From: "Wyrdlyng" <wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net>
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"Thomas Bagwell" <tnbagwell@mail.com> wrote in message
news:8et5kl$bi1$1@news.smartworld.net...

> Bad artwork is annoying, but can be dealt with.  This wasn't "bad" per se,
> although I've seen better.  It was gross and annoying, though.  To the
point
> that I put it back on the shelf without being able to concentrate on the
> parts I wanted to see. <sigh>

Let me pose a general question. Is artwork really that significant a factor
to your purchasing an RPG rulesbook? (You being the general everyone else
you.)

Isn't an rpg rulesbook essentially a technical manual? How many technical
manuals do you purchase based on interior artwork?

Or should it be considered something different?

And once you read through the rules once does the internal art ever really
come into play again? Don't you just flip through the book to get to a
specific rule after that? Do you even notice the artwork again after the
first read?

Is artwork even all that essential to an rpg rulesbook? Or have we started
to slide into the shallow realm of style over substance? (Not calling gamers
shallow, just the other consumers. ;)

Would you skip over an rpg which had excellent mechanics due to poor artwork
or lack of artwork? Should art make that big a difference?

Should there even be artwork in rulesbooks? Why?



Just curious to see people's responses.




--
"It's not very pleasant in my corner of the world at three o'clock
 in the morning. But for people who like cold, wet, ugly bits it is
 something rather special."   -- Eeyore

Wyrdlyng
wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net

######

From: "Wil Hutton" <sinner@keyway.net>
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Actually, I view an rpg rulebook as a window into an imagination - not just
that of the game designer, but into mine as I gain inspiration from the
rules and setting.  The artwork can assist in that.  To relegate it to just
being a mere technical manual takes away much of the romance, imagination
and fantasy.  There are illustrations and even photographs in most textbooks
and manuals (many textbooks will even have cartoons that are relevent to the
subject) and those are (supposedly) chosen and presented in a manner that
accentuates the subject material.  The artwork serves to break up pages and
pages of text and make it easier to get through what could (depending on the
rulebook) a very dry read.  As for the quality of art, even in games that
are just rules sans setting, stick figure drawings just won't do.  While I
don't require artwork to enjoy a game (the artwork in Jovian Chronicles is
fairly sparse compared to other DP9 books),. the artwork there is has to be
of a minimal level for quality to not ruin the rest of the reading.  For a
game like Tribe 8, the artwork is nearly essential - for atmosphere as well
as to convey images that are difficult to just describe as narrative.

Just my $.03...

--
Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/
JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/
The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club Metro Survivor's Homepage and
more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/

######

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From: Brett Evill <b.evill@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>
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Wil Hutton wrote:
> 
> To relegate it to just
> being a mere technical manual takes away much of the romance, imagination
> and fantasy.

There's nothing 'mere' about a good technical handbook. They might not
appeal to you, but I find them as wonderful as Alladin's Cave. There is
more disciplined and detailed imagination in a bridge than in most works
of fantasy.

Regards,


Brett Evill

######

From: Wayne Shaw <shaw@caprica.com>
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Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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>Let me pose a general question. Is artwork really that significant a factor
>to your purchasing an RPG rulesbook? (You being the general everyone else
>you.)
>
>Isn't an rpg rulesbook essentially a technical manual? How many technical
>manuals do you purchase based on interior artwork?

It won't be the primary reason for or against, but it can nudge me,
and I can see if it was actively offputting that it might nudge me
away quite hard.

######

From: xethair@concordant-thought.com (Robert Braddock)
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Oh, no. Art _and_ mechanics. Maybe everyone should just start out flaming ;)

>Let me pose a general question. Is artwork really that significant a factor
>to your purchasing an RPG rulesbook?

And I return with a nice and general answer: Well, it _can_ be that
significant.

If a game has annoying artwork, I'm probably not going to consider it very
much. The game had better be awfully impressive if I am to think about
buying it--and I'm not going to go to any effort to find a reason to buy it.
In fact, if the artwork is very annoying, I'm likely going to be actually
irritated at the game, before I've even considered it's actual game value.

On the other hand, a game could have stunning artwork, that held so much
character and quality, that I'd buy it just for that, regardless of the
system. A book like that is a resource for every game I play, even if i
never actually play it. Talislanta is probably the only game I'd put in this
class.

>Isn't an rpg rulesbook essentially a technical manual? How many technical
>manuals do you purchase based on interior artwork?

Ack, no, an rpg rulebook is not just a technical manual. Why do I say that?
Because the GURPS books are very much like a technical manual. I read GURPS
books in stores, and I just didn't care. Not "didn't care FOR it"--just
didn't care. I even played gurps later, and it was a so-so system, but there
just wasn't anything about gurps to care about. It seems to fight caring
about it. In the future, I'll probably never use gurps just because I have
no reason to. Moral: making the rulebook like a technical manual won't do
anything for you. (not to say the shouldn't have high quality organization
and indices, of course)

Remember: people read technical manuals because they need to, not because
they want to. Don't emulate that in a recreational work.

>And once you read through the rules once does the internal art ever really
>come into play again? Don't you just flip through the book to get to a
>specific rule after that? Do you even notice the artwork again after the
>first read?

Yes, I do notice the artwork again. Often, in fact, if it is outside of
average.

>Is artwork even all that essential to an rpg rulesbook? Or have we started
>to slide into the shallow realm of style over substance? (Not calling gamers

Style can be important. Aren't there whole genres distinguished by style
alone?

>Would you skip over an rpg which had excellent mechanics due to poor artwork
>or lack of artwork? Should art make that big a difference?

Yes, I would. The game makers have a certain obligation to add a little
spice to the reading experience, even if it's as simple as some nice page
headers. Note that I'm not saying there needs to be much of anything. Actual
_bad_ artwork tells me straight out that _quality_ was not even a concern, and
why spend my time on something like that?

>Should there even be artwork in rulesbooks? Why?

Definitely, and for so many reasons. The art does improve the actual reading
experience, just as good font choice does. The art can help players to
mentally organize the book and remember reference points. The art can
inspire readers with aspects of the games. The art can transmit that
touchy-feelly "character" of the game much more efficiently than text.


--
Robert Braddock

######

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On Tue, 9 May 2000, Wyrdlyng wrote:

W>Would you skip over an rpg which had excellent mechanics due to poor artwork
W>or lack of artwork? Should art make that big a difference?

Yes.  I've skipped over things like GURPS Wizards, a product I'd been
waiting for, because the cover art unimpressed me so much.  It's not the
first time, either.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh)
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In article <slrn8hhrfm.7td.xethair@canticle.concordant-thought.com>, stormwarden@bigfoot.com wrote:

>Ack, no, an rpg rulebook is not just a technical manual. Why do I say that?
>Because the GURPS books are very much like a technical manual. I read GURPS
>books in stores, and I just didn't care. Not "didn't care FOR it"--just

I think that that's a failure of execution, though. (I feel the same way 
about most, though not all, GURPS prose.) Gaming books _are_ technical 
manuals - they're the instructions for creating games. This means that 
they should evoke their setting and tone as well as covering the 
numbers.


-- 
Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
 that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein

######

From: "Wil Hutton" <sinner@keyway.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Well, "mere" in comparison to being an rpg book.  I happen to like rpg books
better than tech manuals.  No offense intended ^_^


--
Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/
JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/
The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club  Metro Survivor's Homepage and
more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/

"Brett Evill" <b.evill@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> wrote in message
news:3918F228.6C09@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au...
> Wil Hutton wrote:
> >
> > To relegate it to just
> > being a mere technical manual takes away much of the romance,
imagination
> > and fantasy.
>
> There's nothing 'mere' about a good technical handbook. They might not
> appeal to you, but I find them as wonderful as Alladin's Cave. There is
> more disciplined and detailed imagination in a bridge than in most works
> of fantasy.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Brett Evill

######

From: "Frank T. Sronce" <fsronce@myriad.net>
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Ann Dupuis wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, for GURPS products, art is sometimes more than mere fluff
> -- it's actually off-putting. The GURPS Wizards cover falls into that
> category for me. (And no, it made *no* difference to me that the artist
> is a woman. I didn't find that cover either appealing or in good taste.)
> 

	Is that a Rowena print?  It looks like her style, but I haven't
actually looked at the book itself.  

Kiz

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
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In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0005100813560.4615-100000@lists.wirebird.com>,
"Karen J. Cravens" <silver+news@phoenyx.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 9 May 2000, Wyrdlyng wrote:
> 
> W>Would you skip over an rpg which had excellent mechanics due to poor artwork
> W>or lack of artwork? Should art make that big a difference?
> 
> Yes.  I've skipped over things like GURPS Wizards, a product I'd been
> waiting for, because the cover art unimpressed me so much.  It's not the
> first time, either.

I have never been that dimwitted.  CONTENT is what matters.  For GURPS
products, TEXT is content.  Art is almost always mere fluff and should be
considered as such.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

Message-ID: <39199B02.D60A0E89@fudgerpg.com>
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"Bryan J. Maloney" wrote:
> 
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0005100813560.4615-100000@lists.wirebird.com>,
> "Karen J. Cravens" <silver+news@phoenyx.net> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 9 May 2000, Wyrdlyng wrote:
> >
> > W>Would you skip over an rpg which had excellent mechanics due to poor artwork
> > W>or lack of artwork? Should art make that big a difference?
> >
> > Yes.  I've skipped over things like GURPS Wizards, a product I'd been
> > waiting for, because the cover art unimpressed me so much.  It's not the
> > first time, either.
> 
> I have never been that dimwitted.  CONTENT is what matters.  For GURPS
> products, TEXT is content.  Art is almost always mere fluff and should be
> considered as such.

Unfortunately, for GURPS products, art is sometimes more than mere fluff
-- it's actually off-putting. The GURPS Wizards cover falls into that
category for me. (And no, it made *no* difference to me that the artist
is a woman. I didn't find that cover either appealing or in good taste.)

I'm currently re-doing the maps for GURPS Old West, and am glad I'm a
*much* better cartographer now than I was 10 years ago when the first
versions of the maps hit print in that book. Looking at the other art in
that book,  I'm also very glad that most if not all of the art will be
replaced, too. :-)

In general, the GURPS artwork is improving (so are their prices to
artists). I must admit having been appalled by some of the art in years
past. (That hasn't stopped me from packing half a bookcase with GURPS
stuff, but a lot of the GURPS materials I have were in "trade" for work
I've done for SJGames.) There are very few GURPS books I appreciate as
aesthetic pieces, although I think that's improving immensely now (GURPS
Discworld is a lovely book.)

-- 
Best regards,

Ann Dupuis (ghostgames@fudgerpg.com)
Grey Ghost Press, Inc. (http://www.fudgerpg.com)
"Take that, you blasted game!" - Fourth most common use of the Computer
Control Cybernetic Enhancement. (From the "Gatecrasher" roleplaying
game; http://www.fudgerpg.com/gtcrasher)

######

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On Wed, 10 May 2000, Bryan J. Maloney wrote:

BJM>I have never been that dimwitted.  CONTENT is what matters.  For GURPS
BJM>products, TEXT is content.  Art is almost always mere fluff and should be
BJM>considered as such.

Thanks for the insult.  Was it really necessary?

Art can't make me buy books.  Art, especially cover art, can make me *not*
buy books, though... call it "dimwitted" if you must, but I just can't get
sufficiently excited about the content of *any* gamebook to overcome the
repulsion factor of having it lying around looking ugly/annoying/whatever.

I dunno.  I just don't find the notion of voting with my dollars to be all
that dimwitted.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

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On Wed, 10 May 2000, Ann Dupuis wrote:

AD>In general, the GURPS artwork is improving (so are their prices to
AD>artists). I must admit having been appalled by some of the art in years
AD>past. (That hasn't stopped me from packing half a bookcase with GURPS
AD>stuff, but a lot of the GURPS materials I have were in "trade" for work
AD>I've done for SJGames.) There are very few GURPS books I appreciate as
AD>aesthetic pieces, although I think that's improving immensely now (GURPS
AD>Discworld is a lovely book.)

Actually, I thought the icon-on-black look during the lean years was a
really, really good thing.  Maybe that was my Traveller origin showing,
but I thought it was slick, classy, and a real standout, and was actually
kind of disappointed with they got enough money to do plain old picture
covers again.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

From: nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Wyrdlyng wrote:

<< Would you skip over an rpg which had excellent mechanics due to poor artwork
or lack of artwork? Should art make that big a difference? >>

If I pick up an RPG I know nothing about and the art isn't to my liking, I'll
put it back on the shelf without knowing what the mechanics are.

That might be unfair, but I only have so much money and time at my disposal and
if one part of the product is not to my liking, I might find others not to my
tastes as well.


Steve Miller
Writer of Stuff

And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right.
I've been talking to Jesus all my life.
                             --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me"

######

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From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
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Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: 11 May 2000 02:00:10 +0200
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bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) writes:

> In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0005100813560.4615-100000@lists.wirebird.com>,
> "Karen J. Cravens" <silver+news@phoenyx.net> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 9 May 2000, Wyrdlyng wrote:
> >
> > W>Would you skip over an rpg which had excellent mechanics due to poor artwork
> > W>or lack of artwork? Should art make that big a difference?
> >
> > Yes.  I've skipped over things like GURPS Wizards, a product I'd been
> > waiting for, because the cover art unimpressed me so much.  It's not the
> > first time, either.
>
> I have never been that dimwitted.  CONTENT is what matters.  For GURPS
> products, TEXT is content.

Content is what matters. And content is not just text. It includes
also the tables, maps, artwork, etc.

IMHO, a book is an attempt of the author(s) to tell something to the
reader(s), such as their idea of an great game. All of above content
types have their expressive abilities. A good author uses the right
combination of these to get the point(s) he wants to make get across.


>  Art is almost always mere fluff and should be
> considered as such.

Lots of authors (or is it the publishers?) seem to see art as fluff.

That leads to the most annoying type of book: one author writes a
text, an other gets commissioned a bit of art, the art is then
scattered into the text to "loosen it up".

_Such_ artwork is just a waste of time/money of the publisher, and
simply a distraction of the readers concentration. But that is because
it is part of an badly designed book, not because is is artwork.


But a good book has the art as integral part of what the author is
telling the reader, chosen and placed with the same craft as the words
of the text, then when it is the best way to get a point acress ("a
picture can say more than 1000 words").

Example: Having a bunch of stats of, say, a robot is OK, a picture of
how the inventor imagined it to look strikes home to the readers
immagination, how it will act in the game, far faster and intense.
(Take the picture of Mark IV in Acute Paranoia, makes the point that
it does not need "protecting" far more intense than all the stats)

Just think of how often you, in trying to describe something
complicated to someone, have wished to have the ability to mentally
project an image to them. That is when a author should include a
picture, and at that point in the narrative.


Back to the original question: I regard bad/unfitting artwork as a
good sign of an shoddy thrown togehter for a cheap sell product. So
I will not buy it.


P.S. the same problem exists with non-RPG books, also multimedia CDs
and websites, also in university lectures and office presentations.


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic
Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface -
  or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)?

######

From: "John Peralta" <johnnype@earthlink.net>
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> Let me pose a general question. Is artwork really that significant a
factor
> to your purchasing an RPG rulesbook?

YES! Artwork provides much of the mental images I use to make the game
enjoyable.

I realize that many game companies don't have the resources to employ a
decent art staff. Art on the whole is expensive; as it should be given the
talent some artists have. The problem is when game developers think that
they can just get by on bad art. BAD MOVE! too bad this is more common than
not.

On the other hand, I would not buy a game based solely on the art although I
might be tempted. Take for example 7th Sea. I came very close to buying the
game based on the color faction templates in the PHB, but after reviewing
the content (or lack of it I should say) I decided against it.

CCG's are another example of why art is important. Compare the initial sets
of Magic to the more recent ones and you will see a big improvement in the
quality of the art. I go as far as using CCG art to augment my RPG games by
method of visualization. Take that to the next level with games like
Netrunner. Although the act of netrunning is often ignored in most cyberpunk
games I have used my Netrunner cards to great effect in describing what the
net is like.

 > And once you read through the rules once does the internal art ever
really
> come into play again? Don't you just flip through the book to get to a
> specific rule after that? Do you even notice the artwork again after the
> first read?

I ALWAYS look at the art and continue to enjoy it long after the initial
purchase. Yes, in the middle of a battle you are not going to pause to enjoy
the art but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be there.

 > Would you skip over an rpg which had excellent mechanics due to poor
artwork
> or lack of artwork? Should art make that big a difference?

Champions is the perfect example of a game I skiped over due to bad artwork.
Here is a game that should have some of the best art out there given its
"comic book" background, and yet they use art that seems taken out of a
1970's comic book. COME ON GUYS, what are you thinking? The rule system is
great but the art bites.

Games with good artwork:
Heavy Gear, Tribe 8, Jovian Cronicles, Chronopia, Warhammer, Warhammer 40K,
Alternity
Many card games, my favorites: Middle earth: the Wizards, Doomtown, Heresy:
Kingdom Come, Netrunner

Games with inconsistent artwork:
(most of them)
D&D, All World of Darkness, Aberrant, Trinity, Shadowrun, L5R RPG
Many CCG's, I nominate: Legend of the Five Rings, Legends of the Burning
Sands,

Games with bad artwork:
Call of Cthulhu, Champions, Babylon 5


In closing I would like to ask game companies not to ignore the art in their
games. Bad art takes a lot away from the enjoyment of it.

John Peralta

######

From: stornc@aol.com (StornC)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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>>I have never been that dimwitted.  CONTENT is what matters.  For GURPS
products, TEXT is content.  Art is almost always mere fluff and should be
considered as such.<<<

   Being an artist, and a newly contracted SJ games artist, I have to
respectfully disagree.
   Art is part & parcel of the CONTENT.  It is an interpetation of the words
within the book to be sure, but it is another avenue to convey story,
information and mood.
   Example:  I can spend paragraphs talking about the differences between 5 or
6 races of elves or orcs.  Yet I can group 5 or 6 of those individuals in one
illustration and give you a ton of information that you might not even be aware
you are absorbing.
    Orc 1 is obviously arabic culture based, scimitar and all, Orc 2 is a
woodland dweller, complete with camoflauge.  Orc 3 is dark skinned, coming from
the darkest jungles, Orc 4 is from winter climes, having extra hair and funky
eye protection (which would be weird for most fantasy worlds).  And so on. 
This is all available at a glance, as well as a visual cue on "this is where
the racial info on orcs is located in the rule book".

   Lastly, artwork can inspire adventure seeds, mood and actual character
ideas.  I did the cover for the Ultimate Martial Artist.  The writer liked my
protagonist so much that he asked me what I was thinking about when I drew it. 
After a discussion, the character came out in the follow up book, Watchers of
the Dragon.
   I was inspired by those great little cartoons in the margins of the DMs
guide showing an intrepid party venturing further and further into the depths
of the underground.

    I assume that by your e-mail address that you are in Ithaca.  Well, I grew
up in Ithaca, love it with all my heart.  Ithaca is a pretty strong artist
community.  I hope it and I can change your mind on this subject.

--storn

######

From: stornc@aol.com (StornC)
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Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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>>Champions is the perfect example of a game I skiped over due to bad artwork.
Here is a game that should have some of the best art out there given its
"comic book" background, and yet they use art that seems taken out of a
1970's comic book. COME ON GUYS, what are you thinking? The rule system is
great but the art bites.<<

    What can I say.  I'm responsible for a lot, A LOT! of bad artwork.  But I
was young.  Hopefully, I've improved.  But I loved doing the Champions stuff
(which I was involved with for Normals Unbound to Watchers of the Dragon).
    I look back and yes, it is bad.  But I can also see where I was heading. 
And that I improved.
    See for yourself.  Check out my webpage:  http://www.solaria.net/stornc

    However, somethings come down to style.  I can't stand the gothic,
grotesque, out of proportion artwork of Warhammer (in any of its myriad
offshoots).  Some of Alternity (which I'm running at the moment) has great
artwork.  But some of it is downright criminally bad.

--storn

--storn

######

From: George W. Harris <gharrus@mundsprung.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 18:17:42 -0400
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On Wed, 10 May 2000 13:13:26 -0400, bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J.
Maloney) wrote:

:In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0005100813560.4615-100000@lists.wirebird.com>,
:"Karen J. Cravens" <silver+news@phoenyx.net> wrote:
:
:> On Tue, 9 May 2000, Wyrdlyng wrote:
:> 
:> W>Would you skip over an rpg which had excellent mechanics due to poor artwork
:> W>or lack of artwork? Should art make that big a difference?
:> 
:> Yes.  I've skipped over things like GURPS Wizards, a product I'd been
:> waiting for, because the cover art unimpressed me so much.  It's not the
:> first time, either.
:
:I have never been that dimwitted.  

	Sure you have.  Just two days ago you 
started a thread cross-posted to *five* newsgroups 
and didn't set follow-ups.  That's about as dim-
witted as one could get.

-- 
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* fifty states seem a little suspicious?

George W. Harris  For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'

######

From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: 10 May 2000 22:30:34 GMT
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Bruce Baugh <bruce-baugh@sff.net> wrote:
>stormwarden@bigfoot.com wrote:
>> Ack, no, an rpg rulebook is not just a technical manual. Why do I say 
>> that?  Because the GURPS books are very much like a technical manual. 
>> I read GURPS books in stores, and I just didn't care. 
>
>I think that that's a failure of execution, though. (I feel the same way 
>about most, though not all, GURPS prose.) Gaming books _are_ technical 
>manuals - they're the instructions for creating games. This means that 
>they should evoke their setting and tone as well as covering the 
>numbers.

	I tend to agree in general -- but how exactly is the GURPS 
rulebook supposed to evoke setting and tone?  

-*-*-*-

	For my two cents:  Personally, I view this much as I view 
books.  I don't particularly look for illustrated books, and I find 
pure prose (like, say, Gene Wolfe's _Shadow of the Torturer_) 
perfectly capable of evoking setting and tone.  There are cases 
where illustrations can be a good and integral part of the work, 
however.  

	In RPG's, there are perhaps a handful of cases I can think 
of illustrations working with them.  _Skyrealms of Jorune_ would be 
one -- where the illustrations were used with the text to show 
the alien world.  _Talislanta_ is a similar case.  I can't think 
of a third offhand.  

	Good layout and lack of poor illustrations help immensely 
in my mind.  An example for me would be _Ars Magica_.  Personally, 
I preferred the 1st edition -- whose only illustrations were 
medieval woodcuts (I think), compared to the 2nd and 3rd edition 
which added in modern fantasy drawings.  

	In my opinion, for the vast majority of RPG books the 
illustrations are only filler which can at best maintain the feel 
of the book and at worst detract from it.  Of course, I'm probably 
not the majority market.  Putting a scantily-clad babe on the cover 
may help sales more than anything else.  


-- 
       John H. Kim     | Whatever else is true you
     jhkim@fnal.gov    | Trust your little finger
 www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can
  UC Irvine, Cal, USA  | Save the world.   - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins"

######

From: "Wyrdlyng" <wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net>
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"StornC" <stornc@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000510174703.16844.00002459@ng-fz1.aol.com...

<Storn's intelligent response snipped>

This is what I was looking for. Not "yeah, it'll turn me off" but WHY art
makes a difference to people. This is what I really want to hear about.






--
"We can't all, and some of us don't. That's all there is to it."
 -- Eeyore

Wyrdlyng
wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net

######

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"John Peralta" <johnnype@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:pOjS4.48505$g4.1329259@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

> YES! Artwork provides much of the mental images I use to make the game
> enjoyable.

Fair enough.

> I realize that many game companies don't have the resources to employ a
> decent art staff. Art on the whole is expensive; as it should be given the
> talent some artists have. The problem is when game developers think that
> they can just get by on bad art. BAD MOVE! too bad this is more common
than
> not.

So then another question for discussion: if a company has a very limited art
budget for their upcoming book, should they a) have minimal art (meaning
less than most "regular" minimal art rpgs) or b) use newer and less polished
talent which willwork for less?


> Games with bad artwork:
> Call of Cthulhu, Champions, Babylon 5

CoC may have bad artwork but it would be hard to label it a bad RPG. (No,
this is not open for debate or flames. Stick to one debate at a time. ;)





--
"It's not very pleasant in my corner of the world at three o'clock
 in the morning. But for people who like cold, wet, ugly bits it is
 something rather special."   -- Eeyore

Wyrdlyng
wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net

######

From: "Wyrdlyng" <wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net>
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Okay, I've got some good responses here so let me pose another question.

Many consider the artwork in rulesbooks to be a window into the gameworld or
to at least help evoke imagery to associate with the game. Some have said
that prose is not enough to evoke the feel of a world but aren't novels
essentially nothing more than textual (is that actually a word?) description
of a fictional world and they feature usually only one picture (the cover).
Why is text enough to describe a world in a novel but not enough in an rpg?*


*-I'm not comparing novels to rpg books directly but using the fact that
novels usually describe parts of the world with limited prose--the rest
focusing on the plot and the characters--and thus the focused world
description could be comparable to what you find in rpg rulesbook world
descriptions. Talking about the core rulesbook not the detailed setting
supplements.

As Storn mentioned, artwork can clarify easily what may take many words but
it need be why couldn't the words be enough?





--
"Laughing at the window. Thought I saw your face
Only cloudy images on my window pane.
And all I hear is rain and things I tried to say."
 -- Concrete Blonde, Rain

Wyrdlyng
wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net

######

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Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Very well put Storn, I had intended to stay out of this thread, but felt
obliged to post just recently. I wish I had written this...:-) 

StornC <stornc@aol.com> wrote in article
<20000510174703.16844.00002459@ng-fz1.aol.com>...
> >>I have never been that dimwitted.  CONTENT is what matters.  For GURPS
> products, TEXT is content.  Art is almost always mere fluff and should be
> considered as such.<<<
> 
>    Being an artist, and a newly contracted SJ games artist, I have to
> respectfully disagree.
>    Art is part & parcel of the CONTENT.  It is an interpetation of the
words
> within the book to be sure, but it is another avenue to convey story,
> information and mood.
>    Example:  I can spend paragraphs talking about the differences between
5 or
> 6 races of elves or orcs.  Yet I can group 5 or 6 of those individuals in
one
> illustration and give you a ton of information that you might not even be
aware
> you are absorbing.
>     Orc 1 is obviously arabic culture based, scimitar and all, Orc 2 is a
> woodland dweller, complete with camoflauge.  Orc 3 is dark skinned,
coming from
> the darkest jungles, Orc 4 is from winter climes, having extra hair and
funky
> eye protection (which would be weird for most fantasy worlds).  And so
on. 
> This is all available at a glance, as well as a visual cue on "this is
where
> the racial info on orcs is located in the rule book".
> 
>    Lastly, artwork can inspire adventure seeds, mood and actual character
> ideas.  I did the cover for the Ultimate Martial Artist.  The writer
liked my
> protagonist so much that he asked me what I was thinking about when I
drew it. 
> After a discussion, the character came out in the follow up book,
Watchers of
> the Dragon.
>    I was inspired by those great little cartoons in the margins of the
DMs
> guide showing an intrepid party venturing further and further into the
depths
> of the underground.
> 
>     I assume that by your e-mail address that you are in Ithaca.  Well, I
grew
> up in Ithaca, love it with all my heart.  Ithaca is a pretty strong
artist
> community.  I hope it and I can change your mind on this subject.
> 
> --storn
> 

######

From: "Wyrdlyng" <wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net>
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"Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
news:6u8zxi2bxx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...

> Content is what matters. And content is not just text. It includes
> also the tables, maps, artwork, etc.
>
> IMHO, a book is an attempt of the author(s) to tell something to the
> reader(s), such as their idea of an great game. All of above content
> types have their expressive abilities. A good author uses the right
> combination of these to get the point(s) he wants to make get across.

> That leads to the most annoying type of book: one author writes a
> text, an other gets commissioned a bit of art, the art is then
> scattered into the text to "loosen it up".
>
> _Such_ artwork is just a waste of time/money of the publisher, and
> simply a distraction of the readers concentration. But that is because
> it is part of an badly designed book, not because is is artwork.


These are some good points, but MOST rpgs are like this. A good
writer/artist hybrid in the comic book industry is rare enough but I have
yet to see one in the rpg industry. As far as I know, all rpg books are
written by one person with the artwork being comissioned from several
artists. The most common scenario is the writer working from a general
outline of the book and the artists either being given a similar outline
sketch or asked for genre art. Otherwise, the book would come out on
computergame-type schedules ("sometime in the next 18 months...or so..."). I
know there are professionals out there so please correct me if I'm working
off a false assumption.


> Back to the original question: I regard bad/unfitting artwork as a
> good sign of an shoddy thrown togehter for a cheap sell product. So
> I will not buy it.

But is it enough to dismiss a work which thus remains essentially unseen?
Why is the quality of the artwork an instant means of judging the quality of
the writing? Isn't that truly judging a book by its cover?





--
"We can't all, and some of us don't. That's all there is to it."
 -- Eeyore

Wyrdlyng
wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net

######

From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <20000510174703.16844.00002459@ng-fz1.aol.com>, stornc@aol.com (StornC) wrote:

>   Art is part & parcel of the CONTENT.  It is an interpetation of the words
>within the book to be sure, but it is another avenue to convey story,
>information and mood.

Precisely. Good art enhances and complements the text in describing the 
setting, suggesting possibilities, evoking mood, and so on. Bad art in 
gaming is whatever, regardless of its technical merits, works against or 
simply without relationship to the text.


-- 
Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
 that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein

######

From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 02:21:48 GMT
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In article <8fcnua$4fa$1@news.service.uci.edu>, jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim) wrote:

>        I tend to agree in general -- but how exactly is the GURPS 
>rulebook supposed to evoke setting and tone?  

Based on the subject of the particular book.


-- 
Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
 that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein

######

From: "Wil Hutton" <sinner@keyway.net>
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"Wyrdlyng" <wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:xUlS4.8971$V35.4263734@news4.mia...

> As Storn mentioned, artwork can clarify easily what may take many words
but
> it need be why couldn't the words be enough?

I think you pegged it earlier by saying that rpgs are not novels.  Not to
trivialize the talents of game designers, but many of them are simply not
fiction authors and a select few should just stick to rules.  Plus, an rpg
has to cover a lot more ground than a novel, and oftentimes more information
has to be revealed about a gameworld to make it playable within 50-100 pages
than an entire 300 page novel *really* reveals about it's world.  The
illustrations in an rpg can assist in this greatly.  Otherwise I agree that
rpgs don't need illustrations any more than novels, but I think that they
are very nice.  It would be extremely difficult for me to envision, say, a
Pathfinder exo-armor or one of the spaceships from Jovian Chronicles without
a good illustration.

--
Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/
JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/
The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club Metro Survivor's Homepage and
more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/

######

From: "Wil Hutton" <sinner@keyway.net>
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"Wyrdlyng" <wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:4vnS4.9084$V35.4387400@news4.mia...
>As far as I know, all rpg books are
> written by one person with the artwork being comissioned from several
> artists. The most common scenario is the writer working from a general
> outline of the book and the artists either being given a similar outline
> sketch or asked for genre art. Otherwise, the book would come out on
> computergame-type schedules ("sometime in the next 18 months...or so...").
I
> know there are professionals out there so please correct me if I'm working
> off a false assumption.

Well, Dream Pod 9's art is done for the most part by one artist (Ghislaine
Barbaine) who works closely with the editors and authors.  There are some
instances where NPC portraits don't look exactly like the description, but
it's not really that bad.  I'm also pretty sure he works from the final
manuscript and not the outline - but this is because many of the books have
a lot of input from the authors (frex, in Word From the North the authors
knew what had to happen in the storyline, but it was up to them to decide
*how* these things happened).  This makes it hard to have the artist create
the art from just the outline.


--
Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/
JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/
The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club Metro Survivor's Homepage and
more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/

######

From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Wyrdlyng wrote:
>Let me pose a general question. Is artwork really that significant a factor
>to your purchasing an RPG rulesbook? (You being the general everyone else
>you.)

Artwork is a significant factor to me. First, because art is cool. Second,
because it is really excellent example of how much effort went into a product
(if the company in question didn't even bother to get good art, it's an
indication that not a lot of effort was put into making the product a success).
And third...

>Isn't an rpg rulesbook essentially a technical manual? How many technical
>manuals do you purchase based on interior artwork?

And third because your average RPG book is *not* just a technical manual.
Certainly the core rules of GURPS, CORPS, or even FUDGE are technical manuals
-- but these type of setting-less engines are far and few between, and even
they are supported by a plethora of products which then go on to describe
settings.

Why is artwork important in the discussion of game settings? Because a picture
is worth a thousand words. I gain information about the Egyptians, for example,
by looking at a sampling of heiroglyphics that cannot be adequately
communicated through words. Similarly, I gain a very good understanding of what
the world of Tribe 8 is like through the pictures by Ghislain Barbe found in
the Tribe 8 books. Raven Mimura's artwork for John Tynes' Puppetland is another
good example of how art can be a significant addition to a product. Sure,
Tynes' Puppetland is really good all by itself. But Raven's artwork makes it
better.

>And once you read through the rules once does the internal art ever really
>come into play again? Don't you just flip through the book to get to a
>specific rule after that? Do you even notice the artwork again after the
>first read?

Depends on the effectiveness and quality of the artwork. Sometiimes the art is
nothing more than an effective way of breaking up the text in order to make it
an easier read... at other times, the artwork serves as a valuable reference
resource in and of itself.

Justin Bacon
triad@prairie.lakes.com

######

From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6191

Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
>I have never been that dimwitted.  CONTENT is what matters.  For GURPS
>products, TEXT is content.  Art is almost always mere fluff and should be
>considered as such.

And since you so polite in stating your opinion, Moron Boy, I'm sure Karen has
been completely swayed by your appeal to rational reasoning.

Justin Bacon
triad@prairie.lakes.com

(A healthy dose of Irony has been injected into this post. It's good for your
teeth. Really. I swear. Would this face lie to you?)

######

From: PMCHUCK@pbtcomm.net (Chuck (aka. WormSpeaker))
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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(I'm running on bad memory here so forgive)
If you have ever taken one Dragon lance novel (300 pages) and
compaired it to one dragonlance suppliment (90 pages) you will note
that the actual ammount of total back ground that the novel covers
compaired to the total ammount of info the supplement covers and you
will see that pictures can definetly help convey thoughts that a great
deal of text can't.
One example: It takes like 30 pages (IIRC) in the first dragonlance
book to describe the tree village and one picture can show it all with
richer more full detail. The books went in to great detail about how
the bar looked, but never said what color the stained glass window
was.


Later,

Chuck (aka. WormSpeaker)

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
BADLANDS and JARPS Free RPG's on the
     WormSpeakers page.

Http:/www.geocities.com/wormspeaker/
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

######

From: PMCHUCK@pbtcomm.net (Chuck (aka. WormSpeaker))
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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The number one thing i use art for in books is as a 'book mark'. When
flipping through a book, the human mind will corrilate with a picrure
faster than a chapter number. And i quite enjoy the art from many RPG
books. (such as Cyberpunk and the Werewolf book from WW. I some times
get great ideas for scenes and adventures just from looking at some of
the pictures.)

Later,

Chuck (aka. WormSpeaker)

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
BADLANDS and JARPS Free RPG's on the
     WormSpeakers page.

Http:/www.geocities.com/wormspeaker/
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

######

From: pj_fitz@hotmail.com (Fitz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 05:05:42 GMT
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On 10 May 2000 21:52:28 GMT, stornc@aol.com (StornC) wrote:

>    However, somethings come down to style.  I can't stand the gothic,
>grotesque, out of proportion artwork of Warhammer (in any of its myriad
>offshoots).  Some of Alternity (which I'm running at the moment) has great
>artwork.  But some of it is downright criminally bad.

I'd have to agree with you about Warhammer art, most of it is pretty
grotesque (and I don't mean that in a *good* way).

I'm still waiting for a RPG illustrated by Brian Froud. I'd buy that
even if the mechanics sucked dead donkeys' scrotums.

Fitz
http://usa.spis.co.nz/fitz

######

Message-ID: <391A9B8E.8A63B6AA@fudgerpg.com>
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Wyrdlyng wrote:
> So then another question for discussion: if a company has a very limited art
> budget for their upcoming book, should they a) have minimal art (meaning
> less than most "regular" minimal art rpgs) or b) use newer and less polished
> talent which willwork for less?

Either a) or a careful combination of a) and b).

I'll add a c) in cases where the subject material is suitable: public
domain art available from "clip art" services such as arttoday.com.

But I think most companies with limited art budgets would be better off
making sure the layout is an attractive, clean design than trying to
"break up the text" with art on every 2-page spread (or on every page as
some companies try to do). A good layout can make up for a lack of art
-- but it can't entirely make up for the inclusion of "bad" art.

-- 
Best regards,

Ann Dupuis (ghostgames@fudgerpg.com)
Grey Ghost Press, Inc. (http://www.fudgerpg.com)
"Take that, you blasted game!" - Fourth most common use of the Computer
Control Cybernetic Enhancement. (From the "Gatecrasher" roleplaying
game; http://www.fudgerpg.com/gtcrasher)

######

From: ccamfield@sympatico.ca (Chris Camfield)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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On Wed, 10 May 2000 12:44:12 -0400, "Frank T. Sronce"
<fsronce@myriad.net> wrote:

>Ann Dupuis wrote:
>> 
>> Unfortunately, for GURPS products, art is sometimes more than mere fluff
>> -- it's actually off-putting. The GURPS Wizards cover falls into that
>> category for me. (And no, it made *no* difference to me that the artist
>> is a woman. I didn't find that cover either appealing or in good taste.)
>> 
>
>	Is that a Rowena print?  It looks like her style, but I haven't
>actually looked at the book itself.  

That's what the SJG website says - I wanted to see what the cover
looked like for myself...

CC

######

From: ccamfield@sympatico.ca (Chris Camfield)
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Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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On Thu, 11 May 2000 05:05:42 GMT, pj_fitz@hotmail.com (Fitz) wrote:

>On 10 May 2000 21:52:28 GMT, stornc@aol.com (StornC) wrote:
>
>>    However, somethings come down to style.  I can't stand the gothic,
>>grotesque, out of proportion artwork of Warhammer (in any of its myriad
>>offshoots).  Some of Alternity (which I'm running at the moment) has great
>>artwork.  But some of it is downright criminally bad.
>
>I'd have to agree with you about Warhammer art, most of it is pretty
>grotesque (and I don't mean that in a *good* way).
>
>I'm still waiting for a RPG illustrated by Brian Froud. I'd buy that
>even if the mechanics sucked dead donkeys' scrotums.

Mm... WW should have tried to get him to do illustrations for
Changeling.  That's the game that would seem most natural for him to
illustrate.

Chris

######

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
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On Wed, 10 May 2000, Ann Dupuis wrote:

> In general, the GURPS artwork is improving (so are their prices to
> artists). I must admit having been appalled by some of the art in years
> past. (That hasn't stopped me from packing half a bookcase with GURPS
> stuff, but a lot of the GURPS materials I have were in "trade" for work
> I've done for SJGames.) There are very few GURPS books I appreciate as
> aesthetic pieces, although I think that's improving immensely now (GURPS
> Discworld is a lovely book.)

GURPS Goblins!

Matt

######

From: "Frank T. Sronce" <fsronce@myriad.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Wyrdlyng wrote:
> 
> CoC may have bad artwork but it would be hard to label it a bad RPG. (No,
> this is not open for debate or flames. Stick to one debate at a time. ;)
> 
> Wyrdlyng
> wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net


	Actually, the quality of the CoC artwork has varied immensely from one
product and/or edition to another. I've got a couple editions of the
Dreamlands book, and I gotta say that one of them has _very_ nice
artwork, and the other has... crappy artwork (the actual quality is
variable within the books too, of course; even the 'crappy' edition has
some nice pieces).  I suspect that what happened may have been that
someone decided that every critter _needed_ a corresponding
illustration... and when they ran short on time/money, they went with
some very poor quality, quickly done pics to fill in for the creatures
that hadn't been illustrated yet.
	Personally, I feel that if you can't get a nice illustration,
particularly for something as important as what some monster actually
_looks_ like, just replace the picture with a little extra descriptive
text and let the players use their imagination.  
	GM: "And it looks like this!" [waves illustration at players]
	Players: "You're kidding."
	GM: "Well, it looks like that except that it's big and strong instead
of small and shrivelled looking, and impressive and scary instead of
kind of goofy looking."

Kiz

######

From: stornc@aol.com (StornC)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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>Very well put Storn, I had intended to stay out of this thread, but felt
>obliged to post just recently. I wish I had written this...:-) 

    Thank you to both you and the others who thought I was on to something. 
This is a subject that I think way too much about.  But it is part of my
profession and probably at this point, hardwired into my personality.
 
    To, I think, Bruce, who mentioned bad art not giving any support to the
writing.  This is true in a very general way.  But sometimes, an artist will
have a piece of artwork in a RPG that is not well done or executed, but still
gets the idea across.
   I think we can all agree that we want to see "good" art in RPGs.  Although,
it would be tough to agree on what is "good" art.  
   But deadlines, artist availability, money being paid out, etc do affect the
art job for a particular book greatly.

    And as stated before, I did a lot of bad artwork for Champions.  But it did
give me a leg up and into the field.  Where I improved at a fairly regular
clip.  There have always been bottom tiered products (Independents in the comic
industry) that are the breeding grounds for the next generation.
    But in even the worst pictures I ever produced, I tried my best.  I tried
to tell a story and support the text.
    Industry note:  Many times, artists do not have access to the writing due
to production schedules.  Artists are working on the artwork at the same time
writers are finishing the actual book.  What we get is anywhere from a sentence
to a paragraph of the illo description.
    What I love about working with FASA is that they send photocopied pages of
the actual page layout, so not only do you get the words, but where the illo is
going on the page.  Allowing you to push the viewer's eye in the direction you
want it to go... like to the most important paragraph or to turn the page.

    Wow!  I've babbled on much longer than I expected.  Sorry about that.

--storn

######

From: stornc@aol.com (StornC)
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Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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>I'm still waiting for a RPG illustrated by Brian Froud. I'd buy that
>even if the mechanics sucked dead donkeys' scrotums.

    I'm not aware of the name connected to artwork.  Is there any place you can
check out Brian Froud's work on the net?

--storn

######

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>> I realize that many game companies don't have the resources to employ a
>> decent art staff. Art on the whole is expensive; as it should be given the
>> talent some artists have. The problem is when game developers think that
>> they can just get by on bad art. BAD MOVE! too bad this is more common
>than
>> not.
>
>So then another question for discussion: if a company has a very limited art
>budget for their upcoming book, should they a) have minimal art (meaning
>less than most "regular" minimal art rpgs) or b) use newer and less polished
>talent which willwork for less?

     Here is my professional and private opinion.

     Artwork should be divided into two camps for the book.  Large illos, 1/2
page to full page and few of them, but done and budgeted as "money" shot
illustrations.  Highest quality possible.  Tell the artist that they will get a
better pay rate (slightly above the normal illo rate), but the editors expect
time to be taken, sketches for prelim approval and full backgrounds and the
little details that make for a great piece of work.
    And small simple spots and/or icons.

     I'll take fantasy rpg as an example.  A spot could be just the bartender's
head, a 2- handed sword, a standard, a mage's hands (only) weaving a spell.
    Spots can be churned out.  Great place for new artists to cut their teeth
and it still can serve to break up text.  I would caution about repeating the
little spots too often or using them only in the corners of the page.

--storn

######

From: stornc@aol.com (StornC)
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>>Why is text enough to describe a world in a novel but not enough in an rpg?*
<<<

>It would be extremely difficult for me to envision, say, a
>Pathfinder exo-armor or one of the spaceships from Jovian Chronicles without
>a good illustration.
>

   Oh, I'm sure you can envision a Pathfinder exo-armor.  As we all can
visualize stuff in a novel.  But it will be different than how *I* see it.
   
     RPGs are different because we are sharing a story around the table.  We
need to have some things that we can agree on as what they look like. 
Illustrations serve as a baseline of the world view.  

     I'm always struck how different everyone at the table sees the same
situation or object.  It happens every game session.  I see the King's court as
well-lite and romantic, filled with laughter, Neil (a player) sees it filled
with cobwebs and shadows and dour guards.  Eric thinks that its day because the
GM hasn't specifically said otherwise.

    So even if you hate an illo in a RPG book, all of its viewers can look at
it and use it as the basis for what the world looks like.  Even if the GM says;
"I hate this picture and I'm changing x & y about it to fit my world view"  The
all the players can nod their heads and understand where the GM is going with
this particular subject.

######

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<<  A spot could be just the bartender's
head >>


Bring me the head of Alfonse the Innkeeper!

######

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<<    I'm not aware of the name connected to artwork.  Is there any place you
can
check out Brian Froud's work on the net? >>


Just for quick reference, he designed a lot of the characters in LABYRINTH.

######

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Wyrdlyng wrote:
> 

> 
> Let me pose a general question. Is artwork really that significant a factor
> to your purchasing an RPG rulesbook? (You being the general everyone else
> you.)
> 
For me, it is *not* a significant factor.  I have nearly 50 books on my
shelves, (yeah, only 50 in 17 years of gaming) and my decision to buy
them was never affected by the art work.  In those books, there is a
wide range, from excellent to "oh, my God, who gave that idiot a
pencil?".  There are, perhaps, 7 or 8 illustrations that I could easily
bring to mind out of those books.  The rest hardly exist.

> Isn't an rpg rulesbook essentially a technical manual? How many technical
> manuals do you purchase based on interior artwork?
> 
Again, for me, a rule book is a technical manual.  I don't buy an RPG so
that I can run someone else's game background.  IMHO, most game
backgrounds make assumptions that I find annoying or even insulting. 
There is only one that I will run straight:  2300AD.

> Or should it be considered something different?
> 
For some people, it is.  Maybe I'm different, but my opinions are my
own, and just that - opinions.

> And once you read through the rules once does the internal art ever really
> come into play again? Don't you just flip through the book to get to a
> specific rule after that? Do you even notice the artwork again after the
> first read?
> 
I hardly ever notice it on the first read.  As far as this question
goes, interior art ranges from mildly interesting to terribly
distracting, depending on how good or bad it is.  
After the first read, the internal art becomes even more invisible.

I have never been inspired to run a scenario over a picture.  I have
been inspired by a chapter, paragraph, phrase, and even a word.  For me,
reading is a true pleasure.  I have felt anger, love, hate, joy - even
gotten choked up and shed a tear over words on a page.  I have never
come across a piece of art, including real museum pieces and master
pieces, that touches me like a simple combination of letters can.

Glenn
"After a thousand years the darkness has come again!"

######

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StornC <stornc@aol.com> wrote  

>     To, I think, Bruce, who mentioned bad art not giving any support to
the
> writing.  This is true in a very general way.  But sometimes, an artist
will
> have a piece of artwork in a RPG that is not well done or executed, but
still
> gets the idea across.

(like SCAR studios for the old werewolf books, henious artwork, but it was
good for Wyrm beasts, truly sickening ;) )

>    I think we can all agree that we want to see "good" art in RPGs. 
Although,
> it would be tough to agree on what is "good" art.  
>    But deadlines, artist availability, money being paid out, etc do
affect the
> art job for a particular book greatly.

*nods*

  >     But in even the worst pictures I ever produced, I tried my best.  I
tried
> to tell a story and support the text. 
>     Industry note:  Many times, artists do not have access to the writing
due
> to production schedules.  Artists are working on the artwork at the same
time
> writers are finishing the actual book.  What we get is anywhere from a
sentence
> to a paragraph of the illo description.

this is certainly true. I know I prefer to work from either previous illos,
or very detailed text. I like getting details correct. I'm picky that way.

>     What I love about working with FASA is that they send photocopied
pages of
> the actual page layout, so not only do you get the words, but where the
illo is
> going on the page.  Allowing you to push the viewer's eye in the
direction you
> want it to go... like to the most important paragraph or to turn the
page.

Wow, that sounds wonderful. seems like they give a good bit of thought to
the books overall presentation. that's nice.

> 
>     Wow!  I've babbled on much longer than I expected.  Sorry about that.
 
Not a problem.

######

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bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) writes:

> I have never been that dimwitted.  CONTENT is what matters.
> For GURPS products, TEXT is content.  Art is almost always mere
> fluff and should be considered as such.

Glad to know you hold the work of illustrators in such high
regard, Bryan. Franklky, I think you're full of crap on this
one. A *good* illustrator can provide all sorts of benefit to a
game: apart from providing real information value to various
setting details (What do people wear? What exactly does a
X'ght'yrr look like? Which villages does this river flow past?),
good illustrations can also provide an invalualbe conveyance of
"atmosphere" to a game, making the book a greater pleasure to
read, leaf through, and so on.

HarnMaster, for example, would be a much less interesting package
to me if it didn't contain all that gorgeous Eric Hotz artwork,
not to mention the cartography and floorplans.

And Heavy Gear/Jovian Chronicles/Tribe 8 would be *much* less
interesting without all those spiffy illos...

Whatever makes you think that illustration is not CONTENT? How is
it any less CONTENT than the words on the page?

If your comments are specific to GURPS, then perhaps you've got a
more firm leg to stand on, but taken as a general plonk, I think
you *are* in fact being that dimwitted.

-- 
Viktor Haag                           Senior Technical Writer, RIM
'79 99, '89 9000T, '00 9-3 SE         My opinions are my own, only.

######

From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh)
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In article <20000511093328.03980.00002547@ng-fg1.aol.com>, stornc@aol.com (StornC) wrote:

>writing.  This is true in a very general way.  But sometimes, an artist will
>have a piece of artwork in a RPG that is not well done or executed, but still
>gets the idea across.

Right. The flip side of art that's technically good but inappropriate is 
art that's evocative in some key way despite technical weakness. Best is 
to get technique and result in sync, but I can live with a certain 
erratic level of quality if the result really fits the environment being 
illustrated.

This is, as far as I'm concerned, the equivalent of my advice to new 
writers: keep the prose simple and clear, and let the ideas show.

>    What I love about working with FASA is that they send photocopied pages of
>the actual page layout, so not only do you get the words, but where the illo is
>going on the page.  Allowing you to push the viewer's eye in the direction you
>want it to go... like to the most important paragraph or to turn the page.

That rocks.


-- 
Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
 that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein

######

From: Kallini <chris@kallini.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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On 11 May 2000 13:34:44 GMT, stornc@aol.com (StornC) wrote:

>>I'm still waiting for a RPG illustrated by Brian Froud. I'd buy that
>>even if the mechanics sucked dead donkeys' scrotums.
>
>    I'm not aware of the name connected to artwork.  Is there any place you can
>check out Brian Froud's work on the net?
>
>--storn

http://www.faeries.net/

Kallini

######

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<< Good art, bad text--I will not buy.  Bad art, good text--I will buy.  It's
that simple.  Art is secondary >>


But bad art, or art that doesn't fit can be distracting. I utterly HATED the
cartoony illustrations in PARANOIA 5th edition- they were okay in and of
themselves, but totally wrong for the game's tone. The overabundance of
superhero art in HERO (admittedly spun off from CHAMPIONS but still sold as a
generic system) was also distracting.

######

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"Viktor Haag" <vhaag@rim.net> wrote in message
news:1zg0rp5c23.fsf@swdocs.rim.net...
> bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) writes:

> And Heavy Gear/Jovian Chronicles/Tribe 8 would be *much* less
> interesting without all those spiffy illos...

I wouldn't say that they'd be much less interesting...they're all three
dynamic settings in their own right, it just so happens that the art adds a
different dimension to the settings.  To be truthful, DP9 may depend too
much on their illustrations as opposed to describing things in the books,
but I don't mind because the art is almost universally *good*.  This is an
example of three game lines that have different styles of art, although
they're done by the same artist.

Besides, art inspires art.  The Tribe 8 artwork has inspired an artist named
Jude Godin to produce several very cool pieces:

http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/stalker.htm
http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/bonemachine.htm
http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/cinder.htm

And there's an entire site devoted to Tribe 8 artwork at
http://www.bonusninja.com/tribe8/

That's an impressive amount of outpouring for a fringe game like T8 - surely
inspired mostly by the setting, but also by the artwork already present in
the games.  Try looking for AD&D artwork on the web...odds are you're going
to find scanned Dragon magazine covers.

--
Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/
JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/
The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club Metro Survivor's Homepage and
more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
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In article <20000510174703.16844.00002459@ng-fz1.aol.com>, stornc@aol.com
(StornC) wrote:

>    Example:  I can spend paragraphs talking about the differences between 5 or
> 6 races of elves or orcs.  Yet I can group 5 or 6 of those individuals in one
> illustration and give you a ton of information that you might not even be 

And GURPS products VERY rarely do that.  I've been buying GURPS stuff for
quite a long time.  I can say that the art is usually quite
information-free.  You may want to present information, but SJG practice
up to now has been to use art mostly as information-free fluff.  Indeed,
one of the critiques I read against Swashbucklers, for example, was how
the art was so information-free.


>     I assume that by your e-mail address that you are in Ithaca.  Well, I grew
> up in Ithaca, love it with all my heart.  Ithaca is a pretty strong artist
> community.  I hope it and I can change your mind on this subject.

Doubtful--my wife is an artist and she hasn't managed to do so.  As for
"artist community"--I'm surprised they associate with you.  Don't you do
"mere illustration" and that horrible inferior "representative work"?  I
know my wife got all kinds of crap from "fellow artists" regarding her
preferences for years.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6371

In article <8fd1l0$338_002@enews.newsguy.com>, bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce
Baugh) wrote:

> In article <20000510174703.16844.00002459@ng-fz1.aol.com>,
stornc@aol.com (StornC) wrote:
> 
> >   Art is part & parcel of the CONTENT.  It is an interpetation of the words
> >within the book to be sure, but it is another avenue to convey story,
> >information and mood.
> 
> Precisely. Good art enhances and complements the text in describing the 
> setting, suggesting possibilities, evoking mood, and so on. Bad art in 
> gaming is whatever, regardless of its technical merits, works against or 
> simply without relationship to the text.

That may be the way that art should be used, but it's not how art has
typically been used in GURPS products.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 13:29:36 -0400
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6374

In article <20000510174703.16844.00002459@ng-fz1.aol.com>, stornc@aol.com
(StornC) wrote:

>    Art is part & parcel of the CONTENT.  It is an interpetation of the words
> within the book to be sure, but it is another avenue to convey story,
> information and mood.

I have never bought a game with good art and bad text.  I have bought many
games with bad (or no) art and good text.  Art is purely secondary.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 13:31:47 -0400
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In article <6u8zxi2bxx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin
<neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote:

> Back to the original question: I regard bad/unfitting artwork as a
> good sign of an shoddy thrown togehter for a cheap sell product. So
> I will not buy it.

Good art, bad text--I will not buy.  Bad art, good text--I will buy.  It's
that simple.  Art is secondary.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 13:34:45 -0400
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In article <20000510175228.16844.00002461@ng-fz1.aol.com>, stornc@aol.com
(StornC) wrote:

>     What can I say.  I'm responsible for a lot, A LOT! of bad artwork.  But I
> was young.  Hopefully, I've improved.  But I loved doing the Champions stuff

I bought Champions on the strength of the game system.  The art was irrelevant.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:36:55 GMT
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In article <1zg0rp5c23.fsf@swdocs.rim.net>, Viktor Haag <vhaag@rim.net> wrote:

>HarnMaster, for example, would be a much less interesting package
>to me if it didn't contain all that gorgeous Eric Hotz artwork,
>not to mention the cartography and floorplans.

Isn't it Hotz who does the maps for Ars Magica, as well? Some of the 
recent tribunal books are nearly worth getting for those alone, quite 
apart from the books' other merits.


-- 
Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
 that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein

######

From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:38:09 GMT
Organization: Zenrei Bunraku
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6320

In article <bjm10-1105001328420001@potato.cit.cornell.edu>, bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote:

>That may be the way that art should be used, but it's not how art has
>typically been used in GURPS products.

Since I've been criticizing GURPS art since before I discovered Usenet, 
I both agree and wonder what your point is. Did I say something to 
suggest the contrary?


-- 
Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
 that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein

######

From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:39:47 GMT
Organization: Zenrei Bunraku
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In article <bjm10-1105001331470001@potato.cit.cornell.edu>, bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote:

>Good art, bad text--I will not buy.  Bad art, good text--I will buy.  It's
>that simple.  Art is secondary.

And of course you are the center of the gaming universe, your pulse 
firmly on the finger of demand and anticipation. Nobody should seek to 
meet any demand you don't share, nor is there any need to acknowledge as 
worthwhile any desire you don't feel.

Or so one would conclude from your posts. Fortunately, the rest of us 
will go back to working on games that sell pretty well even when you 
disapprove.


-- 
Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
 that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein

######

From: Phil Masters <phil@philm.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:43:34 +0100
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StornC wrote:
>  Example:  I can spend paragraphs talking about the differences between
> 5 or 6 races of elves or orcs.  Yet I can group 5 or 6 of those
> individuals in one illustration and give you a ton of information that
> you might not even be aware you are absorbing.

Hmm. That sounds like an ideal. Unfortunately...

Don't get me wrong; I appreciate good art in RPG books, I have friends
who are artists, and I *love* it when my books get good art. (I also
grind my teeth when they don't. People who remember *Kingdom of
Champions* will understand that I went through that - my first book
published - alternately punching the air and wanting to punch one of the
two main artists.)

However... While I've seen plenty of good, evocative, attractive RPG
art, I've seen *very* little that really, accurately illustrates the
subject of the book better than the adjacent words. Worse, I've seen too
much art - some of it very good in itself - which *contradicted* the
adjacent words. I'm afraid that too many artists just don't read the
text with any care. Having a 70-year-old character depicted as a
smirking thirtysomething hunk can be really, really annoying, believe
me.

I have a nasty feeling that, nine times out of ten, those five or six
races of elves or orcs would be illustrated as five or six exercises in
style and mood by the artist, with maybe a nod to what the artist
thought that the writer was trying to say. In fact, quite often, at
least one of the pictures would have the writer screaming that some
important point has been actively contradicted.

The tenth time... Is a wonderful thing. But the RPG industry doesn't
seem to be organised to make it happen more often than that.

-- 
Phil Masters      *      Home Page: http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/
"Battle not with flamers, lest ye become a flamer; and stare not too
deeply into the 'net, or you will find the 'net staring into you."
                 -- Friedrich Nietzsche (loosely translated)

######

From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: 11 May 2000 17:46:23 GMT
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Viktor Haag  <vhaag@rim.net> wrote:
>bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) writes:
>> I have never been that dimwitted.  CONTENT is what matters.
>> For GURPS products, TEXT is content.  Art is almost always mere
>> fluff and should be considered as such.
[...]
>And Heavy Gear/Jovian Chronicles/Tribe 8 would be *much* less
>interesting without all those spiffy illos...
>
>Whatever makes you think that illustration is not CONTENT? How is
>it any less CONTENT than the words on the page?

	Note that he specified that "text=content" for GURPS 
products, which is likely due to how the books are generally 
produced.  In general, illustrations are not content if they 
do not add coherent information to what you have already read.  

	Personally, this is how I feel about the _Tribe 8_ art.  
It might look spiffy, but it gave me close to zero information.  
The illustrations are frequently of lone pieces of strange-looking 
figures dressed in outlandish costumes.  It is unclear what they 
are doing or who they represent.  Are the strange costumes the 
regular dress of people on this world?  If not, what occaision 
is represented?  

	I would contrast this, say, to _Skyrealms of Jorune_ where 
the illustrations were excellent at conveying a coherent picture 
of the other world.  Most illustrations had captions which 
explained what was represented, and you could see coherent 
vision of (say) the architecture and clothing of the alien 
world.  


-- 
       John H. Kim     | Whatever else is true you
     jhkim@fnal.gov    | Trust your little finger
 www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can
  UC Irvine, Cal, USA  | Save the world.   - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins"

######

From: nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Lines: 23
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REZcat wrote:

<< I do believe that art in gaming books
serves various purposes, such as illustrating npcs, etc. and is more than
'mere fluff" in many cases. >>

In my opinion, *bad* RPG art is mere fluff. *Good* RPG art is *crucial* to the
product, as it illustrates people and places from the book.

One reason my art orders go on and on and on and have page after page of
reference attached is because I want *illustrations* in the products I can
impact on, not just *art*.

That's one reason why I hold the illustrators working in this field who willing
to actually read the entire ms. they are illustrating in high esteem. 


Steve Miller
Writer of Stuff

And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right.
I've been talking to Jesus all my life.
                             --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me"

######

From: John McMullen <jhmcmullen@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:27:57 GMT
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In article <8fbu7b$1f4_002@enews.newsguy.com>,
  bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) wrote:
> In article <slrn8hhrfm.7td.xethair@canticle.concordant-thought.com>,
stormwarden@bigfoot.com wrote:
>
> >Ack, no, an rpg rulebook is not just a technical manual. Why do I say
that?
> >Because the GURPS books are very much like a technical manual. I read
GURPS
> >books in stores, and I just didn't care. Not "didn't care FOR
it"--just
>
> I think that that's a failure of execution, though. (I feel the same
way
> about most, though not all, GURPS prose.) Gaming books _are_ technical
> manuals - they're the instructions for creating games. This means that
> they should evoke their setting and tone as well as covering the
> numbers.
>

As a technical writer, I'd have to agree with Bruce.

Gaming books need to do three things:

1. Introduce the reader to the concepts.
2. Explain mechanics clearly and succinctly.
3. Refer readers to the appropriate places in the book.
4. Inspire the players and the gamemaster.

They're frequently called upon to be used in three different ways:
tutorial, procedural guide, and reference. Those are three very
different ways of working.

Numbers 1, 2, and 3 should be done by any technical document longer
than four pages. You can dump number 1 if your audience is already
knowledgeable. Number 4 is largely the domain of roleplaying games
and writers' guides.

Artwork is useful in any kind of page design -- large blocks of text
are difficult to read unless you have something invested in them (as
in a work of fiction or a gripping magazine article). But artwork is
especially good at inspiring players and evoking mood. It's instantly
evocative, with little processing required.

(Fiction can do it, too, and games use narrative snippets and
vignettes for exactly that purpose. But it can take time to read
fiction, while artwork is right *there*.)

That said, I've never bought a game because of the artwork. In cases
where I had a choice between two books with equal quality of text and
differing quality of artwork, I've gone with the good artwork.

Generic rules systems have a hard time of evoking anything. GURPS and
Hero (and CORPS, come to think of it) work around it by having a
hodgepodge of milieus shown in their artwork. I'm a big fan of some
generic systems, but it was the words and the mechanics that won me
over, not the artwork.

John

--
John McMullen
I don't speak for my employers; my employers don't speak for me.
"Putting the 'fun' in 'dysfunctional.'"




Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Lines: 26
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Bryan J. Maloney wrote:

<< An illustrator who learns what a rapier actually looks like--THAT would be
a godsend! >>

Well... part of that responsibility falls on the shoulders of the person
drafting the art order. 

You want to make sure the character is carrying a rapier? Supply the
illustrator with a visual reference of a rapier and say "THIS is the sword Rafe
is weilding in Illo #3. Make sure the basket has the symbol referred to iin
Illo #2, but otherwise make the sword look like this." I learned long ago not
to leave elements that you think are important in an illo up to chance. I also
learned the reverse... make sure you leave room for the illustrator to flex his
creative muscles, too. For example, if an artist defines a character that
hasn't been previously illustrated differently than what *my* visualization of
he or she was, but it is still within the parameters of what was requested, I
tend to let it go. 


Steve Miller
Writer of Stuff

And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right.
I've been talking to Jesus all my life.
                             --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me"

######

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On Thu, 11 May 2000, Bryan J. Maloney wrote:

So... can I blame my newsfeed for your responses to everyone *but* me
showing up?

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon)
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>I wouldn't say that they'd be much less interesting...they're all three
>dynamic settings in their own right, it just so happens that the art adds a
>different dimension to the settings.  To be truthful, DP9 may depend too
>much on their illustrations as opposed to describing things in the books,
>but I don't mind because the art is almost universally *good*.  This is an
>example of three game lines that have different styles of art, although
>they're done by the same artist.

This is an interesting point: Since Dream Pod 9 can rely on Ghislain Barbe to
produce artwork that will "describe" their settings in a beautiful and
evocative fashion, it occurs to me that they *can* get away with skimping on
the descriptions themselves. And, even better yet, they can then use the space
that would have been used on those descriptions dealing with other facets of
their worlds.

Which actually raises another point in relation to this thread: One of the
reasons we judge games by their artwork is that the artwork is a clue to what
type of world is being described and what type of game it is.

Justin Bacon
triad@prairie.lakes.com

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
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In article <391AF146.5DF87C30@philm.demon.co.uk>, Phil Masters
<phil@philm.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> However... While I've seen plenty of good, evocative, attractive RPG
> art, I've seen *very* little that really, accurately illustrates the
> subject of the book better than the adjacent words. Worse, I've seen too
> much art - some of it very good in itself - which *contradicted* the
> adjacent words. I'm afraid that too many artists just don't read the

You PREACH, brother!  You PREACH!

> thought that the writer was trying to say. In fact, quite often, at
> least one of the pictures would have the writer screaming that some
> important point has been actively contradicted.

I should mention, though, what might happen if the artist and author work
closely together.  Examples:

http://members.tripod.com/~Lunaseas/Artwork/puddles_magaera.html
http://members.tripod.com/~Lunaseas/Artwork/uz.html

However, on both occasions, I rejected the first two attempts.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
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In article <20000511134626.14581.00004922@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller) wrote:

> That's one reason why I hold the illustrators working in this field who
willing
> to actually read the entire ms. they are illustrating in high esteem. 

An illustrator who learns what a rapier actually looks like--THAT would be
a godsend!

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <20000511143624.14581.00004935@ng-ch1.aol.com>, nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller) wrote:

>Illo #2, but otherwise make the sword look like this." I learned long ago not
>to leave elements that you think are important in an illo up to chance. I also
>learned the reverse... make sure you leave room for the illustrator to flex his
>creative muscles, too. 

Just so.

There's an example of this in the Hunter Survival Guide. Leif Jones did 
the chapter frontispieces, and by golly he actually reads art notes and 
pays attention. Here he illustrated a critter I came up with which looks 
to most people like a group of children. He figured out a 
clever way to do that and show the underlying reality, and gave the 
landscape a vaguely Central European look, to match the text. The 
picture, IMHO, actively enhances the chapter - it suggests some 
principles to apply to other Hunter creatures as well as fitting the 
scene it's supposed to illustrate.

Would that there were more Leif Joneses around....


-- 
Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
 that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein

######

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<< (I also
grind my teeth when they don't. People who remember *Kingdom of
Champions* >>

I have that! Don't have CHAMPIONS (though I have the HERO system rules), but
the UK info was useful. Can't say much about the quality of artwork, a piece or
two stood out maybe...

######

From: "Wil Hutton" <sinner@keyway.net>
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"Justin Bacon" <triad3204@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000511145254.19947.00001975@ng-bd1.aol.com...

> Which actually raises another point in relation to this thread: One of the
> reasons we judge games by their artwork is that the artwork is a clue to
what
> type of world is being described and what type of game it is.

Of course, someone earlier said that the art in Tribe 8 did little to help
him visualize the world, while for me it did wonders.  I tend to not care
about little details like, "Is that outfit ritual robes for the Sacred
Scarring Ceremony or are those pajamas?"  The art caused the world to come
alive for me as much as the text did.  Of course, I will often lean more
towards stylistic art than hyperrealistic (which seems to grace one
percentage of rpg books) or what I call "comic-book" style (which seems to
grace another).

--
Dreams of Flesh and Spirit for Tribe 8: http://www.crosswinds.net/~warpweft/
JSPD Datanode for Jovian Chronicles: http://www.crosswinds.net/~jovian/
The Atomic Rumpus Room (RPGs, PikaDance, Club Metro Survivor's Homepage and
more!): http://www.crosswinds.net/~atomicrumpusroom/

######

From: der.bomster@uni-muenster.de (Oliver Booms)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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On Tue, 9 May 2000 23:20:12 -0400, "Wyrdlyng" <wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>
>Let me pose a general question. Is artwork really that significant a factor
>to your purchasing an RPG rulesbook? (You being the general everyone else
>you.)

>Isn't an rpg rulesbook essentially a technical manual? How many technical
>manuals do you purchase based on interior artwork?
>

No, not to me. Over the years I've found myself stripping my style of
play more and more of rules I considered unneccessary (up to a point
that character advancement rules dropped away). So, I'd rather prefer
a basic rpg book to have no more than, say, 20% of rules compared with
about 80% of background. Even if artwork - as in illustrations,  page
border design or even choice of font - is no more than fluff, I'll
have to say that this 'fluff' is what I buy the books for.
To me, good artwork has to major functions: mood and detail. Good
artwork and text (considering that even a really well written rpg book
is rarely more than trash literature) can create much more atmosphere
than any of the alone. I addition, a skilled artist can convey a load
of minor details that would make quite a tedious read if simply
listed.

As for the importance of "artwork" in technical manuals: Visuals can
convey a whole lot of additional information as well as clarify what
is said in the text; so, for a technical manual, a visual
representation of the content is no less important than in rpg books
(however differently modivated).

>And once you read through the rules once does the internal art ever really
>come into play again? Don't you just flip through the book to get to a
>specific rule after that? Do you even notice the artwork again after the
>first read?
>
I don't see this as a specific argument against artwork. If you only
flip though a book for a rule once in a while you should simply ask
yourself if it was worth spending the money on.


>Is artwork even all that essential to an rpg rulesbook? Or have we started
>to slide into the shallow realm of style over substance? (Not calling gamers
>shallow, just the other consumers. ;)
>
>Would you skip over an rpg which had excellent mechanics due to poor artwork
>or lack of artwork? Should art make that big a difference?
>

Frankly, a well written but badly produced rpg books would have to be
really inexpensive compared with a well-produced one. After all, you
can find a whole lot of well-conceived rule systems without any fluff
or major artwork as free resources in the 'net. Why bother with
paying? OTOH, with a well produced book, I can understand if I'll have
to pay more.


bis dahin - 
der bomster.

(der.bomster@uni-muenster.de)

http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/booms/booms.html


--
"Die wahre Poesie ist die Stille ... und wenn man immer nur Bohnen
isst,
wird man nicht zum Dichter."   -   Blacktown, S.24

Danke, Sie waren ein tolles Publikum.

######

From: der.bomster@uni-muenster.de (Oliver Booms)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
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On 10 May 2000 22:30:34 GMT, jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim)
wrote:

>
>	For my two cents:  Personally, I view this much as I view 
>books.  I don't particularly look for illustrated books, and I find 
>pure prose (like, say, Gene Wolfe's _Shadow of the Torturer_) 
>perfectly capable of evoking setting and tone.  There are cases 
>where illustrations can be a good and integral part of the work, 
>however.  
>
But that would be assuming that RPGs are nearly as well written as a
good novel. Personally, I think most RPG writers are uhh... less than
brilliant novelists (or at least that's the conclusion I came to after
reading novels published by companies like TSR or FASA). I don't need
illustrations in literature (actually, for some of the better SF&F
books I'd prefer a less gaudy packaging than your usual colourful oil
painting), but most rpg books are not written as literature but rather
as essays of some sort. (especially considering the fact that a whole
lot of players prefer a scientific style for background writing,
dismissing short prose pieces as unneccessary fluff). Often, tone and
atmosphere are only secondary to the importance of pure information,
so there's actually a need for artwork to help create the mood of a
setting.

>	In RPG's, there are perhaps a handful of cases I can think 
>of illustrations working with them.  _Skyrealms of Jorune_ would be 
>one -- where the illustrations were used with the text to show 
>the alien world.  _Talislanta_ is a similar case.  I can't think 
>of a third offhand.  
>

So, a setting must be as alien as Jorune or Talislanta in order to
justify illustrations? 


>	In my opinion, for the vast majority of RPG books the 
>illustrations are only filler which can at best maintain the feel 
>of the book and at worst detract from it.  Of course, I'm probably 
>not the majority market.  Putting a scantily-clad babe on the cover 
>may help sales more than anything else.  

In fact, I agree with you here. For the majority of products the
artwork is filler material - or close to it - but to me that is not
the case because they are illustrations (illustrations being filler
material per se) but rather because much of the artwork is of mediocre
quality or only marginally connected with the text. If the artwork
consists only of pretty pictures used as a layout tool (1st and 2nd
ed. AD&D rulebooks were prime examples of the latter practice)
I'd agree with the above statement. 


Bis dahin -

der bomster.
(der.bomster@uni-muenster.de)


... jetzt auch bei Elfwood:
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/booms/booms.html


--
"Die wahre Poesie ist die Stille ... und wenn man immer nur Bohnen
isst,
wird man nicht zum Dichter."   -   Blacktown, S.24

Danke, Sie waren ein tolles Publikum.

######

From: der.bomster@uni-muenster.de (Oliver Booms)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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On Wed, 10 May 2000 20:39:49 GMT, "John Peralta"
<johnnype@earthlink.net> wrote:

(snip)
>
>Games with bad artwork:
>Call of Cthulhu, Champions, Babylon 5
>
Just a short notice: the second German CoC edition (by the now defunct
publisher Laurin) was very impressive visually. Instead of mediocre
ink drawings they almost exclusively used actual period phtographs or
maps which very much helped set the mood. (okay, so you had no images
of big slimy Beings Man Was Not Meant To See, but for those I've found
actual images to be a hindrance rather than a help for your
imagination...).
I guess 'good artwork' is a matter of decinding what kind of art to
take as well as the decision not to illustrate something as well...


Bis dahin -
der bomster.
(der.bomster@uni-muenster.de)

...jetzt auch bei elfwood:
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/booms/booms.html


--
"Die wahre Poesie ist die Stille ... und wenn man immer nur Bohnen
isst,
wird man nicht zum Dichter."   -   Blacktown, S.24

Danke, Sie waren ein tolles Publikum.

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <8fer93$1lc_008@enews.newsguy.com>, bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce
Baugh) wrote:

> In article <bjm10-1105001331470001@potato.cit.cornell.edu>,
bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote:
> 
> >Good art, bad text--I will not buy.  Bad art, good text--I will buy.  It's
> >that simple.  Art is secondary.
> 
> And of course you are the center of the gaming universe, your pulse 
> firmly on the finger of demand and anticipation. Nobody should seek to 

No, more people are idiot boobs swayed by glitter instead of substance, I
will admit that.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0005101216300.5243-100000@lists.wirebird.com>,
"Karen J. Cravens" <silver+news@phoenyx.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 10 May 2000, Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
> 
> BJM>I have never been that dimwitted.  CONTENT is what matters.  For GURPS
> BJM>products, TEXT is content.  Art is almost always mere fluff and should be
> BJM>considered as such.
> 
> Thanks for the insult.  Was it really necessary?
> 
> Art can't make me buy books.  Art, especially cover art, can make me *not*
> buy books, though... call it "dimwitted" if you must, but I just can't get
> sufficiently excited about the content of *any* gamebook to overcome the
> repulsion factor of having it lying around looking ugly/annoying/whatever.

Cover art?  CONTENT is what matters.  I don't play a game with the COVER
ART.  I play a game with the RULES.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:52:19 -0400
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In article <20000511143624.14581.00004935@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller) wrote:

> Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
> 
> << An illustrator who learns what a rapier actually looks like--THAT would be
> a godsend! >>
> 
> Well... part of that responsibility falls on the shoulders of the person
> drafting the art order. 

I haven't had that kind of authority on projects.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

From: izzylobo@rochester.rr.com (Scott A. Taylor)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <20000511095046.03980.00002554@ng-fg1.aol.com>, stornc@aol.com
(StornC) wrote:

> >>Why is text enough to describe a world in a novel but not enough in an rpg?*
> <<<
> 
> >It would be extremely difficult for me to envision, say, a
> >Pathfinder exo-armor or one of the spaceships from Jovian Chronicles without
> >a good illustration.
> >
> 
>    Oh, I'm sure you can envision a Pathfinder exo-armor.  As we all can
> visualize stuff in a novel.  But it will be different than how *I* see it.

Case in point.

In a BGC game I am playing in, the group owns a battlemover named Venom,
which has a pair of railgun turrets on it. For most of the game, it has
been used, and assumed to be. designed with both guns in universal turret
mounts, located on the right and left sides of the battlemover... until
the time we actually started talking about what the unit looked like (so I
could get the unit illustrated by a friend of mine), and found out that
the designer had always thought the guns were fore and aft, like a mutant
APC of some kind!

The turrets had never been defined in the (otherwise very good)
description of the unit, and the designer had never stopped to pay
antention when we had used both gun turrets at once on a single target...
as a result, he had to re-image the unit in his head.

>      RPGs are different because we are sharing a story around the table.  We
> need to have some things that we can agree on as what they look like. 
> Illustrations serve as a baseline of the world view.  

Exactly.

I can write a description that describes two crew members walking down the
hallway of a starship. While I could spend a lot of time describing
clothing, manner, equipment, the condition of the hallway, etc. It's a lot
easier to give up a quarter-page illo and let the artist draw all that for
me... sure, I still have to do the write up for the scene, but that
writeup won't cut into the total word count for the book.

Sometimes, a picture really is worth a thousand words.

(Yeah, there's a lot of abominable artwork out there; some of it just
plain sucks rocks. And sometimes the artwork doesn't come *close* to
matching what the scene is supposed to look like. But that's the blame of
the Art Director, not the idea of artwork itself. Done right, artwork is a
godsend. Done average, it neither helps nor hinders, and is a better use
of necessary whitespace than giant borders, loose tracking and kerning,
etc. Done poorly, it sucks... but if the artwork is done poorly, it's very
possible other things are as well).

-- 
Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have Powerbook, Will Travel

######

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On Thu, 11 May 2000, Bryan J. Maloney wrote:

KC> Thanks for the insult.  Was it really necessary?

You still haven't answered this bit.

BJM>Cover art?  CONTENT is what matters.  I don't play a game with the COVER
BJM>ART.  I play a game with the RULES.

Yes, rules matter.  But am I willing to put up with offensive cover art
merely to play with a particular set of rules?

The answer there is a big fat "no."  I did that once, with the Grimoire...
cut-and-punched the critter, and tossed the cover in the trash.  Then I
said to myself, "Why did I pay for something I intended to throw away?"

So if another edition of Wizards comes out with a reasonable cover, I'll
buy it.  If not, I'll spend my money elsewhere.  That doesn't mean I'll
buy something with a pretty cover and bad rules.  It just means I won't
buy something I find unpleasant.  Does that seem unreasonable?

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

From: "REZcat" <rezcat@gwis.com>
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Phil Masters <phil@philm.demon.co.uk> wrote  > 
> However... While I've seen plenty of good, evocative, attractive RPG
> art, I've seen *very* little that really, accurately illustrates the
> subject of the book better than the adjacent words. Worse, I've seen too
> much art - some of it very good in itself - which *contradicted* the
> adjacent words. I'm afraid that too many artists just don't read the
> text with any care. Having a 70-year-old character depicted as a
> smirking thirtysomething hunk can be really, really annoying, believe
> me.
 
I would tend to agree with you, but in artists' defense, they sometimes do
not get the writer's text to work from and are forced to invent whatever
that may not coincide. That is often an oversight of the editors, and not
necessarily of the artists themselves. Granted, there are those artists
that just don't seem to care about having things fit the text at
all....(Christopher Shy comes to mind...) 

######

From: "REZcat" <rezcat@gwis.com>
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Steve Miller <nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT> wrote  > 
> One reason my art orders go on and on and on and have page after page of
> reference attached is because I want *illustrations* in the products I
can
> impact on, not just *art*.
> 
> That's one reason why I hold the illustrators working in this field who
willing
> to actually read the entire ms. they are illustrating in high esteem. 
 
This touches on something I have said before to others. You are perfectly
correct here. Many of the RPG artists out there have to remember, they
aren't just making *art* for art's sake, but that they have to /illustrate/
something. It boils down to art directors making sure the artists have the
text they plan to illustrate, and the artists themselves actually reading
it and using it. 

######

From: "REZcat" <rezcat@gwis.com>
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Nice apology for the insult there Bryan. 

Bryan J. Maloney <bjm10@cornell.edu> wrote in article
<bjm10-1105001750060001@potato.cit.cornell.edu>...
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0005101216300.5243-100000@lists.wirebird.com>,
> "Karen J. Cravens" <silver+news@phoenyx.net> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 10 May 2000, Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
> > 
> > BJM>I have never been that dimwitted.  CONTENT is what matters.  For
GURPS
> > BJM>products, TEXT is content.  Art is almost always mere fluff and
should be
> > BJM>considered as such.
> > 
> > Thanks for the insult.  Was it really necessary?
> > 
> > Art can't make me buy books.  Art, especially cover art, can make me
*not*
> > buy books, though... call it "dimwitted" if you must, but I just can't
get
> > sufficiently excited about the content of *any* gamebook to overcome
the
> > repulsion factor of having it lying around looking
ugly/annoying/whatever.
> 
> Cover art?  CONTENT is what matters.  I don't play a game with the COVER
> ART.  I play a game with the RULES.
> 
> -- 
> "Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
> should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
> dealing with our mental health crisis today."
> 

######

From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Oliver Booms <der.bomster@uni-muenster.de> wrote:
>John Kim <jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu> wrote:
>> I don't particularly look for illustrated books, and I find 
>> pure prose (like, say, Gene Wolfe's _Shadow of the Torturer_) 
>> perfectly capable of evoking setting and tone.  There are cases 
>> where illustrations can be a good and integral part of the work, 
>> however.  
>
>But that would be assuming that RPGs are nearly as well written as a
>good novel. Personally, I think most RPG writers are uhh... less than
>brilliant novelists 
[...]
>Often, tone and atmosphere are only secondary to the importance of 
>pure information, so there's actually a need for artwork to help 
>create the mood of a setting.

	No, I'm not assuming that the writers are brilliant -- I am 
simply assuming that the illustrations of an RPG work will be of 
roughly comparable quality to the writing.  Then again, I am not 
usually swayed by "mood setting" as an important job for a game.  
In most cases, RPG's will have source material which does a much 
better job of mood setting than the illustrations or fiction in 
the book.  (i.e. for _Call of Cthulhu_, read Lovecraft; etc.)
If they exist, I think it is better to point readers to these 
sources rather than trying to recreate them in your own fiction 
and illustrations.  

	_Star Wars_ is a case in point.  I found the drawn 
illustrations of the RPG to be pretty pointless, given that everyone 
already has visualized the images from the excellent movies.  The 
chinsy drawings made for the RPG looked really awful by comparison 
and did nothing to add to the game.  

-*-*-*-*-*-*-
>
>> In RPG's, there are perhaps a handful of cases I can think of 
>> illustrations working with them.  _Skyrealms of Jorune_ would be 
>> one -- where the illustrations were used with the text to show 
>> the alien world.  _Talislanta_ is a similar case.  I can't think 
>> of a third offhand.  
>
>So, a setting must be as alien as Jorune or Talislanta in order to
>justify illustrations? 

	Not at all.  However, I suspect that in these cases the 
producers of the game realized took great care that the illustrations 
were consistent and informative.  Producers of RPG's in more 
familiar settings might take more details more for granted, and 
end up with "fluff" illustrations as a result.  


-- 
       John H. Kim     | Whatever else is true you
     jhkim@fnal.gov    | Trust your little finger
 www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can
  UC Irvine, Cal, USA  | Save the world.   - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins"

######

From: izzylobo@rochester.rr.com (Scott A. Taylor)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6232

In article <bjm10-1105001752190001@potato.cit.cornell.edu>,
bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote:

> In article <20000511143624.14581.00004935@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
> nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller) wrote:
> 
> > Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
> > 
> > << An illustrator who learns what a rapier actually looks like--THAT 
> > would be a godsend! >>
> > 
> > Well... part of that responsibility falls on the shoulders of the person
> > drafting the art order. 
> 
> I haven't had that kind of authority on projects.

And aren't we all just totally astounded, our mouths agape, at this
ghastly turn of events?

-- 
Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have Powerbook, Will Travel

######

From: George W. Harris <gharrus@mundsprung.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 22:18:05 -0400
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On Thu, 11 May 2000 13:50:10 -0500, "Karen J. Cravens"
<silver+news@phoenyx.net> wrote:

:On Thu, 11 May 2000, Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
:
:So... can I blame my newsfeed for your responses to everyone *but* me
:showing up?

	He didn't respond to me pointing out that 
he's dim-witted, either.  I'll take silence for assent.

-- 
They say there's air in your lungs that's been there for years.

George W. Harris  For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.

######

From: nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Bruce Baugh wrote:

<< There's an example of this in the Hunter Survival Guide. Leif Jones did 
the chapter frontispieces, and by golly he actually reads art notes and 
pays attention. >>

He amazed me with his work on 'Clash of Wills,' too. I flipped through that
adventure and could recognize specific characters and scenes!

I agree... every game illustrator should be like Leif Jones. :)


Steve Miller
Writer of Stuff

And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right.
I've been talking to Jesus all my life.
                             --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me"

######

From: "Wyrdlyng" <wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net>
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Storn said...
>      Here is my professional and private opinion.
>
>      Artwork should be divided into two camps for the book.  Large illos,
1/2
> page to full page and few of them, but done and budgeted as "money" shot
> illustrations.  Highest quality possible.  Tell the artist that they will
get a
> better pay rate (slightly above the normal illo rate), but the editors
expect
> time to be taken, sketches for prelim approval and full backgrounds and
the
> little details that make for a great piece of work.
>     And small simple spots and/or icons.
>
>      I'll take fantasy rpg as an example.  A spot could be just the
bartender's
> head, a 2- handed sword, a standard, a mage's hands (only) weaving a
spell.
>     Spots can be churned out.  Great place for new artists to cut their
teeth
> and it still can serve to break up text.  I would caution about repeating
the
> little spots too often or using them only in the corners of the page.


That's a damned good idea that I'd like to see used by the industry in the
future.





--
"Beautiful, beautiful girl from the North
You burned my heart with a flickering torch"
 -- Iggy Pop, Candy

Wyrdlyng
wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net

######

From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 03:06:38 GMT
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In article <20000511222311.22316.00004952@ng-md1.aol.com>, nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller) wrote:

>I agree... every game illustrator should be like Leif Jones. :)

He's just so good and flexible. I've started buying originals from him, 
and he's dirt cheap.


-- 
Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
 that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein

######

From: BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au (Brett Evill)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: 12 May 2000 04:37:03 GMT
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In article <391AB2C9.AE24BBB5@myriad.net>, Frank T. Sronce wrote...
>
>        Personally, I feel that if you can't get a nice illustration,
>particularly for something as important as what some monster actually
>_looks_ like, just replace the picture with a little extra descriptive
>text and let the players use their imagination.

Here you touch on a very important distinction: the distinction between 
illustration and decoration. Even the despised technical manuals 
contain illustrations: pictures and diagrams that make an explanation 
clearer, that convey information in a compact and unambiguous way, and 
are thus or otherwise crassly utilitarian, even though they might also 
display excellent technique. Among my collection of technical manuals 
is an old UK government manual on knots and splices: it is profusely 
illustrated, but completely undecorated. There are also illustrative 
drawings and photographs in some of my Australian Army field and 
training manuals: there is no sense in which they are there to break up 
the text and give a more balanced look to the page.

We often talk of games books containing artwork. We mustn't let that 
mislead us into considering the graphics in a game book as necessarily 
having the same purpose as a work of art. Sometimes it might, but often 
its purpose is rather to provide a clear example of something that is 
difficult to describe, such as a spatial relationship, or an unfamiliar 
tool or weapon.

I am all for illustrations in this sense. I think that many games books 
have too few. For example many games fail to illustrate the unfamiliar 
weapons which they list. How many people know what a yataghan is, or 
the differenced between a scimitar and a shamshir? I am much less keen 
on decorations or ornaments, which have to be very good to be any good 
at all, and are very often just an expensive waste of space.

Both good illustrations and good decorations require great skill to 
draw. But the skills required are different, as the purposes of the 
works are different. The Scientific American very often has great 
illustrative artwork in it: but you would never expect to see the 
originals of that art hanging on anyone's dining-room wall. The 
originals of good cover art, by contrast, would not be out of place in 
an art museum.

In summary, I prefer games books to contain artwork that is useful, not 
just pretty. I cannot say that I am either for or against artwork in 
RPGs. I could only answer the question in particular, saying whether I 
though a piece of artwork succeeds in clearly conveying the information 
that it is intended to illustrate. But though a bad or ugly diagram is 
worse than a clear and attractive one, it may still be better than 
nothing. The same is not true of bad decorative art: it can often be 
worse than nothing.

Regards,

-- 
Brett Evill
(The opinions expressed above are not those of the Bureau of Transport 
Economics, the Federal Department of Transport and Regional Services, 
or the Australian Commonwealth Government.)

######

From: pj_fitz@hotmail.com (Fitz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 04:44:25 GMT
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On 11 May 2000 13:34:44 GMT, stornc@aol.com (StornC) wrote:

>>I'm still waiting for a RPG illustrated by Brian Froud. I'd buy that
>>even if the mechanics sucked dead donkeys' scrotums.
>
>    I'm not aware of the name connected to artwork.  Is there any place you can
>check out Brian Froud's work on the net?

I'm not sure about that, but if you ever saw the film "Labyrinth" (the
one in which David Bowie plays the goblin king), all of the creature
design and most of the set design was his work. He also did the
critter and set design for "The Dark Crystal", I believe.

Postscript: after a quick search, I found some stuff at
http://www.faeries.net/index2.html

I don't know what's there in the way of examples of his stuff, but it
might be worth a look.

Fitz
http://usa.spis.co.nz/fitz

######

From: BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au (Brett Evill)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: 12 May 2000 04:59:52 GMT
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In article <8ff0rq$1eo_002@enews.newsguy.com>, Bruce Baugh wrote...
>
>There's an example of this in the Hunter Survival Guide. Leif Jones did 
>the chapter frontispieces, and by golly he actually reads art notes and 
>pays attention. Here he illustrated a critter I came up with which looks 
>to most people like a group of children. He figured out a 
>clever way to do that and show the underlying reality, and gave the 
>landscape a vaguely Central European look, to match the text. The 
>picture, IMHO, actively enhances the chapter - it suggests some 
>principles to apply to other Hunter creatures as well as fitting the 
>scene it's supposed to illustrate.
>
>Would that there were more Leif Joneses around....

I had good experiences working with an Italian illustrator called Max 
Bertuzzi. He was pencilling a comic book set in my 'Flat Black' SF 
setting for Dreamriders, and sent me a scan of every page for feedback 
before sending it to the inker. It really is a pity that that project has 
been scuppered by marketing problems.

Anyway, one of the results is that a team at DARPA hoping to start a 
program to develop armour for the US infantry has asked to use one of 
Max's drawings to illustrate their concept. Which I find gratifying 
because that picture was drawn very much to my description. I don't mind 
recommending Max if anyone should be looking for an illustrator.

Regards,

-- 
Brett Evill
(The opinions expressed above are not those of the Bureau of Transport 
Economics, the Federal Department of Transport and Regional Services, or 
the Australian Commonwealth Government.)

######

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In article <OC4S4.7556$Pk.4235201@news1.mia>, "Wyrdlyng"
<wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>"Thomas Bagwell" <tnbagwell@mail.com> wrote in message
>news:8et5kl$bi1$1@news.smartworld.net...
>
>> Bad artwork is annoying, but can be dealt with.  This
wasn't "bad" per se,
>> although I've seen better.  It was gross and annoying,
though.  To the
>point
>> that I put it back on the shelf without being able to
concentrate on the
>> parts I wanted to see. <sigh>
>
>Let me pose a general question. Is artwork really that
significant a factor
>to your purchasing an RPG rulesbook? (You being the general
everyone else
>you.)

In general, no.  This time is the first time that artwork has
ever really swayed me one way or the other.  I consider good
artwork to be a bonus.  At the worst (quality-wise), I am
annoyed and irritated, but it won't make me not buy
it.  'Unknown Armies' had artwork that was better quality than
some, but was so distasteful that I had no desire to look at it
each time I picked up the book.  It was quite literally
repugnant.

>Isn't an rpg rulesbook essentially a technical manual? How many
technical
>manuals do you purchase based on interior artwork?

Well, if I need schematics or diagrams, they may be critical.
If you mean decorative only, then none.  I don't consider rpg
rulebooks to be technical manuals, though.  That is one function
they serve, but their primary function is entertainment.  I need
them to provide useful information in a way that conveys not
just mechanics, but also a feel for the world or setting.  Dry
text can provide the essential material, but the artwork can
often provide bonus entertainment on a different level, or can
enhance the text. 'Jorune' and 'The Primal Order' are examples
of rulebooks with artwork I considered either useful for
atmosphere and additional world knowledge (Jorune), or a book
that just had artwork I thought was enjoyable to look at (the
Primal Order books).


>Or should it be considered something different?

"Technical Manual" is one aspect of what a rpg rulebook should
be, but they can be more than that.

>And once you read through the rules once does the internal art
ever really
>come into play again? Don't you just flip through the book to
get to a
>specific rule after that? Do you even notice the artwork again
after the
>first read?

If it's good or bad, I will continue to notice it.  If it is
average, probably not.  If it is really gross or repugnant, I
probably would not be able to ignore it.

>Is artwork even all that essential to an rpg rulesbook? Or have
we started
>to slide into the shallow realm of style over substance? (Not
calling gamers
>shallow, just the other consumers. ;)

I consider several RPGs to fall into this category.  I found the
artwork and layout of the Vampire books to be downright
annoying.  It was (IMO) way too much emphasis on art and "look"
and not enough on a usable layout.

>Would you skip over an rpg which had excellent mechanics due to
poor artwork
>or lack of artwork? Should art make that big a difference?

Poor or lacking artwork, no.  Repugnant artwork, yes.  It
usually doesn't make that big a difference to me. Unless it's
going to slap me across the face each time I open the book.

>Should there even be artwork in rulesbooks? Why?

Yes.  Artwork can provide a mood or feel for the world in much
less space than the words it would take to convey the same
feel.  It can also be very useful in depicting things where
words just wouldn't be as effective.  Try imagining a Jorune
rulebook with no illustrations.  It wouldn't be nearly the same
or nearly as interesting a setting.

Tom B.

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

######

From: Phil Masters <phil@philm.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:04:57 +0100
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Bokman7757 wrote:
> I have that! Don't have CHAMPIONS (though I have the HERO system rules),
> but the UK info was useful. Can't say much about the quality of artwork,
> a piece or two stood out maybe...

Actually, I think it may be Ben Edlund's only major work in the RPG
industry - from somewhat before he went to Hollywood. He's the good
artist in that book.

Not only did he draw very nice pictures (in a slightly cartoony style,
but hey, it was a superhero sourcebook), but he *read the text*. I was
impressed.

The really ironic thing was that both he and the other artist
illustrated one particular villain team (MACE). The other artist did the
individual portraits, and ****ed them up; Edlund did a fight scene,
which ended up incorporating several images that were better portraits
than the portraits.

-- 
Phil Masters      *      Home Page: http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/

######

From: Phil Masters <phil@philm.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:08:01 +0100
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Bruce Baugh wrote:
> Isn't it Hotz who does the maps for Ars Magica, as well? Some of the
> recent tribunal books are nearly worth getting for those alone, quite
> apart from the books' other merits.

Even if they do miss London off the map of Britain.

Actually, Hotz does *very* nice "woodcut" art. *Ars Magica* is the main
place to look, but *GURPS Russia* has some nice examples too.

-- 
Phil Masters      *      Home Page: http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/
"Battle not with flamers, lest ye become a flamer; and stare not too
deeply into the 'net, or you will find the 'net staring into you."
                 -- Friedrich Nietzsche (loosely translated)

######

From: xethair@concordant-thought.com (Robert Braddock)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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>> BJM>I have never been that dimwitted.  CONTENT is what matters.  For GURPS
>> BJM>products, TEXT is content.  Art is almost always mere fluff and should be
>> BJM>considered as such.

>> Thanks for the insult.  Was it really necessary?

From him, of course. Be proud, he blessed you with THREE lines of text. Oh,
to be so favored... Aren't I special too?   ;P

>> sufficiently excited about the content of *any* gamebook to overcome the
>> repulsion factor of having it lying around looking ugly/annoying/whatever.

Definitely. A horrible cover is something I'm unhappy about every time I see
the book. All I ask from game makers is "not bad art"--if that means no art,
well, it's better than bad art. (Although I will admit that no matter how
awful the art, there's always someone who thinks it is "way cool". Still, I
have never had someone say something negative about Talislanta art, so
there's more than just style preference at work...)


BJM>Cover art?  CONTENT is what matters.  I don't play a game with the COVER
BJM>ART.  I play a game with the RULES.

_I_ don't play a game with the RULES. I'm not dependent on the game makers
to feed me vacant minutae that add nothing to the experience. Gurps books
are some of the most useless game materials I've seen. I'm really impressed
at how successfully and consistently they can distill the essence of
practically any genre completely away, leaving a dry husk of clear prose and
a big empty pile of rules.

Are you just in this thread to be rude or what? You repeatedly make short,
uninsightful and rude comments restating againe and again your (completely
uninteresting) view on the subject, in an apparent attempt to prevent any
real discussion from taking place. You're like the loud guy in a group who
just yells his opinion over everyone else and thinks about how smart he is
while the others wait for him to leave.

You obviously make no attempt to understand what's being said to you and are
just wasting both our time. Why don't you find a thread that is about
something you _are_ interestd in, and bother them.


--
Robert Braddock

######

Message-ID: <391BC5CC.2451@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>
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Karen J. Cravens wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 9 May 2000, Wyrdlyng wrote:
> 
> W>Would you skip over an rpg which had excellent mechanics due to poor artwork
> W>or lack of artwork? Should art make that big a difference?
> 
> Yes.  I've skipped over things like GURPS Wizards, a product I'd been
> waiting for, because the cover art unimpressed me so much.  It's not the
> first time, either.

I missed the excellent 'DragonQuest' entirely because it had bad cover
art. Not technically bad: on the contrary, it was marked by faultless
draftsmanship and competent technique with acrylics. But it was a
picture of a muscled oaf in bondage gear, with a ludicrously large sword
in one hand and a severed dragon-head in the other. I judged from the
cover art that it wasn't aimed at my market segment. Until too late, by
which time the only version available had been revised by someone with a
catastrophically poor understanding of the game.

On the other hand, the proprietor of a games shop recommended
'Mercenaries, spies, and private eyes' to me, and the cover art was nice
so I bought it. And brought it back the next day and exchanged it for
'Justice, Inc.' because I found the game design loathesome and spotty.

Regards,


Brett Evill

######

From: stornc@aol.com (StornC)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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>Doubtful--my wife is an artist and she hasn't managed to do so.  As for
>"artist community"--I'm surprised they associate with you.  Don't you do
>"mere illustration" and that horrible inferior "representative work"?  I
>know my wife got all kinds of crap from "fellow artists" regarding her
>preferences for years.

    I actually brought this up because I miss my family and Ithaca.  But the
answer to your question is no.  I've had nothing but support from the artists
and artisans that I knew in my youth.
    My mother is an artist and that might have something to do with it.  Her
circle of friends, sculptors, water colorists, landscape architects (who one
can paint circles around me) have all taught me something at one time or
another.  
    I might get some ribbing on drawing SuperHeroic MuscleMen from time to
time, but never any true derision.

--storn

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Jubilation T. Cornpone)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0005111711340.12154-100000@lists.wirebird.com>, "Karen J. Cravens" <silver+news@phoenyx.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 11 May 2000, Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
>
>KC> Thanks for the insult.  Was it really necessary?
>
>You still haven't answered this bit.

It struck me as remarkably foolish behavior, allowing mere fluff to dictate 
purchase decisions.  Very much a "cut off the nose to spite the face" sort of 
action.

>The answer there is a big fat "no."  I did that once, with the Grimoire...
>cut-and-punched the critter, and tossed the cover in the trash.  Then I
>said to myself, "Why did I pay for something I intended to throw away?"

So you threw away the WHOLE BOOK, right?  No?  You kept the VAST MAJORITY of 
it?  You kept the part you intended to us?  But, but, but you said...

>
>So if another edition of Wizards comes out with a reasonable cover, I'll
>buy it.  If not, I'll spend my money elsewhere.  That doesn't mean I'll
>buy something with a pretty cover and bad rules.  It just means I won't

I don't let fluff (cover art) dictate my purchasing decisions.

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Jubilation T. Cornpone)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
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In article <slrn8hnbtk.erj.xethair@canticle.concordant-thought.com>, stormwarden@bigfoot.com wrote:

>_I_ don't play a game with the RULES. I'm not dependent on the game makers
>to feed me vacant minutae that add nothing to the experience. Gurps books

In that case, you NEVER BUY GAMES, right???

>are some of the most useless game materials I've seen. I'm really impressed
>at how successfully and consistently they can distill the essence of
>practically any genre completely away, leaving a dry husk of clear prose and
>a big empty pile of rules.
>
>Are you just in this thread to be rude or what? You repeatedly make short,
>uninsightful and rude comments restating againe and again your (completely
>uninteresting) view on the subject, in an apparent attempt to prevent any

For such an uninteresting view, you show a lot of interest.

>You obviously make no attempt to understand what's being said to you and are

I understand.  Understanding does not guarantee agreement.  Only the arrogant, 
egotist, and foolish think that anyone who understands what they say must 
automatically agree with them.

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Jubilation T. Cornpone)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <8fer61$1lc_006@enews.newsguy.com>, bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) wrote:
>In article <bjm10-1105001328420001@potato.cit.cornell.edu>, bjm10@cornell.edu
> (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote:
>
>>That may be the way that art should be used, but it's not how art has
>>typically been used in GURPS products.
>
>Since I've been criticizing GURPS art since before I discovered Usenet, 
>I both agree and wonder what your point is. Did I say something to 
>suggest the contrary?
>
>

I quote myself:  "CONTENT is what matters.  For GURPS products, TEXT is 
content.  Art is almost always mere fluff and should be considered as such."

My first statement was tied to a comment about a GURPS product.

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Jubilation T. Cornpone)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <cmomhs0m3vhar8sckksourgbt1v7jis33j@4ax.com>, gharrus@mundsprung.com wrote:
>On Thu, 11 May 2000 13:50:10 -0500, "Karen J. Cravens"
><silver+news@phoenyx.net> wrote:
>
>:On Thu, 11 May 2000, Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
>:
>:So... can I blame my newsfeed for your responses to everyone *but* me
>:showing up?
>
>        He didn't respond to me pointing out that 
>he's dim-witted, either.  I'll take silence for assent.
>

No, you're just an idiot.  I cross-posted the thread to encourage interplay.  
It's not my fault that cultists of the "hard money" superstition got onto it.

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Jubilation T. Cornpone)
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In article <1zg0rp5c23.fsf@swdocs.rim.net>, Viktor Haag <vhaag@rim.net> wrote:
>bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) writes:
>
>> I have never been that dimwitted.  CONTENT is what matters.
>> For GURPS products, TEXT is content.  Art is almost always mere
>> fluff and should be considered as such.
>
>Glad to know you hold the work of illustrators in such high
>regard, Bryan. Franklky, I think you're full of crap on this
>one. A *good* illustrator can provide all sorts of benefit to a
>game: apart from providing real information value to various

Name five GURPS products other than Bestiary, Fantasy Folk, or SciFi Folk 
[sic] wherein this has happened.

######

From: stornc@aol.com (StornC)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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>>I bought Champions on the strength of the game system.  The art was
irrelevant.<<

    Ok, now I have to totally disagree with you.  The art is an important, nay,
necessary part of Champions.
    Remember, Champions seeks to simulate the world of comics.  Comics are not
novels, are not movies.  They are artwork with words created on paper.  That is
the common language of comics, that is part and parcel of its appeal.

    Almost every character in Champions has a unique look to them, a costume or
a power that causes some physical change from the norm.
     You are going to tell me that artwork is irrelevant?  You are going to
tell me that costumes and looks of paranormals can be made clear by paragraphs
of description instead?  BULLSHIT!
    Even a bad illo in Champions gets across a sense of personality, power
type, costume preference in a way that text cannot.
    Because these are comic universes we are talking about.  No where near the
realm of reality.  This is the land of Kirby, Steranko, Perez, Byrne and Lee,
this is not land of the mundane.

--storn

######

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>>Many of the RPG artists out there have to remember, they
aren't just making *art* for art's sake, but that they have to /illustrate/
something. It boils down to art directors making sure the artists have the
text they plan to illustrate, and the artists themselves actually reading
it and using it. <<

    I have never made illustration for art's sake.  I've always tried to tell a
story.  That is my job.  I'm a visual storyteller.
    When I became interested in this field, I remember the artwork that
impressed me (Howard Pyle's Men in ARmor, Wow!, NC Wyeth's Pirates) and the
stories they INSPIRED in me.

    Only years later am approaching the more traditional field of "fine art",
but it will always be a secondary cousin to my love of telling a story.

     As for writers and description.  You would be appalled to see some of the
descriptions i get.  Literally 1 sentence for a 1/4 page illo.  Which is fine,
I have an imagination, it is one of the reasons I get hired.
     But it is much easier to trim away info from an illo than to second guess
what info should be in there from an incomplete description.
 
     Kudos to writers who find reference.  I spend god awful amount of time
looking for reference and that is such a help when I have a clear understanding
of what the writer wants.
    Boy Steve Miller, I hope I get to work with you some day!

p.s.  I know what a rapier looks like and prefer the real heavy combat ones,
not the swishy hollywood ones.  Beside, if the wielders are in the middle
ground, it is damn hard to keep your lines that thin!

--storn

######

From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." <richberg@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:11:59 -0400
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StornC wrote:
> 
> >>I bought Champions on the strength of the game system.  The art was
> irrelevant.<<
> 
>     Ok, now I have to totally disagree with you.  The art is an important, nay,
> necessary part of Champions.

Oh gawd, no offense, but...
If so, Champs often failed miserably.

>     Remember, Champions seeks to simulate the world of comics.  

Yet despite a very solid rules system many of the illustration fail to
rise 
above "Bam! Pow!".
Message seems to be, if you like _dumb_ comics, you'll like our game.
This trend got even worse in New Millenium...

> 
>     Almost every character in Champions has a unique look to them, a costume or
> a power that causes some physical change from the norm.

Unfortunatley, I have to disagree here to.
If, you define "unique" as "within this specific setting", sure.
But in the larger picture, too many Champs illos and character designs
look like 
just one more generic do-gooder..

>      You are going to tell me that artwork is irrelevant?  You are going to
> tell me that costumes and looks of paranormals can be made clear by paragraphs
> of description instead?  BULLSHIT!

Unfortunately, the illo's in Champs don't make it clear.
They make it cliche.
Plus the game doesn't really target people without some super-hero genre
familiarity 
anyways does it?
Does the target audience _need_ to be reminded constantly of the genre's
visual 
conventions and least common denominator designs, or is this stuff most
of flash on 
by merely hearing the words "superhero" and "comics".

>     Even a bad illo in Champions gets across a sense of personality, power
> type, costume preference in a way that text cannot.

See, some of us feel the bad illo's only give a sense of 
"The guys in layout said we needed _something_ here."

>     Because these are comic universes we are talking about.  No where near the
> realm of reality.  This is the land of Kirby, Steranko, Perez, Byrne and Lee,
> this is not land of the mundane.

Basically I agree with your take if the art was Kirby, or Byrne, or
Steranko, 
or Perez, or even StornC.
But too often it's "Hey who was that guy who did those dismal Titan's
issues 
in the mid-seventie?"
In too many cases the art word in Champs seems to limit the mood, reduce 
the potential believability, or give the feel that this stuff shouldn't
be 
taken seriously anyways.
Granted, you can have a lot of fun playing fluff supers, but...

######

From: stornc@aol.com (StornC)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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>not get the writer's text to work from and are forced to invent whatever
>that may not coincide. That is often an oversight of the editors, and not
>necessarily of the artists themselves. Granted, there are those artists
>that just don't seem to care about having things fit the text at
>all....(Christopher Shy comes to mind...) 
>

    I care!!!  I remember my first Champs product, Normals Unbound.  I was sent
the actual text and I still goofed up.  The guy was suppossed to have a Harley
motorcycle and I did a japanese dirt bike.  I felt horrible, because I did read
it and simply  forgot.  It wasn't caught by the editor in the sketch phase.  It
wasn't caught by me.
    On the other hand, I did 63 other illos for that book and I think most of
them were attentive to the text.
    Now inking with a #3 brush, that was a mistake too!   Yikes, hate thinking
about the early days.

--storn

######

From: "REZcat" <rezcat@gwis.com>
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
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StornC <stornc@aol.com> wrote  
> > Granted, there are those artists 
> >that just don't seem to care about having things fit the text at
> >all....(Christopher Shy comes to mind...) 
> >
> 
>     I care!!!   

Never said you didn't Storn. ;-) 
Kudos to your continued good work. :)

######

From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:56:02 GMT
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In article <8fg348$723100@cook.dotrs.gov.au>, BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au (Brett Evill) wrote:

>I had good experiences working with an Italian illustrator called Max 
>Bertuzzi.

>Anyway, one of the results is that a team at DARPA hoping to start a 
>program to develop armour for the US infantry has asked to use one of 
>Max's drawings to illustrate their concept. Which I find gratifying 
>because that picture was drawn very much to my description. I don't mind 
>recommending Max if anyone should be looking for an illustrator.

Wow. That's neat!

I'd like to start a sub-thread. I invite writers, developers, editors, 
and the like to talk about the artists we particularly like, with a 
little discussion about why. Save the knocking for now - let's 
acknowledge the _good_ ones.


-- 
Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
 that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
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Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Well, haven't I been the grand screaming asshole as of late?  I'm sure
that I could invent some sort of magnificent ulterior motive for doing so,
but it wouldn't even fool me.

I cannot guarantee that I will not do so in the future, but I will at
least claim to try.  For those I have actually offended by what I said (as
opposed to by merely holding a contrary opinion to theirs), my apologies.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
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On Fri, 12 May 2000, Jubilation T. Cornpone wrote:

JTC>No, you're just an idiot.  I cross-posted the thread to encourage interplay.  
JTC>It's not my fault that cultists of the "hard money" superstition got onto it.

If Usenet was about interplay, we'd all be in one giant
newsgroup.  Crossposts should always have this:

Followups set.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

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On Fri, 12 May 2000, Jubilation T. Cornpone wrote:

JTC>It struck me as remarkably foolish behavior, allowing mere fluff to dictate 
JTC>purchase decisions.  Very much a "cut off the nose to spite the face" sort of 
JTC>action.

Depends, doesn't it, on how badly I wanted the "face"?

JTC>So you threw away the WHOLE BOOK, right?  No?  You kept the VAST MAJORITY of 
JTC>it?  You kept the part you intended to us?  But, but, but you said...

Would you pay the same for a black and white three-ring-punched game that
you would for a full-color-cover perfect-bound book?

JTC>I don't let fluff (cover art) dictate my purchasing decisions.

In other words, you have poor impulse control.  Okay, I can see that.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

From: nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Storn Cook wrote:

<<     Boy Steve Miller, I hope I get to work with you some day! >>

We have, although Sue Cook served as a go-between, so I'm not sure what ended
up in your hands. (But since Sue is as obsessed with details as I am when it
comes to illos, you probably had plenty of reference.)

We also *almost* worked together at WEG... but damn if Eric Trautmann didn't
keep you booked solid! :)


Steve Miller
Writer of Stuff

And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right.
I've been talking to Jesus all my life.
                             --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me"

######

From: nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6308

Bruce Baugh wrote:

<< I'd like to start a sub-thread. I invite writers, developers, editors, 
and the like to talk about the artists we particularly like, with a 
little discussion about why. Save the knocking for now - let's 
acknowledge the _good_ ones. >>

Off the top of my head and in no particular order (other than the one in which
the artist comes to mind)...

BTW, the common thing shared by these artists is that they take the art
requests they are given and then go beyond the basic requirements by adding
additional elements while still fulfilling the requirements of the illo.
They're artists who understand the purpose of an illustration. (BTW, for every
one listed here, I'm probably leaving one off. I've actually been fairly
lucky... I can only think of three artists who I hope I never have a product
get saddled with ever again.)

Todd Lockwood: Todd reads the mss he's illustrating and then comes back to the
writer with cover suggestion. The cover for 'Carnival' wouldn't have been half
as good if Todd had just followed the original cover decription he was provided
with.

Kevin McCann: Moreso than any other artist who's worked on Ravenloft, Kevin
took the sample visuals he was supplied with and took the visualization of the
Core to a new level. He is one of two or three artists I think ever managed to
properly capture that world. Like Lockwood, McCann pays very close attention to
the text he is illustrating while putting his own spin on the characters. He
draws individuals, not generic figures. 

Jacen Burrows: Jacen is one of two artists I've dealt with who actually
provided character design sketches before actually executing the illos. He
takes somewhat generic characters and breathes life and individuality into
them. Further, his character portraits captures the personalities of the
characters he is illustrating. When I looked at his illos of Ladine
Dralathalas, I said, 'Yup... that's a snooty elf all right.' Jacen also asked
questions when there was something in the illo that was unclear rather than
just forge ahead.

Dennis Cramer: Takes well-established characters and breathes new life into
them. He was asked to do 1/4 page portraits of the heroes from the 'Chronicles'
trilogy for 'Dragonlance Classics 15th Anniversary Edition'... and he ended up
giving us some of the best portrayals of those characters I've seen since Larry
Elmore defined them back in '84/'85. Dennis also gets creative with the layout
of individual illos, using graphic elements to frame action or call out certain
parts.


Steve Miller
Writer of Stuff

And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right.
I've been talking to Jesus all my life.
                             --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me"

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0005121033460.15852-100000@lists.wirebird.com>,
"Karen J. Cravens" <silver+news@phoenyx.net> wrote:

> In other words, you have poor impulse control.  Okay, I can see that.

You must have poor impulse control.  You let fluff dictate your purchasing
decisions.  I buy on the basis of being able to see what the text is.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

From: Phil Masters <phil@philm.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:09:45 +0100
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StornC wrote:
>     Even a bad illo in Champions gets across a sense of personality,
> power type, costume preference in a way that text cannot.

Including, say, Rashindra Etien in *Classic Organizations* (p.142,
description on p.143) and Alan Denby in *Champions Presents* (p.64)?

If the artist doesn't read the author's description, an illustration can
be actively damaging. Even in a superhero game.

(And don't get me started about the T&A illos in C:NM.)

-- 
Phil Masters      *      Home Page: http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/
"Battle not with flamers, lest ye become a flamer; and stare not too
deeply into the 'net, or you will find the 'net staring into you."
                 -- Friedrich Nietzsche (loosely translated)

######

From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6313

<<  Remember, Champions seeks to simulate the world of comics.  Comics are not
novels, are not movies.  They are artwork with words created on paper.  That is
the common language of comics, that is part and parcel of its appeal >>

I might as well bring this up- a recurring flaw in DC HEROES products was a
faliure to provide pictures or even descriptions of some of its heroes and
villains. "The Belle Reve Sourcebook", otherwise excellent, was a major
offender. So here's a case were artwork was clearly called for.

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: 13 May 2000 01:13:56 +0200
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"Wyrdlyng" <wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net> writes:

> "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> news:6u8zxi2bxx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
>
> > That leads to the most annoying type of book: one author writes a
> > text, an other gets commissioned a bit of art, the art is then
> > scattered into the text to "loosen it up".
> >
> > _Such_ artwork is just a waste of time/money of the publisher, and
> > simply a distraction of the readers concentration. But that is because
> > it is part of an badly designed book, not because is is artwork.
>
> These are some good points, but MOST rpgs are like this.

Unfortunately.


> A good
> writer/artist hybrid in the comic book industry is rare enough but I have
> yet to see one in the rpg industry.

Or a good writer and a good artist working together?


> As far as I know, all rpg books are
> written by one person with the artwork being comissioned from several
> artists.

Normal professional specialisation. Getting both to work together
effectively is then a question of good management (which seems to be
astonishingly absent in the RPG industry :-().


> The most common scenario is the writer working from a general
> outline of the book and the artists either being given a similar outline
> sketch or asked for genre art.

Which is what I also suspect.


> Otherwise, the book would come out on
> computergame-type schedules ("sometime in the next 18 months...or so...").

And given that the computer game industry is far more driven by being
the first to employ the newest video card techno-trickery, one really
wonders why RPG developers can not spend the amount of time needed to
have the artists wait for the writers and then draw fitting illustrations
for their game. A simple way to get more product from the same amount
of bucks.


> > Back to the original question: I regard bad/unfitting artwork as a
> > good sign of an shoddy thrown togehter for a cheap sell product. So
> > I will not buy it.
>
> But is it enough to dismiss a work which thus remains essentially unseen?
> Why is the quality of the artwork an instant means of judging the quality of
> the writing?

Because I definitely can not read every book in the store. :-)

I can read about 20 pages an hour, I can view 20 pictures in a minute.
So what evaluation does a book get if I am in a shop with say 5 minutes
per candidate? A few pictures plus an test whether the text around them
fits.


> Isn't that truly judging a book by its cover?

Oops. I did not make it clear, that I was talking about the artwork
inside the book, not the cover.


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic
Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface -
  or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)?

######

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From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: 13 May 2000 01:14:19 +0200
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stornc@aol.com (StornC) writes:

> >Very well put Storn, I had intended to stay out of this thread, but felt
> >obliged to post just recently. I wish I had written this...:-)

I will second his "well put".


>     To, I think, Bruce, who mentioned bad art not giving any support to the
> writing.  This is true in a very general way.  But sometimes, an artist will
> have a piece of artwork in a RPG that is not well done or executed, but still
> gets the idea across.

IMHO the main problem is not badly done (in an artistic sense), but
rather not fitting in (in an story telling sense).


>    I think we can all agree that we want to see "good" art in RPGs.  Although,
> it would be tough to agree on what is "good" art.

Supporting the text, telling the reader stuff that is better said in
pictures than in words? A picture can say more than 100 words, or less
than one. Knowing when to insert a fitting picture is the criterium.


>    But deadlines,

Which ammounts in the end to nothing more than bad management.


>     Industry note:  Many times, artists do not have access to the writing due
> to production schedules.  Artists are working on the artwork at the same time
> writers are finishing the actual book.  What we get is anywhere from a sentence
> to a paragraph of the illo description.

Which is utter bogosity on the part of the people organising the
production. Cutting costs is understandable. Throwing away sensible
(or even neccessary) cooperation of the people being paid to work is
simply stupid.

RPGs simply are not that time critical (no run-away technology like
computer games) to justify such sacrifices for faster time-to-market.

It is not as if the first sets a standard and then can reap the
benefits of user dependancy either.


>     Wow!  I've babbled on much longer than I expected.  Sorry about that.

Nice to see what the makers think. Hope you enjoy my feedback.


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic
Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface -
  or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)?

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: 13 May 2000 01:14:44 +0200
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> In article <6u8zxi2bxx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin
> <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote:
>
> > Back to the original question: I regard bad/unfitting artwork as a
> > good sign of an shoddy thrown togehter for a cheap sell product. So
> > I will not buy it.
>
> Good art, bad text--I will not buy.  Bad art, good text--I will buy.  It's
> that simple.  Art is secondary.

Good art, bad text--I will not buy. Bad art, good text--I will not buy
either.

It is that simple: I demand an top notch product on all fronts. Why
spend on anything less than the best thats possible?


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic
Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface -
  or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)?

######

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On Fri, 12 May 2000, Bryan J. Maloney wrote:

BJM>You must have poor impulse control.  You let fluff dictate your purchasing
BJM>decisions.  I buy on the basis of being able to see what the text is.

You've parroted the phrase, but I don't think you know what it means.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

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bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) writes:

> In article <1zg0rp5c23.fsf@swdocs.rim.net>, Viktor Haag <vhaag@rim.net> wrote:
> 
> >HarnMaster, for example, would be a much less interesting package
> >to me if it didn't contain all that gorgeous Eric Hotz artwork,
> >not to mention the cartography and floorplans.
> 
> Isn't it Hotz who does the maps for Ars Magica, as well? Some
> of the recent tribunal books are nearly worth getting for those
> alone, quite apart from the books' other merits.

Yes, Eric does at least some of the Cartography for Ars
Magica. Although the cartography in the tribunal books isn't
nearly up to the level of quality you can find in HM (but then
I've *never* seen cartography in any game that can match
HarnMaster).


-- 
Viktor Haag                           Senior Technical Writer, RIM
'79 99, '89 9000T, '00 9-3 SE         My opinions are my own, only.

######

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bjm10@cornell.edu (Jubilation T. Cornpone) writes:

> In article <1zg0rp5c23.fsf@swdocs.rim.net>, Viktor Haag <vhaag@rim.net> wrote:
> >bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) writes:
> >
> >> I have never been that dimwitted.  CONTENT is what matters.
> >> For GURPS products, TEXT is content.  Art is almost always mere
> >> fluff and should be considered as such.
> >
> >Glad to know you hold the work of illustrators in such high
> >regard, Bryan. Franklky, I think you're full of crap on this
> >one. A *good* illustrator can provide all sorts of benefit to a
> >game: apart from providing real information value to various
> 
> Name five GURPS products other than Bestiary, Fantasy Folk, or
> SciFi Folk [sic] wherein this has happened.

I was taking issue to your comment in general. With specific
respect to GURPS though, I think your comments are more right
than wrong; however, only because the specific instances of the
art (and its use) fails in most GURPS books.

I think the art in GURPS Japan, GURPS Arabian Nights, GURPS
Swashbucklers, and GURPS New Sun wasn't too hideous or out of
place. However, Steve Jackson games certainly doesn't leap to my
mind when I think of good illustration and illustration put to
good use, and on that point I think you're correct.


-- 
Viktor Haag                           Senior Technical Writer, RIM
'79 99, '89 9000T, '00 9-3 SE         My opinions are my own, only.

######

From: izzylobo@rochester.rr.com (Scott A. Taylor)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Message-ID: <izzylobo-1205001800180001@tmp1-867b.rochester.rr.com>
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In article <8fh2f8$ntd$14@news01.cit.cornell.edu>, bjm10@cornell.edu
(Jubilation T. Cornpone) wrote:

> In article <8fer61$1lc_006@enews.newsguy.com>, bruce-baugh@sff.net
(Bruce Baugh) wrote:
> >In article <bjm10-1105001328420001@potato.cit.cornell.edu>, bjm10@cornell.edu
> > (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote:
> >
> >>That may be the way that art should be used, but it's not how art has
> >>typically been used in GURPS products.
> >
> >Since I've been criticizing GURPS art since before I discovered Usenet, 
> >I both agree and wonder what your point is. Did I say something to 
> >suggest the contrary?
> >
> >
> 
> I quote myself:  "CONTENT is what matters.  For GURPS products, TEXT is 
> content.  Art is almost always mere fluff and should be considered as such."

Bryan, you were just apologizing for being an asshole, and here you are,
still being an asshole.

Goodbye.

*plonk*

-- 
Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have Powerbook, Will Travel

######

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John McMullen wrote:

> 
> As a technical writer, I'd have to agree with Bruce.
> 
> Gaming books need to do three things:
> 
> 1. Introduce the reader to the concepts.
> 2. Explain mechanics clearly and succinctly.
> 3. Refer readers to the appropriate places in the book.
> 4. Inspire the players and the gamemaster.

5.  The game book also needs to introduce and describe the world 
    and scenario to the referee and players.

Elements such as fashion, architecture, and technology are hard to 
describe without using a large amount of text.  This is especially 
the case in SF games.  Thus in books such as Trinity, Fading Suns, 
and the like, artwork can do much of the work in describing the 
setting and giving players a feel for what things look like.

> That said, I've never bought a game because of the artwork. In cases
> where I had a choice between two books with equal quality of text and
> differing quality of artwork, I've gone with the good artwork.

That's the fifth thing artwork does in game books:

5.  Convince the purchaser to buy the book.  

Before the rules can be read, the customer has to be interested 
enough to pick the book up.   Artwork should quickly tell the 
prospective customer something about the product, and hopefully 
convince them to give it a going over.

Then again, I'm biased, because  the last few times I bought a book 
for it's system I got burned badly.  These days mechanics take a 
distinctly second place to the world the book describes, and art is 
definitely a part of the presentation..



-- 

Eric Tolle                                       schaduw@silcom.com
People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress.  
Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of  DNA, 
and now everybody who is somebody uses it!

######

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StornC wrote:
> 
> >I'm still waiting for a RPG illustrated by Brian Froud. I'd buy that
> >even if the mechanics sucked dead donkeys' scrotums.
> 
>     I'm not aware of the name connected to artwork.  Is there any place you can
> check out Brian Froud's work on the net?

He's done a number of projects that I can't think of here, but among
other projects he did the art design for the movie Dark Crystal,
and the associated art book.

The Art book for Dark Crystal is quite a trip, as it's really the 
history of the world of the Dark Crystal, and the entire movie only
takes up the last couple pages.  It does a nice of giving meaning
to many of the disparate elements in the film, and would be a good
thing for prospective RPG world builders to look at for inspiration.


-- 

Eric Tolle                                       schaduw@silcom.com
People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress.  
Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of  DNA, 
and now everybody who is somebody uses it!

######

From: Mike Harvey <michael.harvey@intel.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6426

"Karen J. Cravens" wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 9 May 2000, Wyrdlyng wrote:
> 
> W>Would you skip over an rpg which had excellent mechanics due to poor artwork
> W>or lack of artwork? Should art make that big a difference?
> 
> Yes.  I've skipped over things like GURPS Wizards, a product I'd been
> waiting for, because the cover art unimpressed me so much.  It's not the
> first time, either.

I did the same thing; if it hadn't been for the cover I would have
purchased the book. I did leave my copy of Grimoire intact, but it's
not something I'd leave laying around the house... which makes it
extremely irritating, and also means the book hardly ever gets used.

Mike

######

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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6421

Eric Tolle wrote:
> 
> John McMullen wrote:

> > Gaming books need to do three things:
> >
> > 1. Introduce the reader to the concepts.
> > 2. Explain mechanics clearly and succinctly.
> > 3. Refer readers to the appropriate places in the book.
> > 4. Inspire the players and the gamemaster.
> 
> 5.  The game book also needs to introduce and describe the world
>     and scenario to the referee and players.

<snip>

> That's the fifth thing artwork does in game books:
> 
> 5.  Convince the purchaser to buy the book.

Sixth.

> Before the rules can be read, the customer has to be interested
> enough to pick the book up.   Artwork should quickly tell the
> prospective customer something about the product, and hopefully
> convince them to give it a going over.

It reminds me of something I was taught about food in commercial
cooking:

First, food has to smell good, because if they don't like the smell,
customers won't come into your restaurant. Second, it has to have an
appealing description in the menu, because if it doesn't sound appealing
the customers won't order it. Third, it has to look good, because if it
looks revolting many people won't eat it. Fourth, it has to taste good
and have a good mouth feel, or otherwise that customers won't come back.

That isn't to say that taste and mouth feel are the least important
thing: far from it. But they are the *last* important thing.

Good cover art works, because customers in games shops pick up items
with good cover art. Great rules and setting, like great tasting food,
are much less effective at generating that initial interest. Sure, you
can survive bad cover art: reviews and word-of-mouth advertising can
rescue the product. But it is better not to need rescuing.

As for interior art, I don't think it has much of an effect on my
purchasing decisions. Good fluff doesn't impress me much, and I am used
to even well-designed and professionally-produced games including much
dreadfully bad interior art.

Good illustrations (as opposed to decoration) would make me buy a
product on a flip-through. Clear, useful maps, floorplans and artists
impressions of architecture, costume and armour, and tools and weapons;
a line-up of men and women of different races to illustrate racial
differences and comparative heights and builds. It doesn't have to be
highly-finished (at least not for me), though that is nice. But if I
ever saw an RPG with clear illustrations I would probably buy it.

Regards,


Brett Evill

######

From: George W. Harris <gharrus@mundsprung.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 22:00:07 -0400
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6424

On Fri, 12 May 2000 10:58:22 -0400, bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J.
Maloney) wrote:

:
:
:Well, haven't I been the grand screaming asshole as of late?  

	No, you're the unthinking, natural asshole you've 
always been.


-- 
/buddha@nirvana.net/h:k

George W. Harris  For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'

######

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Neil Franklin wrote:
> 
> "Wyrdlyng" <wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net> writes:
> 
> > "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> > news:6u8zxi2bxx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> >
> > > That leads to the most annoying type of book: one author writes a
> > > text, an other gets commissioned a bit of art, the art is then
> > > scattered into the text to "loosen it up".
> > >
> > > _Such_ artwork is just a waste of time/money of the publisher, and
> > > simply a distraction of the readers concentration. But that is because
> > > it is part of an badly designed book, not because is is artwork.
> >
> > These are some good points, but MOST rpgs are like this.
> 
> Unfortunately.

Yes.

I wonder why no publishers feel the need to break up the text with
artwork in, say, 'The Lord of the Rings'? That is a novel with a couple
of illustrations, but no fluff decoration. And it comes in huge slabs of
unbroken text. Why are there no calls for art to break up the text?

My theory is that this 'graphics to break up the text' theory comes from
layout for magazines. Different branches of the compositor's craft have
different tricks of their different trades. For some reason RPG layout
is based on magazine layout rather than layout for text fiction or
layout for technical manuals.

I did once see an RPG layed out by the compositors at Penguin (it was
called 'Maelstrom'). Sadly it was a distinctly third-rate game, and it
didn't prosper.

Regards,


Brett Evill

######

From: George W. Harris <gharrus@mundsprung.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6423

On Fri, 12 May 2000 13:55:37 GMT, bjm10@cornell.edu (Jubilation T.
Cornpone) wrote:

:In article <cmomhs0m3vhar8sckksourgbt1v7jis33j@4ax.com>, gharrus@mundsprung.com wrote:
:>On Thu, 11 May 2000 13:50:10 -0500, "Karen J. Cravens"
:><silver+news@phoenyx.net> wrote:
:>
:>:So... can I blame my newsfeed for your responses to everyone *but* me
:>:showing up?
:>
:>        He didn't respond to me pointing out that 
:>he's dim-witted, either.  I'll take silence for assent.
:
:No, you're just an idiot.  I cross-posted the thread to encourage interplay.  
:It's not my fault that cultists of the "hard money" superstition got onto it.

	Once again demonstrating the lack of sparkle 
in your brain.  The hard money superstition got onto it 
precisely because of the interplay you wanted to 
encourage.  Anyone with more brains than a sturgeon 
would have understood that.

-- 
"Intelligence is too complex to capture in a single number." -Alfred Binet

George W. Harris  For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'

######

From: George W. Harris <gharrus@mundsprung.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 22:10:52 -0400
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On 12 May 2000 13:58:40 GMT, stornc@aol.com (StornC) wrote:

:>>I bought Champions on the strength of the game system.  The art was
:irrelevant.<<
:
:    Ok, now I have to totally disagree with you.  The art is an important, nay,
:necessary part of Champions.

	Like 'Nipple Woman' on the original cover of 
Champions II.

	(I hope that wasn't one of yours).

:--storn

-- 
When Ramanujan was my age, he had been dead for five years.  -after Tom Lehrer

George W. Harris  For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'

######

From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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>I wonder why no publishers feel the need to break up the text with
>artwork in, say, 'The Lord of the Rings'? That is a novel with a couple
>of illustrations, but no fluff decoration. And it comes in huge slabs of
>unbroken text. Why are there no calls for art to break up the text?
>
>My theory is that this 'graphics to break up the text' theory comes from
>layout for magazines. Different branches of the compositor's craft have
>different tricks of their different trades. For some reason RPG layout
>is based on magazine layout rather than layout for text fiction or
>layout for technical manuals.

This is largely a function of page size... and page sizes in RPG products are
traditionally larger (roughly equivalent to many magazines) because they had to
compete with boxed sets for shelf space historically.

Personally I think that, say, the TRINITY manuals (which are a great size and
price) could do with less art without any harmful side effects. OTOH, I
strongly oppose shrinking an RPG down to the size of a paperback -- too hard to
reference.

Justin Bacon
triad@prairie.lakes.com

######

From: "REZcat" <rezcat@gwis.com>
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
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George W. Harris <gharrus@mundsprung.com> wrote  
  stornc@aol.com (StornC) wrote:
 > :  The art is an important, nay,
> :necessary part of Champions.
> 
> 	Like 'Nipple Woman' on the original cover of 
> Champions II.
> 
> 	(I hope that wasn't one of yours).
 
That would have been a Mark Williams piece IIRC.

######

From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 05:10:15 GMT
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In article <20000513001800.28981.00002573@ng-fk1.aol.com>, triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote:

>price) could do with less art without any harmful side effects. OTOH, I
>strongly oppose shrinking an RPG down to the size of a paperback -- too hard to
>reference.

Certainly a mass market paperback's size is too small. I'm curious if 
you've ever looked at the format White Wolf uses for the Mind's Eye 
Theatre line and the in-character book artifacts like the Book of Nod 
and the Silver Record. I like it a lot, but it's not everyone's cup of 
tea.


-- 
Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
 that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein

######

From: "S. John Ross" <sjohn@io.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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| Certainly a mass market paperback's size is too small. I'm curious if 
| you've ever looked at the format White Wolf uses for the Mind's Eye 
| Theatre line and the in-character book artifacts like the Book of Nod 
| and the Silver Record. I like it a lot, but it's not everyone's cup of 
| tea.

Those are digest-sized, aren't they? I like digest-sized, too ... Original
D&D was digest sized, as was all the early Traveller and Car Wars stuff. As
I understand it, digest-sized stuff was phased out as a possible "standard"
mostly because they vanish on a lot of standard magazine shelves (which
many game shops use). I wish it wasn't so, because I find the more compact
books to be very keen.

|| S. John Ross
|| Husband · Cook · Writer
|| In That Order
|| http://www.io.com/~sjohn/fonts.htm - FONTS FOR GAMERS

######

From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh)
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In article <01bfbca2$00572c20$6f6902d0@john---sandra>, "S. John Ross" <sjohn@io.com> wrote:

>| Certainly a mass market paperback's size is too small. I'm curious if 
>| you've ever looked at the format White Wolf uses for the Mind's Eye 
>| Theatre line and the in-character book artifacts like the Book of Nod 
>| and the Silver Record. 

>Those are digest-sized, aren't they? I like digest-sized, too ... Original
>D&D was digest sized, as was all the early Traveller and Car Wars stuff. As

Pretty much, I think - I'm not up on some terminology, and would yield 
to an informed opinion.

>I understand it, digest-sized stuff was phased out as a possible "standard"
>mostly because they vanish on a lot of standard magazine shelves (which
>many game shops use). I wish it wasn't so, because I find the more compact
>books to be very keen.

Yeah. They're easier to shelve, easier to read, and they reduce the 
perceived need for more art. MET goes with one frontispiece per chapter 
and almost nothing else, which pleases my Scots ancestry. :)


-- 
Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
 that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein

######

From: Phil Masters <phil@philm.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 11:06:48 +0100
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Neil Franklin wrote:
> RPGs simply are not that time critical (no run-away technology like
> computer games) to justify such sacrifices for faster time-to-market.

This really, really should be true. However, there is evidence - or at
least a widespread perception - that much of the RPG market is in fact
impatient, whimsical, intolerant of detail, and more easily fooled by
flash than by careful attention to deep quality.

People may *say* they'd rather have it good than have it now, but...

> It is not as if the first sets a standard and then can reap the
> benefits of user dependancy either.

Well, arguably that's the best explanation for why D&D is still king of
the sandbox...

-- 
Phil Masters      *      Home Page: http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/
"Battle not with flamers, lest ye become a flamer; and stare not too
deeply into the 'net, or you will find the 'net staring into you."
                 -- Friedrich Nietzsche (loosely translated)

######

From: izzylobo@rochester.rr.com (Scott A. Taylor)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <8fj18q$33k_002@enews.newsguy.com>, bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce
Baugh) wrote:

> In article <01bfbca2$00572c20$6f6902d0@john---sandra>, "S. John Ross"
<sjohn@io.com> wrote:
> 
> >| Certainly a mass market paperback's size is too small. I'm curious if 
> >| you've ever looked at the format White Wolf uses for the Mind's Eye 
> >| Theatre line and the in-character book artifacts like the Book of Nod 
> >| and the Silver Record. 
> 
> >Those are digest-sized, aren't they? I like digest-sized, too ... Original
> >D&D was digest sized, as was all the early Traveller and Car Wars stuff. As
> 
> Pretty much, I think - I'm not up on some terminology, and would yield 
> to an informed opinion.
> 
> >I understand it, digest-sized stuff was phased out as a possible "standard"
> >mostly because they vanish on a lot of standard magazine shelves (which
> >many game shops use). I wish it wasn't so, because I find the more compact
> >books to be very keen.
> 
> Yeah. They're easier to shelve, easier to read, and they reduce the 
> perceived need for more art. MET goes with one frontispiece per chapter 
> and almost nothing else, which pleases my Scots ancestry. :)

The paucity of artwork in the Mind's Eye Theater books depends in part on
the fact that Mind's Eye is set in what is basically a modern world, and
therefore does not need much in the way of explanatory imaging.  A game
set in medieval Europe, or in the Third Imperium, or in an even more
fantastic setting (Jorune, Talislanta, etc.)  would need more artwork, and
in a digest format, this can be harder to include while keeping a regular
layout format.  It can be done, as witnessed by the Providence books, some
of which are done it in lightning print format, and there therefore
basically digest size.

The availability of lightning print for small press work means that I
think we're going to see more digest size to books appearing on shelves. 
Providence, some of the Conspiracy X books, Nobilis, etc. are proving that
this format can be a profitable one, although we have yet to see, in
recent years, a game in this format (other than the MET books where the
format is a necessary compromise, and there are many factors going into
the high sales of these books) that has proven to be a real high seller. 
Whether this has to do with the format of the books, the subject material
of the games that are produced in this format, or some other factors, is
unknown.

-- 
Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have Powerbook, Will Travel

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: 13 May 2000 22:57:23 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
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Brett Evill <b.evill@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> writes:

> Neil Franklin wrote:
> >
> > "Wyrdlyng" <wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net> writes:
> >
> > > "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> > >
> > > > _Such_ artwork is just a waste of time/money of the publisher, and
> > > > simply a distraction of the readers concentration. But that is because
> > > > it is part of an badly designed book, not because is is artwork.
> > >
> > > These are some good points, but MOST rpgs are like this.
> >
> > Unfortunately.
>
> Yes.
>
> I wonder why no publishers feel the need to break up the text with
> artwork in, say, 'The Lord of the Rings'? That is a novel with a couple
> of illustrations, but no fluff decoration.

Perhaps the talent of Tolkien in writing descriptive text?

Perhaps the relative lack of pictures made by/with Tolkien that would
actually add authoral content?

Actually there are a few illustrations (mainly maps). And in "The
Hobbit" there are actually a few Tolkien-drawn pictures of how he
visualised the setting (I have the 1953 A&U edition).


> And it comes in huge slabs of
> unbroken text. Why are there no calls for art to break up the text?

Actually there do exist "Illustrated Ring" versions with pictures from
Allan Lee or Ted Nasmith. But these are productions of publishers
wanting to sell more exemplars, not stuff that Tolkien himself made.

And yes, they do sell. But they do that for the artwork, must buyers
allready have the text-only versions.


> My theory is that this 'graphics to break up the text' theory comes from
> layout for magazines. Different branches of the compositor's craft have
> different tricks of their different trades. For some reason RPG layout
> is based on magazine layout rather than layout for text fiction or
> layout for technical manuals.

Not text fiction, but technical manuals today are also often over-full
with silly decorations. Such things as an schematic finger next to an
important tip, etc...


Just thought of this: perhaps we are seeing here the RPG equivalent of
desktop publishings "font mess" phase, when users new to the craft
thought they just had to exercise every feature in sight.

Pictures simply are cheaply possible, so they go in.


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic
Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface -
  or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)?

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: 13 May 2000 23:04:50 +0200
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Phil Masters <phil@philm.demon.co.uk> writes:

> Neil Franklin wrote:
> > RPGs simply are not that time critical (no run-away technology like
> > computer games) to justify such sacrifices for faster time-to-market.
>
> This really, really should be true. However, there is evidence - or at
> least a widespread perception - that much of the RPG market is in fact
> impatient, whimsical, intolerant of detail, and more easily fooled by
> flash than by careful attention to deep quality.

Interesting. Does this perception have any base in reality? Are a
large slice of real roleplayers like that? (None that I know are.)


> > It is not as if the first sets a standard and then can reap the
> > benefits of user dependancy either.
>
> Well, arguably that's the best explanation for why D&D is still king of
> the sandbox...

Isn't that more the result of strong brand name marketing? Particulary
among new people entering the field?

As much as I dislike TSR/WoTC/Hasbro, one thing they do have is
professional marketing. Most other publishers seem to be idealists who
rely on word-to-mouth. That is good to take over dissatisfied insiders,
but it leaves all them newbies to first go to the marketed stuff.

P.S. I started with Runequest, but only because I entered roleplaying
called by an old-timer (who was on an active search for new players).
Before that I had only ever heard of D&D.


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic
Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface -
  or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)?

######

From: James Wallis <james@erstwhile.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 11:29:03 +0100
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In article <391CB756.173F@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>, Brett Evill
<b.evill@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> writes
>I did once see an RPG layed out by the compositors at Penguin (it was
>called 'Maelstrom'). Sadly it was a distinctly third-rate game, and it
>didn't prosper.

Maelstrom sold over 50,000 copies and was translated into three
languages. Your standards for "didn't prosper" are evidently very high.

-- 
James Wallis
Director of Hogshead Publishing Ltd          (james@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Posting this from his home address          (james@erstwhile.demon.co.uk)
Games, CDs, 2nd-hand stuff I'm selling   http://www.erstwhile.demon.co.uk

######

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Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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On Sat, 13 May 2000, James Wallis wrote:

JW>In article <391CB756.173F@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>, Brett Evill
JW><b.evill@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> writes
JW>>I did once see an RPG layed out by the compositors at Penguin (it was
JW>>called 'Maelstrom'). Sadly it was a distinctly third-rate game, and it
JW>>didn't prosper.
JW>
JW>Maelstrom sold over 50,000 copies and was translated into three
JW>languages. Your standards for "didn't prosper" are evidently very high.

Is that the same Maelstrom, though?  The one I've got (Hubris Games)
doesn't say anything about penguins.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Bruce Baugh wrote:
>Certainly a mass market paperback's size is too small. I'm curious if 
>you've ever looked at the format White Wolf uses for the Mind's Eye 
>Theatre line and the in-character book artifacts like the Book of Nod 
>and the Silver Record. I like it a lot, but it's not everyone's cup of 
>tea.

I liked it for the Book of Nod (it felt and looked good), but I feel it's just
a touch too small for easy reference -- too hard to keep the pages open. The
Trinity format is good for me, since a minor weight laid across the pages will
generally keep it open without too much hassle.

The one thing I really like about the standard RPG format is the fact that I
can open the average manual up and lay it on the table and it won't flip itself
closed.

In other words, the Trinity manuals are a little harder to keep open -- but
there's less need for art and they're an easier size to read and store. On a
total tangent, I've recently been thinking about how this would be an ideal
size for SF fiction magazines -- large enough to support artwork and to be
visible on the shelf; small enough to be a comfortable read.

Justin Bacon
triad@prairie.lakes.com

######

From: xethair@concordant-thought.com (Robert Braddock)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <8fh2cl$ntd$13@news01.cit.cornell.edu>, Jubilation T. Cornpone
(Bryan J Maloney) wrote:
>In that case, you NEVER BUY GAMES, right???

Not often, but whenever there's some interesting system tidbit or source
material, or in cases where I'm in someone else's game, I'll sometimes get
some books to look at at home (that's why I have a few gurps books). I
stated pretty clearly before I didn't intend to represent the general rpg
consumers.

The point was that there's more to a game product than just rules, and the
"you're fools swayed by flash over substance" argument is not nearly as
righteous as you seem to think.

>For such an uninteresting view, you show a lot of interest.

Your view was entirely "art is irrelevant" and you never said more than that
(in the messages I read) unless to take time for insults. In a thread about
the possible values of art, someone who just keeps saying "art is useless.
you are an idiot" really doesn't add. Without saying any more about it than
that, your view is quite uninteresting. At least I bothered to explain my
view. Again, you discuss with all the participation and depth of a parrot.

>>You obviously make no attempt to understand what's being said to you and are
>I understand.  Understanding does not guarantee agreement.  Only the arrogant, 

No, in several instances you clearly failed to get (or perhaps even read)
what you were responding to, and just continued the pointless "me right. you
dumb" tactic. Since you obviously don't care what anyone else says and
clearly don't like art, I remain confused about your "participation" in the
thread, aside from the fact that you posts just amount to "ME! ME! MEEEE!"
and I know some people find that to be quite worthwhile.

So are you going to attack me with something actually meaningful, or just
keep tossing out things that you think sound important. Since I doubt I'll
waste any more time or public forum space on you, neither would be the best
use of you time.

[Oh, and I just noticed you made a bit of an apology elsewhere in the
thread. I'm suprised you posted this after that, but it's nice to see you
are at least a little aware.]


--
Robert Braddock

######

Message-ID: <391DFD27.B98@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>
From: Brett Evill <b.evill@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>
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James Wallis wrote:
> 
> In article <391CB756.173F@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>, Brett Evill
> <b.evill@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> writes
> >I did once see an RPG layed out by the compositors at Penguin (it was
> >called 'Maelstrom'). Sadly it was a distinctly third-rate game, and it
> >didn't prosper.
> 
> Maelstrom sold over 50,000 copies and was translated into three
> languages. Your standards for "didn't prosper" are evidently very high.

I'm astonished. Are we talking about the same game? The one published by
Penguin Books? The one that used a single d6 roll in resolution and
permitted a magician to achieve anything, even the impossible, on a roll
of six?

It was cheap, I guess. Perhaps lots of people bought it but didn't play
it for long. I'd hardly call that 'prospering'.

Regards,


Brett Evill

######

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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6459

Phil Masters wrote:
> 
> Neil Franklin wrote:
> > RPGs simply are not that time critical (no run-away technology like
> > computer games) to justify such sacrifices for faster time-to-market.
> 
> This really, really should be true. However, there is evidence - or at
> least a widespread perception - that much of the RPG market is in fact
> impatient, whimsical, intolerant of detail, and more easily fooled by
> flash than by careful attention to deep quality.

Well, I have to confess that that is the opinion I hold of a lot of my
roleplaying acquaintances, and I notice that the ones like that buy a
lot more RPG material than my more critical friends do. Are we 'less
superficial' types an untapped potential market? Or are we few, and
inclined to buy less material anyway? I suspect the latter.

Regards,


Brett Evill

######

Message-ID: <391E0366.D7ACB28E@silcom.com>
From: Eric Tolle <schaduw@silcom.com>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6431

Brett Evill wrote:
> 
> Eric Tolle wrote:
> >
> > John McMullen wrote:

> > 5.  The game book also needs to introduce and describe the world
> >     and scenario to the referee and players.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > That's the fifth thing artwork does in game books:
> >
> > 5.  Convince the purchaser to buy the book.
> 
> Sixth.

Ah-heh.  Right.  Silly me.
 
> > Before the rules can be read, the customer has to be interested
> > enough to pick the book up.   Artwork should quickly tell the

> It reminds me of something I was taught about food in commercial
> cooking:

An excellent analogy.

> As for interior art, I don't think it has much of an effect on my
> purchasing decisions. Good fluff doesn't impress me much, and I am used
> to even well-designed and professionally-produced games including much
> dreadfully bad interior art.

Primarily I'd say it's a factor in my purchases to see if I want to
look through a book enough to see if the rest is worth buying.  Of
course in some books, the artwork is more important then in others-
the artwork in say, a technical manual or "ships of the line" book 
is a larger factor then in a set of generic rules.  

> 
> Good illustrations (as opposed to decoration) would make me buy a
> product on a flip-through. Clear, useful maps, floorplans and artists
> impressions of architecture, costume and armour, and tools and weapons;
> a line-up of men and women of different races to illustrate racial
> differences and comparative heights and builds. It doesn't have to be
> highly-finished (at least not for me), though that is nice. But if I
> ever saw an RPG with clear illustrations I would probably buy it.

In this case, the artwork doesn't count as "fluff", but rather as 
information content, the same way that text is.  A perfect example
of "useful illustration" would be the ship books for Traveller, 
the the World Builder's Sourcebook, Albedo, etc.  Such illustrations
give a very strong feel for what the technology and world looks 
like.

The above is why in general I tend to consider illustration to be 
more important in SF genre games then in fantasy or contemporary 
ones.  There are some exceptions of course- an illustration of 
weapons and armor in early AD&D would have avoided quite a bit of 
confusion...



-- 

Eric Tolle                                       schaduw@silcom.com
People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress.  
Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of  DNA, 
and now everybody who is somebody uses it!

######

From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6448

In article <20000513194228.18325.00001318@ng-fj1.aol.com>, triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote:

>I liked it for the Book of Nod (it felt and looked good), but I feel it's just
>a touch too small for easy reference -- too hard to keep the pages open.

Taht's a reasonable enough objection. Next question: how does spiral 
binding grab you? I know that I think the original edition of Trinity is 
God's gift to gaming just for that (and I can live iwthout the plastic 
cover, but that's another rant), and again know that not everyone 
agrees. :)

>there's less need for art and they're an easier size to read and store. On a
>total tangent, I've recently been thinking about how this would be an ideal
>size for SF fiction magazines -- large enough to support artwork and to be
>visible on the shelf; small enough to be a comfortable read.

Yeah, it would.


-- 
Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
 that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein

######

From: Matt Goodman <news@heliograph.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Message-ID: <130520002355254211%news@heliograph.com>
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In article <izzylobo-1305001030010001@tmp1-86a6.rochester.rr.com>,
Scott A. Taylor <izzylobo@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

> The availability of lightning print for small press work means that I
> think we're going to see more digest size to books appearing on shelves. 

Lightning Print does full size game books now (8.25 in x 11 in) so you
don't have to do trade paperback size books to use Lightning Print.

We're doing both: TRMGS, Forgotten Futures, and Tesla will all be 6in
by 9in, but our Space: 1889 reprints will be the same size as the
original printings.

Matt
For details about our books, see http://www.heliograph.com

######

From: James Wallis <james@erstwhile.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0005131823020.22234-100000@lists.wirebird.com>
, Karen J. Cravens <silver+news@phoenyx.net> writes
>
>Is that the same Maelstrom, though?  The one I've got (Hubris Games)
>doesn't say anything about penguins.

Brett and I are talking about "Maelstrom" by Alex Scott, an RPG set in
Tudor England and published as an A-format paperback book by Penguin in
1984. At least, I assume that's what Brett's talking about.

-- 
James Wallis
Director of Hogshead Publishing Ltd          (james@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Posting this from his home address          (james@erstwhile.demon.co.uk)
Games, CDs, 2nd-hand stuff I'm selling   http://www.erstwhile.demon.co.uk

######

From: James Wallis <james@erstwhile.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <391DFD27.B98@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>, Brett Evill
<b.evill@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> writes
>James Wallis wrote:
>> 
>> In article <391CB756.173F@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>, Brett Evill
>> <b.evill@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> writes
>> >I did once see an RPG layed out by the compositors at Penguin (it was
>> >called 'Maelstrom'). Sadly it was a distinctly third-rate game, and it
>> >didn't prosper.
>> 
>> Maelstrom sold over 50,000 copies and was translated into three
>> languages. Your standards for "didn't prosper" are evidently very high.
>
>I'm astonished. Are we talking about the same game? The one published by
>Penguin Books? The one that used a single d6 roll in resolution and
>permitted a magician to achieve anything, even the impossible, on a roll
>of six?

An RPG that allows magicians to do the impossible? Surely not.

>It was cheap, I guess. Perhaps lots of people bought it but didn't play
>it for long. I'd hardly call that 'prospering'.

It still has a fan-base in the UK. For a while we were seriously
considering republishing it.

-- 
James Wallis
Director of Hogshead Publishing Ltd          (james@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Posting this from his home address          (james@erstwhile.demon.co.uk)
Games, CDs, 2nd-hand stuff I'm selling   http://www.erstwhile.demon.co.uk

######

Message-ID: <391E7698.3402@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>
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James Wallis wrote:
> 
> In article <391DFD27.B98@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>, Brett Evill
> <b.evill@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> writes
> >James Wallis wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <391CB756.173F@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>, Brett Evill
> >> <b.evill@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> writes
> >> >I did once see an RPG layed out by the compositors at Penguin (it was
> >> >called 'Maelstrom'). Sadly it was a distinctly third-rate game, and it
> >> >didn't prosper.
> >>
> >> Maelstrom sold over 50,000 copies and was translated into three
> >> languages. Your standards for "didn't prosper" are evidently very high.
> >
> >I'm astonished. Are we talking about the same game? The one published by
> >Penguin Books? The one that used a single d6 roll in resolution and
> >permitted a magician to achieve anything, even the impossible, on a roll
> >of six?
> 
> An RPG that allows magicians to do the impossible? Surely not.

Incredible though it sounds, that is how the game rules defined the
upper limits of magician's power. A magician facing any obstacle at all
could do the impossible, say, force God to change his mind, turn the
planet Mars into solid gold, or make black be white, one roll in six.

> >It was cheap, I guess. Perhaps lots of people bought it but didn't play
> >it for long. I'd hardly call that 'prospering'.
> 
> It still has a fan-base in the UK. For a while we were seriously
> considering republishing it.

Colour me astonished.

######

Message-ID: <391E7725.47E5@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>
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James Wallis wrote:
> 
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0005131823020.22234-100000@lists.wirebird.com>
> , Karen J. Cravens <silver+news@phoenyx.net> writes
> >
> >Is that the same Maelstrom, though?  The one I've got (Hubris Games)
> >doesn't say anything about penguins.
> 
> Brett and I are talking about "Maelstrom" by Alex Scott, an RPG set in
> Tudor England and published as an A-format paperback book by Penguin in
> 1984. At least, I assume that's what Brett's talking about.

That sounds about right. Though my (necessarily distant and therefore
dim) recollection is of something smaller than A4.

Regards,


Brett Evill

######

From: Phil Masters <phil@philm.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:22:17 +0100
Organization: P.J.Masters (Software & Writing) Ltd.
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6442

Neil Franklin wrote:
> > This really, really should be true. However, there is evidence - or at
> > least a widespread perception - that much of the RPG market is in fact
> > impatient, whimsical, intolerant of detail, and more easily fooled by
> > flash than by careful attention to deep quality.
> 
> Interesting. Does this perception have any base in reality? Are a
> large slice of real roleplayers like that? (None that I know are.)

Well, there's an awful lot of under-edited games have sold rather
well...

> > > It is not as if the first sets a standard and then can reap the
> > > benefits of user dependancy either.
> >
> > Well, arguably that's the best explanation for why D&D is still king 
> > of the sandbox...
> 
> Isn't that more the result of strong brand name marketing? Particulary
> among new people entering the field?

And the strong brand name comes from where?

TSR have been talking a bit about their "network" recently - the pool of
fellow-players that players can draw on to find a group. They seem to
think that having the biggest network gives them a killer advantage.
That could be interpreted as claiming the advantage of being first in
and the *de facto* standard.

Which is not to say that they're bad at marketing either. It all works
together quite nicely.

-- 
Phil Masters      *      Home Page: http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/
"Battle not with flamers, lest ye become a flamer; and stare not too
deeply into the 'net, or you will find the 'net staring into you."
                 -- Friedrich Nietzsche (loosely translated)

######

From: James Wallis <james@erstwhile.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:23:21 +0100
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6463

In article <391E7725.47E5@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>, Brett Evill
<b.evill@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> writes
>James Wallis wrote:
>> 
>> In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0005131823020.22234-100000@lists.wirebird.com>
>> , Karen J. Cravens <silver+news@phoenyx.net> writes
>> >
>> >Is that the same Maelstrom, though?  The one I've got (Hubris Games)
>> >doesn't say anything about penguins.
>> 
>> Brett and I are talking about "Maelstrom" by Alex Scott, an RPG set in
>> Tudor England and published as an A-format paperback book by Penguin in
>> 1984. At least, I assume that's what Brett's talking about.
>
>That sounds about right. Though my (necessarily distant and therefore
>dim) recollection is of something smaller than A4.

A-format is smaller than A4 -- it's about 8x5 -- but larger than a
normal paperback.

-- 
James Wallis
Director of Hogshead Publishing Ltd          (james@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Posting this from his home address          (james@erstwhile.demon.co.uk)
Games, CDs, 2nd-hand stuff I'm selling   http://www.erstwhile.demon.co.uk

######

From: Phil Masters <phil@philm.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:24:53 +0100
Organization: P.J.Masters (Software & Writing) Ltd.
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6443

Brett Evill wrote:
> Well, I have to confess that that is the opinion I hold of a lot of my
> roleplaying acquaintances, and I notice that the ones like that buy a
> lot more RPG material than my more critical friends do. Are we 'less
> superficial' types an untapped potential market? Or are we few, and
> inclined to buy less material anyway? I suspect the latter.

I agree with your suspicion. Given the choice between marketing to
uncritical people who buy lots, or fussy sods who buy less, what do
*you* think is the more profitable option?

Anyway, the fussy types aren't an untapped market. There's plenty of
products out there aimed at them. They just sell less.

-- 
Phil Masters      *      Home Page: http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/
"Battle not with flamers, lest ye become a flamer; and stare not too
deeply into the 'net, or you will find the 'net staring into you."
                 -- Friedrich Nietzsche (loosely translated)

######

Message-ID: <391E86AD.1EE2@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6465

James Wallis wrote:
> 
> >> Brett and I are talking about "Maelstrom" by Alex Scott, an RPG set in
> >> Tudor England and published as an A-format paperback book by Penguin in
> >> 1984. At least, I assume that's what Brett's talking about.
> >
> >That sounds about right. Though my (necessarily distant and therefore
> >dim) recollection is of something smaller than A4.
> 
> A-format is smaller than A4 -- it's about 8x5 -- but larger than a
> normal paperback.

My mistake. Sorry.

Regards,


Brett Evill

######

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
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On Sun, 14 May 2000, James Wallis wrote:

JW>Brett and I are talking about "Maelstrom" by Alex Scott, an RPG set in
JW>Tudor England and published as an A-format paperback book by Penguin in
JW>1984. At least, I assume that's what Brett's talking about.

It sure sounds like you're talking about two different Maelstroms,
though.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." <richberg@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:54:03 -0400
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6473

Geez, guys, I wish these points had come up on the 'movie'/PoF' thread!

Examples, with selective editting:
(Names 'quoted' as reference.
They made these statements about RPG's not flicks.)

'Neil':

This really, really should be true. However, there is evidence - or at
least a widespread perception - that much of the theatre market is in
fact
impatient, whimsical, intolerant of detail, and more easily fooled by
flash than by careful attention to deep quality.

'Brett':

Well, I have to confess that that is the opinion I hold of a lot of my
movie-going acquaintances, and I notice that the ones like that see a
lot more films than my more critical friends do. Are we 'less
superficial' types an untapped potential market? Or are we few, and
inclined to see less anyway? I suspect the latter.

'Phil':

I agree with your suspicion. Given the choice between marketing to
uncritical people who watch lots, or fussy sods who watch less, what do
*you* think is the more profitable option?

######

From: ed <edhogg@equus.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:10:08 +0100
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The noble "Karen J. Cravens" <silver+news@phoenyx.net> spake on the day
of Sun, 14 May 2000 08:18:03 -0500:

>On Sun, 14 May 2000, James Wallis wrote:
>
>JW>Brett and I are talking about "Maelstrom" by Alex Scott, an RPG set in
>JW>Tudor England and published as an A-format paperback book by Penguin in
>JW>1984. At least, I assume that's what Brett's talking about.
>
>It sure sounds like you're talking about two different Maelstroms,
>though.

You are.

The Maelstrom you are talking about is one that is one of these
"Cross-Roads between Worlds RPGs for the Story-Engine from Hubris.

The one Brett and James are talking about is a Trade sized paperback
book set in late Tudor England. Had potential and I wish I still had my
copy.

ed
-- 
edhogg@equus.demon.co.uk           |  Dragons Rescued  |      _////  
http://www.equus.demon.co.uk/      |  Maidens Slain    |   o_/o ///  
For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, RPGs, |  Quests P.O.A.    |  __\   ///__
Science-Fiction and other stuff    |                   |      <*>

######

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On Sun, 14 May 2000, ed wrote:

e>You are.

No, I'm only talking about one.  :}

e>The Maelstrom you are talking about is one that is one of these
e>"Cross-Roads between Worlds RPGs for the Story-Engine from Hubris.

Right.

e>The one Brett and James are talking about is a Trade sized paperback
e>book set in late Tudor England. Had potential and I wish I still had my
e>copy.

Right.  Except it still sounds like they're talking about two different
games.  (Or rather, the first messages did.)

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

From: ed <edhogg@equus.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:14:37 +0100
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The noble "Karen J. Cravens" <silver+news@phoenyx.net> spake on the day
of Sun, 14 May 2000 14:13:44 -0500:


>Right.  Except it still sounds like they're talking about two different
>games.  (Or rather, the first messages did.)

Or two different perspectives on the same game

ed
-- 
edhogg@equus.demon.co.uk           |  Dragons Rescued  |      _////  
http://www.equus.demon.co.uk/      |  Maidens Slain    |   o_/o ///  
For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, RPGs, |  Quests P.O.A.    |  __\   ///__
Science-Fiction and other stuff    |                   |      <*>

######

From: nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Brett Evill wrote:

<< The one that used a single d6 roll in resolution and
permitted a magician to achieve anything, even the impossible, on a roll
of six? >>

Naw. That's NUELOW. :)


Steve Miller
Writer of Stuff

And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right.
I've been talking to Jesus all my life.
                             --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me"

######

From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Bruce Baugh wrote:
>Taht's a reasonable enough objection. Next question: how does spiral 
>binding grab you? I know that I think the original edition of Trinity is 
>God's gift to gaming just for that (and I can live iwthout the plastic 
>cover, but that's another rant), and again know that not everyone 
>agrees. :)

Loved the spiral binding on the limited edition version of Trinity. I know some
people had trouble with it (tearing of pages), but I never did. Personally I
*really* like the black plastic, and if my local store knocks down the price on
their remaindered copies another $5-10 (to the $10-15 price range), I'll
probably grab another one "just in case". I didn't like the regular
spiral-bound edition of Trinity, however -- it wasn't a very appealing package,
IMO.

######

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On Sun, 14 May 2000, ed wrote:

e>Or two different perspectives on the same game

No, that's what they *are* discussing; I was talking about what it looked
like they were discussing.

-- 
Karen "Dodgson" Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <20000514210035.27335.00003045@ng-fj1.aol.com>, triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote:

>Loved the spiral binding on the limited edition version of Trinity. I know some
>people had trouble with it (tearing of pages), but I never did.

Bryant Durrell and I each experimented with holding the book by the back 
page and shaking vigorously. No tearing.

>probably grab another one "just in case". I didn't like the regular
>spiral-bound edition of Trinity, however -- it wasn't a very appealing package,
>IMO.

Agreed, alas.


-- 
Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
 that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein

######

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"Karen J. Cravens" wrote:

> On Thu, 11 May 2000, Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
> BJM>Cover art?  CONTENT is what matters.  I don't play a game with the COVER
> BJM>ART.  I play a game with the RULES.
>
> Yes, rules matter.  But am I willing to put up with offensive cover art
> merely to play with a particular set of rules?
>
> The answer there is a big fat "no."  I did that once, with the Grimoire...
> cut-and-punched the critter, and tossed the cover in the trash.  Then I
> said to myself, "Why did I pay for something I intended to throw away?"

    Eek, a depiciction of a demon! In a book with gate spells no less.

> So if another edition of Wizards comes out with a reasonable cover, I'll
> buy it.  If not, I'll spend my money elsewhere.  That doesn't mean I'll
> buy something with a pretty cover and bad rules.  It just means I won't
> buy something I find unpleasant.  Does that seem unreasonable?

    Oh my dog. That depiction of a woman isn't wearing clothes! Or was it the
familiar, perhaps the use of magic? The floating spellbook? Red hair?
    I think you're a freak for finding that unpleasant (gotta love opinions),
but the following descion was fairly normal based on that.

    I can only hope you are tolerent enough to let others in your group use the
material in the "offensive" book, if they want to splash out on the purchase
(campain balance assumed OK).


    As to the topic of this thread, I barely look at the art. Inspiration is
easier gained from text for me. Art or tables make a good visual index, and
break topics to make reading dense topics easier.

--
  tussock

Sarcasm is the lowest form of humor. 8]

######

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On Sat, 13 May 2000, Phil Masters wrote:

> Neil Franklin wrote:
> > RPGs simply are not that time critical (no run-away technology like
> > computer games) to justify such sacrifices for faster time-to-market.
> 
> This really, really should be true. However, there is evidence - or at
> least a widespread perception - that much of the RPG market is in fact
> impatient, whimsical, intolerant of detail, and more easily fooled by
> flash than by careful attention to deep quality.

No! Say it's not so, Phil!

######

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On Sat, 13 May 2000, Brett Evill wrote:

> My theory is that this 'graphics to break up the text' theory comes from
> layout for magazines. Different branches of the compositor's craft have
> different tricks of their different trades. For some reason RPG layout
> is based on magazine layout rather than layout for text fiction or
> layout for technical manuals.

I believe you are correct. For interesting counter-examples, see the
original Traveller "black books" line. 0-1 illustrations per book, but
excellent graphic design layout with text that, despite the small size,
was a pleasure on the eyes.

######

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On 13 May 2000, S. John Ross wrote:

> 
> D&D was digest sized, as was all the early Traveller and Car Wars stuff. As
> I understand it, digest-sized stuff was phased out as a possible "standard"
> mostly because they vanish on a lot of standard magazine shelves (which
> many game shops use). I wish it wasn't so, because I find the more compact
> books to be very keen.

Didja get BESM, Big Robots, Cool Starships or Hot Rods and Gun Bunnies?

######

From: "S. John Ross" <sjohn@io.com>
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| > D&D was digest sized, as was all the early Traveller and Car Wars
stuff. As
| > I understand it, digest-sized stuff was phased out as a possible
"standard"
| > mostly because they vanish on a lot of standard magazine shelves (which
| > many game shops use). I wish it wasn't so, because I find the more
compact
| > books to be very keen.
| 
| Didja get BESM, Big Robots, Cool Starships or Hot Rods and Gun Bunnies?

[gulp] I WANTED TO ...

But no [sob].

But I want to.

I'm poor.
 
|| S. John Ross
|| Husband · Cook · Writer
|| In That Order
|| http://www.io.com/~sjohn/fonts.htm - FONTS FOR GAMERS

######

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Neil Franklin wrote:
> 
> "Wyrdlyng" <wyrdlyng@bellsouth.net> writes:

<snip>

> > A good
> > writer/artist hybrid in the comic book industry is rare enough but I have
> > yet to see one in the rpg industry.
> 
> Or a good writer and a good artist working together?

	Jon Foster and his work for WOTC on the Alternity line.

> > As far as I know, all rpg books are
> > written by one person with the artwork being comissioned from several
> > artists.
> 
> Normal professional specialisation. Getting both to work together
> effectively is then a question of good management (which seems to be
> astonishingly absent in the RPG industry :-().
> 
	Actually, WOTC with the Alternity line didn't seem to have any problem
with matching text with great pictures.

Allister H.

######

From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@teleport.com>
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Bruce Baugh wrote:
> 
> In article <20000514210035.27335.00003045@ng-fj1.aol.com>, triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote:
> 
> >Loved the spiral binding on the limited edition version of Trinity. I know some
> >people had trouble with it (tearing of pages), but I never did.
> 
> Bryant Durrell and I each experimented with holding the book by the back
> page and shaking vigorously. No tearing.

After I met Bryant and Bruce, and Bryant explained this, I tried
it...same thing.

> >probably grab another one "just in case". I didn't like the regular
> >spiral-bound edition of Trinity, however -- it wasn't a very appealing package,
> >IMO.
> 
> Agreed, alas.

It was funky and inconvenient. But it damned well stayed open when you
laid it flat.

-- 
Deird'Re M. Brooks   | xenya@teleport.com |  cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
 -- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya

######

From: John Scott <j.f.scott@brighton.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:05:28 +0100
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6605

In article <391DFD27.B98@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>, Brett Evill
<b.evill@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> wrote:

> James Wallis wrote:
> > 
> > In article <391CB756.173F@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>, Brett Evill
> > <b.evill@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> writes
> > >I did once see an RPG layed out by the compositors at Penguin (it was
> > >called 'Maelstrom'). Sadly it was a distinctly third-rate game, and it
> > >didn't prosper.
> > 
> > Maelstrom sold over 50,000 copies and was translated into three
> > languages. Your standards for "didn't prosper" are evidently very high.
> 
> I'm astonished. Are we talking about the same game? The one published by
> Penguin Books? The one that used a single d6 roll in resolution and
> permitted a magician to achieve anything, even the impossible, on a roll
> of six?

Maelstrom, by Alexander Scott.  Elizabethan/Jacobean roleplaying.
Published by Penguin.

Didn't use a D6 as the sole resolution system though - percentiles were
involved, and whilst a Mage doing a level 5 effect could do the
impossible, to do that level 5 effect they had to remember the spell (a
mind roll at -50) and then cast it (another roll at -50).  So hardly a
1 in six chance.

John

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6621

In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0005121424460.16815-100000@lists.wirebird.com>,
"Karen J. Cravens" <silver+news@phoenyx.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 12 May 2000, Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
> 
> BJM>You must have poor impulse control.  You let fluff dictate your purchasing
> BJM>decisions.  I buy on the basis of being able to see what the text is.
> 
> You've parroted the phrase, but I don't think you know what it means.

I know what it means.  You accuse me of acting on impulse rather than
consideration because I let the content of a game influence my purchasing
decision more than mere fluff like a cover picture.  I, on the other hand,
accuse you of acting on impulse rather than consideration because you let
the cover picture of a game influencing your purchasing decision more than
mere fluff like its content.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:30:21 -0400
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6615

In article <slrn8hrhdj.d0v.xethair@canticle.concordant-thought.com>,
stormwarden@bigfoot.com wrote:

> [Oh, and I just noticed you made a bit of an apology elsewhere in the
> thread. I'm suprised you posted this after that, but it's nice to see you
> are at least a little aware.]

Look at the specific ordering of sending from host machine (if your own
reader can extract that from headers).  I made the apology AFTER I made
the posting to which you respond.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:32:17 -0400
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6618

In article <izzylobo-1205001800180001@tmp1-867b.rochester.rr.com>,
izzylobo@rochester.rr.com (Scott A. Taylor) wrote:

> In article <8fh2f8$ntd$14@news01.cit.cornell.edu>, bjm10@cornell.edu
> (Jubilation T. Cornpone) wrote:
> 
> > In article <8fer61$1lc_006@enews.newsguy.com>, bruce-baugh@sff.net
> (Bruce Baugh) wrote:
> > >In article <bjm10-1105001328420001@potato.cit.cornell.edu>,
bjm10@cornell.edu
> > > (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote:
> > >
> > >>That may be the way that art should be used, but it's not how art has
> > >>typically been used in GURPS products.
> > >
> > >Since I've been criticizing GURPS art since before I discovered Usenet, 
> > >I both agree and wonder what your point is. Did I say something to 
> > >suggest the contrary?
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > I quote myself:  "CONTENT is what matters.  For GURPS products, TEXT is 
> > content.  Art is almost always mere fluff and should be considered as such."
> 
> Bryan, you were just apologizing for being an asshole, and here you are,
> still being an asshole.

Try reading the order in which I posted.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:33:26 -0400
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6619

In article <1z7lcz5wad.fsf@swdocs.rim.net>, Viktor Haag <vhaag@rim.net> wrote:

> I think the art in GURPS Japan, GURPS Arabian Nights, GURPS
> Swashbucklers, and GURPS New Sun wasn't too hideous or out of
> place. However, Steve Jackson games certainly doesn't leap to my

But it was also pretty much information-free.  It was pleasant to look
upon, but still decorative fluff (I have not seen 2d edition Japan, so it
may have improved).

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:34:04 -0400
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In article <72aphs4mg7jr32fvtkp2ap38f2v7pdtdai@4ax.com>,
gharrus@mundsprung.com wrote:

> On 12 May 2000 13:58:40 GMT, stornc@aol.com (StornC) wrote:
> 
> :>>I bought Champions on the strength of the game system.  The art was
> :irrelevant.<<
> :
> :    Ok, now I have to totally disagree with you.  The art is an
important, nay,
> :necessary part of Champions.
> 
>         Like 'Nipple Woman' on the original cover of 
> Champions II.

She of the truly impressive nosecones!

My wife named her "Nipple Woman", too.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
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On Mon, 15 May 2000, Bryan J. Maloney wrote:

BJM>I know what it means.  You accuse me of acting on impulse rather than
BJM>consideration because I let the content of a game influence my purchasing
BJM>decision more than mere fluff like a cover picture.  I, on the other hand,
BJM>accuse you of acting on impulse rather than consideration because you let
BJM>the cover picture of a game influencing your purchasing decision more than
BJM>mere fluff like its content.

Not quite.  I accuse you of acting on impulse because you reply to a
message taking only the little bitty bit that you can rant about, and
ignoring the bit that you don't like but can't disagree with.  It's a
compliment, really, as the alternative is to accuse you of deliberately
trolling.

As to game purchases, I act on consideration, I just let *both* the
content and presentation influence my purchasing decision, but only to
decide *not* to buy something.  I would willingly buy something with *no*
cover (and/or interior) art but decent content, a point you seem to keep
missing.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Jubilation T. Cornpone)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0005151439030.2411-100000@lists.wirebird.com>, "Karen J. Cravens" <silver+news@phoenyx.net> wrote:
>ignoring the bit that you don't like but can't disagree with.  It's a
>compliment, really, as the alternative is to accuse you of deliberately
>trolling.

I'm often a fool but rarely malicious.  Actually, I have been tested for "poor 
impulse control" (the strictly cognitive kind).  What they found out was that 
my prefontal/frontal connection was just fine.  Blew the poor grad student's 
mind.  Somebody could be bombastic and still be fully functional!

>As to game purchases, I act on consideration, I just let *both* the
>content and presentation influence my purchasing decision, but only to
>decide *not* to buy something.  I would willingly buy something with *no*
>cover (and/or interior) art but decent content, a point you seem to keep
>missing.

I have a habit of presuming little.  You didn't state this, therefore, I did 
not presume it of you.  Just imagine a 200-lb bearded Gilda Radner:  "Oh.  
Well never mind."

######

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6565

On 15 May 2000, S. John Ross wrote:

> 
> [gulp] I WANTED TO ...
> 
> But no [sob].
> 
> But I want to.
> 
> I'm poor.

I know the feeling. If you're at GenCon or something, maybe you can
trade some Star Trek swag for our stuff. (I'm too poor to go to GenCon,
I'm afraid).

######

From: "S. John Ross" <sjohn@io.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: 16 May 2000 03:24:32 GMT
Organization: Diogenes Studios
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| > I'm poor.
| 
| I know the feeling. If you're at GenCon or something, maybe you can
| trade some Star Trek swag for our stuff. (I'm too poor to go to GenCon,
| I'm afraid).

I have Star Trek swag, and I'm not too poor for postage. :)

No thanks to Star Trek ;)

|| S. John Ross
|| Husband · Cook · Writer
|| In That Order
|| http://www.io.com/~sjohn/fonts.htm - FONTS FOR GAMERS

######

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On Tue, 16 May 2000, Jubilation T. Cornpone wrote:

JTC>In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.0005151439030.2411-100000@lists.wirebird.com>, "Karen J. Cravens" <silver+news@phoenyx.net> wrote:
JTC>>As to game purchases, I act on consideration, I just let *both* the
JTC>>content and presentation influence my purchasing decision, but only to
JTC>>decide *not* to buy something.  I would willingly buy something with *no*
JTC>>cover (and/or interior) art but decent content, a point you seem to keep
JTC>>missing.
JTC>
JTC>I have a habit of presuming little.  You didn't state this, therefore, I did 
JTC>not presume it of you.  Just imagine a 200-lb bearded Gilda Radner:  "Oh.  

Nice try, but no.  You presumed, all right, you just presumed the
wrong thing... even though I *had* stated this:

"Art can't make me buy books.  Art, especially cover art, can make me
*not* buy books, though."
<Pine.LNX.4.21.0005101216300.5243-100000@lists.wirebird.com> 10 May 2000

"That doesn't mean I'll buy something with a pretty cover and bad rules.  
It just means I won't buy something I find unpleasant."
<Pine.LNX.4.21.0005111711340.12154-100000@lists.wirebird.com> 11 May 2000

I'm not sure how much clearer I could have been.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon)
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>I believe you are correct. For interesting counter-examples, see the
>original Traveller "black books" line. 0-1 illustrations per book, but
>excellent graphic design layout with text that, despite the small size,
>was a pleasure on the eyes.

With a size, you'll note, that is far more similar to ASIMOV'S or ANALOG (which
have little-to-no graphical support on the page) than AMAZING or WEIRD TALES
(which have quite a bit of graphical support on the page). (I pick on SF mags
because there's a comparable lay-out spread.)

Similarly, I feel that the GoO digest-sized books require far less "graphical
support" on their pages than the "regular-sized" books.

Justin Bacon
triad@prairie.lakes.com

######

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On Mon, 15 May 2000, tussock wrote:

t>    Eek, a depiciction of a demon! In a book with gate spells no less.

It was butt-ugly.  You have some kind of problem with me expressing my
personal taste?

t>    Oh my dog. That depiction of a woman isn't wearing clothes! Or was it the
t>familiar, perhaps the use of magic? The floating spellbook? Red hair?

None of the above.  Well, the woman not wearing clothes was a bit of it,
although it takes more than that alone to do it.  (I have nothing at all
against tasteful nudity, although I question its appropriateness on the
cover of game materials.  I'd really, really like to be able to say to
someone at work, "Yeah, I'm a roleplayer," without having them look at me
funny, like that means I hang out with pre-teens and/or fat smelly
bachelors-for-life... I work in IT, so I can get away with a certain
amount of geekiness, but that crosses over into nerdiness.)

t>    I think you're a freak for finding that unpleasant (gotta love opinions),
t>but the following descion was fairly normal based on that.

Oh.  You *do* have a problem with someone expressing personal
taste.  Well, while you're doing it, I think you're a jerk for thinking
I'm a freak, doubly so for announcing it in public.

t>    I can only hope you are tolerent enough to let others in your group use the
t>material in the "offensive" book, if they want to splash out on the purchase
t>(campain balance assumed OK).

Long as I don't have to pay for it or look at it , no, I wouldn't care.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

From: stornc@aol.com (StornC)
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>>>I believe you are correct. For interesting counter-examples, see the
>original Traveller "black books" line. 0-1 illustrations per book, but
>excellent graphic design layout with text that, despite the small size,
>was a pleasure on the eyes.

With a size, you'll note, that is far more similar to ASIMOV'S or ANALOG (which
have little-to-no graphical support on the page) than AMAZING or WEIRD TALES
(which have quite a bit of graphical support on the page). (I pick on SF mags
because there's a comparable lay-out spread.)<<

   I still contend that comparing the two formats (sci-fi mags to RPG books) is
comparing apples to oranges.
   It doesn't matter what each individual reader visualizes while reading the
text.  We are all free to "see" what we want to and that is wonderful.

   It DOES matter in a game.  Because the differences in visualization between
Player and Game Master or Player and Player can lead to horrendous confusion. 
If the GM envisions the aliens has having dry leathery skin, while the Player
thinks alien skin has icky, gooey, ichor, leaving a slime trail that can be
tracked... well, we have to stop the momentum of the game and address the
incongruity.  An illo could have avoided that quite easily.  I often do 5 or 10
minute sketches for most NPCs, just so I don't have to describe age, gender,
body type, hair color etc, the players can pick that up in a glance from my
quickie little sketch.

   If you are not an artist, there are plenty of photos, illos and little icons
floating around the net.  I once ran a Feng Shui campaign that had characters
from the Tekken (video game) world.  I found little icons of those characters
and downloaded them, put them on the character sheet and away we go!

    As for those Traveller books mentioned.  I didn't buy them precisely
because they were so boring looking.  And I was a card carrying wargamer at the
time.  Also, remember, the Traveller books were about a 1/4 of the size of an
Asimov Analog in page count.  You can get away with a bit more printed page and
less illos in a small page count than a large one.

--storn

######

From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." <richberg@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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StornC wrote:
> 
>    It doesn't matter what each individual reader visualizes while reading the
> text.  We are all free to "see" what we want to and that is wonderful.
> 
>    It DOES matter in a game.  Because the differences in visualization between
> Player and Game Master or Player and Player can lead to horrendous confusion.
> If the GM envisions the aliens has having dry leathery skin, while the Player
> thinks alien skin has icky, gooey, ichor, leaving a slime trail that can be
> tracked... well, we have to stop the momentum of the game and address the
> incongruity.  An illo could have avoided that quite easily.  I often do 5 or 10
> minute sketches for most NPCs, just so I don't have to describe age, gender,
> body type, hair color etc, the players can pick that up in a glance from my
> quickie little sketch.

OTOH, there's a pretty original take on NOT doing such in the Dragons
sourcebook 
for Feng Shui.

Their idea is that decribing a character or scene in detail _limits_ the
players.
Example: If the GM just says "You're in a warehouse." without adding
"full of crates 
of bedding material, a fork list in the corner, two large industrial
fans,...", the 
players will be able to come up with details as dramatically
appropriate.  With large 
amounts of detail already present the players get less input into the
story.

Alzo, I remember WAY too many instances where players get locked into
the books 
description or illustration, when the GM has specifically changed the
way things 
work in his world.  Showing them the 'correct' illo doesn't seem to
break people 
easily from their preconceptions.
(IE, people keep picturing D+D Elves or Warhammer Orcs, even when we run
in Middle 
Earth...)

>     As for those Traveller books mentioned.  I didn't buy them precisely
> because they were so boring looking.  

I bought them because they rich in information.

The counter example is all the WW style books I didn't get because they
had very 
little text per page.  The gorgeous artwork was irrelevant to my gaming.

When I need references I'd get them from the library, have a friend draw
them, etc.
The number of RPG book illo's that were useful for this purpose have
been very low..

######

From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon)
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>   It DOES matter in a game.  Because the differences in visualization between
>Player and Game Master or Player and Player can lead to horrendous confusion.

While you may have some point here, carrying this logic through to its natural
conclusion results in all of us being constrained to using only material which
has both (a) been presented in a supplement, and (b) illustrated. 

Your argument that we can do the illos ourselves, in fact, reduces your claim
that the books need to have the illos in question to absurdity.

>    As for those Traveller books mentioned.  I didn't buy them precisely
>because they were so boring looking. 

Well, yes. That *would* be a rather stupid reason to pick them up.

>Also, remember, the Traveller books were about a 1/4 of the size of an
>Asimov Analog in page count.  You can get away with a bit more printed page
>and less illos in a small page count than a large one.

I see no evidence of this being the case. A page is a page -- regardless of
whether or not there are 100 or 1000 others just like them in the product in
question.

But since neither Asimov's nor Analog has illos, either, I'm not really seeing
the point of what you're saying even if we accept your precepts as true.

Justin Bacon
triad@prairie.lakes.com

######

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On 17 May 2000, Justin Bacon wrote:

JB>I see no evidence of this being the case. A page is a page -- regardless of
JB>whether or not there are 100 or 1000 others just like them in the product in
JB>question.

Actually, you *can* get away with a lot more boringness on a small page
than a large one... it's a graphic design thing.  Eye fatigue, and all.  
You get lost in walls of text if the page is too big.

JB>But since neither Asimov's nor Analog has illos, either, I'm not really seeing
JB>the point of what you're saying even if we accept your precepts as true.

Huh?  Have they changed since our subscription lapsed a few months ago?

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

From: stornc@aol.com (StornC)
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>>Your argument that we can do the illos ourselves, in fact, reduces your claim
that the books need to have the illos in question to absurdity.
<<

   I disagree about the reduction of validity.  Wouldn't you rather have a RPG
book that has both good, informative, story-inspiring illustrations and rich,
full, informative text combined with a good game system?  Don't you want
one-stop info at your finger tips? Answer is probably yes.

  Someone stated that WW had great art, but not much on the ball in the text. 
I disagree again.  I own 2 WW books, Vampire and Trinity.  The system is not
perfect, but it is pretty good.  And the background text stuff has set the
standard for the industry.  As over all packages, WW rates an 8 out of 10 in my
book.

   What I like, might not be the same thing you like.

--storn

######

From: stornc@aol.com (StornC)
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>>>>    As for those Traveller books mentioned.  I didn't buy them precisely
>>because they were so boring looking. 
>
>Well, yes. That *would* be a rather stupid reason to pick them up.
>

   I was young, 11 or so.  But eventually, I did look at Traveller and did not
like it, not because of the lack of artwork.  But I did not like the limited
range of dice rolls (2d6 as I recall), and I thought Character Creation was
really rotten.  
   But I'm a visual person.  I admit that.  I ignored all those black covers
because they didn't grab my imagination.  They looked like textbooks.  I was
looking for fun, not work.

-storn

######

From: jhkim@cascade.ps.uci.edu (John Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
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StornC <stornc@aol.com> wrote:
>Wouldn't you rather have a RPG book that has both good, informative, 
>story-inspiring illustrations and rich, full, informative text combined 
>with a good game system?  Don't you want one-stop info at your finger 
>tips? Answer is probably yes.

	Well, that pretty much depends on price.  By and large, I 
simply don't use RPG books for story inspiration.  In my opinion, 
there are so many sources for good illustrations and story ideas 
out there that it is something of a waste to look in one's RPG 
books for these.  So while they don't hurt, "inspirational" 
illustrations are not something I'm going to pay extra for.  

	I *do* want info at my fingertips, though.  For most RPG 
books, I would easily trade any half of the interior illustrations 
for a good table of contents and index.  I suppose that is one reason 
why I have so many GURPS books even though I don't care for the 
system.  

-*-*-*-*-*-*-
>
>Someone stated that WW had great art, but not much on the ball in the 
>text.  I disagree again.  I own 2 WW books, Vampire and Trinity.  The 
>system is not perfect, but it is pretty good.  And the background text 
>stuff has set the standard for the industry.  As over all packages, WW 
>rates an 8 out of 10 in my book.

	Hm.  I have more than that, and the core _Vampire_ book is 
probably my favorite both for layout and content.  Certainly I think 
_Werewolf_ was a major downturn in terms of consistent and text-matching 
illustrations.  

  Example: _Vampire_ had a long story told in small comic-book frames 
  spaced throughout the book.  The art was mediocre, but the concept 
  was about as good as any other introductory RPG story.  In contrast, 
  _Werewolf_ has an illustrated bloody fight between two Garou 
  which takes up about half of each page in its systems chapter.
  The text columns are broken apart trying to fit around the irregular 
  layout of the large figures.  

	I don't have _Trinity_, but that was mainly because I found 
the concept not at all to my tastes.  I have _Aberrant_, the 
"prequel" game.  As far as design, _Aberrant_ has the major fault 
that its background information is totally unorganized.  The first 
100 pages of the core book is pure background, but it has no real 
order and none of it is covered by the table of contents or index (!).  
It is fairly interesting to read, but the design makes it makes a 
lousy game resource. 


-- 
       John H. Kim     | Whatever else is true you
     jhkim@fnal.gov    | Trust your little finger
 www.ps.uci.edu/~jhkim | Just a single little finger can
  UC Irvine, Cal, USA  | Save the world.   - Steven Sondheim, "Assassins"

######

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Justin Bacon wrote:
> But since neither Asimov's nor Analog has illos, either, I'm not really seeing
> the point of what you're saying even if we accept your precepts as true.

*digdig rummagerummage*  The Analog I have here definite _does_ have
illustrations.  All for  the stories in the volume open with either
full-page or two-page illustrations for the titles.  "Falling Free"
also has a full-page illustration half way through he story, and 
"Captives of the Slavestone" has a two-page illustration in the 
middle, both illustrating scenes from the stories.  The article on
nanotechnology also has a two-page illustration, and "State of the 
Art" has an illustration at the end that has nothing to do with the
article.  In addition, the magazine is broken up by full-page
advertisements that have nothing to do with anything. 

The other Analogs I've leafed through have a similar situation 
regarding illustrations.  So I'd say Analog is not a case of 
"artwork is not necesarry", but rather an example of "artwork put 
to good use".



-- 

Eric Tolle                                       schaduw@silcom.com
People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress.  
Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of  DNA, 
and now everybody who is somebody uses it!

######

From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <20000518130529.26983.00000047@ng-fp1.aol.com>, stornc@aol.com (StornC) writes...
}>>>>    As for those Traveller books mentioned.  I didn't buy them precisely
}>>because they were so boring looking. 
}>
}>Well, yes. That *would* be a rather stupid reason to pick them up.
}>
} 
}   I was young, 11 or so.  But eventually, I did look at Traveller and did not
}like it, not because of the lack of artwork.  But I did not like the limited
}range of dice rolls (2d6 as I recall), and I thought Character Creation was
}really rotten.  
}   But I'm a visual person.  I admit that.  I ignored all those black covers
}because they didn't grab my imagination.  They looked like textbooks.  I was
}looking for fun, not work.
} 
}-storn

That is odd. The Traveller books are some of the most visually striking
RPG books out there. The cover design is simple and rather elegant, too.

--- Carl

######

From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." <richberg@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:16:10 -0400
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StornC wrote:
> 
>   Someone stated that WW had great art, but not much on the ball in the text.
> I disagree again.  I own 2 WW books, Vampire and Trinity.  The system is not
> perfect, but it is pretty good.  And the background text stuff has set the
> standard for the industry.  As over all packages, WW rates an 8 out of 10 in my
> book.

Clarifier on that:
Many of the WW books are so specific to _their_ setting that 
they're quite useless for other settings.
The wonderful art doesn't save them.
Now, often these setting descriptions are evocative and well paced, 
but that just gives us a decent illustrated "novel" and not much of 
an RPG aid.
From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." <richberg@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:16:10 -0400
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StornC wrote:
> 
>   Someone stated that WW had great art, but not much on the ball in the text.
> I disagree again.  I own 2 WW books, Vampire and Trinity.  The system is not
> perfect, but it is pretty good.  And the background text stuff has set the
> standard for the industry.  As over all packages, WW rates an 8 out of 10 in my
> book.

Clarifier on that:
Many of the WW books are so specific to _their_ setting that 
they're quite useless for other settings.
The wonderful art doesn't save them.
Now, often these setting descriptions are evocative and well paced, 
but that just gives us a decent illustrated "novel" and not much of 
an RPG aid.

######

From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Karen J. Cravens wrote:
>On 17 May 2000, Justin Bacon wrote:
>
>JB>I see no evidence of this being the case. A page is a page -- regardless of
>JB>whether or not there are 100 or 1000 others just like them in the product
in
>JB>question.
>
>Actually, you *can* get away with a lot more boringness on a small page
>than a large one... it's a graphic design thing.  Eye fatigue, and all.  
>You get lost in walls of text if the page is too big.

Ummm.... I hate to point this out, but that's what I've been saying. I was
countering the point that having fewer pages means you need fewer graphics
(proportionally); not that smaller pages require fewer graphics
(proportionally).

>JB>But since neither Asimov's nor Analog has illos, either, I'm not really
seeing
>JB>the point of what you're saying even if we accept your precepts as true.
>
>Huh?  Have they changed since our subscription lapsed a few months ago?

Contextual overstep: "Illos" here should read "illos in the same concentration
as Amazing Stories or the latest HEAVY GEAR supplement".

Justin Bacon
triad@prairie.lakes.com

######

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On 19 May 2000, Justin Bacon wrote:

JB>Ummm.... I hate to point this out, but that's what I've been saying. I was
JB>countering the point that having fewer pages means you need fewer graphics
JB>(proportionally); not that smaller pages require fewer graphics
JB>(proportionally).

Oh.  Well, it looked like you were disagreeing with someone who said that.

JB>Contextual overstep: "Illos" here should read "illos in the same concentration
JB>as Amazing Stories or the latest HEAVY GEAR supplement".

Well... okay.  I always felt they were pretty graphics-heavy, actually,
but then again I haven't read Amazing Stories or the latest Heavy Gear
supplement... but it seems like if they had many more graphics, they'd be
comic books...

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

From: stornc@aol.com (StornC)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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>>100 pages of the core book is pure background, but it has no real 
order and none of it is covered by the table of contents or index (!).  
It is fairly interesting to read, but the design makes it makes a 
lousy game resource. <<

    Agreed.  It is more important to find background info easily, than to have
sweeping strokes of mood and flavor.  But it is my belief that both can be
done.

--storn

######

From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
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Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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In article <20000518130529.26983.00000047@ng-fp1.aol.com>, stornc@aol.com
(StornC) wrote:

>    But I'm a visual person.  I admit that.  I ignored all those black covers
> because they didn't grab my imagination.  They looked like textbooks.  I was
> looking for fun, not work.

All of my textbooks (molecular biology, chemistry, even calculus) have all
kinds of pretty pictures on the cover and lots of colorful illustrations
within.  Indeed, one of the molecular biology textbooks has a rip-off of
the Abbey Road album back on the back cover (featuring Jim Watson as the
barefoot man).

Indeed, my textbooks seem to have more colorful, informative, and
generally better illustrations than most game materials I've ever seen.

-- 
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we 
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are 
dealing with our mental health crisis today."

######

Message-ID: <3924C048.CD1843EC@clear.net.nz>
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"Karen J. Cravens" wrote:

> On Mon, 15 May 2000, tussock wrote:
>
> t>    Eek, a depiciction of a demon! In a book with gate spells no less.
>
> It was butt-ugly.  You have some kind of problem with me expressing my
> personal taste?

    Problem? I would not seek to curtail others posting, that's what killfiles are
for.

> t>    Oh my dog. That depiction of a woman isn't wearing clothes! Or was it the
> t>familiar, perhaps the use of magic? The floating spellbook? Red hair?
>
> None of the above.  Well, the woman not wearing clothes was a bit of it,
> although it takes more than that alone to do it.  (I have nothing at all
> against tasteful nudity, although I question its appropriateness on the
> cover of game materials.  I'd really, really like to be able to say to
> someone at work, "Yeah, I'm a roleplayer," without having them look at me
> funny, like that means I hang out with pre-teens and/or fat smelly
> bachelors-for-life... I work in IT, so I can get away with a certain
> amount of geekiness, but that crosses over into nerdiness.)

    Slim smelly bachelor-for-life here. Nothing wrong with the people who game with
me, I hope.
    Oh, and good luck dealing with your embarrassment about roleplaying, IME people
are quite interested when the topic arises. It's not like you're a train spotter
(with apologies to train spotters 8]).

> t>    I think you're a freak for finding that unpleasant (gotta love opinions),
> t>but the following descion was fairly normal based on that.
>
> Oh.  You *do* have a problem with someone expressing personal
> taste.  Well, while you're doing it, I think you're a jerk for thinking
> I'm a freak, doubly so for announcing it in public.

    Thanx. 8]
    I honestly do find it weird, though i'm sure I could have commented more gently.
    Guess i'm just much more utilitarian, or whatever.

> t>    I can only hope you are tolerent enough to let others in your group use the
> t>material in the "offensive" book, if they want to splash out on the purchase
> t>(campain balance assumed OK).
>
> Long as I don't have to pay for it or look at it , no, I wouldn't care.

    I'm still missing your reasoning (offensive, embarrassing, huh?), but never mind.

--
  tussock

Sarcasm is the lowest form of humor. 8]

######

From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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Karen J. Cravens wrote:
>Well... okay.  I always felt they were pretty graphics-heavy, actually,
>but then again I haven't read Amazing Stories or the latest Heavy Gear
>supplement... but it seems like if they had many more graphics, they'd be
>comic books...

ANALOG and ASIMOV'S? Errr... no. Emphatically no. ANALOG and ASIMOV'S have a
picture at the begining of each story... and that's it. Amazing stories is
graphically rich throughout the entire magazine (on, literally, almost every
single page). HEAVY GEAR will have an illo on *at least* more than 50% of the
pages.

Perhaps you're thinking of some other SF magazines?

Justin Bacon
triad@prairie.lakes.com

######

From: pardoz@nospam.io.com (Pardoz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Artwork in RPGs (was Unknown Armies)
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On 18 May 2000 17:01:52 GMT, StornC <stornc@aol.com> wrote:

>   I disagree about the reduction of validity.  Wouldn't you rather have a RPG
>book that has both good, informative, story-inspiring illustrations and rich,
>full, informative text combined with a good game system?  Don't you want
>one-stop info at your finger tips? Answer is probably yes.

	All other things being equal, sure.  Unfortunately all other things aren't 
equal.  Given the choice between paying $30 for the solid text plus
good illos and paying $20 for the text alone I'll take door # 1. 
Besides, let's be honest - most RPG art aspires to heights of
mediocrity (yes, there are some notable exceptions; yes, some RPG illos
are of great value - I find technical illustrations useful in 'most any
RPG, and some games (Skyrealms of Jorune, frexample) use good art to
good effect in describing the world.  This being said, I hold by my
original statement - Sturgeon's Law understates the case when it comes
to RPG art in general).

>   What I like, might not be the same thing you like.

	"Me too."

-- 
UNIVERSALIST, n.  One who forgoes the advantage of a Hell for persons 
of another faith.               (A. Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_)

######

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On 20 May 2000, Justin Bacon wrote:

JB>ANALOG and ASIMOV'S? Errr... no. Emphatically no. ANALOG and ASIMOV'S have a
JB>picture at the begining of each story... and that's it. Amazing stories is
JB>graphically rich throughout the entire magazine (on, literally, almost every
JB>single page). HEAVY GEAR will have an illo on *at least* more than 50% of the
JB>pages.
JB>
JB>Perhaps you're thinking of some other SF magazines?

But it's a *big* picture, innit, sometimes a two-page spread with a little
bitty beginning of the story on the right-hand?  (Instead of the left,
with the right being all text.)  I suppose it depends on how long the
stories are as to what the picture density ends up being.  Plus then you
have all the funky clip-art-that-hasn't-changed-since-the-70's-or-before
that they use on the pages toward the back.

Anyway, it always struck me that you saw a lot of bleed just at a casual
look at the edge of the mag.  Okay, not *quite* a comic book, but still a
lot.

Though, on reflection, a lot of that's probably ads.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

######

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>ology, chemistry, even calculus) have all
>kinds of pretty pictures on the cover and lots of colorful illustrations
>within.  Indeed, one of the molecular biology textbooks has a rip-off of
>the Abbey Road album back on the back cover (featuring Jim Watson as the
>barefoot man).
>
>Indeed, my textbooks seem to have more colorful, informative, and
>generally better illustrations than most game materials I've ever se


    Very good point.  I was talking about the boring texts of yesteryear.  I
have seen more modern text books and some of them are really quite well done,
with even humorous writing at times.
    My Aunt writes english text books and they are quite amazing.  And I've
seen several at her house on other subjects that are wonderfully done.

--storn

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Justin Bacon wrote:
> 
> ANALOG and ASIMOV'S? Errr... no. Emphatically no. ANALOG and ASIMOV'S have a
> picture at the begining of each story... and that's it. Amazing stories is

Analog has a two-page spread for it's stories.  It also breaks up 
the stories with one-page illos.  And then of course there were the
number of one-page advertisements for SF novels, games, etc.

> Perhaps you're thinking of some other SF magazines?

Possibly.  Actually, I'd say the closest (in size at least) to  
RPGs would be "aboriginal science Fiction (is that still being 
printed?).  IIRC, that was fairly graphics heavy.  "Omni" might be 
an example as well- it was as graphics intense as a regular news 
stand mag.  

It's worth noting that Omni and news stand mags like Discover and 
scientific America don't strictly speaking, need illustrations any 
more then RPGs do.  If illos aren't content, then the question is 
why those mags use the space the way they do.  (Yes, the question is 
more or less rhetorical).

-- 

Eric Tolle                                       schaduw@silcom.com
People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress.  
Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of  DNA, 
and now everybody who is somebody uses it!

######

From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon)
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In article <3929C6DC.2888EDAC@silcom.com>, Eric Tolle <schaduw@silcom.com>
writes:

>Possibly.  Actually, I'd say the closest (in size at least) to  
>RPGs would be "aboriginal science Fiction (is that still being 
>printed?).

Aboriginal, Weird Tales, Absolute Science Fiction, and a couple others are all
published by DNA Publications. A lot of graphics in those, thanks to the larger
page sizes -- which was my whole point.

Justin bacon
triad@prairie.lakes.com