From: Nis Haller Baggesen Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Close combat questions. Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:45:39 +0200 Organization: daimi.au.dk Lines: 26 Message-ID: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: titus.daimi.au.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: xinwen.daimi.au.dk 959089540 17024643 255.255.255.255 (23 May 2000 13:45:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@daimi.au.dk NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 May 2000 13:45:40 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX 6.5 IP32) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.nikoma.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!newspeer.ebone.net!news.net.uni-c.dk!news.daimi.au.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7163 Well - With that broad a subject line, I better get specific now. My main question is how much of an advantge is strength and size in close combat - Both with weapons and without weapons? In RPG's close combat skill is based mainly on dexterity, and strength only supplies the damage. But it seems to me that it should be much harder to parry a forcefull blow than a weak one (obviously), and so I wondered if a sufficiently hard blow wont cut through any parry. On the other hand, how much can technique and agility make up for lack of strength with regard to parries and shieldblocks. Likewise size mostlyu just give you hitpoins in rpgs, but shouldn't it also give you a combat advatage. If you have twice the reach of whoever you are fighting with, how will the other guy ever get close? Shouldn't weapons that have a high moment of inertia, such as axes or maces, be harder to deflect than lighter and more balanced weapons such as rapiers and sword? mvh Nis ###### From: "S. John Ross" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Close combat questions. Date: 23 May 2000 14:36:27 GMT Organization: Diogenes Studios Lines: 15 Message-ID: <01bfc4c4$597f1cc0$446902d0@john---sandra> References: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> X-Trace: hiram.io.com 959092587 15457 208.2.105.68 (23 May 2000 14:36:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@io.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!korova.insync.net!solomon.io.com!hiram.io.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7200 There are several game systems that take these factors into account to varying degrees (GURPS touches on all of them). As far as whether any game system "should" account for such stuff ... I'm not a big "should" guy. Games have a long list of potential things to model; different games choose different items from the list in order to suit the tone and focus of the game. There is no "should." || S. John Ross || Husband · Cook · Writer || In That Order || http://www.io.com/~sjohn/fonts.htm - FONTS FOR GAMERS ###### From: danbuter@aol.comnojunk (Danbuter) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Close combat questions. Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 May 2000 22:20:23 GMT References: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000523182023.26447.00000499@ng-cl1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7261 >My main question is how much of an advantge is strength and size in >close combat - Both with weapons and without weapons? > >In RPG's close combat skill is based mainly on dexterity, and strength >only supplies the damage. But it seems to me that it should be much >harder to parry a forcefull blow than a weak one (obviously), and so I >wondered if a sufficiently hard blow wont cut through any parry. On the >other hand, how much can technique and agility make up for lack of >strength with regard to parries and shieldblocks. Superior strength is a major advantage in close combat. You can throw the other guy around or force him into doing something he doesn't want to do. On the other hand, someone who is well-trained will almost always beat someone who has no training. >Likewise size mostlyu just give you hitpoins in rpgs, but shouldn't it >also give you a combat advatage. If you have twice the reach of whoever >you are fighting with, how will the other guy ever get close? > You're better off to be shorter in close range fighting. It gives you more leverage against the bigger guy. And you're better off being taller at medium range, as you have a greater reach advantage. >Shouldn't weapons that have a high moment of inertia, such as axes or >maces, be harder to deflect than lighter and more balanced weapons such >as rapiers and sword? > Makes sense to me. Dan ...all opinions are mine, and therefor correct ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Close combat questions. Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:21:01 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 24 Message-ID: <392C2B9D.153C96C3@myriad.net> References: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> <06205528.a471a532@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 May 2000 21:13:14 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!news-feeds.jump.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7290 metal-dog wrote: > > I recommend going with a game with simple game mechanics that > aren't too restrictive and just wing the details as part of the > combat narrative. I.e: When a weak character fails to parry blow > from a big but slow opponent explain it away as "You put the > dagger in the way of the Giant's club, but to no avail. The Giant > with it's superior strength simply drives the clup through your > futile block." The problem is more those cases where a weak character DOES parry a blow from a big, strong opponent... repeatedly. Yes, little Bob Boyscout with his 99% Penknife skill can easily deal with your mighty giant. He parries the huge club repeatedly with his little penknife, cutting suspension of disbelief to little shreds... :-) I've been trying to come up with a reasonable rule for this for my game. I'm currently thinking about giving each weapon a rating for the maximum amount of damage it can block without breaking. Another option is some sort of 'impact damage' rules, where you can block a blow successfully but STILL be injured by it. Haven't decided how that would work, yet, though. :-) Kiz ###### X-Originating-Host: 212.97.197.182 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Close combat questions. Lines: 36 From: metal-dog Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <06205528.a471a532@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com> References: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> Bytes: 1818 X-Wren-Trace: eH1YcHFoL2UuMGxheTExcGBpTWJ8dzh/dXB7cjpqazAyKWwuPWQ/PSAlLjYiZTw= Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:26:35 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.8 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 959197096 10.0.2.8 (Wed, 24 May 2000 12:38:16 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:38:16 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7351 The problem with taking these sorts of details into consideration in an RPG, is that it usually requires you to add even more detail to have the system make sense. Soon you're so overburdened with details, that you need an entire A4 sheet of numbers of figures for each participant in a combat, and it still doesn't all make sense. The only system I know of that takes absolutely all of this into account is ARIA, which i consider impossible to play. If you think you want to check it out anyway it was published (but no longer supported, evidently) by LUG. The "basic" book (a 500+ page giant) has the ISBN 09645-9030-L. However in Shadowrun for example, the rules take the weapon's length into consideration but not how well balanced or accurate it is with the result, that a huge combat axe is in all respects (except concealability) a superior weapon to the katana. Runequest allows bigger characters (with greater reach) wielding longer weapons to attack sooner than smaller characters with shorter weapons, but doesn't take into consideration, the time it takes to swing the weapon. In the time it takes to deliver a blow with a great big axe, a knife-fighter should "realistically" be able to deliver maybe half a dozen stabs. I recommend going with a game with simple game mechanics that aren't too restrictive and just wing the details as part of the combat narrative. I.e: When a weak character fails to parry blow from a big but slow opponent explain it away as "You put the dagger in the way of the Giant's club, but to no avail. The Giant with it's superior strength simply drives the clup through your futile block." * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: Graham Wills Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Close combat questions. Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:11:45 -0500 Organization: Bell Laboratories Lines: 46 Message-ID: <392C3781.281B3B31@research.bell-labs.com> References: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: notmafia.research.bell-labs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73C-SGI [en] (X11; U; IRIX64 6.5 IP27) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!zur.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7354 Answering for the three systems I am GMing at the moment Nis Haller Baggesen wrote: > In RPG's close combat skill is based mainly on dexterity, and strength > only supplies the damage. But it seems to me that it should be much > harder to parry a forcefull blow than a weak one (obviously), and so I > wondered if a sufficiently hard blow wont cut through any parry. On the > other hand, how much can technique and agility make up for lack of > strength with regard to parries and shieldblocks. EVERWAY: Characters don't have dex or strength. Combat ability is based on the FIRE stat, with ability to take damage based on the EARTH stat. I guess FIRE includes both Dex & Str. No specific skills like parry or shieldblock exist. CoCTHULHU: Your skill is not affected by strength or dexterity. Parrying is based entirely on your skill with a weapon. ROLEMASTER: Close combat skill is based on a mix of STR and DEX, with different mixes for different weapons. Parrying is based of weapon skill also and shieldblock skill factors both STR and DEX. > Likewise size mostlyu just give you hitpoins in rpgs, but shouldn't it > also give you a combat advatage. If you have twice the reach of whoever > you are fighting with, how will the other guy ever get close? EVERWAY,CoCTHULHU: Ignored. too detailed ROLEMASTER: Reach gives you an initial advantage, but not a persistant one. > Shouldn't weapons that have a high moment of inertia, such as axes or > maces, be harder to deflect than lighter and more balanced weapons such > as rapiers and sword? An alternative point of view is that they require so much push to get them going, it's much easier to see where they're going to hit and so prepare to deflect them. - Graham -- Graham Wills Data Visualization, Bell Labs gwills@research.bell-labs.com +1 (630) 979 7338 http://www.bell-labs.com/~gwills Silk for Calde! ###### From: Deric Page Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Close combat questions. Message-ID: References: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> <06205528.a471a532@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com> <392C2B9D.153C96C3@myriad.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:56:40 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.87.56.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@primary.net X-Trace: news1.primary.net 959223609 216.87.56.30 (Wed, 24 May 2000 22:00:09 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:00:09 CDT Organization: Primary Network http://www.primary.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.new-york.net!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp1.savvis.net!feed1.primary.net!news1.primary.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7384 On Wed, 24 May 2000 19:21:01 +0000, thunder crashed as "Frank T. Sronce" dramatically intoned: > > The problem is more those cases where a weak character DOES parry a >blow from a big, strong opponent... repeatedly. Yes, little Bob >Boyscout with his 99% Penknife skill can easily deal with your mighty >giant. He parries the huge club repeatedly with his little penknife, >cutting suspension of disbelief to little shreds... :-) > I've been trying to come up with a reasonable rule for this for my >game. I'm currently thinking about giving each weapon a rating for the >maximum amount of damage it can block without breaking. Another option >is some sort of 'impact damage' rules, where you can block a blow >successfully but STILL be injured by it. Haven't decided how that would >work, yet, though. :-) > The only problem I have with this is that it ignores a rather fundamental concept in parrying, that you deflect the blow rather than block it outright. Now admittedly, I would imagine it would be hard to deflect a _giant's_ attack but that's at least partly due to sheer mass rather than power and I still don't necessarily think this means your weapon will break. I've not done any studies, but I'd imagine your arm would be knocked out of position before a properly constructed weapon would break. So, a combatant's skill and style of fighting (as I know some styles do advocate hard blocks) would figure at least as much into the possibility of weapon breakage (and actually more IHMO). As for a high-strength warrior just blowing through a weaker person's parry, it would again depend on if you're talking about a hard block or a deflection. Deflections (which are re-directions of force rather than meeting it head-on) require far less strength to be successful. So again, I think it would be more a matter of skill, speed/timing and style of parry rather than sheer strength in determining if an attack got past a parry. Deric Page deric.page@usa.net www.geocities.com/soho/cafe/7353 ***** "Everything starts as someone's daydream." - Larry Niven ###### From: "Author Lau" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Close combat questions. Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:00:12 +0800 Organization: IMS Netvigator Lines: 47 Message-ID: <8gi8bf$37a8@imsp212.netvigator.com> References: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: yckun211147.netvigator.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!CensurBot.NetScum.Dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsgate.netvigator.com!imsp212.netvigator.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7343 Nis Haller Baggesen wrote in message news:392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk... > Well - With that broad a subject line, I better get specific now. > > My main question is how much of an advantge is strength and size in > close combat - Both with weapons and without weapons? > > In RPG's close combat skill is based mainly on dexterity, and strength > only supplies the damage. But it seems to me that it should be much > harder to parry a forcefull blow than a weak one (obviously), and so I > wondered if a sufficiently hard blow wont cut through any parry. On the > other hand, how much can technique and agility make up for lack of > strength with regard to parries and shieldblocks. For RuneQuest (maybe 3rd edition), a big ax can be parried by a dagger. Then the ax will roll for damage. If the damage is higher than the Armor point of dagger, the extra point do the damage and the dagger is damaged (reduce the armor point by one, some GM will reduce more if the damage is very big). The difference of dagger and shield parry is the armor point, the starting skill level, and parry missile is shield only. > > Likewise size mostlyu just give you hitpoins in rpgs, but shouldn't it > also give you a combat advatage. If you have twice the reach of whoever > you are fighting with, how will the other guy ever get close? > It is the average of SIZ and CON for RuneQuest hit point. For the advantage of SIZ in melee, it affect the initial. You can hit first. Big advantage for low hp, skill based RPG. > Shouldn't weapons that have a high moment of inertia, such as axes or > maces, be harder to deflect than lighter and more balanced weapons such > as rapiers and sword? > Both light and heavy weapon are deadly. For a lighter weapon, user can change the attack angle while defense side try to block or dodge. For a heavy weapon, once it go, either attacker or defenser can stop it. > mvh > > Nis > > > ###### From: grimbunny2@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Close combat questions. Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:42:48 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8gjl64$g39$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> <06205528.a471a532@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com> <392C2B9D.153C96C3@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.48.172.20 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 25 16:42:48 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x62.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.48.172.20 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDgrimbunny2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7294 In article <392C2B9D.153C96C3@myriad.net>, "Frank T. Sronce" wrote: > metal-dog wrote: > > > > I recommend going with a game with simple game mechanics that > > aren't too restrictive and just wing the details as part of the > > combat narrative. I.e: When a weak character fails to parry blow > > from a big but slow opponent explain it away as "You put the > > dagger in the way of the Giant's club, but to no avail. The Giant > > with it's superior strength simply drives the clup through your > > futile block." > > The problem is more those cases where a weak character DOES parry a > blow from a big, strong opponent... repeatedly. Yes, little Bob > Boyscout with his 99% Penknife skill can easily deal with your mighty > giant. He parries the huge club repeatedly with his little penknife, > cutting suspension of disbelief to little shreds... :-) Well not absolutely. A parry can be used to push yourself away from the enemys weapon by bashing your weapon against his, if you are strong but nowhere near as strong as your opponent physics may come into play and the combined force of your parry and your foes blow get you the heck out of the way of the blow you just kinda bounce away. Not every parry in a hard parry where you interpose your weapon directly against the opponents blow. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: grimbunny2@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Close combat questions. Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:53:18 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8gjlpm$ghm$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <392A8B83.2801AF32@daimi.au.dk> <06205528.a471a532@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.48.172.20 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 25 16:53:18 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x62.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.48.172.20 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDgrimbunny2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7308 > not how well balanced or accurate it is with the result, that a > huge combat axe is in all respects (except concealability) a > superior weapon to the katana. Runequest allows bigger characters > (with greater reach) wielding longer weapons to attack sooner > than > smaller characters with shorter weapons, but doesn't take into > consideration, the time it takes to swing the weapon. In the time > it takes to deliver a blow with a great big axe, a knife-fighter > should "realistically" be able to deliver maybe half a dozen > stabs. well "realistically" that knife fighter would do a good job if he could suprise the axe weilder but on a one-on one i see you you see me we know we are gonna fight type of fight the axe weilder would probably make very short work of the knife fighter. The axe weilder could quickly chop off/into a hand and knock a weapon away casuing the kinfe fighter to recoil in pain before being split in two by the follow-up blow from the axe weilder. But a strong little guy with a simliar wepon and fighting style to your own can be a real terror ,if you let the squirt get inside your guard you end up lossing lots of possible passes and blows and the little guy is pretty much fully capable. You are certainly right go with simple over complex unless of course your group of players ALL want to do complex combat and are up to paying attention and having fun with such a system. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.