From: "Frederick (Flieg) Hollander" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: The Dream/Das Traum -- was Re: Why the sca is looked down upon Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:18:07 -0800 Organization: Univ. of Cal. -- Berkeley Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3479D2EF.29FB@socrates.Berkeley.edu> References: <34694667.1523945@news.usit.net> <19971115061201.BAA11478@ladder02.news.aol.com> <3476bfc0.543452102@news.pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: xraytoo.cchem.berkeley.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!agate!usenet Lysander wrote: > > >Bryan J. Maloney) wrote: > >>"It's not the 'Dream' that I object to so much as it is the 'the'. > > William wrote: > > Hmmm . . . Maybe that's why I have heard Hilary and Fleeg refer to > > "The" Dream as "Das Tram' (sic??) a time or two . . . > > Das Tram? I'd understand if they'd said 'Das Traum'... but referring to an > open railway streetcar in the German neuter case doesn't make any sense... Yep -- it doesn't, which is why Hilary and I (and several others) did refer to the use of "The Dream" to suppress dissent as 'Das Traum'. ("ein ... ein Traum"). I do want to say that in my observation _MOST_ people who use "the Dream" are _NOT_ doing so in a repressive sense but rather as a shorthand for the sometimes magical separation from the 20th Century which can happen at events when everything "feels real". (Sometimes called "low-light-level epiphany" due to the large number of descriptions of this even involving nighttime, mist, etc.) The origin of the term, as far as I have been able to find out is a wonderful song by Baldwin of Erebor called Welcome to the Current Middle Ages. The tag end of the chorus is "...Come share with us the joys of gentle dalliance/Within a dream which has not passed away." -- * * * Frederick of Holland, MSCA, OP, etc. *|* *|* *|* flieg@socrates.berkeley.edu |===========| (((Flieg Hollander, Chemistry Dept., U.C. Berkeley))) ====================== Old Used Duke ===================== [All subjects of the Crown are equal under its protection.] ###### From: Brett and Karen Williams Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The Dream/Das Traum -- was Re: Why the sca is looked down upon Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:55:58 -0800 Organization: Netcom Lines: 56 Message-ID: <3479F7EE.274EE388@ix.netcom.com> References: <34694667.1523945@news.usit.net> <19971115061201.BAA11478@ladder02.news.aol.com> <3476bfc0.543452102@news.pacbell.net> <3479D2EF.29FB@socrates.Berkeley.edu> Reply-To: brettwi@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lbx-ca34-17.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Nov 24 1:56:53 PM PST 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; U) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!sol.pdnt.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!streamer1.cleveland.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news Frederick (Flieg) Hollander wrote: > > Lysander wrote: > > > > >Bryan J. Maloney) wrote: > > >>"It's not the 'Dream' that I object to so much as it is the 'the'. > > > > William wrote: > > > Hmmm . . . Maybe that's why I have heard Hilary and Fleeg refer to > > > "The" Dream as "Das Tram' (sic??) a time or two . . . > > > > Das Tram? I'd understand if they'd said 'Das Traum'... but referring to an > > open railway streetcar in the German neuter case doesn't make any sense... > > Yep -- it doesn't, which is why Hilary and I (and several others) > did refer to the use of "The Dream" to suppress dissent > as 'Das Traum'. ("ein ... ein Traum"). > I do want to say that in my observation _MOST_ people who > use "the Dream" are _NOT_ doing so in a repressive sense but > rather as a shorthand for the sometimes magical separation from > the 20th Century which can happen at events when everything > "feels real". (Sometimes called "low-light-level epiphany" due > to the large number of descriptions of this even involving nighttime, > mist, etc.) > The origin of the term, as far as I have been able to find out > is a wonderful song by Baldwin of Erebor called Welcome to the > Current Middle Ages. The tag end of the chorus is "...Come share > with us the joys of gentle dalliance/Within a dream which has not > passed away." > > -- > * * * Frederick of Holland, MSCA, OP, etc. > *|* *|* *|* flieg@socrates.berkeley.edu > |===========| > (((Flieg Hollander, Chemistry Dept., U.C. Berkeley))) > ====================== Old Used Duke ===================== > [All subjects of the Crown are equal under its protection.] His Grace makes an interesting point-- however I would respectfully disagree. "Welcome to the Current Middle Ages"-- which is now a very old song-- did not have the effect of spreading the metaphor known as "the Dream" throughout the Society. I think the culprit was Sieglinde Syr's and Iolo fitz Owen's song "Come Share The Dream" published in Tournaments Illuminated for the Twentieth Year Celebration. The chorus goes: Come share the Dream, come hold it in your hands As it might once have been; Come live the legends that will never die, Through us they live again. Baldwin's song is more about the sense of wonder one experiences on finding the Society rather than 'the Dream'. ciorstan ###### From: "E. L. Wimett" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The Dream/Das Traum -- was Re: Why the sca is looked down upon Date: 25 Nov 1997 01:11:23 GMT Organization: Silver Dragon Company Lines: 29 Message-ID: <01bcf93e$21bf3940$c510a6a5@wimett> References: <34694667.1523945@news.usit.net> <19971115061201.BAA11478@ladder02.news.aol.com> <3476bfc0.543452102@news.pacbell.net> <3479D2EF.29FB@socrates.Berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-5.r12.ia-chtn.infoave.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!165.166.15.5!news1.infoave.net!usenet Flieg, I still think we need to put on a "Dream-Aid" concert. . . Frederick (Flieg) Hollander wrote in article <3479D2EF.29FB@socrates.Berkeley.edu>... > Yep -- it doesn't, which is why Hilary and I (and several others) > did refer to the use of "The Dream" to suppress dissent > as 'Das Traum'. ("ein ... ein Traum"). > I do want to say that in my observation _MOST_ people who > use "the Dream" are _NOT_ doing so in a repressive sense but > rather as a shorthand for the sometimes magical separation from > the 20th Century which can happen at events when everything > "feels real". (Sometimes called "low-light-level epiphany" due > to the large number of descriptions of this even involving nighttime, > mist, etc.) > The origin of the term, as far as I have been able to find out > is a wonderful song by Baldwin of Erebor called Welcome to the > Current Middle Ages. The tag end of the chorus is "...Come share > with us the joys of gentle dalliance/Within a dream which has not > passed away." > > -- > * * * Frederick of Holland, MSCA, OP, etc. > *|* *|* *|* flieg@socrates.berkeley.edu > |===========| > (((Flieg Hollander, Chemistry Dept., U.C. Berkeley))) > ====================== Old Used Duke ===================== > [All subjects of the Crown are equal under its protection.] > ###### From: craig1@pacbell.net (Lord William of the West Merlands) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The Dream/Das Traum -- was Re: Why the sca is looked down upon Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:48:36 GMT Organization: House West Merlands Lines: 93 Message-ID: <347b9dec.97110577@news.pacbell.net> References: <34694667.1523945@news.usit.net> <19971115061201.BAA11478@ladder02.news.aol.com> <3476bfc0.543452102@news.pacbell.net> <3479D2EF.29FB@socrates.Berkeley.edu> <3479F7EE.274EE388@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-206-170-1-180.snfc21.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99g/16.339 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.206.0.71!streamer1.cleveland.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!pushkin.conxion.com!news.he.net!news.pbi.net!news.pacbell.net!not-for-mail On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:55:58 -0800, Brett and Karen Williams wrote: >Frederick (Flieg) Hollander wrote: >> >> Lysander wrote: >> > >> > >Bryan J. Maloney) wrote: >> > >>"It's not the 'Dream' that I object to so much as it is the 'the'. >> > >> > William wrote: >> > > Hmmm . . . Maybe that's why I have heard Hilary and Fleeg refer to >> > > "The" Dream as "Das Tram' (sic??) a time or two . . . >> > >> > Das Tram? I'd understand if they'd said 'Das Traum'... but referring to an >> > open railway streetcar in the German neuter case doesn't make any sense... >> >> Yep -- it doesn't, which is why Hilary and I (and several others) >> did refer to the use of "The Dream" to suppress dissent >> as 'Das Traum'. ("ein ... ein Traum"). >> I do want to say that in my observation _MOST_ people who >> use "the Dream" are _NOT_ doing so in a repressive sense but >> rather as a shorthand for the sometimes magical separation from >> the 20th Century which can happen at events when everything >> "feels real". (Sometimes called "low-light-level epiphany" due >> to the large number of descriptions of this even involving nighttime, >> mist, etc.) >> The origin of the term, as far as I have been able to find out >> is a wonderful song by Baldwin of Erebor called Welcome to the >> Current Middle Ages. The tag end of the chorus is "...Come share >> with us the joys of gentle dalliance/Within a dream which has not >> passed away." >> >His Grace makes an interesting point-- however I would respectfully >disagree. "Welcome to the Current Middle Ages"-- which is now a very old >song-- did not have the effect of spreading the metaphor known as "the >Dream" throughout the Society. I think the culprit was Sieglinde Syr's >and Iolo fitz Owen's song "Come Share The Dream" published in >Tournaments Illuminated for the Twentieth Year Celebration. > >The chorus goes: > >Come share the Dream, come hold it in your hands >As it might once have been; >Come live the legends that will never die, >Through us they live again. > >Baldwin's song is more about the sense of wonder one experiences on >finding the Society rather than 'the Dream'. > >ciorstan Whatever the source of the term, I remember "The Dream" being used well before 20YC. Lord William of the West Merlands the Shire of Cloondara, Principality of the Mists, Kingdom of the West (San Francisco, CA) ][ ][ <[]xxxx[]::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::[]xxxx[] ][ ][ Yours in Service; Lord William of the West Merlands Shire of Cloondara, Principality of the Mists, Kingdom of the West ][ ][ <[]xxxx[]::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::[]xxxx[] ][ ][ email to: craig1@pacbell.net (c) copyright 1997, Craig Carter All Rights Reserved ---------- NOTICE: Unsolicited commercial email sent to this address will be subject to a $500 processing fee. Sending mail to this address, manually or automatically, implies consent to these terms. 'By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/ printer meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment. By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for each violation.' for full text: http://www.ca-probate.com/faxlaw.htm ###### From: Wolfgang Mueskens Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: The dream /Das Traum? / der Traum! Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 04:59:24 +0100 Organization: Free-Net Erlangen Nuernberg Fuerth, Germany Lines: 24 Message-ID: <347B9E9C.227BCDE9@fen.baynet.de> References: <34694667.1523945@news.usit.net> <19971115061201.BAA11478@ladder02.news.aol.com> <3476bfc0.543452102@news.pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-er-55.fen.baynet.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.30 i586) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uninett.no!news.algonet.se!uni-erlangen.de!fen!not-for-mail Lysander wrote: > > >Bryan J. Maloney) wrote: > >>"It's not the 'Dream' that I object to so much as it is the 'the'. > > William wrote: > > Hmmm . . . Maybe that's why I have heard Hilary and Fleeg refer to > > "The" Dream as "Das Tram' (sic??) a time or two . . . > > Das Tram? I'd understand if they'd said 'Das Traum'... but referring to an > open railway streetcar in the German neuter case doesn't make any sense... > ;-) > Lysander > Seneschal, College of St. Malachy > (Agaricus, Lochac, Kingdom of the West) If I am not absolutely mistaken :-) it's "der Traum" (ein Traum) - and could anybody please enlighten me where the differences in the meaning of the words "dream" (English) and "Traum" (German) lie. I always thought they meant nearly the same. Greetings Wolfgang vom Bruch ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The dream /Das Traum? / der Traum! Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:41:59 +0100 Organization: Uni Leipzig Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <34694667.1523945@news.usit.net> <19971115061201.BAA11478@ladder02.news.aol.com> <3476bfc0.543452102@news.pacbell.net> <347B9E9C.227BCDE9@fen.baynet.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: studserv.uni-leipzig.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To: Wolfgang Mueskens In-Reply-To: <347B9E9C.227BCDE9@fen.baynet.de> Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!193.174.75.126!news-was.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news.uni-leipzig.de!studserv.uni-leipzig.de!ges95kll On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Wolfgang Mueskens wrote: > > William wrote: > > > Hmmm . . . Maybe that's why I have heard Hilary and Fleeg refer to > > > "The" Dream as "Das Tram' (sic??) a time or two . . . > > > > Das Tram? I'd understand if they'd said 'Das Traum'... but referring to an > > open railway streetcar in the German neuter case doesn't make any sense... > > ;-) > > Lysander > > Seneschal, College of St. Malachy > > (Agaricus, Lochac, Kingdom of the West) > > If I am not absolutely mistaken :-) it's "der Traum" (ein Traum) - and > could anybody please enlighten me where the differences in the meaning > of the words "dream" (English) and "Traum" (German) lie. I always > thought they meant nearly the same. > Wolfgang vom Bruch No difference Wolfgang except this: The term in english has taken on an extended, and many ways undefinable, meaning for people in the SCA. I'm not certain why they would use Traum instead of dream, perhaps someone would enlighten us. I sometimes think of the SCA as "der Alptraum", nicht Wahr? der ehemaliger Brock, O.L. usw... Michael H. Gartner Universitaet Leipzig, Deutschland ****************************************************************************** Da huop sich michel reie von maniger hande gaudine, Von tantze gross geschreie, weder mit tambur noch mit busine Woltan sich die frowen lan betoren: Videln, herpfen, rotten und ander suzze doene sie wolten horen. -Titurel ****************************************************************************** ###### From: "Earl P. Jones" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The dream /Das Traum? / der Traum! Date: 26 Nov 1997 14:12:16 GMT Organization: Korea Telecom Lines: 25 Message-ID: <01bcfa76$c0e74c40$157471d2@Earl.kornet.nm.kr> References: <34694667.1523945@news.usit.net> <19971115061201.BAA11478@ladder02.news.aol.com> <3476bfc0.543452102@news.pacbell.net> <347B9E9C.227BCDE9@fen.baynet.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.113.116.21 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!wilbur.ohww.norman.ok.us!newsfeed.kornet.nm.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!not-for-mail > > If I am not absolutely mistaken :-) it's "der Traum" (ein Traum) - and > > could anybody please enlighten me where the differences in the meaning > > of the words "dream" (English) and "Traum" (German) lie. I always > > thought they meant nearly the same. > > Wolfgang vom Bruch > > No difference Wolfgang except this: The term in english has taken on an > extended, and many ways undefinable, meaning for people in the SCA. I'm > not certain why they would use Traum instead of dream, perhaps someone > would enlighten us. I have to confess that I have occasionally (at least to myself, and possibly to others) used the German language in a non-German context to evoke connotations of the Nazi regime as a prototypical rigid dictatorship. It's an ugly stereotype and completely unfair to most Germans (excepting those who _are_ Nazis), but it does exist. I cannot speak for anyone else, but this is how I have interpreted "Traum" when I have heard it used in the SCA context. It suggests a mindset in which there is but One True Way which _must_ be imposed on everyone by whatever means necessary. It also suggests extreme opposition to that mindset on the part of the speaker. I apologize to anyone who is offended by this, and re-emphasize that I am only speaking of _MY_OWN_ opinions, interpretations and past actions. Earl P. Jones (who has visited Germany, roomed with a German, and ought to know better) ###### From: Anthony Bryant Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The dream /Das Traum? / der Traum! Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:31:05 -0500 Organization: Nortel Information Network Lines: 12 Message-ID: <347CDB61.3E44@socantel.net> References: <34694667.1523945@news.usit.net> <19971115061201.BAA11478@ladder02.news.aol.com> <3476bfc0.543452102@news.pacbell.net> <347B9E9C.227BCDE9@fen.baynet.de> <01bcfa76$c0e74c40$157471d2@Earl.kornet.nm.kr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.10.10.6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-AICK1-2 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Cache-Post-Path: nntpcache2.nortel.net!unknown@firewall.socantel.net Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!137.118.1.39!news-feed.nortel.net!news.nortel.net!not-for-mail Earl P. Jones wrote: > ...... how I have interpreted "Traum" when I have heard it used in the > SCA context. It suggests a mindset in which there is but One True Way > which _must_ be imposed on everyone by whatever means necessary. It also > suggests extreme opposition to that mindset on the part of the speaker. That's always been my understanding. Edward "A Dream to some; a nightmare to others" --- Merlin, in the film "Excalibur" ###### Path: aetna.dolphins.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The Dream/Das Traum -- was Re: Why the sca is looked down upon Date: 26 Nov 1997 23:56:09 +0100 Organization: Dolphins Network Systems Lines: 71 Message-ID: References: <34694667.1523945@news.usit.net> <19971115061201.BAA11478@ladder02.news.aol.com> <3476bfc0.543452102@news.pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.192.233.120 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Xref: aetna.dolphins.ch rec.org.sca:76420 Bryan J. Maloney> "It's not the 'Dream' that I object to so much as it is the 'the' William> Hmmm . . . Maybe that's why I have heard Hilary and Fleeg refer "The" Dream as "Das Tram' (sic??) a time or two . . . Lysander> Das Tram? I'd understand if they'd said 'Das Traum'... but referring to an open railway streetcar in the German neuter case doesn't make any sense... German linguistic remark 1: 'Das Tram' (the tramway car) refers to ALL streetcars, not just open top ones. German linguistic remark 2: 'Das' is neuter gender (not case!) for 'the', and is therefore propper for 'Tram', which is neuter. Frederick (Flieg) Hollander> Yep -- it doesn't, which is why Hilary and I (and several others) did refer to the use of "The Dream" to suppress dissent as 'Das Traum'. ("ein ... ein Traum"). Yes that makes more sense this way. Allways those pesky Typos:-) Wolfgang vom Bruch> If I am not absolutely mistaken :-) it's "der Traum" (ein Traum) - German linguistic remark 3: It is 'Der Traum', because that word has masculine gender. The whole 'der'/'die'/'das' ('the' in masculine/feminine/neuter gender) issue is shurely one of the worst aspects of german language for foreigners trying to understand it, as I did 25 years ago and Wolfgang seems to be in mid of doing now. Wolfgang vom Bruch> and could anybody please enlighten me where the differences in the meaning of the words "dream" (English) and "Traum" (German) lie. I always thought they meant nearly the same. Michael H. Gartner> No difference Wolfgang except this: The term in english has taken on an extended, and many ways undefinable, meaning for people in the SCA. German linguistic remark 4: 'Traum' simply means 'dream', exactly, in both of its meanings (that what you do at night and in 'I have a dream'). 'SCA - the dream' is a special case of 'I have a dream', so it is covered by 'Traum'. It's special meaning is culture-related and not language-related, I would use 'SCA - Der Traum' in a SCA conversation held in german. Michael H. Gartner> I'm not certain why they would use Traum instead of dream, perhaps someone would enlighten us. See Fredericks remark above: To make the difference between 'dreaming' and 'forcing your dream'. Easy to missunderstand, therefore not a recommended usage of words, particularly on Usenet:-). Michael H. Gartner> I sometimes think of the SCA as "der Alptraum", nicht Wahr? Why 'Alptraum' (night mare)? What is so scary about the SCA? Michael H. Gartner> Universitaet Leipzig That shows how backward we are here (in Switzerland), even the 'Ossies' who only deleted communism 7 years ago, are in the SCA, we are not yet:-(. Does that remind me of the mundane map of Europe (EU)? Well, I am setting out to change that (SCA wise, not EU wise), when the mail answer from the Chatelain comes back. Neil Franklin, not-yet-SCAdian, entering the dream/Traum soon. P.S: if this post craps, its the first in this computers life. Don't use reply, use the address below. This News-poster is crap. -- Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: Jeder Computer, der optimal laeuft, ist veraltet; auch mein 486er ###### From: Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The dream /Das Traum? / der Traum! Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:44:48 +0100 Organization: Uni Leipzig Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <34694667.1523945@news.usit.net> <19971115061201.BAA11478@ladder02.news.aol.com> <3476bfc0.543452102@news.pacbell.net> <347B9E9C.227BCDE9@fen.baynet.de> <01bcfa76$c0e74c40$157471d2@Earl.kornet.nm.kr> NNTP-Posting-Host: studserv.uni-leipzig.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE In-Reply-To: <01bcfa76$c0e74c40$157471d2@Earl.kornet.nm.kr> Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-was.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news.uni-leipzig.de!studserv.uni-leipzig.de!ges95kll On 26 Nov 1997, Earl P. Jones wrote: > I have to confess that I have occasionally (at least to myself, and > possibly to others) used the German language in a non-German context to > evoke connotations of the Nazi regime as a prototypical rigid dictatorshi= p. > It's an ugly stereotype and completely unfair to most Germans (excepting > those who _are_ Nazis), but it does exist. I cannot speak for anyone els= e, > but this is how I have interpreted "Traum" when I have heard it used in t= he > SCA context. It suggests a mindset in which there is but One True Way > which _must_ be imposed on everyone by whatever means necessary. It also > suggests extreme opposition to that mindset on the part of the speaker. > I apologize to anyone who is offended by this, and re-emphasize that I am > only speaking of _MY_OWN_ opinions, interpretations and past actions. Naja...I'm not certain how, or if, I can reply to this comment. =20 Wolfgang? Michael H. Gartner Universitaet Leipzig, Deutschland ***************************************************************************= *** Nu ist der kleinen vogel=EEne singen und der liehten bluomen sch=EEn vil ga= r zerg=E2n wolde ein w=EEp mir liebez ende bringen, mir waer, als ichs immer b=EAde so= lde h=E2n, diu mich ir gen=E2den ie verz=EAch von kindes beine; doch bit ich die guoten, dazs ir triuwe an mir erscheine, m=EEnes herzen k=FCneginne ich meine.=09-Neidhart von Reuental ***************************************************************************= *** ###### From: Anthony Bryant Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The dream /Das Traum? / der Traum! Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:27:15 -0500 Organization: Nortel Information Network Lines: 15 Message-ID: <347DF378.3118@socantel.net> References: <347B9E9C.227BCDE9@fen.baynet.de> <880665522.1360snx@spis.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.10.10.6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-AICK1-2 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Cache-Post-Path: nntpcache2.nortel.net!unknown@firewall.socantel.net Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!137.118.1.39!news-feed.nortel.net!news.nortel.net!not-for-mail SPIS & NZ Science Monthly wrote: > > > I thought it was a echo of > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" > ("Ein Traum"?) > > Of course, I could be wrong, but that was the association that came to mind > when I first heard it. I always thought of it in terms of "Das Kapital" ... Edward ###### From: nzsm@spis.co.nz (SPIS & NZ Science Monthly) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The dream /Das Traum? / der Traum! Message-ID: <880665522.1360snx@spis.co.nz> References: <347B9E9C.227BCDE9@fen.baynet.de> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 97 21:18:42 GMT Organization: South Pacific Information Services Ltd Lines: 19 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!innfeed.telstra.net!nsw.news.telstra.net!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!munnari.OZ.AU!comp.vuw.ac.nz!news.hn.netlink.co.nz!southern.co.nz!spis!nzsm In article <347B9E9C.227BCDE9@fen.baynet.de> ea1533@fen.baynet.de writes: > >If I am not absolutely mistaken :-) it's "der Traum" (ein Traum) - and >could anybody please enlighten me where the differences in the meaning >of the words "dream" (English) and "Traum" (German) lie. I always >thought they meant nearly the same. I thought it was a echo of "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" ("Ein Traum"?) Of course, I could be wrong, but that was the association that came to mind when I first heard it. Ulf -- "Gimme gimme gimme Fried Chicken." -- Queen, "One Vision"