From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Definition of undead Date: 14 Jun 2000 11:19:13 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 9 Message-ID: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 960981553 9546 128.214.205.27 (14 Jun 2000 11:19:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2000 11:19:13 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.highwayone.net!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9411 Hi, how do you people define "undead"? For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR as undead wolves? What would be the difference between a spirit or Maia or angel and an undead monster? Tamim -- ###### From: ccamfield@sympatico.ca (Chris Camfield) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Message-ID: <39477900.280476@news1.on.sympatico.ca> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 13 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:14:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.209.159.203 X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 960984862 216.209.159.203 (Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:14:22 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:14:22 EDT Organization: Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf1.mgmt.sympatico.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9379 On 14 Jun 2000 11:19:13 GMT, Tamim wrote: >Hi, how do you people define "undead"? >For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR >as undead wolves? What would be the difference between a spirit or Maia >or angel and an undead monster? Undead vs immortal. Something that died and was brought back from the dead. As far as the Wargs are concerned, I don't recall... but I think their corpses disappeared overnight, didn't they? Sounds fishily like undead to me. Chris ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Jubilation T. Cornpone) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:22:25 GMT Organization: Dogpatch, USA Lines: 17 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on d5053.dialup.cornell.edu) Message-ID: <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: d5053.dialup.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 960988947 13582 132.236.102.53 (14 Jun 2000 13:22:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2000 13:22:27 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!cu-dial-up Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9392 In article <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim wrote: >Hi, how do you people define "undead"? Anything that should be dead but is being unnaturally animated. >For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR >as undead wolves? What would be the difference between a spirit or Maia No, they are REALLY BIG wolves. >or angel and an undead monster? Angels are immortal by nature. Undead monsters violate nature. --- For those in the know, a potrzebie is truly a necessity. ###### From: Lone Wolf Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:47:00 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8i82ce$rer$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.251.127.194 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jun 14 13:47:00 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x55.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 206.251.127.194 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcrinos_wolf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9356 In article <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim wrote: > Hi, how do you people define "undead"? > For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR > as undead wolves? What would be the difference between a spirit or Maia > or angel and an undead monster? In general, I look at undead as something that was once alive and has been reawakened(in the case of mummies, skeletons, zombies, ghouls, etc.) or something that has been brought into a state of unlife from life by some ritual(vampires and liches being the predominants in this category). Basically, anything that is not truely alive but is kept alive through magical or nefarious means. In that sense, Wargs(evil super wolves) would not be considered undead, because they are still alive. The major difference is the prescence of a life, not the mockery of life that most undead are meant to be. -- Lone Wolf "When will you rage? Oh sometime next week..." -Mario Greymist, Glasswalker Ragabash Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Message-ID: References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> Organization: Tesseract Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: tynslip1.apana.org.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 960990683 202.12.90.165 (Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:51:23 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:51:23 EST Distribution: world Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:51:06 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!206.13.28.125!cyclone-transit.snfc21.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9424 In article <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim wrote: >For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR >as undead wolves? No. The wargs in 'The Hobbit' are just big, wolves: they leave bodies when they are killed. As for the ones in LotR those who attack the fellowship before they enter Moria are some sort of supernatural manifestation (there are no corpses or other traces left in the morning. Those wolves are never called wargs. The wolves killed at the Battle of the Hornburg &c. do leave corpses and IIRC are called wargs. As far as I know, the word 'undead' was coined by Bram Stoker to apply to his vampire character: Dracula. It may have been a translation of a word in another language, but the first known use of the word in English was in 1897. The Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says that an undead is a vampire or zombie. I would extend the definition as far as necessary to include all animated corpses, whether of humans or of any other animal. I guess that some other people might extend it further to include ghosts and spectres, but I would not. A disembodied spirit is not what I call undead. -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: "Wil Hutton" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:19:04 -0700 Organization: Keyway Internet Service www.keyway.net Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8i87ms$qdk$1@madmax.keyway.net> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: o003-dyna-156.keyway.net X-Trace: madmax.keyway.net 960995868 27060 207.155.49.156 (14 Jun 2000 15:17:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@keyway.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2000 15:17:48 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.he.net!news.keyway.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9370 Sound it out: un-dead. Normally I define it as something that is dead, but has been supernaturally animated. -- Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/ JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/ The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club Metro Survivor's Homepage and more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/ eBay auctions: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/darksinner/ "Tamim" wrote in message news:8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi... > Hi, how do you people define "undead"? > For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR > as undead wolves? What would be the difference between a spirit or Maia > or angel and an undead monster? > > Tamim > > -- > ###### From: Lone Wolf Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:25:31 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8i884l$3q$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.251.127.194 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jun 14 15:25:31 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x63.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 206.251.127.194 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcrinos_wolf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9340 In article <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu>, bjm10@cornell.edu (Jubilation T. Cornpone) wrote: > No, they are REALLY BIG wolves. Actually, not only are Wargs really big wolves, but they are superly intelligent wolves, created by Melkor I believe. Their intelligence is of the constantly evil sort, and I may be wrong, but I believe they serve as the mounts for the Uruk-hai, Orcish cavalry. Tolkien was never very big on wide-ranging undead, at least not that you can see in his stories. I doubt that wargs would have fit his picture of what an undead should be. -- Lone Wolf "When will you rage? Oh sometime next week..." -Mario Greymist, Glasswalker Ragabash Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Kelly Ross Pedersen Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:56:51 -0600 Organization: University of Saskatchewan Lines: 44 Message-ID: <3947AB43.4E983766@mail.usask.ca> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> Reply-To: kelly_pedersen2@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ascl-a1-12.usask.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: tribune.usask.ca 960998210 23691 128.233.144.12 (14 Jun 2000 15:56:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@tribune.usask.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2000 15:56:50 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!torn!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!tribune.usask.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9352 Brett Evill wrote: > In article <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim > wrote: > > >For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR > >as undead wolves? > > No. The wargs in 'The Hobbit' are just big, wolves: they leave bodies when > they are killed. As for the ones in LotR those who attack the fellowship > before they enter Moria are some sort of supernatural manifestation (there > are no corpses or other traces left in the morning. Those wolves are never > called wargs. The wolves killed at the Battle of the Hornburg &c. do leave > corpses and IIRC are called wargs. > I think you're wrong. I'm quoting from memory here, but IIRC, just before the battle west of the Moria Gate against the wolves, Aragorn said "How the wind howls? That is the sound of wolf voices! The Wargs have come west of the Mountains!", and Boromir said something about "Where the Warg howls, there also the Orc prowls". Of course, these aren't said when they're actually _fighting_ the Wargs, and during the battle, "wolves" is the term used all the time. But there is no indication that the characters don't know the creatures aren't Wargs. In any case, I always assumed that the lack of bodies was an indication of the supernatural intelligence of the Wargs, who had taken the bodies of their comrades away after the battle. [snip] -- I teleported home last night with Ron and Sid and Meg. Ron stole Meggy's heart away, and I got Sidney's leg! The Teleporting Song, Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe Kelly Pedersen, Student, Megalomanic, and aspiring All-knowing Being Kelly_pedersen2@yahoo.com ###### From: John McMullen Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:02:05 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 43 Message-ID: <8i8dq1$4v8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.51.26.194 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jun 14 17:02:05 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 206.51.26.194 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjhmcmullen Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9346 In article , b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) wrote: > > As far as I know, the word 'undead' was coined by Bram Stoker to apply to > his vampire character: Dracula. It may have been a translation of a word > in another language, but the first known use of the word in English was in > 1897. > Furthermore, in the novel the term is used initially by Van Helsing and only later adopted by others. Since Van Helsing is written with stereotypical broken english (he is a foreigner, after all), it's possible that Stoker meant the term to reflect Van Helsing's misuse of english. That may be giving him too much credit; but it may not. > The Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says that an undead is a vampire or > zombie. I would extend the definition as far as necessary to include all > animated corpses, whether of humans or of any other animal. I guess that > some other people might extend it further to include ghosts and spectres, > but I would not. A disembodied spirit is not what I call undead. I'm with Brett on this. A useful generic term for animated corpses. -- John McMullen I don't speak for my employers; my employers don't speak for me. Clever quotation following by surface mail. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: 15 Jun 2000 00:31:56 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 51 Message-ID: <6uvgzbuc6b.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 961021916 1138 10.0.3.2 (14 Jun 2000 22:31:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2000 22:31:56 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9440 Tamim writes: > Hi, how do you people define "undead"? As others have said: dead bodies and supernaturally reanimated. > For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR > as undead wolves? No. Wargs are normally living. Just large enough for an Orc to ride and intelligent (they have a language). Quotes from The Hobbit: "But ever the wild Wargs (for so the evil wolves over the Edge of the Wild were named) ...", "... was a great gray wolf. He spoke to them in the dreadfull language of the Wargs." > What would be the difference between a spirit Spirits (in Tolkien) are allways dead people, who have no body any more, but have stayed around as ghost-like beings (the Wights, the ones in the passage that Aragorn summons). In Occult stuff spirits are simply all concious "beings" which have no body (interact with the world via telepathy). > or Maia Maiar are the subordinate helpers of the Valar (the powers that created and shaped the world of Middle Earth). They normally do not have bodys, but can temporarily incarnate themselves. Gandalf is a Maia, so also Saruman and also Sauron, also the Balrog. > or angel I will leave that to other who know Christianity better than I do (which is not at all). > and an undead monster? Was once a living monster, i.e. had a body from the beginning, got killed, was re-animated. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Organization: Shore.Net / Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test66 (4 June 1998) From: markus@shore.net (Anthony Christopher) Lines: 19 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:34:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.244.124.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net X-Trace: news.shore.net 961004085 207.244.124.102 (Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:34:45 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:34:45 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.shore.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9476 In article <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim wrote: >Hi, how do you people define "undead"? >For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR >as undead wolves? What would be the difference between a spirit or Maia >or angel and an undead monster? > Okay, this goes off on a tangent, but I have to ask; where does the idea that wargs are undead come from? I and some other friends never got that impression from reading the Hobbit, LoTR, or a few selected other stories, but I've heard various other people mention that they are. Just curious. Thanks! -- Mark Christopher|Tech Editor|Shore.Net - a PRIMUS Company|www.shore.net "Information causes change, and if it doesn't, it's not information. You're sitting in a seat: that's not information. The person next to you has a communicable disease: now that's information." -James Burke ###### From: Patrick Berry Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:26:29 -0400 Organization: Alcatel USA, Inc. Lines: 7 Message-ID: <3947CE55.CBC8C5D0@usa.alcatel.com> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: ra001718.aur.alcatel.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: aurwww.aur.alcatel.com 961007189 21339 143.209.21.195 (14 Jun 2000 18:26:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@aur.alcatel.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2000 18:26:29 GMT X-Sender: "Patrick Berry" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD office (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!dfw-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.alcatel.com!aurwww!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9475 Tamim wrote: > Hi, how do you people define "undead"? Any dead creature that refuses to lie down and be quiet. :) ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: 14 Jun 2000 18:28:13 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 15 Distribution: world Message-ID: <8i8irt$7tf$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 961007293 8111 128.214.205.27 (14 Jun 2000 18:28:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2000 18:28:13 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!News.Tele.DK!news.tele.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9566 Brett Evill wrote: > In article <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim > wrote: >>For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR >>as undead wolves? > No. The wargs in 'The Hobbit' are just big, wolves: they leave bodies when > they are killed. They speak and cooperate with Orcs: they are supernatural Wolves-----> Wargs Tamim ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: 14 Jun 2000 19:34:08 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 11 Message-ID: <8i8mng$c9r$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3947CE55.CBC8C5D0@usa.alcatel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 961011248 12603 128.214.205.27 (14 Jun 2000 19:34:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2000 19:34:08 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9565 Patrick Berry wrote: > Tamim wrote: >> Hi, how do you people define "undead"? > Any dead creature that refuses to lie down and be quiet. :) Like Gandalf or Sauron :) ? ###### From: peacefulcut@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:57:31 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 59 Message-ID: <8i8o31$dhl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.202.192.10 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jun 14 19:57:31 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x72.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.202.192.10 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDpeacefulcut Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.netscum.dk.MISMATCH!CensurBot!news.tele.dk!News.Tele.DK!news.tele.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp2.giganews.com!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9453 > how do you people define "undead"? First, you must define "alive" and "dead". Are you dead when your heart stops beating? Are you alive if your mind is gone but your heart keeps beating? Very many worldviews (ancient and modern) hold that an alive person has both a body and a spirit, and that when that spirit separates from the body, the person has become dead. For me, for a creature to be undead, it must once have been dead, which also implies that it must once have been alive. The natural spirit that once animated the corpse has fled or has been devoured and has been replaced with ... well, here is where the fun begins. The classic scenario is for a necromancer (any mage who wrestles with the mystic forces of Life and Death) to attempt to create an imitation of a natural spirit, much as AI researchers attempt to create an imitation of natural intelligence today. The imitation is usually poor, resulting in an unholy mockery of life. I think that there can be many different animating forces, however, even if they all come under the heading of Magic eventually. For example, a demon-possessed corpse can be treated as undead, as well as a corpse reanimated by the spirit of the river where it drowned. Vampires have alchemically (and irreversibly) combined their natural spirit with that of a demon and must continually sate the demon in order to continue animating their corpses (which amuses the demon no end). As an aside - in campaigns where resurrection has become a commodity, some forms of resurrection are definitely cheaper than others. > For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the > LotR as undead wolves? I can't recall reading anything that would lead me to characterize wargs as undead. Perhaps "possessed by the spirit of Sauron", but even then it seems to be a low level effect, more a goading to hate and violence than true possession. > What would be the difference between a spirit or Maia or > angel and an undead monster? I've always thought of angels (and Maiar) as pure spirit, with the power to manifest a physical form if required, but not having a body in their "natural" state. They are a different order of being, not really subject to undeath, because they don't have a corpse. peace Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: ed Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:31:59 +0100 Organization: Team Rodent Approved: Apparently Message-ID: References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Reply-To: edhogg@equus.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: equus.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: equus.demon.co.uk:158.152.255.217 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961018091 nnrp-06:20999 NO-IDENT equus.demon.co.uk:158.152.255.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!proxad.net!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!oleane.net!oleane!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!equus.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9616 The noble Tamim spake on the day of 14 Jun 2000 11:19:13 GMT: >Hi, how do you people define "undead"? >For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR >as undead wolves? What would be the difference between a spirit or Maia >or angel and an undead monster? No. Warg just means wolf. In the Hobbit they are big wolves, not unlike the Dire Wolf that used to roam the place. Of course they are also intelligent and can speak, but they aren't undead. ed -- edhogg@equus.demon.co.uk | Dragons Rescued | _//// http://www.equus.demon.co.uk/ | Maidens Slain | o_/o /// For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, RPGs, | Quests P.O.A. | __\ ///__ Science-Fiction and other stuff | | <*> ###### From: b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Message-ID: References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> <8i884l$3q$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: Tesseract Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: tynslip1.apana.org.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 961027956 202.12.90.165 (Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:12:36 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:12:36 EST Distribution: world Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:12:20 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newspeer.cwnet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9582 In article <8i884l$3q$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Lone Wolf wrote: > Actually, not only are Wargs really big wolves, but they are superly > intelligent wolves, created by Melkor I believe. Their intelligence is > of the constantly evil sort, and I may be wrong, but I believe they > serve as the mounts for the Uruk-hai, Orcish cavalry. They certainly served as mounts for orcish cavalry. But not, I think, for uruk-hai, which might have been a bit big. Uruk-hai were as big as humans (ordinary humans that is, not dunedain). Regards, Brett Evill -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Message-ID: References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> <3947AB43.4E983766@mail.usask.ca> Organization: Tesseract Lines: 40 NNTP-Posting-Host: tynslip1.apana.org.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 961028697 202.12.90.165 (Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:24:57 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:24:57 EST Distribution: world Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:24:40 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!europa.netcrusader.net!128.32.206.55!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9586 In article <3947AB43.4E983766@mail.usask.ca>, kelly_pedersen2@yahoo.com wrote: > Brett Evill wrote: > > > In article <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim > > wrote: > > > > >For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR > > >as undead wolves? > > > > No. The wargs in 'The Hobbit' are just big, wolves: they leave bodies when > > they are killed. As for the ones in LotR those who attack the fellowship > > before they enter Moria are some sort of supernatural manifestation (there > > are no corpses or other traces left in the morning. Those wolves are never > > called wargs. The wolves killed at the Battle of the Hornburg &c. do leave > > corpses and IIRC are called wargs. > > > > I think you're wrong. I'm quoting from memory here, but IIRC, just before the > battle west of the Moria Gate against the wolves, Aragorn said "How the wind > howls? That is the sound of wolf voices! The Wargs have come west of the > Mountains!", and Boromir said something about "Where the Warg howls, there > also the Orc prowls". Quite true. (And by the way, you do a pretty good job quoting from memory. But Aragorn said both things.) But anyway, Aragorn says these things *before* he discovers that these wolves are phantoms that leave neither bodies no other traces. In short, they assumed that they were wargs, and were perplexed when they turned out not to be. So although I was not right in saying that those wolves were never called wargs, it is still the case that 'warg' was not *knowingly* used by any of the characters to describe those phantom wolves. Wargs are not phantoms but flesh-and-blood giant intelligent wolves. -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Distribution: world Subject: Re: Definition of undead Message-ID: References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> <8i8irt$7tf$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Organization: Tesseract Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: tynslip1.apana.org.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 961029005 202.12.90.165 (Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:30:05 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:30:05 EST Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:29:50 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!feeder.via.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9579 In article <8i8irt$7tf$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim wrote: > Brett Evill wrote: > > In article <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim > > wrote: > > >>For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR > >>as undead wolves? > > > No. The wargs in 'The Hobbit' are just big, wolves: they leave bodies when > > they are killed. > > They speak and cooperate with Orcs: they are supernatural Wolves-----> Wargs Just so. But by no means are they undead. Wargs are large intelligent wolves allied with orcs. The wolves that attack the fellowship near Moria are different from the wargs in 'The Hobbit', and therefore, I think, probably not wargs. For a start, they have no real bodies, unlike true wargs. -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Message-ID: References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3947CE55.CBC8C5D0@usa.alcatel.com> <8i8mng$c9r$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Organization: Tesseract Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: tynslip1.apana.org.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 961029272 202.12.90.165 (Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:34:32 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:34:32 EST Distribution: world Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:34:15 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9581 In article <8i8mng$c9r$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim wrote: > Patrick Berry wrote: > > > > Tamim wrote: > > >> Hi, how do you people define "undead"? > > > Any dead creature that refuses to lie down and be quiet. :) > > Like Gandalf or Sauron :) ? Good point. I think that you have to distinguish something that is dead but refuses to lie down from something that was dead but is now alive again, like the risen Christ or a person who has been resuscitated after drowning. The point about the undead is that, although they walk around they are still in some sense dead. The problem is that it may be difficult to define the sense, in which case the best I can suggest is that you not look too closely. -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: arbane@soho.ios.com (Arbane the Terrible) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 01:58:49 GMT Organization: IDT (Best News In The World) Lines: 26 Message-ID: <394837be.2315458@news.idt.net> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3947CE55.CBC8C5D0@usa.alcatel.com> <8i8mng$c9r$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i9he5$tk8$1@madmax.keyway.net> Reply-To: arbane@soho.ios.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-34.ts-2.den.idt.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.fnsi.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9449 On Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:11:15 -0700, "Wil Hutton" wrote: >"Brett Evill" wrote in message >news:b.evill-1506001034330001@tynslip1.apana.org.au... > >> I think that you have to distinguish something that is dead but refuses to >> lie down from something that was dead but is now alive again, like the >> risen Christ or a person who has been resuscitated after drowning. > >So Christ is a zombie?! That's classsic *j/k* Nope--a vampire. "He gave His blood for you-- AND NOW HE WANTS IT BACK." --From _The Last Days of Christ The Vampire_, by J. G. Eccarius, a real book I read a long time ago... Do You Believe That? --- "How different would Usenet be if, instead of a 'Send' button, your news reader had a 'Do you think anyone really cares?' button?" ###### From: Kelly Ross Pedersen Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:40:14 -0600 Organization: University of Saskatchewan Lines: 65 Message-ID: <3948420D.781B1C92@mail.usask.ca> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> <3947AB43.4E983766@mail.usask.ca> Reply-To: kelly_pedersen2@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ascl-a1-28.usask.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: tribune.usask.ca 961036812 1313 128.233.144.28 (15 Jun 2000 02:40:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@tribune.usask.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2000 02:40:12 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!tribune.usask.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9455 Brett Evill wrote: > In article <3947AB43.4E983766@mail.usask.ca>, kelly_pedersen2@yahoo.com wrote: > > > Brett Evill wrote: > > > > > In article <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim > > > wrote: > > > > > > >For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR > > > >as undead wolves? > > > > > > No. The wargs in 'The Hobbit' are just big, wolves: they leave bodies when > > > they are killed. As for the ones in LotR those who attack the fellowship > > > before they enter Moria are some sort of supernatural manifestation (there > > > are no corpses or other traces left in the morning. Those wolves are never > > > called wargs. The wolves killed at the Battle of the Hornburg &c. do leave > > > corpses and IIRC are called wargs. > > > > > > > I think you're wrong. I'm quoting from memory here, but IIRC, just before the > > battle west of the Moria Gate against the wolves, Aragorn said "How the wind > > howls? That is the sound of wolf voices! The Wargs have come west of the > > Mountains!", and Boromir said something about "Where the Warg howls, there > > also the Orc prowls". > > Quite true. (And by the way, you do a pretty good job quoting from memory. > But Aragorn said both things.) Heh. Comes from reading the books 10 or 11 times! :-) > But anyway, Aragorn says these things > *before* he discovers that these wolves are phantoms that leave neither > bodies no other traces. In short, they assumed that they were wargs, and > were perplexed when they turned out not to be. > > So although I was not right in saying that those wolves were never called > wargs, it is still the case that 'warg' was not *knowingly* used by any of > the characters to describe those phantom wolves. Wargs are not phantoms > but flesh-and-blood giant intelligent wolves. > I'm still uncertain of your interpretation that the wolves that attacked were "phantoms". Do you have a cite for that at all? A letter, or one of the "Shaping of Middle Earth" books? My interpretation was that the wolves were intelligent enough to drag off their dead. And certainly, none of the characters said anything about them being phantoms or ghosts. -- I teleported home last night with Ron and Sid and Meg. Ron stole Meggy's heart away, and I got Sidney's leg! The Teleporting Song, Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe Kelly Pedersen, Student, Megalomanic, and aspiring All-knowing Being Kelly_pedersen2@yahoo.com ###### From: "Wil Hutton" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:11:15 -0700 Organization: Keyway Internet Service www.keyway.net Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8i9he5$tk8$1@madmax.keyway.net> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3947CE55.CBC8C5D0@usa.alcatel.com> <8i8mng$c9r$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: o003-dyna-166.keyway.net X-Trace: madmax.keyway.net 961038597 30344 207.155.49.166 (15 Jun 2000 03:09:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@keyway.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2000 03:09:57 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsxfer.interpacket.net!news.interpacket.net!news.keyway.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9485 "Brett Evill" wrote in message news:b.evill-1506001034330001@tynslip1.apana.org.au... > I think that you have to distinguish something that is dead but refuses to > lie down from something that was dead but is now alive again, like the > risen Christ or a person who has been resuscitated after drowning. So Christ is a zombie?! That's classsic *j/k* -- Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/ JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/ The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club Metro Survivor's Homepage and more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/ eBay auctions: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/darksinner/ ###### From: b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Message-ID: References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> <3947AB43.4E983766@mail.usask.ca> <3948420D.781B1C92@mail.usask.ca> Organization: Tesseract Lines: 46 NNTP-Posting-Host: tynslip1.apana.org.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 961042314 202.12.90.165 (Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:11:54 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:11:54 EST Distribution: world Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:11:30 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9585 In article <3948420D.781B1C92@mail.usask.ca>, kelly_pedersen2@yahoo.com wrote: > Brett Evill wrote: > > But anyway, Aragorn says these things > > *before* he discovers that these wolves are phantoms that leave neither > > bodies no other traces. In short, they assumed that they were wargs, and > > were perplexed when they turned out not to be. > > > > So although I was not right in saying that those wolves were never called > > wargs, it is still the case that 'warg' was not *knowingly* used by any of > > the characters to describe those phantom wolves. Wargs are not phantoms > > but flesh-and-blood giant intelligent wolves. > > > > I'm still uncertain of your interpretation that the wolves that attacked were > "phantoms". Do you have a cite for that at all? A letter, or one of the "Shaping of > Middle Earth" books? My interpretation was that the wolves were intelligent enough > to drag off their dead. And certainly, none of the characters said anything about > them being phantoms or ghosts. "When the full light of morning came no signs of the wolves were to be found, and they looked in vain for the bodies of the dead. No trace of the fight remained but the charred trees and the arrows of Legolas lying on the hill-top. All were undamaged save one of which only the point was left. "'It is as I feared,' said Gandalf 'These were no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness. Let us eat quickly and go!" If that was usual for wargs, why did they search? Aragorn was the greatest hunter and traveller of Middle-Earth, and could have told them what to expect. Wolves could not have extracted the arrows without damaging them, dragged away their dead, cleaned up all the blood they spilled, and then erased every scrape and paw-print they left on the ground. -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Message-ID: References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3947CE55.CBC8C5D0@usa.alcatel.com> <8i8mng$c9r$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i9he5$tk8$1@madmax.keyway.net> Organization: Tesseract Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: tynslip1.apana.org.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 961042902 202.12.90.165 (Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:21:42 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:21:42 EST Distribution: world Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:21:25 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9583 In article <8i9he5$tk8$1@madmax.keyway.net>, "Wil Hutton" wrote: > "Brett Evill" wrote in message > news:b.evill-1506001034330001@tynslip1.apana.org.au... > > > I think that you have to distinguish something that is dead but refuses to > > lie down from something that was dead but is now alive again, like the > > risen Christ or a person who has been resuscitated after drowning. > > So Christ is a zombie?! That's classsic *j/k* Not at all. What I said was "Because Christ was *NOT* undead, you can't define undead just to mean something that was once dead and now is walking around." -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 15 Jun 2000 05:02:44 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000615010244.10241.00003023@nso-bh.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9504 In article , b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) writes: >The point about the undead is that, although they walk around they are >still in some sense dead. The problem is that it may be difficult to >define the sense, in which case the best I can suggest is that you not >look too closely. Most undead tend to have very definite signs that they are not truly living: The lack of a heartbeat; the continued rotting of their bodies; etc. In some cases this connection can be *extremely* ephemeral (nothing more than a "stench of death" which clings to them or the "lack of a soul", for example). Can you think of an instance where this wasn't true? Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: pj_fitz@hotmail.com (Fitz) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 06:27:42 GMT Organization: Ihug Limited (Christchurch) Lines: 14 Message-ID: <39487714.34495517@news.chc.ihug.co.nz> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3947CE55.CBC8C5D0@usa.alcatel.com> <8i8mng$c9r$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.chc.ihug.co.nz X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Cache-Post-Path: newsch.es.co.nz!unknown@p11-max7.chc.ihug.co.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9497 On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:34:15 +1000, b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) wrote: >The point about the undead is that, although they walk around they are >still in some sense dead. The problem is that it may be difficult to >define the sense, in which case the best I can suggest is that you not >look too closely. Hmmm, how about the Sniff Test? If it smells dead, but it's still walking, it's undead (or some of the less savoury gaming conventioneers). Fitz http://usa.spis.co.nz/fitz ###### From: "Mark Buckley" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:11:08 +0100 Organization: Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, Oxon, UK Lines: 31 Message-ID: <8ia32u$vdm@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk> References: <20000615010244.10241.00003023@nso-bh.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ssdwmab.ag.rl.ac.uk X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!server4.netnews.ja.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!ral!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9480 Justin Bacon wrote in message news:20000615010244.10241.00003023@nso-bh.aol.com... > In article , > b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) writes: > > >The point about the undead is that, although they walk around they are > >still in some sense dead. The problem is that it may be difficult to > >define the sense, in which case the best I can suggest is that you not > >look too closely. > > Most undead tend to have very definite signs that they are not truly living: > The lack of a heartbeat; the continued rotting of their bodies; etc. In some > cases this connection can be *extremely* ephemeral (nothing more than a "stench > of death" which clings to them or the "lack of a soul", for example). Can you > think of an instance where this wasn't true? I think the Jagji of the temples of Sarku (Tekumel) while being technically zombies, appear no different to living persons (unless they forget to pretend to breathe...) cheers, Mark ###### From: b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Message-ID: References: <20000615010244.10241.00003023@nso-bh.aol.com> Organization: Tesseract Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: tynslip1.apana.org.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 961056724 202.12.90.165 (Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:12:04 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:12:04 EST Distribution: world Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:11:48 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!dc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9584 In article <20000615010244.10241.00003023@nso-bh.aol.com>, triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote: > In article , > b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) writes: > > >The point about the undead is that, although they walk around they are > >still in some sense dead. The problem is that it may be difficult to > >define the sense, in which case the best I can suggest is that you not > >look too closely. > > Most undead tend to have very definite signs that they are not truly living: > The lack of a heartbeat; the continued rotting of their bodies; etc. In some > cases this connection can be *extremely* ephemeral (nothing more than a "stench > of death" which clings to them or the "lack of a soul", for example). Can you > think of an instance where this wasn't true? No, but the absence of a soul is hard to determine empirically, especially in a fantasy world where they have not invented the saxophone. -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### Message-ID: <3948A8BD.46EC@wizvax.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 05:58:21 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-62.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-62.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 15 Jun 2000 05:59:44 -0400, cm-24-29-52-62.nycap.rr.com Lines: 22 XPident: Unknown X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!grolier!oleane.net!oleane!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-62.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9619 Tamim wrote: > > Hi, how do you people define "undead"? Something that is dead, but seems to insist on moving anyway. > For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR > as undead wolves? No. They were alive. Wargs are basically dire wolves -- huge wolves that used to hang out in these parts during the last Ice Age. What would be the difference between a spirit or Maia > or angel and an undead monster? Spirits aren't dead things pretending to be alive. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Jubilation T. Cornpone) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:23:13 GMT Organization: Dogpatch, USA Lines: 17 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on d7a149.dialup.cornell.edu) Message-ID: <8ialc3$aj6$3@news01.cit.cornell.edu> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: d7a149.dialup.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 961075395 10854 128.253.49.149 (15 Jun 2000 13:23:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2000 13:23:15 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!cu-dial-up Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9532 In article , markus@shore.net (Anthony Christopher) wrote: >In article <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, >Tamim wrote: >>Hi, how do you people define "undead"? >>For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR >>as undead wolves? What would be the difference between a spirit or Maia >>or angel and an undead monster? >> > >Okay, this goes off on a tangent, but I have to ask; where does the idea >that wargs are undead come from? I and some other friends never got that Some munchkin playing a Cleric wants to be able to turn them? --- For those in the know, a potrzebie is truly a necessity. ###### From: Lone Wolf Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:14:09 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8iarrf$uel$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> <8i884l$3q$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.251.127.194 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Jun 15 15:14:09 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x56.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 206.251.127.194 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcrinos_wolf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9469 In article , b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) wrote: > They certainly served as mounts for orcish cavalry. But not, I think, for > uruk-hai, which might have been a bit big. Uruk-hai were as big as humans > (ordinary humans that is, not dunedain). I don't know. Warg's were supposedly rather large, and quite possibly the size of ponies if not bigger in my estimation. -- Lone Wolf "When will you rage? Oh sometime next week..." -Mario Greymist, Glasswalker Ragabash Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Lone Wolf Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:21:27 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8ias91$usp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3947CE55.CBC8C5D0@usa.alcatel.com> <8i8mng$c9r$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.251.127.194 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Jun 15 15:21:27 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x56.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 206.251.127.194 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcrinos_wolf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9465 In article , b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) wrote: > Good point. > > I think that you have to distinguish something that is dead but refuses to > lie down from something that was dead but is now alive again, like the > risen Christ or a person who has been resuscitated after drowning. > > The point about the undead is that, although they walk around they are > still in some sense dead. The problem is that it may be difficult to > define the sense, in which case the best I can suggest is that you not > look too closely. I think part of it goes to the fact that with Gandalf and Sauron, their bodies are still maintaining themselves, which is not the case with most undead, whose bodies are in a state of preservation at best, and not maintaining themselves in any sense of the word. Vampires' bodies don't even perform maintenance on themselves, but require blood to keep themselves going. -- Lone Wolf "When will you rage? Oh sometime next week..." -Mario Greymist, Glasswalker Ragabash Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: 15 Jun 2000 17:59:39 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8ib5ib$6ds$3@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3947CE55.CBC8C5D0@usa.alcatel.com> <8i8mng$c9r$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8ias91$usp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 961091979 6588 128.214.205.14 (15 Jun 2000 17:59:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2000 17:59:39 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.6 (sun4m)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9562 Lone Wolf wrote: > In article , > b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) wrote: >> Good point. >> >> I think that you have to distinguish something that is dead but > refuses to >> lie down from something that was dead but is now alive again, like the >> risen Christ or a person who has been resuscitated after drowning. >> >> The point about the undead is that, although they walk around they are >> still in some sense dead. The problem is that it may be difficult to >> define the sense, in which case the best I can suggest is that you not >> look too closely. > I think part of it goes to the fact that with Gandalf and Sauron, their > bodies are still maintaining themselves, which is not the case with > most undead, whose bodies are in a state of preservation at best, and > not maintaining themselves in any sense of the word. Vampires' bodies > don't even perform maintenance on themselves, but require blood to keep > themselves going. And we need food. Tamim ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: 15 Jun 2000 18:05:58 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 34 Message-ID: <8ib5u6$6ds$4@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3948A8BD.46EC@wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 961092358 6588 128.214.205.14 (15 Jun 2000 18:05:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2000 18:05:58 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.6 (sun4m)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9559 Sea Wasp wrote: > Tamim wrote: >> >> Hi, how do you people define "undead"? > Something that is dead, but seems to insist on moving anyway. >> For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR >> as undead wolves? > No. They were alive. Wargs are basically dire wolves -- huge wolves > that used to hang out in these parts during the last Ice Age. Wrong. Their bodies disappeared without a sign, and the arrows that killed them remained. What is remarcable is that Legolas and Gandalf weren't at all surprised. Besides this, they could also speak their own quite complex language. In TH they had a kind of conferene, in wich the chief spoke to the rest, then they talked and Gandalf understood what yhey were talking about, because he knew their LANGUAGE. > What would be the difference between a spirit or Maia >> or angel and an undead monster? > Spirits aren't dead things pretending to be alive. Yes the question is that what is a dead thing pretending to be alive. Sauron was not an undead but he had still died. So had Beren Erchamion. Tamim ###### From: voxel@theramp.net (Bryant Berggren) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:36:19 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 10 Message-ID: <39492202.236194766@news.theramp.net> References: <20000615010244.10241.00003023@nso-bh.aol.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9481 On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:11:48 +1000, b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) wrote: >No, but the absence of a soul is hard to determine empirically, especially >in a fantasy world where they have not invented the saxophone. ROTFLMAO! {scribbles "saxaphone of life detection" down on his silly list} BRB ###### From: "A.F. Simpson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:18:51 -0700 Organization: University of Leicester Lines: 30 Message-ID: <39493A2B.501C@le.ac.uk> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i8o31$dhl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc42.cmht.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: rook.le.ac.uk 961071561 151961 143.210.176.54 (15 Jun 2000 12:19:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@le.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2000 12:19:21 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!194.53.76.66.MISMATCH!inetway!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!leicester!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9574 peacefulcut@my-deja.com wrote: > > What would be the difference between a spirit or Maia or > > angel and an undead monster? > > I've always thought of angels (and Maiar) as pure spirit, with > the power to manifest a physical form if required, but not > having a body in their "natural" state. To use the analogy from the Silmarillion, their bodies are just clothes and if they don't use a physical body it diminishes them no more than a person undressing. Air and Angels. Again, mostly from the Silmarillion, losing a body involuntarily does seem to damage maiar. When the Maiar in the LotR really die, there doesn't seem to be any possibility of coming back as undead or anything else. The Nazgul are perhaps a kind of undead, although they aren't reanimated corpses. In fact, they are almost an inverted undead, being a human spirit unnaturally sustained beyind the time they should have died, but without a 'real' body. The barrow wights are classically undead: a human corpse inhabited by an evil spirit. >peace love Anna ###### From: "A.F. Simpson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:21:48 -0700 Organization: University of Leicester Lines: 18 Message-ID: <39493ADC.218B@le.ac.uk> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <6uvgzbuc6b.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc42.cmht.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: rook.le.ac.uk 961071738 151961 143.210.176.54 (15 Jun 2000 12:22:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@le.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2000 12:22:18 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!leicester!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9575 Neil Franklin wrote: > Tamim writes: > Spirits (in Tolkien) are allways dead people, who have no body any more, > but have stayed around as ghost-like beings (the Wights, the ones in the > passage that Aragorn summons). I think those are different things. Aragorn summons human spirits who have been forced to remain in Middle Earth because they broke an oath. I seem to remember that the barrow wights are non-human evil spirits who inhabited the corpses in the barrows after the fall of the northern Numenorean kingdoms. > Neil Franklin love Anna ###### From: "A.F. Simpson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:00:41 -0700 Organization: University of Leicester Lines: 11 Message-ID: <39496E29.EFA@le.ac.uk> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3947CE55.CBC8C5D0@usa.alcatel.com> <8i8mng$c9r$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8ias91$usp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc42.cmht.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: rook.le.ac.uk 961084869 169142 143.210.176.54 (15 Jun 2000 16:01:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@le.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2000 16:01:09 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!194.53.76.66.MISMATCH!inetway!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!leicester!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9572 Lone Wolf wrote: > > Vampires' bodies don't even perform maintenance on themselves, > but require blood to keep themselves going. In fact it's almost like, er, food. > Lone Wolf love Anna ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:36:34 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 52 Message-ID: <39493042.72E477AD@helsinki.fi> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> <8i8irt$7tf$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: sokerimunkki.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 961097818 13777 128.214.182.167 (15 Jun 2000 19:36:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2000 19:36:58 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9647 Brett Evill wrote: > > In article <8i8irt$7tf$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim > wrote: > > > Brett Evill wrote: > > > In article <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim > > > wrote: > > > > >>For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR > > >>as undead wolves? > > > > > No. The wargs in 'The Hobbit' are just big, wolves: they leave bodies when > > > they are killed. > > > > They speak and cooperate with Orcs: they are supernatural Wolves-----> Wargs > > Just so. But by no means are they undead. Wargs are large intelligent > wolves allied with orcs. > > The wolves that attack the fellowship near Moria are different from the > wargs in 'The Hobbit', and therefore, I think, probably not wargs. For a > start, they have no real bodies, unlike true wargs. > > -- > Regards, > > Brett Evill From the FotR, Ajourney in the dark: " Suddenly Aragorn leapt to his feet. ' How thw wind howls!' he cried. ' It is howling with wolf-voices. The Wargs have come west of the Mountains!' 'Need we wait until morning then?' Said Gandalf. 'It is as I said. The hunt is up...." Remember that Aragorn does not make mistakes in these things. "'True!' said Aragorn, loosening his swordin its sheath. 'But where the warg howls, there also the orc prowls'" "Gandalf stood up and strode forward, holding his staff aloft. 'Listen, Hound of Sauron!' he cried." " A great host of Wargs had gathered silently and was now attacking them from every side at once" I think the last alone is enough to prove that the wolves in the LotR were Wargs, and as such the same kind as the ones in TH. Tamim ###### From: Kelly Ross Pedersen Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:14:28 -0600 Organization: University of Saskatchewan Lines: 63 Message-ID: <39496354.62339BE5@mail.usask.ca> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> <3947AB43.4E983766@mail.usask.ca> <3948420D.781B1C92@mail.usask.ca> Reply-To: kelly_pedersen2@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ascl-a1-36.usask.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: tribune.usask.ca 961110867 17148 128.233.144.36 (15 Jun 2000 23:14:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@tribune.usask.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2000 23:14:27 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!clarke.sasknet.sk.ca!tribune.usask.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9657 Brett Evill wrote: > In article <3948420D.781B1C92@mail.usask.ca>, kelly_pedersen2@yahoo.com wrote: > > > Brett Evill wrote: > > > > But anyway, Aragorn says these things > > > *before* he discovers that these wolves are phantoms that leave neither > > > bodies no other traces. In short, they assumed that they were wargs, and > > > were perplexed when they turned out not to be. > > > > > > So although I was not right in saying that those wolves were never called > > > wargs, it is still the case that 'warg' was not *knowingly* used by any of > > > the characters to describe those phantom wolves. Wargs are not phantoms > > > but flesh-and-blood giant intelligent wolves. > > > > > > > I'm still uncertain of your interpretation that the wolves that attacked were > > "phantoms". Do you have a cite for that at all? A letter, or one of the > "Shaping of > > Middle Earth" books? My interpretation was that the wolves were > intelligent enough > > to drag off their dead. And certainly, none of the characters said > anything about > > them being phantoms or ghosts. > > "When the full light of morning came no signs of the wolves were to be > found, and they looked in vain for the bodies of the dead. No trace of the > fight remained but the charred trees and the arrows of Legolas lying on > the hill-top. All were undamaged save one of which only the point was > left. > > "'It is as I feared,' said Gandalf 'These were no ordinary wolves hunting > for food in the wilderness. Let us eat quickly and go!" > > If that was usual for wargs, why did they search? Aragorn was the greatest > hunter and traveller of Middle-Earth, and could have told them what to > expect. > > Wolves could not have extracted the arrows without damaging them, dragged > away their dead, cleaned up all the blood they spilled, and then erased > every scrape and paw-print they left on the ground. > Very true. Ok, I give. They were phantoms of some sort, not just Wargs. -- I teleported home last night with Ron and Sid and Meg. Ron stole Meggy's heart away, and I got Sidney's leg! The Teleporting Song, Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe Kelly Pedersen, Student, Megalomanic, and aspiring All-knowing Being Kelly_pedersen2@yahoo.com ###### Message-ID: <3949A96B.7DD8@wizvax.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:13:31 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3948A8BD.46EC@wizvax.net> <8ib5u6$6ds$4@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-62.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-62.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 16 Jun 2000 00:14:57 -0400, cm-24-29-52-62.nycap.rr.com Lines: 37 XPident: quahaug X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-62.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9882 Tamim wrote: > > Sea Wasp wrote: > > Tamim wrote: > >> > >> Hi, how do you people define "undead"? > > > Something that is dead, but seems to insist on moving anyway. > > >> For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the LotR > >> as undead wolves? > > > No. They were alive. Wargs are basically dire wolves -- huge wolves > > that used to hang out in these parts during the last Ice Age. > > Wrong. Beg pardon? You channeled the spirit of J.R.R. Tolkien? Why, I bow down before your mighty mystical powers. Not. Their bodies disappeared without a sign, and the arrows that > killed them remained. What is remarcable is that Legolas and Gandalf > weren't at all surprised. Intelligent creatures often remove their dead from a battlefield. The Wargs were intelligent. QED. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Message-ID: References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3948A8BD.46EC@wizvax.net> <8ib5u6$6ds$4@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3949A96B.7DD8@wizvax.net> Organization: Tesseract Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: tynslip1.apana.org.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 961136483 202.12.90.165 (Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:21:23 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:21:23 EST Distribution: world Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:21:08 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9838 In article <3949A96B.7DD8@wizvax.net>, seawasp@wizvax.net wrote: > Their bodies disappeared without a sign, and the arrows that > > killed them remained. What is remarcable is that Legolas and Gandalf > > weren't at all surprised. > > Intelligent creatures often remove their dead from a battlefield. The > Wargs were intelligent. QED. However, not all intelligent beings with no hands remove the arrows from their wounded and dead and leave those on the battlefield undamaged, and clean up every trace of the fight and their presence, undetected by a watchful foe who remains on the battlefield. Perhaps some do. Can't think of any, but there might be some... -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: 16 Jun 2000 11:27:40 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 61 Message-ID: <8id2vc$f9e$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> <3947AB43.4E983766@mail.usask.ca> <3948420D.781B1C92@mail.usask.ca> <39496354.62339BE5@mail.usask.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 961154860 15662 128.214.205.27 (16 Jun 2000 11:27:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 2000 11:27:40 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9801 Kelly Ross Pedersen wrote: > Brett Evill wrote: >> In article <3948420D.781B1C92@mail.usask.ca>, kelly_pedersen2@yahoo.com wrote: >> >> > Brett Evill wrote: >> >> > > But anyway, Aragorn says these things >> > > *before* he discovers that these wolves are phantoms that leave neither >> > > bodies no other traces. In short, they assumed that they were wargs, and >> > > were perplexed when they turned out not to be. >> > > >> > > So although I was not right in saying that those wolves were never called >> > > wargs, it is still the case that 'warg' was not *knowingly* used by any of >> > > the characters to describe those phantom wolves. Wargs are not phantoms >> > > but flesh-and-blood giant intelligent wolves. >> > > >> > >> > I'm still uncertain of your interpretation that the wolves that attacked were >> > "phantoms". Do you have a cite for that at all? A letter, or one of the >> "Shaping of >> > Middle Earth" books? My interpretation was that the wolves were >> intelligent enough >> > to drag off their dead. And certainly, none of the characters said >> anything about >> > them being phantoms or ghosts. >> >> "When the full light of morning came no signs of the wolves were to be >> found, and they looked in vain for the bodies of the dead. No trace of the >> fight remained but the charred trees and the arrows of Legolas lying on >> the hill-top. All were undamaged save one of which only the point was >> left. >> >> "'It is as I feared,' said Gandalf 'These were no ordinary wolves hunting >> for food in the wilderness. Let us eat quickly and go!" >> >> If that was usual for wargs, why did they search? Aragorn was the greatest >> hunter and traveller of Middle-Earth, and could have told them what to >> expect. >> >> Wolves could not have extracted the arrows without damaging them, dragged >> away their dead, cleaned up all the blood they spilled, and then erased >> every scrape and paw-print they left on the ground. >> > Very true. Ok, I give. They were phantoms of some sort, not just Wargs. Wrong. They were supernatural wolves: Wargs From the FotR " A great host of Wargs had gathered silently and was now attacking them from every side at once" If You do not trust Aragorns ranger skills as even Gandalf trusted, at least trus the storyteller Tamim ###### X-Originating-Host: 206.51.26.194 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Definition of undead Lines: 56 From: jhmcmullen Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <0575f78d.5f209a38@usw-ex0103-019.remarq.com> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3947CE55.CBC8C5D0@usa.alcatel.com> <8i8mng$c9r$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i9he5$tk8$1@madmax.keyway.net> <394837be.2315458@news.idt.net> Bytes: 1986 X-Wren-Trace: eOzJ4eD5vvS/ofvp/KDh4PDs3OL+pqX9+q7t6vG4p/y1pPm8rP6vrLG0vA== Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 05:40:41 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.19 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon4 961159363 10.0.2.19 (Fri, 16 Jun 2000 05:42:43 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 05:42:43 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon4.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9784 arbane@soho.ios.com (Arbane the Terrible) wrote: >On Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:11:15 -0700, "Wil Hutton" >wrote: > >> >>So Christ is a zombie?! That's classsic *j/k* > >Nope--a vampire. > >"He gave His blood for you-- >AND NOW HE WANTS IT BACK." > >--From _The Last Days of Christ The Vampire_, by J. G. Eccarius, a >real book I read a long time ago... > >Do You Believe That? Sort of. It's inverted. Vampires are Christ figures. Although vampire-like creatures are common to many cultures, a lot of the trappings of the European vampire come from the middle ages. In order to avoid the heresy of Manichaeanism, Satan had to be less powerful than God. This became the doctrine that Satan is incapable of creation, and can only make imperfect copies of things in God's plan. If you had an evil thing, you had to find what it copied. Since Christ offered his blood to his followers and he died and was raised three days later, it's not difficult to see how and why Christ-like attributes were applied to vampires in European culture. So vampires rise after three days because Christ rose after three days, and they're an imperfect copy of Christ. The act of forcing a human to drink a vampire's blood is a kind of communion (although Stoker may have invented that for his novel; I've never run across it anywhere else; it does offer Mina Harker benefits like those experienced by participants in a Christian Mass). Since most gaming zombies are actually derived from George Romero's Night of the Living Dead, and Romero's zombies are actually derived from Richard Matheson's vampires in I Am Legend, there's a clear connection there. Actual voodoo zombies come from a different cultural mix and can't be related to Christ as easily. (This digression brought to you by the estate of Montague Summers. :-) John Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com ###### From: Lone Wolf Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:29:16 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8idh3i$qtu$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3947CE55.CBC8C5D0@usa.alcatel.com> <8i8mng$c9r$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8ias91$usp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8ib5ib$6ds$3@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.251.127.194 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Jun 16 15:29:16 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x73.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 206.251.127.194 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcrinos_wolf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9664 In article <8ib5ib$6ds$3@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim wrote: > And we need food. I won't deny that, but we also need blood. Do we go around drinking it? I don't think so. I think the analogy between a vampire's need for blood and our need for food is weak at best. -- Lone Wolf "When will you rage? Oh sometime next week..." -Mario Greymist, Glasswalker Ragabash Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:24:14 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 57 Message-ID: <394A70CE.7057C275@helsinki.fi> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> <3947AB43.4E983766@mail.usask.ca> <3948420D.781B1C92@mail.usask.ca> <39496354.62339BE5@mail.usask.ca> <8id2vc$f9e$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <394A8B46.41A5@le.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: eku.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 961179877 12581 128.214.182.194 (16 Jun 2000 18:24:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 2000 18:24:37 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9651 "A.F. Simpson" wrote: > > Tamim wrote: > > Kelly Ross Pedersen wrote: > > > > Very true. Ok, I give. They were phantoms of some sort, not just Wargs. > > > > Wrong. They were supernatural wolves: Wargs > > From the FotR > > " A great host of Wargs had gathered silently and was now attacking them > > from every side at once" > > > > If You do not trust Aragorns ranger skills as even Gandalf trusted, at > > least trust the storyteller > > OTOH, I don't think the sentence would be substantially improved by > instead saying, "A great host of Wargs (which in the morning will turn > out NOT to be Wargs but in fact Warg-like phantoms who's corpses > mysteriously disappear during the night, leaving unbroken arrows and no > signs of the upcoming fight and thereby worrying Gandalf into > precipitate flight towards Moria) had gathered silently and was now > attacking them from every side at once" > > I tihnk that the reader is seeing what the characters see, and so later > shares the discovery that the Wargs were more than they appeared to be. > Storytellers are under no obligation to reveal the substance rather than > the appearance. Neither are GMs, although I've found that players > sometimes seem to forget this. Fine, so you are disapproving Aragorn the famous ranger and the storyteller. You say that the supernatural wolves in the two books were of different 'soecies'. BASED ON WHAT? Because the bodies didn't disappear in TH? We don't know if they did because the characters flew away. Nobody mentions afterwards in the LotR that these were not Wargs, Gandalf is not even surprised. "When the full light of the morning came no signs of the wolves were to be found, and they looked in vain for the bodies of the dead. No trace of the fight remained but the charred trees and the arrows of Legolas lying on the hill-top. All were undamaged save one of which only the point was left. `It is as I feared,' said Gandalf. `These were no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness. Let us eat quickly and go!'" Wargs were certainlyno ordinary wolves, they planned and talked with each other and the orcs. They were cunning and vicious. Why would the two groups be diiferent non-ordinary wolves? Gandalf had feared that they were not ordinary wolves, but wargs. Notice that he didn't say:" It is as I feared, these were not wargs but Ghostsmonsters" No he said that these were not ordinary wolves. If you don't agree that wargs were not ordinary wolves, I will have to post few pages of quotation from the Hobbit. Tamim ###### From: "A.F. Simpson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:17:11 -0700 Organization: University of Leicester Lines: 31 Message-ID: <394A8B46.41A5@le.ac.uk> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> <3947AB43.4E983766@mail.usask.ca> <3948420D.781B1C92@mail.usask.ca> <39496354.62339BE5@mail.usask.ca> <8id2vc$f9e$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc42.cmht.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: rook.le.ac.uk 961157466 270179 143.210.176.54 (16 Jun 2000 12:11:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@le.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 2000 12:11:06 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!grolier!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!leicester!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9826 Tamim wrote: > Kelly Ross Pedersen wrote: > > Very true. Ok, I give. They were phantoms of some sort, not just Wargs. > > Wrong. They were supernatural wolves: Wargs > From the FotR > " A great host of Wargs had gathered silently and was now attacking them > from every side at once" > > If You do not trust Aragorns ranger skills as even Gandalf trusted, at > least trust the storyteller OTOH, I don't think the sentence would be substantially improved by instead saying, "A great host of Wargs (which in the morning will turn out NOT to be Wargs but in fact Warg-like phantoms who's corpses mysteriously disappear during the night, leaving unbroken arrows and no signs of the upcoming fight and thereby worrying Gandalf into precipitate flight towards Moria) had gathered silently and was now attacking them from every side at once" I tihnk that the reader is seeing what the characters see, and so later shares the discovery that the Wargs were more than they appeared to be. Storytellers are under no obligation to reveal the substance rather than the appearance. Neither are GMs, although I've found that players sometimes seem to forget this. > Tamim love Anna ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: Definition of undead X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2000Jun16.175739.15274@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CS Lab, University of Toronto References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8id2vc$f9e$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <394A8B46.41A5@le.ac.uk> <394A70CE.7057C275@helsinki.fi> Date: 16 Jun 2000 21:57:39 GMT Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9814 In article <394A70CE.7057C275@helsinki.fi>, Tamim wrote: >Fine, so you are disapproving Aragorn the famous ranger and the >storyteller. I don't think "disapproving" is the word you want here. Try "disagreeing with". >You say that the supernatural wolves in the two books were >of different 'soecies'. BASED ON WHAT? Because the bodies didn't >disappear in TH? >We don't know if they did because the characters flew away. Nobody >mentions afterwards in the LotR that these were not Wargs, Gandalf is >not even surprised. Not surprised per se, but he doesn't take it in stride either. >"When the full light of the morning came no signs of the wolves were to >be found, and they looked in vain for the bodies of the dead. No trace >of the fight remained but the charred trees and the arrows of Legolas >lying on the hill-top. All were undamaged save one of which only the >point was left. >`It is as I feared,' said Gandalf. `These were no ordinary wolves >hunting for food in the wilderness. Let us eat quickly and go!'" So how does this quote support your position? As you pointed out earlier, the creatures were identified as wargs before the fight. You argue that it's normal for wargs' bodies to disappear without a trace. Presumably Aragorn and Gandalf would know if that were the case, so why would they look for bodies then? ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: Definition of undead X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2000Jun16.175938.15607@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CS Lab, University of Toronto References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i9he5$tk8$1@madmax.keyway.net> <394837be.2315458@news.idt.net> <0575f78d.5f209a38@usw-ex0103-019.remarq.com> Date: 16 Jun 2000 21:59:38 GMT Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9815 In article <0575f78d.5f209a38@usw-ex0103-019.remarq.com>, jhmcmullen wrote: >>>So Christ is a zombie?! That's classsic *j/k* >> >>Nope--a vampire. [...] >Sort of. It's inverted. Vampires are Christ figures. [...] >Since Christ offered his blood to his followers and he died and >was raised three days later, it's not difficult to see how and >why Christ-like attributes were applied to vampires in European >culture. So vampires rise after three days because >Christ rose after three days, and they're an imperfect copy >of Christ. Vampires are Bizzarro Christs? ###### From: "A.F. Simpson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:06:18 -0700 Organization: University of Leicester Lines: 29 Message-ID: <394AC0FA.4921@le.ac.uk> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <3947CE55.CBC8C5D0@usa.alcatel.com> <8i8mng$c9r$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8ias91$usp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8ib5ib$6ds$3@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8idh3i$qtu$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc42.cmht.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: rook.le.ac.uk 961171220 264098 143.210.176.54 (16 Jun 2000 16:00:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@le.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 2000 16:00:20 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!leicester!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9827 Lone Wolf wrote: > In article <8ib5ib$6ds$3@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, > Tamim wrote: > > And we need food. > > I won't deny that, but we also need blood. Do we go around drinking it? > I don't think so. It's a cultural thing. People don't go around drinking human blood, but the Masai drink cows blood, and black pudding and jugged hare are acceptable Western dishes. > I think the analogy between a vampire's need for > blood and our need for food is weak at best. Vampires just have a very very narrow food source. Vampires drink blood, humming birds drink nectar. There are lots of creatures out there inhabiting narrow food niches which aren't undead. (Of course there's all the other stuff like rises from the grave, no heart beat, repelled by crosses, bursts into flames in sunlight, sleeps in coffin, etc which do tend to push vampires over to the 'undead' side of things.) > Lone Wolf love Anna ###### X-Originating-Host: 216.58.99.129 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Definition of undead Lines: 14 From: jhmcmullen Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <0578e2b0.22cd4bb6@usw-ex0104-032.remarq.com> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i9he5$tk8$1@madmax.keyway.net> <394837be.2315458@news.idt.net> <0575f78d.5f209a38@usw-ex0103-019.remarq.com> <2000Jun16.175938.15607@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Bytes: 233 X-Wren-Trace: eMHkzM3Uk9mSjNbE0Y3Mzd3B8c/Ti4jQ14PAx9yVitCYidSYgdiNgZySnA== Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:24:58 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.32 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon4 961205221 10.0.2.32 (Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:27:01 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:27:01 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon4.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9800 tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) wrote: > >Vampires are Bizzarro Christs? > Close enough for role-playing. Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com ###### From: "MacScarfe" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 04:59:41 +0100 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8iet5h$f79$1@uranium.btinternet.com> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> <3947AB43.4E983766@mail.usask.ca> <3948420D.781B1C92@mail.usask.ca> <39496354.62339BE5@mail.usask.ca> <8id2vc$f9e$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <394A8B46.41A5@le.ac.uk> <394A70CE.7057C275@helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-7-72-220.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!btnet-peer0!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9779 Tamim wrote in message news:394A70CE.7057C275@helsinki.fi... > "When the full light of the morning came no signs of the wolves were to > be found, and they looked in vain for the bodies of the dead. No trace > of the fight remained but the charred trees and the arrows of Legolas > lying on the hill-top. All were undamaged save one of which only the > point was left. > `It is as I feared,' said Gandalf. `These were no ordinary wolves > hunting for food in the wilderness. Let us eat quickly and go!'" > > Wargs were certainlyno ordinary wolves, they planned and talked with > each other and the orcs. They were cunning and vicious. Why would the > two groups be diiferent non-ordinary wolves? Gandalf had feared that > they were not ordinary wolves, but wargs. Notice that he didn't say:" It > is as I feared, these were not wargs but Ghostsmonsters" No he said that > these were not ordinary wolves. If you don't agree that wargs were not > ordinary wolves, I will have to post few pages of quotation from the > Hobbit. > > > Tamim I think your using a negative to prove a postitive, as it were. Just because the wolves were not ordinary it dosn't mean they were Wargs, they could equally have been something else. Yes Wargs are not ordinary wolves, but neither are carrots and both could equally apply to the same quotation. David Scarfe ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 17 Jun 2000 05:39:33 GMT References: <3949A96B.7DD8@wizvax.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000617013933.17424.00003254@nso-fg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9712 In article <3949A96B.7DD8@wizvax.net>, Sea Wasp writes: > Beg pardon? You channeled the spirit of J.R.R. Tolkien? Why, I bow >down before your mighty mystical powers. I don't channel him, but his spirit does drop by once in awhile for tea and we tend to chat, so when this came up I asked him and he-- What? You're not J.R.R. Tolkien? You're J.R.T. Tolkien? And I've been giving you tea all these years? Get the hell out of my house. Sorry, folks. Nevermind. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 17 Jun 2000 05:39:33 GMT References: <8ia32u$vdm@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000617013933.17424.00003255@nso-fg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9714 In article <8ia32u$vdm@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>, "Mark Buckley" writes: >I think the Jagji of the temples of Sarku (Tekumel) while being technically >zombies, appear no different to living persons (unless they forget to >pretend to breathe...) Lack of a need to breathe would seem to qualify as a "sign that they are truly living in my book". Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: graf@arduin-delos.com-nospam Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Organization: none Message-ID: <39647d1b.34935896@news.sonic.net> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i8o31$dhl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39493A2B.501C@le.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 03:13:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.204.150.116 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 961384392 209.204.150.116 (Sun, 18 Jun 2000 20:13:12 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 20:13:12 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!208.201.224.154!typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9934 On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:18:51 -0700, "A.F. Simpson" wrote: >peacefulcut@my-deja.com wrote: > >> > What would be the difference between a spirit or Maia or >> > angel and an undead monster? >> >> I've always thought of angels (and Maiar) as pure spirit, with >> the power to manifest a physical form if required, but not >> having a body in their "natural" state. > >To use the analogy from the Silmarillion, their bodies are just clothes >and if they don't use a physical body it diminishes them no more than a >person undressing. Air and Angels. Yes, that is the way I understand it. Angels and demons etc have their own source for life-force on their own non-physical plane. Their natural body is non-physical, and they can form and disperse a physical body as needed. Vampires and other undead are parasitical -- they need human life-force to power their bodies, and get it through blood, level-drains, etc. When a human body loses its normal source (soul etc), then if it is to continue to be animated, it needs to steal energy from humans who still have their source. Graf ----------------------------------------------------- Graf D.V.B.G.S. Posvalsky of Delos -- "Arduin Lives!" Grimoires IV-VIII at http://www.arduin-delos.com (Unless noted, all spells I mention are from Dragon Tree Spell Book.) Please email me if you have any trouble accessing my site. ###### From: BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: 19 Jun 2000 05:52:04 GMT Organization: Bureau of Transport Economics Lines: 43 Message-ID: <8ikce4$9bs273@cook.dotrs.gov.au> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i80uj$d8e$9@news01.cit.cornell.edu> <8i8irt$7tf$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <39493042.72E477AD@helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.120.132.197 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!cook.dotrs.gov.au!newsmaster Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:9957 In article <39493042.72E477AD@helsinki.fi>, Tamim wrote... > >Brett Evill wrote: >> >> The wolves that attack the fellowship near Moria are different from the >> wargs in 'The Hobbit', and therefore, I think, probably not wargs. For a >> start, they have no real bodies, unlike true wargs. >> >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Brett Evill > >From the FotR, Ajourney in the dark: >" Suddenly Aragorn leapt to his feet. ' How thw wind howls!' he cried. ' >It is howling with wolf-voices. The Wargs have come west of the >Mountains!' >'Need we wait until morning then?' Said Gandalf. 'It is as I said. The >hunt is up...." > >Remember that Aragorn does not make mistakes in these things. Not given. Aragorn is the greatest hunter and traveller in Middle-Earth (according to Gandalf). But that does not make him infallible. If it were normal for wargs to vanish without trace when 'killed', Aragorn would not have bothered to search for bodies of those killed and traces of the fight. But he did search, and only when their search was in vain were Gandalf's fears confirmed. If Aragorn were infallible as you say, and such phenomena normal for wargs, Gandalf would not have waited until morning to say 'It is as I feared. These were no ordinary wolves searching for food in the wilderness'. He would have known, not feared, from the moment Aragorn spoke. Regards, -- Brett Evill (The opinions expressed above are not those of the Bureau of Transport Economics, the Federal Department of Transport and Regional Services, or the Australian Commonwealth Government.) ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: Definition of undead X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2000Jun19.172747.23290@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CSLab, University of Toronto References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <0575f78d.5f209a38@usw-ex0103-019.remarq.com> <2000Jun16.175938.15607@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <0578e2b0.22cd4bb6@usw-ex0104-032.remarq.com> Date: 19 Jun 2000 21:27:47 GMT Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:10039 In article <0578e2b0.22cd4bb6@usw-ex0104-032.remarq.com>, jhmcmullen wrote: >>Vampires are Bizzarro Christs? >> > >Close enough for role-playing. Cool! I'm going to join the most pretentious V:tM group I can find and then constantly have my character refer to himself as "Me" all the time and say "Good-bye" when greeting people and such.:) "Me Bizarro Christ! Me expect you to die for ME sins!" ###### From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:16:47 -0400 Organization: Prometheus Corp. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <394EC5FF.5929@erols.com> References: <8i7pnh$9aa$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <0575f78d.5f209a38@usw-ex0103-019.remarq.com> <2000Jun16.175938.15607@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <0578e2b0.22cd4bb6@usw-ex0104-032.remarq.com> <2000Jun19.172747.23290@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Reply-To: richberg@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: aVH1knFdLbuJUiFnERd8nttN7dAis9GZQh3UvCNAh64= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jun 2000 01:18:45 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:10080 Trevor Barrie wrote: > > In article <0578e2b0.22cd4bb6@usw-ex0104-032.remarq.com>, > jhmcmullen wrote: > > >>Vampires are Bizzarro Christs? > >> > > > >Close enough for role-playing. > > Cool! I'm going to join the most pretentious V:tM group I can find > and then constantly have my character refer to himself as "Me" all > the time and say "Good-bye" when greeting people and such.:) > > "Me Bizarro Christ! Me expect you to die for ME sins!" Quite appropriate for a Malkavian, I suppose. (One I tried as a LARP character was a Malkavian who dressed just like I do. Absolute non-poser vamp. No jargon, just living a normal (un-)life. Annoyed the Hell out of the Goth wannabe contingent.) ###### From: Scott Barrie Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:37:41 -0400 Organization: The University of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Canada Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3bq5ls0vt3q67fb8npenv6phg08enmoqvh@4ax.com> References: <8ia32u$vdm@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk> <20000617013933.17424.00003255@nso-fg.aol.com> <8iuidd$cqn@epic16.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: trollsden.physics.uwo.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: panther.uwo.ca 961735078 28576 129.100.24.149 (23 Jun 2000 04:37:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@julian.uwo.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 2000 04:37:58 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:10691 On 22 Jun 2000 19:35:25 -0700, jmbay@Stanford.EDU (Joseph Michael Bay) wrote: >triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) writes: >>In article <8ia32u$vdm@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>, "Mark Buckley" >> writes: > >>>I think the Jagji of the temples of Sarku (Tekumel) while being technically >>>zombies, appear no different to living persons (unless they forget to >>>pretend to breathe...) > >>Lack of a need to breathe would seem to qualify as a "sign that they are truly >>living in my book". > >Huh? > >They don't need to breathe, and thus are *more* like living creatures? Clearly a "not" is missing from Justin's post. Scott B. Barrie Physics Grad Student Quest Free RPG -AD&D flavour, but without the annoying parts. And I didn't write it http://trollsden.physics.uwo.ca/quest.htm ###### Message-ID: <3952FA86.6330E1EA@my-deja.what-do-you-think.com> From: Deykin ap Gwion X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead References: <8ia32u$vdm@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk> <20000617013933.17424.00003255@nso-fg.aol.com> <8iuidd$cqn@epic16.Stanford.EDU> <3bq5ls0vt3q67fb8npenv6phg08enmoqvh@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:49:58 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.108.105.216 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 961739042 207.108.105.216 (Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:44:02 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:44:02 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:10684 Scott Barrie wrote: > > On 22 Jun 2000 19:35:25 -0700, jmbay@Stanford.EDU (Joseph Michael Bay) > wrote: > >triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) writes: > >>In article <8ia32u$vdm@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>, "Mark Buckley" > >> writes: > > > >>>I think the Jagji of the temples of Sarku (Tekumel) while being technically > >>>zombies, appear no different to living persons (unless they forget to > >>>pretend to breathe...) > > > >>Lack of a need to breathe would seem to qualify as a "sign that they are truly > >>living in my book". > > > >Huh? > > > >They don't need to breathe, and thus are *more* like living creatures? > > Clearly a "not" is missing from Justin's post. *giggle* So, that would mean a need to breathe would qualify as living in his book. But why would they want to live in his book? Can't find anything else to sublet? Deykin ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Jun 2000 06:01:26 GMT References: <8i9he5$tk8$1@madmax.keyway.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000623020126.04996.00000776@ng-ci1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:10543 << > I think that you have to distinguish something that is dead but refuses to > lie down from something that was dead but is now alive again, like the > risen Christ or a person who has been resuscitated after drowning. So Christ is a zombie?! >> The theological implications are staggering. "And the risen Jesus spoke unto them, saying 'Braaaaaiiiinnnnnssss.......'" (Romero 3:16) (Boy do I hope God has a sense of humor.) ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Jun 2000 06:03:48 GMT References: <2000Jun19.172747.23290@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000623020348.04996.00000778@ng-ci1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:10548 << Cool! I'm going to join the most pretentious V:tM group I can find and then constantly have my character refer to himself as "Me" all the time and say "Good-bye" when greeting people and such.:) "Me Bizarro Christ! Me expect you to die for ME sins!" >> Okay, next DC HEROES game I run- Superman meets Bizarro Christ. ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Lines: 6 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Jun 2000 06:05:07 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000623020507.04996.00000779@ng-ci1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:10546 << No, but the absence of a soul is hard to determine empirically, especially in a fantasy world where they have not invented the saxophone. >> Have a Bard ask the guy "Who's the black private dick who's a sex machine to all the chicks?" ###### From: simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:49:54 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <8ivmdd$ta3$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000615010244.10241.00003023@nso-bh.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.81.254.12 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Jun 23 12:49:54 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 MPAL81PRXY02, 1.0 x59.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 62.81.254.12 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsimonh_hibbs Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:10507 In article , b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) wrote: > In article <20000615010244.10241.00003023@nso-bh.aol.com>, > triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote: > > > > Most undead tend to have very definite signs that they are not truly living: > > The lack of a heartbeat; the continued rotting of their bodies; etc. In some > > cases this connection can be *extremely* ephemeral (nothing more than a > "stench > > of death" which clings to them or the "lack of a soul", for example). Can you > > think of an instance where this wasn't true? > > No, but the absence of a soul is hard to determine empirically, especially > in a fantasy world where they have not invented the saxophone. That depends very much on the world. A fantasy world in which the inhabitants have developed a sophisticated practical magical philosophy may find it very easy to determine the presence or otherwise of a soul. To be more precise, they're more likely to distinguish between different portions of the soul, in a similar way to the Egyptians. The Dara Happans of Glorantha distinguish between 6 parts of the soul, while the Lunar religion knows of 7, for example. Different undead most likely lack different portions of their soul, which determines their nature. Simon Hibbs Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 25 Jun 2000 19:50:38 GMT References: <8iuidd$cqn@epic16.Stanford.EDU> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000625155038.23178.00004260@nso-fz.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:10851 In article <8iuidd$cqn@epic16.Stanford.EDU>, jmbay@Stanford.EDU (Joseph Michael Bay) writes: >>Lack of a need to breathe would seem to qualify as a "sign that they are >truly >>living in my book". > >Huh? > >They don't need to breathe, and thus are *more* like living creatures? > Typo of the original criteria: "not truly living" Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: jim@moose.powernet.co.uk.hat (Jim Davies) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:22:53 GMT Reply-To: jim@moose.powernet.co.uk.hat Message-ID: <39567e23.2157764@news.powernet.co.uk> References: <20000615010244.10241.00003023@nso-bh.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.60.5.101 X-Trace: 26 Jun 2000 23:37:28 +0100, 195.60.5.101 Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!easynet-melon!easynet.net!btnet-feed2!btnet!news.power.net.uk!195.60.5.101 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:10983 On 15 Jun 2000 05:02:44 GMT, triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote: >Most undead tend to have very definite signs that they are not truly living: >The lack of a heartbeat; the continued rotting of their bodies; etc. In some >cases this connection can be *extremely* ephemeral (nothing more than a "stench >of death" which clings to them or the "lack of a soul", for example). Can you >think of an instance where this wasn't true? Depending on your game world, all manner of squishies might have these properties: elementals, golems, demons, assorted space aliens, abbatoir robots and so on. Most of these don't breathe either. Even the requirement that the creature was alive, then dead, then animated again doesn't close the loopholes. Think of The Fungus Among Us from Pyramid 1, for example. I think it all comes down to the individual game system. Whether something is actually undead is irrelevant unless it has a game effect, and the rules ought to cope with the creatures in the applicable fashion. Incidentally, the word 'undead' is undefined in my Shorter OED (1972). Jim Davies ------------------------------------------ Spamfilter: remove all clothing to reply. This does not affect your statutory rights. ###### From: b.evill@tyndale.SPAM.apana.org.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Message-ID: References: <20000615010244.10241.00003023@nso-bh.aol.com> <39567e23.2157764@news.powernet.co.uk> Organization: Tesseract Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: tynslip4.apana.org.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 962079250 202.12.90.168 (Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:14:10 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:14:10 EST Distribution: world Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:13:54 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:11041 In article <39567e23.2157764@news.powernet.co.uk>, jim@moose.powernet.co.uk.hat wrote: > Incidentally, the word 'undead' is undefined in my Shorter OED (1972). It does appear in my Webster's Collegiate (1999): "undead n, plural undead (1897) 1: VAMPIRE 1 2: ZOMBIE 1b" -- Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: grixit@NOUCE.gci-net.com (Dr Pepper) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Definition of undead Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 05:21:29 GMT Organization: GG TECH: Fandom and conversation (42:4802/1001) Lines: 26 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Message-ID: <42:4802/1001@Candynet 75122dcf> X-Gate: grixit@gci-net.com X-Poster: Net-Tamer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:15621 X-From: grixit@NOUCE.gci-net.com (Dr Pepper) On Wed 14 Jun 2000 11:19, Tamim wrote to ALL about "Definition of undead". T> Hi, how do you people define "undead"? T> For example would you consider Wargs in the Hobbit and in the T> LotR as undead wolves? Huh? No, they are just wolves. T> What would be the difference between a T> spirit or Maia or angel and an undead monster? Undead is something once mortal that has had some important attributes of life taken from it, possibly passing through a period of actual death, and rendering it parasitic on the living world to make up that lack. Hence maiar are not. The nazgul may be, certainly the suffix "gul" in a word created by a linguistics freak is suggestive. They certainly lack freewill and depend on Sauron for their motivation. | 10 2 | grixit | DR PEPPER | @ | 4 | gci-net.com ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: 22 Aug 2000 22:45:02 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 45 Message-ID: <6uzom5nhyp.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 966977102 873 10.0.3.2 (22 Aug 2000 20:45:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 2000 20:45:02 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:15644 grixit@NOUCE.gci-net.com (Dr Pepper) writes: > On Wed 14 Jun 2000 11:19, Tamim wrote to ALL about "Definition of > undead". > > T> What would be the difference between a > T> spirit or Maia or angel and an undead monster? > > Undead is something once mortal that has had some important attributes > of life taken from it, One important attribute: life. > lack. Hence maiar are not. The nazgul may be, Nazgul are not undead. They never died and can still be killed (see the witch kings fate, "too be killed, not by a man"). The were simply "stretched infinitely in time" and become invisible to the material world (and visible in the spirit world). > "gul" in a word created by a linguistics freak is suggestive. They Where do you get that interpretation from? Nazg = ring, ul = "of the". So Nazgul is best translated as "(servant) of the ring". For a recent discussion of this issue: http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/rec.arts.books.tolkien/20000811_Why_Nazgul > certainly lack freewill and depend on Sauron for their motivation. The (= their will) were/was under the control of (= subjected to) Sauron. That was the effect of the rings. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: Darel Finkbeiner Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:25:02 -0500 Lines: 33 Message-ID: <39A2EFAE.331775A6@mailandnews.com> References: <6uzom5nhyp.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.29.24.34 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 966979839 9995743 12.29.24.34 (16 [32862]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!12.29.24.34!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:15712 Neil Franklin wrote: > grixit@NOUCE.gci-net.com (Dr Pepper) writes: > > > On Wed 14 Jun 2000 11:19, Tamim wrote to ALL about "Definition of > > undead". > > > > T> What would be the difference between a > > T> spirit or Maia or angel and an undead monster? > > > > Undead is something once mortal that has had some important attributes > > of life taken from it, > > One important attribute: life. > That is not necessarily true. They are "un"dead. They may have had life taken from them, but it is often used of those whose "soul" has been taken, rather than "life". They are "not entirely alive", maybe that's a good description. But OTOH, they are "not entirely dead". Thus, they are undead. One thing that always seems to be consistent in undead is lack of "soul". Thus, all of them seem to be under the control of some other power. Even those that in turn control other creatures are themselves controlled by some other thing. Sometimes this thing is merely an attachment, such as a ghost who haunts the area around where he was killed. That is what binds him. A revenant or avenging undead is held either by the power of a living person or by the need to revenge it's murder. That emotion controls it. ###### From: Cruinne Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Definition of undead Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 02:50:22 GMT Organization: Arcadia Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8nve57$510$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.239.135.18 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Aug 23 02:50:22 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x67.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.239.135.18 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcruinne Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:15665 |> They certainly lack freewill and depend on Sauron for |> their motivation. Yes! :) And I always do this with run-of-the-mill undead too: they can't "evolve" and "grow" the way living people do--they're incapable (or unwilling) to seek personal enlightenment and betterment. They tend to obsess around one deed, one location, or even one person and that thing becomes the be-all, end-all of their existance -- Moderated Fantasy Role-playing http://pub6.ezboard.com/barcadia Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: Definition of undead X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2000Aug23.021308.2680@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CSLab, University of Toronto References: <6uzom5nhyp.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Date: 23 Aug 2000 06:13:08 GMT Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!torn!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:15778 In article <6uzom5nhyp.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >> "gul" in a word created by a linguistics freak is suggestive. They > >Where do you get that interpretation from? > >Nazg = ring, ul = "of the". So Nazgul is best translated as "(servant) >of the ring". > >For a recent discussion of this issue: > >http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/rec.arts.books.tolkien/20000811_Why_Nazgul And if you page down through that discussion far enough, you'll find that somebody posted the following snippet from Tolkien's guide to translators: _Ring-wraiths_. This is a translation of the Black Speech _Nazgul_, from _nazg_ 'ring' and _gul_, any one of the major invisible servants of Sauron dominated entirely by his will. Since the "of the" interpretation was somebody's speculation and this comes from Tolkien, I'd say it's definitive. (Unless the poster misquoted, but I expect somebody on rec.arts.books.tolkien would have called him on that.) ###### From: grixit@NOUCE.gci-net.com (Dr Pepper) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Definition of undead Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 05:06:45 GMT Organization: GG TECH: Fandom and conversation (42:4802/1001) Lines: 38 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Message-ID: <42:4802/1001@Candynet 7702151d> X-Gate: grixit@gci-net.com X-Poster: Net-Tamer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:16052 X-From: grixit@NOUCE.gci-net.com (Dr Pepper) On Wed 23 Aug 2000 2:50, Cruinne wrote to ALL about "Definition of undead". |>> They certainly lack freewill and depend on Sauron for |>> their motivation. C> Yes! :) C> And I always do this with run-of-the-mill undead too: they C> can't "evolve" and "grow" the way living people do--they're C> incapable (or unwilling) to seek personal enlightenment and C> betterment. They tend to obsess around one deed, one location, C> or even one person and that thing becomes the be-all, end-all C> of their existance Exactly. I had one sequence that started with the party awakening a lich, a former ruler of the city they were in. Ordinary clerical action was of little use since she'd been deposed and executed by secular authority, her divine right remained. Well, as the lich attempted to take control, recruiting from the disaffected and using an army of zombies to build a castle, the party of course tried to fight her. No go. She gave them an ultimatum, join her by sunrise or die. They snuck away during the night :) Thing is, however intelligent and aware the lich seemed, her knowledge and comprehension encompassed only the city. Nothing else existed for her. So, while the player characters feared pursuit, in fact, once they left, she entirely forgot about them. | 10 2 | grixit | DR PEPPER | @ | 4 | gci-net.com