From: "Wil Hutton" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:45:29 -0700 Organization: Keyway Internet Service www.keyway.net Lines: 36 Message-ID: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: o003-dyna-179.keyway.net X-Trace: madmax.keyway.net 958693685 18125 207.155.49.179 (18 May 2000 23:48:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@keyway.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 May 2000 23:48:05 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!news.keyway.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6845 I was wondering what others thought of the strong and weak points of GURPS, Hero and Fuzion. I have all three, but I've only actually played GURPS a few times, Hero never and Fuzion once so I don't feel like I have a good feel for any of them. From my limited experience, I have gotten kind of a feel for each: GURPS: At first I thought that the four stats were enough, but I'm starting to think that they may not be (Silhouette, my favorite systems, has ten stats and a Perk/Flaw system...and it has the mix of stats that I really like, too). The point system in GURPS is not really accurate - really skilled people (like Special Forces operatives) wind up having outrageous point values. The skill system seems a little over-too detailed (I'm more used to Silhouette and Interlock). The combat seems all right, I just have to resist using too many options. Hero: It seems completely, overly complicated. Chargen is really cool (although I have to resist the urge to tweak everything and anything I can), but combat seems a real chore. Way too many rolls and too many Capitalized Abbreviated Terms and values. Fuzion: This I kind of have experience with, because I played Interlock for so many years. In fact, I was really excited about it when it came out. I think the main problem I have with it is that it didn't address some problems I had with Interlock (like the stat/skill range). There also is no clean way of integrating Mekton Zeta with it (or, at least, the solutions I've found/have been told don't sit well with me). Finally, I dislike that I can't get a book that contains only Fuzion core rules. -- Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/ JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/ The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club Metro Survivor's Homepage and more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/ eBay auctions: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/darksinner/ ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? From: David Fair Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 51 Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 01:57:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.128.167 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 958701420 12.78.128.167 (Fri, 19 May 2000 01:57:00 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 01:57:00 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!unlisys!news.snafu.de!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6903 in article 8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net, Wil Hutton at sinner@keyway.net wrote on 5/18/00 7:45 PM: > GURPS: > I don't enjoy GURPS, it is to exacting in it's approach (two different powers for a lightning bolt and a flame blast!?) and does not scale upwards to high power levels (like supers) well. I do buy some of their source books (Place Of Mystery, Etc.) just for the info, not the mechanics. > Hero: It seems completely, overly complicated. Chargen is really cool > (although I have to resist the urge to tweak everything and anything I can), > but combat seems a real chore. Way too many rolls and too many Capitalized > Abbreviated Terms and values. Hero System is, without a doubt, my favorite system to play with. I enjoy all the tweaking and modifying that you do to get a character just right. Combat can be slow, or it can be fast. Being up on the rules and having players ready (not sitting there going "Oh, it's me. I dunno, Who's closest to me again? Okay, well I guess I should use my Martial Strike.") really speeds it up. When I GM, if you take more than about 5 seconds to tell me what you are doing when I get to your DEX, then you are holding your action & I move on (but I only do this with the players who have played at least 4-5 times so that they know their options). I also use an Excel Spreadsheet dice rolling program I wrote up. It rolls to-hits, Killing Attacks, regular attacks, Stun Multipliers, NND's, and counts everything (BODY & Stun) for me. Since I use my laptop at the table for my notes & maps anyway, it makes me much faster, though most of my players still use those little plastic cubes with dots on 'em. > Fuzion: Can't stand it. Played once and it really paled in comparison to just about everything I had ever played before. It had all the problems that GURPS had (new rules in each book), all the problems that HERO had (complex combats) and all the problems that Interlock had. Sold that book, and fast. Thanks, Dave -- David Fair david.a.fair@worldnet.att.net "Macintosh - we might not get everything right, but at least we knew the century was going to end." --Douglas Adams ###### From: "Wil Hutton" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:01:53 -0700 Organization: Keyway Internet Service www.keyway.net Lines: 64 Message-ID: <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: o003-dyna-179.keyway.net X-Trace: madmax.keyway.net 958705846 19296 207.155.49.179 (19 May 2000 03:10:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@keyway.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 May 2000 03:10:46 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!news.keyway.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6838 "David Fair" wrote in message news:B54A1644.5A66%david.a.fair@worldnet.att.net... > I don't enjoy GURPS, it is to exacting in it's approach (two different > powers for a lightning bolt and a flame blast!?) and does not scale upwards > to high power levels (like supers) well. I do buy some of their source books > (Place Of Mystery, Etc.) just for the info, not the mechanics. Well, realistically a lightning bolt and a flame blast would be very different in both the way they behave and the kind of damage they'd do. Of course, I agree that in game terms it hardly matters - and I like the idea of Hero's power system (I'm a pretty big fan of effects-based systems). Scaling upwards isn't too big of a deal, because I tend to go for more lower-key stuff like Tribe 8, Jovian Chronicles, etc. Really I prefer the system to be tailored for the setting if the setting (or genre) is such that requires it. But not all types of games require this sort of thing; for instance, I couldn't see playing Tribe 8 using any other system like Silhouette but Jovian Chronicles could be used with a different universal system no problem. I'm just trying to decide which game I want to invest more money and time in for those campaigns I might want to run that don't need a specially tweaked system. > I also use an Excel Spreadsheet dice rolling program I wrote up. It rolls > to-hits, Killing Attacks, regular attacks, Stun Multipliers, NND's, and > counts everything (BODY & Stun) for me. Since I use my laptop at the table > for my notes & maps anyway, it makes me much faster, though most of my > players still use those little plastic cubes with dots on 'em. Of course, that's what turns me off - there just seems like there would be too much going in a Hero games combat. I did play in one Champions game, and it took us a week to get characters made and the bank robbery that kicked off the campaign took two sessions (with five players). Our GM knew the rules very well, and most everyone was fairly focused. I would feel like I'd have to have a laptop in order to even have the brainpower left over to deal with the plot. Not that I wouldn't use a laptop for any rpg I ran if I had one anyway... So, being a Hero fan what do you think it's weaknesses are? That's usually more telling than hearing about what's good about it from a fan. > Can't stand it. Played once and it really paled in comparison to just about > everything I had ever played before. It had all the problems that GURPS had > (new rules in each book), all the problems that HERO had (complex combats) > and all the problems that Interlock had. Sold that book, and fast. That's the impression that I got...also that it was slapped together. It had potential to be really cool. Then again, after years of playing Cyberpunk, now that I look back on it it's not that great of a system (which is also how come I'd use BESM or Jovian Chronicles for anime instead of Mekton Zeta). Sometimes being the first game in a genre doesn't always mean it's the best. -- Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/ JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/ The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club Metro Survivor's Homepage and more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/ eBay auctions: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/darksinner/ ###### From: "Klaus Æ. Mogensen" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Lines: 51 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:53:14 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.220.51 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 958733661 195.82.220.51 (Fri, 19 May 2000 12:54:21 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:54:21 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!colt.net!newspeer.highwayone.net!newspush.london1.eu.level3.net!level3eu!skynet.be!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6952 "Wil Hutton" wrote: > I was wondering what others thought of the strong and weak points of GURPS, > Hero and Fuzion. I have all three, but I've only actually played GURPS a > few times, Hero never and Fuzion once so I don't feel like I have a good > feel for any of them. From my limited experience, I have gotten kind of a > feel for each: > > GURPS: I came to GURPS from Hero and found some things needlessly complex (e.g., rules for firearms) and others much too simple (only two skill-related stats), at least compared to the overall complexity. I also found that stats were way more important than skills, and the costs of some not-all-that-useful things to be too high. > Hero: It seems completely, overly complicated. It's not simple, that I agree, but once you get used to it, it offers the greatest flexibility in character design of any game. And while combat can be slow, IMO it is partly because it offers more choices than other games. But it could be streamlined a lot. > Fuzion: There's many things I like about Fuzion: The mix-and-match stat/skill system, the rules for Complications (best I've seen), and the somewhat simplified Hero mechanics. There are some places, though, where the Hero and Interlock systems haven't meshed properly. > Finally, I dislike that I can't get a book that contains > only Fuzion core rules. But you can, on www.thefuze.com, where you can download a PDF-file with version 5.02 of the rules (which seems to be the final version, since it hasn't been changed in two years). -- Klaus Æ. Mogensen http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius Exaggeration facilitates comprehension Understatement facilitates credibility ###### From: amerlock@earth.execpc.com (Anthony Merlock) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 19 May 2000 09:43:33 -0500 Organization: Exec-PC Internet - Milwaukee, WI References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 #4 (NOV) Lines: 44 Message-ID: <39255316$0$63128@news.execpc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ab2d7343.news.execpc.com X-Trace: 0RW8S?BXNaRI5[332>a9Y[bfNiaEHUgJWRYcgIRLSUE]9^HTKTCVIA7Zho9IF\2k7\R5aeREoGb:dP=RQSiT>;`d_ X-Complaints-To: abuse@execpc.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newspump.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!posts0.nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!posts.news.execpc.com!reader2-nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6944 "Wil Hutton" writes: >I was wondering what others thought of the strong and weak points of GURPS, >Hero and Fuzion. I have all three, but I've only actually played GURPS a >few times, Hero never and Fuzion once so I don't feel like I have a good >feel for any of them. From my limited experience, I have gotten kind of a >feel for each: My first question would be... Why? Silhouette is a perfectly good generic system - yes, it only has three published "gameworlds", but you should be able to import things from GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion fairly easily. But, anyway, here's my opinions: GURPS: Decent, if overly complex system. Became a heck of a lot more playable when I re-wrote the combat system to be more abstract (but still allowing tactical movement on a hex grid). I haven't played a non-modern-day GURPS campaign, so I'm not sure how it works for other genre. The sourcebooks rock, and can be used with Silouette, Fuzion, or Hero with little work. Hero: Played Champions once. Never went back. Don't remember much about it, so I won't comment more. Fuzion: I like some of it (especially the 5.0.2 version available at theFuze.com), but whenever I tried to work with it, I ended up changing the system dramatically (not something I really wanted to spend the time doing). Maybe I'm just *too* much of a tinkerer..... The various plug-ins available (especially the Atomic plug-ins) help the game quite a bit. You may also want to check out CORPS ( http://www.btrc.net ), or Simply Roleplaying! ( http://www.microtactix.com ). CORPS is a pretty good generic game system (never played it, but have heard good things about it, and it's available as a PDF file for a reasonable price). Simply Roleplaying! is another generic system which is similar to The Fantasy Trip (which was Steve Jackson's first RPG, and the basis for GURPS). It has its quirks, but I like it. There's not much support for it (yet), but it's getting there... (yeah, I know... you asked for advice on three games, and I threw two more into the mix. Feel free to ignore them, if you want). Tony Merlock ###### From: "Wil Hutton" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 07:59:07 -0700 Organization: Keyway Internet Service www.keyway.net Lines: 41 Message-ID: <8g3kqi$mpe$1@madmax.keyway.net> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: o003-dyna-170.keyway.net X-Trace: madmax.keyway.net 958748306 23342 207.155.49.170 (19 May 2000 14:58:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@keyway.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 May 2000 14:58:26 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!216.226.222.61.MISMATCH!newsxfer.interpacket.net!news.interpacket.net!news.keyway.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6848 "Klaus Æ. Mogensen" wrote in message news:x39V4.154$vo3.2592@news.get2net.dk... > I came to GURPS from Hero and found some things needlessly > complex (e.g., rules for firearms) and others much too simple > (only two skill-related stats), at least compared to the overall > complexity. I also found that stats were way more important than > skills, and the costs of some not-all-that-useful things to be > too high. I agree - especially about the firearms and the two skill-related stats. To be fair, firearms can be a pain in a lot of games which were designed to handle melee combat. Even my favorites games have problems with firearms just doing too much damage. > It's not simple, that I agree, but once you get used to it, it > offers the greatest flexibility in character design of any game. > And while combat can be slow, IMO it is partly because it offers > more choices than other games. But it could be streamlined a lot. A streamlined Hero might be worth looking at. Complexity during character creation is not a problem - but during combat, I don't like to feel like having a computer or Palm Pilot to back me up is necessary. I used to run CP2020 and Mekton Zeta without hardly looking at the books during combat (or any other time), and I'm that way with Tribe 8 as well. > But you can, on www.thefuze.com, where you can download a > PDF-file with version 5.02 of the rules (which seems to be the > final version, since it hasn't been changed in two years). That's what I meant...I can't get an actual bound book. I have to rely on the printed file in a binder. -- Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/ JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/ The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club Metro Survivor's Homepage and more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/ eBay auctions: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/darksinner/ ###### From: Blackberry Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 19 May 2000 10:37:42 -0700 Organization: Europa.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8g3u56$2ed5@edrn.newsguy.com> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g3kqi$mpe$1@madmax.keyway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-201.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!edrn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6950 In article <8g3kqi$mpe$1@madmax.keyway.net>, "Wil says... > >[...] >A streamlined Hero might be worth looking at. Complexity during character >creation is not a problem - but during combat, I don't like to feel like >having a computer or Palm Pilot to back me up is necessary. I used to run >CP2020 and Mekton Zeta without hardly looking at the books during combat (or >any other time), and I'm that way with Tribe 8 as well. >[...] What would you possibly need computing power for in Hero combat? To-hit determination is simple subtraction of numbers under 10 (usually, sometimes up to 20). Damage is a roll of some dice and, granted, two different ways to count them, but the counting of BODY damage on a standard attack is frightfully easy once you know how. (one easy method is to pair up 6s and 1s, until you have only extra 6s or extra 1s, then take the number of dice you rolled and add the extra 6s or subtract the extra 1s.) -------------------- "It's enough to make you wonder sometimes if you're on the right planet." -- Frankie Goes to Hollywood Brian -- lepus@europa.com -- http://www.europa.com/~lepus ###### From: Blackberry Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 19 May 2000 10:56:45 -0700 Organization: Europa.com Lines: 40 Message-ID: <8g3v8t$2g95@edrn.newsguy.com> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-306.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!207.211.168.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!edrn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6951 In article <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net>, "Wil says... > >[...] >Of course, that's what turns me off - there just seems like there would be >too much going in a Hero games combat. I did play in one Champions game, >and it took us a week to get characters made and the bank robbery that >kicked off the campaign took two sessions (with five players). Our GM knew >the rules very well, and most everyone was fairly focused. I would feel >like I'd have to have a laptop in order to even have the brainpower left >over to deal with the plot. Not that I wouldn't use a laptop for any rpg I >ran if I had one anyway... I must be weird :) I never had any problems playing HERO. As a GM, sure, it helped to have some better way to keep track of current levels, but scratch paper still did fine for me. As a player, you just have to keep track of your Endurance (same as tracking fatigue in most systems), Stun (non-lethal hit points; most systems have hit points), and Body (lethal hit points; most systems have hit points). To hit chance is 11 plus your OCV minus their DCV. If that formula is too hard, chances are pretty good that you couldn't handle the formulas for character generation either. :) >So, being a Hero fan what do you think it's weaknesses are? That's usually >more telling than hearing about what's good about it from a fan. >[...] I'm a HERO fan, currently trying out GURPS. I think HERO's weakest point is that it doesn't scale to lower levels well at all. If you're not a super-, then you're pretty much exactly the same as everyone else. Sure, your numbers might be different, but there's no point. 13 STR rounds up to 15 for most purposes, but there's no game difference between having a 10 STR, 11 STR, and 12 STR -- it affects your figured characteristics (specifically STUN), but the extra STR costs you more than you get back in STUN. The other thing is that there's too little granularity for lower levels -- 15 STR is twice as strong as 10 STR, but -40 is human minimum (infant) STR. -------------------- "It's enough to make you wonder sometimes if you're on the right planet." -- Frankie Goes to Hollywood Brian -- lepus@europa.com -- http://www.europa.com/~lepus ###### X-Originating-Host: 165.122.144.211 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Lines: 29 From: night_flyer@juno.com Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <34437638.6898c374@usw-ex0104-087.remarq.com> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g3kqi$mpe$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g3u56$2ed5@edrn.newsguy.com> Bytes: 1017 X-Wren-Trace: eAQhCQgRVhxXShkLCVA6CxoOERMhClEcDkYICABQTBJeTBVXWApAXlxLUlBb Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:42:34 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.87 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 958762440 10.0.2.87 (Fri, 19 May 2000 11:54:00 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:54:00 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6865 In article <8g3u56$2ed5@edrn.newsguy.com>, Blackberry wrote: >In article <8g3kqi$mpe$1@madmax.keyway.net>, "Wil says... >> >>[...] >>A streamlined Hero might be worth looking at. Complexity during character >>creation is not a problem - but during combat, I don't like to feel like >>having a computer or Palm Pilot to back me up is necessary. I used to run >>CP2020 and Mekton Zeta without hardly looking at the books during combat (or >>any other time), and I'm that way with Tribe 8 as well. >>[...] > >What would you possibly need computing power for in Hero combat? I would hope he is refering to the combat order, which if placed in a computer grid, would be a lot simpler to keep track of (check out the javascript on I made, its a little rough, but it gets the job done :) http://www.paper-dragon.com/hero * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 19 May 2000 19:24:28 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 76 Message-ID: <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.ps.uci.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!134.139.10.31!csulb.edu!news.service.uci.edu!cascade.ps.uci.edu!jhkim Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6989 This is in reply to Wil Hutton regarding his question about the perennial GURPS-vs-HERO comparison along with Fuzion. He is pretty familiar with GURPS so I will skimp on that. Wil Hutton wrote: >GURPS: At first I thought that the four stats were enough, but I'm >starting to think that they may not be [...] really skilled people >(like Special Forces operatives) wind up having outrageous point >values. The skill system seems a little over-too detailed (I'm more >used to Silhouette and Interlock). The combat seems all right, I >just have to resist using too many options. For what it's worth, I agree with all these points. (Although I think the attribute-dominance problem can be cured without going to more stats.) Combat works fairly well in normal cases but has a number of cases where it breaks down. -*-*-*- > >Hero: It seems completely, overly complicated. Chargen is really cool >(although I have to resist the urge to tweak everything and anything >I can), but combat seems a real chore. Way too many rolls and too >many Capitalized Abbreviated Terms and values. Well, the major slowness shows up in superheroic combat when you have to roll 15 dice and add them up two different ways and then deal with knockback. For "heroic" games, combat is somewhat easier (no knockback, 2-5d). Still, it is slower than GURPS because it always requires a comparison roll for to-hit, whereas GURPS you roll hit and defense separately. Also you have two types of damage: STUN and BODY, but I think this is worth it. I think the underlying model in HERO combat is good, but the rules are written without any regard for ease of comprehension or ease of use. While I like the system a lot, I found that trying to explain it was a real pain -- and trying to use the rulebook did more harm than good. Conclusion: learning the system is difficult. I would not recommend it for players who are not hardened to learning semi-complex systems. However, once learned it plays pretty well. HERO character creation is very flexible and even simple at the "heroic" level (i.e. no superpowers or the equivalent). The powers system is great, but is much more difficult to learn than combat. Further, creating good powers is an art as much as a science. -*-*-*- > >Fuzion: This I kind of have experience with, because I played Interlock >for so many years. In fact, I was really excited about it when it came >out. I think the main problem I have with it is that it didn't address >some problems I had with Interlock (like the stat/skill range). There >also is no clean way of integrating Mekton Zeta with it (or, at least, >the solutions I've found/have been told don't sit well with me). Finally, >I dislike that I can't get a book that contains only Fuzion core rules. I base my opinion mainly on the _Champions: TNM_ rules as they appeared. Frankly, while the *concept* of simplifying HERO is a fine one, I thought the execution was abyssmal. I can only point to examples of the myriad flaws: i.e. In HERO a thrown object does your Strength damage which is nice and simple. In TNM, there is a table lookup where you rate object weight vs how fast you throw it -- and the damage varies up and down as the object weight gets heavier. To be fair, I have heard that some later versions of Fuzion have cleaned this up to some degree. However, dealing with TNM has certainly turned me off from looking further. -- John H. Kim | Whatever else is true you jhkim@fnal.gov | Trust your little finger www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can UC Irvine, Cal, USA | Save the world. - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins" ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 20:23:56 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8g47ss$98_004@enews.newsguy.com> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g3v8t$2g95@edrn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-137.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6976 In article <8g3v8t$2g95@edrn.newsguy.com>, Blackberry wrote: >I must be weird :) I never had any problems playing HERO. Many people seem confused by the notion that different people find the same task easy, or hard, or interesting, or uninteresting, or whatever. If it works for you, it's a success. :) -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### From: "Wil Hutton" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:31:49 -0700 Organization: Keyway Internet Service www.keyway.net Lines: 55 Message-ID: <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: o003-dyna-188.keyway.net X-Trace: madmax.keyway.net 958779074 25934 207.155.49.188 (19 May 2000 23:31:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@keyway.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 May 2000 23:31:14 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!feeder.via.net!news.he.net!news.keyway.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6974 > I think the underlying model in HERO combat is good, but > the rules are written without any regard for ease of comprehension > or ease of use. While I like the system a lot, I found that trying > to explain it was a real pain -- and trying to use the rulebook did > more harm than good. Conclusion: learning the system is difficult. > I would not recommend it for players who are not hardened to learning > semi-complex systems. However, once learned it plays pretty well. To mimic a similar question I posted to a different group, are there any combinations of Hero rules (regular, optional or house) that make it smoother/faster to play? Also, how does Fantasy Hero work vs. a GURPS Fantasy game? I've always liked the presentation in Fantasy Hero and the ability to pretty much create all of the frameworks for different kinds of magic and powers to suit appeals to me. > HERO character creation is very flexible and even simple at > the "heroic" level (i.e. no superpowers or the equivalent). The > powers system is great, but is much more difficult to learn than > combat. Further, creating good powers is an art as much as a > science. Which, being an effects kind of guy, I like. I love crafting designs in Silhouette's Vehicle Construction system or even Mekton Zeta that do their job well but are elegant, as opposed to just doing their job. One of the things I dislike about GURPS is that there's no meta-system for creating Advantages/Disadvantages/etc - even though in GURPS Compendium I they introduced a system for modifying the costs, it's the base cost a lot of times that I have problems with. I honestly have too little experience with Hero to know if their base costs are messed up. GURPS also makes a lot of assumptions regarding the way that technology advances, or magic works, etc. that makes it extremely difficult to modify. If I have to design a magic system completely from scratch and integrate it into GURPS, I might as well create it and integrate it into Silhouette. At least with Hero I can use their framework to mimic how I want the magic to work. > To be fair, I have heard that some later versions of > Fuzion have cleaned this up to some degree. However, dealing > with TNM has certainly turned me off from looking further. Fuzion has other problems as well, but I think a lot of it comes across as blandness. A lot of that is carried over from Interlock, which has fairly bland characters and fairly bland combats. A lot more work has to be done to individualize each Fuzion game than other games. -- Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/ JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/ The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club Metro Survivor's Homepage and more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/ eBay auctions: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/darksinner/ "John Kim" wrote in message news:8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu... ###### From: "Sidhain" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Lines: 56 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:06:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.27.217.84 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 958781206 63.27.217.84 (Fri, 19 May 2000 17:06:46 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:06:46 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6969 I missed the original Post so hee is a mini assessment. GURPS- Simple system relativey flat power curvem it's assumptions on how magic and technology work are decent for "Generic" but pretty difficult to digest in some of the more niche settings (Gundam for exampel Mech's require filibustering the Gurps Mecha rules) Best for Historical Setting, Or Fantasy-Historical sttings, Espionage and low powered modern day Hero System--Everything in one book all the rules fo vehicles, superheroes, etc all fall into the same book, easy of use is--not very takes a lot of work to construct the same generic levels of Gurps above, but when creating niche settings it requires less work to to fit. Best for Fantasy Games with broad or multiple magics, Supers 9(over Gurps that is) Fuzion--Free kind of more gneric than Gurps because it uses scaleable power levels on each "sub" area--froma ttributes, to powers to vehicles. This males it more ideal for Niche games (Superpowered Mecha pilots fighting Demons) because it can be scaled more easily without breaking down (Hero and Gurps throws more points at something, Fuzion alters the level something may be worth it creates a different dynamic. Good for Fantasy (High Fantasy, Mecha, and such Games, not as good for Espionage as either Hero or Gurps) BESM-Big Eyes Small Mouth, probably the simplest, but also the one with less deviation over all of the games it's meant to do one thing well---Anime/Manga, but considering the broad Genres that covers it does it well--with all three books BESM, Cool Starships Big Robots, and Hot Rods and Gun Bunnies, one can do anything GURP can do, almost everything HERO and Fuzion can do, but Superheroes are a little out o it's realm--so far---Hey Guys can I do the Supers suplement? Please? FUDGE: well hmmm take the best and worse of all the above and put it into a document that looks too much liek a web page and then have to do 90% of the prep dtime deciding on what to adjust to make it work--it works but always seems to me as Kludgy..... Gurps Minimum Investment: Around 50.00 to do thing well Hero: $25-30 if you can get the Hero System Rulesbook tor the Champions BBB until 5th Ed hits the stores (hurry up!) Fuzion: 10. or less...Lots of HIGH quality free supplements available--Mark Chase has put together fantastic ones that makes me want to Run Fuzion everything. FUDGE: Last I checked Free like Fuzion but really ahving more "base" rules together BESM: About the same as Gurps each small booklet is cheap about12-15 dollars but you need all three 9Gurps needs Two Books really) Disadvantages--All of these systems lack in print bestiaries, or Critter books. ###### From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 20 May 2000 00:37:40 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 55 Message-ID: <8g4mok$ivs$1@news.service.uci.edu> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g3v8t$2g95@edrn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.ps.uci.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!news.service.uci.edu!cascade.ps.uci.edu!jhkim Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6999 Blackberry wrote: >I'm a HERO fan, currently trying out GURPS. I think HERO's weakest point >is that it doesn't scale to lower levels well at all. If you're not a >super-, then you're pretty much exactly the same as everyone else. Sure, >your numbers might be different, but there's no point. 13 STR rounds up >to 15 for most purposes, but there's no game difference between having >a 10 STR, 11 STR, and 12 STR -- Hm. STR 10 in HERO has 2d6 strike damage while STR 11 has 2d6+1. Just +1 might be a small difference in a superhero game, but when average is only 7 STUN then +1 makes a difference. On the other hand, you are right that there is no difference between STR 11 and STR 12. This is esthetically unpleasing, but mechanically I think normal human range is differentiated about as well as most games. In GURPS, human attributes ostensibly go from 1 to 20, but any GURPS player can tell you that attributes of 16+ produce pretty outrageous effects (i.e. speak languages better than natives overnight, or take a bazooka shell to the torso and live). This seems corresponds with HERO stats of maybe 20-25. In HERO, 20 is only the "normal" maxima which can be exceeded by exceptional individuals. There are seven steps in Strength damage in HERO between STR 10 and STR 20: 2d, 2d+1, 2.5d, 3d, 3d+1, 2.5d, 4d. In GURPS, there are seven steps from ST10 to ST16 (which I say is comparable): Thrust: 1d-2, 1d-1, 1d-1, 1d , 1d , 1d+1, 1d+1 Swing: 1d , 1d+1, 1d+2, 2d-1, 2d , 2d+1, 2d+2 Overall, I would say that GURPS has a greater distinction overall between its steps, percentage-wise. However, the difference is just not very big. -*-*-*- Personally, my primary use for HERO has been with normal (albeit extraordinary) humans: modern-day magic, martial arts genre, etc. I think that it scales quite well to these ranges. In comparison to GURPS, HERO rates skill as much more important than attribute - which I consider a good thing. For example, a jack-of-all-trades in GURPS might spend 60 points for IQ 15 and then spend maybe 10 points to get twenty 1/2-point mental skills, each at (13-) for average. The corresponding character in HERO might spend 10 points to get INT 20, but then pays 60 points to get twenty 3-point skills at (13-). [Just a rough example] -- John H. Kim | Whatever else is true you jhkim@fnal.gov | Trust your little finger www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can UC Irvine, Cal, USA | Save the world. - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins" ###### From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 20 May 2000 01:34:28 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 59 Message-ID: <8g4q34$klv$1@news.service.uci.edu> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.ps.uci.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!CensurBot.NetScum.Dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!enews.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.service.uci.edu!cascade.ps.uci.edu!jhkim Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6991 Wil Hutton wrote: > John Kim wrote: >> I think the underlying model in HERO combat is good, but the rules >> are written without any regard for ease of comprehension or ease >> of use. > >To mimic a similar question I posted to a different group, are there >any combinations of Hero rules (regular, optional or house) that make >it smoother/faster to play? Also, how does Fantasy Hero work vs. a >GURPS Fantasy game? I've always liked the presentation in Fantasy >Hero and the ability to pretty much create all of the frameworks for >different kinds of magic and powers to suit appeals to me. Options for fast HERO play in fantasy or other heroic genre: 1) I have all PC's and combat opponents at SPD 4. This eliminates having to use the SPD chart. 2) I recommend ignoring Endurance in nearly all cases. Tracking blow-by-blow END loss is just a waste of time. 3) An obvious but sometimes missed one is for players to record 11+OCV for their maneuvers. Then when it is their turn, they roll 3d6 and subtract from that number to get the DCV they hit. As for _Fantasy HERO_ versus _GURPS Fantasy_, I think one needs to consider both "default" and "personalized" games. I don't particularly like the background or magic in either of the supplements, which were made to be generic fantasy. The pre-made HERO spell colleges are dull, and the GURPS magic is unbalanced and excessively scientific. For the appropriateness of system: Many of the HERO rules are a bit overcomplex for fantasy (cf. my options advice above). GURPS was designed with fantasy in mind, but despite this I have seen a lot of GURPS GM's struggle with balance problems. Notably: an armored tank PC which totally dominates combat and an ultra-generalist mage who dominates non-combat problems. As a resource for running your own personalized fantasy game, I think _Fantasy HERO_ easily beats _GURPS Fantasy_ for value. The HERO core book plus the one fantasy supplement lets you build your own races and has a long chapter on personalizing your magic system. GURPS has one book which is world background (_GURPS Fantasy_), another book on designing races (_GURPS Fantasy Folk_), and another book on magic (_GURPS Magic_) which includes variant magic system but not much on tailoring your own magic. I have many warnings about the complexity of the HERO power system, but given your statements about Mekton Zeta's construction and fondness for meta-systems, it might be just the thing for you. -- John H. Kim | Whatever else is true you jhkim@fnal.gov | Trust your little finger www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can UC Irvine, Cal, USA | Save the world. - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins" ###### From: erolb1@aol.com (Erol K. Bayburt) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Lines: 42 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 20 May 2000 02:50:29 GMT References: <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000519225029.19779.00000301@ng-cl1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6984 "Wil Hutton" wrote: >To mimic a similar question I posted to a different group, are there any >combinations of Hero rules (regular, optional or house) that make it >smoother/faster to play? Let me put in a shameless plug for my "Percentile HERO" rules that my friend Vox Ludator webbed for me at http://www.io.com/~angilas/madlab/skillsys.html It gets rid of the "breakpoints" in characteristics for skill and to-hit rolls (which especially helps in "heroic" scale games), and I think it makes combat run a bit more smoothly, if I do say so myself. You don't have to do a subtraction each time you attack, and the roll to hit distinguishes between missing because your attack was too clumsy to hit anything and missing because your target's defensive skills were just too good for the attack you made. >Also, how does Fantasy Hero work vs. a GURPS >Fantasy game? I've always liked the presentation in Fantasy Hero and the >ability to pretty much create all of the frameworks for different kinds of >magic and powers to suit appeals to me. IMO GURPS Fantasy (and GURPS in general) is a lot "grottier" than HERO. You *can* make GURPS more cinematic, but the system (and the Secret Masters) will fight you on this. If you *like* nasty low fantasy, with player-characters forced to root around in the lovely filth, then GURPS has the advantage here. Otherwise HERO works better. HERO is more flexible in terms of magic & powers unless you're the sort who tends to ignore the rules in actual play as "just getting in the way." If you are the ignore-the-rules sort, then neither system is really ideal, but GURPS has the edge. If you're the sort for whom rules are important and who likes rules that positively support your vision, then HERO is more supportive and generally easier to tinker with to get things "just right." The drawback is that you do have to do some tinkering - HERO doesn't have nearly as much as GURPS in the way of an "out of the box" fantasy setup. Erol K. Bayburt ErolB1@aol.com (mail drop) ErolB@ix.netcom.com (surfboard) ###### From: erolb1@aol.com (Erol K. Bayburt) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 20 May 2000 03:14:43 GMT References: <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000519231443.19779.00000309@ng-cl1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6986 "Wil Hutton" wrote: >So, being a Hero fan what do you think it's weaknesses are? That's usually >more telling than hearing about what's good about it from a fan. 1. It suffers from the (false) reputation of being "only for playing superheroes." 2. It presents new players with most of its complexity up front, in character creation. 3. The complexity of character creation makes it harder for GMs to create lots of NPC characters for their games. 4. It's a little coarse-grained at lower power levels. (But see http://www.io.com/~angilas/madlab/skillsys.html for my solution to this.) 5. In play, and especially in combat, each element is just a little more complex than the corresponding elements in most other rpgs: Two kinds of 'hit points' plus Endurance, instead of just one kind of hit point plus maybe fatigue; two kinds of damage for each damage roll; different kinds of defenses subtracting from the different kinds of damage; an extra math operation in each roll to hit (with this operation being a subtraction, which is a bit harder than addition or comparison). These little bits of extra complexity can add up to a big bogging down of the game. 6. "Some assembly required" The GM does have to tinker in setting up his campaign. (OTOH it does have good tinkering tools, e.g. the "Campaign Ground Rules Sheet") It's not as bad as FUDGE in this, but it is worse than GURPS in terms of playability "straight out of the box." Erol K. Bayburt ErolB1@aol.com (mail drop) ErolB@ix.netcom.com (surfboard) ###### From: "Wil Hutton" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:02:05 -0700 Organization: Keyway Internet Service www.keyway.net Lines: 95 Message-ID: <8g52mr$qqq$1@madmax.keyway.net> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: o003-dyna-160.keyway.net X-Trace: madmax.keyway.net 958795291 27482 207.155.49.160 (20 May 2000 04:01:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@keyway.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 2000 04:01:31 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newspeer.ebone.net!amsnews01.chello.com!ams-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!news.keyway.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6977 Thanks...but most of it I already know ^_^ I'm looking for more detailed evaluations of each that have to do with the games in *play* because I own and have read all of them. Guess I should feel lucky I have the Hero Bestiary, as well as GURPS Bestiary and Fantasy Bestiary. -- Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/ JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/ The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club Metro Survivor's Homepage and more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/ eBay auctions: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/darksinner/ "Sidhain" wrote in message news:qGkV4.5520$S31.144778@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > I missed the original Post so hee is a mini assessment. > > > GURPS- Simple system relativey flat power curvem it's assumptions on how magic and technology > work are decent for "Generic" but pretty difficult to digest in some of the more niche settings > (Gundam for exampel Mech's require filibustering the Gurps Mecha rules) > Best for Historical Setting, Or Fantasy-Historical sttings, Espionage and low powered modern > day > > Hero System--Everything in one book all the rules fo vehicles, superheroes, etc all fall into > the same book, easy of use is--not very takes a lot of work to construct the same generic > levels of Gurps above, but when creating niche settings it requires less work to to fit. Best > for Fantasy Games with broad or multiple magics, Supers 9(over Gurps that is) > > > Fuzion--Free kind of more gneric than Gurps because it uses scaleable power levels on each > "sub" area--froma ttributes, to powers to vehicles. This males it more ideal for Niche games > (Superpowered Mecha pilots fighting Demons) because it can be scaled more easily without > breaking down (Hero and Gurps throws more points at something, Fuzion alters the level > something may be worth it creates a different dynamic. Good for Fantasy (High Fantasy, Mecha, > and such Games, not as good for Espionage as either Hero or Gurps) > > > BESM-Big Eyes Small Mouth, probably the simplest, but also the one with less deviation over all > of the games it's meant to do one thing well---Anime/Manga, but considering the broad Genres > that covers it does it well--with all three books BESM, Cool Starships Big Robots, and Hot Rods > and Gun Bunnies, one can do anything GURP can do, almost everything HERO and Fuzion can do, but > Superheroes are a little out o it's realm--so far---Hey Guys can I do the Supers suplement? > Please? > FUDGE: well hmmm take the best and worse of all the above and put it into a document that looks > too much liek a web page and then have to do 90% of the prep dtime deciding on what to adjust > to make it work--it works but always seems to me as Kludgy..... > > > Gurps Minimum Investment: Around 50.00 to do thing well > > Hero: $25-30 if you can get the Hero System Rulesbook tor the Champions BBB until 5th Ed hits > the stores (hurry up!) > > Fuzion: 10. or less...Lots of HIGH quality free supplements available--Mark Chase has put > together fantastic ones that makes me want to Run Fuzion everything. > > > FUDGE: Last I checked Free like Fuzion but really ahving more "base" rules together > > BESM: About the same as Gurps each small booklet is cheap about12-15 dollars but you need all > three 9Gurps needs Two Books really) > > > Disadvantages--All of these systems lack in print bestiaries, or Critter books. > > > > > > ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? From: David Fair Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 04:11:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.117.84 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 958795908 12.78.117.84 (Sat, 20 May 2000 04:11:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 04:11:48 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7015 in article 8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net, Wil Hutton at sinner@keyway.net wrote on 5/18/00 11:01 PM: > So, being a Hero fan what do you think it's weaknesses are? That's usually > more telling than hearing about what's good about it from a fan. It scares off new players easily, even if they are veteran roleplayers. It tends to encourage min-maxing and munchkanism (this happens in most point-based systems). It is slower than other RPG's, even when it is fast. But... It does any genre, any character, any effect, and it does them well*. It is my belief that if the world had to choose only one RPG, we would be least hurt by selecting Hero. * Okay, it doesn't do oil slicks or icy patches well. That's about it. Thanks, Dave -- David Fair david.a.fair@worldnet.att.net Q: How many Microsoft programmers does it take to write really good software? A: More. ###### From: "Wil Hutton" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:17:11 -0700 Organization: Keyway Internet Service www.keyway.net Lines: 77 Message-ID: <8g53sk$qt2$1@madmax.keyway.net> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g4q34$klv$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: o003-dyna-160.keyway.net X-Trace: madmax.keyway.net 958796500 27554 207.155.49.160 (20 May 2000 04:21:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@keyway.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 2000 04:21:40 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.he.net!news.keyway.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6973 "John Kim" wrote in message news:8g4q34$klv$1@news.service.uci.edu... > Options for fast HERO play in fantasy or other heroic genre: > 1) I have all PC's and combat opponents at SPD 4. This eliminates > having to use the SPD chart. > 2) I recommend ignoring Endurance in nearly all cases. Tracking > blow-by-blow END loss is just a waste of time. > 3) An obvious but sometimes missed one is for players to record > 11+OCV for their maneuvers. Then when it is their turn, they > roll 3d6 and subtract from that number to get the DCV they hit. Thank you! This is exactly what I wanted to hear, though I didn't know it. Those are going into my file... > As for _Fantasy HERO_ versus _GURPS Fantasy_, I think > one needs to consider both "default" and "personalized" games. > I don't particularly like the background or magic in either of the > supplements, which were made to be generic fantasy. The pre-made > HERO spell colleges are dull, and the GURPS magic is unbalanced > and excessively scientific. I wasn't planning on using the Hero spell colleges (just the spells as ideas of what a similar spell under whatever system I devise would be like). I totally agree about GURPS Magic, and it's the one turn-off to me. If very rigorous and scientific magic is part of the setting that's fine with me, but as a generic magic system I think it's too much. > For the appropriateness of system: Many of the HERO rules > are a bit overcomplex for fantasy (cf. my options advice above). > GURPS was designed with fantasy in mind, but despite this I have > seen a lot of GURPS GM's struggle with balance problems. Notably: > an armored tank PC which totally dominates combat and an > ultra-generalist mage who dominates non-combat problems. I think that the balance problems appear in a lot of games that are point-based. The reason has to do with the "art" factor of designing characters in these systems. One player may have the art of designing a balanced character that is capable of contributing to the group in a couple ways, while another may develop the art of designing a munchkin of any type. Even in games like Tribe 8 I've seen the "spiritual" character that has somehow managed to have Melee 4/+1 and do x22 damage with a sword (which is a lot...a Flesh Wound from this guy would cripple normal people, and a good solid hit would kill in one blow). > As a resource for running your own personalized fantasy > game, I think _Fantasy HERO_ easily beats _GURPS Fantasy_ for > value. The HERO core book plus the one fantasy supplement lets you > build your own races and has a long chapter on personalizing > your magic system. GURPS has one book which is world background > (_GURPS Fantasy_), another book on designing races (_GURPS > Fantasy Folk_), and another book on magic (_GURPS Magic_) which > includes variant magic system but not much on tailoring your > own magic. Yep...I love Fantasy Hero. I have both Fantasy Hero Companions. You also can't forget the bestiaries for both games - of course, for GURPS I have two Bestiaries, as well as Grimoire and Magic Items I and II. Surprising all the stuff I have for games I don't play, huh? > I have many warnings about the complexity of the HERO > power system, but given your statements about Mekton Zeta's > construction and fondness for meta-systems, it might be just > the thing for you. Oh, I've loved playing with the Hero character creation. It's just that I have no play experience to temper it with. All of this discussion is making me lean more towards Hero (and may help a related decision as to which books I hawk on eBay next ^_^) -- Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/ JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/ The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club Metro Survivor's Homepage and more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/ eBay auctions: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/darksinner/ ###### From: "Geoff Watson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 20:13:08 +1000 Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.101.12.53 Message-ID: <392664b5@pink.one.net.au> X-Trace: 20 May 2000 20:11:01 +1000, 203.101.12.53 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!newsfeed.nyc.globix.net!uunet!nyc.uu.net!lax.uu.net!pink.one.net.au!203.101.12.53 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6955 Sidhain wrote in message news:qGkV4.5520$S31.144778@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > I missed the original Post so hee is a mini assessment. > > > BESM-Big Eyes Small Mouth, probably the simplest, but also the one with less deviation over all > of the games it's meant to do one thing well---Anime/Manga, but considering the broad Genres > that covers it does it well--with all three books BESM, Cool Starships Big Robots, and Hot Rods > and Gun Bunnies, one can do anything GURP can do, almost everything HERO and Fuzion can do, but > Superheroes are a little out o it's realm--so far---Hey Guys can I do the Supers suplement? > Please You could use the Senshi powers from Sailor Moon or the Demon powers from Demon City Shinjuku. (prefer latter as the powers are more detailed and varied.) Geoff. ###### From: "Klaus Æ. Mogensen" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Lines: 63 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <9CuV4.151$iV.2547@news.get2net.dk> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:06:02 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.47.143.229 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 958821893 195.47.143.229 (Sat, 20 May 2000 13:24:53 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:24:53 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6972 "Wil Hutton" wrote: > > To mimic a similar question I posted to a different group, are there any > combinations of Hero rules (regular, optional or house) that make it > smoother/faster to play? Also, how does Fantasy Hero work vs. a GURPS > Fantasy game? I've always liked the presentation in Fantasy Hero and the > ability to pretty much create all of the frameworks for different kinds of > magic and powers to suit appeals to me. I think Hero works very well for fantasy. The fact that stats are grainy only makes skill that more important, though I guess you could change the skill base to (8 + stat/3), so skills follow the same progression as combat value. The Hero combat rules are very tweakable wrt cmplexity and realism. If you include all the optional rules about hit location, bleeding, and disabling, combat can become pretty damn gritty. Even if you don't, the various maneuvers make combat interesting. I recommend using the Hit Location chart and sectioned defenses. If the chart is printed on the character sheet (and it is on some of them), it doesn't add all that much complexity, and it equalizes Normal and Killing attacks a bit (both get stun multipliers based on location). Fantasy Hero can favor warriors, since magic can be very expensive, and warriors just can pick up sword and armor w/o having to pay character points for them. There are a few ways to make magic cheaper, though. One is to make mages buy huge END Reserves and buy all spells at x3 END (-1). Another, more radical, way is to say that spells are a part of the environment and (like swords and armor) doesn't have to be bought by characters. Characters with a Magery talent (10/20/30 points) can tap into these by using a Magic skill and buying Familiarity in each spell, similar to weapon and transport familiarities. The Magic roll gets a penalty equal to Active Points/10, and the character can't buy familiarity in spells with Active Point cost greater than 1.5x what they invested in Magery. Spells should be designed with a total limitation of -1 (including Requires Skill Roll). Note that the above is almost exactly like buying a Multipower with a -1/2 limitation "Variable -1 Limitation": The base cost is two-thirds the Active Cost of the slots, and each slot has an extra cost of 1 (= ultra slot of 30 Active with a -1 limitation). The main difference is that several spells can be active at the same time, making it more akin to an Elemental Control, but I consider this fair compensation for the warriors' ability to get weapons and armor at no (character point) cost. -- Klaus Æ. Mogensen http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius Exaggeration facilitates comprehension Understatement facilitates credibility ###### From: james_n@morse.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 20 May 2000 14:32:42 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8g67ma$d43$1@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> References: <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net> <20000519231443.19779.00000309@ng-cl1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: morse.uwaterloo.ca X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!torn!watserv3.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6994 In article <20000519231443.19779.00000309@ng-cl1.aol.com>, Erol K. Bayburt wrote: > "Wil Hutton" wrote: > >>So, being a Hero fan what do you think it's weaknesses are? That's usually >>more telling than hearing about what's good about it from a fan. > >1. It suffers from the (false) reputation of being "only for playing >superheroes." > >2. It presents new players with most of its complexity up front, in character >creation. It's also damned hard to get hold of new copies these days. -- ###### From: "Wil Hutton" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:17:50 -0700 Organization: Keyway Internet Service www.keyway.net Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8g6aa4$ulm$1@madmax.keyway.net> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> <9CuV4.151$iV.2547@news.get2net.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: o004-dyna-194.keyway.net X-Trace: madmax.keyway.net 958835844 31414 207.155.49.194 (20 May 2000 15:17:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@keyway.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 2000 15:17:24 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!news.keyway.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6975 "Klaus Æ. Mogensen" wrote in message news:9CuV4.151$iV.2547@news.get2net.dk... > "Wil Hutton" wrote: > I think Hero works very well for fantasy. The fact that stats are > grainy only makes skill that more important, though I guess you > could change the skill base to (8 + stat/3), so skills follow the > same progression as combat value. I'm not sure what you mean by grainy...I always thought 1 (or is it 3?) to 20 and higher is pretty good. Or are you referring to the rounding (stat/3)? Is the changing of the skill base something common? [snip] Thanks for the advice. It definitely helps to see how the system falls together to see how people who play it do things (and takes some of the hugeness out of the task). -- Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/ JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/ The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club Metro Survivor's Homepage and more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/ eBay auctions: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/darksinner/ ###### From: john_dot_desmarais_at_attglobal_dot_net (John Desmarais) Message-ID: Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g3v8t$2g95@edrn.newsguy.com> <8g4mok$ivs$1@news.service.uci.edu> X-Newsreader: ProNews/2 Version 1.50á1/02 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.100.44.200 Date: 20 May 2000 16:34:19 GMT X-Trace: 20 May 2000 16:34:19 GMT, 32.100.44.200 Organization: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & News Services Lines: 45 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news3.prserv.net!32.100.44.200 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7009 On Sat, 20 May 2000 00:37:40, jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) wrote: > > Blackberry wrote: > >I'm a HERO fan, currently trying out GURPS. I think HERO's weakest point > >is that it doesn't scale to lower levels well at all. If you're not a > >super-, then you're pretty much exactly the same as everyone else. Sure, > >your numbers might be different, but there's no point. 13 STR rounds up > >to 15 for most purposes, but there's no game difference between having > >a 10 STR, 11 STR, and 12 STR -- > > Hm. STR 10 in HERO has 2d6 strike damage while STR 11 > has 2d6+1. Just +1 might be a small difference in a superhero game, > but when average is only 7 STUN then +1 makes a difference. On the > other hand, you are right that there is no difference between STR 11 > and STR 12. > > This is esthetically unpleasing, but mechanically I think > normal human range is differentiated about as well as most games. > In GURPS, human attributes ostensibly go from 1 to 20, but any GURPS > player can tell you that attributes of 16+ produce pretty outrageous > effects (i.e. speak languages better than natives overnight, or take > a bazooka shell to the torso and live). This seems corresponds with > HERO stats of maybe 20-25. In HERO, 20 is only the "normal" maxima > which can be exceeded by exceptional individuals. > > There are seven steps in Strength damage in HERO between > STR 10 and STR 20: 2d, 2d+1, 2.5d, 3d, 3d+1, 2.5d, 4d. In GURPS, > there are seven steps from ST10 to ST16 (which I say is comparable): > Thrust: 1d-2, 1d-1, 1d-1, 1d , 1d , 1d+1, 1d+1 > Swing: 1d , 1d+1, 1d+2, 2d-1, 2d , 2d+1, 2d+2 Umm... And you got this from where? Not any Hero System rulesbook I've ever read (and I've read them all as it is my game system of choice). STR 10 does 2d6 damage, STR 11 also does 2d6 damage, as does STR 12. A kind GM might give 3d6 for 13 and 14, maybe not, but at 15 you get 3d6. There are no intermediary stages of damage from STR. > Overall, I would say that GURPS has a greater distinction > overall between its steps, percentage-wise. However, the difference > is just not very big. > ###### From: john_dot_desmarais_at_attglobal_dot_net (John Desmarais) Message-ID: Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> <9CuV4.151$iV.2547@news.get2net.dk> <8g6aa4$ulm$1@madmax.keyway.net> X-Newsreader: ProNews/2 Version 1.50á1/02 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.100.44.200 Date: 20 May 2000 16:49:18 GMT X-Trace: 20 May 2000 16:49:18 GMT, 32.100.44.200 Organization: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & News Services Lines: 31 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!znr.news.ans.net!newsfeed.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news3.prserv.net!32.100.44.200 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6996 On Sat, 20 May 2000 15:17:50, "Wil Hutton" wrote: > "Klaus Æ. Mogensen" wrote in message > news:9CuV4.151$iV.2547@news.get2net.dk... > > "Wil Hutton" wrote: > > > I think Hero works very well for fantasy. The fact that stats are > > grainy only makes skill that more important, though I guess you > > could change the skill base to (8 + stat/3), so skills follow the > > same progression as combat value. > > I'm not sure what you mean by grainy...I always thought 1 (or is it 3?) to > 20 and higher is pretty good. Or are you referring to the rounding > (stat/3)? Is the changing of the skill base something common? What he's refering to is that fact while normal stats may run the range 0 to 20, the only value that have any realy meaning are 0,5,10,15, & 20 (DEX and EGO are exception in that 0, 3, 6, 9, 12, & 18 are also significant in combat). So, instead of having 20 steps of meaningfull diferentiation, you really only have 5. This is due to the way stat checks and stat based skills are figured: instead of rolling against the stat value (or basing the default value for the skill on the stat value) the stat check (and base skill value) are done against (STAT/5)+9. This is basically a artifact of Hero being (at it's heart) a superhero system wherein stats can get VERY high, but the designers still wanted to be able to use a 3d6 roll for stat/skill checks. John Desmarais http://www.sysabend.org/champions ###### From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 20 May 2000 19:29:26 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 40 Message-ID: <8g6p2m$j91$1@news.service.uci.edu> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g3v8t$2g95@edrn.newsguy.com> <8g4mok$ivs$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.ps.uci.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!enews.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.service.uci.edu!cascade.ps.uci.edu!jhkim Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7057 John Desmarais wrote: >John Kim wrote: >> There are seven steps in Strength damage in HERO between >> STR 10 and STR 20: 2d, 2d+1, 2.5d, 3d, 3d+1, 2.5d, 4d. In GURPS, >> there are seven steps from ST10 to ST16 (which I say is comparable): >> Thrust: 1d-2, 1d-1, 1d-1, 1d , 1d , 1d+1, 1d+1 >> Swing: 1d , 1d+1, 1d+2, 2d-1, 2d , 2d+1, 2d+2 > >Umm... And you got this from where? Not any Hero System rulesbook >I've ever read (and I've read them all as it is my game system of >choice). STR 10 does 2d6 damage, STR 11 also does 2d6 damage, as does >STR 12. A kind GM might give 3d6 for 13 and 14, maybe not, but at 15 >you get 3d6. There are no intermediary stages of damage from STR. Hm. Well, let me flip open my 4th edition _Champions_ book (the "BBB"): p158 (under "How Many Dice Do I Roll?"): "Of course, STR can be bought in totals that are not multiples of 5. If the hero's STR is over half way to the next multiple of 5 (3 or 4; 8 or 9) then the character can add 1/2 d6 of effect. For instance, someone with a STR of 23 would do 4 1/2 d6 of damage with a punch (23/5 = 4.6)." That seems to establish your absolute statement wrong. It even lists the half-dice in the STR chart. However, I can't find the reference for the +1 for STR 11-12 right now. It may be an optional rule from one of the supplements, in which case I was wrong as well. It does seem obvious given the Damage Class progression (i.e. for Killing Attacks, 1DC= +1, 2DC= +1/2 d6, 3DC= +1d6), but it may not be in the core rules. -- John H. Kim | Whatever else is true you jhkim@fnal.gov | Trust your little finger www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can UC Irvine, Cal, USA | Save the world. - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins" ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: "David L. Pulver" X-Sender: dlpulver@hermes Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.186.40.2 Lines: 17 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.246.2.4 X-Original-Trace: 20 May 2000 15:42:50 -0500, 199.246.2.4 Organization: Kingston Online Services Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 15:42:45 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.246.3.130 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 958851459 199.246.3.130 (Sat, 20 May 2000 14:37:39 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 14:37:39 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!news2.kosone.com!news.kosone.com!hermes!dlpulver Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7062 On Sat, 20 May 2000, Sidhain wrote: > BESM-Big Eyes Small Mouth, probably the simplest, but also the one with less deviation over all > of the games it's meant to do one thing well---Anime/Manga, but considering the broad Genres > that covers it does it well--with all three books BESM, Cool Starships Big Robots, and Hot Rods > and Gun Bunnies, one can do anything GURP can do, almost everything HERO and Fuzion can do, but > Superheroes are a little out o it's realm--so far---Hey Guys can I do the Supers suplement? > Please? BESM 2nd edition will be a complete meta system in one book that will handle all forms of paranormal powers, mecha, skills, and so on, for just about any anime genre. Since that covers just about anything else, there you go. If you'd like to write a more detailed genre sourcebook for us, contact me... ###### From: "Mr. Tines" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 20:47:11 +0100 Message-ID: References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: windsong.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: windsong.demon.co.uk:158.152.107.88 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 958853878 nnrp-12:22281 NO-IDENT windsong.demon.co.uk:158.152.107.88 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 S Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!windsong.demon.co.uk!tines Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7068 In article <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net>, Wil Hutton writes >To mimic a similar question I posted to a different group, are there any >combinations of Hero rules (regular, optional or house) that make it >smoother/faster to play? Also, how does Fantasy Hero work vs. a GURPS >Fantasy game? I've always liked the presentation in Fantasy Hero and the >ability to pretty much create all of the frameworks for different kinds of >magic and powers to suit appeals to me. My own experience is that Hero makes STR too useful (at least pre 4th edition), except in circumstances where there are firearms, as per Sam Colt's equalizer. And magic is damned expensive, unless *very* limited. While I am no GURPS fan (in general, I think it suffers from many of the same things that are flaws in HERO where skills are concerned), at least GURPS doesn't have an optimal STR19/DEX14 fighter combo which you can buy with plenty left over from 75pts; and GURPS does mages a bit more effectively. -- PGPfingerprint: BC01 5527 B493 7C9B 3C54 D1B7 248C 08BC -- _______ {pegwit v8 public key =581cbf05be9899262ab4bb6a08470} /_ __(_)__ ___ ___ {69c10bcfbca894a5bf8d208d001b829d4d0} / / / / _ \/ -_|_-< http://www.ravnaandtines.com/ /_/ /_/_//_/\__/___/@ravnaandtines.com PGP key on page ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Message-ID: References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g3v8t$2g95@edrn.newsguy.com> <8g4mok$ivs$1@news.service.uci.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 20:09:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.35 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 958853360 208.153.245.35 (Sat, 20 May 2000 13:09:20 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:09:20 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!korova.insync.net!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7061 >Umm... And you got this from where? Not any Hero System rulesbook >I've ever read (and I've read them all as it is my game system of >choice). STR 10 does 2d6 damage, STR 11 also does 2d6 damage, as does >STR 12. A kind GM might give 3d6 for 13 and 14, maybe not, but at 15 >you get 3d6. There are no intermediary stages of damage from STR. I guess you're not familiar with the general rule that on the five per die scale, half dies cut in at 3's? At one time, there even used to be 1 point steps at the 1's and 2's. The latter is long gone, but if you insist I can dig up the reference on the former. ###### From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 20 May 2000 20:41:34 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 55 Message-ID: <8g6t9u$l89$1@news.service.uci.edu> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <9CuV4.151$iV.2547@news.get2net.dk> <8g6aa4$ulm$1@madmax.keyway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.ps.uci.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!enews.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.service.uci.edu!cascade.ps.uci.edu!jhkim Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7058 John Desmarais wrote: >On Sat, 20 May 2000 15:17:50, "Wil Hutton" wrote: >> I'm not sure what you mean by grainy...I always thought 1 (or is it 3?) >> to 20 and higher is pretty good. Or are you referring to the rounding >> (stat/3)? Is the changing of the skill base something common? > >What he's refering to is that fact while normal stats may run the >range 0 to 20, the only value that have any realy meaning are >0,5,10,15, & 20 (DEX and EGO are exception in that 0, 3, 6, 9, 12, & >18 are also significant in combat). [...] >This is basically a artifact of Hero being (at it's heart) a superhero >system wherein stats can get VERY high, but the designers still wanted >to be able to use a 3d6 roll for stat/skill checks. Um? Let's consider the eight characteristics: 1) STR: Since there are half-dice of damage (p158), this has at least two steps every 5 points. 2) DEX: This is used directly (1-for-1) for who goes first in combat, as DEX/3 for combat, and as DEX/5 for skill roll base. 3) CON: The only direct game use of CON is how much STUN damage in one shot will "stun" you, 1-for-1. 4) BODY: This is directly the number of hits you can take before dying, again 1-for-1. 5) INT: Here the charge is true. INT is only used for 9+INT/5 which is the base for perception rolls and certain skills. 6) EGO: This is used as EGO/3 for mental combat, used 1-for-1 to defend against mental effects, and EGO/5 for willpower rolls. 7) PER: Here the charge is almost true. This is used as 9+PRE/5 for base social skills, PRE/5 dice for presence attacks, and 1-for-1 to defend against PRE attacks. 8) COM: Well, this stat isn't used at all! OK, so a COM roll *may* be complementary to a Seduction roll, but mainly this is purely descriptive (and is dirt cheap in consequence). On the one hand, your statement is only really true for a small fraction of the characteristics. On the other hand, the general point is true that there are many cases where a difference of +-1 in primary characteristic has no direct game effect. This may be unesthetic, but the effective granularity of HERO is still pretty good. In particular, the common statement that HERO doesn't distinguish well among normal humans is ridiculous. HERO has a huge variety of stats and options to distinguish among humans -- certainly much more than core-rules GURPS (although the compendium supplements address this). -- John H. Kim | Whatever else is true you jhkim@fnal.gov | Trust your little finger www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can UC Irvine, Cal, USA | Save the world. - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins" ###### From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 20 May 2000 21:34:27 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8g70d3$mjh$1@news.service.uci.edu> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.ps.uci.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!news.service.uci.edu!cascade.ps.uci.edu!jhkim Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7060 Mr. Tines wrote: >My own experience is that Hero makes STR too useful (at least pre 4th >edition), except in circumstances where there are firearms, as per Sam >Colt's equalizer. And magic is damned expensive, unless *very* limited. > >While I am no GURPS fan (in general, I think it suffers from many of the >same things that are flaws in HERO where skills are concerned), at least >GURPS doesn't have an optimal STR19/DEX14 fighter combo which you can >buy with plenty left over from 75pts; and GURPS does mages a bit more >effectively. Well, on the one hand, I agree that it is almost always worthwhile to buy STR up to the normal human max in HERO. So if your players are concerned with squeezing value out of every point, then high-STR fighters will be the norm. On the other hand, lower-STR fighters are perfectly viable - costing only a few points more for the same effectiveness (perhaps 2-4 extra points out of 150 typical for human heroes). Unlike GURPS, in HERO skill levels can let you do extra damage, so skill can substitute for strength -- although it is slightly less cost-effective. -- John H. Kim | Whatever else is true you jhkim@fnal.gov | Trust your little finger www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can UC Irvine, Cal, USA | Save the world. - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins" ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 20 May 2000 21:49:30 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 7 Message-ID: <8g719a$643$1@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <8g67ma$d43$1@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhdzp.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 958859370 6275 149.174.88.240 (20 May 2000 21:49:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 2000 21:49:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7039 > It's also damned hard to get hold of new copies these > days. Is it? I thought Mark Arsenault posted a reply a month or so back that the book was fairly available. Admittedly with the 5th edition rules in the works the supply of 4E books is definitely finite however. ###### From: "Klaus Æ. Mogensen" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <9CuV4.151$iV.2547@news.get2net.dk> <8g6aa4$ulm$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g6t9u$l89$1@news.service.uci.edu> Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Lines: 55 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <_SDV4.664$iV.8558@news.get2net.dk> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 23:54:09 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.220.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 958859834 195.82.220.202 (Sat, 20 May 2000 23:57:14 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 23:57:14 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.man.poznan.pl!news.task.gda.pl!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7045 "John Kim" wrote: > > 1) STR: Since there are half-dice of damage (p158), this has at > least two steps every 5 points. It is also possible to calculate carrying capacities for each +1 STR. > 2) DEX: This is used directly (1-for-1) for who goes first in combat, > as DEX/3 for combat, and as DEX/5 for skill roll base. > 3) CON: The only direct game use of CON is how much STUN damage > in one shot will "stun" you, 1-for-1. Also CON-Roll (9+CON/5). > 4) BODY: This is directly the number of hits you can take before > dying, again 1-for-1. > 5) INT: Here the charge is true. INT is only used for 9+INT/5 which > is the base for perception rolls and certain skills. > 6) EGO: This is used as EGO/3 for mental combat, used 1-for-1 to > defend against mental effects, and EGO/5 for willpower rolls. > 7) PER: Here the charge is almost true. This is used as 9+PRE/5 for > base social skills, PRE/5 dice for presence attacks, and 1-for-1 > to defend against PRE attacks. Presumably you can also have half-dice for presence attacks. > 8) COM: Well, this stat isn't used at all! OK, so a COM roll *may* > be complementary to a Seduction roll, but mainly this is purely > descriptive (and is dirt cheap in consequence). In many cases, +1 in a characteristic will also add to one or more figured characteristics, even when there's no change in the direct application of the stat. But my original statement about granularity was referring only to skill use (at least, I meant it to). -- Klaus Æ. Mogensen http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius Exaggeration facilitates comprehension Understatement facilitates credibility ###### From: "Klaus Æ. Mogensen" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <0TDV4.665$iV.8558@news.get2net.dk> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 23:57:33 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.220.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 958859836 195.82.220.202 (Sat, 20 May 2000 23:57:16 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 23:57:16 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7043 "David L. Pulver" wrote: > > BESM 2nd edition will be a complete meta system in one book that will > handle all forms of paranormal powers, mecha, skills, and so on, for just > about any anime genre. Since that covers just about anything else, there > you go. When will this be out? -- Klaus Æ. Mogensen http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius Exaggeration facilitates comprehension Understatement facilitates credibility ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 20 May 2000 22:00:45 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8g71ud$643$2@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <8g6t9u$l89$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhdzp.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 958860045 6275 149.174.88.240 (20 May 2000 22:00:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 2000 22:00:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7042 John Kim wrote: > This may be unesthetic, but the effective granularity of > HERO is still pretty good. In particular, the common statement > that HERO doesn't distinguish well among normal humans is > ridiculous. HERO has a huge variety of stats and options to > distinguish among humans -- certainly much more than core-rules > GURPS (although the compendium supplements address this). Well Compendium 1 is a core book last I heard, and since someone on this thread is making the case that GURPS requires a $50 minimum investment, either Compendium 1 =! core rules or that cost argument goes out the window. Even using the basic set, most of the Hero CHA not listed as Attributes in GURPS are found as advantages/disadvantages aren't they? ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 20 May 2000 22:07:07 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8g72ab$643$3@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <8g70d3$mjh$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhdzp.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 958860427 6275 149.174.88.240 (20 May 2000 22:07:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 2000 22:07:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7041 John Kim wrote: > Well, on the one hand, I agree that it is almost always > worthwhile to buy STR up to the normal human max in HERO. So if > your players are concerned with squeezing value out of every > point, then high-STR fighters will be the norm. On the other > hand, lower-STR fighters are perfectly viable - costing only a > few points more for the same effectiveness (perhaps 2-4 extra > points out of 150 typical for human heroes). Unlike GURPS, in > HERO skill levels can let you do extra damage, so skill can > substitute for strength -- although it is slightly less > cost-effective. Nits to pick: 1) high skill aids all HTH combat in GURPS. 2) With the weapon master advantage those HTH bonuses are applied to weapons and 3) even without those bonuses, high skill tends to make attacking body parts an effective tactic as it nullifies the effects of to hit penalties. And damage done to specific body parts effectively simulates extra damage since doing six points of damage to a 12 HT character's weapon arm effectively non-functs a foe as well as doing 12 points to his torso. ###### X-Originating-Host: 216.70.78.159 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Lines: 16 From: tnbagwell Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <0804aef0.c83b60ba@usw-ex0101-005.remarq.com> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> Bytes: 545 X-Wren-Trace: eOnM5OX8u/G6vfPj7a7/5ff22ent/7334Ozo4a7z9b2mvfi+qf6sqbKwo72y8A== Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 16:57:23 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.5 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 958867732 10.0.2.5 (Sat, 20 May 2000 17:08:52 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 17:08:52 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7070 In article , "David L. Pulver" wrote: >BESM 2nd edition will be a complete meta system in one book that will >handle all forms of paranormal powers, mecha, skills, and so on, for just >about any anime genre. Since that covers just about anything else, there >you go. Hey...will it hand Dragonball Z? Tom B. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 21 May 2000 00:52:28 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 43 Message-ID: <8g7c0c$s4f$1@news.service.uci.edu> References: <8g6t9u$l89$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g71ud$643$2@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.ps.uci.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.service.uci.edu!cascade.ps.uci.edu!jhkim Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7059 SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> wrote: >John Kim wrote: >> In particular, the common statement that HERO doesn't distinguish >> well among normal humans is ridiculous. HERO has a huge variety >> of stats and options to distinguish among humans -- certainly much >> more than core-rules GURPS (although the compendium supplements >> address this). > >Well Compendium 1 is a core book last I heard, and since someone on >this thread is making the case that GURPS requires a $50 minimum >investment, either Compendium 1 =! core rules or that cost argument >goes out the window. Even using the basic set, most of the Hero >CHA not listed as Attributes in GURPS are found as advantages/ >disadvantages aren't they? Well, I didn't make that cost argument... and it seems silly since people played GURPS for nearly ten years before _Compendium I_ came out. I would say only a bare majority of HERO stats are covered in the Basic Set. There is nothing parallel to separate STR, REC, and END (all lumped into GURPS' ST). There is nothing parallel to separate BODY, CON, and STUN (all lumped into GURPS' HT). GURPS has only one Toughness to parallel separate PD and ED. There is no parallel to SPD. (Both systems let you modify running speed, but that is a different stat.) Core HERO also has other options that have no parallel in the Basic Set. Notably, Skill Enhancers and General Skill Levels let you make a character who is, say, a great overall scientist without also being talented at everything from Poetry to Animal Handling. The Basic Set has only 3 limited-case advantages of this sort (Language Talent, Musical Ability, and the one-shot Mathematical Ability). As I said, I think the GURPS Compendiums do address these. My point was mainly that it was wrong to say that the standard HERO system doesn't distinguish between normal humans. -- John H. Kim | Whatever else is true you jhkim@fnal.gov | Trust your little finger www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can UC Irvine, Cal, USA | Save the world. - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins" ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 21 May 2000 05:42:35 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 6 Message-ID: <8g7t0b$nc4$1@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <8g7c0c$s4f$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhdzb.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 958887755 23940 149.174.88.254 (21 May 2000 05:42:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 May 2000 05:42:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7046 John Kim wrote: > There is nothing parallel to separate STR, REC, and END (all > lumped into GURPS' ST). the fact that they're not separated is not the same as not having them in the game at all. ###### From: "Klaus Æ. Mogensen" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8g7c0c$s4f$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g7t0b$nc4$1@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:25:33 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.213.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 958907482 195.82.213.94 (Sun, 21 May 2000 13:11:22 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:11:22 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7048 "SD Anderson" <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> wrote: > > John Kim wrote: > > There is nothing parallel to separate STR, REC, and END (all > > lumped into GURPS' ST). > > the fact that they're not separated is not the same as not > having them in the game at all. He didn't claim they weren't in the game, he claimed they weren't in the game as _separate_ stats. Which they aren't (for bad or good): -- Klaus Æ. Mogensen http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius Exaggeration facilitates comprehension Understatement facilitates credibility ###### From: "Klaus Æ. Mogensen" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8g70d3$mjh$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g72ab$643$3@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:28:38 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.213.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 958907483 195.82.213.94 (Sun, 21 May 2000 13:11:23 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:11:23 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!unlisys!news.snafu.de!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7049 "SD Anderson" <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> wrote... > > John Kim wrote: > > Unlike GURPS, in HERO skill levels > > can let you do extra damage, so skill can > > substitute for strength -- although it is slightly > > less cost-effective. > > Nits to pick: 1) high skill aids all HTH combat in GURPS. 2) > With the weapon master advantage those HTH bonuses are applied to > weapons and 3) even without those bonuses, high skill tends to > make attacking body parts an effective tactic as it nullifies the > effects of to hit penalties. > > And damage done to specific body parts effectively simulates > extra damage since doing six points of damage to a 12 HT > character's weapon arm effectively non-functs a foe as well as > doing 12 points to his torso. All of these are also true for HERO. But in addition to that, you can use two combat levels to add one damage class to your HTH damage. -- Klaus Æ. Mogensen http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius Exaggeration facilitates comprehension Understatement facilitates credibility ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Message-ID: References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <9CuV4.151$iV.2547@news.get2net.dk> <8g6aa4$ulm$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g6t9u$l89$1@news.service.uci.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 62 Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 19:15:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.24 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 958936513 208.153.245.24 (Sun, 21 May 2000 12:15:13 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:15:13 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7143 On 20 May 2000 20:41:34 GMT, jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) wrote: > > Um? Let's consider the eight characteristics: > >1) STR: Since there are half-dice of damage (p158), this has at > least two steps every 5 points. There are also some minor effects on Stun every other point. >2) DEX: This is used directly (1-for-1) for who goes first in combat, > as DEX/3 for combat, and as DEX/5 for skill roll base. >3) CON: The only direct game use of CON is how much STUN damage > in one shot will "stun" you, 1-for-1. It also contributes to Stun one per two. >4) BODY: This is directly the number of hits you can take before > dying, again 1-for-1. And a 1-for-1 contribution to stun. >5) INT: Here the charge is true. INT is only used for 9+INT/5 which > is the base for perception rolls and certain skills. Yes. It's the single coarsest attribute in the game. >6) EGO: This is used as EGO/3 for mental combat, used 1-for-1 to > defend against mental effects, and EGO/5 for willpower rolls. On the other hand, in games with little or no paranormal activity, the Ego combat effects are largely moot. >7) PER: Here the charge is almost true. This is used as 9+PRE/5 for > base social skills, PRE/5 dice for presence attacks, and 1-for-1 > to defend against PRE attacks. Though we've always interpeted it as function like Strength and Energy Blasts by giving half-dice at the 3's. >8) COM: Well, this stat isn't used at all! OK, so a COM roll *may* > be complementary to a Seduction roll, but mainly this is purely > descriptive (and is dirt cheap in consequence). > > On the one hand, your statement is only really true for >a small fraction of the characteristics. On the other hand, the >general point is true that there are many cases where a difference >of +-1 in primary characteristic has no direct game effect. > > This may be unesthetic, but the effective granularity of >HERO is still pretty good. In particular, the common statement >that HERO doesn't distinguish well among normal humans is >ridiculous. HERO has a huge variety of stats and options to >distinguish among humans -- certainly much more than core-rules >GURPS (although the compendium supplements address this). The problem usually is that some breakpoints are so overwhelmingly attractive you see them again and again and again. 18 Con and Dexterity in Heroic scale games, for example, or 20 Strengths in Heroic fantasy games. ###### From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 21 May 2000 19:35:36 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8g9dq8$t83$1@news.service.uci.edu> References: <8g7c0c$s4f$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g7t0b$nc4$1@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.ps.uci.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!CensurBot.NetScum.Dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!134.139.10.31!csulb.edu!news.service.uci.edu!cascade.ps.uci.edu!jhkim Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7133 SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> wrote: >John Kim wrote: >> There is nothing parallel to separate STR, REC, and END (all >> lumped into GURPS' ST). > >the fact that they're not separated is not the same as not >having them in the game at all. Eh? I certainly agree, and I never said otherwise. Topic check: my point was that the basic HERO rules have a great many options to distinguish between normal humans. To give a basis for comparison, I said that it had more such options than the basic GURPS rules -- although as I said many times, the Compendiums address this. -- John H. Kim | Whatever else is true you jhkim@fnal.gov | Trust your little finger www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can UC Irvine, Cal, USA | Save the world. - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins" ###### From: Rick Pikul Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Message-ID: References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g3v8t$2g95@edrn.newsguy.com> <8g4mok$ivs$1@news.service.uci.edu> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.20 Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.226.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 958938681 206.172.226.58 (Sun, 21 May 2000 15:51:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 15:51:21 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com X-Sender: bMNoLjA2H/qXc Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 19:51:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7145 In article , john_dot_desmarais_at_attglobal_dot_net (John Desmarais) says... > On Sat, 20 May 2000 00:37:40, jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) > wrote: > > > > > Blackberry wrote: > > >I'm a HERO fan, currently trying out GURPS. I think HERO's weakest point > > >is that it doesn't scale to lower levels well at all. If you're not a > > >super-, then you're pretty much exactly the same as everyone else. Sure, > > >your numbers might be different, but there's no point. 13 STR rounds up > > >to 15 for most purposes, but there's no game difference between having > > >a 10 STR, 11 STR, and 12 STR -- > > > > Hm. STR 10 in HERO has 2d6 strike damage while STR 11 > > has 2d6+1. Just +1 might be a small difference in a superhero game, > > but when average is only 7 STUN then +1 makes a difference. On the > > other hand, you are right that there is no difference between STR 11 > > and STR 12. {Foomph...} > Umm... And you got this from where? Not any Hero System rulesbook > I've ever read (and I've read them all as it is my game system of > choice). STR 10 does 2d6 damage, STR 11 also does 2d6 damage, as does > STR 12. A kind GM might give 3d6 for 13 and 14, maybe not, but at 15 > you get 3d6. There are no intermediary stages of damage from STR. BBB, p158: If the hero's STR is over half way to the next multiple of 5 (3 or 4; 8 or 9) then the character can add 1/2d6 of effect. Giving an extra pip for 5n+(1,2), would be a house rule.[1] [1] And one which just found its way into my campaign, not that it matters at the moment. -- Phoenix ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 21 May 2000 22:56:31 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 8 Message-ID: <8g9piv$9q2$1@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mhdze.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 958949791 10050 149.174.88.251 (21 May 2000 22:56:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 May 2000 22:56:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7114 Klaus Mogensen wrote: > He didn't claim they weren't in the game, he claimed they > weren't in the game as _separate_ stats. Which they aren't (for > bad or good): Which in itself was a non-sequitorial reply to my statement that many of the things Hero uses as CHA are in GURPS. Separateness was not an issue at all until John introduced it. ###### From: "Grant Enfield" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 19:12:36 -0700 Organization: Arizona State University Lines: 43 Message-ID: <8ga52n$bk1$1@news.asu.edu> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g4q34$klv$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sss18-03.inre.asu.edu X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.asu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7086 John Kim wrote in message <8g4q34$klv$1@news.service.uci.edu>... >1) I have all PC's and combat opponents at SPD 4. This eliminates > having to use the SPD chart. Unfortunately, the Speed Chart is the best thing about the system, in my opinion. But I also don't think it takes very long to memorize which SPDs go on which phases, and it certainly takes very little effort to remember on which phases your own PC acts. >2) I recommend ignoring Endurance in nearly all cases. Tracking > blow-by-blow END loss is just a waste of time. While END may very well be pointless for thug-level NPCs, it's not hard at all for players to keep track of END use. But I'd leave it out when teaching the system to new players. >3) An obvious but sometimes missed one is for players to record > 11+OCV for their maneuvers. Then when it is their turn, they > roll 3d6 and subtract from that number to get the DCV they hit. I really don't know why this isn't presented in the book. The "add eleven" adds one more step, but the formula results in the expected "what I hit" rather than the unexpected "knowing what I need to hit my opponent, I did or didn't hit." My gaming group has always done it "backwards" and people outside our group we introduce it to pick it up right away. ~enfield ###### From: "Wil Hutton" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 19:40:12 -0700 Organization: Keyway Internet Service www.keyway.net Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8ga6l8$kn1$1@madmax.keyway.net> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g4q34$klv$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8ga52n$bk1$1@news.asu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: o003-dyna-153.keyway.net X-Trace: madmax.keyway.net 958963176 21217 207.155.49.153 (22 May 2000 02:39:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@keyway.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 2000 02:39:36 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsxfer.interpacket.net!news.interpacket.net!news.keyway.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7111 "Grant Enfield" wrote in message news:8ga52n$bk1$1@news.asu.edu... > Unfortunately, the Speed Chart is the best thing about the system, in my > opinion. But I also don't think it takes very long to memorize which SPDs go > on which phases, and it certainly takes very little effort to remember on > which phases your own PC acts. I just found a page with an interesting house rule. Basically, each phase everyone rolls a die. If the result is lower than their SPD, they get to go. If a 1 is rolled, everyone goes. The only problem I can see is how big of a die to use to use - the page says to use one that's bigger than the highest SPD, but for it to work "right" I'd assume you'd have to use a d12 (there are 12 phases, right? Or is it 10?). -- Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/ JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/ The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club Metro Survivor's Homepage and more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/ eBay auctions: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/darksinner/ ###### From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 22 May 2000 02:41:08 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8ga6o4$e4q$1@news.service.uci.edu> References: <8g9piv$9q2$1@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.ps.uci.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!132.239.1.220!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.service.uci.edu!cascade.ps.uci.edu!jhkim Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7134 SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> wrote: >Klaus Mogensen wrote: >> He didn't claim they weren't in the game, he claimed they >> weren't in the game as _separate_ stats. Which they aren't (for >> bad or good): > > Which in itself was a non-sequitorial reply to my statement >that many of the things Hero uses as CHA are in GURPS. >Separateness was not an issue at all until John introduced it. No, *you* started it! Nyah, nyah. :-) Seriously, since we both agree on what is there, I don't see any need to argue. For what its worth, the topic that I was talking about was my comment (which you replied to) on how the HERO system has a wide variety of options for distinguishing among normal humans -- and I compared it to the GURPS Basic Set. -- John H. Kim | Whatever else is true you jhkim@fnal.gov | Trust your little finger www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can UC Irvine, Cal, USA | Save the world. - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins" ###### From: Gary Johnson Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 22 May 2000 04:47:24 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 58 Message-ID: <8gae4s$n5$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: fox.uq.net.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 958970844 741 203.101.255.1 (22 May 2000 04:47:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 2000 04:47:24 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7117 John Kim wrote: : This is in reply to Wil Hutton regarding his question about : the perennial GURPS-vs-HERO comparison along with Fuzion. He is : pretty familiar with GURPS so I will skimp on that. :>Hero: It seems completely, overly complicated. Chargen is really cool :>(although I have to resist the urge to tweak everything and anything :>I can), but combat seems a real chore. Way too many rolls and too :>many Capitalized Abbreviated Terms and values. : Well, the major slowness shows up in superheroic combat : when you have to roll 15 dice and add them up two different ways : and then deal with knockback. For "heroic" games, combat is somewhat : easier (no knockback, 2-5d). One of my players wrote a computer program that calculated lots of results for different dice rolls and printed them out. That was ten years ago ... I'm still somewhat surprised that someone hasn't made a freeware or shareware program available for people to use as random number generators. Print off 100 results of each dice roll between 8d6 and 20d6 and the GM has a quick'n'easy way to save everyone making lots of dice rolls (only one of my players still insists on rolling her damage all the time). It makes things much quicker (though it means that some of my players never roll damage, so they don't know how to count BODY on normal attacks when they do punch people for 3d6 STR damage). [snip] : I think the underlying model in HERO combat is good, but : the rules are written without any regard for ease of comprehension : or ease of use. While I like the system a lot, I found that trying : to explain it was a real pain -- and trying to use the rulebook did : more harm than good. Conclusion: learning the system is difficult. : I would not recommend it for players who are not hardened to learning : semi-complex systems. However, once learned it plays pretty well. I agree. There's a steep initial learning curve, but once you become familiar with the game system the only real problem is learning how the individual GM scales the campaign settings. [snip] : I base my opinion mainly on the _Champions: TNM_ rules as : they appeared. Frankly, while the *concept* of simplifying HERO : is a fine one, I thought the execution was abyssmal. [snip] I found the campaign setting so unlikeable that I didn't even bother with examining the game system too closely. In the end, I did add some of the skills from C:TNM to my X-Men campaign rules. Cheers, Gary Johnson Home Page: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg X-Men Campaign: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg/xmen.htm ###### From: "Klaus Æ. Mogensen" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g4q34$klv$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8ga52n$bk1$1@news.asu.edu> <8ga6l8$kn1$1@madmax.keyway.net> Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:20:10 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.47.137.129 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 958990931 195.47.137.129 (Mon, 22 May 2000 12:22:11 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:22:11 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7104 "Wil Hutton" wrote: > > I just found a page with an interesting house rule. Basically, each phase > everyone rolls a die. If the result is lower than their SPD, they get to > go. If a 1 is rolled, everyone goes. The only problem I can see is how big > of a die to use to use - the page says to use one that's bigger than the > highest SPD, but for it to work "right" I'd assume you'd have to use a d12. You have to use a d12 if you want to have 1 second rounds (equal to the standard segments). If you use a d6, you have to use 2 second rounds in order to get the same number of actions per minute. The smaller a die you use, the less chance there is of somebody not getting to act at all. Another option is to use a deck of playing cards. If a card of value 1-12 (Ace to Queen( is drawn, everybody with that SPD or less gets to act, and if a King is drawn, everybody gets a recovery. This has the advantage that you are ensured that all values come up exactly four times when you go through a deck. If you want it to be possible for slow characters to sometimes act when faster ones can't, let each player have his own deck of cards. -- Klaus Æ. Mogensen http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius Exaggeration facilitates comprehension Understatement facilitates credibility ###### From: "Mr. Tines" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:41:50 +0100 Message-ID: References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <9CuV4.151$iV.2547@news.get2net.dk> <8g6aa4$ulm$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g6t9u$l89$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: windsong.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: windsong.demon.co.uk:158.152.107.88 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 959030116 nnrp-02:22742 NO-IDENT windsong.demon.co.uk:158.152.107.88 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 S Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!proxad.net!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!windsong.demon.co.uk!tines Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7215 In article , Wayne Shaw writes >The problem usually is that some breakpoints are so overwhelmingly >attractive you see them again and again and again. 18 Con and >Dexterity in Heroic scale games, for example, or 20 Strengths in >Heroic fantasy games. It may have changed in later versions, but the optimum STR for fantasy games used to be 19, because that was enough to get a damage add for 1-handed bastard sword, but 20 only gave benefits if you were brawling. -- PGPfingerprint: BC01 5527 B493 7C9B 3C54 D1B7 248C 08BC -- _______ {pegwit v8 public key =581cbf05be9899262ab4bb6a08470} /_ __(_)__ ___ ___ {69c10bcfbca894a5bf8d208d001b829d4d0} / / / / _ \/ -_|_-< http://www.ravnaandtines.com/ /_/ /_/_//_/\__/___/@ravnaandtines.com PGP key on page ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:18:31 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 23 Message-ID: <39298807.F8F4300B@myriad.net> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 2000 21:10:44 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!korova.insync.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7161 David Fair wrote: > > But... > > It does any genre, any character, any effect, and it does them well*. It is > my belief that if the world had to choose only one RPG, we would be least > hurt by selecting Hero. > > * Okay, it doesn't do oil slicks or icy patches well. That's about it. I really think they just need to bite the bullet and write in an 'Ice Slide' power, rather than trying to come up with funky ways to similate it with Entangles and DEX-drains. HERO also has little to no built-in support for open-ended powers, like an Absorbtion with no upper limit or complete immunity to a particular kind of attack. You can often simulate these, but it'll probably require some GM intervention. Kiz > > Thanks, > Dave ###### From: Blackberry Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 22 May 2000 14:30:24 -0700 Organization: Europa.com Lines: 53 Message-ID: <8gc8tg$kol@edrn.newsguy.com> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <9CuV4.151$iV.2547@news.get2net.dk> <8g6aa4$ulm$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g6t9u$l89$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-716.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!edrn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7180 In article <8g6t9u$l89$1@news.service.uci.edu>, jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu says... > > >John Desmarais wrote: >>On Sat, 20 May 2000 15:17:50, "Wil Hutton" wrote: >>> I'm not sure what you mean by grainy...I always thought 1 (or is it 3?) >>> to 20 and higher is pretty good. Or are you referring to the rounding >>> (stat/3)? Is the changing of the skill base something common? >> >>What he's refering to is that fact while normal stats may run the >>range 0 to 20, the only value that have any realy meaning are >>0,5,10,15, & 20 (DEX and EGO are exception in that 0, 3, 6, 9, 12, & >>18 are also significant in combat). >[...] >>This is basically a artifact of Hero being (at it's heart) a superhero >>system wherein stats can get VERY high, but the designers still wanted >>to be able to use a 3d6 roll for stat/skill checks. > > Um? Let's consider the eight characteristics: >[...] That's a good summary, and one I don't disagree with, as a long-time Hero player (since the first hand-typed Champions rulebook). > On the one hand, your statement is only really true for >a small fraction of the characteristics. On the other hand, the >general point is true that there are many cases where a difference >of +-1 in primary characteristic has no direct game effect. > > This may be unesthetic, but the effective granularity of >HERO is still pretty good. In particular, the common statement >that HERO doesn't distinguish well among normal humans is >ridiculous. HERO has a huge variety of stats and options to >distinguish among humans -- certainly much more than core-rules >GURPS (although the compendium supplements address this). >[...] You're right; we could both have all 10s in primaries and standards in figured characteristics, and you could purchase 2 more END points than I have. Would that make two normal humans different? Yes. Would it have an effect on game play? It's possible that it could in a stressful situation. But what does it represent? GURPS would represent that with an advantage like "A Little Extra Fatigue Capacity", and yes, it would probably be more coarse than Hero's END stat, but at least it would tell you that the character is a little harder to fatigue than a normal human, whereas a 22 END may not tell you that. Hero focuses on numbers telling you the story about a character; GURPS focuses on words telling you about the character. -------------------- "It's enough to make you wonder sometimes if you're on the right planet." -- Frankie Goes to Hollywood Brian -- lepus@europa.com -- http://www.europa.com/~lepus ###### From: Blackberry Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 22 May 2000 14:40:43 -0700 Organization: Europa.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8gc9gr$lsd@edrn.newsguy.com> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-812.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!207.211.168.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!edrn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7179 In article , "Mr. says... > >[...] >While I am no GURPS fan (in general, I think it suffers from many of the >same things that are flaws in HERO where skills are concerned), at least >GURPS doesn't have an optimal STR19/DEX14 fighter combo which you can >buy with plenty left over from 75pts; and GURPS does mages a bit more >effectively. Exactly. In Hero, you either buy to the breakpoints, or you end up wasting points frivolously. In GURPS, there are reasons to purchase certain levels of attributes. In other words, every value of an attribute *is* a breakpoint in GURPS. I'm not saying that one is better, because I like both; I'm only saying that they differ in approach. Hero's system encourages point twiddling, and figuring out what CON to buy to give you the best base END, STUN, ED, etc. without wasting too much on CON. In GURPS, if what you wanted out of CON was more toughness, then you buy "Toughness". Now, anyone who reads your character sheet can see that you are "tougher". They don't have to scan your attribute purchases and try to figure out what the extra CON *means* in your character's context. -------------------- "It's enough to make you wonder sometimes if you're on the right planet." -- Frankie Goes to Hollywood Brian -- lepus@europa.com -- http://www.europa.com/~lepus ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 22 May 2000 22:48:57 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 8 Message-ID: <8gcdgp$2bm$6@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <8ga6o4$e4q$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhdze.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 959035737 2422 149.174.88.251 (22 May 2000 22:48:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 2000 22:48:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7190 John Kim wrote: > No, *you* started it! Nyah, nyah. :-) Well, we gotta have ONE of these things on .misc before the century ends this Dec 31st so... DID NOT!!! DID NOT!!! ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 22 May 2000 22:54:20 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 10 Message-ID: <8gcdqs$2bm$7@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <39298807.F8F4300B@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhdze.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 959036060 2422 149.174.88.251 (22 May 2000 22:54:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 2000 22:54:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7193 > I really think they just need to bite the bullet and write > in an 'Ice Slide' power, rather than trying to come up with > funky ways to similate it with Entangles and DEX-drains. Arguably they need a rule of Y (rule of X being already taken) where Y modifiers is the maximum number you can apply to an existing power before being required to write it up as a NEW power. Basically if you have to bend, fold, staple and mold a power that much to get what you want, that power DOESN'T cover what your want. From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 22 May 2000 22:54:20 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 10 Message-ID: <8gcdqs$2bm$7@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <39298807.F8F4300B@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhdze.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 959036060 2422 149.174.88.251 (22 May 2000 22:54:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 2000 22:54:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7193 > I really think they just need to bite the bullet and write > in an 'Ice Slide' power, rather than trying to come up with > funky ways to similate it with Entangles and DEX-drains. Arguably they need a rule of Y (rule of X being already taken) where Y modifiers is the maximum number you can apply to an existing power before being required to write it up as a NEW power. Basically if you have to bend, fold, staple and mold a power that much to get what you want, that power DOESN'T cover what your want. ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: "David L. Pulver" X-Sender: dlpulver@hermes Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? In-Reply-To: <0TDV4.665$iV.8558@news.get2net.dk> Message-ID: References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> <0TDV4.665$iV.8558@news.get2net.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.246.2.198 Lines: 14 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.246.2.4 X-Original-Trace: 22 May 2000 19:26:40 -0500, 199.246.2.4 Organization: Kingston Online Services Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:26:46 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.246.3.130 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 959037520 199.246.3.130 (Mon, 22 May 2000 18:18:40 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:18:40 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!news2.kosone.com!news.kosone.com!mercury!dlpulver Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7201 On Sat, 20 May 2000, Klaus =C6. Mogensen wrote: > > BESM 2nd edition will be a complete meta system in one book > that will > > handle all forms of paranormal powers, mecha, skills, and so > on, for just > > about any anime genre. Since that covers just about anything > else, there > > you go. >=20 > When will this be out? We are shooting for GenCon. Some time in August or September, anyway. ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: "David L. Pulver" X-Sender: dlpulver@hermes Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? In-Reply-To: <0804aef0.c83b60ba@usw-ex0101-005.remarq.com> Message-ID: References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> <0804aef0.c83b60ba@usw-ex0101-005.remarq.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.186.40.2 Lines: 9 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.246.2.4 X-Original-Trace: 22 May 2000 19:28:49 -0500, 199.246.2.4 Organization: Kingston Online Services Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:28:53 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.246.3.130 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 959037648 199.246.3.130 (Mon, 22 May 2000 18:20:48 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:20:48 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!CensurBot.NetScum.Dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!news2.kosone.com!news.kosone.com!hermes!dlpulver Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7202 On Sat, 20 May 2000, tnbagwell wrote: > Hey...will it hand Dragonball Z? To a reasonable extent. Planet-busting characaters are always tricky in any situation. I recently tweaked the area effect rules to better simulate massive overkill, and that should go a long way to handling DBZ... ###### From: "Klaus Æ. Mogensen" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net> <39298807.F8F4300B@myriad.net> Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:37:27 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.47.143.159 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 959085235 195.47.143.159 (Tue, 23 May 2000 14:33:55 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:33:55 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7185 "Frank T. Sronce" wrote: > > I really think they just need to bite the bullet and write in an 'Ice > Slide' power, rather than trying to come up with funky ways to similate > it with Entangles and DEX-drains. AFAIK, 5th edition will have a version of Change Environment that can have major effects on characters in the area -- perhaps similar to Cosmetic, Minor, and Major Transform. There's been rumors to that effect, anyway. -- Klaus Æ. Mogensen http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius Exaggeration facilitates comprehension Understatement facilitates credibility ###### From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 23 May 2000 18:57:02 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 44 Message-ID: <8gek9u$1il$1@news.service.uci.edu> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g6t9u$l89$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8gc8tg$kol@edrn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.ps.uci.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!news.service.uci.edu!cascade.ps.uci.edu!jhkim Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7263 Blackberry wrote: >John Kim wrote: >> This may be unesthetic, but the effective granularity of >>HERO is still pretty good. In particular, the common statement >>that HERO doesn't distinguish well among normal humans is >>ridiculous. HERO has a huge variety of stats and options to >>distinguish among humans -- certainly much more than core-rules >>GURPS (although the compendium supplements address this). > [Re: buying extra END] >GURPS would represent that with an advantage like "A Little Extra >Fatigue Capacity", and yes, it would probably be more coarse than >Hero's END stat, but at least it would tell you that the character is >a little harder to fatigue than a normal human, whereas a 22 END may >not tell you that. Hero focuses on numbers telling you the story about >a character; GURPS focuses on words telling you about the character. Eh? GURPS does have a few more descriptively-named advantages, but not very many. The only word-scaled ads are the Appearance levels, I think. By and large, both GURPS and HERO represent their characters by numbers: i.e. ST 13, Lockpicking 14, etc. For reference, the GURPS equivalent advantage from the Compendiums is "Extra Fatigue +1". The GURPS approach is different in that it tells you numerically the *difference* of your character from base (i.e. Extra Fatigue +1), while the HERO approach is to tell you the absolute number (i.e. Endurance 22). The problem with the GURPS approach is that often the adjective is *wrong*. i.e. A character with Extra Fatigue +1 might have less fatigue than the average person. Similarly, a character with "Weak Will" might have a much better Will roll than average. If I were to change things to be more comprehensible, I would put HERO's END stat on the same scale as BODY and other attributes (i.e. 10 is human average, and 20 is "normal" human max). But in this case I think having an absolute number rather than the difference is easier to comprehend. -- John H. Kim | Whatever else is true you jhkim@fnal.gov | Trust your little finger www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can UC Irvine, Cal, USA | Save the world. - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins" ###### From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 23 May 2000 20:10:20 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 38 Message-ID: <8geojc$3ph$1@news.service.uci.edu> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8gc9gr$lsd@edrn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.ps.uci.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!132.239.1.220!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.service.uci.edu!cascade.ps.uci.edu!jhkim Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7267 Blackberry wrote: >"Mr. says... >>While I am no GURPS fan (in general, I think it suffers from many of the >>same things that are flaws in HERO where skills are concerned), at least >>GURPS doesn't have an optimal STR19/DEX14 fighter combo which you can >>buy with plenty left over from 75pts; and GURPS does mages a bit more >>effectively. > >Exactly. In Hero, you either buy to the breakpoints, or you end up >wasting points frivolously. In GURPS, there are reasons to purchase >certain levels of attributes. In other words, every value of an attribute >*is* a breakpoint in GURPS. I'm not saying that one is better, because I >like both; I'm only saying that they differ in approach. While the HERO approach is undoubtably unesthetic, but there is a reason for this. In general, HERO places much less importance on raw stat and more on skill than GURPS. i.e. In GURPS, a IQ 15 character can get for 1/2 a point the same skill that costs a IQ 10 character 8 points. In HERO, an INT 20 character typically pays 3 points for what would cost a INT 10 character 7 points. This is reflected in the costs, though. IQ15 in GURPS costs 60points which IQ20 in HERO costs 10 points. Suppose we ignore the esthetics and look at just the mechanical results for a moment. We start with characters with base IQ/INT in both systems. In GURPS, the player can choose to put in 10pts for +1 to all mental (including social) skills and Will. i.e. +1 IQ. In HERO, the player can choose to put in 5pts for +1 base skill roll in all intellectual skills (not including social or Willpower) i.e. +5 INT. -- John H. Kim | Whatever else is true you jhkim@fnal.gov | Trust your little finger www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can UC Irvine, Cal, USA | Save the world. - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins" ###### Message-ID: <392B985A.8E1B3DCE@clear.net.nz> From: tussock X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g44dc$a2p$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g4is2$pae$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g4q34$klv$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8ga52n$bk1$1@news.asu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: a001-m001-u65.dune.clear.net.nz Organization: CLEAR Net New Zealand http://www.clear.net.nz - Complaints abuse@clear.net.nz Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 07:57:28 CDT X-Trace: sv2-U95wS7WvzJeVcsSXyO9dJMCKH7npKMwbr8wDObaGJ66KFTXetnewCm/V5RMU2NfImiRBVB6qA+ERfe2!nItDgglDmFg9vN5JRC49aXLZ X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 20:52:42 +1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!news.clear.net.nz!a001-m001-u65.dune.clear.net.nz Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7239 Grant Enfield wrote: > >3) An obvious but sometimes missed one is for players to record > > 11+OCV for their maneuvers. Then when it is their turn, they > > roll 3d6 and subtract from that number to get the DCV they hit. > > I really don't know why this isn't presented in the book. The "add eleven" > adds one more step, but the formula results in the expected "what I hit" > rather than the unexpected "knowing what I need to hit my opponent, I did or > didn't hit." Um, wouldn't [OCV-10] +3d6 vs DCV work better? I'll presume both are around 10 in the first place, should result in (3d6 + small integer) calculation for most rolls. Haveing to add _and_ subtract all at once is clearly a bad thing however. 8] -- tussock Sarcasm is the lowest form of humor. 8] ###### From: Blackberry Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 24 May 2000 07:45:37 -0700 Organization: Europa.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8ggpuh$213j@edrn.newsguy.com> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g6t9u$l89$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8gc8tg$kol@edrn.newsguy.com> <8gek9u$1il$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-180.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!edrn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7250 In article <8gek9u$1il$1@news.service.uci.edu>, jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu says... > >[...] >The GURPS approach is different in that it tells you numerically >the *difference* of your character from base (i.e. Extra Fatigue +1), >while the HERO approach is to tell you the absolute number (i.e. >Endurance 22). The problem with the GURPS approach is that often >the adjective is *wrong*. i.e. A character with Extra Fatigue +1 might >have less fatigue than the average person. Similarly, a character with >"Weak Will" might have a much better Will roll than average. >[...] I see your point, and I'm dealing with that in designing racial packages right now. After I've played GURPS a bit, I'll come back and review what I've found to compare and contrast with HERO. -------------------- "It's enough to make you wonder sometimes if you're on the right planet." -- Frankie Goes to Hollywood Brian -- lepus@europa.com -- http://www.europa.com/~lepus ###### From: rboleyn@paradise.net.nz (Rupert Boleyn) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Organization: Babel & Chaos Message-ID: <392c680c.9174532@news.paradise.net.nz> References: <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net> <20000519231443.19779.00000309@ng-cl1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-146-104.tnt2.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 13 Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:39:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 959211768 203.96.152.26 (Thu, 25 May 2000 11:42:48 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:42:48 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!feeder.via.net!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7344 On 20 May 2000 03:14:43 GMT, erolb1@aol.com (Erol K. Bayburt) wrote: >5. In play, and especially in combat, each element is just a little more >complex than the corresponding elements in most other rpgs: Two kinds of 'hit >points' plus Endurance, instead of just one kind of hit point plus maybe >fatigue; two kinds of damage for each damage roll; different kinds of defenses >subtracting from the different kinds of damage; an extra math operation in each >roll to hit (with this operation being a subtraction, which is a bit harder >than addition or comparison). These little bits of extra complexity can add up >to a big bogging down of the game. Bah. It's no worse than Rolemaster, Aftermath or SpaceOpera :) ###### From: rboleyn@paradise.net.nz (Rupert Boleyn) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Organization: Babel & Chaos Message-ID: <392c6330.7930072@news.paradise.net.nz> References: <8g70d3$mjh$1@news.service.uci.edu> <8g72ab$643$3@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-146-104.tnt2.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 14 Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:39:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 959211769 203.96.152.26 (Thu, 25 May 2000 11:42:49 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:42:49 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!unlisys!news.snafu.de!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7337 On 20 May 2000 22:07:07 GMT, SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> wrote: > Nits to pick: 1) high skill aids all HTH combat in GURPS. 2) >With the weapon master advantage those HTH bonuses are applied to >weapons and 3) even without those bonuses, high skill tends to >make attacking body parts an effective tactic as it nullifies the >effects of to hit penalties. It's worth noting that the Weapon Master advantage in GURPS is fairly expensive, supposed to be hard to get, and is rated as cinematic. Therefore in many fantasy games dealing with people in the "normal" range you won't see it. ###### From: rboleyn@paradise.net.nz (Rupert Boleyn) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Organization: Babel & Chaos Message-ID: <392c63af.8057315@news.paradise.net.nz> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8gc9gr$lsd@edrn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-146-104.tnt2.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 35 Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:39:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 959211770 203.96.152.26 (Thu, 25 May 2000 11:42:50 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:42:50 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7347 On 22 May 2000 14:40:43 -0700, Blackberry wrote: >Exactly. In Hero, you either buy to the breakpoints, or you end up wasting >points frivolously. In GURPS, there are reasons to purchase certain levels of >attributes. In other words, every value of an attribute *is* a breakpoint in >GURPS. I'm not saying that one is better, because I like both; I'm only saying >that they differ in approach. There are still breakpoints in GURPS. IQ14 + Magery3 being the big one. However ST11 and ST13 are more valuable than ST12 because they up your thrust damage as well as swing damage. Likewise even combat skill levels are better than odd ones, because defenses are half skill, rounded down. In the several GURPS games I've run I don't recall a single melee skill of 13 that wasn't in the process of being promoted in-game froma 12 to a 14. >Hero's system encourages point twiddling, and figuring out what CON to buy to >give you the best base END, STUN, ED, etc. without wasting too much on CON. In >GURPS, if what you wanted out of CON was more toughness, then you buy >"Toughness". Now, anyone who reads your character sheet can see that you are >"tougher". They don't have to scan your attribute purchases and try to figure >out what the extra CON *means* in your character's context. IME GURPS is just as prone as Hero to that sort of fiddling - all it takes is someone who can ignore the names of ads/disads for their game effect. I've seen character who should have taken toughness (for character concept) who were fit instead, because the player figured +1 to all HT rolls was more use than +1 DR. I'm currently running a fantasy game using GURPS, mainly because it's in print, so players can get a rules if they want, whereas Hero is not. I considered using Hero anyway, but couldn't be bothered whipping up a magic system consistent with my world, and GURPS' magic system, while IMO dry and uninspiring only needed minor tweaks to fit. ###### From: rboleyn@paradise.net.nz (Rupert Boleyn) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Organization: Babel & Chaos Message-ID: <392c688c.9302516@news.paradise.net.nz> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-146-104.tnt2.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 8 Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:41:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 959211890 203.96.152.26 (Thu, 25 May 2000 11:44:50 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:44:50 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!unlisys!news.snafu.de!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7345 On Sat, 20 May 2000 04:11:48 GMT, David Fair wrote: >* Okay, it doesn't do oil slicks or icy patches well. That's about it. As long as they're not spell effects that someone had to buy, just do what every other game does and require Dex checks :) ###### From: neelk@brick.cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 25 May 2000 00:13:21 GMT Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8g2bbm$ir0$1@madmax.keyway.net> <39298807.F8F4300B@myriad.net> Reply-To: neelk@alum.mit.edu X-Trace: WO2/t7dyLGM2vp1XPjzjGm+vMCzrdx5auV/ep1ivCqg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 May 2000 00:13:21 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!neelk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7367 Frank T. Sronce wrote: > > HERO also has little to no built-in support for open-ended powers, > like an Absorbtion with no upper limit or complete immunity to a > particular kind of attack. You can often simulate these, but it'll > probably require some GM intervention. Information-gathering powers are also quite tricky to do. I tried to convert In Nomine to Hero (because I wanted a smooth scaling from humans to mid-upper level celestials) and ran into a lot of problems trying to represent the various angelic powers as Hero powers. Neel ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 25 May 2000 02:13:37 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 11 Message-ID: <8gi28h$hsq$4@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <392c6330.7930072@news.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhdze.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 959220817 18330 149.174.88.251 (25 May 2000 02:13:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 May 2000 02:13:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!CensurBot.NetScum.Dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7320 Rupert Boeylyn wrote: > It's worth noting that the Weapon Master advantage in GURPS is > fairly expensive, supposed to be hard to get, and is rated as > cinematic. Therefore in many fantasy games dealing with people > in the "normal" range you won't see it. Two versions of it. One goes for 20 points the other for 45. The 45 point version costs the same as raising ST from 10 to 14. Damage bonuses for a 15 weapon skill equal on average that of rasing ST from 10 to *fifteen*. Admittedly ST 15's max damage is higher. It's actually pretty cost effective. ###### From: "Klaus Æ. Mogensen" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8gc9gr$lsd@edrn.newsguy.com> <392c63af.8057315@news.paradise.net.nz> Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <3R6X4.89$MO2.2405@news.get2net.dk> Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:54:38 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.213.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 959248831 195.82.213.43 (Thu, 25 May 2000 12:00:31 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:00:31 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7312 Blackberry wrote: > > In GURPS, if what you wanted out of CON was more > toughness, then you buy "Toughness". Now, anyone > who reads your character sheet can see that you are > "tougher". They don't have to scan your attribute purchases > and try to figure out what the extra CON *means* in your > character's context. But in GURPS, somebody who has "Toughness" isn't necessarily tougher than somebody who hasn't, which can be misleading. In Hero, CON is a direct measure og toughness. -- Klaus Æ. Mogensen http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius Exaggeration facilitates comprehension Understatement facilitates credibility ###### From: "S. John Ross" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: GURPS, Hero, or Fuzion? Date: 25 May 2000 14:58:06 GMT Organization: Diogenes Studios Lines: 11 Message-ID: <01bfc662$2051f540$0f6902d0@john---sandra> References: <8g1vfl$hmd$1@madmax.keyway.net> <8gc9gr$lsd@edrn.newsguy.com> <392c63af.8057315@news.paradise.net.nz> <3R6X4.89$MO2.2405@news.get2net.dk> X-Trace: hiram.io.com 959266686 8868 208.2.105.15 (25 May 2000 14:58:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@io.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.giganews.com!solomon.io.com!hiram.io.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7332 | But in GURPS, somebody who has "Toughness" isn't necessarily | tougher than somebody who hasn't, which can be misleading. In | Hero, CON is a direct measure og toughness. In GURPS, somebody who has "Toughness" always has more natural DR than another member of the same species without the advantage. || S. John Ross || Husband · Cook · Writer || In That Order || http://www.io.com/~sjohn/fonts.htm - FONTS FOR GAMERS