From: banshee069@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Close combat questions. Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 18:51:10 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 87 Message-ID: <8ij5mr$95e$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> <393338d4.2999636@news.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.161.231.11 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Jun 18 18:51:10 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x67.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.161.231.11 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDbanshee069 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9917 In article <393338d4.2999636@news.ix.netcom.com>, tannim@spamtrap.netcom.com (tannim) wrote: > On Tue, 23 May 2000 15:45:39 +0200, Nis Haller Baggesen > wrote: > > >Well - With that broad a subject line, I better get specific now. > > >My main question is how much of an advantge is strength and size in > >close combat - Both with weapons and without weapons? > > Size is a definate advantage. Since all objects have a mass and > momemtum, it's harder for a smaller person to affect larger one with a > pure physical attack. This can be overcome with leverage, speed, or > angle of attack. Also, a larger person can put more power behind an > attack. > > >In RPG's close combat skill is based mainly on dexterity, and strength > >only supplies the damage. But it seems to me that it should be much > >harder to parry a forcefull blow than a weak one (obviously), and so I > >wondered if a sufficiently hard blow wont cut through any parry. On the > >other hand, how much can technique and agility make up for lack of > >strength with regard to parries and shieldblocks. > > > Technique and SKILL(experience) make up for strength and agility any > day of the week. That's why higher level characters can outfight > lower level ones with the same ability scores. As far as parrying a > blow, it's not always a brute strength exercise. It's altering the > motion of a weapon by deflecting it slightly to the side. It doesn't > require as much force as stopping a blow. > > >Likewise size mostlyu just give you hitpoins in rpgs, but shouldn't it > >also give you a combat advatage. If you have twice the reach of whoever > >you are fighting with, how will the other guy ever get close? > > Actually, the best "stock" for a fighter is average size. The smaller > someone is, the faster they can move their body. The larger they are, > the harder they can hit. Someone 1/2 between them gets the best of > both worlds. > > > > >Shouldn't weapons that have a high moment of inertia, such as axes or > >maces, be harder to deflect than lighter and more balanced weapons such > >as rapiers and sword? > Yes, that's the theory behind cutlasses and axes. But that doesn't > mean thay can't be parried. Also, it tends to make attacks by them > slower than attacks from the other weapons and tend to tire the > attacker faster. If you want to give inerta bonus, you should also > give speed and fatigue penalties. > > INteresting questions. Fighting in the SCA (www.sca.org) can give you a bit better idea about the answers. From my experience, when dealing with weapons in combat, most attacks are aimed at the head. In these situations there is no real defense or bennifit to one size than an other. As far as blocking an attack, yes strength does have quite a bit to do with the defense. A person tries to block a strong attack with a weak parry the result is only a reduction of impact, not complete elimination of damage. Axes are interesting because a skiller fighter could simply smack the ax blade, turning the weapon in the attacker's hands and removing the cutting surface from the damage. The defender could still be hit, but the damage would be reduced. There are three types of defenses that I would consider for any RPG: Dodge, Block, and Parry. The dodge maneuver is simply getting out of the way of the attack. A block is similar to using a shield to simply put something between you and the attacker's weapon. And a parry is an attempt to manipulate the attacker's weapon to your advantage. All three have the same basic result of reduced damage. A character's agility (and size and skill) affects the dodge, the weapon's weight and character's strength affects a block, and weapon accuracy/skill affects the parry. How you would use this info for an RPG I haven't figured out yet. I have been working on my RPG game for a few years and is in the beta stage. I could use some detailed annalysis of the system in regards to this and any other issues too. If interested go to www.sunderedepoch.com Will be adding these thoughts to my to do list. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Jubilation T. Cornpone) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Close combat questions. Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:27:58 GMT Organization: Dogpatch, USA Lines: 23 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on d3126.dialup.cornell.edu) Message-ID: <8il74v$ltq$3@news01.cit.cornell.edu> References: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> <393338d4.2999636@news.ix.netcom.com> <8ij5mr$95e$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d3126.dialup.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 961421279 22458 132.236.236.126 (19 Jun 2000 13:27:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 2000 13:27:59 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!cu-dial-up Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:10008 In article <8ij5mr$95e$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, banshee069@my-deja.com wrote: >INteresting questions. Fighting in the SCA (www.sca.org) can give you a >bit better idea about the answers. From my experience, when dealing >with weapons in combat, most attacks are aimed at the head. In these If you start out too close to each other rather than maintain sane distance. Looking at the historical sword manuals shows us that the arms and the legs may have been the most common targets in a real fight. >situations there is no real defense or bennifit to one size than an >other. As far as blocking an attack, yes strength does have quite a bit >to do with the defense. A person tries to block a strong attack with a If one uses no skill, whatsoever, in defense and merely stands there like a goof. Again, reference to historical sources tells us that skill and mobility made a great deal of difference. Whenever possible, one did not just stand there and attempt a direct block. --- For those in the know, a potrzebie is truly a necessity. ###### From: "Jason Gorringe" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> <393338d4.2999636@news.ix.netcom.com> <8ij5mr$95e$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Close combat questions. Lines: 55 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.49.211.125 Message-ID: <3950de5e@pron.i-way.net.uk> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:08:11 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.49.195.244 X-Trace: server12-lon1.london1.l3.net 961600108 212.49.195.244 (Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:08:28 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:08:28 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!colt.net!newspeer.highwayone.net!newspush.london1.eu.level3.net!level3eu!server12-lon1.london1.l3.net!pron.i-way.net.uk!212.49.211.125 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:10110 > INteresting questions. Fighting in the SCA (www.sca.org) can give you a > bit better idea about the answers. From my experience, when dealing > with weapons in combat, most attacks are aimed at the head. In these > situations there is no real defense or bennifit to one size than an > other. The SCA normaly use padded weapons. Combat with steel is very different (I have done both LRP and steel weapon fighting). The head is rarely a target as attacking it leaves you more open to counter attacks. Most cutting attacks I have encountered in steel weapon combat are aimed at below shoulder to above knee height, because less effort is required, and you are not as open if your blow is parried. Overhead shots are often a bad idea, particularly in armour as the armpit (usually a weak point in armour) is exposed. >As far as blocking an attack, yes strength does have quite a bit > to do with the defense. A person tries to block a strong attack with a > weak parry the result is only a reduction of impact, not complete > elimination of damage. Axes are interesting because a skiller fighter > could simply smack the ax blade, turning the weapon in the attacker's > hands and removing the cutting surface from the damage. The defender > could still be hit, but the damage would be reduced. I have never encountered this in steel weapon combat, possibly because it is difficult with full weight weapons. I normally use an axe in combat (see below). > > There are three types of defenses that I would consider for any RPG: > Dodge, Block, and Parry. The dodge maneuver is simply getting out of > the way of the attack. A block is similar to using a shield to simply > put something between you and the attacker's weapon. And a parry is an > attempt to manipulate the attacker's weapon to your advantage. All > three have the same basic result of reduced damage. A character's > agility (and size and skill) affects the dodge, the weapon's weight and > character's strength affects a block, and weapon accuracy/skill affects > the parry. In principle I agree. There are unusual exceptions to this though. An axe does not at first appear to be a good pary weapon. But a favorite trick of mine is to use a hand axe in one hand and a sword in the other. I parry with the axe, catching my opponents blade behind the axe head. This allows me to pull his weapon aside and attack with my sword. This is particularly effective agains two handed weapons. When running combat in RPGs I tend to allow the players to describe what they want to do and increase/decrease theur chances according to their actions, but then I tend to run rules light games anyway. Jason ###### From: "A.F. Simpson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Close combat questions. Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:23:33 -0700 Organization: University of Leicester Lines: 19 Message-ID: <39514E75.70CB@le.ac.uk> References: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> <393338d4.2999636@news.ix.netcom.com> <8ij5mr$95e$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3950de5e@pron.i-way.net.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc42.cmht.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: rook.le.ac.uk 961600594 46412 143.210.176.54 (21 Jun 2000 15:16:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@le.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2000 15:16:34 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!leicester!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:10246 Jason Gorringe wrote: > I have never encountered this in steel weapon combat, possibly because it is > difficult with full weight weapons. Out of curiosity, is this authentic steel weapons or reenactment-style steel weapons, which are much heavier than the real thing? I've only done reenactment combat with the overly thick, heavy kind of weapon. However, I've handled various authentic swords, including a two handed sword which only weighed about 4 pounds and I'm sure that the fighting style would be very different. I'd be interested to hear how authentic weight-weapons handle in combat (or as close to combat as you can get without slicing bits off). > Jason love Anna ###### From: pj_fitz@hotmail.com (Fitz) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Close combat questions. Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 07:42:24 GMT Organization: Ihug Limited (Christchurch) Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3951c1c1.20380067@news.chc.ihug.co.nz> References: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> <393338d4.2999636@news.ix.netcom.com> <8ij5mr$95e$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3950de5e@pron.i-way.net.uk> <39514E75.70CB@le.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.chc.ihug.co.nz X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Cache-Post-Path: newsch.es.co.nz!unknown@p11-max7.chc.ihug.co.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!HSNX.atgi.net!feeder.via.net!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:10354 On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:23:33 -0700, "A.F. Simpson" wrote: >I've only done reenactment combat with the overly thick, heavy kind of >weapon. However, I've handled various authentic swords, including a two >handed sword which only weighed about 4 pounds and I'm sure that the >fighting style would be very different. I'd be interested to hear how >authentic weight-weapons handle in combat (or as close to combat as you >can get without slicing bits off). From my experience with Japanese swords, the biggest difference between live (sharp steel) blades and bokuto (wooden swords) is that the live blade demands far greater precision in the strike. A wooden sword flexes a lot less than steel; when you fail to hit cleanly with a steel blade you really know about it - the blade flexes wildly, and you're likely to knock a great chunk out of your monstrously expensive edge. Fitz http://usa.spis.co.nz/fitz ###### From: Andy Staples Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Close combat questions. Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:24:33 +0100 Message-ID: References: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> <393338d4.2999636@news.ix.netcom.com> <8ij5mr$95e$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3950de5e@pron.i-way.net.uk> <39514E75.70CB@le.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: minarsas.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: minarsas.demon.co.uk:212.228.28.229 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961706934 nnrp-01:12893 NO-IDENT minarsas.demon.co.uk:212.228.28.229 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 S Lines: 43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!minarsas.demon.co.uk!andy.staples Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:10631 In article <39514E75.70CB@le.ac.uk>, A.F. Simpson writes >I've only done reenactment combat with the overly thick, heavy kind of >weapon. However, I've handled various authentic swords, including a two >handed sword which only weighed about 4 pounds and I'm sure that the >fighting style would be very different. I'd be interested to hear how >authentic weight-weapons handle in combat (or as close to combat as you >can get without slicing bits off). I got a chance to handle both a replica Norman broadsword and a replica 15th century two-hander at the Royal Armouries museum in Leeds a couple of months ago. Although the broadsword weighed about 3lb and the two-hander 4.5lb, I would have swords in the opposite was true - the broadsword's weight was at the tip, the two-hander's in the hilt. Balance makes a huge difference. Although I didn't get to see the interpreters demonstrating two-handed fighting (one was ill), the interpreter present did run through the basics of the style they've learned from studying 15th century fighting manuals. Basically, the two-handed sword is an extremely subtle weapon. All parts of the sword are used offensively - fighters would reverse the sword in their hands to strike with the pommel, or to trip their opponent with the quillons. One possible reason is that standard parries concentrated on defending against blade attacks, so unusual attacks gained the element of surprise. Another interpreter told me they'd taken a copy of one of the 15th century fighting manuals across to Japan when they were setting up the Armouries' new Oriental exhibition. They showed it to monks at (IIRC) the Tokugawa shrine, who got very excited and produced an early-19th century kenjutsu manual; several techniques were virtually identical in both manuals. Not being a fighter myself, that's about as much as I know about the subject. ;-) -- Andy Staples The Penultimate HarnPage - Harnic and medieval RPG resources http://www.minarsas.demon.co.uk/harn/