end. Specially as the renaissance has > > >more in common with the times after it that with the middle ages. > > SCA got about 250 years of Renaissance tacked onto the end, not 100. > Well.... If you consider the Carolingian Renaissance, it'd be much more than that On the other hand, considering that the Russians were in the Middle Ages until Peter the Great (or more likely until the beginning of this century) - then the SCA doesn't cover long enough. -- Nahum Kuzari a/k/a Norman Finkelshteyn Silk Road Designs Armoury 1532 East 35th Street Brooklyn, NY 11234 (718) 692-0935 normlaw@yahoo.com ###### From: walkerd@hub.ofthe.net (Donald Walker) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: End date definition Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 06:53:28 GMT Organization: Impeach Clinton/Gore Lines: 33 Message-ID: <34bdb158.2606917@news.hub.ofthe.net> References: <67r4ep$63l@vortex.globeset.com> <34A7EB77.7DE1@servtech.SPAMSUCKScom> <68a2i6$4ns$1@was.hooked.net> <68a4pc$2op@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <34AA64E0.59E2@servtech.SPAMSUCKScom> <68krsp$smi$6@vnetnews.value.net> Reply-To: greycat@idt.n <68mvn9$1ds@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <34b841cd.7445093@news2.bga.com> <01bd20a6$d6507920$5d6f14ce@gfink> NNTP-Posting-Host: 1600@206.139.7.100 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail On 14 Jan 1998 04:49:18 GMT, "Norman " wrote: > > >Bryan J. Maloney wrote in article >... >> > >I have allways wondered why the SCA which started out as medieval >> > >recreation (that is an over 1000 year period) got 100 years of >> > >renaissance tacked on to the end. Specially as the renaissance has >> > >more in common with the times after it that with the middle ages. >> >> SCA got about 250 years of Renaissance tacked onto the end, not 100. >> > >Well.... >If you consider the Carolingian Renaissance, it'd be much more than that >On the other hand, considering that the Russians were in the Middle Ages >until Peter the Great (or more likely until the beginning of this century) >- then the SCA doesn't cover long enough. > >-- >Nahum Kuzari a/k/a Norman Finkelshteyn >Silk Road Designs Armoury >1532 East 35th Street >Brooklyn, NY 11234 >(718) 692-0935 >normlaw@yahoo.com 1917-18 as a cutoff date for the SCA. The Ottoman Empire falls, the Hapsburgs are gone, the Czar is gone and the German Kaiser (the last incarnation of the Holy Roman Empire) is deposed. Sounds good to me Don aka Garth ###### From: lordxbrew@aol.com (Lord Xbrew) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: End date definition Date: 15 Jan 1998 14:31:06 GMT Lines: 18 Message-ID: <19980115143100.JAA06008@ladder02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder02.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news.he.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail > >SCA got about 250 years of Renaissance tacked onto the end, not 100. > > > >I thought it was only 150 as the Renaissance was 1450? and we end at 1600 or is that 151 and 1601......hahahahah this does get silly doesnt it.... and wait ....has the Arab world ever come out of the Middle ages? ROF LOL.. > > > ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: End date definition Date: 18 Jan 1998 02:32:41 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <19980115143100.JAA06008@ladder02.news.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 IIRC it was BJM who stated: > SCA got about 250 years of Renaissance tacked onto the end, not 100. unknown (not quoted and I didn't get the original post) questioned: > I thought it was only 150 as the Renaissance was 1450? and we end at 1600 or > is that 151 and 1601......hahahahah this does get silly doesnt it.... thanks to lordxbrew@aol.com (Lord Xbrew) I still saw it: > ROF LOL.. Well the Renaissance took a long time to spread. So its begin has no exact time. While the first traces of it happen in Italy around 1350 (as BJM said), it then stayed an entirely local phenomena until about 1450 (your date). It only reached middle europe and England round 1500 (which was my original date given). And no doubt some of the nordic countries would even be later than that (1550? 1600? I don't know), or even not at all. And the end of the Renaissance (1600 used by the SCA) is also dependant on place. Germany before 1550 (reformation), England 1600 (James I), others I don't know. unknown added: > and wait....has the Arab world ever come out of the Middle ages? It never was in them, so it did not have to come out of them. The middle ages were defined (by the Renaissance scolars BTW) as the period of their (so european) history between the fall of the west Roman empire and the Renaissance*. As the fall was only that of the west Roman empire, not of the east Roman one, the Arab world (part of east) stayed in it until the rise of Islam. The time for that is also dependant on the place you are looking at, from 630 (Mekka) until after 700 (Afghan/Pakistan, Makgreb). * now try defining the begin of the middle ages for an german/nordic/scot who was never part of the roman empire :-) Confused enough? This _is_ history, nothing is nice and clear :-) -- Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: If I go missing, its once again my newsfeed that has craped