From: Blackberry Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 14 Jul 2000 08:10:29 -0700 Organization: Europa.com Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-629.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!edrn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12275 New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of all that crap. What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your favorite RPGs? Hero: 1) Takes some effort and add-on rules to scale well at low power levels 2) An entire city could be leveled in one minute of combat (with blows, knockback, explosions, etc.) 3) Piling on power limitations can lead to characters with much more power than you thought GURPS: 1) The system leans heavily on 2 of the 4 attributes 2) Skill costs are artificial and are balanced against each other but not necessarily against reality 3) Combat is deadly -------------------- "It's enough to make you wonder sometimes if you're on the right planet." -- Frankie Goes to Hollywood Brian -- lepus@europa.com -- http://www.europa.com/~lepus ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:28:27 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 42 Message-ID: <396F319B.1F187CE0@myriad.net> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 2000 17:19:29 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!news-feeds.jump.net!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12247 > Blackberry wrote in message > news:8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com... > > New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of all that > crap. > > > What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your favorite RPGs? > Shadowrun: 1) Difficulty 6 and 7 identical due to poor choices in dice mechanism. 2) A skill of 1 in anything is pretty well useless; defaulting to a stat is usually better, and there are no rules for mixing the two results- you either default to a stat OR use your skill. They aren't complementary. 3) Some skills are divided too finely- there's a Build/Repair skill for each weapon skill, for example. And (4) Wired reflexes no longer lets you kill 4-5 non-wired foes before any of them get an action! *Sob* Darn 3rd Edition! Amber: 1) Value of ranks (ie- what they can do) will vary immensely from one GM to another. 2) Rulebook suggests depicting the elder Amberites as unbeatable godlings compared to the PCs. 3) Suggests giving characters extra points (up to +10% of starting total, generally) if their players contribute extra effort to the campaign by recording logs or drawing pictures of PCs. Not _always_ a good idea, and some suggestions (like the logs) really ought to be worth a lot _more_ points than they are. Call of Cthulhu: 1) Rules for first aid silly. 2) San system doesn't do all that great of a job of duplicating the source material- experienced occultists are _more_ likely to go mad when faced with unspeakable monsters than people who've never seen them before, which doesn't match some stories (especially "The Dunwich Horror"). 3) They made some questionable decisions as to what stories should be 'canon' as far as the setting goes. (ie- I disagree, strongly) Kiz ###### From: "Art Wendorf" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:10:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.28.141.118 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.austin.rr.com 963591020 24.28.141.118 (Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:10:20 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:10:20 CDT Organization: Road Runner - Texas Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone.austin.rr.com!cyclone2.austin.rr.com!typhoon.austin.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12332 "Blackberry" wrote ... > New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of > all that crap. > > What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your > favorite RPGs? > > Hero: >> snip << > GURPS: >> snip << Um, You only listed two. Is this some kind of test? What's the deal? Do you expect me to make up the last one? What if I'm wrong? I can't handle being wrong. Why are you putting this all on my shoulders??? I can't take the pressure! Aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!! -- --Art "Clueless" Wendorf I've come to the realization that Steve is Blue's Familiar. Maybe I *am* trapped in the house with a two-year old too much. ###### From: "pblock" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:40:42 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12305 "Art Wendorf" wrote ... > "Blackberry" wrote ... > > New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of > > all that crap. > > > > What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your > > favorite RPGs? > > > > Hero: > > >> snip << > > > GURPS: > > >> snip << > > Um, You only listed two. Is this some kind of test? What's the deal? Do you > expect me to make up the last one? What if I'm wrong? I can't handle being > wrong. Why are you putting this all on my shoulders??? I can't take the > pressure! Aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!! > > -- > --Art "Clueless" Wendorf No, he listed the top 3 worst features of two RPGs. Pick a favorite RPG of yours and list the top 3 worst features of them. >sheesh< ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 71 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:50:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: news22.bellglobal.com 963593426 204.101.128.170 (Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:50:26 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:50:26 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news22.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12328 Blackberry wrote in message news:8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com... > New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of all that crap. > What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your favorite RPGs? Silhouette (e.g. Heavy Gear, et al): 1) Small range of attributes and skills doesn't provide for much character differentiation between characters of similar kind. 2) Pricing for attributes and skills is bad. Resolution mechanism gives diminishing returns for higher values. Costing mechanism increases costs dramatically exactly in synch with greatly diminished returns. (The practical upshot is that you'd have to be insane or ignorant to take a skill at higher than 3.) 3) The dice mechanism has bizarre odds and overbalances strongly in favour of attributes over skill. CORPS: 1) Game does not provide good mechanism for dealing with creatures yet. 2) Very... concise... writing leads to rules which are difficult for many to follow. (The rules themselves are simple enough. The presentation just sucks.) 3) It is easy to make characters of similar type and with identical costs but which vary greatly in overall capability. (It shares this trait with GURPS, but is nowhere near as bad as GURPS is in this regard.) FUDGE: 1) Very coarse rating scales leading to limited character differentiation between similar characters. 2) Highly amorphous blob of a game. For "thought experiment" and/or free-form games it is fine, but for more serious endeavours it needs rules hacking. 3) Mentioning it as a serious game seems to generate flamewars for no particularly apparent reason. Puppetland: 1) A very dark tone limits its general appeal. (I *STILL* can't recruit players, although I love the game dearly.) 2) Limited scope of game as provided relegates it to limited campaigning. (This may or may not be a flaw depending on what you're looking for.) 3) Calling it a role-playing game in some circles causes random muscle twitches in the knee. Alternity: 1) No longer published. This makes recruiting players more difficult. 2) Several superficial game mechanisms were thrown in as a bone to the D&D crowd. (Classes and levels. Standard races in a "generic" SF game. Oddball level progression rules.) This makes it unpopular with those who don't like D&D and who didn't read past the terminology. It was also unpopular with the "I don't want to try anything new" D&D crowd because it wasn't D&D. 3) The rules were rather long-winded given how simple they actually are. It was perceived as being far more complex than it really was. Everway: 1) No longer published (by any practical measure). 2) Its "politically correct" setting and support material turns some potential players off. 3) The magic system as provided is so badly defined that it boils down to "do whatever you like". (This is in contrast to the powers system which is actually rather elegant.) Fading Suns: 1) The multiple-indirect die-rolling resolution system is slow and interferes with game play. 2) Character generation in the second edition isn't very well explained. 3) The damage rules are broken in all editions. (The second edition at least only involves rolling many d6s instead of many d20s.) ###### From: "Art Wendorf" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 44 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:55:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.28.141.118 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.austin.rr.com 963597301 24.28.141.118 (Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:55:01 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:55:01 CDT Organization: Road Runner - Texas Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone.austin.rr.com!cyclone2.austin.rr.com!typhoon.austin.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12333 "pblock" wrote ... > > "Art Wendorf" wrote ... > > "Blackberry" wrote ... > > > New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of > > > all that crap. > > > > > > What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your > > > favorite RPGs? > > > > > > Hero: > > > > >> snip << > > > > > GURPS: > > > > >> snip << > > > > Um, You only listed two. Is this some kind of test? What's the deal? > > Do you expect me to make up the last one? What if I'm wrong? I can't > > handle being wrong. Why are you putting this all on my shoulders??? > > I can't take the pressure! Aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!! > > No, he listed the top 3 worst features of two RPGs. Pick a favorite RPG of > yours and list the top 3 worst features of them. > > >sheesh< What? I'm suppose to have some sort of reading comprehension ability? Is this a test? How come it's just me? Why is everyone allways picking on me? Oh, Oooooooh!! [Okay, fine. So, I'm an idiot. And actually quite embarrassed that I missed what he actually said the first time. I think I'll shut up now. ;) ] Damn, I hate it when I live up to my nickname. -- --Art "Clueless" Wendorf I've come to the realization that Steve is Blue's Familiar. Maybe I *am* trapped in the house with a two-year old too much. ###### From: "unterhund" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:44:21 -0600 Organization: ArosNet Internet Services Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8knn5c$1qeg$1@news.aros.net> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> Reply-To: "unterhund" NNTP-Posting-Host: pcpatc.censoft.com X-Trace: news.aros.net 963600364 59856 208.219.23.51 (14 Jul 2000 18:46:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@aros.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 2000 18:46:04 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!xmission!news.aros.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12272 "Blackberry" wrote in message news:8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com... > New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of all that crap. > > What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your favorite RPGs? Risus: 1) PDF is laid out for 8.5x11 paper, requiring ClickBooks or something similar to fit the printout into my planner. 2) 6d30 are cumbersome to carry around for the high-powered Clichés. 3) Not enough problems with the system to complain about. GURPS: 1) The GM part of my brain can't get a handle on Bunnies and Burrows, but no one in my area is currently running it, so I can't play. 2) Does not scale well over about 200 points for my taste. 3) Too many excellent sourcebooks and not enough free cash. Extreme Vengeance: 1) Too cartoony for real campaigning. 2) Out of print. 3) Starting characters have nowhere near enough Guts to waste 100 Extras, the way Arnie does in "Commando." -- Patrick Clark unterhund@mailcity.com http://unterhund.8m.com ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:03:22 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 88 Message-ID: <396F63FA.A0AF1D5E@myriad.net> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <396F319B.1F187CE0@myriad.net> <396F6B6F.4977840E@research.bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 2000 20:54:24 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!news-feeds.jump.net!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12359 Graham Wills wrote: > > "Frank T. Sronce" wrote: > > > Call of Cthulhu: > > 1) Rules for first aid silly. > > 2) San system doesn't do all that great of a job of duplicating the > > source material- experienced occultists are _more_ likely to go mad when > > faced with unspeakable monsters than people who've never seen them > > before, which doesn't match some stories (especially "The Dunwich > > Horror"). > > 3) They made some questionable decisions as to what stories should be > > 'canon' as far as the setting goes. (ie- I disagree, strongly) > > Funnily enough CoC would be one of my favorite systems and > I have a completely different set of three problem areas - and > I disagree *strongly* with Frank's ones! The first aid rules seem > at least adequate considering the level of detail of injury and > skills in general. My reading of the rules is that occultists are > *already* insane and so summoning more unspeakable horrors can't > do more harm to them, and I *like* the canon they chose (I'm curious > Frank - did you want more non-Lovecraftian, or less?) > Well, my primary objection to the first aid rules is the fact that it takes only one combat round to use. There's a matching rule about mortally wounded characters that says that they die if first aid isn't applied within one combat round (and it has to bring them up above zero HP, but that's fine with me). This makes ambulances a wee bit useless ("He's dying! Call a... no, never mind. He kicked off."). :-) But my own version uses pretty much the same rules and just expands the time frame to a reasonable level. The "Occultists are all insane anyway" bit is fine if you don't mind having some brave & helpful 0-San NPCs. The three occultists in "The Dunwich Horror" face off with an invisible critter, reveal its true form, and banish it. They're all fine afterwards, but the local yokel who caught a glimpse of its true form is a gibbering idiot. :-) Personally I used some house rules about high POW increasing the amount of Sanity you had to lose before going temporarily insane. I _like_ the sanity rules, but I think if you want occultists to be practical characters (as you mention below), you need to be more generous with San recovery and tweak the San rules a bit. As far as the stuff I object to, it's mostly Lumley's Dreamlands stuff, particularly the bits that directly contradict Lovecraft's writing. > The three worst features of CoC for me are: > > 1) Need a solid mechanic for degree of difficulty, not just > commonly used ad-hoc rules. True enough. It's a rules-light enough system that you can usually just wing it, but it would be nice to have some guidelines to fall back on (1/2 skill in darkness, -50% skill when only an expert could succeed at all, whatever). > 2) Too hard for characters to play more than 2-3 scenarios without > long out-of-play times recovering sanity (I see no way around it, > though) Yep, as written it's very unforgiving. For my last CoC campaign I modified it a bit and said that you only lost San for a critter 1) the first time you saw one, and 2) when you were in serious danger from it. That was important since the PCs were _all_ mages and had numerous Summon & Bind spells... if you lose 1d6 _additional_ San every time you call up and order around a Nightgaunt, it gets pretty silly... especially when doing so is a routine task because you've done it so many times. > 3) I just don't like Dreamlands, both the concept and the execution. > Ah, well, not everyone is gifted with good taste. :-) Personally, I adore it and based my "Children of the Worm" CoC campaign entirely in Earth's Dreamlands. I used Myers and Lovecraft as canon, though, and ignored all the Lumley stuff. I wanted a dangerous and exotic Dreamlands, not a silly one. :-) Kiz > - Graham ###### From: Graham Wills Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:35:11 -0500 Organization: Bell Laboratories Lines: 64 Message-ID: <396F6B6F.4977840E@research.bell-labs.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <396F319B.1F187CE0@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: twitch.research.bell-labs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4F5DBDC8D512A1130C2EF9C4" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73C-SGI [en] (X11; U; IRIX64 6.5 IP30) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!207.24.196.41!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12411 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4F5DBDC8D512A1130C2EF9C4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Frank T. Sronce" wrote: > Call of Cthulhu: > 1) Rules for first aid silly. > 2) San system doesn't do all that great of a job of duplicating the > source material- experienced occultists are _more_ likely to go mad when > faced with unspeakable monsters than people who've never seen them > before, which doesn't match some stories (especially "The Dunwich > Horror"). > 3) They made some questionable decisions as to what stories should be > 'canon' as far as the setting goes. (ie- I disagree, strongly) Funnily enough CoC would be one of my favorite systems and I have a completely different set of three problem areas - and I disagree *strongly* with Frank's ones! The first aid rules seem at least adequate considering the level of detail of injury and skills in general. My reading of the rules is that occultists are *already* insane and so summoning more unspeakable horrors can't do more harm to them, and I *like* the canon they chose (I'm curious Frank - did you want more non-Lovecraftian, or less?) The three worst features of CoC for me are: 1) Need a solid mechanic for degree of difficulty, not just commonly used ad-hoc rules. 2) Too hard for characters to play more than 2-3 scenarios without long out-of-play times recovering sanity (I see no way around it, though) 3) I just don't like Dreamlands, both the concept and the execution. - Graham -- Graham Wills Data Visualization, Bell Labs gwills@research.bell-labs.com +1 (630) 979 7338 http://www.bell-labs.com/~gwills Silk for Calde! --------------4F5DBDC8D512A1130C2EF9C4 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="gwills.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Graham Wills Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="gwills.vcf" begin:vcard n:Wills;Graham x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Bell Laboratories;Software Production (Visualization Group) adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:gwills@research.bell-labs.com title:Member of Technical Staff note;quoted-printable:Internal: www-spr.research.bell-labs.com/~gwills=0D=0AExternal: www.bell-labs.com/~gwills=0D=0APersonal: willsfamily.org x-mozilla-cpt:;9408 fn:Graham Wills end:vcard --------------4F5DBDC8D512A1130C2EF9C4-- ###### From: Mike Harvey Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:59:18 -0700 Organization: Intel Corporation Lines: 38 Message-ID: <396F7116.FBF5DEE2@intel.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mharvey.jf.intel.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!208.201.224.154!typhoon.sonic.net!uunet!sac.uu.net!sea.uu.net!news.or.intel.com!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12353 Blackberry wrote: > > New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of all that crap. > > What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your favorite RPGs? FUDGE 1) Seductively elegant mechanics make me want to convert everything else to Fudge! They also tempt me to modify, tweak, adjust, and add to the rules unnecessarily, because it is so easy. 2) Too free and loose to act as a springboard for my imagination. I am more creative when given boundaries and limitations to overcome or work within. 3) No real nostalgia Basic D&D 1) Out of print 2) Rules are somewhat clunky and limited (did I say a mouthful?) 3) 1st level characters are usually dead, or soon will be Fantasy Hero 1) OCV/DCV makes combat complicated (though it is very flexible) 2) Speed makes combat even more complicated and a tad funky 3) Character creation is so flexible that everyone makes "freaks" GURPS 1) Too many rules 2) Stat/skill system broken 3) Combat is slooooow 4) Magic system is too limiting 5) Too many rules 6) Too deadly 7) Dice mechanic is weird 8) Did I mention too many rules? [oops, got carried away... I really do like enough things about GURPS to call it a favorite, just one that drives me batty!] Mike ###### From: Blackberry Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 14 Jul 2000 13:13:06 -0700 Organization: Europa.com Lines: 36 Message-ID: <8kns8i$9tg@edrn.newsguy.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-358.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!edrn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12386 In article , "Art says... > >"Blackberry" wrote ... >> New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of >> all that crap. >> >> What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your >> favorite RPGs? >> >> Hero: > >>> snip << > >> GURPS: > >>> snip << > >Um, You only listed two. [...] Yes. I listed two *games*. Three *features* each. :) Here's a third, so I've now listed my 3 worst features of my 3 favorite RPGs: RuneQuest: 1) Sorcery has never worked. 2) It's possible to take 20 arrows through the hand and still be fine (except for your hand). 3) In Glorantha, anyone who's made Rune-level is vastly above anyone at Initiate or Lay Member level in terms of power; a mixed party of Rune-levels and non-Rune-levels is almost unworkable. -------------------- "It's enough to make you wonder sometimes if you're on the right planet." -- Frankie Goes to Hollywood Brian -- lepus@europa.com -- http://www.europa.com/~lepus ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 51 Message-ID: <5PMb5.635$f6.184135@ralph.vnet.net> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:50:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 963615041 166.82.1.7 (Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:50:41 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:50:41 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12387 Bunnies & Burrows: 1. Not popular enough. 2. Class/Level based (fortunately it plays superbly in Fudge). 3. Out of print, and I can't publish it in Fudge. :-( Tunnels & Trolls: 1. Combat system. 2. Class/Level based. 3. No skill system. GURPS: 1. Fosters bad attitudes in many of its players and detractors. 2. Most of the added-on rules. 3. Link between attributes and skills. 4. No simple Scale rules. Prince Valiant: 1. Out of print. 2. Binary system instead of Fudge dice. 3. No support material. Fudge: 1. It was too much work to write. 2. I never made any money off it. 3. People still want me to write more for no money. SLUG: 1. No diceless rules. 2. Not popular enough. 3. Too long. Sherpa: 1. Too complex. 2. Needs a better combat system. 3. Not popular enough. Paranoia: 1. It's not in Fudge. 2. The computer is your friend. 3. No, Friend Computer, I didn't mean that as a bad thing. Lost Souls: 1. 90% of the system sucks. 2. They didn't carry the idea far enough. 3. I can't find the owners to buy the rights to do it correctly. -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | "It is folly to expect men to do all that sos@vnet.net | they may reasonably be expected to do." Plymouth, NH, USA | -Archbishop Whately of Dublin www.io.com/~sos | (1864) ###### X-Originating-Host: 206.17.88.100 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 50 From: Ham Salad Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <24bf4534.0520aa8b@usw-ex0107-055.remarq.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> Bytes: 1867 X-Wren-Trace: eOjN5eT9uvC7oMPz7KTo5drz9/ng7aHyo+fo5qGuof6pv/+nvvCzt7S5 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:22:07 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.55 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 963617769 10.0.2.55 (Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:36:09 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:36:09 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12416 Blackberry wrote: >New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of all that crap. > >What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your favorite RPGs? Blood of Heroes: 1) The art sucks really really really really really bad. 2) The example characters suck really really really really bad. 3) The rules Pulsar added to DCH suck really really really bad. I understand two out of three will be fixed in the Special Edition. Master Book: 1) It's tricky to add things like magic or super-powers without having to spend a lot of time on abuse prevention. 2) It's very important to understand how the card play affects scenario design. 3) Nobody I know besides me likes it. :( Hero System: 1) You have to sit and design almost every freaking piece of every setting you might want to use, because nearly every example in a suppliment that doesn't come out of Gold Rush Games is useless self-indulgent twaddle. 2) It takes forever to train some morons that you aren't going to allow their favorite brain-dead rule misinterpretation just because they can expound on it for six hours straight. 3) You can't buy a Charater Generator for it for the Mac, Let alone Linux. What's Character Cremator written in, anyhow? Aberrant: 1) The fact that White Wolf actually produced a game worth playing has severly damaged my tenuous hold on reality. 2) In the typical modern fashion, WW starts by selling you just enough to barely get started, then holds out another chunk to tempt you to part with another chunk of change every six months. 3) Quantum Pool is too expensive! Want more! Waahhhh! The terribly mature, Ham Salad ----------------------------------------------------------- Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com ###### X-Originating-Host: 213.237.18.184 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 47 From: metal-dog Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <058d7bf4.bbc418a6@usw-ex0105-038.remarq.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <24bf4534.0520aa8b@usw-ex0107-055.remarq.com> Bytes: 1436 X-Wren-Trace: eAwpAQAZXhRfQR0QCEBAAREYPBMNBkkOBAEKA0sbGkFDWB1eTB5KVU5cUEdTFEs= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:51:27 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.38 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 963626730 10.0.2.38 (Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:05:30 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:05:30 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12419 Allright, here we go: Megatraveller: 1: It's no longer in print 2: Not all of the alien sourcebooks got published before it went out of print. 3: The "Brownie-point" system only gives Brownie points to military types. I suppose i should have mentioned the enormous number of typos, but they were all corrected in the 3rd printing. HERO: 1: Increasing a character's reaction speed (SPD) will also increase his movement speed dramatically. Often more than if the same number of points were spent on running. 2: Combat skill levels cost too much compared to simply increasing one's DEX. 3: A character with poor or even average DEX will soon die. Lords of Creation: 1:The rules make absolutely no sense. 2:It's out of print. 3:It's very difficult to convert it to any other system. Underground: 1: The rules require the GM to make so many dice rolls, it becomes too physically demanding. 2: The character creation process is too time-consuming. 3: It doesn't just use the same scale as DC-Heroes. Chill: 1:It's out of print. Wah! 2:There's too much math involved in calculating one's skill scores. 3: There are too few skill levels, causing characters in long-running campaigns to hoard outrageous amounts of skill points. ----------------------------------------------------------- Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com ###### From: bbank@megsinet.net (Bryan Bankhead) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Message-ID: References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> Lines: 17 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:01:04 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.81.164.214 X-Trace: news.corecomm.net 963626233 209.81.164.214 (Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:57:13 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:57:13 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news.megsinet.net.MISMATCH!news.corecomm.net!tnt1a-214.columbus.corecomm.net!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12369 In article <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com>, Blackberry wrote: > New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of all that crap. > > What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your favorite RPGs? Kult: 1. Combat System too complex for a philosphical horror game. The martial arts rules are as elaborate as 'Feng Shui'. 2. Guns,Guns,Guns! Part of the book actually looks like a firearms catalog 3. Character Archetypes seem more suited to 'Feng Shui'. None of the above should be construed as a knock on the Really Neat 'Feng Shui', a game really good at doing what it set out to do, but KULT isn't that kind of game at all and too much of the book doesn't realize that. ###### From: "Rusty" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kns8i$9tg@edrn.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:32:30 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <396fd3f5$0$27055@echo-01.iinet.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.77.139 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 963630069 27055 1pkjyj@203.59.77.139 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12396 > Here's a third, so I've now listed my 3 worst features of my 3 favorite RPGs: > > RuneQuest: > 1) Sorcery has never worked. > 2) It's possible to take 20 arrows through the hand and still be fine (except > for your hand). How so? There are bleeding rules. And if you have your hand cut off in RL and still be OK (maybe a little shock and blood loss). Are you saying someone should be killed by having arrows shoot through already dead tissue? > 3) In Glorantha, anyone who's made Rune-level is vastly above anyone at Initiate > or Lay Member level in terms of power; a mixed party of Rune-levels and > non-Rune-levels is almost unworkable. No argument there, except you seem to be focussing on the combat side of things (which RQ certainly does too). Rusty ###### From: Lizard Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:41:52 -0700 Organization: Ferengi School Of Business Ethics Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <24bf4534.0520aa8b@usw-ex0107-055.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-002.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12432 On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:22:07 -0700, Ham Salad wrote: >Hero System: >3) You can't buy a Charater Generator for it for the Mac, Let >alone Linux. What's Character Cremator written in, anyhow? > Logo. :) I still use Heromaker in preferance to Creation Workshop. >Aberrant: >1) The fact that White Wolf actually produced a game worth >playing has severly damaged my tenuous hold on reality. Yup. Spooky. >2) In the typical modern fashion, WW starts by selling you just >enough to barely get started, then holds out another chunk to >tempt you to part with another chunk of change every six months. Shrug. I find they give you more than enough setting info to get you started. The only thing really missing from the core rules, possibly STILL missing, is 'techno heroes' -- which really don't fit in the setting, unless they borrow a page from Wild Cards and have gadgeteers make devices which work only for them, because they BELIEVE they do. *----------------------------------------------------* Evolution doesn't take prisoners:Lizard "I've heard of this thing men call 'empathy', but I've never once been afflicted with it, thanks the Gods." Bruno The Bandit http://www.mrlizard.com ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 15 Jul 2000 05:19:56 GMT References: <8kns8i$9tg@edrn.newsguy.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000715011956.11492.00000128@ng-fw1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12394 D&D's a favorite, but I think we're all familiar with its problems by now. So some others- DC HEROES 1) Alright, just how exactly are you supposed to create a gadget-heavy hero like Batman? 2) Coarse on the low end of the scale, in terms of attributes. 3) Supplements frequently skimp on physical description of the heroes/villains and their costumes, so if you can't find the relevant comic you're out of luck. (I had this problem with "The Belle Reve Sourcebook", the SUICIDE SQUAD supplement.) TOP SECRET (original, not S/I which I don't have) 1) No unified mechanic whatsoever. And you thought D&D was cobbled together...... 2) Character attributes are a bit too high if you want realistic campaigns. 3) The non-random contact reaction chart. Though it does encourage roleplaying because otherwise it's rather difficult to get information... STAR WARS 1) 2nd edition dumped some of the best templates, including "Retired Imperial Captain". 2) Starting characters are indeed a touch too weak. 3) Underdeveloped material regarding Jedi training. Screw canon- if Luke gets to be the first of the new Jedi Knights, one of my characters gets to be the second! ###### From: "Mitch Wilson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <24bf4534.0520aa8b@usw-ex0107-055.remarq.com> <058d7bf4.bbc418a6@usw-ex0105-038.remarq.com> Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 06:45:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.142.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.bnapk1.occa.home.com 963643527 24.9.142.67 (Fri, 14 Jul 2000 23:45:27 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 23:45:27 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.bnapk1.occa.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12427 > Lords of Creation: > 1:The rules make absolutely no sense. Please elaborate. I recently picked up a copy (and all the modules - 3 total?) and was planning on attempting to run the game in the near future. I owned a copy when it first came out, never played it, then sold it - but I was always intrigued by it. ###### From: Walt Smith Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:59:23 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8kpu85$9va$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <396F319B.1F187CE0@myriad.net> <396F6B6F.4977840E@research.bell-labs.com> <396F63FA.A0AF1D5E@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 147.205.85.122 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Jul 15 14:59:23 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x63.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 147.205.85.122 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDfirelock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12379 In article <396F63FA.A0AF1D5E@myriad.net>, "Frank T. Sronce" wrote: > That was important since the PCs were _all_ mages and had numerous > Summon & Bind spells... if you lose 1d6 _additional_ San every time > you call up and order around a Nightgaunt, it gets pretty silly... > especially when doing so is a routine task because you've done it so > many times. > ISTR a rule in CoC that if you had made your SAN roll against a particular creature type as many times as the maximum SAN loss for encountering that creature, you became immune to losing SAN from that kind of creature. Was this from a later edition? "Cthulu? Seen him a hundred times, he's no problem for me anymore..." Walt Smith -- Firelock on DALNet Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Walt Smith Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 15:09:20 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <8kpuqo$ab9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <24bf4534.0520aa8b@usw-ex0107-055.remarq.com> <058d7bf4.bbc418a6@usw-ex0105-038.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 147.205.85.122 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Jul 15 15:09:20 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x63.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 147.205.85.122 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDfirelock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12383 In article , "Mitch Wilson" wrote: > > > Lords of Creation: > > 1:The rules make absolutely no sense. > > Please elaborate. I recently picked up a copy (and all the modules - 3 > total?) and was planning on attempting to run the game in the near future. > I owned a copy when it first came out, never played it, then sold it - but I > was always intrigued by it. > > I still have a list somewhere of the photo album my international detective/jewel thief put together during our short Lords of Creation campaign. Our Group and the Eleven Dwarves, The Captain of the Flying Dutchman, The Attack of the Cyborg Dogs, a Wizard's Tower, the Wizard from the Wizard's Tower (one of those silly shots where you take a picture of someone who is taking a picture of you), a Band of Friendly Pirates, a UFO, the Walking Stone Heads...geez, I can't even remember it all. It was quite a romp. I blame my GM and fellow players. Walt Smith -- Firelock on DALNet Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Peter Knutsen Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 20:29:55 +0200 Organization: http://www.knutsen.dk Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3970ADA3.C6409ACF@knutsen.dk> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kns8i$9tg@edrn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: msx-esp-3a-9.ppp.cybercity.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.cybercity.dk 963685780 75312 212.242.17.202 (15 Jul 2000 18:29:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cybercity.dk NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 2000 18:29:40 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.cybercity.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12358 Blackberry wrote: > Here's a third, so I've now listed my 3 worst features of my 3 favorite RPGs: > > RuneQuest: > 1) Sorcery has never worked. Can't comment on that. > 2) It's possible to take 20 arrows through the hand and still be fine (except > for your hand). What's the problem with that? In reality you'd loose a little bit of blood, but you'd still be able to walk if you could cope with the pain. > 3) In Glorantha, anyone who's made Rune-level is vastly above anyone at Initiate > or Lay Member level in terms of power; a mixed party of Rune-levels and > non-Rune-levels is almost unworkable. That is not a *bad* feature (as in "bug"), it's a realism that is true for most RPG rules systems, which is a good thing. > Brian -- lepus@europa.com -- http://www.europa.com/~lepus -- Peter Knutsen ###### From: Peter Knutsen Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 20:29:57 +0200 Organization: http://www.knutsen.dk Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3970ADA5.93A7BE59@knutsen.dk> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: msx-esp-3a-9.ppp.cybercity.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.cybercity.dk 963685782 75312 212.242.17.202 (15 Jul 2000 18:29:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cybercity.dk NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 2000 18:29:42 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.cybercity.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12357 Blackberry wrote: > GURPS: > 1) The system leans heavily on 2 of the 4 attributes > 2) Skill costs are artificial and are balanced against each other but not > necessarily against reality > 3) Combat is deadly #3 is not a "bad feature". Also I'm not sure if I agree with the specifics of #2, but the skill system is problematic. #1 is true although I'd say the problem is that GURPS only has 4 attributes. #1 is also damn hard to fix, to fix it you'd have to reconstruct the whole GURPS system, and then you might as well make your own system from scratch. #2 leans on #1, although it might be easier to fix than #1. > Brian -- lepus@europa.com -- http://www.europa.com/~lepus -- Peter Knutsen ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 16 Jul 2000 00:32:49 GMT References: <3970ADA3.C6409ACF@knutsen.dk> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000715203249.10940.00000851@ng-cn1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12479 << > 2) It's possible to take 20 arrows through the hand and still be fine (except > for your hand). What's the problem with that? In reality you'd loose a little bit of blood, but you'd still be able to walk if you could cope with the pain. >> I'm just a bit curious as to how 20 arrows could fit in your hand. I mean, each arrowhead has to take up a certain amount of space....... ###### From: Kevin J. Maroney Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:29:00 -0400 Organization: Crossover Technologies Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kns8i$9tg@edrn.newsguy.com> <3970ADA3.C6409ACF@knutsen.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ac8fca8e.ipt.aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.panix.com 963718109 10291 172.143.202.142 (16 Jul 2000 03:28:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jul 2000 03:28:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12507 On Sat, 15 Jul 2000 20:29:55 +0200, Peter Knutsen wrote: >Blackberry wrote: >> 2) It's possible to take 20 arrows through the hand and still be fine (except >> for your hand). > >What's the problem with that? In reality you'd loose a little bit >of blood, but you'd still be able to walk if you could cope with >the pain. Actually, if you take enough damage in a hit location, the location is destroyed. (I think it's twice the number of hit points in the location.) Further hits against that location have to be shifted to other locations. Now, with an allied spirit with healing, you can take 20 arrows one at a time in a hit location and be fine, but your spirit will run out of POW eventually. :-) -- Kevin Maroney | Crossover Technologies | kmaroney@crossover.com Games are my entire waking life. ###### From: John Powell Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Posted-And-Mailed: yes Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Message-ID: <160720001649160641%john@jetcity.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <24bf4534.0520aa8b@usw-ex0107-055.remarq.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.2.6 Lines: 18 X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 19:53:04 EDT Organization: WebUseNet Corp http://www.usenetserver.com - Home of the fastest NNTP servers on the Net. Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 16:49:16 -0700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.online.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!john Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12461 [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] In article <24bf4534.0520aa8b@usw-ex0107-055.remarq.com>, Ham Salad wrote: > Blackberry wrote: > > > >What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your > favorite RPGs? > > Aberrant: > 1) The fact that White Wolf actually produced a game worth > playing has severly damaged my tenuous hold on reality. HA! ROFL! John ###### From: "Christian Walker" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 14 Jul 2000 23:26:35 EDT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 57 Message-ID: <8kollb$eq7@journal.concentric.net> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.1.212.96 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12598 3 Worst features of My Favorite Games TSR's Star Frontiers 1) No dodge or parry mechanic to avoid being hit in combat 2) Attributes generated randomly 3) Out of print GURPS 1) Magic system sucks out loud 2) Disadvantage/Quirk system allows for too many abuses in character creation 3) Vehicle, Robot, Mecha construction far, far too complicated to be of any real value -- -Christian Remove the 'nospam' to reply via e-mail ******************************************** "Talking in character? Here's something in character, "Bite Me!!" - Bitter Stevil from Knights of the Dinner Table #28 ******************************************* gaming fun at http://users.deltanet.com/~antissa Blackberry wrote in message <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com>... |New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of all that crap. | |What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your favorite RPGs? | |Hero: |1) Takes some effort and add-on rules to scale well at low power levels |2) An entire city could be leveled in one minute of combat (with blows, |knockback, explosions, etc.) |3) Piling on power limitations can lead to characters with much more power than |you thought | |GURPS: |1) The system leans heavily on 2 of the 4 attributes |2) Skill costs are artificial and are balanced against each other but not |necessarily against reality |3) Combat is deadly | |-------------------- |"It's enough to make you wonder sometimes if you're on the right planet." |-- Frankie Goes to Hollywood |Brian -- lepus@europa.com -- http://www.europa.com/~lepus | ###### From: "Christian Walker" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 15 Jul 2000 13:23:36 EDT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 56 Message-ID: <8kq6mo$32o@journal.concentric.net> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.1.211.240 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!dc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12592 3 Worst features of My Favorite Games TSR's Star Frontiers 1) No dodge or parry mechanic to avoid being hit in combat 2) Attributes generated randomly 3) Out of print GURPS 1) Magic system sucks out loud 2) Disadvantage/Quirk system allows for too many abuses in character creation 3) Vehicle, Robot, Mecha construction far, far too complicated to be of any real value -- -Christian Remove the 'nospam' to reply via e-mail ******************************************** "Talking in character? Here's something in character, "Bite Me!!" - Bitter Stevil from Knights of the Dinner Table #28 ******************************************* gaming fun at http://users.deltanet.com/~antissa Blackberry wrote in message <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com>... |New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of all that crap. | |What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your favorite RPGs? | |Hero: |1) Takes some effort and add-on rules to scale well at low power levels |2) An entire city could be leveled in one minute of combat (with blows, |knockback, explosions, etc.) |3) Piling on power limitations can lead to characters with much more power than |you thought | |GURPS: |1) The system leans heavily on 2 of the 4 attributes |2) Skill costs are artificial and are balanced against each other but not |necessarily against reality |3) Combat is deadly | |-------------------- |"It's enough to make you wonder sometimes if you're on the right planet." |-- Frankie Goes to Hollywood |Brian -- lepus@europa.com -- http://www.europa.com/~lepus | ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:22:45 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 30 Message-ID: <397340E5.E832289@myriad.net> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <396F319B.1F187CE0@myriad.net> <396F6B6F.4977840E@research.bell-labs.com> <396F63FA.A0AF1D5E@myriad.net> <39734275.BEB5C702@research.bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jul 2000 19:13:47 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp.giganews.com!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12515 Graham Wills wrote: > > "Frank T. Sronce" wrote: > > > 3) I just don't like Dreamlands, both the concept and the execution. > > > > > > > Ah, well, not everyone is gifted with good taste. :-) > > > > Personally, I adore it and based my "Children of the Worm" CoC campaign > > entirely in Earth's Dreamlands. I used Myers and Lovecraft as canon, > > though, and ignored all the Lumley stuff. I wanted a dangerous and > > exotic Dreamlands, not a silly one. :-) > > Agree with the Lumley. Not that excited by it either. > Perhaps a solution for occultists is to use the rules on becoming > acclimatized to horror a little more loosely than the system suggests. > "Oh look, a tentacled blubbering thing. Reminds me of a Shoggoth > digesting an Elder Thing I saw a while back. Oh, is the sight > disturbing you?" > > - Graham Well, for my game, I put in a rule that the amount of San you had to lose at once to go temporarily insane was something like 3+POW/5. Can't remember the exact rule anymore, but basically humans with a POW of 18+ couldn't go temporarily insane when faced with a 1d6 San loss critter, but could still be slowly driven mad by running out of San. Kiz ###### From: Graham Wills Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:29:25 -0500 Organization: Bell Laboratories Lines: 52 Message-ID: <39734275.BEB5C702@research.bell-labs.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <396F319B.1F187CE0@myriad.net> <396F6B6F.4977840E@research.bell-labs.com> <396F63FA.A0AF1D5E@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: twitch.research.bell-labs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E042995E27E8321A2754AE91" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73C-SGI [en] (X11; U; IRIX64 6.5 IP30) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!207.24.196.41!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12595 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E042995E27E8321A2754AE91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Frank T. Sronce" wrote: > > 3) I just don't like Dreamlands, both the concept and the execution. > > > > Ah, well, not everyone is gifted with good taste. :-) > > Personally, I adore it and based my "Children of the Worm" CoC campaign > entirely in Earth's Dreamlands. I used Myers and Lovecraft as canon, > though, and ignored all the Lumley stuff. I wanted a dangerous and > exotic Dreamlands, not a silly one. :-) Agree with the Lumley. Not that excited by it either. Perhaps a solution for occultists is to use the rules on becoming acclimatized to horror a little more loosely than the system suggests. "Oh look, a tentacled blubbering thing. Reminds me of a Shoggoth digesting an Elder Thing I saw a while back. Oh, is the sight disturbing you?" - Graham -- Graham Wills Data Visualization, Bell Labs gwills@research.bell-labs.com +1 (630) 979 7338 http://www.bell-labs.com/~gwills Silk for Calde! --------------E042995E27E8321A2754AE91 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="gwills.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Graham Wills Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="gwills.vcf" begin:vcard n:Wills;Graham x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Bell Laboratories;Software Production (Visualization Group) adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:gwills@research.bell-labs.com title:Member of Technical Staff note;quoted-printable:Internal: www-spr.research.bell-labs.com/~gwills=0D=0AExternal: www.bell-labs.com/~gwills=0D=0APersonal: willsfamily.org x-mozilla-cpt:;9408 fn:Graham Wills end:vcard --------------E042995E27E8321A2754AE91-- ###### From: owenpat@iastate.edu (Owen Reynolds) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 17 Jul 2000 20:04:20 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa, USA Lines: 48 Message-ID: <8kvos4$bre$1@news.iastate.edu> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <396F319B.1F187CE0@myriad.net> <396F6B6F.4977840E@research.bell-labs.com> <396F63FA.A0AF1D5E@myriad.net> <39734275.BEB5C702@research.bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: isua2.iastate.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!owenpat Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12559 EarthDawn is the only fantasy system I use right now and I like "all stats are used somewhere in combat" (which D&D is just now doing,) "mages get to roll dice a lot in combat, too," the background and the idea of the die mechanics. Having said that, three things I don't like: 1) It's silly!!! The primary curative spell is "Heat Food." How does that heal, you say? It makes food not just hot, but _piping hot_. I see a Domino's pizza commercial somewhere in there. The primary defensive spell for Elementalist mages is to summon an invisible flying wheelchair. You need to scream like a bird, drink imaginary tea, pick your magical "laser dot" ... to use many skills. 2) Dice problems similar to WhiteWolf and Legend of the 5 Rings. Step X means you roll dice that give you an average result of X, and might get higher or lower. For Feng Shui you use X+d6-d6, 6's add and reroll, which gives you a predictable curve. Step 12, say, in EarthDawn means roll 2d10, 10's add and reroll. This gives a really spread-out curve that Legend of the 5 Rings also suffers from, but worse since you don't get the extra dice to help average it out. Step 12 has a 20% chance of not getting an 8, and a 5% chance of 24+. You get too many failures from experts, and difficult tasks are either failure or critical successes. In practice, my nuisance zombie rabbits don't do minor damage -- they do nothing to 3 players and a major wound to the 4th. For jumping, you roll something like d10 for how many, ummm, "units" you can go. That's even worse than WhiteWolf!! 3) Unbalanced skills are "features." The Dispel Magic spell is 1st level and they make a point of saying that even swinging a sword and dodging count as magical and can be dispeled. huh? I'm trying to imagine a 1st level D&D spell that negates all pluses to hit or makes you cast all spells like you were 1st level. The "taunt" skill works on anything and makes it mad, OK, and reduces attack/damage/spells... by about 1/3!! Didn't you know that the best way to fight anything is to tease it and make it helpless? I just realized one of my players is a 1st level weaponsmith who can make swords +3 to damage for the entire party!! (average weapon damage is step 10, so this is like maybe +2 in D&D terms.) -- Owen Reynolds owenpat@iastate.edu ###### X-Originating-Host: 205.221.255.42 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 46 From: RJM Hughes Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <1c8f03a4.37112bfe@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> Bytes: 1505 X-Wren-Trace: eAovBwYfWBJZXh8WG08ZEEE5EgAbA0sVA0gGBg5eQRpQQhhZVQRNUVNFWl0= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:16:25 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.14 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 963876641 10.0.2.14 (Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:30:41 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:30:41 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12603 Blackberry wrote: > >What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your favorite RPGs? For Palladium's RIFTS, and ignoring the fact it's not really a favorite of mine, I'd have to say: 1) The bonuses for superior intelligence are so tiny they may as well not exist, and are less than a three-level skill-modifier difference. Geniuses should have more going for them. 2) Mega-damage in RIFTS means instant death for anyone who gets even mega-scratched. 3) The BUS (Badass Uprgrade Syndrome) problem. Each RIFTS supplements seemed to introduce a new class more horrendous than the next, munchkin heaven. The first Marvel Super Heroes: 1) They didn't include the Ultimate Powers Book, which made the system, with the basic rules box. 2) The Karma rules made it impossible to play a homicidal vigilante, even if you defined him as a villain. 3) Item and weapon construction for techno-wizards was more trouble than it was worth. White Wolf's Mage: 1) 1st Edition: Original theme and setting, horribly vague rules 2) 2nd Edition: Inspiring theme and backplot, still terribly unclear rules 3) 3rd Edition: Depressing and annoying theme and backplot, with somewhat clearer rules (suggesting that White Wolf games are subject to a conservation-of-competence law) ----------------------------------------------------------- Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com ###### From: Peter Meilinger Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 17 Jul 2000 23:51:36 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8l0668$r73$1@news3.bu.edu> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <1c8f03a4.37112bfe@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> X-Trace: news3.bu.edu 963877896 27875 128.197.153.30 (17 Jul 2000 23:51:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@bu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4-19991113 ("No Labels") (UNIX) (AIX/4-2) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news.bu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12633 RJM Hughes wrote: : The first Marvel Super Heroes: : 1) They didn't include the Ultimate Powers Book, which made the : system, with the basic rules box. : 2) The Karma rules made it impossible to play a homicidal : vigilante, even if you defined him as a villain. : 3) Item and weapon construction for techno-wizards was more : trouble than it was worth. I'd add 4) Some character had no real way to harm or defeat other characters. Which makes sense realistically, but not in comic book logic. Still, loved that game to death. Pete ###### Lines: 17 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: napoleon48@aol.com (Napoleon48) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Date: 18 Jul 2000 00:32:38 GMT References: <39734275.BEB5C702@research.bell-labs.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Message-ID: <20000717203238.02313.00000059@ng-fp1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12566 Call of Cthulhu 1.) The system could use a lot of work and improvement. 2.)The main rulebook, I feel, should include a lot more than it did, especially in the area of advice for keepers. 3.)Pagan Publishing takes so long to make new stuff. Unknown Armies 1.) The rulebook isn't hardcover. 2.) There isn't a fiction anthology for it. 3.) I have my doubts about the system. People say it works fine, but I'm gonna have to see for myself whether it works in practice. ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games From: Winn Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <1c8f03a4.37112bfe@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 X-Trace: /w3Za8a+ezzvqdSpr/s16SFnvmi7hPiKK6iMc2VmgCSrxQfxll0RCwh/mA+xXiiy9qTq2d+AsRpi!Tuoll39Ar68U7O6obME23BYBj6Pe+GZJPcCGdgJY34aijS6EY8mc7Uy5Y+c= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:16:12 GMT Distribution: world Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:16:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12641 RJM Hughes wrote on 07/17/00 07:16 PM: > White Wolf's Mage: > > 1) 1st Edition: Original theme and setting, horribly vague rules > 2) 2nd Edition: Inspiring theme and backplot, still terribly > unclear rules > 3) 3rd Edition: Depressing and annoying theme and backplot, with > somewhat clearer rules (suggesting that White Wolf games are > subject to a conservation-of-competence law) This is the funniest thing i have read in weeks. My compliments, R ###### X-Originating-Host: 206.17.88.100 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 57 From: Ham Salad Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <16d1f537.91876109@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <24bf4534.0520aa8b@usw-ex0107-055.remarq.com> Bytes: 1711 X-Wren-Trace: eH9acnNqLWcsN1RkezN/ck1kYG53ejZlNHB/cTY5Nmk+KGgwKWckICMu Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:20:07 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.15 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 963956061 10.0.2.15 (Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:34:21 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:34:21 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12694 Lizard wrote: >On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:22:07 -0700, Ham Salad > wrote: > >>Hero System: > >>3) You can't buy a Charater Generator for it for the Mac, Let >>alone Linux. What's Character Cremator written in, anyhow? >> >Logo. :) That would explain it. Unless you meant _Lego_ :-} >I still use Heromaker in preferance to Creation Workshop. You and me both, but I can't tweak the costs in Heromaker, and they tell me it can theoretically be done in FuzionCaster -- er, I mean Creation Wreakshop. >>Aberrant: >>1) The fact that White Wolf actually produced a game worth >>playing has severly damaged my tenuous hold on reality. > >Yup. Spooky. No doubt an accident that will never be duplicated, like most superhero gadgets. >>2) In the typical modern fashion, WW starts by selling you just >>enough to barely get started, then holds out another chunk to >>tempt you to part with another chunk of change every six months. > >Shrug. I find they give you more than enough setting info to get you >started. The only thing really missing from the core rules, possibly >STILL missing, is 'techno heroes' -- which really don't fit in the >setting, unless they borrow a page from Wild Cards and have gadgeteers >make devices which work only for them, because they BELIEVE they do. Yeah, I use "Believe that they are making devices to do things" as a Taint Effect. Took the players a while to catch on to what was going on... Ham Salad ----------------------------------------------------------- Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com ###### X-Originating-Host: 213.237.18.217 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 30 From: metal-dog Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <1c75f55f.cb6b8d64@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <24bf4534.0520aa8b@usw-ex0107-055.remarq.com> <058d7bf4.bbc418a6@usw-ex0105-038.remarq.com> Bytes: 1322 X-Wren-Trace: eK2IoKG4/7X+4LyxqeHhoLC5nbKsp+ivpaCrouq6u+Di+bz/7b/r9O/98ebxvOk= Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:54:53 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.34 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 964019349 10.0.2.34 (Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:09:09 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:09:09 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12709 Heh… I've bought the lot of it too! Great stuff. However: The combat rules are pretty tough on starting characters, but experienced characters quickly become ridiculously tough. When characters gain experience, they suddenly (and inexplicably) develop strange powers. There is only the barest bones of a Skill resolution mechanic, and a character's attributes does not in any way affect his likelihood of succeeding at a task. Strange for a game, where the whole experience system is centered around gaining higher attributes. The monsters: Open up the book of foes. If you look at each monster's characteristics, and estimate what sort of attribute levels the monster's stats imply, you will find that each individual monster has roughly the same value in all of it's attributes regardless of what it says in the description of the monster, so they might just as well simply have had a single "Monster Rating" as in Tunnels And Trolls. But don't get me wrong, though: This IS one of my favorite games despite of it's shortcomings. If a second edition were ever to be released (Yeah, right…) I'd certainly rush out and buy it! ----------------------------------------------------------- Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com ###### From: clarkrs@mindspring.com Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Message-ID: <3978797c.2996459@news.giganews.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kollb$eq7@journal.concentric.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 74 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:22:20 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-bMZJ/Qqm4Nl225hmPxZuymurHrexS3DxbSyiiIbVoeTJVXJAKwbgijdqNWiAZy6IhjUH6prj/32GsT+!ao3meQTSEHo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:29:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12900 On 14 Jul 2000 23:26:35 EDT, "Christian Walker" wrote: >3 Worst features of My Favorite Games > >TSR's Star Frontiers > >1) No dodge or parry mechanic to avoid being hit in combat >2) Attributes generated randomly >3) Out of print > >GURPS > >1) Magic system sucks out loud I really think I am the only person who likes the GURPS magic system. That's not to say that I haven't altered the hell out of it when I play, but I actually like the base more than most systems. >2) Disadvantage/Quirk system allows for too many abuses in character >creation Yup. Though really this is going to happen in any system where you can get points for being bad at anything you never plan on doing. >3) Vehicle, Robot, Mecha construction far, far too complicated to be of >any real value It's kind of fun for playing with for a few minutes, but I can't imaging trying to play a game like that. rsc > > >-- >-Christian > >Remove the 'nospam' to reply via e-mail >******************************************** >"Talking in character? Here's something in >character, "Bite Me!!" >- Bitter Stevil from Knights of the Dinner Table #28 >******************************************* >gaming fun at http://users.deltanet.com/~antissa > > >Blackberry wrote in message <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com>... >|New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of all that >crap. >| >|What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your favorite >RPGs? >| >|Hero: >|1) Takes some effort and add-on rules to scale well at low power levels >|2) An entire city could be leveled in one minute of combat (with blows, >|knockback, explosions, etc.) >|3) Piling on power limitations can lead to characters with much more >power than >|you thought >| >|GURPS: >|1) The system leans heavily on 2 of the 4 attributes >|2) Skill costs are artificial and are balanced against each other but not >|necessarily against reality >|3) Combat is deadly >| >|-------------------- >|"It's enough to make you wonder sometimes if you're on the right planet." >|-- Frankie Goes to Hollywood >|Brian -- lepus@europa.com -- http://www.europa.com/~lepus >| > > ###### From: owenpat@iastate.edu (Owen Reynolds) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 21 Jul 2000 19:53:07 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa, USA Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8la9n3$k96$1@news.iastate.edu> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kollb$eq7@journal.concentric.net> <3978797c.2996459@news.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: isua2.iastate.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!owenpat Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12887 >>3 Worst features of My Favorite Games >>GURPS >> >>1) Magic system sucks out loud >I really think I am the only person who likes the GURPS magic system. >That's not to say that I haven't altered the hell out of it when I >play, but I actually like the base more than most systems. GURP's magic system has made me realize how ad hoc other systems often are. How stupid is it that in D&D you can know "Fireball" without knowing "affects normal fires" or "burning hands"? and how dumb is it that there's no roll to place a fireball where you want it? [An aside, I always imagined a mage casting a fireball, saying "5 meters" and having to apologize as it went off right behind the fighters holding off the horde of orcs.] It is probably too easy to buy one spell to 20-25, but it's easy to modify. I know one GM who lets you buy a spell up to the level of ALL prereqs in the chain +1 (so to have the dehydrate combat spell at 25, you need to have about 6 other spells at 24,) and all spells cost at least 1/2 a point to cast and maintain (0-cost spells can get a little out-of-hand.) There are lots of other easy ways to adjust the system. My biggest "complaint" is it seems odd the Generic, Universal system has 1 fixed magic system (save for GURPs WoD:Mage, I guess.) -- Owen Reynolds owenpat@iastate.edu ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kollb$eq7@journal.concentric.net> <3978797c.2996459@news.giganews.com> <8la9n3$k96$1@news.iastate.edu> Organization: Illuminati Online X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: jeffj@fnord.io.com (Dr Nuncheon) Lines: 35 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:20:27 CDT X-Trace: sv2-mSoSwzvpzaf2CGARKD4cisRJsNHZen86ZwTLpKQvxO4CfUWwCSDlslqpehmeFV0h8+kN57YX1vrJOEy!JE0EZcxU7o5asPRDT4Ot2rYHOXg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:20:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12925 In article <8la9n3$k96$1@news.iastate.edu>, Owen Reynolds wrote: >>>3 Worst features of My Favorite Games >>>GURPS >>> >>>1) Magic system sucks out loud >>I really think I am the only person who likes the GURPS magic system. >>That's not to say that I haven't altered the hell out of it when I >>play, but I actually like the base more than most systems. > > GURP's magic system has made me realize how ad hoc other systems >often are. How stupid is it that in D&D you can know "Fireball" without >knowing "affects normal fires" or "burning hands"? and how dumb is it that >there's no roll to place a fireball where you want it? Yes, GURPS has a very 'scientific' and 'logical' view on magic. Some people think this detracts from the sensawunda of it all, but I think it works well for settings where magic is...well...a science. Your typical Hermetic-style mage, for example, would not be out of place using the GURPS magic system. > My biggest "complaint" is it seems odd the Generic, Universal system >has 1 fixed magic system (save for GURPs WoD:Mage, I guess.) Well, there's the official magic system, the several alternate systems in GURPS:Magic like Improvised, Runic, and Knack Magic, plus GURPS Mage (as you note) and one of my faves, GURPS Voodoo. Plus I've used the Psionics and Supers rules as the basis for magic systems before. So that's a lot more than one... J -- "Boy, you lose one measly continent and people | Jeff Johnston just won't let you forget about it." - Kenneth Hite | "Suppressed Transmissions", _Pyramid_ 5/12/00 | jeffj @ io.com ###### From: clarkrs@mindspring.com Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Message-ID: <3978b139.1131899@news.giganews.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kollb$eq7@journal.concentric.net> <3978797c.2996459@news.giganews.com> <8la9n3$k96$1@news.iastate.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:19:27 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-67Mezj+hUg8CeaO/tF/cqxvo5MJtJahNP1vU1JOJwV+NPVr7T0pmwt0x8aiIeGrUuU98RTglKnekA5N!UCz/CFN0Rg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:26:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12897 On 21 Jul 2000 19:53:07 GMT, owenpat@iastate.edu (Owen Reynolds) wrote: >>>3 Worst features of My Favorite Games >>>GURPS >>> >>>1) Magic system sucks out loud >>I really think I am the only person who likes the GURPS magic system. >>That's not to say that I haven't altered the hell out of it when I >>play, but I actually like the base more than most systems. > > GURP's magic system has made me realize how ad hoc other systems >often are. How stupid is it that in D&D you can know "Fireball" without >knowing "affects normal fires" or "burning hands"? and how dumb is it that >there's no roll to place a fireball where you want it? > [An aside, I always imagined a mage casting a fireball, saying "5 >meters" and having to apologize as it went off right behind the fighters >holding off the horde of orcs.] > > It is probably too easy to buy one spell to 20-25, but it's easy to >modify. I know one GM who lets you buy a spell up to the level of ALL >prereqs in the chain +1 (so to have the dehydrate combat spell at 25, you >need to have about 6 other spells at 24,) and all spells cost at least 1/2 >a point to cast and maintain (0-cost spells can get a little out-of-hand.) > There are lots of other easy ways to adjust the system. > > My biggest "complaint" is it seems odd the Generic, Universal system >has 1 fixed magic system (save for GURPs WoD:Mage, I guess.) The game also only has one supers system and only one psionics system, it's just that for both of these they provide tools to alter the system (power ads/disads; pside effects) while the magic system is basically presented as is. rsc >-- >Owen Reynolds >owenpat@iastate.edu ###### From: Lizard Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:29:25 -0700 Organization: Ferengi Academy of Business Ethics Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3978B2A5.983DC033@mrlizard.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kollb$eq7@journal.concentric.net> <3978797c.2996459@news.giganews.com> <8la9n3$k96$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-380.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12952 Owen Reynolds wrote: > GURP's magic system has made me realize how ad hoc other systems > often are. How stupid is it that in D&D you can know "Fireball" without > knowing "affects normal fires" or "burning hands"? Depends on how magic works. If each spell is a unique incantation, there's no reason WHY fireball should resemble, in any way Affect Normal Fires. You say the magic words, make the magic gestures, and Poof! There's a fireball. It's not necessarily a process of "First, I open the gate to the plane of fire. Then, I channel the fire. Then, I shape it into a ball", with each step being applicable to other uses. 'Skill tree' magic systems aren't all that common, in part because, well, they don't feel very magical. It's "magic as a sort of science". Magic is very arbitrary. I could argue, "Why do you need Magery to cast spells? Shouldn't anyone who knows the magic words be able to cast the spells? Why should some genetic elite with a high midichlorian count get to cast?" In D&D3e, for example, anyone can learn spells if they have an INT of 11 or higher. I happen to like GURPS magic, because I *do* like a 'scientific' approach -- but it's purely a matter of taste. There's no 'reality check' for magic. ###### From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 21 Jul 2000 20:44:55 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 34 Message-ID: <8laco7$gt7$1@news.service.uci.edu> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <3978797c.2996459@news.giganews.com> <8la9n3$k96$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.ps.uci.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!132.239.1.220!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.service.uci.edu!cascade.ps.uci.edu!jhkim Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12918 Dr Nuncheon wrote: >Owen Reynolds wrote: >> GURP's magic system has made me realize how ad hoc other systems >> often are. How stupid is it that in D&D you can know "Fireball" without >> knowing "affects normal fires" or "burning hands"? and how dumb is it >> that there's no roll to place a fireball where you want it? > >Yes, GURPS has a very 'scientific' and 'logical' view on magic. Some >people think this detracts from the sensawunda of it all, but I think it >works well for settings where magic is...well...a science. Your typical >Hermetic-style mage, for example, would not be out of place using the >GURPS magic system. Well, Hermetic magic was extremely logical, but it was not scientific and certainly nothing whatsoever like the default GURPS magic system. I would suggest _GURPS Voodoo_ (which has hermetic magic as a sideline, mostly for the NPC lodge members) or _Liber Ka_ (for Chaosium's _Nephilim_). On the other hand, _Ars Magica_ has a brand of magic that it call "hermetic", and it is scientific. On the other hand, it bears no resemblance to anything else called hermetic magic (except maybe for RPG systems that copied _Ars Magica_). GURPS default magic is similar in a number of ways, but if I were doing _GURPS Ars Magica_ I would be inclined to adapt the _Ars Magica_ system rather than trying to adapt the default GURPS magic. -- John H. Kim | Whatever else is true you jhkim@fnal.gov | Trust your little finger www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can UC Irvine, Cal, USA | Save the world. - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins" ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8la9n3$k96$1@news.iastate.edu> <8labup$3u9co$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> Organization: Illuminati Online X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: jeffj@fnord.io.com (Dr Nuncheon) Lines: 28 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:31:35 CDT X-Trace: sv2-p87dDlRwA8Snj+yAFp3py1+U+fn9nrS80u1LwlyjUF4FpgvpVswMAZlmCHAxHRLxwVBLbmOFNDgRy7T!nJDVnrBz/TF4E7oV35wLRtDng5Y= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 21:31:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12924 In article <8labup$3u9co$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de>, S. John Ross wrote: >| Well, there's the official magic system, the several alternate systems in >| GURPS:Magic like Improvised, Runic, and Knack Magic, plus GURPS Mage (as >| you note) and one of my faves, GURPS Voodoo. Plus I've used the Psionics >| and Supers rules as the basis for magic systems before. So that's a lot >| more than one... > >I think "default" or "sample" is more accurate than "official," too. GURPS >doesn't really do "official" - at least without putting it in quotes :) That might be the intent, but the practice seems to be 'shoehorn whatever license/world we have into the existing GURPS Magic system with as few changes as possible'. Happened in Arabian Nights, Witch World, Celtic Myth, Discworld, Conan (just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others). That to me says more "official" than "default". It seems like getting them to use a different magic system is like pulling teeth - which is a shame, because some of my favorite bits on GURPS books are those alternate systems. Voodoo was great, the magic was the best part of the Madlands book, GURPS Mage is based on a very interesting idea... J -- "Boy, you lose one measly continent and people | Jeff Johnston just won't let you forget about it." - Kenneth Hite | "Suppressed Transmissions", _Pyramid_ 5/12/00 | jeffj @ io.com ###### From: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 21 Jul 2000 21:55:38 GMT Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8lagsq$8g2$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <3978797c.2996459@news.giganews.com> <8la9n3$k96$1@news.iastate.edu> <3978b139.1131899@news.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: verden.pvv.ntnu.no X-Trace: kopp.stud.ntnu.no 964216538 8706 129.241.210.224 (21 Jul 2000 21:55:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@itea.ntnu.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 2000 21:55:38 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Originator: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!news-x.support.nl!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!uninett.no!ntnu.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12901 OK, I'll shoot: GURPS: 1. Only one mental attribute vs. three physical ones. 2. Skills depend too strongly on attributes. 3. Too many kludgy optional rules. CORPS: 1. Magic metasystem is rather muddled. 2. Sometimes seems a bit on the coarse side. 3. Not nearly popular enough. Harnmaster: 1. Too damn bulky, what with the loose-leaf-and-binder format. 2. Linear die roll mechanic, this is mathematically unappealing. 3. Random character generation. -- Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll) ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:42:50 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 95 Message-ID: <8lan5n$6vp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kollb$eq7@journal.concentric.net> <3978797c.2996459@news.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.41.107 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Jul 21 23:42:50 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x56.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.192.41.107 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsd_anderson Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12956 In article <3978797c.2996459@news.giganews.com>, clarkrs@mindspring.com wrote: > On 14 Jul 2000 23:26:35 EDT, "Christian Walker" > wrote: > > >3 Worst features of My Favorite Games > > > >TSR's Star Frontiers > > > >1) No dodge or parry mechanic to avoid being hit in combat > >2) Attributes generated randomly > >3) Out of print > > > >GURPS > > > >1) Magic system sucks out loud > I really think I am the only person who likes the GURPS magic system. > That's not to say that I haven't altered the hell out of it when I > play, but I actually like the base more than most systems. Not exactly 'only'. GURPS Magic is more a GURPS rule book than a source book. It's continuously in print. Why? Players using it is the first answer that comes to my mind. And considering that the system was first introduced in GURPS Fantasy 1st edition and that Magic itself was published out of customer demand for more spells etc, the idea that 'nobody' likes the magic system in GURPS is a bigger myth than Uri Gellar's spoon bending powers. > >2) Disadvantage/Quirk system allows for too many abuses in character > >creation > Yup. Though really this is going to happen in any system where you > can get points for being bad at anything you never plan on doing. > > >3) Vehicle, Robot, Mecha construction far, far too complicated to be of > >any real value > It's kind of fun for playing with for a few minutes, but I can't > imaging trying to play a game like that. > > rsc > > > > > > >-- > >-Christian > > > >Remove the 'nospam' to reply via e-mail > >******************************************** > >"Talking in character? Here's something in > >character, "Bite Me!!" > >- Bitter Stevil from Knights of the Dinner Table #28 > >******************************************* > >gaming fun at http://users.deltanet.com/~antissa > > > > > >Blackberry wrote in message <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com>... > >|New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of all that > >crap. > >| > >|What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your favorite > >RPGs? > >| > >|Hero: > >|1) Takes some effort and add-on rules to scale well at low power levels > >|2) An entire city could be leveled in one minute of combat (with blows, > >|knockback, explosions, etc.) > >|3) Piling on power limitations can lead to characters with much more > >power than > >|you thought > >| > >|GURPS: > >|1) The system leans heavily on 2 of the 4 attributes > >|2) Skill costs are artificial and are balanced against each other but not > >|necessarily against reality > >|3) Combat is deadly > >| > >|-------------------- > >|"It's enough to make you wonder sometimes if you're on the right planet." > >|-- Frankie Goes to Hollywood > >|Brian -- lepus@europa.com -- http://www.europa.com/~lepus > >| > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 5 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 22 Jul 2000 01:41:41 GMT References: <8lagsq$8g2$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000721214141.23656.00000296@ng-cj1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12964 << 2. Linear die roll mechanic, this is mathematically unappealing. >> Why exactly? (Are we talking linear as opposed to bell curve? I see no problem there- it just means you've as much chance of rolling a low number as something near the middle.) ###### From: clarkrs@mindspring.com (Robert Scott Clark) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Reply-To: clarkrs@mindspring.com Message-ID: <398213f4.15571801@news.giganews.com> References: <8lagsq$8g2$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no> <20000721214141.23656.00000296@ng-cj1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 22:24:51 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-Y5UO4onSULJn1X699rPgradIDY3805IMBt5uIcAXi2rwsC78I9F8iZVGngdqsL0lJnKWmrZqAY4Q3O9!IoODSnq1dQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 03:26:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12961 bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) wrote: ><< 2. Linear die roll mechanic, this is mathematically unappealing. >> > >Why exactly? (Are we talking linear as opposed to bell curve? I see no problem >there- it just means you've as much chance of rolling a low number as something >near the middle.) Just a preference thing. Bell-curve emphasizes importance of skill levels (the deviation from average is less) , while linear puts more importance on luck. Both can be fun (I prefer bell, but wouldn't screw with mechanics to change it) rsc ###### From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 22 Jul 2000 05:46:53 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8lbcgd$1le$1@news.service.uci.edu> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8labup$3u9co$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8lanj1$433r7$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.ps.uci.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!news.service.uci.edu!cascade.ps.uci.edu!jhkim Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12975 S. John Ross wrote: >Fair enough; just different definitions of what "official" means, in >that case. But, as a counterpoint, can you name too many other RPG >libraries that have _more_ magic systems in the rulebooks than GURPS >does? I suppose it depends on what you count as a magic system. Nearly all GURPS supplements just have different sets of spells. There are a couple of options in the back of _Magic_, but all but one are basically just sidebars or modifications to existing magic. The other exceptions that I know of would be _Voodoo_, _Mage_, and possibly _Fantasy II_ (although the magic in FII is more like sets of spells or items than a different system). So if we're being conservative: 4. How many does _Ars Magica_ have now? I know it has hermetic, shamanic, hedge, and kabbalistic which are all quite distinct. I'm not sure about the divine-related magic and infernal-related magic. Hero is sort of tricky to evaluate, since a big chunk of _Fantasy Hero_ is explaining how to design one's own magic system, and includes I think 4 samples along with the default system. Plus _Horror Hero_ with its spirit magic stuff, plus the comic-book sorcery supplement (forgot the name). I don't know of any others. -- John H. Kim | Whatever else is true you jhkim@fnal.gov | Trust your little finger www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can UC Irvine, Cal, USA | Save the world. - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins" ###### From: "Mitch Wilson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <24bf4534.0520aa8b@usw-ex0107-055.remarq.com> <058d7bf4.bbc418a6@usw-ex0105-038.remarq.com> <1c75f55f.cb6b8d64@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com> Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 09:31:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.142.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.bnapk1.occa.home.com 964258261 24.9.142.67 (Sat, 22 Jul 2000 02:31:01 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 02:31:01 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.bnapk1.occa.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12981 > When characters gain experience, they suddenly (and inexplicably) > develop strange powers. Ah, but those power gains are my favorite part of the game! Call me a munchkin, but who wouldn't want to become a Lord of Creation? :) > There is only the barest bones of a Skill resolution mechanic, > and > a character's attributes does not in any way affect his > likelihood > of succeeding at a task. Strange for a game, where the whole > experience system is centered around gaining higher attributes. > The monsters: Open up the book of foes. If you look at each > monster's characteristics, and estimate what sort of attribute > levels the monster's stats imply, you will find that each > individual monster has roughly the same value in all of it's > attributes regardless of what it says in the description of the > monster, so they might just as well simply have had a single > "Monster Rating" as in Tunnels And Trolls. This is good to know. Thanks for the info. > But don't get me wrong, though: This IS one of my favorite games > despite of it's shortcomings. If a second edition were ever to be > released (Yeah, right.) I'd certainly rush out and buy it! If you're anywhere near Newport Beach I'll play with ya :) MitchW ###### From: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 22 Jul 2000 10:02:11 GMT Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8lbrf3$5ce$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no> References: <8lagsq$8g2$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no> <20000721214141.23656.00000296@ng-cj1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: verden.pvv.ntnu.no X-Trace: kopp.stud.ntnu.no 964260131 5518 129.241.210.224 (22 Jul 2000 10:02:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@itea.ntnu.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jul 2000 10:02:11 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Originator: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!uninett.no!ntnu.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12959 In article <20000721214141.23656.00000296@ng-cj1.aol.com>, Bokman7757 wrote: ><< 2. Linear die roll mechanic, this is mathematically unappealing. >> > >Why exactly? (Are we talking linear as opposed to bell curve? I see no >problem >there- it just means you've as much chance of rolling a low number as >something >near the middle.) Precisely. The unappealing part comes when you want to use penalties or bonuses for difficulty (which most systems do). Most systems handle this in one of two ways: Directly adding to or subtracting from the number you're rolling against (or the number you get on the dice; same difference), or else multiplying effective skill (or roll) by some number. Neither method makes me ecstatically happy; feels to me like adding/subtracting does too much to the success chance for characters with lower basic skills while multiplying does too much for those with higher basic skills, if you see what I mean. On principle, I prefer "bell curves". Still, the devil is in the details, and I think Harnmaster at least implements this mechanic in a tolerable way (while some other systems I could name IMHO do not). -- Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll) ###### From: Peter Meilinger Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 22 Jul 2000 14:22:23 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 32 Message-ID: <8lcamv$5p9$1@news3.bu.edu> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8labup$3u9co$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8lanj1$433r7$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8lbcgd$1le$1@news.service.uci.edu> X-Trace: news3.bu.edu 964275743 5929 128.197.153.30 (22 Jul 2000 14:22:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@bu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4-19991113 ("No Labels") (UNIX) (AIX/4-2) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news.bu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12987 John Kim wrote: : S. John Ross wrote: :>Fair enough; just different definitions of what "official" means, in :>that case. But, as a counterpoint, can you name too many other RPG :>libraries that have _more_ magic systems in the rulebooks than GURPS :>does? Well, this isn't necessarily a fair question - GURPS claims to be a generic rules system that lets you play in any world you can imagine. The fact that I can make up my own magic rules if I don't want to use the GURPS default version doesn't mean they're right - I could do that with any game, generic or not. : Hero is sort of tricky to evaluate, since a big chunk of : _Fantasy Hero_ is explaining how to design one's own magic system, : and includes I think 4 samples along with the default system. : Plus _Horror Hero_ with its spirit magic stuff, plus the comic-book : sorcery supplement (forgot the name). Hero's the one I'd put up against GURPS in the generic category any day of the week and twice on Sundays. I've never had any trouble building any magic system I wanted with Hero, and call it 90% of the time I don't have to add or modify any rules to do it. The other 10% of the time just tells me even Hero isn't perfect, but I knew that. What I'd love to see from GURPS is a supplement that lets you build your own magical system instead of (or in addition to, really) a book full of take 'em or leave 'em spells. Pete ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8labup$3u9co$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8lanj1$433r7$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 11 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 14:35:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 964276526 166.82.1.7 (Sat, 22 Jul 2000 10:35:26 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 10:35:26 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:12995 S. John Ross wrote: >But, as a counterpoint, can you name too many other RPG libraries that >have _more_ magic systems in the rulebooks than GURPS does? Well, Fudge has nine published in book form, and more to come ... -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | "Tigers add panache and savoir faire to any sos@vnet.net | social occasion." Plymouth, NH, USA | -Hobbes www.io.com/~sos | ###### From: voxel@theramp.net (Bryant Berggren) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:09:25 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 61 Message-ID: <3979ea79.100687328@news.theramp.net> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kollb$eq7@journal.concentric.net> <3978797c.2996459@news.giganews.com> <8la9n3$k96$1@news.iastate.edu> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13030 On 21 Jul 2000 19:53:07 GMT, owenpat@iastate.edu (Owen Reynolds) wrote: > GURP's magic system has made me realize how ad hoc other systems >often are. How stupid is it that in D&D you can know "Fireball" without >knowing "affects normal fires" or "burning hands"? and how dumb is it that >there's no roll to place a fireball where you want it? It's not stupid at all. Consider the wide variety of what I'd call "coffeebook magic" in fiction -- you have a big fat book full of esoteric, unconnected spells, and the hero flips through (often bemoaning the lack of an index, though not in such words) until they locate something appropriate. "Ah, here we go -- 'The Spell of True Love'. Let's try it out!". Implicit in this model of magic is the idea that spells are self-contained packages, with no prior knowledge required to work them and no clue to other spells contained within them. Object-oriented magic, if you will. :] The GURPS "skills and then some" approach to magic spells is interesting and workable, but it's just as arbitrary as anyone else's, and can't help it -- when you're dealing with pure speculation, one person's hand-waving is as good as the next's. > My biggest "complaint" is it seems odd the Generic, Universal system >has 1 fixed magic system (save for GURPs WoD:Mage, I guess.) Well, the thing to remember is that GURPS is a trademark, and trademarks by U.S. law are not allowed to be purely descriptive terms. I can't trademark the name "Oat Meal" for my brand of oatmeal, for instance. Ergo, the one thing that GURPS *can not* be is a truly generic and universal roleplaying system. Seriously, I tend to think that the GURPS creators missed the boat on one issue: despite all the fair criticism that can be leveled at it, the HERO System (i.e. Champions) took two steps which strike me as The Right Thing for anyone attempting to design a "universal" system: 1) It started with superheroes, which is the closest you get to a "universal" genre. Characters from pretty much any other genre have parallels in the published superheroic realm. 2) It concentrated on providing game-mechanic solutions and let the gameplayers figure out how to apply them -- which is to say, it actually *is* "generic". ObTopic: as I said, HERO itself has some fair criticisms to be made. The 3 worst features (IMO, of course): 1) Terribly over-discounted characteristics, and terribly undiscounted skills. 2) Glaring "sweet spots" in the characteristic scale (INT being the worst, where only values ending in 3 or 8 have any game effect). 3) Mental Powers like telepathy and mind control being implemented as "fire and forget" effects rather than the continuing "log in and log out" style that seems to be used in 99% of all source material. And those are, of course, just the top 3 for me. BRB ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:33:04 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 55 Message-ID: <8lcstg$k4p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kollb$eq7@journal.concentric.net> <3978797c.2996459@news.giganews.com> <8la9n3$k96$1@news.iastate.edu> <3978b139.1131899@news.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.33.19 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Jul 22 19:33:04 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x55.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.192.33.19 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsd_anderson Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13023 In article <3978b139.1131899@news.giganews.com>, clarkrs@mindspring.com wrote: > On 21 Jul 2000 19:53:07 GMT, owenpat@iastate.edu (Owen Reynolds) > wrote: > > >>>3 Worst features of My Favorite Games > >>>GURPS > >>> > >>>1) Magic system sucks out loud > >>I really think I am the only person who likes the GURPS magic system. > >>That's not to say that I haven't altered the hell out of it when I > >>play, but I actually like the base more than most systems. > > > > GURP's magic system has made me realize how ad hoc other systems > >often are. How stupid is it that in D&D you can know "Fireball" without > >knowing "affects normal fires" or "burning hands"? and how dumb is it that > >there's no roll to place a fireball where you want it? > > [An aside, I always imagined a mage casting a fireball, saying "5 > >meters" and having to apologize as it went off right behind the fighters > >holding off the horde of orcs.] > > > > It is probably too easy to buy one spell to 20-25, but it's easy to > >modify. I know one GM who lets you buy a spell up to the level of ALL > >prereqs in the chain +1 (so to have the dehydrate combat spell at 25, you > >need to have about 6 other spells at 24,) and all spells cost at least 1/2 > >a point to cast and maintain (0-cost spells can get a little out-of- hand.) > > There are lots of other easy ways to adjust the system. > > > > My biggest "complaint" is it seems odd the Generic, Universal system > >has 1 fixed magic system (save for GURPs WoD:Mage, I guess.) > > The game also only has one supers system and only one psionics system, > it's just that for both of these they provide tools to alter the > system (power ads/disads; pside effects) while the magic system is > basically presented as is. Without leaving the Magic book, I see Rune Magic, Improvised Magic and alchemy as ways of doing different magical type characters. Stepping beyond the Magic book, Religion provides another venue, Celtic Myth sort of does, Voodoo very definitely does. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Peter Meilinger Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 23 Jul 2000 02:16:54 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8ldkim$ktd$1@news3.bu.edu> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8labup$3u9co$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8lanj1$433r7$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8lbcgd$1le$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8lcamv$5p9$1@news3.bu.edu> <8ldef0$47q6e$3@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> X-Trace: news3.bu.edu 964318614 21421 128.197.153.30 (23 Jul 2000 02:16:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@bu.edu User-Agent: tin/1.4-19991113 ("No Labels") (UNIX) (AIX/4-2) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.via.net!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news.bu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13021 S. John Ross wrote: : | Well, this isn't necessarily a fair question - GURPS claims to be : | a generic rules system that lets you play in any world you can : | imagine. The fact that I can make up my own magic rules if I don't : | want to use the GURPS default version doesn't mean they're right - : | I could do that with any game, generic or not. : You misunderstand. I'm pointing to the fact that you have a huge handful of : different magic systems in existing GURPS books to choose from. I never once : mentioned making up your own. Fair enough. But if GURPS wants to be truly Universal and Generic, it should have rules that help me make up my own magic system in case the ones offered don't fit my conception. In my opinion, of course. That's one of the reasons I tend to prefer Hero to GURPS, at least for the game mechanics side. As source material, GURPS has every other game on the market beat hands down. Again, in my opinion. Pete ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8lanj1$433r7$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8ldeeu$47q6e$2@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 16 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 13:01:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 964357262 166.82.1.7 (Sun, 23 Jul 2000 09:01:02 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 09:01:02 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!news.man.lodz.pl!news.man.poznan.pl!news.ipartners.pl!newsfeed.formus.pl!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13029 S. John Ross wrote: >| >But, as a counterpoint, can you name too many other RPG libraries that >| >have _more_ magic systems in the rulebooks than GURPS does? >| >| Well, Fudge has nine published in book form, and more to come ... > >Yes. But does Fudge qualify as "too many other RPGs?" :) It does to its detractors. Oh wait, no it doesn't - they don't even consider it an RPG come to think of it ... -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | "Tigers add panache and savoir faire to any sos@vnet.net | social occasion." Plymouth, NH, USA | -Hobbes www.io.com/~sos | ###### X-Originating-Host: 194.192.22.33 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 23 From: metal-dog Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <36c19c00.9f1a334a@usw-ex0105-038.remarq.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <24bf4534.0520aa8b@usw-ex0107-055.remarq.com> <058d7bf4.bbc418a6@usw-ex0105-038.remarq.com> <1c75f55f.cb6b8d64@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com> Bytes: 725 X-Wren-Trace: eE5rQ0JbHFYdA19SSgICQ1NaflFPRAtMRkNIQQlZWAMBGVcbDl8CEgwdGAUTXQ== Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:03:48 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.38 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 964372700 10.0.2.38 (Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:18:20 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:18:20 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13046 "Mitch Wilson" wrote: >Ah, but those power gains are my favorite part of the game! Call me a >munchkin, but who wouldn't want to become a Lord of Creation? :) Well, it's not so much the power gains themselves as their "inexplicability"... >If you're anywhere near Newport Beach I'll play with ya :) > > >MitchW > I don't know where Newport Beach is located, but if it's on the continent, that I think it's on, I'm sadly not anywhere near it at all, unless you use a very broad definition indeed of the word "near". ;) ----------------------------------------------------------- Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8labup$3u9co$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8lanj1$433r7$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> Organization: Illuminati Online X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: jeffj@fnord.io.com (Dr Nuncheon) Lines: 38 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:06:54 CDT X-Trace: sv2-hygrylCh7zRiPQKTGZ8pmF0MZpDrnghzgV2e2BsfkdRosZEwUItdY+Y56jus8Ev5YESXqLo/SE7CPcD!581jDOEtXgeX02XAlho7SgdO8co= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 16:06:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13085 In article <8lanj1$433r7$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de>, S. John Ross wrote: >| That to me says more "official" than "default". > >Fair enough; just different definitions of what "official" means, in that >case. But, as a counterpoint, can you name too many other RPG libraries that >have _more_ magic systems in the rulebooks than GURPS does? And had I not >thrown GURPS Black Magic back in their face, there would already be three >more :) Hmm, a challenge. Let's see. I'll only count ones with actual different rules systems rather than just differing effects. Easy first: White Wolf has too many to count. Hedge Magic, Vampiric Thaumaturgy, "True" Magic, Hekau (Mummy) Magic, Werewolf Rites, and I know I forgot one or two. That's not counting Disciplines/Gifts/Cantrips/all that crap, either. AD&D has Cleric and Magic-User, plus Wild Magic (I think there are differences?) and in D&D3e they're going to have Sorcerors. That's right up there. I'm sure there are world-specific systems for places like Krynn and the Dark Sun world, too, but I'm not sure how different they are. Amber had a bunch, but I'm not sure what qualifies under "different rules systems". Still, it had Pattern, Logrus, Sorcery, Trump, and Words of Power, if I remember right. I'd need to be at home with my RPG shelf for more. Anyway, my view is that if GURPS Magic were the default rather than the "official", it wouldn't have been shoehorned in to places it shouldn't have been, like Discworld... J -- "Boy, you lose one measly continent and people | Jeff Johnston just won't let you forget about it." - Kenneth Hite | "Suppressed Transmissions", _Pyramid_ 5/12/00 | jeffj @ io.com ###### From: owenpat@iastate.edu (Owen Reynolds) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 24 Jul 2000 20:38:19 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa, USA Lines: 38 Message-ID: <8li9fr$h67$1@news.iastate.edu> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kollb$eq7@journal.concentric.net> <3978797c.2996459@news.giganews.com> <8la9n3$k96$1@news.iastate.edu> <3978b139.1131899@news.giganews.com> <8lcstg$k4p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: isua3.iastate.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!owenpat Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13146 >> My biggest "complaint" is it seems odd the Generic, Universal system >>has 1 fixed magic system (save for GURPs WoD:Mage, I guess.) >> SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> writes: > Without leaving the Magic book, I see Rune Magic, Improvised Magic >and alchemy as ways of doing different magical type characters. They are merely modifications to the 1 fixed magic system. Improvised magic is for mages who know "official" GURPs spells. Even if you get around that, it uses the "official" spells as a baseline. Rune magic is a variant of improvised magic. The sidebars on page 91 and 93 clearly explain how Rune magic is another way of casting the base spells. Alchemy is a skill with a list of potions. It's hardly an alternate magic system. He mentions poetic magic, but that's just silly. Fun to do sometimes, but "say a poem and the GM decides what happens" is hardly a magic system. > Stepping beyond the Magic book, Religion provides another venue, >Celtic Myth sort of does, Voodoo very definitely does. I won't be reading every GURPs supliment to see if it does have a different, complete magic system. But, how complete is Voodoo? Is it based on GURPs magic? For example, in the Conan books Thoth-Ammon seemed to have a limit on how often he could cast _each_ spell, but GURPs Conan just has new spells that work the same way as the regular GURPs spells. I'm not saying GURPs sucks because of this, or even that the 1 magic system can't be changed to be very different in different worlds. I'm just surprised that there is no book: "GURPS competely different magic system II." -- Owen Reynolds owenpat@iastate.edu ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <3978b139.1131899@news.giganews.com> <8lcstg$k4p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8li9fr$h67$1@news.iastate.edu> Organization: Illuminati Online X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: jeffj@fnord.io.com (Dr Nuncheon) Lines: 22 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 16:30:33 CDT X-Trace: sv2-6TyHlGAuZtgHDgQAObPgiGzxtTO8dJBB+S9cvswhrug6MSSNOxgzsS/z9QZXvX18C+OHhG4OVvQO786!e75M4kWE+1nhZfcTwDgAhbEjt9U= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:30:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13195 In article <8li9fr$h67$1@news.iastate.edu>, Owen Reynolds wrote: > >> Stepping beyond the Magic book, Religion provides another venue, >>Celtic Myth sort of does, Voodoo very definitely does. > > I won't be reading every GURPs supliment to see if it does have a >different, complete magic system. But, how complete is Voodoo? Is it >based on GURPs magic? Define 'complete'? It doesn't have all the effects you'd find in GURPS Magic or AD&D, but it has a sufficient set of effects for what it's suposed to be. And it's about as based on GURPS Magic as GURPS Mage is - which is to say, not at all. J -- "Boy, you lose one measly continent and people | Jeff Johnston just won't let you forget about it." - Kenneth Hite | "Suppressed Transmissions", _Pyramid_ 5/12/00 | jeffj @ io.com Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <3978b139.1131899@news.giganews.com> <8lcstg$k4p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8li9fr$h67$1@news.iastate.edu> Organization: Illuminati Online X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: jeffj@fnord.io.com (Dr Nuncheon) Lines: 22 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 16:30:33 CDT X-Trace: sv2-6TyHlGAuZtgHDgQAObPgiGzxtTO8dJBB+S9cvswhrug6MSSNOxgzsS/z9QZXvX18C+OHhG4OVvQO786!e75M4kWE+1nhZfcTwDgAhbEjt9U= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:30:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13195 In article <8li9fr$h67$1@news.iastate.edu>, Owen Reynolds wrote: > >> Stepping beyond the Magic book, Religion provides another venue, >>Celtic Myth sort of does, Voodoo very definitely does. > > I won't be reading every GURPs supliment to see if it does have a >different, complete magic system. But, how complete is Voodoo? Is it >based on GURPs magic? Define 'complete'? It doesn't have all the effects you'd find in GURPS Magic or AD&D, but it has a sufficient set of effects for what it's suposed to be. And it's about as based on GURPS Magic as GURPS Mage is - which is to say, not at all. J -- "Boy, you lose one measly continent and people | Jeff Johnston just won't let you forget about it." - Kenneth Hite | "Suppressed Transmissions", _Pyramid_ 5/12/00 | jeffj @ io.com ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 24 Jul 2000 23:27:58 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 11 Message-ID: <8lijdu$5jr$7@sshuraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <8li9fr$h67$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhdze.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: sshuraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com 964481278 5755 149.174.88.251 (24 Jul 2000 23:27:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 2000 23:27:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13160 > Alchemy is a skill with a list of potions. It's hardly an > alternate magic system. It can be used as such. Admittedly it's easier if the Quick Alchmy rules presented in Wizards are used so that elixirs can be prepped in a matter of minutes (120 seconds per day of normal prep time normally needed, skill penalties are doubled when quick brewing). You need ingredients, prep time and preselection of what magical effects to bring, expanding the elixir list certainly won't hurt either, but you can make a perfectly good wizard type out of an alchemist. ###### From: arbane@idt.net (Arbane the Terrible) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:04:28 GMT Organization: IDT (Best News In The World) Lines: 13 Message-ID: <77870678.579429@news.idt.net> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <1c8f03a4.37112bfe@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> Reply-To: arbane@idt.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-51.ts-1.den.idt.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.voicenet.com!newsin.iconnet.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13110 Feng Shui: 1: Background suggests it's possible for one person to be alive in two junctures at once (1996 and 2056), creating the sort of paradoxes the whole Netherworld idea was supposed to avoid. 2: Extremely unrealistic damage-handling is _normally_ a plus, but it makes it nigh-impossible to do Chambara-style sword duels, or any other 'sudden death' showdowns. 3: Poor ability scaling beyond human maximum--the 60-foot tall Thing With 1000 Tongues is only _twice_ as strong as a Big Bruiser? (This makes it hard to do mecha.) ###### Message-ID: <397D24DB.F31295C9@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kollb$eq7@journal.concentric.net> <3978797c.2996459@news.giganews.com> <8la9n3$k96$1@news.iastate.edu> <3978b139.1131899@news.giganews.com> <8lcstg$k4p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8li9fr$h67$1@news.iastate.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:25:47 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.237.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 964502642 207.71.237.200 (Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:24:02 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:24:02 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:24:02 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13107 Owen Reynolds wrote: > > I won't be reading every GURPs supliment to see if it does have a > different, complete magic system. But, how complete is Voodoo? Is it > based on GURPs magic? > For example, in the Conan books Thoth-Ammon seemed to have a limit > on how often he could cast _each_ spell, but GURPs Conan just has new spells > that work the same way as the regular GURPs spells. Another iteration of this tendency was in the otherwise excellent "Diskworld" sourcebook, where they in effect said "ignore what the books say about magic- this is how it works". Of course it would have been a major chore to come up with Diskworld magic in addition to everything else, but GURPS Magic simply didn't fit the bill AFAIC. -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2000Jul25.035454.17692@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CSLab, University of Toronto References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8lanj1$433r7$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8lbcgd$1le$1@news.service.uci.edu> Date: 25 Jul 2000 07:54:54 GMT Lines: 38 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13201 In article <8lbcgd$1le$1@news.service.uci.edu>, John Kim wrote: >>[...] But, as a counterpoint, can you name too many other RPG >>libraries that have _more_ magic systems in the rulebooks than GURPS >>does? [...] > How many does _Ars Magica_ have now? I know it has hermetic, >shamanic, hedge, and kabbalistic which are all quite distinct. There isn't a single "hedge" magic system; "hedge magic" is a general term referring disparagingly to non-Hermeti cmagic. The actual Hedge Magic supplement gives four systems (Cunning Folk, Natural Magicians, Spirit Masters and Ascetics) plus vague rules on creating your own. There are lots more scattered through other books: Scottish gruagachan in Lion of the North, Slavic volkhvy (pagan priests) in The Dragon and The Bear, Norse runic magicians and Finnish wind wizards in Ultima Thule, and Jewish baal shem and necromancers in Kabbalah (which also covers kabbalists, of course, but you mentioned them already). Of course, not all of these are completely distinct. Baal shem and cunning folk are almost completely identical, and natural magicians are sort of watered-down Hermetic magi. Wind wizards also borrow the Hermetic spell guidelines for determining the difficulty of their feats, and Gruagachan have some abilities in common with cunning folk and baal shem. I'd call it somewhere from 9 to 11 distinct systems, depending on how picky you are. >I'm not >sure about the divine-related magic and infernal-related magic. The infernal sourcebook gives rules for infernally-tainted magi, but that's a modification of the Hermetic system, not really a new system. The divine sourcebook gives similar modifications for Pious Magi, but also contains rules allowing clergy to produce supernatural effects; that might be considered a magic system. ###### X-Originating-Host: 213.237.18.244 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 34 From: metal-dog Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <1de6cfce.40f1cc0b@usw-ex0103-024.remarq.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <1c8f03a4.37112bfe@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <77870678.579429@news.idt.net> Bytes: 1142 X-Wren-Trace: eM3owMHYn9WegNzRyYGBwNDZ/dLMx4jPxcDLwora24CCmdyfjd+LlI+dkYaR2Yo= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:28:10 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.24 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 964550562 10.0.2.24 (Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:42:42 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:42:42 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13309 arbane@idt.net (Arbane the Terrible) wrote: >Feng Shui: >1: Background suggests it's possible for one person to be alive in >two junctures at once (1996 and 2056), creating the sort of paradoxes >the whole Netherworld idea was supposed to avoid. > >2: Extremely unrealistic damage-handling is _normally_ a plus, but it >makes it nigh-impossible to do Chambara-style sword duels, or any >other 'sudden death' showdowns. And may I add: There's no way a villain can knock a PC out without sending him into intensive hospital care. This doesn't reflect the genre too well, where heroes frequently get knocked out cold without having to go to the hospital afterwards. >3: Poor ability scaling beyond human maximum--the 60-foot tall Thing >With 1000 Tongues is only _twice_ as strong as a Big Bruiser? (This >makes it hard to do mecha.) Well, it's not really designed for mecha, now is it? For heroic-style Mecha, I strongly recommend Mekton Zeta. ----------------------------------------------------------- Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games From: Bill Dowling Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <1c8f03a4.37112bfe@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <77870678.579429@news.idt.net> <1de6cfce.40f1cc0b@usw-ex0103-024.remarq.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:43:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.244.227.82 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 964554227 209.244.227.82 (Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:43:47 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:43:47 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13288 in article 1de6cfce.40f1cc0b@usw-ex0103-024.remarq.com, metal-dog at metal-dogNOmeSPAM@zdnetmail.com.invalid wrote on 7/25/00 2:28 PM: >> 2: Extremely unrealistic damage-handling is _normally_ a plus, > but it >> makes it nigh-impossible to do Chambara-style sword duels, or > any >> other 'sudden death' showdowns. > And may I add: There's no way a villain can knock a PC out > without > sending him into intensive hospital care. This doesn't reflect > the > genre too well, where heroes frequently get knocked out cold > without having to go to the hospital afterwards. Another problem with the combat mechanics: Autofire is only beneficial when used against named characters and hurts your chances of taking out mooks. Seems to me like it should be the opposite. Autofire should be used to mow down mooks left and right, and should not be much more effective than just shooting a single bullet against named opposition. ###### From: dddawson@lpl.arizona.edu (Doug Dawson) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 25 Jul 2000 20:00:45 GMT Organization: Lunar And Planetary Laboratory Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8lkrld$8m5$1@news.ccit.arizona.edu> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <1c8f03a4.37112bfe@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <77870678.579429@news.idt.net> Reply-To: dddawson@lpl.arizona.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: hindmost.lpl.arizona.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!dddawson Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13297 Arbane the Terrible (arbane@idt.net) wrote: : Feng Shui: : 1: Background suggests it's possible for one person to be alive in : two junctures at once (1996 and 2056), creating the sort of paradoxes : the whole Netherworld idea was supposed to avoid. Well,I'm not sure about this. I think that if you allow there to be n copies of any person or object (where n is the number of available junctures) then paradoxes don't happen. The key is that entering the Netherworld effectively severs you from your past; once you've done that, no changes in the past affect you. So, person lives from 1850 to 2056, not entering the netherworld until 2056. They go back to 1850 and kill themselves: no problem. They go back and convince their 1850 self to enter the netherworld: two copies of them, one who entered the netherworld in 1850, one who entered in 2056. (This is more severe for objects, since it's easier for them to exist in multiple junctures.) : 2: Extremely unrealistic damage-handling is _normally_ a plus, but it : makes it nigh-impossible to do Chambara-style sword duels, or any : other 'sudden death' showdowns. Agreed. I once had an NPC trying to kill a noncombatant named character before the PCs could arrive...by the rules, failed hopelessly. Someone else commented on the lack of KO rules...I find that the new KO rule in Golden Comeback works pretty well. ###### From: Adam Benedict Canning Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 18:38:49 +0100 Lines: 42 Message-ID: <39846829.37127BF5@rdg.ac.uk> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kns8i$9tg@edrn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: supc603.rdg.ac.uk (134.225.84.57) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 964978731 5740947 134.225.84.57 (16 [42006]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!supc603.rdg.ac.UK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13678 Blackberry wrote: > > In article , "Art says... > > > >"Blackberry" wrote ... > >> New thread alert! Something to discuss besides being tired of > >> all that crap. > >> > >> What are the top 3 worst features (in your opinion) of your > >> favorite RPGs? > >> > >> Hero: > > > >>> snip << > > > >> GURPS: > > > >>> snip << > > > >Um, You only listed two. [...] > > Yes. I listed two *games*. Three *features* each. :) > > Here's a third, so I've now listed my 3 worst features of my 3 favorite RPGs: > > RuneQuest: > 1) Sorcery has never worked. Are you including SP's Presence version > 2) It's possible to take 20 arrows through the hand and still be fine (except > for your hand). > 3) In Glorantha, anyone who's made Rune-level is vastly above anyone at Initiate > or Lay Member level in terms of power; a mixed party of Rune-levels and > non-Rune-levels is almost unworkable. I've had little problem, but then the Rune levels tend to be Uleria or Voria or Eurmal cultists. Adam ###### From: Adam Benedict Canning Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 18:48:32 +0100 Lines: 47 Message-ID: <39846A70.6051C131@rdg.ac.uk> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <396F319B.1F187CE0@myriad.net> <396F6B6F.4977840E@research.bell-labs.com> <396F63FA.A0AF1D5E@myriad.net> <39734275.BEB5C702@research.bell-labs.com> <8kvos4$bre$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: supc603.rdg.ac.uk (134.225.84.57) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 964979314 5722285 134.225.84.57 (16 [42006]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!supc603.rdg.ac.UK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13676 Owen Reynolds wrote: > > EarthDawn is the only fantasy system I use right now and I like "all > stats are used somewhere in combat" (which D&D is just now doing,) "mages > get to roll dice a lot in combat, too," the background and the idea of > the die mechanics. > Having said that, three things I don't like: > > 1) It's silly!!! The primary curative spell is "Heat Food." How does > that heal, you say? It makes food not just hot, but _piping hot_. > I see a Domino's pizza commercial somewhere in there. I found primary healing came from recovery checks and the Lightbringer talent, plus the recovery coma spell. > The primary defensive spell for Elementalist mages is to summon > an invisible flying wheelchair. You need to scream like a bird, drink > imaginary tea, pick your magical "laser dot" ... to use many skills. Again, not a spell I've seen my parties elementalist cast. but then he relys on armour and keeping closer combat types between him and the enemy. His favourite defensive spell was the Predator style cloaking one. > 3) Unbalanced skills are "features." The Dispel Magic spell is 1st level > and they make a point of saying that even swinging a sword and dodging > count as magical and can be dispeled. huh? > I'm trying to imagine a 1st level D&D spell that negates all pluses to > hit or makes you cast all spells like you were 1st level. > > The "taunt" skill works on anything and makes it mad, OK, and reduces > attack/damage/spells... by about 1/3!! > Didn't you know that the best way to fight anything is to tease it and > make it helpless? You missed Cutting Remark, Which can kill targets through Sarcasm. > I just realized one of my players is a 1st level weaponsmith who can > make swords +3 to damage for the entire party!! (average weapon damage > is step 10, so this is like maybe +2 in D&D terms.) Weaponsmiths are total unbalanced, I'll Agree. Adam ###### From: Adam Benedict Canning Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 18:55:57 +0100 Lines: 33 Message-ID: <39846C2D.507EB5E1@rdg.ac.uk> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kollb$eq7@journal.concentric.net> <3978797c.2996459@news.giganews.com> <8la9n3$k96$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: supc603.rdg.ac.uk (134.225.84.57) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 964979758 5722285 134.225.84.57 (16 [42006]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!supc603.rdg.ac.UK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13685 Owen Reynolds wrote: > > >>3 Worst features of My Favorite Games > >>GURPS > >> > >>1) Magic system sucks out loud > >I really think I am the only person who likes the GURPS magic system. > >That's not to say that I haven't altered the hell out of it when I > >play, but I actually like the base more than most systems. > > GURP's magic system has made me realize how ad hoc other systems > often are. How stupid is it that in D&D you can know "Fireball" without > knowing "affects normal fires" or "burning hands"? and how dumb is it that > there's no roll to place a fireball where you want it? > [An aside, I always imagined a mage casting a fireball, saying "5 > meters" and having to apologize as it went off right behind the fighters > holding off the horde of orcs.] > > It is probably too easy to buy one spell to 20-25, but it's easy to > modify. I know one GM who lets you buy a spell up to the level of ALL > prereqs in the chain +1 (so to have the dehydrate combat spell at 25, you > need to have about 6 other spells at 24,) and all spells cost at least 1/2 > a point to cast and maintain (0-cost spells can get a little out-of-hand.) > There are lots of other easy ways to adjust the system. > > My biggest "complaint" is it seems odd the Generic, Universal system > has 1 fixed magic system (save for GURPs WoD:Mage, I guess.) And Psionics, and Rune magic and the various magic systems in Fantasy 2. Adam ###### From: Adam Benedict Canning Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 18:58:18 +0100 Lines: 26 Message-ID: <39846CBA.91C1B287@rdg.ac.uk> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8labup$3u9co$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8lanj1$433r7$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8lbcgd$1le$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: supc603.rdg.ac.uk (134.225.84.57) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 964979899 5722285 134.225.84.57 (16 [42006]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!supc603.rdg.ac.UK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13684 John Kim wrote: > > S. John Ross wrote: > >Fair enough; just different definitions of what "official" means, in > >that case. But, as a counterpoint, can you name too many other RPG > >libraries that have _more_ magic systems in the rulebooks than GURPS > >does? > > I suppose it depends on what you count as a magic system. > Nearly all GURPS supplements just have different sets of spells. > There are a couple of options in the back of _Magic_, but all but one > are basically just sidebars or modifications to existing magic. The > other exceptions that I know of would be _Voodoo_, _Mage_, and possibly > _Fantasy II_ (although the magic in FII is more like sets of spells or > items than a different system). So if we're being conservative: 4. > > How many does _Ars Magica_ have now? I know it has hermetic, > shamanic, hedge, and kabbalistic which are all quite distinct. I'm not > sure about the divine-related magic and infernal-related magic. Wind knots, Rune Magic, Demonic soul essence manipulation, Juno worship, Goetic Sorcery, ad a few more. Adam ###### From: "Klaus Æ. Mogensen" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8labup$3u9co$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8lanj1$433r7$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8lbcgd$1le$1@news.service.uci.edu> <39846CBA.91C1B287@rdg.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:33:07 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.47.137.144 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 965048403 195.47.137.144 (Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:00:03 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:00:03 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!oleane.net!oleane!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13655 S. John Ross wrote: >Fair enough; just different definitions of what "official" means, in >that case. But, as a counterpoint, can you name too many other RPG >libraries that have _more_ magic systems in the rulebooks than GURPS >does? Fantasy Hero comes to mind. It offers a dozen or so magic systems in one rulebook, with guidelines for making more using the metasystem the others are based on (the Hero System Power rules). While the _effects_ of magic may be similar between the systems, the _workings_ of magic vary as much as the GURPS systems. -- Klaus Æ. Mogensen http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius "Now I know." "What do you know?" "I know that Miranda is a Botticelli angel." ###### From: "Klaus Æ. Mogensen" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kns8i$9tg@edrn.newsguy.com> <39846829.37127BF5@rdg.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:54:18 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.47.137.144 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 965048404 195.47.137.144 (Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:00:04 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:00:04 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.tele.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13656 HERO System: 1: The characteristics are unbalanced, and some are not graduated enough for normal humans. 2: The Power Creation system is a bit of a mouthful for new players, and is easy to abuse (especially when using Frameworks). 3: The Speed Chart is a bit clunky, and can be abused by tactics with no real-world correspondence. MERP: 1: The magic is very un-Tolkienesque. 2: Character creation is rather too complex for what should be a relatively simple game. 3: Overall, the system could be streamlined a bit without losing any flexibility in play. HarnMaster (2nd edition): 1: The point system for making characters is too simple (can be abused). 2: The rules for overlapping armor favors many thin layers over one thick. 3: Weapons break far too easily in combat. Fixes for (2) and (3) can be found on http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius/Harn1.htm -- Klaus Æ. Mogensen http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius "Now I know." "What do you know?" "I know that Miranda is a Botticelli angel." ###### X-Originating-Host: 194.192.22.33 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Lines: 11 From: metal-dog Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <112ccb6a.706ed0eb@usw-ex0105-038.remarq.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8labup$3u9co$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8lanj1$433r7$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8lbcgd$1le$1@news.service.uci.edu> <39846CBA.91C1B287@rdg.ac.uk> <8m3vo6$5hkad$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> Bytes: 400 X-Wren-Trace: eLGUvL2k46ni/KCttf39vKylga6wu/Szuby3vvamp/z+5qjk8aD97fPi5/rsog== Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 06:51:42 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.38 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 965052394 10.0.2.38 (Mon, 31 Jul 2000 07:06:34 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 07:06:34 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13667 There's also Darkurthe Legends. It has Wizardry/Rune Magic (spoken and written versions of the same system), channeling, healing, homesong and a few others which currently escape me. I'm at work and don't have my books handy. ----------------------------------------------------------- Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com ###### From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:09:47 -0400 Organization: Prometheus Corp. Lines: 10 Message-ID: <398588AB.5C4C@erols.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kns8i$9tg@edrn.newsguy.com> <39846829.37127BF5@rdg.ac.uk> Reply-To: richberg@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: LWuJfYI5N5mNS1iW9hApI7L4R38ejSUCUEXtHhrRasc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jul 2000 14:12:00 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13672 Klaus Æ. Mogensen wrote: > > MERP: > 1: The magic is very un-Tolkienesque. > 2: Character creation is rather too complex for what should > be a relatively simple game. > 3: Overall, the system could be streamlined a bit without > losing any flexibility in play. 4. Characters get maimed way too quickly. ###### From: woodelf@rpg.net (woodelf) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Message-ID: References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8labup$3u9co$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> <8lanj1$433r7$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 X-RPGIndex: http://www.upl.cs.wisc.edu/~woodelf/RPG/ X-Face: '4Tx(~4?(vNBKx,.~WY@9[=!])d/#(Ay5#igUKMH;=#Z|vmC`%[2sj*K9IWP! 1o69Y;dgtfdQ~q&Ft>EsU!NV^)~qc`!W6l#vTxv4$)[Am$w@^QElc0>"%|Jz^)UL=DO? PlZNN)ippo}f|vf3Q=T=dxO+uN-U5BnlTv5~FtVgB Lines: 42 Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 04:58:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.10.218.135 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 965105928 24.10.218.135 (Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:58:48 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:58:48 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13693 In article , jeffj@fnord.io.com (Dr Nuncheon) wrote: > In article <8lanj1$433r7$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de>, > S. John Ross wrote: > >Fair enough; just different definitions of what "official" means, in that > >case. But, as a counterpoint, can you name too many other RPG libraries that > >have _more_ magic systems in the rulebooks than GURPS does? And had I not > >thrown GURPS Black Magic back in their face, there would already be three > >more :) > > Hmm, a challenge. Let's see. I'll only count ones with actual different > rules systems rather than just differing effects. > > Easy first: White Wolf has too many to count. Hedge Magic, Vampiric > Thaumaturgy, "True" Magic, Hekau (Mummy) Magic, Werewolf Rites, and I know > I forgot one or two. That's not counting Disciplines/Gifts/Cantrips/all > that crap, either. > > AD&D has Cleric and Magic-User, plus Wild Magic (I think there are > differences?) and in D&D3e they're going to have Sorcerors. That's right > up there. I'm sure there are world-specific systems for places like Krynn > and the Dark Sun world, too, but I'm not sure how different they are. in all fairness, most of those systems are pretty much the same. frex, clerics and M-Us both simply choose a spell from a list, "memorize" it, and then later cross it off the list when the use it. all that's really different is different lists, clerics with low Wis have a chance to fail to cast the spell, and M-Us with low Int have a chance to fail to learn the spell in the first place. except for the spell point system in Spells & Magic, they're all pretty much the same ,with little tweaks. Deadlands has really quite distinct systems for each kind of magic: hucksters, mad scientists, true faith (or whatever they call it), etc. -- woodelf <*> woodelf@rpg.net http://members.home.net/woodelph/ I did not realize that similarity was required for the exercise of compassion. --Delenn ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8lanj1$433r7$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de> Organization: Illuminati Online X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: jeffj@fnord.io.com (Dr Nuncheon) Lines: 46 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 07:33:57 CDT X-Trace: sv2-Krk1TjaNAWJQJDvbvN7jQDc2bo1T4Y9/ps34RaTGGqAqqGetTbFXYXiNiqWIh6L9pObBMYHR4Ps2sC+!Tv3O4fy2bTXoRJqIsqdm8FHgEj0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 12:33:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13736 In article , woodelf wrote: >In article , >jeffj@fnord.io.com (Dr Nuncheon) wrote: >> In article <8lanj1$433r7$1@ID-40196.news.cis.dfn.de>, >> S. John Ross wrote: > >> >Fair enough; just different definitions of what "official" means, in that >> >case. But, as a counterpoint, can you name too many other RPG libraries that >> >have _more_ magic systems in the rulebooks than GURPS does? And had I not >> >thrown GURPS Black Magic back in their face, there would already be three >> >more :) >> >> Hmm, a challenge. Let's see. I'll only count ones with actual different >> rules systems rather than just differing effects. >> >> Easy first: White Wolf has too many to count. Hedge Magic, Vampiric >> Thaumaturgy, "True" Magic, Hekau (Mummy) Magic, Werewolf Rites, and I know >> I forgot one or two. That's not counting Disciplines/Gifts/Cantrips/all >> that crap, either. >> >> AD&D has Cleric and Magic-User, plus Wild Magic (I think there are >> differences?) and in D&D3e they're going to have Sorcerors. That's right >> up there. I'm sure there are world-specific systems for places like Krynn >> and the Dark Sun world, too, but I'm not sure how different they are. > >in all fairness, most of those systems are pretty much the same. They're very similar, certainly, but so are GURPS Improvised Magic and Rune Magic. >frex, >clerics and M-Us both simply choose a spell from a list, "memorize" it, >and then later cross it off the list when the use it. I guess I ran my clerics and MUs with a little more difference. Clerics have the added complications of needing to please their god with the way they're acting and/or using the powers granted to them, and they don't always get to choose the spells they get - sometimes the deity decides "you get these spells' instead. There's more difference there than between some of the GURPS magic systems. J -- INTERNET SEEMS TO BE FULL OF MILLIONS OF | Jeff Johnston IDIOTS & LUNATICS ! ! - c2 (tsr00@my-deja.com) | jeffj @ io . com ###### From: Jason Mulligan Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 14:13:55 +1000 Organization: The University of Newcastle Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kns8i$9tg@edrn.newsguy.com> <39846829.37127BF5@rdg.ac.uk> <398588AB.5C4C@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c52h2-asy15.newcastle.edu.au X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30.1784 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!newshub1.rdc1.nsw.optushome.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!news.newcastle.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13854 In article <398588AB.5C4C@erols.com>, richberg@erols.com says... > Klaus Æ. Mogensen wrote: > > > > MERP: > > 1: The magic is very un-Tolkienesque. > > 2: Character creation is rather too complex for what should > > be a relatively simple game. > > 3: Overall, the system could be streamlined a bit without > > losing any flexibility in play. > > 4. Characters get maimed way too quickly. > Hmm...and the grittier combat system derived from RM was one of it's strong points I alsways though. As for character cretaion I thought it was a nice mix of simplicity and flexibility. I will admit that the magic system does need revising to make it more Tolkien-like though. ###### From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 07:53:35 -0400 Organization: Prometheus Corp. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <39880BBF.ED7@erols.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kns8i$9tg@edrn.newsguy.com> <39846829.37127BF5@rdg.ac.uk> <398588AB.5C4C@erols.com> Reply-To: richberg@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: bcpWHKlxu1zXJ91vly8vEOg+cwI6WL99dkEjVeoqiJ0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Aug 2000 11:55:53 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13848 Jason Mulligan wrote: > > In article <398588AB.5C4C@erols.com>, richberg@erols.com says... > > Klaus Æ. Mogensen wrote: > > > > > > MERP: > > > 1: The magic is very un-Tolkienesque. > > > 2: Character creation is rather too complex for what should > > > be a relatively simple game. > > > 3: Overall, the system could be streamlined a bit without > > > losing any flexibility in play. > > > > 4. Characters get maimed way too quickly. > > > > Hmm...and the grittier combat system derived from RM was one of it's > strong points I alsways though. Well, it didn't represent the source material very well. A lot of the party got traumatized in the trilogy, but few were maimed or slaughtered. ###### From: Graham Wills Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 13:00:03 -0500 Organization: Bell Laboratories Lines: 53 Message-ID: <398861A3.30D43237@research.bell-labs.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kns8i$9tg@edrn.newsguy.com> <39846829.37127BF5@rdg.ac.uk> <398588AB.5C4C@erols.com> <39880BBF.ED7@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: notmafia.research.bell-labs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------FAD434647115329DECA6DB87" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73C-SGI [en] (X11; U; IRIX64 6.5 IP27) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!207.24.196.41!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13952 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FAD434647115329DECA6DB87 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." wrote: > > > 4. Characters get maimed way too quickly. > > > > > > > Hmm...and the grittier combat system derived from RM was one of it's > > strong points I alsways though. > > Well, it didn't represent the source material very well. > > A lot of the party got traumatized in the trilogy, > but few were maimed or slaughtered. In MERP, the assumption is that you are playing a fairly normal person Normal people died by the bucketload in LoTR. Actually, there is little combat going on in LoTR for the point of view characters. Frodo, Sam, Pippin and Merry have about 1-2 fights each, and three them are so hurt they would have died without intervention. -- Graham Wills Data Visualization, Bell Labs gwills@research.bell-labs.com +1 (630) 979 7338 http://www.bell-labs.com/~gwills Silk for Calde! --------------FAD434647115329DECA6DB87 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="gwills.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Graham Wills Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="gwills.vcf" begin:vcard n:Wills;Graham x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Bell Laboratories;Software Production (Visualization Group) adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:gwills@research.bell-labs.com title:Member of Technical Staff note;quoted-printable:Internal: www-spr.research.bell-labs.com/~gwills=0D=0AExternal: www.bell-labs.com/~gwills=0D=0APersonal: willsfamily.org x-mozilla-cpt:;9408 fn:Graham Wills end:vcard --------------FAD434647115329DECA6DB87-- ###### From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 17:19:38 -0400 Organization: Prometheus Corp. Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3988906A.E66@erols.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kns8i$9tg@edrn.newsguy.com> <39846829.37127BF5@rdg.ac.uk> <398588AB.5C4C@erols.com> <39880BBF.ED7@erols.com> <398861A3.30D43237@research.bell-labs.com> Reply-To: richberg@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: zdAnFVrYbpCeJ/f/NmYhU9PsMpFhp1cn5PA3/BvRXWs= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Aug 2000 21:22:00 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13978 Graham Wills wrote: > > In MERP, the assumption is that you are playing a fairly normal person > Normal people died by the bucketload in LoTR. Wasn't aware of that. Where's the fun in that? Made for a tedious game when after one run half the party is crippled. ###### From: kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: 3 Aug 2000 00:53:22 GMT Organization: the Satellite of Love Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kns8i$9tg@edrn.newsguy.com> <39846829.37127BF5@rdg.ac.uk> <398588AB.5C4C@erols.com> <39880BBF.ED7@erols.com> <398861A3.30D43237@research.bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gecko.roadtoad.net X-Trace: news.fsr.net 965264002 88324 209.209.8.2 (3 Aug 2000 00:53:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@fsr.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Aug 2000 00:53:22 GMT Keywords: Hexapodia as the key insight X-X: http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/documents/x-headers.html x-no-productlinks: yes User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (FreeBSD) Cache-Post-Path: gecko!kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!rockie.attcanada.net!172.31.25.103!prairie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!12.127.17.144!attbt1.ip.att.net!news2.fsr.net!kamikaze Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13889 Wed, 02 Aug 2000 13:00:03 -0500 in <398861A3.30D43237@research.bell-labs.com>, Graham Wills spake: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. First thing we do, we shoot all the mimes. Turn that crapola off, Graham. >"Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." wrote: >> > > 4. Characters get maimed way too quickly. >> > > >> > Hmm...and the grittier combat system derived from RM was one of it's >> > strong points I alsways though. >> Well, it didn't represent the source material very well. >> A lot of the party got traumatized in the trilogy, >> but few were maimed or slaughtered. >In MERP, the assumption is that you are playing a fairly normal person >Normal people died by the bucketload in LoTR. >Actually, there is little combat going on in LoTR for the point of >view characters. Frodo, Sam, Pippin and Merry have about 1-2 fights >each, and three them are so hurt they would have died without >intervention. And even great heroes in LotR, who can challenge demigods, can be struck down by a single lucky arrow shot by a mere orc; and omnipotent elder dragons, too. Healing times in RM are a fairly close match to the story, too. IMO, Rolemaster does an excellent job of simulating the world itself. Even the magic isn't a problem - Alchemists, Astrologers, and a few other kinds of spell-users are very appropriate for the setting, especially prior to the late 3rd age, when Sauron's vision makes most people with any magic AFRAID to use it. There's certainly vast caches of magic items, enchanted swords by the bucketload. And while the Istari aren't human, flashy magic *is* possible in the setting, and appears to have been practiced by mortals and elves in earlier times. Where it fell down was that in 1st ed, they had no mechanics or even discussion of Sauron's eye, and no restrictions of the flashier magics to the Istari and elves. Oh, and adding clerics to a setting with almost no religion was... odd. Healers and Lay Healers make far more sense if you MUST have magical healing available. But the main reason some Tolkien fans can't stand it is that they're math-impaired hippies, and adding two-digit numbers is as far beyond them in the game as it is in their day jobs at McDonalds. -- Mark Hughes Disclaimer: I do not have an orbital mind control laser; you are free to post your own opinion, but be prepared to back it up, because I *will* call you on it if I think it's bullshit. That's how the Internet, and life, works. ###### From: Graham Wills Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Top 3 worst features of your favorite games Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:57:00 -0500 Organization: Bell Laboratories Lines: 58 Message-ID: <3989964C.C642301C@research.bell-labs.com> References: <8knah5$263u@edrn.newsguy.com> <8kns8i$9tg@edrn.newsguy.com> <39846829.37127BF5@rdg.ac.uk> <398588AB.5C4C@erols.com> <39880BBF.ED7@erols.com> <398861A3.30D43237@research.bell-labs.com> <3988906A.E66@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: twitch.research.bell-labs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------99DDBA1C6C2D871A7B3F765F" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73C-SGI [en] (X11; U; IRIX64 6.5 IP30) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!207.24.196.41!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:13955 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------99DDBA1C6C2D871A7B3F765F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." wrote: > > In MERP, the assumption is that you are playing a fairly normal person > > Normal people died by the bucketload in LoTR. > Wasn't aware of that. Where's the fun in that? > Made for a tedious game when after one run half the party is crippled. Bad GM or players too used to D&D. Starting characters should not be presented with fearsome foes like, say, two small orcs. The first combat I staged for my longest-running campaign was a group of six against an irate pig. They finally managed to realize that standing and fighting was a bad plan, took to the trees and filled it with enough arrows that it ran off. Also, GMs should make it clear to starting players that unless they parry, they will die. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but all-out attacking characters should make early funeral plans. Remember that in MERP, average people are level 3-5. Either start at that level, or make sure you remembers that everyone else *will* be better than you. - Graham -- Graham Wills Data Visualization, Bell Labs gwills@research.bell-labs.com +1 (630) 979 7338 http://www.bell-labs.com/~gwills Silk for Calde! --------------99DDBA1C6C2D871A7B3F765F Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="gwills.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Graham Wills Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="gwills.vcf" begin:vcard n:Wills;Graham x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Bell Laboratories;Software Production (Visualization Group) adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:gwills@research.bell-labs.com title:Member of Technical Staff note;quoted-printable:Internal: www-spr.research.bell-labs.com/~gwills=0D=0AExternal: www.bell-labs.com/~gwills=0D=0APersonal: willsfamily.org x-mozilla-cpt:;9408 fn:Graham Wills end:vcard --------------99DDBA1C6C2D871A7B3F765F--