From: matt@black101.demon.co.uk (Matt Birdsall) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 22:31:48 +0100 Message-ID: <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: black101.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: black101.demon.co.uk:158.152.108.94 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 957475903 nnrp-01:11402 NO-IDENT black101.demon.co.uk:158.152.108.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.2 (unregistered for 828 days) Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!black101.demon.co.uk!matt Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5387 DC wrote: > > > > >I know about the genre (I was thinking of doing something closer to the > > >old "Invasion" story from 2000AD) > > > > Oh gods, you get to play Bill Savage, singlehandedly blasting the > > Volgans out of the UK with his trusty shotgun?! > > Drekk, damn volgs!!! > > -- Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? ###### From: David Crowe Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 5 May 2000 07:44:10 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8etu4a$8gq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: usr02.primenet.com X-Complaints-To: abuse@globalcenter.net X-Posted-By: jetman@206.165.6.202 (jetman) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xmission!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!news.primenet.com!jetman Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5433 Matt Birdsall wrote: : Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light : of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? The only possible contender would be the Chinese. Who else could possibly field a large enough occupying army? -- David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman Rec.games.frp.moderated moderated passes 205:71 YES! ###### From: neelk@brick.cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 5 May 2000 10:28:21 GMT Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8etu4a$8gq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Reply-To: neelk@alum.mit.edu X-Trace: vGrA9Ccm2JFAfvrqJafpe1YCdlceJB5J1V4rEYebY0E= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 May 2000 10:28:21 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!neelk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5460 David Crowe wrote: > Matt Birdsall wrote: > > > > Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in > > light of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders > > be? > > The only possible contender would be the Chinese. Who else could > possibly field a large enough occupying army? The Chinese Army couldn't invade *Taiwan* successfully -- the joke among military planners is that the Chinese invasion of Taiwan would be a million-man swim. They are /really poor/; after 2 decades of 10% compounded annual growth, China's per capita GDP is still a tiny fraction of America or any Western European nation, including laggards like Greece. I don't think that it's realistic for any First World nation to be successfully invaded. Neel ###### Message-ID: <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 07:20:42 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-18.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-18.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 5 May 2000 07:22:57 -0400, cm-24-29-52-18.nycap.rr.com Lines: 18 XPident: Pcoveney X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-18.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5484 Matt Birdsall wrote: > Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light > of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? It would have to be aliens. There isn't a country on Earth that has even a fraction of the military power necessary to invade the USA, let alone have a prayer of keeping it for more than a week. Hell, given the logistical problems of invading a country this size, I'd venture to say that it would take the combined forces of the rest of the entire world to even make a go of it. So the only reasonable invading force would be the unreasonable one of having invaders from another solar system. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: imp@connect.org.uk (M.S. Caldwell) Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Sender: news@csc.liv.ac.uk (News Eater) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:27:54 GMT Lines: 44 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: imp@ulls.connect.liv.ac.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8etu4a$8gq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Organization: Computer Science, University of Liverpool, UK X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!liv!lucs!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5382 In article , neelk@brick.cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) writes: > The Chinese Army couldn't invade *Taiwan* successfully -- the joke > among military planners is that the Chinese invasion of Taiwan would > be a million-man swim. Similar to the jokes about the Germans just prior to the outbreak of WWII then. Also why whenever it looks like China might try to invade Taiwan the US, British, French et al put large forces into the area to support Taiwan. As to swimming the Chinese special forces regularly train by landing small forces in Taiwan with missions to get a cinema ticket stubb and similar activities. Very few such missions are unsucessful. > They are /really poor/; after 2 decades of 10% compounded annual > growth, China's per capita GDP is still a tiny fraction of America or > any Western European nation, including laggards like Greece. I > don't think that it's realistic for any First World nation to be > successfully invaded. Wow they dont have much in the way of a GDP. On the other hand they have 1/5 of the world population, a space programme, nuclear weapons, one of the largest standing armies of any country... Look how much effort the USSR put into defending its borders with China compared to that with Western Europe. You may be surprised. The big problem is, which the Soviets had figured out was that China can throw weight of numbers at a tough spot until no matter how well trained and equiped your forces are they will wear you down. However I suspect it is unlikely they would want to invade anyone at the moment for all sorts of political, cultural and economic reasons. To assume that 1st world countries are somehow invulnerable to invasion from others is a risky kind of arrogance. Once no one could becomes no one would dare then defence budgets are really cut back. Then some upstart actually invades you. > Neel Cheers Mark ###### From: "Shawn Wilson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <2iyQ4.49177$fV.3058566@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 11:31:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.153.31 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 957526270 12.75.153.31 (Fri, 05 May 2000 11:31:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 11:31:10 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5416 "Sea Wasp" wrote in message news:3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net... > > Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light > > of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? > > It would have to be aliens. There isn't a country on Earth that has > even a fraction of the military power necessary to invade the USA, let > alone have a prayer of keeping it for more than a week. Hell, given the > logistical problems of invading a country this size, I'd venture to say > that it would take the combined forces of the rest of the entire world > to even make a go of it. So the only reasonable invading force would be > the unreasonable one of having invaders from another solar system. Don't forget that they're going to have to walk here, the US Navy has the approximate combat power of the rest of the world's navies combined. ###### From: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 5 May 2000 12:43:55 GMT Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8eufmb$8vd$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <2iyQ4.49177$fV.3058566@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: verden.pvv.ntnu.no X-Trace: kopp.stud.ntnu.no 957530635 9197 129.241.210.224 (5 May 2000 12:43:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@itea.ntnu.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 May 2000 12:43:55 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!uninett.no!ntnu.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5420 In article <2iyQ4.49177$fV.3058566@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Shawn Wilson wrote: > >"Sea Wasp" wrote in message >news:3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net... > >> > Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light >> > of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? >> >> It would have to be aliens. There isn't a country on Earth that has >> even a fraction of the military power necessary to invade the USA, let >> alone have a prayer of keeping it for more than a week. [...] > >Don't forget that they're going to have to walk here, the US Navy has the >approximate combat power of the rest of the world's navies combined. Nah. Go all-out with the black-helicopter militia-nut fantasies and have the US occupied by UN troops. Betrayed by its own government, the US armed forces divided against themselves, etc. *Runs off to grab a copy of "Shattered States"* -- Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll) ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 15:25:51 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8eup5v$94_004@enews.newsguy.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <2iyQ4.49177$fV.3058566@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8eufmb$8vd$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-669.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5421 In article <8eufmb$8vd$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no>, leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) wrote: >Nah. Go all-out with the black-helicopter militia-nut fantasies and have >the US occupied by UN troops. Betrayed by its own government, the US >armed forces divided against themselves, etc. I think this would make a great game setup. It offers all sorts of interesting conflicts, psychological and moral as well as physical, and can smoothly encompass soap-opera melodrama together with butt-kicking action. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### From: james_n@babbage.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 5 May 2000 17:22:47 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8ev017$ab6$1@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: babbage.uwaterloo.ca X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!torn!watserv3.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5437 In article <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk>, Matt Birdsall wrote: >DC wrote: > >> > >> > >I know about the genre (I was thinking of doing something closer to the >> > >old "Invasion" story from 2000AD) >> > >> > Oh gods, you get to play Bill Savage, singlehandedly blasting the >> > Volgans out of the UK with his trusty shotgun?! >> >> Drekk, damn volgs!!! >> >> -- >Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light >of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? US/UN, in league with Hanoverians? -- Temporary Email: jdnicoll@home.com [Just until I fix my current email problems] ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) From: bkahler@netscape.net (Flex Mentallo) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <2iyQ4.49177$fV.3058566@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8eufmb$8vd$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no> Organization: Man of Muscle Mystery Message-ID: <8F2B5934Abkahlernetscapenet@10.10.1.11> User-Agent: Xnews/03.02.04 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.10.10.200 Date: 5 May 2000 09:23:36 -0800 X-Trace: 5 May 2000 09:23:36 -0800, 10.10.10.200 Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!triton.skycache.com!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news.cwsl.edu!10.10.10.200 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5436 leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) wrote in <8eufmb$8vd$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no>: >In article <2iyQ4.49177$fV.3058566@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, >Shawn Wilson wrote: >> >>"Sea Wasp" wrote in message >>news:3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net... >> >>> > Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in >>> > light of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders >>> > be? >>> >>> It would have to be aliens. There isn't a country on Earth that has >>> even a fraction of the military power necessary to invade the USA, >>> let alone have a prayer of keeping it for more than a week. [...] >> >>Don't forget that they're going to have to walk here, the US Navy has >>the approximate combat power of the rest of the world's navies >>combined. > >Nah. Go all-out with the black-helicopter militia-nut fantasies and >have the US occupied by UN troops. Betrayed by its own government, the >US armed forces divided against themselves, etc. The US itself. An anti-freedom faction comes to power. In response to their excesses, there is a Kosovo-like move towards secession, followed by an equally Kosovo-like clampdown by the Evil People In Power. The nice part about this plot is that you can define "anti-freedom" as left-wing commies, right-wing fascists, religious zealots, atheist technocrats or whatever, without really changing the game. -- Flex Mentallo Man of Muscle Mystery "He can cloud men's minds with his biceps." ###### From: Michael Cule Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:55:17 +0100 Message-ID: <9r8OOKAFswE5Ew4k@room3b.demon.co.uk> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <2iyQ4.49177$fV.3058566@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8eufmb$8vd$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: room3b.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: room3b.demon.co.uk:158.152.77.67 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 957549421 nnrp-13:12872 NO-IDENT room3b.demon.co.uk:158.152.77.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 S Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!room3b.demon.co.uk!mikec Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5441 In article <8eufmb$8vd$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no>, Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y writes >Nah. Go all-out with the black-helicopter militia-nut fantasies and have >the US occupied by UN troops. Betrayed by its own government, the US >armed forces divided against themselves, etc. You know this has possibilities. Have the US break apart into squabbling factions and send in the UN troops. Not just for playing US 'freedom fighters' but playing sane-and-civilised UN peacekeepers desperately trying to keep war from breaking out between the factions of the disintegrated US. Race-war bubbles in the background and all the 'natives' have huge reserves of arms and a fanatical objection to anyone taking them away from them. There are half a dozen 'legitimate governments' trying to claim the right to govern the whole continent and the same number of 'separatist' movements.... And in the middle Our Chaps in the Blue Berets... "Quite tonight, isn't LeFevre?" "Oui mon colonel. Too quiet. I do not like it..." "Yes, the Yanks are at their most dangerous when they're being quiet. Tell your men to keep an eye out for trouble...." -- Michael Cule ###### From: "A.F. Simpson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 11:05:20 -0700 Organization: University of Leicester Lines: 20 Message-ID: <39130D60.787F@le.ac.uk> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8etu4a$8gq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc42.cmht.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: rook.le.ac.uk 957521139 206320 143.210.176.54 (5 May 2000 10:05:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@le.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 May 2000 10:05:39 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!leicester!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5475 David Crowe wrote: > Matt Birdsall wrote: > > : Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light > : of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? > > The only possible contender would be the Chinese. Who else could possibly > field a large enough occupying army? The UN, obviously. They have successfully infiltrated and brainwashed the American army in order to use them, in conjunction with Russian and other forces, to oppress their fellow citizens and bring in The New World Order. (Metricating everything and taking everyones' guns away in the process.) > David "No Nickname" Crowe love Anna ###### From: Walt Smith Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 19:09:15 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8ev68e$hvr$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 147.205.85.124 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri May 05 19:09:15 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x23.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 147.205.85.124 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDfirelock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!newsfeed.esat.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5396 In article <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk>, matt@black101.demon.co.uk (Matt Birdsall) wrote: > Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light > of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? Here's a candidate: A duly-elected but out-of-control US government. They seem to be the villain of choice for the people once most afraid of a Soviet invasion. Walt Smith -- Firelock on DALNet Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: neelk@brick.cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 5 May 2000 22:40:11 GMT Lines: 81 Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8etu4a$8gq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Reply-To: neelk@alum.mit.edu X-Trace: kdGxZll1tOMb6rH2PGoiRrDABuYP0jf4tYZBUCJBBg4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 May 2000 22:40:11 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!feeder.qis.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!neelk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5541 M.S. Caldwell wrote: > In article , > neelk@brick.cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) writes: > > > The Chinese Army couldn't invade *Taiwan* successfully -- the joke > > among military planners is that the Chinese invasion of Taiwan would > > be a million-man swim. > > As to swimming the Chinese special forces regularly train by landing small > forces in Taiwan with missions to get a cinema ticket stubb and similar > activities. Very few such missions are unsucessful. Sending in tiny teams of elite infiltrators during peacetime is an entirely different sort of problem than launching an invasion across the straits. They just don't have the navy for any kind of plausible invasion -- they could make life unpleasant for the Taiwanese with missile terror attacks and confiscation of mainland assets, but stuff like that is just the ticket to harden pro-independence sentiment on the island, turn world opinion against them, and dry up foreign investment to a trickle, all without any guarantee of success. > > They are /really poor/; after 2 decades of 10% compounded annual > > growth, China's per capita GDP is still a tiny fraction of America or > > any Western European nation, including laggards like Greece. I > > don't think that it's realistic for any First World nation to be > > successfully invaded. > > Wow they dont have much in the way of a GDP. On the other hand they > have 1/5 of the world population, a space programme, nuclear > weapons, one of the largest standing armies of any country... You can't invade Taiwan without a Navy, and the ROC doesn't have one, and can't afford to build one even under the most optimistic scenarios for at least another 10-15 years. Even if you assumed that every Western power's navy mysteriously vanished overnight, the mainland government would suffer incredibly heavy losses crosssing the straits; the Taiwanese have had half a century to prepare, and the Red Army would have to use a lot of civilian ships because they don't have enough troop transports. There is no way in hell they could launch a plausible invasion of the US, let alone of any European nations. (How the heck would they *get* to France or Britain? Container ships going through the Panama canal?) > However I suspect it is unlikely they would want to invade anyone at > the moment for all sorts of political, cultural and economic reasons. No. The ROC pretty desperately wants to take over Taiwan, and is more than willing to invade them to do it. Communism as an ideology has largely been discredited within China, and the Party's primary source of legitimacy is their claim to be the sole rightful rulers of the Chinese people. Taiwan's existence is a really really bad threat to that claim: it's a democratic statelet with 20 times the per-capita GDP of China, and its founders had the best counter-claim to the rule over China. An analogy: Imagine that there were an island of 20 million people in the middle of the Atlantic, ruled by the Tories, where even the poorest person was a millionaire, and all sorts of bad laws like the Official Secrets Act did not exist. How solid do you think the Labour majority in Parliament would be? Add lots of guns and hatred, let everyone speak in Chinese, and you have the basic situation. > To assume that 1st world countries are somehow invulnerable to > invasion from others is a risky kind of arrogance. Once no one > could becomes no one would dare then defence budgets are really cut > back. Then some upstart actually invades you. Actually, I can't think of any occasion when the US has been invaded in its entire history. We've done more than our fair share of invading, successful (the Mexican-American War) and not (the War of 1812), but I don't think there has been any invasion of the US. The Japanese occupied the Phillipines during WWII, but (thanks to a racist Supreme Court), that doesn't really count -- the Constitution did not apply there. Anyone know if the Mexicans tried to retake any of their lost territory during the Civil War? Neel ###### From: neelk@brick.cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 6 May 2000 00:12:17 GMT Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <2iyQ4.49177$fV.3058566@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8eufmb$8vd$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no> <9r8OOKAFswE5Ew4k@room3b.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: neelk@alum.mit.edu X-Trace: mXLLL1fHaKBZyKTSoixyVcRINbZ8jYNtSpO6JqreOmg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 May 2000 00:12:17 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!feeder.qis.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!neelk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5542 Michael Cule wrote: > In article <8eufmb$8vd$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no>, Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y > writes > >Nah. Go all-out with the black-helicopter militia-nut fantasies and have > >the US occupied by UN troops. Betrayed by its own government, the US > >armed forces divided against themselves, etc. > > You know this has possibilities. Have the US break apart into squabbling > factions and send in the UN troops. Not just for playing US 'freedom > fighters' but playing sane-and-civilised UN peacekeepers desperately > trying to keep war from breaking out between the factions of the > disintegrated US. Judging by the record of Western peacekeeping, "sane and civilised" should be "cowardly and pusillanimous", but given that many of the US's successor states would be nuclear powers run by Huey Long, I couldn't really bring myself to cast blame in such a situation. > And in the middle Our Chaps in the Blue Berets... > > "Quite tonight, isn't LeFevre?" > "Oui mon colonel. Too quiet. I do not like it..." > "Yes, the Yanks are at their most dangerous when they're being quiet. > Tell your men to keep an eye out for trouble...." "Colonel, we cannot let these, these *amateurs* attack a convoy of refugees!" "I don't like it either, LeFevre, but we are in Aroostook territory -- and the Canadians have decided to close their borders." "There are hundreds of women and infants aboard those trucks! How can we call ourselves men if we watch those butchers to kill them all, and then ratify it as -- what is the phrase you used -- 'an orderly movement of displaced persons'?" "Those butchers have ICBMs, and have warned Brussels that it will be radioactive glass if we see anything but 'an orderly movement of displaced persons.'" Decisions, decisions.... Neel ###### Message-ID: <39138056.D45FC8B3@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 19:15:51 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.218.209 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 957576181 207.71.218.209 (Fri, 05 May 2000 18:23:01 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 18:23:01 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 18:23:01 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5488 Matt Birdsall wrote: > > DC wrote: > > > Oh gods, you get to play Bill Savage, singlehandedly blasting the > > > Volgans out of the UK with his trusty shotgun?! > > Drekk, damn volgs!!! > Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light > of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? Myself, I'd combine it with the World of Darkness. "Gah damn idjit bloodsuckers! Outta my cabbage patch! Git!" -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### From: vizi@ihug.removethis.co.nz (Dillon Burke) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 02:19:47 GMT Organization: Lacking Lines: 23 Message-ID: <39138002.10992720@newsch.es.co.nz> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.chc.ihug.co.nz X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Cache-Post-Path: newsch.es.co.nz!unknown@p66-max20.chc.ihug.co.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5513 On Thu, 4 May 2000 22:31:48 +0100, matt@black101.demon.co.uk (Matt Birdsall) wrote: >Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light >of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? Right now I think I would be tempted to make some liberal interpretations of apocalyptic literature like the Revelation of St John. First you throw in the natural disasters, like a mega-quake in California, that allows you to change the balance of power in the world. From there you can probably spin a more plausible invasion of the US by forces of Babylon, the New World Order, or the Last World Emperor. Later on you can add the Heavanly Host marching on Las Vegas or whatever. Regards Dillon -- Save the patagonian toothfish. Shoot Greenpeace! ###### Message-ID: <39138382.71079DA7@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8etu4a$8gq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 19:29:23 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.218.209 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 957576992 207.71.218.209 (Fri, 05 May 2000 18:36:32 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 18:36:32 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 18:36:32 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5487 Neel Krishnaswami wrote: RE: China invading the U.S. > There is no way in hell they could launch a plausible invasion of the > US, let alone of any European nations. (How the heck would they *get* > to France or Britain? Container ships going through the Panama canal?) However, plausibility has ever been a real consideration in the "invasion" scenarios, just a Red menace, a healthy dose of jingoism and paranoia, and the delusion of good ol' boys with shotguns being able to defeat an invasion force. Accordingly, China is as good a menace as any, followed by maybe England (gotta be a reason they're investing so heavily) or France (hey, they hate McDonalds, they _have_ to be commies). ;'/ The "Good ol' boys with shotguns" scenario (usually being the last- ditch defense after the military has been emasculated by a liberal UN-loving Washington) was surprisingly tenacious for a while. I had an otherwise intelligent friend back in '88 or so try to convince me that such a scenario set in the Redwoods north of San Francisco) would make a plausible novel. After a while, I just lost heart in trying to talk him out of writing the sucker. I never could get a plausible reason out of him for _why_ the Russians would invade that way... -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### Message-ID: <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 45 Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 19:50:24 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.218.209 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 957578256 207.71.218.209 (Fri, 05 May 2000 18:57:36 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 18:57:36 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 18:57:36 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5486 Sea Wasp wrote: > > Matt Birdsall wrote: > > > Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light > > of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? > > It would have to be aliens. There isn't a country on Earth that has > even a fraction of the military power necessary to invade the USA, let > alone have a prayer of keeping it for more than a week. Hell, given the > logistical problems of invading a country this size, I'd venture to say > that it would take the combined forces of the rest of the entire world > to even make a go of it. So the only reasonable invading force would be > the unreasonable one of having invaders from another solar system. The problem with most alien invasion scenarios is that they either rely on a McGuffin to defeat the invaders, or the invaders being unbelievably moronic in their tactics. In nearly all scenarios that I can think of that are realistic, a race capable of interstellar travel combined with close-orbit control would have such a huge advantage over the ground defenders, that unless the defenders had a similar level of technology, there wouldn't be much of a contest. part of the problem being that the writer has to go through hoops to come up with a reason for the aliens to invade the humans on the humans terms. Niven and Pournelle did a fairly heroic job of handicapping the aliens in "Footfall", to the point where the scenario is almost plausible, involving the aliens needing a specific social construct, and salvaging their technology, rather then building it themselves. Oddly enough, I could also almost like the anime series Macross, because in spite of the humans having salvaged alien technology, the revolt of a good portion of the alien fleet, and a major anti- alien McGuffin, Earth _still_ got massively plastered, with little resistance. Remove the silly singing ditz, and you get an "Earth Loses" scenario. -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### Message-ID: <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 23:55:33 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-18.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-18.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 5 May 2000 23:57:50 -0400, cm-24-29-52-18.nycap.rr.com Lines: 39 XPident: tuulia X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-18.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5552 Eric Tolle wrote: > > Sea Wasp wrote: > > > > Matt Birdsall wrote: > > > > > Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light > > > of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? > > > > It would have to be aliens. There isn't a country on Earth that has > > even a fraction of the military power necessary to invade the USA, let > > alone have a prayer of keeping it for more than a week. Hell, given the > > logistical problems of invading a country this size, I'd venture to say > > that it would take the combined forces of the rest of the entire world > > to even make a go of it. So the only reasonable invading force would be > > the unreasonable one of having invaders from another solar system. > > The problem with most alien invasion scenarios is that they either > rely on a McGuffin to defeat the invaders, or the invaders being > unbelievably moronic in their tactics. Depends on what you define as moronic. One of the standard questions to use is whether our scientific/technological progress of the past centuries is normal or not. Certainly it wasn't the norm a few thousand years ago (the Greeks and Romans knew how to build steam engines, but they never had any good reason to follow through and make 'em practical useful machines). Many authors, most recently Harry Turtledove, make use of that by simply postulating that humans CHANGE faster than other species (at least, humans in our current technological culture). They send out a scout probe, see that we're at some low state of tech, and figure that in the few hundred years it takes to reach us that we won't change much. After all, THEIR civilization has been slowly and steadily advancing for two hundred thousand years... -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: neelk@brick.cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 6 May 2000 13:12:21 GMT Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8etu4a$8gq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <39138382.71079DA7@silcom.com> Reply-To: neelk@alum.mit.edu X-Trace: 4rZiM1Rm9fMrR/tQav/07iwqUOAV6gTQiFuqocYCt08= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 May 2000 13:12:21 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!neelk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5535 Eric Tolle wrote: > Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > > RE: China invading the U.S. > > > There is no way in hell they could launch a plausible invasion of the > > US, let alone of any European nations. (How the heck would they *get* > > to France or Britain? Container ships going through the Panama canal?) > > However, plausibility has ever been a real consideration in the > "invasion" scenarios, just a Red menace, a healthy dose of jingoism > and paranoia, and the delusion of good ol' boys with shotguns being > able to defeat an invasion force. [...] The "Good ol' boys with > shotguns" scenario (usually being the last- ditch defense after the > military has been emasculated by a liberal UN-loving Washington) was > surprisingly tenacious for a while. According to the CIA, if as little as 10% of the population is willing to actively support (hiding, feeding, etc) a guerrilla movement, it *can't* be defeated. They may never win, but they sure as heck can keep you from sleeping well indefinitely. I think Daniel Keys Moran did a pretty good job of this in his Continuing Time novels. The Evil UN Oppressors (and French, no less!) had conquered the US, but rebel terrorist movements continued to operate despite heavy repression. But there really wasn't any hope of their ever winning. ObRealWorld: Peru, Sudan, Northern Ireland, Eritrea (though they eventually succeeded after 20-odd years), and et cetera ad nauseum. OTOH, if the bad guys are Stalin, they wouldn't have much problem with starving a region into submission and then shipping all the inhabitants to Alaska. Heck, by the end of Stalin's regime *Beria* thought there were too many people in the gulags. Neel ###### From: james_n@babbage.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 6 May 2000 13:23:02 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8f16bm$ij$1@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: babbage.uwaterloo.ca X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!198.138.0.5!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!watserv3.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5528 In article <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com>, Eric Tolle wrote: > >The problem with most alien invasion scenarios is that they either >rely on a McGuffin to defeat the invaders, or the invaders being >unbelievably moronic in their tactics. In nearly all scenarios that >I can think of that are realistic, a race capable of interstellar >travel combined with close-orbit control would have such a huge >advantage over the ground defenders, that unless the defenders had a >similar level of technology, there wouldn't be much of a contest. >part of the problem being that the writer has to go through hoops to >come up with a reason for the aliens to invade the humans on the >humans terms. Have you read WJW's Drake Majistral books? The alien invasion took about five minutes: one minute for the 'surrender or else' ultimatum and four minutes to mop up the resisting forces. Much later, once the humans have gotten up to the tech level of the invaders, they manage to split off. Anderson had a nice scenario in _After Doomsday_: Earth gets contacted by a localish cluster of civilizations, who get entangled in Terrestrial politics in various ways. If the Earth had not been sterilised at one point, one could imagine a slow progress sequence of events where the aliens end up running things on Earth because they are relatively wealthy compared to us, fight better and keep getting drawn into local conflicts to protect their investments. -- ###### From: dspweg@hotmail.com Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 17:28:43 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 38 Message-ID: <8f1knt$3bm$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8etu4a$8gq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <39130D60.787F@le.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.14.194 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat May 06 17:28:43 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; MSN 2.5; Windows 98; Compaq) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x25.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.103.14.194 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDpayankee2345 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5510 In article <39130D60.787F@le.ac.uk>, "A.F. Simpson" wrote: > David Crowe wrote: > > Matt Birdsall wrote: > > > > : Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light > > : of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? > > > > The only possible contender would be the Chinese. Who else could possibly > > field a large enough occupying army? > > The UN, obviously. > > They have successfully infiltrated and brainwashed the American army in > order to use them, in conjunction with Russian and other forces, to > oppress their fellow citizens and bring in The New World Order. > (Metricating everything and taking everyones' guns away in the process.) > > > David "No Nickname" Crowe > > love > Anna So you are giving me a game where the PC's are David Korresh and Randy Weaver and the NPC's are the Feds. WEG"s made some stupid choices (many of them my fault) but you have postulated probably the most unsaleable RPG line I've ever seen or heard of. Scott > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: dspweg@hotmail.com Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 17:35:21 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <8f1l4o$3u1$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.14.194 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat May 06 17:35:21 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; MSN 2.5; Windows 98; Compaq) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x22.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.103.14.194 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDpayankee2345 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!CensurBot.NetScum.Dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!newscon04.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5500 In article <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net>, seawasp@wizvax.net wrote: > Matt Birdsall wrote: > > > Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light > > of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? > > It would have to be aliens. There isn't a country on Earth that has > even a fraction of the military power necessary to invade the USA, let > alone have a prayer of keeping it for more than a week. Hell, given the > logistical problems of invading a country this size, I'd venture to say > that it would take the combined forces of the rest of the entire world > to even make a go of it. So the only reasonable invading force would be > the unreasonable one of having invaders from another solar system. > > -- > Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html > /^\ > ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at > http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html Just as a planning exercise, assume the US surrendures to a Chinese super orbital battle station. Now get the Chinese occupation army plus their gear here in under say 3 years, even with the US helping. Transoceanic distances are a bitch logistically. One of the many reasons the US doesn't maintain a big army is how much effort it takes to get it anywhere useful. Scott > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: dspweg@hotmail.com Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 17:43:21 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8f1ljl$4gc$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39138002.10992720@newsch.es.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.14.194 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat May 06 17:43:21 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; MSN 2.5; Windows 98; Compaq) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x22.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.103.14.194 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDpayankee2345 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!CensurBot.NetScum.Dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5509 In article <39138002.10992720@newsch.es.co.nz>, vizi@ihug.removethis.co.nz (Dillon Burke) wrote: > On Thu, 4 May 2000 22:31:48 +0100, matt@black101.demon.co.uk (Matt > Birdsall) wrote: > >Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light > >of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? > > Right now I think I would be tempted to make some liberal > interpretations of apocalyptic literature like the Revelation of St > John. > > First you throw in the natural disasters, like a mega-quake in > California, that allows you to change the balance of power in the > world. From there you can probably spin a more plausible invasion of > the US by forces of Babylon, the New World Order, or the Last World > Emperor. > > Later on you can add the Heavanly Host marching on Las Vegas or > whatever. > > Regards > Dillon > > -- > Save the patagonian toothfish. Shoot Greenpeace! > Try an easier one. Every x tens of thousands of years Yosemite blows and makes North America uninhabitable. Scott Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Jerry Stratton Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Organization: Negative Space References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8etu4a$8gq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <39130D60.787F@le.ac.uk> <8f1knt$3bm$1@nnrp1.deja.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-Face: $!..L~)V627k~Fp@ojChOSX"5f@Jv=Wi;2I?!oAQgdUyNO8cFFdEefO#1jn#) v!PG?:'3/TZt/-*.7nNOij7TX9qL0j*mqZ^7qqOov0gG=Uyd9?f4:~,ce9 Message-ID: Lines: 417 Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 21:02:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.130.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 957646949 24.0.130.131 (Sat, 06 May 2000 14:02:29 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 14:02:29 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5573 In article <8f1knt$3bm$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, dspweg@hotmail.com wrote: >So you are giving me a game where the PC's are David Korresh and Randy >Weaver and the NPC's are the Feds. WEG"s made some stupid choices >(many of them my fault) but you have postulated probably the most >unsaleable RPG line I've ever seen or heard of. Hm... a bad RPG... that might explain what happened up at Ruby Ridge... DM: Okay, John, your player is a former Green Beret, married, has one son, two daughters, and your wife is pregnant. He is also a white separatist who believes that whites and minorities cannot live together in harmony. You currently live in Los Angeles. Player (Randy): Isn't Los Angeles full of minorities? DM: Yes. Player (Randy): Okay, I move up to the mountains or Oregon. Nobody lives up there, so my character shouldn't have to worry about minorities. DM: You can't do that! What kind of adventure is that???? Player (Randy): You just said my character doesn't believe he can live around minorities. What did you want him to do, run around killing all the minorities in Los Angeles? Yeah, right. DM: Okay, you move to Oregon. What does your character do once he gets there? Player (Randy): I guess I'll grow some vegetables. DM: Are you deliberately trying to make this game boring? Player (Randy): I'm just playing my character. DM: Um, okay. As you go into town for supplies, you notice some fliers for the meeting of a group called "Aryan Nation". They look like they're dedicated to the purity of the white race. Player (Randy): Well, that sounds interesting. My character will go to one of their meetings. DM: Good, now we're getting somewhere. You go to the meeting. There are only white folks there-- Player (Randy): Good DM: --and they're discussing how to throw niggers and spics out of the United States. Some people are discussing armed revolution, and ask if you would like to join. Player (Randy): I tell them I'll get back to them. Then I leave the meeting. DM: When are you going to get back to them? Player (Randy): Never. They sound like nuts. DM: Goddamit! Okay, fine. A few weeks later, after your *tomatoes* start growing, you meet some guy in town who starts talking about firearms with you. Player (Randy): That's cool, I like firearms. DM: He complains a lot about the stupid federal laws against owning certain firearms. Player (Randy): Yeah, the feds can be a real bitch. DM: He says he's always wanted a sawed-off shotgun. Player (Randy): Seems like a waste of a good shotgun. DM: Yeah, but he'd be willing to pay some good money for one. Player (Randy): He's asking *me* to sell him a sawed-off shotgun??? DM: Sure. He'll pay a lot of money. Player (Randy): I don't care, it's illegal and stupid! There's no point and it'll just get me in jail! DM: He keeps asking you. Player (Randy): I keep saying no! (Repeat previous two lines until you get tired of them.) Player (Randy): Goddamnit, is he ever going to leave me alone? DM: Doesn't look like it. Player (Randy): Okay, if I give him a sawed off shotgun, he'll go away? DM: Two shotguns. Player (Randy): Goddamnit! DM: Please, sir, he says. Player (Randy): Okay, okay. I go to find out the minimum length for a sawed off shotgun, and I cut them at that length. I'll just tell the guy it's illegal. He looks pretty stupid. DM: What??? Aren't you *ever* going to break the law??? Player (Randy): Not if I can help it. DM: Okay, make a saving throw. Player (Randy): For what? DM: Just make a saving throw, your character doesn't know for what. Player (Randy): Okay, okay. I rolled 13. DM: Good. Okay, you sell the guy the sawed-off shotguns. Eight months of an incredibley boring campaign go by. The carrots get eaten by moles. DM: Two men identifying themselves as federal agents come up to you and ask you to turn informant. Player (Randy): Turn informant on what? DM: The Aryan Nations. Player (Randy): I'm not a member! DM: You'll become a member. Player (Randy): I will not! DM: You'll become a member, or they'll arrest you for selling sawed-off shotguns. Player (Randy): What sawed off shotguns? DM: The ones you sold eight months ago. Player (Randy): You bastard! You set me up! DM: Good, now we're getting somewhere. He says-- Player (Randy): I'm not talking to him, I'm talking to you! What the hell kind of a game is this? DM: He says he doesn't have to arrest you, if you'll agree to infiltrate the Aryan Nations for him. Player (Randy): I'm not going back there! DM: Then he'll arrest you. Player (Randy): Fuck you, I'm not doing it! Besides, they're not illegal! DM: You failed your saving throw. They're actually a little bit smaller than the regulations allow. Also, you didn't realize that the barrel length is separate from the overall length. Player (Randy): You fucking bastard! DM: Hey, don't take it out on me, stay in character. Player (Randy): All right, all right. I let him arrest me. DM: Aren't you ever going to goddamn fight??? Player (Randy): I'm not getting into a fight with a federal agent. Screw you. DM: Okay, he says he'll give you time to think it over, and then they both leave. Player (Randy): Okay, when do they come back? DM: They don't. You can call them to let them know you'll do what they say. Player (Randy): I don't. I'm not going back there. DM: Fine. Six months of an incredibly boring campaign go by. The tomatoes taste pretty good. DM: You're driving to town for supplies, and there are two people, a man and a woman, stopped by the side of the road with their hood up. Player (Vicki): What kind of a car is it? DM: It's a pick-up truck, with a camper top. Player (Vicki): We should stop to help. Player (Randy): Okay, we stop to help. DM: You stop and get out and offer some assistance, and about half-a-dozen armed agents jump out of the back of the truck. One of them puts a gun to your neck. Player (Randy): Oh, fuck you. Player (Vicki): What about me? DM: One of them throws you to the ground. It's been raining a lot lately. You're all muddy. DM: What are you going to do, Randy? Player (Randy): Wait until they tell me what's up? DM: Goddamnit, they just threw your wife in the mud! Aren't you ever going to fight? When is this campaign going to get off the ground??? Player (Randy): There are eight of them and two of us, what do you expect? DM: Okay, fine, he brings you to jail, and they eventually give you your court date. They give you a piece of paper that says you have to show up in two months, on March 20. Player (Randy): Fine, fine. I take the paper and go home. How's my daughter? DM: She's fine. Player (Vicki): We should look up what's going to happen. Let me see that paper so I can look up the charge. DM: It's Federal Law BR-549. Player (Randy): What does that mean? We go to the library to look it up. DM: Something to do with firearms, but you're not sure what. Player (Randy): Does it have to do with sawed-off shotguns? DM: No, definitely not. Player (Vicki): We're being set up. Player (Randy): Not much we can do about it, though. DM: Goddamnit, when are you going to start fighting? Player (Randy): When are you going to stop railroading us? DM: Fine, fine. So you're going to go to court? Player (Randy): We'll be there. March 20. DM: March 20? On February 21, the court signs a warrant for your arrest, for not showing up at court. Player (Randy): What??? DM: Your court date was February 20. Player (Vicki): It was March 20! We've got the paper right here! DM: It was February 20. Player (Randy): You said March 20! DM: I did not! Player (Vicki): Yes, you did! Player (Sam): I heard it too! DM: Fine! The paper was wrong. It was really February 20. Player (Vicki): We're being set up. DM: So you'll go out and fight? Player (Randy): No, we'll wait until they arrest us and go to trial. DM: Goddamnit! Player (Randy): So we go to court with them when they show up. DM: They don't show up. Player (Randy): Why not? DM: You don't know why not, they just don't. Player (Randy): Okay, well, we go back to hunting and fishing and whatever. Player (Vicki): Maybe we can have another baby. DM: Oh joy, what a fun campaign. Twenty months of an incredibly boring campaign go by. Tomatoes, carrots, and whatever the hell else grows in Oregon come up two or three times. DM: You hear the dogs barking at something. Player (Randy, Sam, Kevin): We grab our guns and go find out. DM: Thank god! Player (Randy): Maybe it'll be a deer! Player (Sam): Venison! DM: As you go out in the fields, you hear something west, but the dogs are running another direction. Player (Randy): Okay, you two follow the dogs, I'll go see if the deer is circling around. DM: You finally catch up with the dogs. Then someone hiding behind the bushes shoots one of the dogs. Player (Randy): Shit! Run, guys! DM: You're not there. Player (Randy): But I hear the shots. Do I hear the dogs yelp afterwards? DM: Okay, yes, I guess you do. Player (Randy): I fire some shots in the air, and I yell "Run, Sam! They're shooting the dogs! Run home!" Player (Sam): I'm coming, dad! DM: You see two guys in camoflage, with rifles, and your dog Striker is dead. Player (Sam): You shot striker, you Son of a Bitch! DM: They start shooting at you. Player (Sam): I fire off a shot and then I run away! Player (Kevin): I open fire to cover Sam getting away. DM to Randy's player: Someone in camoflage jumps out and tells you to stop. Player (Randy): Fuck you! I go make sure Vicki and my daughter are okay. DM to Sam's player: You've been shot. (Rolling dice) One shot hits you in the arm. The other one hits you in the back. You take seven hit points of damage in the back, and three in the arm. Player (Sam): I only have six hit points in the back! DM: Okay, you're dead. Give me your character sheet. Player (Randy): They killed my son! DM: Now, you don't know about this yet. DM: The two guys shooting at you stop shooting and yell that they're federal marshals. They grab their wounded and run away. Player (Kevin): I check Sam. DM: He's dead. Player (Kevin): I run back to tell Randy. Player (Randy): They killed my son! DM: *Now* will you go out and start fighting? Player (Randy): Now we're going to stay here and lock the doors. I don't want them killing my daughters or wife next. DM: Goddamnit! Incredibly boring hostage scenario follows, although without any hostages. Then the federal sharpshooter shoots Vicki. DM: After they shoot your wife, they send a telephone to you on a little robot on wheels. Player (Randy): They want to talk, finally? Now that Vicki's dead? DM: Looks that way. Player (Randy): So it's just a robot carrying a telephone? I don't trust these bastards. DM: Well, you look more closely, you see a shotgun is wired to the telephone. If you pick it up, the shotgun goes off. Player (Randy): If I look more closely??? It's a fucking shotgun! DM: Okay, maybe it's obvious. Do you pick up the phone? Player (Randy): Are you nuts???? Eventually they are convinced to come out by another military man they trust. Boring trial follows. Randy and Kevin are found not guilty of anything except selling a sawed-off shotgun, for which Randy serves a year and a half. DM: What do you do now that you're out of prison? Player (Randy): I move to Iowa. DM: Play again same time next week? Player (Randy): This is a stupid game. Can't we just play D&D? Jerry http://www.hoboes.com/jerry/ ###### From: "Cathy H." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 20:59:58 -0400 Organization: InfiNet Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8f2f41$3o1$1@nw001t.infi.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8etu4a$8gq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <39130D60.787F@le.ac.uk> <8f1knt$3bm$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rcmdb109-24.splitrock.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.infi.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5566 wrote in message > So you are giving me a game where the PC's are David Korresh and Randy > Weaver and the NPC's are the Feds. WEG"s made some stupid choices > (many of them my fault) but you have postulated probably the most > unsaleable RPG line I've ever seen or heard of. Now if it was the opposite scenario, where the right-wing militias and the hard-core religious conservatives had taken over and we're under a homegrown fascist dictatorship, and the PC are the reluctant-warrior guerrillas trying to regain democracy and civil rights, that might be interesting. Sort of like the "Christian America" regime in Octavia Butler's _Parable_ novels, or somesuch. ###### From: "Cathy H." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 21:05:29 -0400 Organization: InfiNet Lines: 51 Message-ID: <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: rcmdb109-24.splitrock.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.infi.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5574 Something I've liked is the idea that invading Earth could be pretty much the alien society's Vietnam. Sea Wasp wrote in message news:391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net... > Eric Tolle wrote: > > > > Sea Wasp wrote: > > > > > > Matt Birdsall wrote: > > > > > > > Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light > > > > of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? > > > > > > It would have to be aliens. There isn't a country on Earth that has > > > even a fraction of the military power necessary to invade the USA, let > > > alone have a prayer of keeping it for more than a week. Hell, given the > > > logistical problems of invading a country this size, I'd venture to say > > > that it would take the combined forces of the rest of the entire world > > > to even make a go of it. So the only reasonable invading force would be > > > the unreasonable one of having invaders from another solar system. > > > > The problem with most alien invasion scenarios is that they either > > rely on a McGuffin to defeat the invaders, or the invaders being > > unbelievably moronic in their tactics. > > Depends on what you define as moronic. One of the standard questions to > use is whether our scientific/technological progress of the past > centuries is normal or not. Certainly it wasn't the norm a few thousand > years ago (the Greeks and Romans knew how to build steam engines, but > they never had any good reason to follow through and make 'em practical > useful machines). Many authors, most recently Harry Turtledove, make use > of that by simply postulating that humans CHANGE faster than other > species (at least, humans in our current technological culture). They > send out a scout probe, see that we're at some low state of tech, and > figure that in the few hundred years it takes to reach us that we won't > change much. After all, THEIR civilization has been slowly and steadily > advancing for two hundred thousand years... > > -- > Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html > /^\ > ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at > http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: dspweg@hotmail.com Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 03:06:49 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8f2mk1$67m$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8etu4a$8gq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <39130D60.787F@le.ac.uk> <8f1knt$3bm$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8f2f41$3o1$1@nw001t.infi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.74.31.201 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun May 07 03:06:49 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; MSN 2.5; Windows 98; Compaq) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x43.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.74.31.201 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDpayankee2345 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.eurocyber.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5568 In article <8f2f41$3o1$1@nw001t.infi.net>, "Cathy H." wrote: > wrote in message > > So you are giving me a game where the PC's are David Korresh and Randy > > Weaver and the NPC's are the Feds. WEG"s made some stupid choices > > (many of them my fault) but you have postulated probably the most > > unsaleable RPG line I've ever seen or heard of. > > Now if it was the opposite scenario, where the right-wing militias and the > hard-core religious conservatives had taken over and we're under a homegrown > fascist dictatorship, and the PC are the reluctant-warrior guerrillas trying > to regain democracy and civil rights, that might be interesting. Sort of > like the "Christian America" regime in Octavia Butler's _Parable_ novels, or > somesuch. > Equally unsaleable IMHO Scott Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Shawn Wilson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8etu4a$8gq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <39130D60.787F@le.ac.uk> <8f1knt$3bm$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 09:58:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.151.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 957693530 12.75.151.87 (Sun, 07 May 2000 09:58:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 09:58:50 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5583 "Jerry Stratton" wrote in message news:newsw-E2BB9D.14022906052000@news... > Boring trial follows. Randy and Kevin are found not guilty of anything > except selling a sawed-off shotgun, for which Randy serves a year and a > half. Amen to everything, but one correction: Weaver was found guilty of two counts: failing to appear in court and violating his bail conditions. He was not convicted of the gun charges, which were ruled entrapment. ###### From: kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 8 May 2000 05:18:16 GMT Organization: the Satellite of Love Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8etu4a$8gq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <39130D60.787F@le.ac.uk> <8f1knt$3bm$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gecko.roadtoad.net Keywords: Hexapodia as the key insight X-X: http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/documents/x-headers.html User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (FreeBSD) Cache-Post-Path: gecko!kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!prairie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!12.127.17.144!attbt1!ip.att.net!news.fsr.net!kamikaze Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5657 Sat, 06 May 2000 17:28:43 GMT in <8f1knt$3bm$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, dspweg@hotmail.com spake: >In article <39130D60.787F@le.ac.uk>, > "A.F. Simpson" wrote: >> The UN, obviously. >> They have successfully infiltrated and brainwashed the American army >in >> order to use them, in conjunction with Russian and other forces, to >> oppress their fellow citizens and bring in The New World Order. >> (Metricating everything and taking everyones' guns away in the >process.) >So you are giving me a game where the PC's are David Korresh and Randy >Weaver and the NPC's are the Feds. WEG"s made some stupid choices >(many of them my fault) but you have postulated probably the most >unsaleable RPG line I've ever seen or heard of. Palladium's _Systems Failure_ is almost exactly that - it has insectoid extradimensional aliens invading the world on Jan 1, 2000 (yes, they're Y2K bugs), they've mind-controlled the masses, and only the whackos and bunkered-up survivalists can save the world! And it's selling like hotcakes. There's a summary of it at and RPGnet reviews at It's funnier than hell, too. It's a lot funnier than anything that's come out for Paranoia in the last 8 years or so, and miles funnier than that execrable Men in Black game; whatever made anyone think MiB (or Paranoia 5th Ed) should be slapstick instead of deadpan sarcasm? -- Mark Hughes Disclaimer: I do not have an orbital mind control laser; you are free to post your own opinion, but be prepared to back it up, because I *will* call you on it if I think it's bullshit. That's how the Internet, and life, works. ###### From: kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 8 May 2000 05:30:46 GMT Organization: the Satellite of Love Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39138002.10992720@newsch.es.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: gecko.roadtoad.net Keywords: Hexapodia as the key insight X-X: http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/documents/x-headers.html User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (FreeBSD) Cache-Post-Path: gecko!kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!prairie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!12.127.17.144!attbt1!ip.att.net!news.fsr.net!kamikaze Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5648 Sat, 06 May 2000 02:19:47 GMT in <39138002.10992720@newsch.es.co.nz>, Dillon Burke spake: >Right now I think I would be tempted to make some liberal >interpretations of apocalyptic literature like the Revelation of St >John. >First you throw in the natural disasters, like a mega-quake in >California, that allows you to change the balance of power in the >world. From there you can probably spin a more plausible invasion of >the US by forces of Babylon, the New World Order, or the Last World >Emperor. >Later on you can add the Heavanly Host marching on Las Vegas or >whatever. Oh, yeah, that's another take: _Armageddon_, by C.J. Carella, is the best of those. Great game, utterly horrid editing (no, no matter how bad you think it could be, it's WORSE). Wait for the new Eden Studios edition. The "Army of Revelations" (the "Antichrist"'s empire) is like the Nazis hybridized with Cthulhu. And it applies an amazingly inventive gnostic spin to the mythology. _Rapture_ is a more "realistic" take on it, but both the system and the setting blow small furry chunks, and it doesn't contain anything you can't find in a thousand fundie christian "The Apocalypse is Nigh!" tracts. Don't waste your money on it. _The End_ is reputed to be similar, but I haven't seen it yet. -- Mark Hughes Disclaimer: I do not have an orbital mind control laser; you are free to post your own opinion, but be prepared to back it up, because I *will* call you on it if I think it's bullshit. That's how the Internet, and life, works. ###### From: "S. John Ross" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 8 May 2000 05:31:18 GMT Organization: Diogenes Studios Lines: 12 Message-ID: <01bfb8ae$b3a330a0$5d6902d0@john---sandra> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8etu4a$8gq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <39130D60.787F@le.ac.uk> <8f1knt$3bm$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Trace: hiram.io.com 957763878 29263 208.2.105.93 (8 May 2000 05:31:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@io.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!209.113.65.250!korova.insync.net!solomon.io.com!hiram.io.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5743 | Palladium's _Systems Failure_ is almost exactly that If you end the quote right there, and take it out of context, it would make a very unkind review blurb :) -- || S. John Ross || Husband · Cook · Writer || In That Order || http://www.io.com/~sjohn/fonts.htm - FONTS FOR GAMERS ###### From: "A.F. Simpson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 13:33:56 -0700 Organization: University of Leicester Lines: 24 Message-ID: <391724B4.37B7@le.ac.uk> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8etu4a$8gq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <39130D60.787F@le.ac.uk> <8f1knt$3bm$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc42.cmht.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: rook.le.ac.uk 957789211 466031 143.210.176.54 (8 May 2000 12:33:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@le.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 May 2000 12:33:31 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!leicester!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5773 dspweg@hotmail.com wrote: > In article <39130D60.787F@le.ac.uk>, > "A.F. Simpson" wrote: > > They have successfully infiltrated and brainwashed the American army > > in order to use them, in conjunction with Russian and other forces, to > > oppress their fellow citizens and bring in The New World Order. > So you are giving me a game where the PC's are David Korresh and Randy > Weaver and the NPC's are the Feds. WEG"s made some stupid choices > (many of them my fault) but you have postulated probably the most > unsaleable RPG line I've ever seen or heard of. First you make the PCs characters really _believe_ in their, um, quirky viewpoints; they're an oppressed minority and they're sooooo coooool. Then you call the Feds 'Men in Black' and 'HITMarks'. Now you've got a near-future Mage scenario. You can make the most unsavoury character concepts saleable if you just keep repeating "they're the bad guys, you're the good guys" throughout the rulebook. > Scott love Anna ###### From: ed Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 00:14:06 +0100 Organization: Team Rodent Approved: Apparently Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: edhogg@equus.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: equus.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: equus.demon.co.uk:158.152.255.217 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 957827520 nnrp-03:2072 NO-IDENT equus.demon.co.uk:158.152.255.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!fu-berlin.de!newspeer.ebone.net!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!equus.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5964 The noble matt@black101.demon.co.uk (Matt Birdsall) spake on the day of Thu, 4 May 2000 22:31:48 +0100: >DC wrote: > >> > >> > >I know about the genre (I was thinking of doing something closer to the >> > >old "Invasion" story from 2000AD) >> > >> > Oh gods, you get to play Bill Savage, singlehandedly blasting the >> > Volgans out of the UK with his trusty shotgun?! >> >> Drekk, damn volgs!!! >> >> -- >Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light >of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? America, seriously. A couple of elections down the line, after a short spell of isolationism and right-wing govt, they decide that allies such as the UK who want US radar bases off UK soil, those involved with the American ABM program, should be "convinced" that in the best interests of insular America, perhaps a few troops should be sent to keep those UK bases safe. ed -- edhogg@equus.demon.co.uk | Dragons Rescued | _//// http://www.equus.demon.co.uk/ | Maidens Slain | o_/o /// For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, RPGs, | Quests P.O.A. | __\ ///__ Science-Fiction and other stuff | | <*> ###### Message-ID: <39176D8E.6497@wizvax.net> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 21:44:46 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 8 May 2000 21:47:02 -0400, cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com Lines: 10 XPident: Unknown X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!192.148.253.68!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.mv.net!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5999 Having come down firmly on the side of "Aliens" as the only reasonable possibility for a successful force of invaders of the USA, I will note that in my current PBEM I wrote up a future in which a large number of factors combine to end up getting the US conquered by Japan. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: neelk@brick.cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 9 May 2000 02:24:17 GMT Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: neelk@alum.mit.edu X-Trace: E6/Znj6L+3uMUuFEPk0OtnxBARrAWKr+hAEtqsRneBQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 May 2000 02:24:17 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!neelk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5944 ed wrote: > >Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light > >of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? > > America, seriously. > > A couple of elections down the line, after a short spell of > isolationism and right-wing govt, they decide that allies such as > the UK who want US radar bases off UK soil, those involved with the > American ABM program, should be "convinced" that in the best > interests of insular America, perhaps a few troops should be sent to > keep those UK bases safe. I don't see how a isolationist government would justify invading another country? Which happens to be a nuclear-armed Great Power? For the sake of military bases which match the very definition of foreign entanglements? The strain of isolationism in US politics doesn't say "we must rule the world to be safe," it says "if we pretend the outside world doesn't exist then it will go away." These people support European military union on the grounds it will let the US withdraw from NATO, and think that Japan should re-arm so that America can abandon the Pacific East. The governing analogy for these people is with republican Rome; they think that foreign entanglements will inevitably give the US its Caesar, who will strip the Republic's citizens of their liberties. You can take the analogy as far as you want -- for example, one might view Europeans as the Greeks to America's Roman farmers, and contact with that decadent lot will rob the US of the simple civic virtues that made it great. For the record, these are not my politics. But I do admire the misreading of Tocqueville and Gibbon that produced it. It's so much more literate than the common run of political drivel. :) Neel ###### From: David Crowe Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 9 May 2000 04:03:17 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8f82m5$jr7$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39176D8E.6497@wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: usr07.primenet.com X-Complaints-To: abuse@globalcenter.net X-Posted-By: jetman@206.165.6.207 (jetman) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!news.primenet.com!jetman Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5900 Sea Wasp wrote: : Having come down firmly on the side of "Aliens" as the only reasonable : possibility for a successful force of invaders of the USA, I will note : that in my current PBEM I wrote up a future in which a large number of : factors combine to end up getting the US conquered by Japan. What kind of factors? Stronger Japan, weaker, more decadant US or both? -- David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman Rec.games.frp.moderated moderated passes 205:71 YES! ###### Message-ID: <3917EE24.7D3D@wizvax.net> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 06:53:24 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39176D8E.6497@wizvax.net> <8f82m5$jr7$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 9 May 2000 06:55:37 -0400, cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com Lines: 28 XPident: Unknown X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.mv.net!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6002 David Crowe wrote: > > Sea Wasp wrote: > : Having come down firmly on the side of "Aliens" as the only reasonable > : possibility for a successful force of invaders of the USA, I will note > : that in my current PBEM I wrote up a future in which a large number of > : factors combine to end up getting the US conquered by Japan. > > What kind of factors? Stronger Japan, weaker, more decadant US or both? Both and more than that. I assumed some of our worse xenophobic tendencies from the past couple decades got worse, and we elected a really far-out loon to the Presidency (and lots of his fellow-travellers into Congress). In the meantime, the nostalgic hardliners in Japan managed to gain control there, partly in reaction to the US's increasingly paranoid behavior. A number of other events occurred that kept the psychos in power while the rest of the world started distancing itself from both sides, but the USA made the mistake of relying on its current position as a virtually unbeatable military power; Japan came up with a way around this, and ended up in control. The whole writeup for the background (even as a summary) is pretty long. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 09:31:19 -0400 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 22 Message-ID: <39181327.D4A59C46@myriad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39176D8E.6497@wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 May 2000 15:23:31 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!triton.skycache.com!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!newsfeed.yosemite.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:5834 Sea Wasp wrote: > > Having come down firmly on the side of "Aliens" as the only reasonable > possibility for a successful force of invaders of the USA, I will note > that in my current PBEM I wrote up a future in which a large number of > factors combine to end up getting the US conquered by Japan. > > -- > Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html > /^\ > ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at > http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html I could also see biological warfare working. Country X (say China, but it could be somewhere else) develops a tailored super-virus that can kill/immobilize the vast majority of the country all at once (programmed to 'detonate' exactly 5 years after it was first released, perhaps). Then conquest becomes much more practical. PCs could all be those lucky 1 in 100 million who are immune, perhaps. :-) Kiz ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 14:50:50 -0400 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 30 Message-ID: <39185E0A.3889CB47@myriad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39176D8E.6497@wizvax.net> <39181327.D4A59C46@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 May 2000 20:43:03 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp.flash.net!nntp.giganews.com!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6013 Wayne Shaw wrote: > > On Tue, 09 May 2000 09:31:19 -0400, "Frank T. Sronce" > wrote: > > > I could also see biological warfare working. Country X (say China, but > >it could be somewhere else) develops a tailored super-virus that can > >kill/immobilize the vast majority of the country all at once (programmed > >to 'detonate' exactly 5 years after it was first released, perhaps). > >Then conquest becomes much more practical. PCs could all be those lucky > >1 in 100 million who are immune, perhaps. :-) > > The classic problem with that is, how do you ensure it won't effect > your own people? Biology is rarely so tidy that it's possible to set > up something that attacks one group and _only_ one group. You can set > up something that tends to unpreportionately work on one group by > picking on a genetic trait, but the problem with the U.S. is it's so > polyglot that there's likely nothing we have in common that the rest > of the planet doesn't generally have too. On the other hand, if you > take the approach of simply innoculating your own side, it's hard to > set it up universally without getting an intelligence leak. "China announces campaign to eliminate Measles from the population. Mass, mandatory innoculations ordered. UN lauds effort..." Very few people need know that the mass-produced Measles vaccine _also_ stops the ultra-secret OmegaPlague(tm). Yeah, it's farfetched, but not as farfetched as most 'America Invaded!' scenarios. Kiz ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39176D8E.6497@wizvax.net> <39181327.D4A59C46@myriad.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 20:10:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.30 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 957903027 208.153.245.30 (Tue, 09 May 2000 13:10:27 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 13:10:27 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6082 On Tue, 09 May 2000 09:31:19 -0400, "Frank T. Sronce" wrote: > I could also see biological warfare working. Country X (say China, but >it could be somewhere else) develops a tailored super-virus that can >kill/immobilize the vast majority of the country all at once (programmed >to 'detonate' exactly 5 years after it was first released, perhaps). >Then conquest becomes much more practical. PCs could all be those lucky >1 in 100 million who are immune, perhaps. :-) The classic problem with that is, how do you ensure it won't effect your own people? Biology is rarely so tidy that it's possible to set up something that attacks one group and _only_ one group. You can set up something that tends to unpreportionately work on one group by picking on a genetic trait, but the problem with the U.S. is it's so polyglot that there's likely nothing we have in common that the rest of the planet doesn't generally have too. On the other hand, if you take the approach of simply innoculating your own side, it's hard to set it up universally without getting an intelligence leak. ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 17:19:29 -0400 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 46 Message-ID: <391880E1.721AD78@myriad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 May 2000 23:11:41 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!209.113.65.250!korova.insync.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6006 Eric Tolle wrote: > > Cathy H. wrote: > > > > Something I've liked is the idea that invading Earth could be pretty much > > the alien society's Vietnam. > > That would fall under the category of "Aliens being incredibly > stupid". > > After all, unless Humans have similar levels of technology, once the > aliens get the high ground, the conflict is effectively over. If > some of the monkeys give the invaders trouble, drop a rock on them. > In fact, by dropping some good sized rocks in each of the oceans, > the majority of the human's ability to resist will be taken away. > they don't even have to be of a size to cause major environmental > damage- assuming the invaders would even care about such. > You can always assume that their slower-than-light drives use regular physics, making fuel very expensive and dropping rocks a slow and problematic business. Also, overconfidence could cause them to land the vast majority of their ships after the initial assault and dismantle them for parts in the new colonies they're building. After all, the poor, low-tech natives have been thoroughly crushed, so why leave valuable parts in orbit? Of course, realistically, a highly advanced alien race would probably show up, dose the planet with a tailored human-killing disease, then settle in. I seem to recall that the Psychlos conquered the earth in _Battlefield Earth_ about like that. When they found that their poison gas had failed to reach a few human settlements, they landed and crushed the remaining resistance in person. Mostly because they figured it was more fun to land and wipe out the remaining humans by hand, rather than re-dose the planet with more poison gas. Kiz > -- > > Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com > People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. > Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, > and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### X-Originating-Host: 206.17.88.100 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 36 From: Ham Salad Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <1156915c.bb32b6ed@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> Bytes: 1422 X-Wren-Trace: eExpQUBZHlQfBGdXSABMQX5XU11ESQVWB0NMQgUKBVoNG1sDGlQXExAd Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 15:55:31 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.14 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 957913590 10.0.2.14 (Tue, 09 May 2000 16:06:30 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 16:06:30 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6101 In article <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk>, matt@black101.demon.co.uk (Matt Birdsall) wrote: >Thats an idea. If you were running "The Price of Freedom" now, in light >of the politcal changes since '85, who would your invaders be? OK, it's the near future. The anti-trust case against Microsoft has been sitting in endless appeal for years, and thanks to a series of increasingly stupid pro-business laws and patent rulings Windows 2005 has a 99.9% market share for all computers. Virtually everything in the country has a computer chip in it, including all the legal-to-own firearms and the oh-aint-we-cool military equipment. At which point: A) Someone writes a really nasty virus, B) Bill Gates puts his Master Plan into effect, or C) The whole stupid thing just ups and crashes. resulting in the whole damn infrastructure of the civilized world going to hell in a handbasket, then: A) Islamic Fundamentalists sweep forth and attempt to conquer the world, B) It's Bill G.'s private army versus the nutcase survivalist types with their stashes of 20th-century gear, or C) Brave hackers attempt to restore the world using Linux while fighting off the Amish revivalists. Ham Salad ..make that "Brother Hamish" * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### Message-ID: <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 15:55:37 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.218.98 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 957909844 207.71.218.98 (Tue, 09 May 2000 15:04:04 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 15:04:04 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 15:04:04 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6010 Cathy H. wrote: > > Something I've liked is the idea that invading Earth could be pretty much > the alien society's Vietnam. That would fall under the category of "Aliens being incredibly stupid". After all, unless Humans have similar levels of technology, once the aliens get the high ground, the conflict is effectively over. If some of the monkeys give the invaders trouble, drop a rock on them. In fact, by dropping some good sized rocks in each of the oceans, the majority of the human's ability to resist will be taken away. they don't even have to be of a size to cause major environmental damage- assuming the invaders would even care about such. -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Message-ID: <7ZgYOQcDO+=8hljrKfjxRY2JQGzf@4ax.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39176D8E.6497@wizvax.net> <39181327.D4A59C46@myriad.net> <39185E0A.3889CB47@myriad.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 23:04:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.30 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 957913454 208.153.245.30 (Tue, 09 May 2000 16:04:14 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 16:04:14 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6085 > "China announces campaign to eliminate Measles from the population. >Mass, mandatory innoculations ordered. UN lauds effort..." And do they get them all? No one notices all the vaccine comes from one source (remember, you can't let it be manufactured too many places, or the chance for a leak goes up immesurably)? No foreign doctors get interested in this new vaccine? > Very few people need know that the mass-produced Measles vaccine _also_ >stops the ultra-secret OmegaPlague(tm). Yeah, it's farfetched, but not >as farfetched as most 'America Invaded!' scenarios. Perhaps true, but it still is rather dependent on people being rather asleep at the switch, and requires a far more stable bioweapon than we have any reason to believe is possible. ###### Message-ID: <3918AB95.6A7C@wizvax.net> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 20:21:41 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 9 May 2000 20:23:58 -0400, cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com Lines: 37 XPident: tuulia X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6162 Eric Tolle wrote: > > Cathy H. wrote: > > > > Something I've liked is the idea that invading Earth could be pretty much > > the alien society's Vietnam. > > That would fall under the category of "Aliens being incredibly > stupid". > > After all, unless Humans have similar levels of technology, once the > aliens get the high ground, the conflict is effectively over. If > some of the monkeys give the invaders trouble, drop a rock on them. > In fact, by dropping some good sized rocks in each of the oceans, > the majority of the human's ability to resist will be taken away. > they don't even have to be of a size to cause major environmental > damage- assuming the invaders would even care about such. Fun as it is to play "Humanity Uber Alles", the above is depressingly true. Hell, Niven and Pournelle *HAD* incredibly stupid (or at least heavily biologically/culturally circumscribed) aliens in _Footfall_, and there wasn't any doubt whatsoever that the human victory in that book was due at LEAST as much to luck as it was to clever human planning. Harry Turtledove constrains the actions of the Lizards by the standard device of "Jesus those monkeys think fast!", AND by having them have a real, inarguable need to damage the planet as little as possible. The Lizards could clearly still win, if they were willing to go to a war of sky bombardment rather than actual invasion. So yes, you need either stupid aliens or ones heavily, heavily constrained by a set of conditions which do not restrain us. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: jwalters@toad.net Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Message-ID: <3918b9aa.4072119@news.toad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <3918AB95.6A7C@wizvax.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 35 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 01:36:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.114.184 X-Complaints-To: abuse@toad.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 957922339 209.150.114.184 (Tue, 09 May 2000 21:32:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 21:32:19 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6045 On Tue, 09 May 2000 20:21:41 -0400, Sea Wasp wrote: >Eric Tolle wrote: >> >> After all, unless Humans have similar levels of technology, once the >> aliens get the high ground, the conflict is effectively over. If >> some of the monkeys give the invaders trouble, drop a rock on them. >> In fact, by dropping some good sized rocks in each of the oceans, >> the majority of the human's ability to resist will be taken away. >> they don't even have to be of a size to cause major environmental >> damage- assuming the invaders would even care about such. > > Fun as it is to play "Humanity Uber Alles", the above is depressingly >true. Hell, Niven and Pournelle *HAD* incredibly stupid (or at least >heavily biologically/culturally circumscribed) aliens in _Footfall_, and >there wasn't any doubt whatsoever that the human victory in that book >was due at LEAST as much to luck as it was to clever human planning. One thing that struck me about _Footfall_ was just how hard Niven and Pournelle had to work to give humanity even a chance of victory. The Snouts had the absolute minimum technology that could credibly pull off an interstellar invasion. They did not invent this technology, they got the technology from another alien race, and they still hadn't figured it out completely yet. The Snouts themselves had not yet evolved to a human level of intelligence, and were considerably less agile and dexterous than humans. The humans figured out the basics Snout of psychology and social structure within days, while the Snouts were barely starting to get a handle on human psychology at the end of the book. If Niven and Pournelle had used their Moties to invade the Earth, humanity wouldn't have had a chance in hell of winning. ###### Message-ID: <3918C2BE.4205@wizvax.net> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 22:00:30 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <3918AB95.6A7C@wizvax.net> <3918b9aa.4072119@news.toad.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 9 May 2000 22:02:46 -0400, cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com Lines: 17 XPident: multics X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.yosemite.net!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6160 jwalters@toad.net wrote: > If Niven and Pournelle had used their Moties to invade the Earth, > humanity wouldn't have had a chance in hell of winning. That was part of the point of _Mote_, of course. The Moties were so friggin' dangerous that even the EMPIRE might not be able to beat 'em if they got out. Earth? Not a chance. Well, not the Earth in THAT universe. Now if they tried invading Earth of a Doc Smith universe... -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: "A.F. Simpson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:57:34 -0700 Organization: University of Leicester Lines: 46 Message-ID: <3919BF2E.1BDF@le.ac.uk> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39176D8E.6497@wizvax.net> <39181327.D4A59C46@myriad.net> <39185E0A.3889CB47@myriad.net> <7ZgYOQcDO+=8hljrKfjxRY2JQGzf@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc42.cmht.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: rook.le.ac.uk 957959801 28892 143.210.176.54 (10 May 2000 11:56:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@le.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 May 2000 11:56:41 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!leicester!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6132 Wayne Shaw wrote: > > > "China announces campaign to eliminate Measles from the population. > >Mass, mandatory innoculations ordered. UN lauds effort..." > > And do they get them all? Let's be honest here, if you have a government willing to use biological weapons to wipe out the rest of the world, it's not impossible that they would be willing at accept a few own goals. Maybe even quite a lot of own goals. > No one notices all the vaccine comes from > one source (remember, you can't let it be manufactured too many > places, or the chance for a leak goes up immesurably)? There are surprisingly few vaccine makers in the world. I don't think it would cause huge commment if an inward looking nation started a government programme to 'promote independance from foreign manufacturers'. >No foreign doctors get interested in this new vaccine? Just make the new vaccine sound unsavoury enough that no-one wants to. in, I think ,the 1950s the Russians made a vaccine against Crimean-Congo Haemorrhagic Fever Virus. The manufacturing process basically involved infecting mice with CCHF in order to grow large amounts of the virus, fixing the mouse brains in formaldehyde, grinding the brains up and injecting the result into people. It allegedly worked quite well, but it's wasn't exactly something people stampeded to copy. > > Very few people need know that the mass-produced Measles vaccine _also_ > >stops the ultra-secret OmegaPlague(tm). Yeah, it's farfetched, but not > >as farfetched as most 'America Invaded!' scenarios. > > Perhaps true, but it still is rather dependent on people being rather > asleep at the switch, and requires a far more stable bioweapon than we > have any reason to believe is possible. True. But lots of games have huge gaping plausibility gaps in them. I think it's better to make sure as many of them as possible happen before the action starts, so the players can get on with dealing with the consequences. love Anna ###### From: neelk@brick.cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 10 May 2000 22:26:06 GMT Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <3918AB95.6A7C@wizvax.net> <3918b9aa.4072119@news.toad.net> <3918C2BE.4205@wizvax.net> Reply-To: neelk@alum.mit.edu X-Trace: 3Cox3iAldxcvrUB4gnxc8ULhBm/L9MiwBfqFIctBi5c= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 May 2000 22:26:06 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!neelk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6215 Sea Wasp wrote: > jwalters@toad.net wrote: > > > If Niven and Pournelle had used their Moties to invade the Earth, > > humanity wouldn't have had a chance in hell of winning. > > That was part of the point of _Mote_, of course. The Moties were so > friggin' dangerous that even the EMPIRE might not be able to beat > 'em if they got out. Earth? Not a chance. Well, not the Earth in > THAT universe. I might have found tMiGE more convincing if I had been able to believe in the Moties for 30 seconds. It's sad that two libertarian authors revealed such abject ignorance of how markets function. :/ (Constant returns to scale. Doubling the number of Moties won't double the amount of industrial production, unless you double the number of Motie factories too. Given this fact, a Motie nation that invests in contraceptives and tanks/artillery/air-support will splatter any Motie nation that spent all their resources on population growth, even though its absolute population is smaller. The entire boom-bust history of the Motie species Just Doesn't Work.) Neel ###### From: neelk@brick.cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 12 May 2000 22:02:36 GMT Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <391880E1.721AD78@myriad.net> <391C8474.440DF3F0@silcom.com> Reply-To: neelk@alum.mit.edu X-Trace: NNaYHKs/iX5x6vlkzjnuUHiK+mv/C6W4Q1UtkNPCwMQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 May 2000 22:02:36 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!neelk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6416 Eric Tolle wrote: > > "Realistically" a highly advanced race may simply ignore the Earth. > After all, what does Earth give them that Mars, The Jovian satellites, > or the Kuiper belt cannot supply? They're after our women! Neel ###### Message-ID: <391C808A.219D@wizvax.net> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 18:07:06 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <3918AB95.6A7C@wizvax.net> <391C8A0D.26158420@silcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 12 May 2000 18:10:13 -0400, cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com Lines: 21 XPident: wilson X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!colt.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-89.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6425 Eric Tolle wrote: > > Sea Wasp wrote: > > Harry Turtledove constrains the actions of the Lizards by the standard > > device of "Jesus those monkeys think fast!", AND by having them have a > > That I think dates back to Campell's dictum that the humans _had_ to > be superior. Not completely. I don't know who first came up with it, but it dates from the first time an SF writer noticed how bloody fast our technology and science were progressing in THIS era as compared with all our prior civilizations. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### Message-ID: <391C8474.440DF3F0@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <391880E1.721AD78@myriad.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 65 Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 15:23:49 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.237.181 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 958167078 207.71.237.181 (Fri, 12 May 2000 14:31:18 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:31:18 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:31:19 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6393 Frank T. Sronce wrote: > > After all, unless Humans have similar levels of technology, once the > > aliens get the high ground, the conflict is effectively over. If > > some of the monkeys give the invaders trouble, drop a rock on them. > > In fact, by dropping some good sized rocks in each of the oceans, > > the majority of the human's ability to resist will be taken away. > > they don't even have to be of a size to cause major environmental > > damage- assuming the invaders would even care about such. > > > > You can always assume that their slower-than-light drives use regular > physics, making fuel very expensive and dropping rocks a slow and > problematic business. Also, overconfidence could cause them to land the Expensive fuel? Fusion drives would use hydrogen. That's very cheap. If they have a drive capable of sending an invasion (or colonization) force over an interstellar distance, then they have the power to move asteroids. and using "regular physics" and projected drives, transit time would still be in the decades to centuries. Waiting a matter of months or years to drop an asteroid would be trivial. More important is figuring out why the aliens would _want_ to invade the Earth. There was a thread in rec.arts.sf.science where the common motivations for invading a planet were examined and found wanting. > vast majority of their ships after the initial assault and dismantle > them for parts in the new colonies they're building. After all, the > poor, low-tech natives have been thoroughly crushed, so why leave > valuable parts in orbit? See "aliens being incredibly stupid" above. Why not leave the valuable parts in orbit? After all, they've been in space for decades to centuries all ready... > Of course, realistically, a highly advanced alien race would probably > show up, dose the planet with a tailored human-killing disease, then "Realistically" a highly advanced race may simply ignore the Earth. After all, what does Earth give them that Mars, The Jovian satellites, or the Kuiper belt cannot supply? > settle in. I seem to recall that the Psychlos conquered the earth in > _Battlefield Earth_ about like that. When they found that their poison > gas had failed to reach a few human settlements, they landed and crushed > the remaining resistance in person. Mostly because they figured it was > more fun to land and wipe out the remaining humans by hand, rather than > re-dose the planet with more poison gas. I'm starting to read a book where the aliens simply _ignored_ the humans. Interesting premise, but I'll have to see where it goes. -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### From: neelk@brick.cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 12 May 2000 22:32:06 GMT Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3918b9aa.4072119@news.toad.net> <3918C2BE.4205@wizvax.net> <8fgssh$nlc$1@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> Reply-To: neelk@alum.mit.edu X-Trace: MVPAMmGPwxdNmlr/M42N0Bg4M6Szr7jYqOURTDFAm0A= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 May 2000 22:32:06 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!neelk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6417 James Nicoll wrote: > In article , > Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > > > >I might have found tMiGE more convincing if I had been able to believe > >in the Moties for 30 seconds. It's sad that two libertarian authors > >revealed such abject ignorance of how markets function. :/ > > I assumed the Moties were the Yellow Menace, updated for > the 1970s. The YM wasn't plausible in the 1890s so it is not that > surprising an SFnal version wouldn't be either. > This idea never even occurred to me. I assumed they were trying to stretch the default Campbellian SF universe a bit with a species that did unto mankind as mankind did unto the bug-eyed monsters. Incidentally, you've just reminded me of Glen Cook's _The Dragon Never Sleeps_ and Mark Geston's _Lords of the Starship_, which in very different ways are kind of the default _Astounding_ SF universe meets the Cthulhu mythos. Cook's book is Campbellian humans evolving into Elder Gods, and Geston's book is about heroic engineers corrupted by the Mythos. > Anyone read Pournelle's two Red China thillers? Did population > growth play a role? Although the Moties and the Pak seem to have > similar behavior: maybe Niven is the one who came up with the idea. Population growth was a big idea in the meme pool back then, wasn't it? Kind of like VR to 80s cyberpunk writers and pop culture. Neel ###### Message-ID: <391C8A0D.26158420@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <3918AB95.6A7C@wizvax.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 15:47:41 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.237.181 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 958168507 207.71.237.181 (Fri, 12 May 2000 14:55:07 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:55:07 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:55:07 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!unlisys!news.snafu.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6391 Sea Wasp wrote: > > Eric Tolle wrote: > > After all, unless Humans have similar levels of technology, once the > > aliens get the high ground, the conflict is effectively over. If > > some of the monkeys give the invaders trouble, drop a rock on them. > Fun as it is to play "Humanity Uber Alles", the above is depressingly > true. Hell, Niven and Pournelle *HAD* incredibly stupid (or at least > heavily biologically/culturally circumscribed) aliens in _Footfall_, and > there wasn't any doubt whatsoever that the human victory in that book > was due at LEAST as much to luck as it was to clever human planning. True. Authors either have to jump through hoops to constrain the aliens to the point where the humans have chance, or simply ignore the logical consequences of the technology the aliens should have. "Invasion Earth" looks to be squarely in the second category. Stupid aliens or stupid writers. > Harry Turtledove constrains the actions of the Lizards by the standard > device of "Jesus those monkeys think fast!", AND by having them have a That I think dates back to Campell's dictum that the humans _had_ to be superior. > So yes, you need either stupid aliens or ones heavily, heavily > constrained by a set of conditions which do not restrain us. One reason I have a grudging respect for "Macross" despite it's silliness is that the "invasion" was really just a salvage mission. As long as the ship the aliens were after was away from Earth, they didn't even care about the mudball. At least until the humans started severely messing up their command and control organization. -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### From: Steve M Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <043d3534.d5823200@usw-ex0109-068.remarq.com> Lines: 32 Bytes: 1198 X-Originating-Host: 139.130.215.201 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <3918AB95.6A7C@wizvax.net> <391C8A0D.26158420@silcom.com> <391C808A.219D@wizvax.net> X-Wren-Trace: eAQhCQgRVhxXVwQJEUwAAxs3HAwTBVcdFBoIAh5eHksGTEUQShVCU0ZUU1FEFkZGS1pYWg== Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:13:34 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.68 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon4 958357505 10.0.2.68 (Sun, 14 May 2000 19:25:05 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:25:05 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!novia!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon4.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6589 In article <391C808A.219D@wizvax.net>, Sea Wasp wrote: > Eric Tolle wrote: > > > > Sea Wasp wrote: > > > Harry Turtledove constrains the actions of the > Lizards by the standard > > > device of "Jesus those monkeys think fast!", AND > by having them have a > > > > That I think dates back to Campell's dictum that the > humans _had_ to > > be superior. > Not completely. I don't know who first came up with > it, but it dates > from the first time an SF writer noticed how bloody > fast our technology > and science were progressing in THIS era as compared > with all our prior > civilizations. > -- I'm thinking that the only way to have an Alien Invasion work (storywise) would be to look at the Stargate idea. IMO, great idea, but poorly done (the movie, I don't watch the TV series). But what if the aliens found the gate first? Advantage of surprise, they don't necessarily have the "death from above" advantage, and you can duke it out on the ground. Also, the motives are obvious. * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 15 May 2000 06:42:56 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8fo69g$b7s$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <3918AB95.6A7C@wizvax.net> <391C8A0D.26158420@silcom.com> <391C808A.219D@wizvax.net> <043d3534.d582 NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.74 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6596 Steve M writes: >I'm thinking that the only way to have an Alien Invasion >work (storywise) would be to look at the Stargate idea. >IMO, great idea, but poorly done (the movie, I don't watch >the TV series). But what if the aliens found the gate >first? Advantage of surprise, they don't necessarily have >the "death from above" advantage, and you can duke it out >on the ground. Also, the motives are obvious. Although I agree that the movie was, overall, poorly done (mainly because James Spader's scientist characters was a COMPLETE idiot), it did have one nice point -- namely that the US Government's approach was to blow the Stargate to bits if it turned out that whatever was on the other side was dangerous. The TV series was (is?) pretty good, by the way -- based on the few episodes I've seen, anyway. -- Dan ###### From: John Scott Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:10:19 +0100 Organization: University of Brighton Lines: 12 Message-ID: <150520001310193484%j.f.scott@brighton.ac.uk> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <3918AB95.6A7C@wizvax.net> <391C8A0D.26158420@silcom.com> <391C808A.219D@wizvax.net> <8fo69g$b7s$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mowajfs4.admin.bton.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: saturn.bton.ac.uk 958392630 22807 194.83.112.94 (15 May 2000 12:10:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@bton.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 May 2000 12:10:30 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.2.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!newshost.central.susx.ac.uk!news.bton.ac.uk!j.f.scott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6604 In article <8fo69g$b7s$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>, Dan Bongard wrote: {snip Stargate} > > The TV series was (is?) pretty good, by the way -- based > on the few episodes I've seen, anyway. there's the beginning of an RPG writeup for Stargate:SG1 by John Tynes on his website : http://www.john.tynes.com John ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:24:08 -0400 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 100 Message-ID: <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <391880E1.721AD78@myriad.net> <391C8474.440DF3F0@silcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 May 2000 16:16:21 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6482 Eric Tolle wrote: > > Frank T. Sronce wrote: > > > You can always assume that their slower-than-light drives use regular > > physics, making fuel very expensive and dropping rocks a slow and > > problematic business. Also, overconfidence could cause them to land the > > Expensive fuel? Fusion drives would use hydrogen. That's very cheap. > > If they have a drive capable of sending an invasion (or colonization) > force over an interstellar distance, then they have the power to move > asteroids. and using "regular physics" and projected drives, transit > time would still be in the decades to centuries. Waiting a matter of > months or years to drop an asteroid would be trivial. > _Footfall_ used the premise (sort of) that the aliens colonists came here with a 1-use FTL drive (and cryosleep, I think- it's been awhile). They'd have to build another to return to their home planet. Once they were in our solar system, their tech wasn't much more advanced than anything we had currently- they were just _oriented_ around fighting in space and attacking from space, while the humans weren't prepared for the invasion. > More important is figuring out why the aliens would _want_ to invade > the Earth. There was a thread in rec.arts.sf.science where the > common motivations for invading a planet were examined and found > wanting. > Oh, sure. Only comparatively low-tech aliens would ever _need_ to invade. The most reasonable scenarios I've seen have all pretty much involved aliens showing up and intending to colonize the earth... this generally assumes that they are NOT self-sufficient in their ships (most of the colonists are frozen, there's only enough life-support for the command staff) and will need to set up in on a planet. If they were self-sufficient, Star Trek style, why would they _ever_ land, except out of boredom or curiosity? You could have "poachers" and such, of course... aliens who figure it's cheaper to enslave the locals to do their work, or ransack the planet for some readily available natural resource than it would be to produce whatever it is themselves. Or they could just sell humans off on the intergalactic slave (or zoo) market and no one in the galactic community would notice... or care. > > vast majority of their ships after the initial assault and dismantle > > them for parts in the new colonies they're building. After all, the > > poor, low-tech natives have been thoroughly crushed, so why leave > > valuable parts in orbit? > > See "aliens being incredibly stupid" above. Why not leave the > valuable parts in orbit? After all, they've been in space for > decades to centuries all ready... > Um, because you want to build a colony, right? That means setting up a manufacturing base on the planet itself, and cannibalizing parts from your spaceships is one way to speed the process up. Especially if you're using the 'We come to colonize' scenario and the spaceships _can't_ support all of their people. > > Of course, realistically, a highly advanced alien race would probably > > show up, dose the planet with a tailored human-killing disease, then > > "Realistically" a highly advanced race may simply ignore the Earth. > After all, what does Earth give them that Mars, The Jovian satellites, > or the Kuiper belt cannot supply? > A highly advanced race? Yeah, they'd definitely have no reason to land. I completely agree- I think only relatively low-tech aliens (not much higher than humans) would ever choose to invade... luckily, that's also the only kind of invasion that's any use in an RPG, since the aliens would actually be _beatable_ as opposed to being godlike compared to us. Kiz > > settle in. I seem to recall that the Psychlos conquered the earth in > > _Battlefield Earth_ about like that. When they found that their poison > > gas had failed to reach a few human settlements, they landed and crushed > > the remaining resistance in person. Mostly because they figured it was > > more fun to land and wipe out the remaining humans by hand, rather than > > re-dose the planet with more poison gas. > > I'm starting to read a book where the aliens simply _ignored_ the > humans. Interesting premise, but I'll have to see where it goes. > > -- > > Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com > People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. > Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, > and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 15 May 2000 14:27:43 GMT References: <8fo69g$b7s$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000515102743.06869.00002574@ng-ca1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6551 << Although I agree that the movie was, overall, poorly done (mainly because James Spader's scientist characters was a COMPLETE idiot >> I thought he was brilliant! The best part of the movie was undoubtedly his performance. ###### From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:36:13 -0400 Organization: Prometheus Corp. Lines: 8 Message-ID: <39200B5D.340B@erols.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <3918AB95.6A7C@wizvax.net> <391C8A0D.26158420@silcom.com> <391C808A.219D@wizvax.net> <043d3534.d582 <8fo69g$b7s$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> Reply-To: richberg@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: b3ycXLDgeaSBHDaKoF3KqhLTrMqnGkMPoDXrwcNjvaQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 May 2000 14:38:12 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6630 Dan Bongard wrote: > > Although I agree that the movie was, overall, poorly done > (mainly because James Spader's scientist characters was > a COMPLETE idiot), Can you refresh my memory? What'd he do wrong? ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 15 May 2000 18:31:39 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 39 Message-ID: <8fpfqb$e7o$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <391880E1.721AD78@myriad.net> <391C8474.440DF3F0@silcom.com> <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.72 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6607 "Frank T. Sronce" writes: > Oh, sure. Only comparatively low-tech aliens would ever _need_ > to invade. The most reasonable scenarios I've seen have all pretty much > involved aliens showing up and intending to colonize the earth... this > generally assumes that they are NOT self-sufficient in their ships (most > of the colonists are frozen, there's only enough life-support for the > command staff) and will need to set up in on a planet. If they were > self-sufficient, Star Trek style, why would they _ever_ land, except out > of boredom or curiosity? A planet the size of Earth could comfortably support billions of aliens -- and regardless of tech level, a planet is cheaper to own and operate than six billion people's worth of space-based habitats. You're also overlooking the fact that "able to live in space" does not equate to "prefers to live in space". > A highly advanced race? Yeah, they'd definitely have no reason > to land. With all due respect, that shows a lack of imagination. Besides the colonization point, above, there are plenty of reasons a race -- no matter how advanced -- might choose to invade Earth. Perhaps they find the Earth aethetically pleasing and are conquering it so they can sell the beach-front property to rich folks back home. Perhaps they the intergalactic equivalent of the SPCA and have come to whup ass because we're mean to non-sentient animals. Perhaps they consider human meat a delicacy, but are forbidden for religious or legal reasons from simply cloning off a bunch of human tissue. Then there's the old "religion" excuse -- humans are evil demonic beings for their wicked use of weapons of mass destruction, so High God Yabbayabbadoo demands a holy war, etc. All of these reasons (a) provide justification for an invasion and (b) explain why dropping huge rocks on Earth isn't the way to get the job done. :) -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 15 May 2000 18:33:55 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8fpfuj$igc$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8fo69g$b7s$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <20000515102743.06869.00002574@ng-ca1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.72 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6609 bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) writes: ><< Although I agree that the movie was, overall, poorly done >(mainly because James Spader's scientist characters was >a COMPLETE idiot >> > I thought he was brilliant! He lied to the government and the troops, telling them he could activate the gate from the other side, when in truth he knew he couldn't. This makes him either incredibly stupid or incredibly amoral. -- Dan ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 15 May 2000 21:42:00 GMT References: <8fpfuj$igc$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000515174200.09490.00002920@ng-cn1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6548 << He lied to the government and the troops, telling them he could activate the gate from the other side, when in truth he knew he couldn't. >> He could, in theory- he expected there to be another coverstone nearby. He only "couldn't" do it when he didn't find it- but he did. ###### From: james_n@babbage.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 15 May 2000 22:12:00 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 8 Message-ID: <8fpsng$s40$1@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <391880E1.721AD78@myriad.net> <391C8474.440DF3F0@silcom.com> <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: babbage.uwaterloo.ca X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!triton.skycache.com!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!torn!watserv3.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6590 One might steal an idea from Stephen Baxter: in his Xeelee books, the Xeelee utterly outclass humanity. For reasons apparently related to SB characters all being complete idiots, we do fight a "war" with them, during with they stick humanity in a small box for later. That level of conflict is boring. There's an ecological niche for huan level species living off the garbage of the Xeelee and that's who we come into conflict with. -- ###### Message-ID: <3920858C.E06A21E1@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <391880E1.721AD78@myriad.net> <391C8474.440DF3F0@silcom.com> <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 118 Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:17:32 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.218.129 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 958429530 207.71.218.129 (Mon, 15 May 2000 15:25:30 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:25:30 PDT Organization: None Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!dallas-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6480 Frank T. Sronce wrote: > > Eric Tolle wrote: > > > > Frank T. Sronce wrote: > > > > > You can always assume that their slower-than-light drives use regular > > > physics, making fuel very expensive and dropping rocks a slow and > > > problematic business. Also, overconfidence could cause them to land the > > > > Expensive fuel? Fusion drives would use hydrogen. That's very cheap. > > > > If they have a drive capable of sending an invasion (or colonization) > > force over an interstellar distance, then they have the power to move > > asteroids. and using "regular physics" and projected drives, transit > > time would still be in the decades to centuries. Waiting a matter of > > months or years to drop an asteroid would be trivial. > > > > _Footfall_ used the premise (sort of) that the aliens colonists came > here with a 1-use FTL drive (and cryosleep, I think- it's been awhile). I forget what the Footfall aliens exactly used. I do remember that the aliens were carefully sculpted so that they would be just stupid enough, and have just limited technology enough that the humans could win. > > > > More important is figuring out why the aliens would _want_ to invade > > the Earth. There was a thread in rec.arts.sf.science where the > Oh, sure. Only comparatively low-tech aliens would ever _need_ to > invade. The most reasonable scenarios I've seen have all pretty much > involved aliens showing up and intending to colonize the earth... this Most "colonization" scenarios however, have holes large enough to drive a Star Destroyer through. A lot of it will depend on the technology of the aliens though; if the FTL system is as cheap as it is in Traveller, then invasion colonization might be very feasible. However, the more realistic the technology, the less likely such scenarios work. Without FTL, they tend to strain credibility. > command staff) and will need to set up in on a planet. If they were > self-sufficient, Star Trek style, why would they _ever_ land, except out > of boredom or curiosity? One doesn't need Star Trek's "indistinguishable from a bad plot device" technology to be self- sufficient. One could do it with a reasonable extrapolation of current technology. On the other hand, I've given up trying to have Star Trek make sense, so that may be a bad example. ;'/ > You could have "poachers" and such, of course... aliens who figure it's > cheaper to enslave the locals to do their work, or ransack the planet > for some readily available natural resource than it would be to produce > whatever it is themselves. Or they could just sell humans off on the With sufficiently cheap (and improbable) star travel, one can come up with any number of scenarios. The problem with resource mining is that once one gets interstellar travel levels of technology, there's simply much cheaper sources of raw materials. Then again, with sufficient ignorance of science, one can even have aliens invading for such "rare" resources as water... > Um, because you want to build a colony, right? That means setting up a > manufacturing base on the planet itself, and cannibalizing parts from > your spaceships is one way to speed the process up. Especially if > you're using the 'We come to colonize' scenario and the spaceships > _can't_ support all of their people. If I were even bothering to colonize a planet, I'd put the manufacturing facilities up where resources and energy is plentiful, and easy to get to. Manufactured products would be the only things actually sent down to the planet. In fact, I'd arrange my colonization effort so that I'd stay in orbit and build stuff until I was ready to drop the completed colony infrastructure onto the planet. Keeping manufacturing in space also allows me to easily drop other colonies at different locations, or move my colony should conditions at the surface prove to be inimical, whether due to weather, geology, or annoying natives. One can always create alternate scenarios of course- generally involving either an accident, the aliens not using the technology they would have at their disposal, or having a psychological quirk that has them acting in a less efficient manner. > A highly advanced race? Yeah, they'd definitely have no reason to > land. I completely agree- I think only relatively low-tech aliens (not > much higher than humans) would ever choose to invade... luckily, that's Those scenarios generally assume a massive disparity in technological development- a star drive and easy space travel, with the other technologies ranging from the 1950's to the 1970's. An interesting alternative is to hop off the technology progression bandwagon, and assume that one doesn't need advanced technology for the star drive, or assume that we overlooked some interesting principle allowing easy FTL travel. Say, star travel is possible with a properly modified vacuum tube, or even a Leyden Jar and frog's legs..."Surrender Terrans! You cannot prevail against our muskets and cutlasses! Do our star ironclads not fill you with terror?" -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 15 May 2000 23:52:20 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8fq2jk$9vs$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8fpfuj$igc$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <20000515174200.09490.00002920@ng-cn1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.6f X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!triton.skycache.com!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6606 bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) writes: ><< He lied to the government and the troops, telling them he could >activate the gate from the other side, when in truth he knew >he couldn't. >> > He could, in theory- he expected there to be another coverstone > nearby. He only "couldn't" do it when he didn't find it- but he > did. It was an incredibly stupid move -- there was no guarantee that the coverstone would (a) exist, (b) be legible, and (c) be able to be interpretted by him. The fact that he got lucky doesn't make his initial action any less stupid. The only reason he was able to return is because he lucked out, and there were humans on the other side to explain things to him. Barring that, his actions would have have killed both himself and the rest of the team. -- Dan ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 16 May 2000 00:00:50 GMT References: <8fq2jk$9vs$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000515200050.23647.00002934@ng-ce1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6538 << It was an incredibly stupid move -- there was no guarantee that the coverstone would (a) exist >> If it was there for one side, it would be for another. What would be the point of building two stargates if you could only program one of 'em? << b) be legible >> The one in Egypt was still legible after thousands of years of being buried. Pretty good odds. << and (c) be able to be interpretted by him. >> That's just it- it didn't NEED interpretation. The star constellations on the stone are exactly like the ones on the device, and the seventh symbol is easily inferred. << The only reason he was able to return is because he lucked out, and there were humans on the other side to explain things to him. >> Again- why build a gate to a totally uninhabited planet? If there are any signs of habitation- i.e. a pyramid- it's not too far out to guess that someone would still be living there. If it had been an uninhabited world, so much the better- the stone would have been completely legible and most likely right next to the gate. If anything, the humans made the trip more complicated. ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 8 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 16 May 2000 00:02:58 GMT References: <3920858C.E06A21E1@silcom.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000515200258.23647.00002935@ng-ce1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6546 << Say, star travel is possible with a properly modified vacuum tube, or even a Leyden Jar and frog's legs..."Surrender Terrans! You cannot prevail against our muskets and cutlasses! Do our star ironclads not fill you with terror?" >> "See our magic fire sticks!" ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 16 May 2000 01:21:42 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 216 Message-ID: <8fq7r6$23o$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <391880E1.721AD78@myriad.net> <391C8474.440DF3F0@silcom.com> <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net> <8fpfqb NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.6f Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6593 Eric Tolle writes: >Dan Bongard wrote: >> "Frank T. Sronce" writes: >> A planet the size of Earth could comfortably support billions of >> aliens -- and regardless of tech level, a planet is cheaper to >> own and operate than six billion people's worth of space-based >> habitats. You're also overlooking the fact that "able to live in >> space" does not equate to "prefers to live in space". > Earth is "cheaper" for us to own and operate merely because we > are temporarily concealing the real operating costs. Which operating costs are those? Agriculture is an essentially infinitely renewable resource so long as proper care is taken. So are water, air, and plant/animal life. Pollution and garbage are not insurmountable problems, especially at higher tech levels -- there is no physical reason why a sufficiently advanced technology cannot have a means of recycling disposed items into lumps of component molecules or some such thing. > But that would be a long digression. Go ahead and digress. What expenses do planets have that space-based habitats don't have to an even _worse_ extent? > Anyway, I disagree that in a realistic scenario an alien > planet, with an alien biosphere would be any cheaper to > operate then space habitats- especially since a large portion > of the expense for space colonies is the "transport to space" > cost, and since in a realistic scenario it's going to be cheaper > to build habitats then an interstellar vessel. People shipped via interstellar travel can, in theory, be kept in some sort of suspended animation -- occupying potentially as little as one cubic meter apiece, and consuming very little in the way of food and water. People living in orbital habitats are going to require an absolute minimum of two orders of magnitude more space than that, and that's assuming extremely spartan accomodations; they will also require a lot more support. In addition to that, habitats need to be able to contain the entire population of the race. Spaceships only need to carry that portion of the race which is not currently living on a planet. Let us say you have an alien world, heavily overcrowded, population-regulated, but nevertheless still growing (think China on a global scale). Let's say the population doubles every 100 years, and starts at 100 'units'. This planet has three choices: (A): start actively killing itself off to keep the population down. (B): Build sufficient ships to transport 50-100 units to another world, during the course of 100 years. (C): Build 100 units of orbital habitats over the next hundred years. At first glance "C" might seem like the best option. Let's take another look. Year 0: 100 new units of habitation must be built. Year 100: 200 units of habitation must be built. Year 200: 400 units of habitation must be built. Year 300: 800 units of habitation must be built. Year 400: 1600 units of habitation must be built. Year 500: 3200 units of habitation must be built. [skipping ahead] Year 5000: 112 QUADRILLION units of habitation must be built. All in all, around 250 quadrillion units of habitation (or thereabouts -- I forget the formula for summing exponentials) must be built over the next 50 centuries. Let's take another look at space travel: Year 0: 100 new units of spacecraft must be built. Year 100: 100 new units of spacecraft must be built. Year 200: 100 new units of spacecraft must be built. Year 300: 100 new units of spacecraft must be built. Year 400: 100 new units of spacecraft must be built. Year 500: 100 new units of spacecraft must be built. [skipping ahead] Year 5000: 100 new units of spacecraft must be built. Total: 5100 units of spacecraft, or approximately 20 quadrillionths as much construction. Bear with me, I know that the population on the colonized planets is growing too, but note three points: (1): People in suspended animation don't breed, meaning that the in-transit population doesn't grow. (2): A habitat is used for people to live in; a spaceship is only used for transport, and is thus effectively reusable. 100 units of habitation are condemned to spend eternity holding those 100 units and/or a fraction of their descendants. A spaceship, on the other hand, merely takes the people from A to B and drops them off. Those 100 units then live on the planet, while the ships wait in orbit. 100 years later, when the colony's population has doubled, those EXACT SAME SHIPS can take the population away to yet another new colony. What this means is two things: (1): Colonization slows population growth. (2): New colonies don't need to build spaceships until 200 years after the founding of the colony. Let's compare two civilizations: Civilization Bazboid, the Habitat Race: This race begins with a population of 5 billion, doubling every 100 years. It begins building habitats... 500 years later, 155 billion people's worth of habitats have been built. 500 years after THAT, a little under five trillion people's worth of additional habitation must have been built. Total population after 500 years is 180 billion; total habitats: 175 billion people of living space. Civilization Foobar, the Spacefaring race: Builds a massive fleet every hundred years, sending 10 fleets to 10 different planets over the course of 1000 years, each with 5e9 people in suspended animation. Their home planet is "A"; "1a" means Fleet 1 from planet A. Year 100: Fleet 1a to Planet A, transit time 47 years 200: Fleet 2a to Planet B, time 58 years 247: Fleet 1a to Planet C, time 55 years 300: Fleet 3a to Planet D, time 63 years 347: Fleet 1b to Planet E, time 67 years 358: Fleet 2a to Planet F, time 51 years 400: Fleet 4a to Planet G, time 78 years 402: Fleet 1a to Planet H, time 60 years 447: Fleet 2b to Planet I, time 72 years 463: Fleet 3a to Planet J, time 50 years 500: Fleet 5a to Planet K, time 80 years Total population after 500 years: roughly 55 billion on planets, plus another 15 billion in spaceships. Total spaceships built: enough for 35 billion people stored in suspended animation. The difference between the two races will continue to exponentially increase over time. Space habitats are a short-term solution only; in the long run the only two options are colonization or autocanibalization. > Not to mention the oddness of a race that dislikes living > in space developing star travel any way. There's nothing remotely odd about it, first of all; necessity makes for strange bedfellows. Secondly, I enjoy air travel -- that doesn't mean I want to live in a hot air balloon for the rest of my life. > On the other hand, one can posit space travel systems like > Traveller's, which put mildly, changes the dynamics of the > scenario considerably.. I'm not positing anything more than slower-than-light travel combined with some means of preserving people for the trip. >> With all due respect, that shows a lack of imagination. Besides >> the colonization point, above, there are plenty of reasons a >> race -- no matter how advanced -- might choose to invade Earth. >> Perhaps they find the Earth aethetically pleasing and are >> conquering it so they can sell the beach-front property to >> rich folks back home. Perhaps they the intergalactic equivalent >> of the SPCA and have come to whup ass because we're mean to >> non-sentient animals. Perhaps they consider human meat a >> delicacy, but are forbidden for religious or legal reasons >> from simply cloning off a bunch of human tissue. Then there's >> the old "religion" excuse -- humans are evil demonic beings >> for their wicked use of weapons of mass destruction, so High >> God Yabbayabbadoo demands a holy war, etc. > You forgot the scenario of "Well when the scouts first landed, a > native sold them the planet. Got a bill of sale right here". That's just the technique used for acquistion -- they still need a reason to actually _want_ earth. =) > One can always find silly reasons for aliens to invade What is "silly" about the above reasons? Religion, philosophy, and love of beauty are hardly unheard-of motivations. > But then again, that goes back to the "Aliens are unbelievably > moronic" problem. You are equating "acts in a way other than that which offers the cheapest short-term solution to basic needs" with "moronic", which isn't terribly helpful. >> All of these reasons (a) provide justification for an invasion >> and (b) explain why dropping huge rocks on Earth isn't the >> way to get the job done. :) > You don't need to drop _BIG_ rocks. Fairly smallish rocks > will do. Semantic quibbling -- my point is that the above reasons explain why kinetic weapons of mass destruction wouldn't be the correct way to conquer Earth, given the motivations I cited. -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 16 May 2000 04:19:29 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 73 Message-ID: <8fqi8h$dj7$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8fq2jk$9vs$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <20000515200050.23647.00002934@ng-ce1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.6d X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newspeer.highwayone.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6602 bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) writes: ><< It was an incredibly stupid move -- there was no guarantee that >the coverstone would (a) exist >> > If it was there for one side, it would be for another. That's a fascinating (if baseless) claim, but it isn't enough that the glyphs be there -- they must also be interpretable. They weren't; the ONLY reason the team was able to get back is because there were some local humans able to provide information about the glyphs. > What would be the point of building two stargates if you > could only program one of 'em? One glaringly obvious reason: you only want to be able to open it from one side, thereby making invasions from the other side all-but-impossible. That aside, "unopenable" isn't the only possibility. "Openable, but with a user interface you can't understand" is another. > << b) be legible >> > The one in Egypt was still legible after thousands of years > of being buried. Pretty good odds. You have absolutely no rational basis for believing there are "pretty good odds" the glyphs on the other side would be legible -- especially given that the other side _wasn't_ buried, which means it was exposed to both the elements and to passing vandals (if any). > << and (c) be able to be interpretted by him. >> > That's just it- it didn't NEED interpretation. Wrong. Go watch the movie again -- upon going through the gate, the Spader character was completely unable to interpret the glyphs to open the gate again. >> The only reason he was able to return is because he lucked >> out, and there were humans on the other side to explain >> things to him. > Again- why build a gate to a totally uninhabited planet? One glaringly obvious reason: because it has natural resources you were interested in mining. And what do you know -- that IS why the gate was built. That aside, "inhabited thousands of years in the past" does not mean "inhabited now", nor does it mean "inhabited by people who will know how to operate the gate thousands of years after it was last used". Further note that the Spader character was _surprised_ to find humans on the world, so he obviously wasn't planning on them being there. > If there are any signs of habitation- i.e. a pyramid- > it's not too far out to guess that someone would > still be living there. Emphasis on the word "guess". Is it intelligent to risk both your own life and the lives of others on a "guess", especially without bothering to tell anybody you are just "guessing" so they can check your guesswork for you? Answer: no, it is not intelligent. It is monumentally stupid, in fact. -- Dan ###### From: leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 16 May 2000 08:02:22 GMT Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8fqvae$n6f$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no> References: <3920858C.E06A21E1@silcom.com> <20000515200258.23647.00002935@ng-ce1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: verden.pvv.ntnu.no X-Trace: kopp.stud.ntnu.no 958464142 23759 129.241.210.224 (16 May 2000 08:02:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@itea.ntnu.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 May 2000 08:02:22 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!uninett.no!ntnu.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6536 In article <20000515200258.23647.00002935@ng-ce1.aol.com>, Bokman7757 wrote: ><< Say, star travel is possible >with a properly modified vacuum tube, or even a Leyden Jar and >frog's legs..."Surrender Terrans! You cannot prevail against our >muskets and cutlasses! Do our star ironclads not fill you with >terror?" >> > >"See our magic fire sticks!" This, of course, Has Been Done Already. Harry Turtledove, story titled "The Road Not Taken", unless my memory fails me; star travel was a really simple trick that we just didn't happen to stumble across, so the aliens who try to invade Earth in that one are around a Renaissance tech level. -- Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea, GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll) ###### From: james_n@babbage.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 16 May 2000 13:16:48 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8frho0$nfd$1@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> References: <8fq2jk$9vs$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <20000515200050.23647.00002934@ng-ce1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: babbage.uwaterloo.ca X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!torn!watserv3.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6594 In article <20000515200050.23647.00002934@ng-ce1.aol.com>, Bokman7757 wrote: ><< It was an incredibly stupid move -- there was no guarantee that >the coverstone would (a) exist >> > >If it was there for one side, it would be for another. What would be the point >of building two stargates if you could only program one of 'em? > ><< b) be legible >> > >The one in Egypt was still legible after thousands of years of being buried. >Pretty good odds. The one in Egypt was legible -because- it was buried for thousands of years. An above ground one might have been eroded into illegiblity. -- ###### From: james_n@babbage.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 16 May 2000 13:28:00 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8frid0$np2$1@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <391C8474.440DF3F0@silcom.com> <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net> <8fpsng$s40$1@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: babbage.uwaterloo.ca X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nf1.mgmt.sympatico.ca!torn!watserv3.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6587 Another invasion scenario, stolen from Stableford's _Optiman_: The two sides fighting are at equal tech levels because they are game pieces in a nasty game being played by godlike beings from the next galaxy over: when one side wins, the GLBs extinct both sides and replace them with new playing pieces. Also Stableford, from the _Genesys_ books: humans colonise an alien world via STL. After the ship leaves for the next world, the ability of the local lifeforms to munch on the basic components of high-tech life is noticed as their tech base goes to zero faster than they can adapt. Also Stableford, this time from _Journey to the Centre_: Humans are one high tech species among many, towards the very bottom of the level needed to participate in the interstellar community. We fight a genocidal war against another low-level interstellar species while the high-techers look on with distain, sicne they know with a proper toolkit, resources stop being a bottleneck and there was no reason for us to fight over territory [They struggle over status]. -- ###### From: dddawson@lpl.arizona.edu (Doug Dawson) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 16 May 2000 14:15:37 GMT Organization: Lunar And Planetary Laboratory Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8frl69$b3q$1@news.ccit.arizona.edu> References: <3920858C.E06A21E1@silcom.com> <20000515200258.23647.00002935@ng-ce1.aol.com> <8fqvae$n6f$1@kopp.stud.ntnu.no> Reply-To: dddawson@lpl.arizona.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: dante.lpl.arizona.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!ncar!noao!math.arizona.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!dddawson Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6575 Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y (leifmk@pvv.ntnu.no) wrote: : In article <20000515200258.23647.00002935@ng-ce1.aol.com>, : Bokman7757 wrote: : ><< Say, star travel is possible : >with a properly modified vacuum tube, or even a Leyden Jar and : >frog's legs..."Surrender Terrans! You cannot prevail against our : >muskets and cutlasses! Do our star ironclads not fill you with : >terror?" >> : > : >"See our magic fire sticks!" : This, of course, Has Been Done Already. Harry Turtledove, : story titled "The Road Not Taken", unless my memory fails me; : star travel was a really simple trick that we just didn't happen : to stumble across, so the aliens who try to invade Earth in that : one are around a Renaissance tech level. A really fun story, that one. The aliens detect no sign of antigravity (which is apparently what the stardrive is based on) and are completely flummoxed when they see aircraft, since they _know_ that heavier-than-air flight is impossible without it. And when it comes to automatic weapons fire... There was a sequel story, if I remember correctly, in which it turns out that humans are just about the _only_ race to have missed antigravity, and we proceed to conquer the galaxy with ease, until we find another one like us. ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 16 May 2000 20:45:52 GMT References: <8fqi8h$dj7$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000516164552.19280.00002588@ng-fv1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!psiuk-p4!uknet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6686 << the Spader character was completely unable to interpret the glyphs to open the gate again. >> They're not "glyphs"- they're star constellations. He knew what they were, he just had to find the coverstone to decide on the order. << One glaringly obvious reason: you only want to be able to open it from one side, thereby making invasions from the other side all-but-impossible. >> And how do the passengers on this one way-gate retreat in the event of faliure, or send any messages to its superiors? Also, if they only wanted it open on one side, they wouldn't have made a full, working gate complete with star symbols on the other. << >> The only reason he was able to return is because he lucked >> out, and there were humans on the other side to explain >> things to him. >> Actually, if it hadn't been inhabited, so much the better. The coverstone would have been undisturbed, most likely in a convenient location. ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 16 May 2000 20:48:25 GMT References: <8frho0$nfd$1@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000516164825.19280.00002589@ng-fv1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6687 << The one in Egypt was legible -because- it was buried for thousands of years. An above ground one might have been eroded into illegiblity. >> If the planet is uninhabited, then still whoever was using the gate would have put the coverstone in a safe place so they could reference it whenever they needed. If it's inhabited, than the users would still put it in a safe place so they could use it again. ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 16 May 2000 22:12:33 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 55 Message-ID: <8fsh4h$uv3$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8fqi8h$dj7$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <20000516164552.19280.00002588@ng-fv1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.74 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6696 bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) writes: Could you explain why you are incapable of correctly quoting other people's posts? Not only do you snip all the attributions; you put little "<< >>" symbols around everything. What's up with that? > the Spader character was completely unable to interpret the > glyphs to open the gate again. > They're not "glyphs"- they're star constellations. They are glyphs representing star constellations. He did not know which ones represented which, however. > He knew what they were, he just had to find the coverstone > to decide on the order. Yes, and he wasn't able to do that until one of the natives explained how to do it. Which part of that sentence are you too stupid to understand? [Re: "why would the gate only open from one side?"] > One glaringly obvious reason: you only want to be able to open > it from one side, thereby making invasions from the other side > all-but-impossible. > And how do the passengers on this one way-gate retreat in > the event of faliure, or send any messages to its superiors? Leave the gate open. In the event of failure, retreat through it and close it. Duh. >>> The only reason he was able to return is because he lucked >>> out, and there were humans on the other side to explain >>> things to him. >Actually, if it hadn't been inhabited, so much the better. If it hadn't been inhabited both Spader's character and all the soldiers would have starved to death in the desert, unable to return to Earth. Spader's character couldn't figure out how to open the gate until AFTER he talked to the natives. There are three possible reasons you are unaware of this: (1): You haven't seen the movie, and are wasting my time. (2): You don't remember the movie, and are wasting my time. (3): You weren't intelligent enough to understand when the Spader character explicitly explained why he couldn't open the gate again, and are wasting my time. Regardless of whether the answer is 1, 2, or 3, I see little reason to continue this conversation. -- Dan ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) From: David Fair Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: References: <8fqi8h$dj7$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <20000516164552.19280.00002588@ng-fv1.aol.com> <8fsh4h$uv3$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:24:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.178.62 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 958515889 12.78.178.62 (Tue, 16 May 2000 22:24:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:24:49 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6700 in article 8fsh4h$uv3$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net, Dan Bongard at dbongard@netcom.com wrote on 5/16/00 6:12 PM: > bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) writes: > > Could you explain why you are incapable of correctly quoting > other people's posts? Not only do you snip all the attributions; > you put little "<< >>" symbols around everything. What's up > with that? That is caused by being so dumb you use AOL. Thanks, Dave -- David Fair david.a.fair@worldnet.att.net "Time flows at a rate of one second per second." -- Dr. Dimension ###### From: izzylobo@rochester.rr.com (Scott A. Taylor) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Message-ID: References: <8fqi8h$dj7$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <20000516164552.19280.00002588@ng-fv1.aol.com> <8fsh4h$uv3$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> Organization: We'll let you know when we have some X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4 X-No-Markup: Yes Lines: 23 Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 02:23:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.161.86.208 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rochester.rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyroc.rr.com 958530184 24.161.86.208 (Tue, 16 May 2000 22:23:04 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:23:04 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone.nyroc.rr.com!news.nyroc.rr.com!news.rr.com!typhoon.nyroc.rr.com.POSTED!izzylobo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6654 In article , David Fair wrote: > in article 8fsh4h$uv3$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net, Dan Bongard at > dbongard@netcom.com wrote on 5/16/00 6:12 PM: > > > bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) writes: > > > > Could you explain why you are incapable of correctly quoting > > other people's posts? Not only do you snip all the attributions; > > you put little "<< >>" symbols around everything. What's up > > with that? > > That is caused by being so dumb you use AOL. *Plonk* Life is too short for assholes. -- Scott Taylor Freelancer for Hire Have Powerbook, Will Travel ###### From: BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 17 May 2000 03:31:09 GMT Organization: Bureau of Transport Economics Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8ft3pt$9bs28@cook.dotrs.gov.au> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <391880E1.721AD78@myriad.net> <391C8474.440DF3F0@silcom.com> <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.120.132.197 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!cook.dotrs.gov.au!newsmaster Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6676 In article <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net>, Frank T. Sronce wrote... > > _Footfall_ used the premise (sort of) that the aliens colonists came >here with a 1-use FTL drive (and cryosleep, I think- it's been awhile). Almost. It was a Bussard ramjet, not an FTL drive. I can't remember whether they deliberately threw it away as a 'burn-your-boats' gesture, or whether the mission profile did not allow them enough fuel to slow it down with them. Regards, -- Brett Evill (The opinions expressed above are not those of the Bureau of Transport Economics, the Federal Department of Transport and Regional Services, or the Australian Commonwealth Government.) ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 14:44:43 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3922B05B.7AAC3232@myriad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <391880E1.721AD78@myriad.net> <391C8474.440DF3F0@silcom.com> <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net> <8ft3pt$9bs28@cook.dotrs.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 May 2000 16:36:55 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!korova.insync.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6647 Brett Evill wrote: > > In article <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net>, Frank T. Sronce wrote... > > > > _Footfall_ used the premise (sort of) that the aliens colonists came > >here with a 1-use FTL drive (and cryosleep, I think- it's been awhile). > > Almost. It was a Bussard ramjet, not an FTL drive. I can't remember whether > they deliberately threw it away as a 'burn-your-boats' gesture, or whether the > mission profile did not allow them enough fuel to slow it down with them. > > Regards, > > -- > Brett Evill I think it was a 'burn your boats' move... their psychology meant that they would either conquer the locals or be absorbed into them... any other result was unthinkable. So they wanted to destroy the drive to ensure that if they _were_ absorbed into the locals they couldn't rush back and conquer their own homeworld. I think. It's been a good while since I read it. Kiz -good book, though. I particularly liked the scene where it starts raining in Death Valley. :-) ###### From: ed Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:13:54 +0100 Organization: Team Rodent Approved: Apparently Message-ID: References: <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <391880E1.721AD78@myriad.net> <391C8474.440DF3F0@silcom.com> <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net> <8ft3pt$9bs28@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <3922B05B.7AAC3232@myriad.net> Reply-To: edhogg@equus.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: equus.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: equus.demon.co.uk:158.152.255.217 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 958594284 nnrp-07:29580 NO-IDENT equus.demon.co.uk:158.152.255.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!equus.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6823 The noble "Frank T. Sronce" spake on the day of Wed, 17 May 2000 14:44:43 +0000: >Brett Evill wrote: >> >> In article <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net>, Frank T. Sronce wrote... >> > >> > _Footfall_ used the premise (sort of) that the aliens colonists came >> >here with a 1-use FTL drive (and cryosleep, I think- it's been awhile). >> >> Almost. It was a Bussard ramjet, not an FTL drive. I can't remember whether >> they deliberately threw it away as a 'burn-your-boats' gesture, or whether the >> mission profile did not allow them enough fuel to slow it down with them. >> >> Regards, >> >> -- >> Brett Evill > > > I think it was a 'burn your boats' move... their psychology meant that >they would either conquer the locals or be absorbed into them... any >other result was unthinkable. So they wanted to destroy the drive to >ensure that if they _were_ absorbed into the locals they couldn't rush >back and conquer their own homeworld. I think. It's been a good while >since I read it. > Actually (IIRC) it was so that if the Planet they were setting out to conqueer was too powerful to conquer, but they didn't have Interstellar travel, then they would have a bargaining chip ed -- edhogg@equus.demon.co.uk | Dragons Rescued | _//// http://www.equus.demon.co.uk/ | Maidens Slain | o_/o /// For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, RPGs, | Quests P.O.A. | __\ ///__ Science-Fiction and other stuff | | <*> ###### From: Rick Pikul Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Message-ID: References: <8fqi8h$dj7$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <20000516164552.19280.00002588@ng-fv1.aol.com> <8fsh4h$uv3$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.20 Lines: 93 Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 01:02:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.161.225.241 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 958611749 209.161.225.241 (Wed, 17 May 2000 21:02:29 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:02:29 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6797 In article <8fsh4h$uv3$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com says... > bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) writes: > > Could you explain why you are incapable of correctly quoting > other people's posts? Not only do you snip all the attributions; > you put little "<< >>" symbols around everything. What's up > with that? AOL sucks, 'nuff said.[1] > > the Spader character was completely unable to interpret the > > glyphs to open the gate again. > > > They're not "glyphs"- they're star constellations. > > They are glyphs representing star constellations. He did > not know which ones represented which, however. > > > He knew what they were, he just had to find the coverstone > > to decide on the order. > > Yes, and he wasn't able to do that until one of the natives > explained how to do it. Which part of that sentence are > you too stupid to understand? The only pieces of help he had from a local in getting the Stargate open was that she showed him where the stone was, (saving them searching time), and that she knew what the local glyph was, (which would have been a lot of work to figure out due to the damage to the stone). All the explaining was teaching Daniel how to pronounce the language, which was the only thing that he didn't know about the language they spoke. > [Re: "why would the gate only open from one side?"] > > One glaringly obvious reason: you only want to be able to open > > it from one side, thereby making invasions from the other side > > all-but-impossible. > > > And how do the passengers on this one way-gate retreat in > > the event of faliure, or send any messages to its superiors? > > Leave the gate open. In the event of failure, retreat > through it and close it. Duh. The gate doesn't work like that, while open it's one way and you have to open it from the side you want to leave.[2] > >>> The only reason he was able to return is because he lucked > >>> out, and there were humans on the other side to explain > >>> things to him. > > >Actually, if it hadn't been inhabited, so much the better. > > If it hadn't been inhabited both Spader's character and > all the soldiers would have starved to death in the desert, > unable to return to Earth. They wouldn't have starved, they could still be sent supplies and equipment. Such as a UAV to scout for signs of previous habitation, which would have likely found the city, (which dated from the times the gate was in use), which is where the stone with the glyphs was. > Spader's character couldn't figure > out how to open the gate until AFTER he talked to the natives. Rather, until he found the stone and figured out what the local glyph was, (which could be done by trial and error). > There are three possible reasons you are unaware of this: > > (1): You haven't seen the movie, and are wasting my time. > (2): You don't remember the movie, and are wasting my time. > (3): You weren't intelligent enough to understand when the > Spader character explicitly explained why he couldn't open > the gate again, and are wasting my time. Well, since you are remembering the movie wrong.... [1] I have nothing against AOL users, just some of the ways the software and company behaves. [2] Or more accurately, the 'flow' only allows travel in one direction, (thus a cable will still be able to transmit messages back). This makes for an even better, if power hungry, defense than the iris. -- Phoenix ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 8 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 May 2000 02:31:59 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000517223159.10743.00003301@ng-bj1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6752 << (1): You haven't seen the movie, and are wasting my time. > (2): You don't remember the movie, and are wasting my time. > (3): You weren't intelligent enough to understand when the > Spader character explicitly explained why he couldn't open > the gate again, and are wasting my time. >> (4): You felt a need to attack my credibility instead of focusing on the issue at hand. ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 May 2000 02:34:14 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000517223414.10743.00003302@ng-bj1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6751 << > Spader's character couldn't figure > out how to open the gate until AFTER he talked to the natives. Rather, until he found the stone and figured out what the local glyph was, (which could be done by trial and error). >> Or just guesswork. "Hmm. The glyph for Earth was a pyramid with our sun on top. This world also has only one sun, so they wouldn't use that, but the three moons are different- and hey, there's a glyph here that's a triangle shape with three spheres. Let's try that." ###### From: arbane@soho.ios.com (Arbane the Terrible) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 03:20:21 GMT Organization: IDT (Best News In The World) Lines: 29 Message-ID: <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> Reply-To: arbane@soho.ios.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-45.ts-1.den.idt.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.axxsys.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6720 On Fri, 05 May 2000 19:50:24 -0700, Eric Tolle wrote: >Sea Wasp wrote: >> It would have to be aliens. > >The problem with most alien invasion scenarios is that they either >rely on a McGuffin to defeat the invaders, or the invaders being >unbelievably moronic in their tactics. In nearly all scenarios that >I can think of that are realistic, a race capable of interstellar >travel combined with close-orbit control would have such a huge >advantage over the ground defenders, that unless the defenders had a >similar level of technology, there wouldn't be much of a contest. >part of the problem being that the writer has to go through hoops to >come up with a reason for the aliens to invade the humans on the >humans terms. This may fall under the 'aliens-are-morons' category, but how about an interplanetary version of the Opium Wars? The aliens have us outgunned, but they don't want to take over or exterminate us, just to sell us dangerous crap. Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth has than aliens would want... --- "How different would Usenet be if, instead of a 'Send' button, your news reader had a 'Do you think anyone really cares?' button?" ###### From: Steve M Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <1db9fb3c.6eb3724b@usw-ex0109-068.remarq.com> Lines: 47 Bytes: 1554 X-Originating-Host: 139.130.215.201 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> X-Wren-Trace: eC0IICE4fzV+fi0gOGUpKjIeNSU6LH40PTMhKzd3N2IvZWw5Yzxrem99enhtP29vYnNxcw== Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:27:15 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.68 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 958632537 10.0.2.68 (Wed, 17 May 2000 23:48:57 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:48:57 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6799 In article <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net>, arbane@soho.ios.com (Arbane the Terrible) wrote: > On Fri, 05 May 2000 19:50:24 -0700, Eric Tolle > > wrote: > >Sea Wasp wrote: > >> It would have to be aliens. > > > >The problem with most alien invasion scenarios is > that they either > >rely on a McGuffin to defeat the invaders, or the > invaders being > >unbelievably moronic in their tactics. In nearly all > scenarios that > >I can think of that are realistic, a race capable of > interstellar > >travel combined with close-orbit control would have > such a huge > >advantage over the ground defenders, that unless the > defenders had a > >similar level of technology, there wouldn't be much > of a contest. > >part of the problem being that the writer has to go > through hoops to > >come up with a reason for the aliens to invade the > humans on the > >humans terms. > This may fall under the 'aliens-are-morons' category, > but how about an > interplanetary version of the Opium Wars? The aliens > have us > outgunned, but they don't want to take over or > exterminate us, just to > sell us dangerous crap. > Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth has > than aliens > would want... Our Wimmin! Of course. OR Greetings, Earthling, I'd like to trade this superb halucinogen for all your "Goodies" videos... * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful ###### From: kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 18 May 2000 06:34:43 GMT Organization: the Satellite of Love Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <391880E1.721AD78@myriad.net> <391C8474.440DF3F0@silcom.com> <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net> <8ft3pt$9bs28@cook.dotrs.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: gecko.roadtoad.net Keywords: Hexapodia as the key insight X-X: http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/documents/x-headers.html User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (FreeBSD) Cache-Post-Path: gecko!kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!prairie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!12.127.17.144!attbt1!ip.att.net!news.fsr.net!kamikaze Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6711 17 May 2000 03:31:09 GMT in <8ft3pt$9bs28@cook.dotrs.gov.au>, Brett Evill spake: >In article <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net>, Frank T. Sronce wrote... >> _Footfall_ used the premise (sort of) that the aliens colonists came >>here with a 1-use FTL drive (and cryosleep, I think- it's been awhile). >Almost. It was a Bussard ramjet, not an FTL drive. I can't remember whether >they deliberately threw it away as a 'burn-your-boats' gesture, or whether the >mission profile did not allow them enough fuel to slow it down with them. Burn-your-boats, but they didn't have a choice, anyway - they were the ones who'd decided the Bussard ramjet was not the face of their gods (the prehistoric high-techers), but a star drive. The Traveller fifthp couldn't go home, because home belonged to the even more superstitious fifthps. -- Mark Hughes Disclaimer: I do not have an orbital mind control laser; you are free to post your own opinion, but be prepared to back it up, because I *will* call you on it if I think it's bullshit. That's how the Internet, and life, works. ###### Message-ID: <3923AE89.750B@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> From: Brett Evill X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <391880E1.721AD78@myriad.net> <391C8474.440DF3F0@silcom.com> <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net> <8ft3pt$9bs28@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <3922B05B.7AAC3232@myriad.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: tynslip4.apana.org.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 958639751 202.12.90.168 (Thu, 18 May 2000 18:49:11 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:49:11 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:49:14 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6802 Frank T. Sronce wrote: > > > In article <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net>, Frank T. Sronce wrote... > > > > > > _Footfall_ used the premise (sort of) that the aliens > -good book, though. I particularly liked the scene where it starts > raining in Death Valley. :-) It had some nice touches. But on the whole I thought it suffered because the aliens were too simple. That's also a problem with 'The Mote in God's Eye', but the moties aren't as bad as the snouts. Among Niven & Pournelle stuff I really prefer 'Oath of Fealty' and 'Lucifer's Hammer'. Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 18 May 2000 09:08:39 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 44 Message-ID: <8g0bun$euq$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8fqi8h$dj7$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <20000516164552.19280.00002588@ng-fv1.aol.com> <8fsh4h$uv3$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.76 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6789 Rick Pikul writes: > dbongard@netcom.com says... >>> He knew what they were, he just had to find the coverstone >>> to decide on the order. >> >> Yes, and he wasn't able to do that until one of the natives >> explained how to do it. Which part of that sentence are >> you too stupid to understand? > The only pieces of help he had from a local in getting the >Stargate open was that she showed him where the stone was, (saving them >searching time), and that she knew what the local glyph was, (which would >have been a lot of work to figure out due to the damage to the stone). Mind telling me which part of "he wasn't able to find the coverstone and decide on the order until one of the natives explained how to do it" that contradicts? >>>>> The only reason he was able to return is because he lucked >>>>> out, and there were humans on the other side to explain >>>>> things to him. >>> Actually, if it hadn't been inhabited, so much the better. >> If it hadn't been inhabited both Spader's character and >> all the soldiers would have starved to death in the desert, >> unable to return to Earth. > They wouldn't have starved, they could still be sent supplies > and equipment. Why? They were supposed to be able to return right away without any problem -- that's the story Spader's character decided to peddle, anyway. The military's attitude towards the Stargate was that it represented a threat -- hence the nuclear weapon. On a side note, an additional bit of stupidity on the part of the scientist character was his behavior towards the alien animals -- "ooh look, a strange lifeform! I'll go over and dick around with it!" -- Dan ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: imp@connect.org.uk (M.S. Caldwell) Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Sender: news@csc.liv.ac.uk (News Eater) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:39:28 GMT Lines: 44 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: imp@ulls.connect.liv.ac.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Organization: Computer Science, University of Liverpool, UK X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!newsfeed.esat.net!news.heanet.ie!server5.netnews.ja.net!liv!lucs!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6713 In article <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net>, arbane@soho.ios.com (Arbane the Terrible) writes: > On Fri, 05 May 2000 19:50:24 -0700, Eric Tolle > wrote: > >>Sea Wasp wrote: >>> It would have to be aliens. >> >>The problem with most alien invasion scenarios is that they either >>rely on a McGuffin to defeat the invaders, or the invaders being >>unbelievably moronic in their tactics. In nearly all scenarios that >>I can think of that are realistic, a race capable of interstellar >>travel combined with close-orbit control would have such a huge >>advantage over the ground defenders, that unless the defenders had a >>similar level of technology, there wouldn't be much of a contest. >>part of the problem being that the writer has to go through hoops to >>come up with a reason for the aliens to invade the humans on the >>humans terms. > > This may fall under the 'aliens-are-morons' category, but how about an > interplanetary version of the Opium Wars? The aliens have us > outgunned, but they don't want to take over or exterminate us, just to > sell us dangerous crap. > > Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth has than aliens > would want... > > --- > "How different would Usenet be if, instead of a 'Send' > button, your news reader had a 'Do you think anyone > really cares?' button?" -- Cheers Mark Mark Caldwell Connect Centre, Dept. of Computer Science, University Liverpool. +44 (0)151 794 8185 http://mudhole.spodnet.uk.com/~imp/ ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: imp@connect.org.uk (M.S. Caldwell) Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Sender: news@csc.liv.ac.uk (News Eater) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:42:02 GMT Lines: 22 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: imp@ulls.connect.liv.ac.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Organization: Computer Science, University of Liverpool, UK X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!liv!lucs!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6707 In article <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net>, arbane@soho.ios.com (Arbane the Terrible) writes: > On Fri, 05 May 2000 19:50:24 -0700, Eric Tolle > wrote: > > This may fall under the 'aliens-are-morons' category, but how about an > interplanetary version of the Opium Wars? The aliens have us > outgunned, but they don't want to take over or exterminate us, just to > sell us dangerous crap. > > Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth has than aliens > would want... Well I cant remember the novel but one book I read suggested water. We have lots of it in a readily collectable state with no need for mining. Its useful as reaction mass. Its useful as a coolant. Its useful in building carbon based life forms. Cheers Mark ###### Message-ID: <3923EF2A.670E@wizvax.net> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:24:58 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-71.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-71.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 18 May 2000 09:28:50 -0400, cm-24-29-52-71.nycap.rr.com Lines: 20 XPident: Unknown X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-71.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6826 M.S. Caldwell wrote: > Well I cant remember the novel but one book I read suggested water. Used in "V", this is undoubtedly one of the most STUPID ideas ever seen on film. You want water? You don't have to go infiltrate or conquer a planet with hostile native lifeforms. You can grab it in any damn size you like -- from cubic-meter up to thousands of miles across -- in the Jupiter or Saturn systems. Many of the orbiting objects there, ranging from one of the largest moons down to the particles in the rings, are nothing but dirty iceballs. At least in "V" they were ALSO looking for premade food, which you WON'T find anywhere but on Earth... -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 May 2000 14:44:42 GMT References: <8g0bun$euq$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000518104442.10492.00000015@ng-ce1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!triton.skycache.com!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6750 << On a side note, an additional bit of stupidity on the part of the scientist character was his behavior towards the alien animals -- "ooh look, a strange lifeform! I'll go over and dick around with it!" >> He noticed the harness. It was domesticated. << They were supposed to be able to return right away without any problem >> And if that didn't happen, the military would probably decide to send supplies. << >>> He knew what they were, he just had to find the coverstone >>> to decide on the order. >> >> Yes, and he wasn't able to do that until one of the natives >> explained how to do it. Which part of that sentence are >> you too stupid to understand? > The only pieces of help he had from a local in getting the >Stargate open was that she showed him where the stone was, (saving them >searching time), and that she knew what the local glyph was, (which would >have been a lot of work to figure out due to the damage to the stone). Mind telling me which part of "he wasn't able to find the coverstone and decide on the order until one of the natives explained how to do it" that contradicts? >> If the natives hadn't been there, the coverstone would have been in a different place- but still findable. And they didn't explain the order- one of 'em just stumbled upon the seventh symbol, which as has been pointed out could have been inferred if Jackson had time to study the gate up close. The whole "invasion of Ra" thing cut into his research time. ###### From: jeffj@fnord.io.com (Dr Nuncheon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 18 May 2000 15:00:29 GMT Organization: Illuminati Online Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8g10id$cj6$1@hiram.io.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3923EF2A.670E@wizvax.net> X-Trace: hiram.io.com 958662029 12902 199.170.88.12 (18 May 2000 15:00:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@io.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!nntp.giganews.com!solomon.io.com!hiram.io.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6712 In article <3923EF2A.670E@wizvax.net>, Sea Wasp wrote: >M.S. Caldwell wrote: > >> Well I cant remember the novel but one book I read suggested water. > > Used in "V", this is undoubtedly one of the most STUPID ideas ever seen >on film. I don't remember much of the series, but in the novel it was pretty clear that the water (seawater!) was just a "cover", and I'm pretty sure the aliens were just dumping it, not using it at all. J -- "Boy, you lose one measly continent and people | Jeff Johnston just won't let you forget about it." - Kenneth Hite | "Suppressed Transmissions", _Pyramid_ 5/12/00 | jeffj @ io.com ###### From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:16:45 -0400 Organization: Prometheus Corp. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3924095D.5C62@erols.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> Reply-To: richberg@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 0wp03Ky4XyCSmG95uQJxncP2XgOe1zMXA71hnu+eSjE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 May 2000 15:19:48 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6816 Arbane the Terrible wrote: > > This may fall under the 'aliens-are-morons' category, but how about an > interplanetary version of the Opium Wars? The aliens have us > outgunned, but they don't want to take over or exterminate us, just to > sell us dangerous crap. > > Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth has than aliens > would want... Aliens come to Earth with vastly superior technology, but inferior numbers. (US in Vietnam, Russia in Afghanistan, England in China...) Discover highly addictive euphoric substance manufactured in huge quantities by the humans. Sell technology and resources for this substance until such time as they can build their own infrastructure for it's manufacture. By which time they're mostly lazy addicted slaves to their habits, and "Rome" falls. ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:30:09 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 16 Distribution: world Message-ID: <8g12a1$3is_004@enews.newsguy.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <391880E1.721AD78@myriad.net> <391C8474.440DF3F0@silcom.com> <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net> <8ft3pt$9bs28@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <3922B05B.7AAC3232@myriad.net> <3923AE89.750B@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-485.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6756 In article <3923AE89.750B@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>, Brett Evill wrote: >God's Eye', but the moties aren't as bad as the snouts. Among Niven & >Pournelle stuff I really prefer 'Oath of Fealty' and 'Lucifer's Hammer'. I recently re-read Lucifer's Hammer, and was struck by how it pretty much can't happen outside a window of opportunity from maybe 1978-1982. I keep thinking it would be interesting to run a campaign set after that, using it as the point of divergence. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:33:12 -0400 Organization: Prometheus Corp. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <39240D38.36CA@erols.com> References: <8g0bun$euq$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <20000518104442.10492.00000015@ng-ce1.aol.com> Reply-To: richberg@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: BSlH+McQlHpK8Jdk/81ZgI7Vm7SmXJuUgcMCFIazx3A= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 May 2000 15:36:15 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6818 Bokman7757 wrote: > > << On a side note, an additional bit of stupidity on the part > of the scientist character was his behavior towards the > alien animals -- "ooh look, a strange lifeform! I'll go > over and dick around with it!" >> > > He noticed the harness. It was domesticated. C'mon, never seen a tiger on a chain? Or a vicious gaurd dog? Why assume it's a puppy or camel? ###### From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:34:49 -0400 Organization: Prometheus Corp. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <39240D99.3BA9@erols.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3923EF2A.670E@wizvax.net> <8g10id$cj6$1@hiram.io.com> Reply-To: richberg@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: y73aLtyfOKQRyfJs2abcJc3/hUv3z7tYjjyylX+KtPQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 May 2000 15:37:52 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6819 Dr Nuncheon wrote: > > In article <3923EF2A.670E@wizvax.net>, Sea Wasp wrote: > >M.S. Caldwell wrote: > > > >> Well I cant remember the novel but one book I read suggested water. > > > > Used in "V", this is undoubtedly one of the most STUPID ideas ever seen > >on film. > > I don't remember much of the series, but in the novel it was pretty clear > that the water (seawater!) was just a "cover", and I'm pretty sure the > aliens were just dumping it, not using it at all. Yup, IIRC, water was the publically given reason. Although I thought they were using it. For fuel and drink to ship home. Yeah they could have got it elsewhere but Earth is just so convient for one-stop shopping. ###### From: "A.F. Simpson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:57:40 -0700 Organization: University of Leicester Lines: 39 Message-ID: <39249184.7C53@le.ac.uk> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3923EF2A.670E@wizvax.net> <8g10id$cj6$1@hiram.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc42.cmht.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: rook.le.ac.uk 958668890 171452 143.210.176.54 (18 May 2000 16:54:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@le.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 May 2000 16:54:50 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!server1.netnews.ja.net!leicester!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6810 Dr Nuncheon wrote: > > In article <3923EF2A.670E@wizvax.net>, Sea Wasp wrote: > >M.S. Caldwell wrote: > > > >> Well I cant remember the novel but one book I read suggested water. > > > > Used in "V", this is undoubtedly one of the most STUPID ideas ever seen > >on film. > > I don't remember much of the series, but in the novel it was pretty clear > that the water (seawater!) was just a "cover", and I'm pretty sure the > aliens were just dumping it, not using it at all. I'm almost ashamed to admit I know this, but... The 'cover' reason given by the aliens was that they needed some chemical synthesised on Earth to save their planet. In exchange they would give earth Neat Tech (infinate energy source, cure for cancer, blah, blah, blah). _Actually_, they were shipping the chemical up to the ships and dumping it straight into space. The 'chemical plants' they were using were being used to pump water directly up to the ships. I tihnk the reason was that the water on thier planet was too polluted. God only knows what they'd polluted it with that shipping water half-way across the galaxy was cheaper than just cleaning the place up. They were also herding up people to be used as soldiers in The Leader's wars and as food. This is a mite more plausible because you can't just create sentient servants out of thin air. Presumably they were planning to conquer the whole planet as well, because they were brainwashing all the politicians and othe leaders, although this might have been just to stop people noticing their Evil Plan. > J love Anna ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 18 May 2000 21:44:33 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6uln17lk2m.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 958679073 588 10.0.3.2 (18 May 2000 19:44:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 May 2000 19:44:33 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6828 arbane@soho.ios.com (Arbane the Terrible) writes: > Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth has than aliens > would want... As trashy Sci-Fi films are allowed as explanation: Perhaps they want some hormone that has a drug like effect on them and is found in large quantities in humans just past orgasm. Of course galactic drug dealers would come sneaking in, not as an massive military attack with all guns firing. And they definitely can not afford to kill all humans. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: Steve M Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <00f14e35.72f40d36@usw-ex0109-068.remarq.com> Lines: 24 Bytes: 952 X-Originating-Host: 139.130.215.201 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <6uln17lk2m.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Wren-Trace: eO3I4OH4v/W+vu3g+KXp6vLe9eX67L70/fPh6/e396Lvpaz5o/yruq+9urit/6+vorOxsw== Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:04:57 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.68 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 958692401 10.0.2.68 (Thu, 18 May 2000 16:26:41 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:26:41 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6874 In article <6uln17lk2m.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > arbane@soho.ios.com (Arbane the Terrible) writes: > > Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth > has than aliens > > would want... > As trashy Sci-Fi films are allowed as explanation: > Perhaps they want some hormone that has a drug like > effect on them and > is found in large quantities in humans just past > orgasm. > Of course galactic drug dealers would come sneaking > in, not as an > massive military attack with all guns firing. > And they definitely can not afford to kill all humans. Yeah, but those guys give the CD industry a bad name. Having said that, I still think that one Spice Girls CD could do far more damage than the one those guys would use... * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful ###### From: arbane@soho.ios.com (Arbane the Terrible) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 01:26:35 GMT Organization: IDT (Best News In The World) Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3924982b.8880939@news.idt.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924095D.5C62@erols.com> Reply-To: arbane@soho.ios.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-60.ts-1.den.idt.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.axxsys.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6938 >Aliens come to Earth with vastly superior technology, but >inferior numbers. >(US in Vietnam, Russia in Afghanistan, England in China...) > >Discover highly addictive euphoric substance manufactured in huge >quantities by the humans. Pokemon cards? --- "How different would Usenet be if, instead of a 'Send' button, your news reader had a 'Do you think anyone really cares?' button?" ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 8 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 May 2000 02:36:53 GMT References: <39240D38.36CA@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000518223653.24975.00000130@ng-cn1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6852 << C'mon, never seen a tiger on a chain? Or a vicious gaurd dog? Why assume it's a puppy or camel? >> Dogs and tigers tend not to be used as beasts of burden- which is how that creature was "outfitted". ###### From: neelk@brick.cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 19 May 2000 02:38:03 GMT Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <391397B5.48EE@wizvax.net> <8f2feb$v15$1@nw001t.infi.net> <39189769.E4A78846@silcom.com> <391880E1.721AD78@myriad.net> <391C8474.440DF3F0@silcom.com> <39200888.E10C17CB@myriad.net> <8ft3pt$9bs28@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <3922B05B.7AAC3232@myriad.net> <3923AE89.750B@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> <8g12a1$3is_004@enews.newsguy.com> Reply-To: neelk@alum.mit.edu X-Trace: VuzxQNO26IfzMLwW6llzd1C9vebF/Rrz3PpodhrbBT8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 May 2000 02:38:03 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!neelk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6878 Bruce Baugh wrote: > In article <3923AE89.750B@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>, > Brett Evill wrote: > > > > God's Eye', but the moties aren't as bad as the snouts. Among Niven > > & Pournelle stuff I really prefer 'Oath of Fealty' and 'Lucifer's > > Hammer'. > > I recently re-read Lucifer's Hammer, and was struck by how it pretty > much can't happen outside a window of opportunity from maybe 1978-1982. > I keep thinking it would be interesting to run a campaign set after > that, using it as the point of divergence. The politics in _Lucifer's Hammer_ are more than a little grating, though -- the cannibal black Muslim army being the premiere example. The end of the world had come and gone, and there they were, still worrying about how black people would drive down property values. Aargh! The fithp were interesting in the technical sense of watching N&P constructing interstellar invaders who could credibly lose to the plucky humans, and it had a giant asteroid, so as far as I am concerned there's no reason at all anyone should have to subject themselves to _Lucifer's Hammer_. Neel ###### Message-ID: <3924C16B.1849@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> From: Brett Evill X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: tynslip4.apana.org.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 958710115 202.12.90.168 (Fri, 19 May 2000 14:21:55 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:21:55 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:22:07 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6887 M.S. Caldwell wrote: > > In article <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net>, > arbane@soho.ios.com (Arbane the Terrible) writes: > > > Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth has than aliens > > would want... > > Well I cant remember the novel but one book I read suggested water. We > have lots of it in a readily collectable state with no need for mining. The rings of Saturn have more, in a more collectible state, with less need for mining, no need for containers, and needing far less energy to get it out of its gravitationaly well. The Oort cloud has even more water, even cheaper in energy, but it might be a bit too sparse. Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:23:37 -0400 Organization: Prometheus Corp. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3924C1C9.6AE9@erols.com> References: <39240D38.36CA@erols.com> <20000518223653.24975.00000130@ng-cn1.aol.com> Reply-To: richberg@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: GkrogJPjxBthZS1R1XvraVnVEGAgig9OqFt82bHt/Uk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 May 2000 04:26:34 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6915 Bokman7757 wrote: > > << C'mon, never seen a tiger on a chain? > Or a vicious gaurd dog? > Why assume it's a puppy or camel? > >> > > Dogs and tigers tend not to be used as beasts of burden- which is how that > creature was "outfitted". Ever had a camel or llama turn on you? (Or worse yet, a horse!) ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 May 2000 05:14:16 GMT References: <3924C1C9.6AE9@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000519011416.02744.00000125@ng-fv1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6849 << Ever had a camel or llama turn on you? (Or worse yet, a horse!) >> That's why you don't approach 'em from behind. ###### Message-ID: <3924E660.B95B7608@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3923EF2A.670E@wizvax.net> <8g10id$cj6$1@hiram.io.com> <39249184.7C53@le.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:59:45 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.218.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 958716431 207.71.218.216 (Thu, 18 May 2000 23:07:11 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:07:11 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:07:11 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6923 A.F. Simpson wrote: > > _Actually_, they were shipping the chemical up to the ships and dumping > it straight into space. The 'chemical plants' they were using were > being used to pump water directly up to the ships. I tihnk the reason > was that the water on thier planet was too polluted. God only knows > what they'd polluted it with that shipping water half-way across the > galaxy was cheaper than just cleaning the place up. God knows how stupid the aliens were that they actually left their own star system to get water. This is indeed a incredibly stupid concept. I liked the "they were actually Earth's dinosaurs come home" idea better. > They were also herding up people to be used as soldiers in The Leader's > wars and as food. This is a mite more plausible because you can't just > create sentient servants out of thin air. Presumably they were planning It's called pregnancy. And it would be cheaper then hauling sentients from another star system. ;') -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### Message-ID: <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:22:36 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.218.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 958717800 207.71.218.216 (Thu, 18 May 2000 23:30:00 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:30:00 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:30:00 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6933 M.S. Caldwell wrote: > > Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth has than aliens > > would want... > > Well I cant remember the novel but one book I read suggested water. We > have lots of it in a readily collectable state with no need for mining. > Its useful as reaction mass. Its useful as a coolant. Its useful in > building carbon based life forms. Water. Invading for one of the most common compounds in the universe. Invading for something that is literally everywhere. This goes beyond the "aliens are morons" idea, into the realm of "the writers are morons". No, let me state it properly- this is at the "The writers are actually pithed gibbons who were strapped in front of a word processor" level of idiocy. A "go home sonny, and read a third- grade astronomy text" level of ignorance. A "keep them away from writing implements from now on" situation. In other words, fairly standard Hollywood fare, and an above average episode of Star Trek. And of course a background element in Battletech. -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 19 May 2000 08:41:47 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 36 Message-ID: <8g2uob$anj$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924C16B.1849@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.74 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6884 Brett Evill writes: >M.S. Caldwell wrote: >> In article <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net>, >> arbane@soho.ios.com (Arbane the Terrible) writes: >> >> > Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth has than aliens >> > would want... >> >> Well I cant remember the novel but one book I read suggested water. We >> have lots of it in a readily collectable state with no need for mining. > The rings of Saturn have more, in a more collectible state, with > less need for mining, no need for containers, and needing far > less energy to get it out of its gravitationaly well. The rings of Saturn have more water, but it is NOT in a "more collectible state"; it is in a considerably less collected state, being as it is scattered throughout a fairly sparse orbital ring, instead of lying in one big puddle. =) The statement that there is "no need for containers" only applies if one presumes the ice is never being subjected to heat (by bringing it to a planet closer to a sun, for example) or to stress (such as acceleration -- you can't just strap a rocket engine to a big ice cube and expect it not to crumble when you crank up the G's). The energy savings involved in getting the water out of the gravity well is a good point, though. But it all depends on what the aliens want to DO with the water. If they are (for example) a water-dwelling race, and simply want lots of water for habitation, they don't need to actually remove the water from Earth; they just need to move here. :) -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 19 May 2000 08:48:00 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8g2v40$vf4$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3923EF2A.670E@wizvax.net> <8g10id$cj6$1@hiram.io.com> <39249184.7C53@le.ac.uk> <3924E660.B95B7608@silcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.74 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6868 Eric Tolle writes: >A.F. Simpson wrote: >> >> _Actually_, they were shipping the chemical up to the ships and dumping >> it straight into space. The 'chemical plants' they were using were >> being used to pump water directly up to the ships. I tihnk the reason >> was that the water on thier planet was too polluted. God only knows >> what they'd polluted it with that shipping water half-way across the >> galaxy was cheaper than just cleaning the place up. >God knows how stupid the aliens were that they actually left their >own star system to get water. This is indeed a incredibly stupid >concept. I liked the "they were actually Earth's dinosaurs come >home" idea better. > >> They were also herding up people to be used as soldiers in The Leader's >> wars and as food. This is a mite more plausible because you can't just >> create sentient servants out of thin air. Presumably they were planning > It's called pregnancy. And it would be cheaper then hauling > sentients from another star system. ;') Pregnancy is cheaper, but you don't get to call a "time out" in the war while you wait 20 years for a replacement for that soldier you just lost. ;) You can only sustain a certain casualty rate before your poulation begins to decrease over time. Bringing in foreigners to fight for you may be more expensive, but it enables your own nation (or species) to continue to grow. -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 19 May 2000 08:51:24 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.74 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6875 Eric Tolle writes: >M.S. Caldwell wrote: >> > Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth has than aliens >> > would want... >> >> Well I cant remember the novel but one book I read suggested water. We >> have lots of it in a readily collectable state with no need for mining. >> Its useful as reaction mass. Its useful as a coolant. Its useful in >> building carbon based life forms. >Water. Invading for one of the most common compounds in the >universe. Invading for something that is literally everywhere. >This goes beyond the "aliens are morons" idea, into the realm of >"the writers are morons". Think of it as "invading for water, plus local manpower". Water is plentiful, but water right next to people who are able to run the purification plants isn't. -- Dan ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:23:58 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 46 Message-ID: <3925406E.F4AF2AB4@myriad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 May 2000 15:16:12 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!korova.insync.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6931 Arbane the Terrible wrote: > > This may fall under the 'aliens-are-morons' category, but how about an > interplanetary version of the Opium Wars? The aliens have us > outgunned, but they don't want to take over or exterminate us, just to > sell us dangerous crap. > > Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth has than aliens > would want... > I've seen a few stories on that sort of idea. Some of the cuter ones... 1) They wanted our nuclear waste. Lord only knows what they did with it, but the real problem was that after they took it all, they insisted that we make _more_. Lots more. 2) They wanted our courage. The incredibly advanced aliens, you see, evolved from placid herbivores. They were being ruthlessly subjugated by a dumber, slower, less advanced and weaker alien race... but whenever they tried to tell the less advanced ruler-race that they didn't _want_ to obey orders anymore, the rulers would _hurt_ them! They'd actually get _violent_! They really needed an ally species that could _think_ about hurting others or being hurt and not pass out on the spot. :-) 3) They wanted to turn the planet into a breeding ground for highly illegal super-killer aliens for the lucrative underground death-battle market. Of course the galactic council considered Earth a protected zone, so they had to act subtly... 4) They considered the Earth to be a primitive cesspool and thought no one back home would mind if they landed and shot a few locals for fun. 5) They considered the Earth to be a protected hunting preserve... They were doubtless a bit annoyed when the advanced humans of the time started fleeing into the past to escape the hunters. 6) They wanted our property values. No, really; you see land on habitable planets is _very_ expensive, but a lower-middle class alien with a few techno toys to trade could move to Earth and live like a king while paying less than he would for a tiny suite in an orbital habitat back home. Of course, once lots of aliens started to show up, the Earth got 'trendy' and the locals started to be displaced... Kiz ###### From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:39:08 -0400 Organization: Prometheus Corp. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <392543FC.7BB1@erols.com> References: <3924C1C9.6AE9@erols.com> <20000519011416.02744.00000125@ng-fv1.aol.com> Reply-To: richberg@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: Y9ep5RLMSiT2DeJ9q9ya+4letWVJ7eZ4BdWUOhNEApk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 May 2000 13:42:04 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6913 Bokman7757 wrote: > > << Ever had a camel or llama turn on you? > > (Or worse yet, a horse!) > >> > > That's why you don't approach 'em from behind. Or the front. A horse's bite can break your wrist. (They've been know to rear and trample also...) And a cameloid doesn't care what end you're on if it doesn't want to be bothered. Moral: being a scientist, even an observant, concientious one, is no excuse for not using proper caution around a strange animal of ANY breed. ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 May 2000 14:45:54 GMT References: <392543FC.7BB1@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000519104554.27887.00000188@ng-fw1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6853 <> It's not like he ran up to the thing and went "Booga booga booga!" I thought his approach took long enough for him to see whether the beast was alarmed by his presence. ###### From: Rick Pikul Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Message-ID: References: <8fqi8h$dj7$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <20000516164552.19280.00002588@ng-fv1.aol.com> <8fsh4h$uv3$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8g0bun$euq$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.20 Lines: 68 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.197.130 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 958754626 206.172.197.130 (Fri, 19 May 2000 12:43:46 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:43:46 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com X-Sender: bMNoLjA2H/qXc Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:43:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6883 In article <8g0bun$euq$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com says... > Rick Pikul writes: > > dbongard@netcom.com says... > > >>> He knew what they were, he just had to find the coverstone > >>> to decide on the order. > >> > >> Yes, and he wasn't able to do that until one of the natives > >> explained how to do it. Which part of that sentence are > >> you too stupid to understand? > > > The only pieces of help he had from a local in getting the > >Stargate open was that she showed him where the stone was, (saving them > >searching time), and that she knew what the local glyph was, (which would > >have been a lot of work to figure out due to the damage to the stone). > > Mind telling me which part of "he wasn't able to find the > coverstone and decide on the order until one of the natives > explained how to do it" that contradicts? The fact that the stone existed and was within walking distance, the help just got him the stone faster. And the natives knew even less about the gate than the team did, after all: The team knew it existed and how to operate it, (if not what number to dial). > >> If it hadn't been inhabited both Spader's character and > >> all the soldiers would have starved to death in the desert, > >> unable to return to Earth. > > > They wouldn't have starved, they could still be sent supplies > > and equipment. > > Why? They were supposed to be able to return right away > without any problem -- that's the story Spader's character > decided to peddle, anyway. The military's attitude towards > the Stargate was that it represented a threat -- hence the > nuclear weapon. Let's see: : "They've been gone too long, attempt to re-open the gate. And prepare a probe to send through." Gate opens, meaning the nuke hasn't been used, and the probe goes through. Troops on other side make a sign: The coverstone is missing We're stuck > On a side note, an additional bit of stupidity on the part > of the scientist character was his behavior towards the > alien animals -- "ooh look, a strange lifeform! I'll go > over and dick around with it!" 1) He's a linguist, not a zoologist, why should he know how to deal with animals? 2) It was obviously domesticated, Daniel even made note of this fact. -- Phoenix ###### X-Originating-Host: 206.17.88.100 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 16 From: Ham Salad Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <03c37356.8ba10cd9@usw-ex0104-026.remarq.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> Bytes: 510 X-Wren-Trace: ePDV/fzlouijuNvr9Lzw/cLr7+H49bnqu//w/rm2ueaxp+e/puirr6yh Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:16:15 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.26 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon4 958763853 10.0.2.26 (Fri, 19 May 2000 12:17:33 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:17:33 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon4.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6879 In article <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net>, arbane@soho.ios.com (Arbane the Terrible) wrote: >Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth has than aliens >would want... To convert all Earthlings to their silly-ass "religion"? Good thing human weapons are made to stay fresh and crisp for a thousand years... Ham Salad using The Farce * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 19 May 2000 23:22:21 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 38 Message-ID: <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 958771341 1086 10.0.3.2 (19 May 2000 21:22:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 May 2000 21:22:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6953 dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) writes: > Eric Tolle writes: > >M.S. Caldwell wrote: > > >> > Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth has than aliens > >> > would want... > >> > >> Well I cant remember the novel but one book I read suggested water. We > >> have lots of it in a readily collectable state with no need for mining. > >> Its useful as reaction mass. Its useful as a coolant. Its useful in > >> building carbon based life forms. > > >Water. Invading for one of the most common compounds in the > >universe. Invading for something that is literally everywhere. > >This goes beyond the "aliens are morons" idea, into the realm of > >"the writers are morons". > > Think of it as "invading for water, plus local manpower". Water > is plentiful, but water right next to people who are able to > run the purification plants isn't. Duh. Any alien capable of space travel does definitely not aim for employing (or enslaving) a bunch of possibly hostile natives to run a critical water purification plant. They definitely have automated systems for that. What do you think they use to control their space ship? And they also have an interest in a planet _without_ any dangerous natives. A icy comet would do a lot better. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: "Moglwi" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924C16B.1849@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:28:55 +0100 Lines: 41 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <3925e5ba_2@news2.vip.uk.com> X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@vip.uk.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.176.194.174 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.250.101.2 X-Trace: 20 May 2000 02:15:48 GMT, 10.250.101.2 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@vip.uk.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!iclnet!news1.vip.uk.com!10.250.101.2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:6965 Brett Evill wrote in message <3924C16B.1849@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au>... >M.S. Caldwell wrote: >> >> In article <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net>, >> arbane@soho.ios.com (Arbane the Terrible) writes: >> >> > Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth has than aliens >> > would want... >> >> Well I cant remember the novel but one book I read suggested water. We >> have lots of it in a readily collectable state with no need for mining. > >The rings of Saturn have more, in a more collectible state, with less >need for mining, no need for containers, and needing far less energy to >get it out of its gravitationaly well. The Oort cloud has even more >water, even cheaper in energy, but it might be a bit too sparse. > >Regards, > > >Brett Evill I read a book of short stories where earth sells ad space on Jupiter for pan galactic tourist trips then stiffs anther alien company for Saturn because it has the rings and is much nicer. -- "No Mr Bond I expect you to Die" Goldfinger moglwi@tinyonline.co.uk ###### Message-ID: <3925EEDF.5D6A@wizvax.net> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:48:15 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924C16B.1849@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> <3925e5ba_2@news2.vip.uk.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-71.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-71.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 19 May 2000 21:52:08 -0400, cm-24-29-52-71.nycap.rr.com Lines: 15 XPident: wilson X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-71.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7028 Moglwi wrote: > >Brett Evill > I read a book of short stories where earth sells ad space on > Jupiter for pan galactic tourist trips then stiffs anther > alien company for Saturn because it has the rings and is > much nicer. "Buy Jupiter", by Isaac Asimov -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 22 May 2000 17:33:59 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 77 Message-ID: <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.70 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7144 Neil Franklin writes: >dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) writes: >> Eric Tolle writes: >>>M.S. Caldwell wrote: >>>>> Which brings up the obvious question of what Earth has than aliens >>>>> would want... >>>> Well I cant remember the novel but one book I read suggested water. We >>>> have lots of it in a readily collectable state with no need for mining. >>>> Its useful as reaction mass. Its useful as a coolant. Its useful in >>>> building carbon based life forms. >>> Water. Invading for one of the most common compounds in the >>> universe. Invading for something that is literally everywhere. >>> This goes beyond the "aliens are morons" idea, into the realm of >>> "the writers are morons". >> Think of it as "invading for water, plus local manpower". Water >> is plentiful, but water right next to people who are able to >> run the purification plants isn't. > Duh. > hAny alien capable of space travel does definitely not aim for employing > (or enslaving) a bunch of possibly hostile natives to run a critical > water purification plant. First of all, nowhere in the above posts is it stated that the water purification plant is "critical", ergo your point is irrelevant. Second, ALL slaves are hostile. There isn't a slave race in human history that wouldn't have happily slaughtered its "masters", given the chance. Aliens with decent space travel capabilities will, pretty much by definition, possess the ability to wipe out the entire human race anytime they feel like it. What this means is that, hostile or not, humans would do they job they were told to do. We aren't suicidal. > They definitely have automated systems for that. Really. Which alien race are you talking about? What planet do they live on? Oh, I get it. You're talking out of your ass -- assuming that every single race capable of space travel (a) has automation technology that is cheaper than human slave labor and (b) is willing to use it. > What do you think they use to control their space ship? They _could_ use anything from clockwork to computers to bioengineered brains. None of that, however, in any way implies that building and maintaining automated water purification plants is going to be cheaper than simply showing up in orbit and saying "start purifying water and shipping it into orbit, or else." > And they also have an interest in a planet _without_ > any dangerous natives. What's dangerous about humans? If the aliens have at least human-level technology the simple fact that they are space-based and we aren't means they could pretty much glass the planet before we could take them out. > A icy comet would do a lot better. Icy comets contain a trivial amount of water compared to earth, have to be dealt with directly by the aliens instead of via servants, and require a great deal more effort to get to (being as they are scattered to hell and gone throughout the solar system and Oort cloud). -- Dan ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 22 May 2000 22:20:23 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 116 Message-ID: <6uwvkm2v7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 959026823 678 10.0.3.2 (22 May 2000 20:20:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 2000 20:20:23 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7155 dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) writes: > Neil Franklin writes: > >dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) writes: > > >> Think of it as "invading for water, plus local manpower". Water > >> is plentiful, but water right next to people who are able to > >> run the purification plants isn't. > > > hAny alien capable of space travel does definitely not aim for employing > > (or enslaving) a bunch of possibly hostile natives to run a critical > > water purification plant. > > First of all, nowhere in the above posts is it stated that the > water purification plant is "critical", ergo your point is > irrelevant. It is critical enough to them to warant an space expedition to get it (else they would not be invading). That make it critical. This is not just El Geekos hobby project. > Second, ALL slaves are hostile. There isn't a slave race in human > history that wouldn't have happily slaughtered its "masters", Just what I said. Dangerous. All. To be expected by the aliens in their planning. > this means is that, hostile or not, humans would do they job > they were told to do. Have you ever seen a case of 100% of all humans doing what they are told? You can bet your life on some attempt to sabotage the aliens. Any alien with enough brain to make an interstellar space ship will know to stay away from depending their mission on something as hostile as slaves. > > They definitely have automated systems for that. > > Really. Which alien race are you talking about? What planet > do they live on? About whatever race managed to get an interstellar space ship to work good enough to ge there. Not exactly low tech stuff. > Oh, I get it. You're talking out of your ass -- Wow. What an demonstration of linguistic capabilities. Impressive. [not] > that every single race capable of space travel (a) has > automation technology that is cheaper than human slave labor > and (b) is willing to use it. Mechanics are easier and more reliable than slaves, in any technologically sufficiently advanced society. We are talking here about space ship based aliens, not "stargate" tunneling based ones. > > What do you think they use to control their space ship? > > They _could_ use anything from clockwork to computers to > bioengineered brains. None of that, however, in any way > implies that building and maintaining automated water > purification plants is going to be cheaper Try _reliability_ as an argument. That is far more important than price, particularly in an space mission. Go ask NASA. The world contains a lot more than money, even if some humans keep forgetting that due to an obsession with the stuff. > > And they also have an interest in a planet _without_ > > any dangerous natives. > > What's dangerous about humans? If the aliens have > at least human-level technology the simple fact that > they are space-based and we aren't means they could > pretty much glass the planet before we could take > them out. And with them the precious water reserves they are so interested in. The perennial rulers problem: you can't live without the subjects, you can't live with them. Sufficiently intelligent life forms [1] avoid getting in such a bind, as soon as technology allows them to. [1] some humans don't seem to be that far yet. > > A icy comet would do a lot better. > > Icy comets contain a trivial amount of water compared > to earth, They make that up with numbers. > have to be dealt with directly by the aliens > instead of via servants, and require a great deal more > effort to get to (being as they are scattered to > hell and gone throughout the solar system and Oort cloud). Nothing a decent water collector space ship could not do. A lot easier than being on constant guard against rebellious natives. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:07:11 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 94 Message-ID: <3929855F.1DEE8E0@myriad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uwvkm2v7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 2000 20:59:24 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!howland.erols.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!news-feeds.jump.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7159 Neil Franklin wrote: > > dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) writes: > > It is critical enough to them to warant an space expedition to get it > (else they would not be invading). That make it critical. This is not > just El Geekos hobby project. > > > Second, ALL slaves are hostile. There isn't a slave race in human > > history that wouldn't have happily slaughtered its "masters", > > Just what I said. Dangerous. All. To be expected by the aliens in > their planning. > > > this means is that, hostile or not, humans would do they job > > they were told to do. > > Have you ever seen a case of 100% of all humans doing what they are > told? You can bet your life on some attempt to sabotage the aliens. > Any alien with enough brain to make an interstellar space ship will > know to stay away from depending their mission on something as > hostile as slaves. > Slavery is NOT generally used because it's efficient or reliable. It's used because it's cheap. Let's say you come to our solar system because your sensors detected lots of water here and you can tow it back home and sell it for a profit (probably pretty darn unlikely, I suppose, but we need _some_ motivation for them). You could send 10 water-mining ships with 10 crews and have them perform the somewhat dangerous task of matching course with ice asteroids, extract the pure water, and then have it shipped home. You can make a reasonable living this way. OR, you could send one ship and have it force the locals to shunt similarly sized chunks of ice into orbit or face extinction. True, it's horribly inefficient. Simply enormous amounts of energy have to be used just to get that water purified and moved into orbit. But the great thing about it is that it's the _locals_ who pay that cost. They're the ones who have to use all their fossil fuels up lifting all that ice into orbit. They're the ones who die if something goes wrong with the devices being used. You sit in orbit, catch up on your reading, make occasionally demonstrations of your superiority to keep 'em in line, and otherwise twiddle your thumbs while raking in the dough. Especially if you consider how much pay, overtime, and insurance costs would be involved in using licensed space-miners to harvest the ice-asteroids. You don't pay the locals _anything_... if anything goes wrong, no Galactic Citizens got hurt, so no legal hassles. And afterwards, you just pack up and leave. If you're worried about possible crimimal prosecution (should anyone back home find out about it), you could just tow a likely-looking meteor into a line with their planet and wipe out all signs of life. > > Mechanics are easier and more reliable than slaves, in any technologically > sufficiently advanced society. We are talking here about space ship > based aliens, not "stargate" tunneling based ones. Definitely. The only reasonable rationales for using slave labor would be cultural ("We like doing it") or economic ("It's cheap and only the slaves get hurt"). > > > A icy comet would do a lot better. > > > > Icy comets contain a trivial amount of water compared > > to earth, > > They make that up with numbers. And it would probably work fine, if you had ice-comet mining down to a science. But if ice-mining ships were particularly expensive (space is not very tolerant of goof-ups) and/or fragile, doing so might be too expensive to be practical. Kiz > > > have to be dealt with directly by the aliens > > instead of via servants, and require a great deal more > > effort to get to (being as they are scattered to > > hell and gone throughout the solar system and Oort cloud). > > Nothing a decent water collector space ship could not do. A lot > easier than being on constant guard against rebellious natives. > > -- > Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ > Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic > Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - > or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 22 May 2000 23:41:30 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 204 Message-ID: <8gcgja$ngg$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.6a Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7218 Neil Franklin writes: >dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) writes: >> Neil Franklin writes: >>> dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) writes: >>>> Think of it as "invading for water, plus local manpower". Water >>>> is plentiful, but water right next to people who are able to >>>> run the purification plants isn't. >>> hAny alien capable of space travel does definitely not aim for employing >>> (or enslaving) a bunch of possibly hostile natives to run a critical >>> water purification plant. >> First of all, nowhere in the above posts is it stated that the >> water purification plant is "critical", ergo your point is >> irrelevant. > It is critical enough to them to warant an space expedition > to get it (else they would not be invading). So? Perhaps the race is functionally unaging and therefore perfectly willing to spend decades or centuries travelling between systems to get something they want. Interstellar travel is relatively trivial if you're in no hurry to get to the destination and have good recycling and reclamation technology. > That make it critical. That only "make it critical" if interstellar travel is a HUGE problem for the alien race in question, which is not necessarily the case. > This is not just El Geekos hobby project. So every activity in the universe is, to you, either "critical" or "El Geekos hobby project". Fascinating... but wrong. >> Second, ALL slaves are hostile. There isn't a slave race in human >> history that wouldn't have happily slaughtered its "masters", >Just what I said. Dangerous. Wrong. The fact that a something wants to kill you doesn't make that thing dangerous. It needs to be ABLE to kill you. > All. To be expected by the aliens in their planning. Right. Simple rule: "if you kill any aliens, we kill all of you and go harvest comets instead. We'd rather you do the work for us, as it is cheaper." >> this means is that, hostile or not, humans would do the job >> they were told to do. > Have you ever seen a case of 100% of all humans doing what > they are told? 100% of humans don't have to do as they are told; just the ones who control the armies and the weapons. Who cares if some fanatical militia group in Wisconsin refuses to do what "them dern alien sonsabitches" want? They're on Earth; they can't do shit. All the aliens would really need to do is convince the leaders of the major nations that the planet _will_ get nuked if they don't do as they are told. > You can bet your life on some attempt to sabotage the aliens. Bullshit. You've obviously watched "Independence Day" and "Battlefield Earth" too many times. >>> They definitely have automated systems for that. >> Really. Which alien race are you talking about? What planet >> do they live on? > About whatever race managed to get an interstellar space ship to > work good enough to ge there. Not exactly low tech stuff. Ie, you're spouting bullshit. Interstellar space ships don't actually require anything more, so far as automation and computers are concerned, than 1970s technology. >> Oh, I get it. You're talking out of your ass -- > Wow. What an demonstration of linguistic capabilities. Your argument is shit. I explained why. Life is not a movie, fanboy. >> that every single race capable of space travel (a) has >> automation technology that is cheaper than human slave labor >> and (b) is willing to use it. > Mechanics are easier and more reliable than slaves, BZZZT! Wrong. > in any technologically sufficiently advanced society. The population of Earth is capable of producing as much as 30 trillion man-hours of labor per year. In order to duplicate this effort the aliens must either: (a): Nudge Ceres out of its orbit and show the worlds' governments that they can smack it into earth anytime they want to -- bingo, billions of free slaves or (b): Build enough automata to perform 30 trillion man-hours of labor per year. The latter is only "cheaper" if the aliens can build some sort of Von Neumann machine -- this is NOT necessarily the case. > We are talking here about space ship based aliens, not > "stargate" tunneling based ones. You're the one presuming the aliens have access to fantasy technology; not me. >>> And they also have an interest in a planet _without_ >>> any dangerous natives. >> What's dangerous about humans? If the aliens have >> at least human-level technology the simple fact that >> they are space-based and we aren't means they could >> pretty much glass the planet before we could take >> them out. > And with them the precious water reserves they are so interested in. Would you care to describe how much crack you had to smoke before killing everyone on earth automatically required the _destruction_ of the Earth's entire water supply? Furthermore you seem to have forgotten that the solar system has other water resources than Earth; if humans turn out to be suicidal instead of rational, the aliens can simply kill them and go harvest the (less practical) Oort cloud, or the rings of Saturn. > The perennial rulers problem: you can't live without > the subjects, you can't live with them. You can live without them. There are countless incidents in history of rulers who shamelessly exploited the citizenry, then simply took their ill-gotten gains to a nicer country where they could live in luxury. That is the proper parallel here. >>> A icy comet would do a lot better. >> Icy comets contain a trivial amount of water compared >> to earth, > They make that up with numbers. Which is easier: picking up water from one location, or picking up water from 100,000 separate locations scattered across 50+ billion light seconds of space? Are you really delusional enough to think that keeping a handful of human governments in line is harder than mining the Oort cloud? >> have to be dealt with directly by the aliens >> instead of via servants, and require a great deal more >> effort to get to (being as they are scattered to >> hell and gone throughout the solar system and Oort >> cloud). > Nothing a decent water collector space ship could not do Since you haven't got the foggiest idea of what the requirements and/or capabilities of such a ship would be, you're basically just spouting bullshit again. > A lot easier than being on constant guard against > rebellious natives. Life is not "ID4", fanboy. The aliens don't need to be afraid of drunken cropdusters. They only need to be afraid of organizations with transorbital launch capabilities; there are around half a dozen such organizations in the world and the launch facilities are easily identifiable from orbit. The process is simple: (1): Aliens drop rocks on our launch sites. (2): Aliens Make their demands, whereupon either (3a): The powerful nations of the world agree, and whip the tiny minority of suicidal humans into line, or (3b): The human race is annihilated, and the aliens begin the tedious task of mining comets. -- Dan ###### From: garden@netcom.com (Carl Horn) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 23 May 2000 01:55:19 GMT Organization: NETCOM / MindSpring Enterprises, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8gcoe7$nb5$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8ft3pt$9bs28@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <3922B05B.7AAC3232@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.77 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!garden Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7211 I'm really not doing a very good example of keeping on topic, am I. But I would suggest that whomever suggests that non-economic reasons for aliens invading Earth are more likely than them wanting to strip our resources, is (as much as this is all conjecture) on the right track. In FOOTFALL, the aliens were political refugees; they had been kicked out of their own society. In WORLDWAR, the aliens genuinely believe their culture is superior and that they have a manifest destiny to extend it. I don't think that one abandons what might be considered non-rational patterns of culture just because one's technology increases. It is true that we have only our own experience to draw from, but take the fact the President of the United States, who commands Stealth fighters, is to this day sworn in on a book written by people who commanded nothing more than spears and slings. How much he (or any other Westerner) actually believes of Judeo-Christian teachings is of course highly debatable; the point is that they are not dismissed* merely because they were the product of a technology as primitive to us as a starfaring race might be to Earth, A.D. 2000. --Carl "Shun green if you can, etc..." Horn *Except in THE ONION, naturally! ###### From: Walt Smith Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:45:33 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8ge5i8$ht2$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3924C1C9.6AE9@erols.com> <20000519011416.02744.00000125@ng-fv1.aol.com> <392543FC.7BB1@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 147.205.85.124 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue May 23 14:45:33 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x65.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 147.205.85.124 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDfirelock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7172 In article <392543FC.7BB1@erols.com>, richberg@erols.com wrote: > Moral: being a scientist, even an observant, concientious one, is no > excuse for not using proper caution around a strange animal of ANY > breed. In his defense, it should be remembered that none of his scientific training involved methods for dealing with live animals. He wasn't a zoologist, and this may have been the first large animal he'd ever been close to that wasn't under the control of another human. He was properly in character as well, showing more enthusiasm than common sense. Walt Smith -- Firelock on DALNet Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 24 May 2000 00:01:10 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 203 Message-ID: <6uya51rknt.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl <8gcgja$ngg$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 959119270 963 10.0.3.2 (23 May 2000 22:01:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 May 2000 22:01:10 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7231 dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) writes: > Neil Franklin writes: > >dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) writes: > > >> First of all, nowhere in the above posts is it stated that the > >> water purification plant is "critical", ergo your point is > >> irrelevant. > > > It is critical enough to them to warant an space expedition > > to get it (else they would not be invading). > > So? Perhaps the race is functionally unaging and therefore > perfectly willing to spend decades or centuries travelling > between systems to get something they want. They still like any other species use up resources while in transit. The water is going have to be at least valuable enough to justify that. > travel is relatively trivial if you're in no hurry to get > to the destination and have good recycling and reclamation > technology. There exists no 100% effective recycling. Time will take its toll, need replacements, costs. > >> this means is that, hostile or not, humans would do the job > >> they were told to do. > > > Have you ever seen a case of 100% of all humans doing what > > they are told? > > 100% of humans don't have to do as they are told; just the > ones who control the armies and the weapons. Who cares if > some fanatical militia group in Wisconsin refuses to do > what "them dern alien sonsabitches" want? Things such as traitors, infiltration, sabotage don't seem to exist in your world? The aliens are going to have to take in the water. Just wait for the hidden bomb. > they can't do shit. All the aliens would really need to > do is convince the leaders of the major nations that the > planet _will_ get nuked if they don't do as they are told. That has not stopped people before. The "leaders of the major nations" don't have anything near absolute control, despite what conspiratory freaks think. > > You can bet your life on some attempt to sabotage the aliens. > > Bullshit. You've obviously watched "Independence Day" and > "Battlefield Earth" too many times. I have watched neither. I have not been in a cinema for around 15 years, and watch TV about 5 hours/year. Your "obvious"-ity detector seems to be missfiring badly. > >>> They definitely have automated systems for that. > > >> Really. Which alien race are you talking about? What planet > >> do they live on? > > > About whatever race managed to get an interstellar space ship to > > work good enough to ge there. Not exactly low tech stuff. > > Ie, you're spouting bullshit. Interstellar space ships don't > actually require anything more, so far as automation and > computers are concerned, than 1970s technology. a) Neither do water purification plants. b) computers were common in 1970s process automation systems. even microprocessors are 1970s technology, minicomputers 1960s > >> Oh, I get it. You're talking out of your ass -- > > > Wow. What an demonstration of linguistic capabilities. > > Your argument is shit. I explained why. Life is not a movie, fanboy. Your explanation failled to stand. > > in any technologically sufficiently advanced society. > > (b): Build enough automata to perform 30 trillion man-hours > of labor per year. Nope. They only need enough automata to pick up and purify the water. That does not require anything in that range of labor. > The latter is only "cheaper" if the aliens can build some > sort of Von Neumann machine -- this is NOT necessarily the > case. Try spaceflight without one. Even Appollo 11 had an computer on board the eagle (not just on earth). Control computers are simple technology. Nudging Ceres out of orbit and aiming it is not that easy without astronomical computational abilities (we are assuming that they do not have 10 years brain calculating time to spend for an attack, they after all need to be credible attackers to threaten the earth). > Furthermore you seem to have forgotten that the solar > system has other water resources than Earth; Nope. I an exactly arguing, that those water reserves are more interesting to the aliens than those on earth which come with pesky natives. You seem to have forgotten that. > can simply kill them and go harvest the (less practical) > Oort cloud, or the rings of Saturn. Which they will have done straight away. > > The perennial rulers problem: you can't live without > > the subjects, you can't live with them. > > You can live without them. There are countless incidents in > history of rulers who shamelessly exploited the citizenry, > then simply took their ill-gotten gains to a nicer > country where they could live in luxury. That is the > proper parallel here. There are also lots of examples of rulers who did not make it. That is the risk. Mining asteroids comes without that risk. > > They make that up with numbers. > > Which is easier: picking up water from one location, or > picking up water from 100,000 separate locations scattered > across 50+ billion light seconds of space? That is what the space ship is for. You are the one who is suggesting multi-lightyear travel to just fetch water. A few million lightseconds between each comet is then irrelevant. Of course the economics of water transport make the whole szenario for an attack laughable, earth or oort. I was just shooting at your "cheap human slave labor compensate the space flight cost" argumentation. > delusional enough to think that keeping a handful of > human governments in line is harder than mining the > Oort cloud? Mining is dead matter -> predictable, humans are unknown life forms -> unpredictable. And humans are more than governments. > > Nothing a decent water collector space ship could not do > > Since you haven't got the foggiest idea of what the > requirements and/or capabilities of such a ship would > be, you're basically just spouting bullshit again. Your "bullshit" detector seems to be as bad as your "obvious" detector. I have an degree in mechanical construction and one in electrival engineering. And a long interest in any technology. What are your credentials, apart from a lack of history knowledge? > > A lot easier than being on constant guard against > > rebellious natives. > > Life is not "ID4", fanboy. Duh, for the 3rd time of "fanboy". another detector of yours that failled to hit. Thanks for the non intentional humour. > afraid of organizations with transorbital launch > capabilities; there are around half a dozen such And individuals capable of smuggling an explosive device, infiltration, ... > organizations in the world and the launch facilities are > easily identifiable from orbit. Including the ones launching the water (try shooting that down, a bit self defeating isn't it). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 24 May 2000 00:27:44 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 89 Message-ID: <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uwvkm2v7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3929855F.1DEE8E0@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 959120864 997 10.0.3.2 (23 May 2000 22:27:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 May 2000 22:27:44 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7232 "Frank T. Sronce" writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > > Second, ALL slaves are hostile. There isn't a slave race in human > > > history that wouldn't have happily slaughtered its "masters", > > > > Just what I said. Dangerous. All. To be expected by the aliens in > > their planning. > > > > > this means is that, hostile or not, humans would do they job > > > they were told to do. > > > > Have you ever seen a case of 100% of all humans doing what they are > > told? You can bet your life on some attempt to sabotage the aliens. > > Any alien with enough brain to make an interstellar space ship will > > know to stay away from depending their mission on something as > > hostile as slaves. > > Slavery is NOT generally used because it's efficient or reliable. It's > used because it's cheap. Which is why it went out of fashion when technology became cheap enough (and powerfull enough). Somewhere around 1850-1900. > your sensors detected lots of water here and you can tow it back home > and sell it for a profit (probably pretty darn unlikely, I suppose, Yep. The whole economics of this (sub-)thread is screwed. The Ice Pirates may be a fun film, but unlikely reality. > we need _some_ motivation for them). You could send 10 water-mining > ships with 10 crews and have them perform the somewhat dangerous task of > matching course with ice asteroids, extract the pure water, and then > have it shipped home. You can make a reasonable living this way. Yes. Just as the victorians sent sailing boats to the north to tow back ice-bergs to cut them up to have ice (for cooling, not for drinks) in the summer. Fridge technology put an end to that business. > OR, you could send one ship and have it force the locals to shunt > similarly sized chunks of ice into orbit or face extinction. True, it's > horribly inefficient. Assuming: a) locals exist b) locals have ice-into-orbit capable technology c) locals don't have superiour weapons technology b and c produce a damn small window of opportunity Add in risk of sabotage. This looks like a business plan I would definitely not finance. Now them comets... > being used. You sit in orbit, catch up on your reading, make > occasionally demonstrations of your superiority to keep 'em in line, and > otherwise twiddle your thumbs while raking in the dough. Until the sabotage comes, or the poisoned ice. > Especially if you consider how much pay, overtime, and insurance costs > would be involved in using licensed space-miners to harvest the > ice-asteroids. Assuming: a) space-miners are unionised or there are government regulation b) the same great government won't go after you for slavery > afterwards, you just pack up and leave. If you're worried about possible > crimimal prosecution (should anyone back home find out about it), you > could just tow a likely-looking meteor into a line with their planet and > wipe out all signs of life. Does that include wiping out all them recordings of the traces that allowed you to detect the planet in the first case? Who else recorded them? Intergalactical Greenpeace sleeping on the job? :-) -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### Message-ID: <392A430E.3CA95C3B@clear.net.nz> From: tussock X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3925406E.F4AF2AB4@myriad.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: a001-m001-u65.dune.clear.net.nz Organization: CLEAR Net New Zealand http://www.clear.net.nz - Complaints abuse@clear.net.nz Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 07:57:25 CDT X-Trace: sv2-dOGwAux1GyhuIMg1FcrtCI8kFEVgLiBaBbOljEcQ8kPvCCxhvC+1KzNUfgqmNI5wkJdja/rl1YuDyag!Zi82lQ4KtD2Gvd6evQLKZ5BC X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 20:36:30 +1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!news.clear.net.nz!a001-m001-u65.dune.clear.net.nz Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7238 "Frank T. Sronce" wrote: > I've seen a few stories on that sort of idea. Some of the cuter > ones... > > 2) They wanted our courage. The incredibly advanced aliens, you see, > evolved from placid herbivores. They were being ruthlessly subjugated by > a dumber, slower, less advanced and weaker alien race... but whenever > they tried to tell the less advanced ruler-race that they didn't _want_ > to obey orders anymore, the rulers would _hurt_ them! They'd actually > get _violent_! They really needed an ally species that could _think_ > about hurting others or being hurt and not pass out on the spot. :-) Cool, we can take out the ruler race in a bloody and senseless war, and keep these placid folks as our own. They'll probably give us all their tech to help, even if they don't want to. I'm sure they won't complain. 8] -- tussock Sarcasm is the lowest form of humor. 8] ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CS Lab, University of Toronto References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atlmindspring.n <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Date: 24 May 2000 02:25:50 GMT Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7280 In article <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >> OR, you could send one ship and have it force the locals to shunt >> similarly sized chunks of ice into orbit or face extinction. True, it's >> horribly inefficient. >Assuming: > >a) locals exist >b) locals have ice-into-orbit capable technology >c) locals don't have superiour weapons technology > b and c produce a damn small window of opportunity So it's not a strategy you want to apply galaxy-wide - the subject of the thread was, I believe, invasions of _Earth_. Earth is inhabited; its inhabitants have the technology to get things into orbit; and, as I belive everyone in the thread has agreed, it has no reasonable capacity at all to defend itself against a starfaring conqueror. >Add in risk of sabotage. Sabotage is not the aliens' problem. The governments of earth, after being convinced that lviing under the alien thumb is preferable to being wiped out, will protect the operation. And even if sabotage shuts down the operation, so what? You still have your ship and the comets are still there. You haven't lost anything - just wipe out the schmucks and go back to your mining plan. Of course, the idea of aliens coming to our solar system for water still seemd silly, but I'm becoming convinced that if they do, Earth is probably the best place to get it. ###### From: BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 24 May 2000 04:10:44 GMT Organization: Bureau of Transport Economics Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8gfko4$9bs114@cook.dotrs.gov.au> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uwvkm2v7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3929855F.1DEE8E0@myriad.net> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.120.132.197 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!cook.dotrs.gov.au!newsmaster Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7256 In article <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote... >> Slavery is NOT generally used because it's efficient or reliable. It's >> used because it's cheap. > >Which is why it went out of fashion when technology became cheap >enough (and powerfull enough). Somewhere around 1850-1900. Earlier than that. Slavery was outlawed in the British Empire in about 1818. The international slave trade was suppressed by Britain, France, and Spain in about 1824, if memory serves. And by the way, the inefficiency of slavery cannot entirely explain the efforts of the Royal Navy to stamp out the international trade, nor the risks, hardships, and costs borne by the abolitionists in the US up to 1865. People fought slavery at least in part out of decency, not to force their competitors to become more efficient. Regards, -- Brett Evill (The opinions expressed above are not those of the Bureau of Transport Economics, the Federal Department of Transport and Regional Services, or the Australian Commonwealth Government.) ###### From: Walt Smith Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 04:17:49 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 51 Message-ID: <8gfl54$jcn$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl <8gcgja$ngg$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uya51rknt.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 147.205.99.175 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed May 24 04:17:49 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x72.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 147.205.99.175 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDfirelock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7241 In article <6uya51rknt.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) writes: > > The latter is only "cheaper" if the aliens can build some > > sort of Von Neumann machine -- this is NOT necessarily the > > case. > > Try spaceflight without one. Even Appollo 11 had an computer on board > the eagle (not just on earth). Control computers are simple > technology. A Von Neumann machine is not a computer, it's a theoretical type of self-replicating machine. For example, I might drop a robot onto a likely-looking planet and leave. The robot prospects for raw materials, refines them, and uses them to build other robots, which each go out to build more robots. More and more robots are built, until I come back a decade later and the planet is covered with robots...each one ready to give up robot- building and do my bidding, whether it be terraforming or line- dancing. If I'm understanding the term correctly, each robot *isn't* a Von Neumann machine, any more than a gear is a clock or a train is a railway system - A Von Neumann machine is any particular *system* that uses self-replicating machines. > > Which is easier: picking up water from one location, or > > picking up water from 100,000 separate locations scattered > > across 50+ billion light seconds of space? > > That is what the space ship is for. You are the one who is suggesting > multi-lightyear travel to just fetch water. A few million lightseconds > between each comet is then irrelevant. It's common in science fiction to have interstellar flight that's impractical for intra-system travel. IMO, this scenario would *require* the aliens' interstellar drives to have this limitation. > Of course the economics of water transport make the whole szenario for > an attack laughable, earth or oort. Well, yeah, there is that... Walt Smith -- Firelock on DALNet Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "A.F. Simpson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:27:59 -0700 Organization: University of Leicester Lines: 25 Message-ID: <392C657F.4BBD@le.ac.uk> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3925406E.F4AF2AB4@myriad.net> <392A430E.3CA95C3B@clear.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc42.cmht.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: rook.le.ac.uk 959181823 47711 143.210.176.54 (24 May 2000 15:23:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@le.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 May 2000 15:23:43 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!leicester!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7282 > "Frank T. Sronce" wrote: > > 2) They wanted our courage. The incredibly advanced aliens, you see, > > evolved from placid herbivores. They were being ruthlessly subjugated by > > a dumber, slower, less advanced and weaker alien race... but whenever > > they tried to tell the less advanced ruler-race that they didn't _want_ > > to obey orders anymore, the rulers would _hurt_ them! They'd actually > > get _violent_! They really needed an ally species that could _think_ > > about hurting others or being hurt and not pass out on the spot. :-) Poor little buggers. Not only can't they think about violence but they obviously haven't heard of the phrase 'better the devil you know'. Placid alien 1: We are of one happy mind then? We will send a messge to Earth and ask for their help. Placid alien 2: Not to cause dissent honoured friends but...is there not a danger that...these humans...kind and honourable I'm sure but...it's just that the last 57 times...might they not...you know... Placid alien 1: Unanimous as ever, friends. love Anna ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 24 May 2000 22:40:06 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 57 Message-ID: <6ud7mb1y3d.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atlmindspring.n <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 959200806 724 10.0.3.2 (24 May 2000 20:40:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 May 2000 20:40:06 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7284 tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > >> OR, you could send one ship and have it force the locals to shunt > >> similarly sized chunks of ice into orbit or face extinction. True, it's > >> horribly inefficient. > >Assuming: > > > >a) locals exist > >b) locals have ice-into-orbit capable technology > >c) locals don't have superiour weapons technology > > b and c produce a damn small window of opportunity > > So it's not a strategy you want to apply galaxy-wide - the subject > of the thread was, I believe, invasions of _Earth_. But any hypothetical alien who intends to do this with earth, would first had to get the plan to do this with some planet and then settle on earth as actual target. Given the small window of opportunity vs. the time to travel to an victim planet (and simply detecting an usable planet and the time to then get the message home), this plan would ever get into the "go selecting usable planet" stage, and so never find earth. > >Add in risk of sabotage. > > Sabotage is not the aliens' problem. The governments of earth, after > being convinced that lviing under the alien thumb is preferable to being > wiped out, will protect the operation. You seem to have a great belief in the absolute power of governments in detecting and stopping anything they do not like. Real life tends to be a lot messier and less under control. > And even if sabotage shuts down > the operation, so what? You still have your ship and the comets are still > there. You haven't lost anything I was not thinking of sabotage to shut down the plants on earth, I was thinking of sabotage to get the aliens (explosives smuggled on board of the water/ice transporters, detonating after arival in the aliens ship). > Of course, the idea of aliens coming to our solar system for water still > seemd silly, Yes. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 24 May 2000 22:51:02 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 31 Message-ID: <6u4s7n1xl5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uwvkm2v7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3929855F.1DEE8E0@myriad.net> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gfko4$9bs114@cook.dotrs.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 959201466 724 10.0.3.2 (24 May 2000 20:51:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 May 2000 20:51:06 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7285 BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au (Brett Evill) writes: > In article <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote... > > >> Slavery is NOT generally used because it's efficient or reliable. It's > >> used because it's cheap. > > > >Which is why it went out of fashion when technology became cheap > >enough (and powerfull enough). Somewhere around 1850-1900. > > Earlier than that. Slavery was outlawed in the British Empire in about 1818. > The international slave trade was suppressed by Britain, France, and Spain in > about 1824, if memory serves. Legally perhaps, but in real life the U.S. still hat it until the civil war, 1860s IIRC. And they were surely not the last. > hardships, and costs borne by the abolitionists in the US up to 1865. People > fought slavery at least in part out of decency, not to force their competitors > to become more efficient. That also. But I think that even without the abolitionists it would have disappeared in the end. Too impractical in the face of better solutions. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 24 May 2000 22:51:30 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 58 Message-ID: <6u1z2r1xkd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl <8gcgja$ngg$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uya51rknt.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gfl54$jcn$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 959201490 724 10.0.3.2 (24 May 2000 20:51:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 May 2000 20:51:30 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7286 Walt Smith writes: > In article <6uya51rknt.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil Franklin wrote: > > dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) writes: > > > The latter is only "cheaper" if the aliens can build some > > > sort of Von Neumann machine -- this is NOT necessarily the > > > case. > > > > Try spaceflight without one. Even Appollo 11 had an computer on board > > the eagle (not just on earth). Control computers are simple > > technology. > > A Von Neumann machine is not a computer, it's a theoretical > type of self-replicating machine. Oops. I mixed up Von Neuman Machine and Turing Machine. > For example, I might drop a robot onto a likely-looking planet and > leave. The robot prospects for raw materials, refines them, and uses In that case I will have to change my answer to Bongard: There is absolutely no need for such an advanced technology to make asteriod mining cheaper than slavery. Anyone who can make any ship capable of inter-stellar spaceflight has the technology to both make automated purification plants (no need for slaves) or asteroid collectors (no earth involved). > > That is what the space ship is for. You are the one who is suggesting > > multi-lightyear travel to just fetch water. A few million lightseconds > > between each comet is then irrelevant. > > It's common in science fiction to have interstellar flight that's > impractical for intra-system travel. IMO, this scenario would > *require* the aliens' interstellar drives to have this limitation. Intra-system ship(s) as cargo of the interstellar one? Or mine their own Oort cloud equivalent. :-) > > Of course the economics of water transport make the whole szenario for > > an attack laughable, earth or oort. > > Well, yeah, there is that... Yes. :-) -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:13:08 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 47 Message-ID: <392C29C4.82251EB5@myriad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3925406E.F4AF2AB4@myriad.net> <392A430E.3CA95C3B@clear.net.nz> <392C657F.4BBD@le.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 May 2000 21:05:25 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.yosemite.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7288 "A.F. Simpson" wrote: > > > "Frank T. Sronce" wrote: > > > > 2) They wanted our courage. The incredibly advanced aliens, you see, > > > evolved from placid herbivores. They were being ruthlessly subjugated by > > > a dumber, slower, less advanced and weaker alien race... but whenever > > > they tried to tell the less advanced ruler-race that they didn't _want_ > > > to obey orders anymore, the rulers would _hurt_ them! They'd actually > > > get _violent_! They really needed an ally species that could _think_ > > > about hurting others or being hurt and not pass out on the spot. :-) > > Poor little buggers. Not only can't they think about violence but they > obviously haven't heard of the phrase 'better the devil you know'. > Well, basically, they did their calculations and personality profiles and figured that humans would be nicer overlords than the current ones. Hard to believe, isn't it? But then the current overlords _were_ pretty nasty. I suppose as soon as the humans got too corrupt and vicious to be bearable, they'd be looking for yet another 'violent' race to beat up the now weak and complacent humans and take their place, too. Y'know, you might be able to keep your species going for quite a long while that way... give it enough time and you can cycle back to the original overlords who have now regressed into barbarism and don't remember you anymore. :-) Kiz > Placid alien 1: We are of one happy mind then? We will send a messge > to Earth and ask for their help. > > Placid alien 2: Not to cause dissent honoured friends but...is there > not a danger that...these humans...kind and honourable I'm sure > but...it's just that the last 57 times...might they not...you > know... > > Placid alien 1: Unanimous as ever, friends. > > love > Anna ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:49:25 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 111 Message-ID: <392C3245.2E297B44@myriad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uwvkm2v7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3929855F.1DEE8E0@myriad.net> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 May 2000 21:41:40 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!korova.insync.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7287 Neil Franklin wrote: > > "Frank T. Sronce" writes: > > > Slavery is NOT generally used because it's efficient or reliable. It's > > used because it's cheap. > > Which is why it went out of fashion when technology became cheap > enough (and powerfull enough). Somewhere around 1850-1900. > Yup. Still goes on in some places, though, particularly 'backwards' areas where decent equipment of any sort is in short supply and unduly expensive. Of course, it's usually not 'true' slavery- it's the modern equivalent where you do 'pay' them, just not enough for them to do more than survive. :-) > > your sensors detected lots of water here and you can tow it back home > > and sell it for a profit (probably pretty darn unlikely, I suppose, > > Yep. The whole economics of this (sub-)thread is screwed. The Ice > Pirates may be a fun film, but unlikely reality. Definitely. I could see aliens showing up looking for a few things, but water and/or food seem pretty unlikely unless it's a desperation maneuver... eg- their FTL drive is flaky and they need to replenish their supplies for the 200+ years it'll take to fix it, so they coast into the nearest inhabited solar system looking for an easy source... > > > we need _some_ motivation for them). You could send 10 water-mining > > ships with 10 crews and have them perform the somewhat dangerous task of > > matching course with ice asteroids, extract the pure water, and then > > have it shipped home. You can make a reasonable living this way. > > Yes. Just as the victorians sent sailing boats to the north to tow > back ice-bergs to cut them up to have ice (for cooling, not for > drinks) in the summer. Fridge technology put an end to that business. > > > OR, you could send one ship and have it force the locals to shunt > > similarly sized chunks of ice into orbit or face extinction. True, it's > > horribly inefficient. > Assuming: > > a) locals exist > b) locals have ice-into-orbit capable technology > c) locals don't have superiour weapons technology > b and c produce a damn small window of opportunity > > Add in risk of sabotage. This looks like a business plan I would > definitely not finance. Now them comets... I dunno about sabotage- I mean, what sort of sabotage could we do that advanced aliens couldn't detect with ease? I'm kind of assuming that they'd have some sort of quality-control in place, so you'd need a bomb/poison that the orbital water-quality-checking robot couldn't detect. Seems pretty iffy... especially if you toast a few cities every time you find such a thing. The locals-who-have-better-tech-than-you-thought is a big danger, though. Especially if you have to give them some additional technology in order for them to even DO what you want them too... Definitely something _smart_ aliens would avoid. > > > being used. You sit in orbit, catch up on your reading, make > > occasionally demonstrations of your superiority to keep 'em in line, and > > otherwise twiddle your thumbs while raking in the dough. > > Until the sabotage comes, or the poisoned ice. What, you think they drink the stuff the moment it arrives in orbit? :-) Poisoning it would be darn iffy, since it would probably be decades before the poison would even get a chance to affect anyone. Of course, humans can be darn stupid, so someone would probably try anyway. :-) > > > Especially if you consider how much pay, overtime, and insurance costs > > would be involved in using licensed space-miners to harvest the > > ice-asteroids. > > Assuming: > > a) space-miners are unionised or there are government regulation > b) the same great government won't go after you for slavery > > > afterwards, you just pack up and leave. If you're worried about possible > > crimimal prosecution (should anyone back home find out about it), you > > could just tow a likely-looking meteor into a line with their planet and > > wipe out all signs of life. > > Does that include wiping out all them recordings of the traces that > allowed you to detect the planet in the first case? Who else recorded > them? Intergalactical Greenpeace sleeping on the job? :-) > Nope- but when they show up all they'll be able to tell is that there _used_ to be intelligent life here. Maybe they can even figure out the general type of ship that was used, by analyzing old TV transmissions, but I doubt they could find much that would hold up in an intergalactic court. :-) Kiz > -- > Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ > Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic > Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - > or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: jwalters@toad.net Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Message-ID: <392c7e78.905945@news.toad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atlmindspring.n <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 27 Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:19:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.114.31 X-Complaints-To: abuse@toad.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 959217266 209.150.114.31 (Wed, 24 May 2000 21:14:26 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:14:26 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7301 On 24 May 2000 02:25:50 GMT, tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) wrote: >In article <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, >Neil Franklin wrote: >>> OR, you could send one ship and have it force the locals to shunt >>> similarly sized chunks of ice into orbit or face extinction. True, it's >>> horribly inefficient. >>Assuming: >> >>a) locals exist >>b) locals have ice-into-orbit capable technology >>c) locals don't have superiour weapons technology >> b and c produce a damn small window of opportunity > >So it's not a strategy you want to apply galaxy-wide - the subject >of the thread was, I believe, invasions of _Earth_. Earth is inhabited; >its inhabitants have the technology to get things into orbit; and, as I >belive everyone in the thread has agreed, it has no reasonable capacity >at all to defend itself against a starfaring conqueror. You seem to be missing an important point here. Your scenario doesn't work unless the aliens KNOW that the Earth meets these criteria. The aliens have to put in the effort of finding the Earth, or a planet like it, before they can invade and enslave it. ###### From: BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 25 May 2000 01:41:16 GMT Organization: Bureau of Transport Economics Lines: 54 Message-ID: <8gi0bs$9bs125@cook.dotrs.gov.au> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uwvkm2v7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3929855F.1DEE8E0@myriad.net> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gfko4$9bs114@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <6u4s7n1xl5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.120.132.197 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!cook.dotrs.gov.au!newsmaster Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7321 In article <6u4s7n1xl5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote... > >BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au (Brett Evill) writes: > >> In article <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote... >> >> >> Slavery is NOT generally used because it's efficient or reliable. It' >s >> >> used because it's cheap. >> > >> >Which is why it went out of fashion when technology became cheap >> >enough (and powerfull enough). Somewhere around 1850-1900. >> >> Earlier than that. Slavery was outlawed in the British Empire in about 1818. >> The international slave trade was suppressed by Britain, France, and Spain in >> about 1824, if memory serves. > >Legally perhaps, but in real life the U.S. still hat it until the >civil war, 1860s IIRC. And they were surely not the last. Well, there was still slavery in the Third World (except in the bits the British ran: not quite the same as all the Empire). But none in the European countries or the better-run of their colonies. The US was one of the last advanced countries to abolish slavery. >> hardships, and costs borne by the abolitionists in the US up to 1865. People >> fought slavery at least in part out of decency, not to force their competitors > >> to become more efficient. > >That also. But I think that even without the abolitionists it would have >disappeared in the end. Too impractical in the face of better solutions. I agree. But there is a suggestion that slavery might have persisted for some time after it had become financially inefficient as a feature of social stratification. I.e. the Old South might have accepted a small cost to keep blacks in slavery and as a marker of the difference between the slave-owning aristocracy and the poor whites. I think we agree that the people who risked their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honour in the cause of abolitionism did so out of a belief that slavery is unjust, not out of a belief that it is impractical and uneconomic. Regards, -- Brett Evill (The opinions expressed above are not those of the Bureau of Transport Economics, the Federal Department of Transport and Regional Services, or the Australian Commonwealth Government.) ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2000May24.214341.16147@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CS Lab, University of Toronto References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <6ud7mb1y3d.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Date: 25 May 2000 01:43:41 GMT Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7372 In article <6ud7mb1y3d.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >> So it's not a strategy you want to apply galaxy-wide - the subject >> of the thread was, I believe, invasions of _Earth_. > >But any hypothetical alien who intends to do this with earth, would >first had to get the plan to do this with some planet and then settle >on earth as actual target. Explain again why they couldn't decide to do this _after_ discovering Earth? >> >Add in risk of sabotage. >> >> Sabotage is not the aliens' problem. The governments of earth, after >> being convinced that lviing under the alien thumb is preferable to being >> wiped out, will protect the operation. > >You seem to have a great belief in the absolute power of governments >in detecting and stopping anything they do not like. Given that the survival of the human race depends on this, I think they'll devote a reasonable amount of resources to security. Of course it won't be completely secure, but what is? >> And even if sabotage shuts down >> the operation, so what? You still have your ship and the comets are still >> there. You haven't lost anything > >I was not thinking of sabotage to shut down the plants on earth, I was >thinking of sabotage to get the aliens (explosives smuggled on board of >the water/ice transporters, detonating after arival in the aliens ship). Seems like that would be fairly trivial to detect. ###### From: BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 25 May 2000 01:44:04 GMT Organization: Bureau of Transport Economics Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8gi0h4$9bs126@cook.dotrs.gov.au> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl <8gcgja$ngg$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uya51rknt.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gfl54$jcn$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6u1z2r1xkd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.120.132.197 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!cook.dotrs.gov.au!newsmaster Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7319 In article <6u1z2r1xkd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote... > >Walt Smith writes: > >> In article <6uya51rknt.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, >> Neil Franklin wrote: >> > dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) writes: > >> > > The latter is only "cheaper" if the aliens can build some >> > > sort of Von Neumann machine -- this is NOT necessarily the >> > > case. >> > >> > Try spaceflight without one. Even Appollo 11 had an computer on board >> > the eagle (not just on earth). Control computers are simple >> > technology. >> >> A Von Neumann machine is not a computer, it's a theoretical >> type of self-replicating machine. > >Oops. I mixed up Von Neuman Machine and Turing Machine. Even so. My recollection is that a Turing machine is a hypothetical computer with infinite memory. The Apollo missions made do with real machines with finite memory. Regards, -- Brett Evill (The opinions expressed above are not those of the Bureau of Transport Economics, the Federal Department of Transport and Regional Services, or the Australian Commonwealth Government.) ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 25 May 2000 03:36:20 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 37 Message-ID: <8gi73k$bqb$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atlmindspring.n <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392c7e78.905945@news.toad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.6f X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7359 jwalters@toad.net writes: >On 24 May 2000 02:25:50 GMT, tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) >wrote: >>In article <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, >>Neil Franklin wrote: >>>> OR, you could send one ship and have it force the locals to shunt >>>> similarly sized chunks of ice into orbit or face extinction. True, it's >>>> horribly inefficient. >>>Assuming: >>> >>>a) locals exist >>>b) locals have ice-into-orbit capable technology >>>c) locals don't have superiour weapons technology >>> b and c produce a damn small window of opportunity >> So it's not a strategy you want to apply galaxy-wide - the subject >> of the thread was, I believe, invasions of _Earth_. Earth is inhabited; >> its inhabitants have the technology to get things into orbit; and, as I >> belive everyone in the thread has agreed, it has no reasonable capacity >> at all to defend itself against a starfaring conqueror. > You seem to be missing an important point here. Your scenario > doesn't work unless the aliens KNOW that the Earth meets these > criteria. Yes, but anyone within a few dozen light-years of Earth can figure that much out without using any technology greater than a radio telescope. Also bear in mind that the aliens don't necessarily have to have come to the Earth's solar system specifically looking for intelligent life; they could have come here for something else entirely (inhabitable worlds, for example) and simply decided to take advantage of the "natives" once they got here. -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 25 May 2000 03:39:50 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8gi7a6$spf$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <6ud7mb1y3d.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May24.214341.16147@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.6f X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7362 tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) writes: >Neil Franklin wrote: >> I was not thinking of sabotage to shut down the plants on earth, I was >> thinking of sabotage to get the aliens (explosives smuggled on board of >> the water/ice transporters, detonating after arival in the aliens ship). > Seems like that would be fairly trivial to detect. More to the point, why on Earth would the aliens bring packages from Earth on board _their_ ship? For a guy who complains about "stupid aliens" so much, Neil sure does have a hard time imagining an alien race with tighter security than the one in "Independence Day". -- Dan ###### From: Walt Smith Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:53:45 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8gjepf$ar5$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl <8gcgja$ngg$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uya51rknt.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gfl54$jcn$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6u1z2r1xkd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gi0h4$9bs126@cook.dotrs.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 147.205.85.124 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 25 14:53:45 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x72.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 147.205.85.124 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDfirelock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!iol.ie!newsfeed.esat.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7306 In article <8gi0h4$9bs126@cook.dotrs.gov.au>, BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au (Brett Evill) wrote: > Even so. My recollection is that a Turing machine is a hypothetical > computer with infinite memory. The Apollo missions made do with real > machines with finite memory. It's only "infinite" in that the Turing Machine concept isn't limited by what you can currently build. In theory, every computer problem that we can concieve of can be solved by a computer based on the Turing model. The amount of memory such a machine would have is, of course, limited by what technology and resources the builders have to devote to it. Walt Smith -- Firelock on DALNet Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Walt Smith Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:58:25 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8gjf25$b5t$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl <8gcgja$ngg$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uya51rknt.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gfl54$jcn$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6u1z2r1xkd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 147.205.85.124 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 25 14:58:25 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x72.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 147.205.85.124 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDfirelock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7297 In article <6u1z2r1xkd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > Walt Smith writes: > > It's common in science fiction to have interstellar flight that's > > impractical for intra-system travel. IMO, this scenario would > > *require* the aliens' interstellar drives to have this limitation. > > Intra-system ship(s) as cargo of the interstellar one? > The scenario would require the alien's intra-system drives to be comparable to our own. Thus, they might carry landing craft or other short range craft, but wouldn't have the drives needed to travel extensively throughout the outer system (as they'd need to do to go comet hunting). Walt Smith -- Firelock on DALNet Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Walt Smith Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:03:05 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8gjfas$b9u$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3925406E.F4AF2AB4@myriad.net> <392A430E.3CA95C3B@clear.net.nz> <392C657F.4BBD@le.ac.uk> <392C29C4.82251EB5@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 147.205.85.124 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 25 15:03:05 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x72.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 147.205.85.124 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDfirelock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7307 In article <392C29C4.82251EB5@myriad.net>, "Frank T. Sronce" wrote: > I suppose as soon as the humans got too corrupt and vicious to be > bearable, they'd be looking for yet another 'violent' race to beat up > the now weak and complacent humans and take their place, too. Y'know, > you might be able to keep your species going for quite a long while that > way... give it enough time and you can cycle back to the original > overlords who have now regressed into barbarism and don't remember you > anymore. :-) Do it right, and your barbarous overlords won't realize that you've actually been the ones running things for centuries. I remember one of the races available in Mayfair's Cosmic Encounter being a race of professional servants... Walt Smith -- Firelock on DALNet Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: james_n@morse.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 25 May 2000 17:04:55 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 49 Message-ID: <8gjmfn$a8e$1@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6ud7mb1y3d.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May24.214341.16147@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gi7a6$spf$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: morse.uwaterloo.ca X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!torn!watserv3.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7355 In article <8gi7a6$spf$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, Dan Bongard wrote: >tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) writes: >>Neil Franklin wrote: > >>> I was not thinking of sabotage to shut down the plants on earth, I was >>> thinking of sabotage to get the aliens (explosives smuggled on board of >>> the water/ice transporters, detonating after arival in the aliens ship). > >> Seems like that would be fairly trivial to detect. > >More to the point, why on Earth would the aliens bring packages >from Earth on board _their_ ship? For a guy who complains >about "stupid aliens" so much, Neil sure does have a hard >time imagining an alien race with tighter security than the >one in "Independence Day". _A Small Colonial War_ by Frezza has a scenario something like this: There's a world whose settlement by Afrikaaners was financed by large Japanese corporations, the Japanese having sat WWIII out and being in control. The Afrikaaners are the second of three waves of colonisation, the first being basically hippies, and the third US "cowboys" brought in when the Afrikaaners, themselves brought in to replace the idiot hippies, who weren't thriving, turned out to be difficult and hard to manage. This sets up a nice three way civil war, made worse by bungling by the local Large Company. Eventually, people on Earth notice and send some ships out to step on the locals so they will stop fighting each other go back to providing cheap raw materials for the homeworld [rare raw materials: one of the constraints is that spaceflight puts similar mass constraints on transport as air travel]. To begin with the strategic positions are very unfair: the military folk have control of space and superior weapons [although mass-constrained in types and numbers]. What the Afrikaaners do is offer the very corrupt space-commander a large quantity of gold in exchange for favours. He gets the gold, which because it is a bribe he has smuggled on board via irregular channels. As it turns out, about 10 kg of the 'gold' is actually plutonium and the ship's defenses are not up to a 10 kt explosion in the captain's quarters. -- "Sure, Len, just because something is old doesn't mean it's engraved in stone. We know a lot more about entertainment now than they did back then. Look at Lawrence Olivier! You think he was in any of Shakespeare's original productions? No! They added him years later!" ###### Message-ID: <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atlmindspring.n <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:32:27 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.218.103 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 959305153 207.71.218.103 (Thu, 25 May 2000 18:39:13 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:39:13 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:39:13 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7402 Trevor Barrie wrote: > there. You haven't lost anything - just wipe out the schmucks and go back > to your mining plan. > > Of course, the idea of aliens coming to our solar system for water still > seemd silly, but I'm becoming convinced that if they do, Earth is probably > the best place to get it. *sigh* no. The thing for the aliens to do is go to the comets _first_ (or Trojan asteroids, or wherever), and extract the water. That's always going to be more practical then hauling it up a steep gravity well. Hint: the technology that allows interstellar travel in nearly all cases (unless the author jumps through some really high hoops to make it impossible to) is going to allow for cheap extraction of water from asteroids. It's not high technology, it's not labor intensive- we have the technology today to do it. It's really trivial compared to interstellar travel. So the idea of invading for water is as nonsensical as invading to steal blond-haired women. Not that that's going to stop film makers. -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### Message-ID: <392DE426.B421DEBA@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uwvkm2v7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3929855F.1DEE8E0@myriad.net> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <392C3245.2E297B44@myriad.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:40:38 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.218.103 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 959305644 207.71.218.103 (Thu, 25 May 2000 18:47:24 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:47:24 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:47:24 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7404 Frank T. Sronce wrote: > > Neil Franklin wrote: > Definitely. I could see aliens showing up looking for a few things, but > water and/or food seem pretty unlikely unless it's a desperation > maneuver... eg- their FTL drive is flaky and they need to replenish > their supplies for the 200+ years it'll take to fix it, so they coast > into the nearest inhabited solar system looking for an easy source... So they land on Europa. So much for the invasion film. ;'/ Of course the likelihood that the ship's drive/life support/whatever gives out just close enough to a star system for them to limp in...as opposed to needing a hundred years or so, is something else again. They never seem to show invasion films about the aliens who had a break down .5 light years out, and died thirty or so years away from the solar system. -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### From: Steve M Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <0b51f39f.563c76ec@usw-ex0109-068.remarq.com> Lines: 14 Bytes: 404 X-Originating-Host: 139.130.215.201 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uwvkm2v7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3929855F.1DEE8E0@myriad.net> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <392C3245.2E297B44@myriad.net> <392DE426.B421DEBA@silcom.com> X-Wren-Trace: eObD6+rztP61tebr867i4fnV/u7x57X/9vjq4Py8/KnkrqfyqPegsaS2sbOm9KSkqbi6uA== Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:36:50 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.68 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon4 959320120 10.0.2.68 (Thu, 25 May 2000 22:48:40 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:48:40 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon4.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7505 > They never seem to show invasion films about the > aliens who had a > break down .5 light years out, and died thirty or so > years away from > the solar system. > -- ATTACK OF THE DEHYDRATED SPACE ZOMBIES!!!!! Starring Jack Palance. * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CS Lab, University of Toronto References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> Date: 26 May 2000 06:26:00 GMT Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!howland.erols.net!torn!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7513 In article <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com>, Eric Tolle wrote: >> Of course, the idea of aliens coming to our solar system for water still >> seemd silly, but I'm becoming convinced that if they do, Earth is probably >> the best place to get it. > >*sigh* no. The thing for the aliens to do is go to the comets >_first_ (or Trojan asteroids, or wherever), and extract the water. >That's always going to be more practical then hauling it up a >steep gravity well. Read the post to which you're responding. The aliens aren't hauling anything out of the gravity well - they're telling the humans "Ship that water into space or we'll wipe you out". >Hint: the technology that allows interstellar >travel in nearly all cases (unless the author jumps through some >really high hoops to make it impossible to) is going to allow for >cheap extraction of water from asteroids. How, exactly? And how is collecting water from uncounted numbers of miniscule planetoids scattered around the solar system going to be more efficient than getting it all in one place? ###### From: BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 26 May 2000 07:37:21 GMT Organization: Bureau of Transport Economics Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.120.132.197 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!cook.dotrs.gov.au!newsmaster Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7453 In article <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>, Trevor Barrie wrote... >How, exactly? And how is collecting water from uncounted numbers of >miniscule planetoids scattered around the solar system going to be >more efficient than getting it all in one place? In terms of energy required: it would cost less energy to bring a comet into Earth orbit than to raise an equal mass of water from Earth's surface to orbit. Any other destination is even more to the disadvantage of Earth as a source. And many of your 'miniscule planetoids' represent trillions of tonnes of water. Even if a cubic kilometre of water is too small a quantity to be bothered fiddling with, Earth still has to compete as a source with Europa, which has oceans tens of kilometres deep and millions of square kilometres in extent at a gravitational potential far higher than that of Earth's surface. No local labour, it is true. But Earth's local labour is pretty much useless for lifting things to orbit on the scale of trillions of tonnes. Regards, -- Brett Evill (The opinions expressed above are not those of the Bureau of Transport Economics, the Federal Department of Transport and Regional Services, or the Australian Commonwealth Government.) ###### Message-ID: <392E40F9.90587ED8@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uwvkm2v7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3929855F.1DEE8E0@myriad.net> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 52 Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 02:16:41 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.222.38 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 959329400 207.71.222.38 (Fri, 26 May 2000 01:23:20 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:23:20 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:23:21 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7400 Neil Franklin wrote: > > "Frank T. Sronce" writes: > > we need _some_ motivation for them). You could send 10 water-mining > > ships with 10 crews and have them perform the somewhat dangerous task of > > matching course with ice asteroids, extract the pure water, and then > > have it shipped home. You can make a reasonable living this way. Of course those ice-mining ships, instead of being sent to another star system, could be sent to get ice in-system. In addition, nearly any technology that makes FTL feasible, makes Oort mining even cheaper. Since ice mining presents trivial difficulties compared to FTL travel and could be easily automated (with present day technology yet), AFAIC the scenario doesn't make sense economically, or in any other fashion. > > OR, you could send one ship and have it force the locals to shunt > > similarly sized chunks of ice into orbit or face extinction. True, it's > > horribly inefficient. > Assuming: > > a) locals exist > b) locals have ice-into-orbit capable technology > c) locals don't have superiour weapons technology > b and c produce a damn small window of opportunity If the locals have sufficient ground-to-orbit capability to send enough megatonnage of ice into orbit to make things worthwhile, the aliens wouldn't be able to dominate them easily. We'd wouldn't be talking even close to contemporary technology- more like "Man- Kzin Wars", than "V". If the aliens are _still_ able to dominate through magic-indistinguishable-from -technology, then the reasons for dealing with the planet become even more minuscule. The bottom line is that in a scenario that obeys real world physics, it's completely uneconomical for the aliens to deal with the planet (not to mention the idiocy of going to another star system for water). If we're talking about Star Trek style fantasy, then their motives make even less sense, because they have even less reason to deal with the planet. So obviously the whole water bit is a ruse- they're _really_ here to collect our buxom blonde starlets. -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### From: Walt Smith Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:30:16 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8gm1p1$7c2$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uwvkm2v7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3929855F.1DEE8E0@myriad.net> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <392C3245.2E297B44@myriad.net> <392DE426.B421DEBA@silcom.com> <0b51f39f.563c76ec@usw-ex0109-068.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 147.205.88.244 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri May 26 14:30:16 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 95; ZDNetSL) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x52.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 147.205.88.244 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDfirelock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7411 In article <0b51f39f.563c76ec@usw-ex0109-068.remarq.com>, Steve M wrote: > > > They never seem to show invasion films about the > > aliens who had a > > break down .5 light years out, and died thirty or so > > years away from > > the solar system. > > -- > > ATTACK OF THE DEHYDRATED SPACE ZOMBIES!!!!! That pretty much describes LIFEFORCE. Walt Smith -- Firelock on DALNet Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:35:27 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 34 Message-ID: <392EA7CF.C1792076@myriad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 May 2000 18:27:41 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.yosemite.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7403 Brett Evill wrote: > > Even if a cubic kilometre of water is too small a quantity to be bothered > fiddling with, Earth still has to compete as a source with Europa, which has > oceans tens of kilometres deep and millions of square kilometres in extent at > a gravitational potential far higher than that of Earth's surface. No local > labour, it is true. But Earth's local labour is pretty much useless for > lifting things to orbit on the scale of trillions of tonnes. > > Regards, > > -- > Brett Evill But Europa's water has that nasty metallic aftertaste... :-) "We demand that the governments of earth ship one trillion bottles of Evian water into orbit by sometime next tuesday, or we'll wipe your species out!" Yeah, the water-mining excuse for an invasion gets REALLY unlikely if there are any decent sized, stable planetoids in our solar system with similar water reserves (I didn't know there were, but apparently Europa qualifies). So if they do invade, it would have to be for something particularly rare (eg- the earth's platinum reserves are among the richest in the universe!) or they'd want a biological product (Mars Wants Our Chewing Tobacco!) that they can't easily duplicate. And in any case, unless the aliens are blatantly xenophobic, they could just _trade_ for whatever they want pretty easily. Earth governments and businesses would probably pay billions for the kind of technology that the aliens give away as toys in cereal boxes. :-) Kiz ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:20:41 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 16 Message-ID: <392EB269.3829CF55@myriad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <390f1ad2.2292176@news.cwcom.net> <1ea1v03.18v8bpt76p0lmN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <39107672.6680501@news.cwcom.net> <39113EB8.DFCFD589@met.rdg.ac.uk> <1ea4mta.6llmf01uqd1bgN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <3912AE8A.230A@wizvax.net> <3913886F.54A45BD@silcom.com> <392360fc.1770762@news.idt.net> <3924EBBC.78C84D04@silcom.com> <8g2vac$c9n$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <6uwvkm2v7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3929855F.1DEE8E0@myriad.net> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <392C3245.2E297B44@myriad.net> <392DE426.B421DEBA@silcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 May 2000 19:12:55 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp2.giganews.com!news-feeds.jump.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7401 Eric Tolle wrote: > > They never seem to show invasion films about the aliens who had a > break down .5 light years out, and died thirty or so years away from > the solar system. > > -- > > Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com That was the hidden undertext in Ishtar, y'know. The constant hidden threat of alien invasion that never quite materializes because they're all dead before the movie started. :-) Kiz ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 26 May 2000 19:04:02 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 32 Message-ID: <8gmhr2$8aj$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uln16ck1e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8gbr27$t8q$1@nntp9.atlmindspring.n <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.6a X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7497 Eric Tolle writes: >Trevor Barrie wrote: >> there. You haven't lost anything - just wipe out the schmucks and go back >> to your mining plan. >> >> Of course, the idea of aliens coming to our solar system for water still >> seemd silly, but I'm becoming convinced that if they do, Earth is probably >> the best place to get it. >*sigh* no. The thing for the aliens to do is go to the comets >_first_ (or Trojan asteroids, or wherever), and extract the water. >That's always going to be more practical then hauling it up a >steep gravity well. Mining comets requires that you send a ship to the comet and purify it. Bringing water into orbit from a planet into orbit, on the other hand, costs you absolutely nothing. Since "nothing" is cheaper than "something", getting water from Earth is more practical. With comet mining, YOU pay the energy and materials cost needed to find, retrieve, and purify the water. With the "threaten the puny humans" method, the HUMANS pay the energy and materials cost needed to find, retrieve, purify, and launch the water. Sure, the HUMANS pay orders of magnitude more in terms of energy costs, but so what? They're paying it, not the aliens. :) -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 26 May 2000 19:14:12 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.6a X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7491 BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au (Brett Evill) writes: >In article <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>, Trevor Barrie >wrote... >>How, exactly? And how is collecting water from uncounted numbers of >>miniscule planetoids scattered around the solar system going to be >>more efficient than getting it all in one place? > In terms of energy required: it would cost less energy to bring > a comet into Earth orbit than to raise an equal mass of water > from Earth's surface to orbit. What about time required? if the aliens have only a single ship, individually cruising around to each of the various comets scattered throughout the Oort cloud could easily take years per comet (and don't forget the wasted fuel). On the flip side, they could prod humanity into building a few thousand improved space shuttles (or some such thing) and have a few cubic kilometers of purified water shipped into orbit each year while the aliens kick back watching "ALF" re-reruns. -- Dan ###### From: james_n@morse.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 26 May 2000 21:00:32 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8gmolg$6p9$1@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <392EA7CF.C1792076@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: morse.uwaterloo.ca X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!torn!watserv3.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7487 In article <392EA7CF.C1792076@myriad.net>, Frank T. Sronce wrote: > > And in any case, unless the aliens are blatantly xenophobic, they could >just _trade_ for whatever they want pretty easily. Earth governments and >businesses would probably pay billions for the kind of technology that >the aliens give away as toys in cereal boxes. :-) You can still get invasions that way: see the history of Central America. -- "Sure, Len, just because something is old doesn't mean it's engraved in stone. We know a lot more about entertainment now than they did back then. Look at Lawrence Olivier! You think he was in any of Shakespeare's original productions? No! They added him years later!" ###### Message-ID: <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:06:58 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-208.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-208.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 26 May 2000 17:11:48 -0400, cm-24-29-52-208.nycap.rr.com Lines: 22 XPident: tuulia X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!psiuk-p4!uknet!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-208.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7547 Dan Bongard wrote: > What about time required? if the aliens have only a single ship, > individually cruising around to each of the various comets > scattered throughout the Oort cloud could easily take years > per comet (and don't forget the wasted fuel). On the flip > side, they could prod humanity into building a few thousand > improved space shuttles (or some such thing) and have a > few cubic kilometers of purified water shipped into orbit > each year while the aliens kick back watching "ALF" re-reruns. Europa has billions of cubic kilometers of water with no hostiles guarding it. And why go all the way to the Oort cloud? The rings of Saturn probably have more water in one place than you'll ever need. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: james_n@morse.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 26 May 2000 23:23:28 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8gn11g$cmt$1@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: morse.uwaterloo.ca X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!torn!watserv3.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7485 In article <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net>, Sea Wasp wrote: >Dan Bongard wrote: > >> What about time required? if the aliens have only a single ship, >> individually cruising around to each of the various comets >> scattered throughout the Oort cloud could easily take years >> per comet (and don't forget the wasted fuel). On the flip >> side, they could prod humanity into building a few thousand >> improved space shuttles (or some such thing) and have a >> few cubic kilometers of purified water shipped into orbit >> each year while the aliens kick back watching "ALF" re-reruns. > > Europa has billions of cubic kilometers of water with no hostiles >guarding it. > > And why go all the way to the Oort cloud? The rings of Saturn probably >have more water in one place than you'll ever need. Causing the peace-loving people of Earth to declare war: if they have to harvest water from our system, do they need to use one of the great wonders of this system? I think not. -- "Sure, Len, just because something is old doesn't mean it's engraved in stone. We know a lot more about entertainment now than they did back then. Look at Lawrence Olivier! You think he was in any of Shakespeare's original productions? No! They added him years later!" ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 26 May 2000 23:24:55 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.74 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!feeder.qis.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7492 Sea Wasp writes: >Dan Bongard wrote: >> What about time required? if the aliens have only a single ship, >> individually cruising around to each of the various comets >> scattered throughout the Oort cloud could easily take years >> per comet (and don't forget the wasted fuel). On the flip >> side, they could prod humanity into building a few thousand >> improved space shuttles (or some such thing) and have a >> few cubic kilometers of purified water shipped into orbit >> each year while the aliens kick back watching "ALF" re-reruns. > Europa has billions of cubic kilometers of water with no hostiles > guarding it. Earth has plenty of water with no hostiles guarding it, plus local labor and a ready-made infrastructure -- assuming that, by "hostiles", you mean "people capable of fighting back". > And why go all the way to the Oort cloud? The rings of Saturn > probably have more water in one place than you'll ever need. As I pointed out above, because it is better to make other people do the work (and pay the costs) instead of doing it yourself. -- Dan ###### Message-ID: <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 19:29:07 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-208.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-208.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 26 May 2000 19:33:58 -0400, cm-24-29-52-208.nycap.rr.com Lines: 50 XPident: tuulia X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-208.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7550 Dan Bongard wrote: > > Sea Wasp writes: > > >Dan Bongard wrote: > > >> What about time required? if the aliens have only a single ship, > >> individually cruising around to each of the various comets > >> scattered throughout the Oort cloud could easily take years > >> per comet (and don't forget the wasted fuel). On the flip > >> side, they could prod humanity into building a few thousand > >> improved space shuttles (or some such thing) and have a > >> few cubic kilometers of purified water shipped into orbit > >> each year while the aliens kick back watching "ALF" re-reruns. > > > Europa has billions of cubic kilometers of water with no hostiles > > guarding it. > > Earth has plenty of water with no hostiles guarding it, plus > local labor and a ready-made infrastructure -- assuming that, > by "hostiles", you mean "people capable of fighting back". Intelligent beings will steal your technology, assuming they have a technological culture of their own, and LEARN to fight back. Only interstellar morons would think otherwise. And only a REAL moron would believe they could prevent said intelligent beings from doing just that. > > > And why go all the way to the Oort cloud? The rings of Saturn > > probably have more water in one place than you'll ever need. > > As I pointed out above, because it is better to make other > people do the work (and pay the costs) instead of doing it > yourself. The sheer POWER required to cross the stellar distances, and the control of that amount of power that goes with it, makes the effort literally trivial. Send down an automated gadget that just ejects water into space for you. In fact, if you really want THAT much water, send down a really big gadget, and move Europa. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 28 May 2000 09:32:01 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 60 Message-ID: <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.68 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7494 Sea Wasp writes: >Dan Bongard wrote: >> Sea Wasp writes: >>> Dan Bongard wrote: >>>> What about time required? if the aliens have only a single ship, >>>> individually cruising around to each of the various comets >>>> scattered throughout the Oort cloud could easily take years >>>> per comet (and don't forget the wasted fuel). On the flip >>>> side, they could prod humanity into building a few thousand >>>> improved space shuttles (or some such thing) and have a >>>> few cubic kilometers of purified water shipped into orbit >>>> each year while the aliens kick back watching "ALF" re-reruns. >>> Europa has billions of cubic kilometers of water with no hostiles >>> guarding it. >> Earth has plenty of water with no hostiles guarding it, plus >> local labor and a ready-made infrastructure -- assuming that, >> by "hostiles", you mean "people capable of fighting back". > Intelligent beings will steal your technology, assuming they have a > technological culture of their own, and LEARN to fight back. Thank you, Mr. Macho Man. When you can actually come up with a plan whereby an unprepared Earth could prepare and launch an attack against a space-based foe without it being glaringly obvious months (or years) in advance, feel free to offer it. Until then, you're just spouting bullshit. >>> And why go all the way to the Oort cloud? The rings of Saturn >>> probably have more water in one place than you'll ever need. >> As I pointed out above, because it is better to make other >> people do the work (and pay the costs) instead of doing it >> yourself. > The sheer POWER required to cross the stellar distances, and the > control of that amount of power that goes with it, makes the effort > literally trivial.u Have you got shit between your ears? Zero effort -- ie, "threaten the humans" -- is less effort than "trivial effort", ergo "threaten the humans" is the way to go. Furthermore you are overlooking the glaringly obvious fact that, at the time the spaceship was _built_ and _launched_, it had access to the total resources of its home system. Upon arriving in the Earth's solar system it has only those resources which it brought with it. What would be "trivial" in the home system isn't at all trivial at the destination. Sending a spaceship between systems requires nothing more than good life-support technology and a great deal of patience. Nothing in that suggests, or requires, that circling the solar system a few thousand times collecting comets will be "trivial". -- Dan ###### Message-ID: <3931029A.78CC@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> From: Brett Evill X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: tynslip4.apana.org.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 959513242 202.12.90.168 (Sun, 28 May 2000 21:27:22 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 21:27:22 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 21:27:23 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7514 Dan Bongard wrote: > > Thank you, Mr. Macho Man. When you can actually come up with a > plan whereby an unprepared Earth could prepare and launch an > attack against a space-based foe without it being glaringly > obvious months (or years) in advance, feel free to offer it. I still think that the people and their hostility and capability are a red herring. Earth is a downright inferior source of water to Europa, no question, and is mostly likely inferior to the rings of Saturn and comets. Regards, Brett Evill ###### Message-ID: <39311159.F29@wizvax.net> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 08:30:17 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-12.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-12.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 28 May 2000 08:35:06 -0400, cm-24-29-52-12.nycap.rr.com Lines: 86 XPident: tuulia X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!psiuk-p4!uknet!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-12.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7544 Dan Bongard wrote: > > Sea Wasp writes: > >Dan Bongard wrote: > >> Sea Wasp writes: > >>> Dan Bongard wrote: > > >>>> What about time required? if the aliens have only a single ship, > >>>> individually cruising around to each of the various comets > >>>> scattered throughout the Oort cloud could easily take years > >>>> per comet (and don't forget the wasted fuel). On the flip > >>>> side, they could prod humanity into building a few thousand > >>>> improved space shuttles (or some such thing) and have a > >>>> few cubic kilometers of purified water shipped into orbit > >>>> each year while the aliens kick back watching "ALF" re-reruns. > > >>> Europa has billions of cubic kilometers of water with no hostiles > >>> guarding it. > > >> Earth has plenty of water with no hostiles guarding it, plus > >> local labor and a ready-made infrastructure -- assuming that, > >> by "hostiles", you mean "people capable of fighting back". > > > Intelligent beings will steal your technology, assuming they have a > > technological culture of their own, and LEARN to fight back. > > Thank you, Mr. Macho Man. When you can actually come up with a > plan whereby an unprepared Earth could prepare and launch an > attack against a space-based foe without it being glaringly > obvious months (or years) in advance, feel free to offer it. I would oblige you in the flamewar if it weren't for the fact that you obviously enjoy them almost as much as Terry, and you're less amusing when you start 'em, Dan. Tell you what: you come up with the full scenario -- methodology and technology of the aliens, the approach they make to Earth, the arrangements they require for their water being shipped, etc., etc, and THEN I'll give you the plan you ask for. Until then, you're just postulating a magic Threat Box whose capabilities will change to meet anything I might offer as solutions anyway. > >>> And why go all the way to the Oort cloud? The rings of Saturn > >>> probably have more water in one place than you'll ever need. > > >> As I pointed out above, because it is better to make other > >> people do the work (and pay the costs) instead of doing it > >> yourself. > > > The sheer POWER required to cross the stellar distances, and the > > control of that amount of power that goes with it, makes the effort > > literally trivial.u > > Have you got shit between your ears? Zero effort -- ie, > "threaten the humans" -- is less effort than "trivial > effort", ergo "threaten the humans" is the way to go. "Threaten humans" takes effort, albeit trivial if you assume certain technological abilities... but those same technological abilities can be used, in the same amount you're using for the threat, to get the water without threatening. The current human tech CANNOT GIVE YOU THAT WATER. We do not have that capacity. So are you going to GIVE us that technology? If we had the tech to move cubic miles of water into space, Danny Boy, we *ARE* a spacefaring culture by then. We have the technology. And your threat suddenly requires a LOT more effort. Don't believe me? Why don't you sit down and actually do some friggin' calcuations on how much energy it requires to move that much water out of our gravity well. We can't do it now. If you say "well, then, LEARN how", you're (A) taking a LOT of time waiting (and using resources, etc., which could instead easily be used to get the FREE water floating around the system, and (B) basically insisting that we develop YOUR technology to move the damn water to you. At which point, of course, we're dangerous. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: "Scott A. Taylor" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Organization: We'll let you know when we have some References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-No-Markup: Yes Message-ID: Lines: 60 Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 12:39:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.210.156.165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rochester.rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyroc.rr.com 959517585 204.210.156.165 (Sun, 28 May 2000 08:39:45 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 08:39:45 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!psiuk-p4!uknet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!24.92.226.137!cyclone.nyroc.rr.com!news.nyroc.rr.com!news.rr.com!typhoon.nyroc.rr.com.POSTED!izzylobo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7500 In article <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > Sea Wasp writes: > > The sheer POWER required to cross the stellar distances, and the > > control of that amount of power that goes with it, makes the effort > > literally trivial.u > > Have you got shit between your ears? Zero effort -- ie, > "threaten the humans" -- is less effort than "trivial > effort", ergo "threaten the humans" is the way to go. > Furthermore you are overlooking the glaringly obvious fact > that, at the time the spaceship was _built_ and _launched_, > it had access to the total resources of its home system. > Upon arriving in the Earth's solar system it has only > those resources which it brought with it. What would be > "trivial" in the home system isn't at all trivial at the > destination. > > Sending a spaceship between systems requires nothing more > than good life-support technology and a great deal of > patience. Nothing in that suggests, or requires, that > circling the solar system a few thousand times collecting > comets will be "trivial". Dan I *really*, *really* suggest that you go and read some books on space travel, especially long distance space travel, before you spout off bullshit like that... I'm being totally serious. What you have just said, *proves* that you have absolutely no conception of the distances, times, and velocities involved in getting from one star system to another without FTL travel. As for your "get the humans to do it", what if we just refuse? what are your aliens going to do, bomb us back to the Stone Age? So WHAT!!!??? If the governments of the Earth *did* ship up all that water, they'd permanently wreck the world economy (calculate how many pounds of rocket fuel, or how many watts of energy, it takes to life a ton of ice from ground to even LEO. Now multiply that by the trillions of tons you've been talking about. Now multiply it by either the cost of rocket fuel (say hydrazine) or a watt-hour of power. Now you have the burden on the world economy you're talking about). And if we did do it, you'd just bomb Earth back into the Stone Age *anyways*, because you sure as shit can't leave us behind, tracking your every move as you leave... because once we recover (which would happen eventually), we're gonna sure as hell build an interceptor to go after you and blow you to kingdom come, or at least try. Your scenario is, quite frankly, ludicrous. It is so much easier, safer, and just plain *smarter* to just either negotiate for the use of a chunk of the asteroid belt, or stay out in the Kuiper belt and suck down some comets before heading out, that any other method is being done out of societal lunacy or idiocy. There may well be reasons to invade a planet... resources, especially water, is *not* one of them. -- Scott Taylor Freelancer for Hire Have Powerbook, Will Travel ###### From: jwalters@toad.net Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Message-ID: <39313922.1080960@news.toad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 95 Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 15:53:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.114.75 X-Complaints-To: abuse@toad.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 959529092 209.150.114.75 (Sun, 28 May 2000 11:51:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 11:51:32 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7410 On 28 May 2000 09:32:01 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >Sea Wasp writes: >>Dan Bongard wrote: >>> Sea Wasp writes: >>>> Dan Bongard wrote: > >>>>> What about time required? if the aliens have only a single ship, >>>>> individually cruising around to each of the various comets >>>>> scattered throughout the Oort cloud could easily take years >>>>> per comet (and don't forget the wasted fuel). On the flip >>>>> side, they could prod humanity into building a few thousand >>>>> improved space shuttles (or some such thing) and have a >>>>> few cubic kilometers of purified water shipped into orbit >>>>> each year while the aliens kick back watching "ALF" re-reruns. > >>>> Europa has billions of cubic kilometers of water with no hostiles >>>> guarding it. > >>> Earth has plenty of water with no hostiles guarding it, plus >>> local labor and a ready-made infrastructure -- assuming that, >>> by "hostiles", you mean "people capable of fighting back". > >> Intelligent beings will steal your technology, assuming they have a >> technological culture of their own, and LEARN to fight back. > >Thank you, Mr. Macho Man. When you can actually come up with a >plan whereby an unprepared Earth could prepare and launch an >attack against a space-based foe without it being glaringly >obvious months (or years) in advance, feel free to offer it. > >Until then, you're just spouting bullshit. The exact details of such a plan would depend on the exact details of the alien technology. Here is one fairly simple possibility. Sneak a tactical nuke into any one of the thousands of shuttle flights you are postulating, and then vaporise the mothership. Depending upon the technology the aliens are using, it may be decades before the aliens come back, if ever. They may simply come to their senses and use the huge quantities of undefended water which must be all throughout their own solar system. >>>> And why go all the way to the Oort cloud? The rings of Saturn >>>> probably have more water in one place than you'll ever need. > >>> As I pointed out above, because it is better to make other >>> people do the work (and pay the costs) instead of doing it >>> yourself. > >> The sheer POWER required to cross the stellar distances, and the >> control of that amount of power that goes with it, makes the effort >> literally trivial.u > >Have you got shit between your ears? Zero effort -- ie, >"threaten the humans" -- is less effort than "trivial >effort", ergo "threaten the humans" is the way to go. Threaten the humans is hardly a zero effort scenario. You have to learn at least one human language. You have to learn enough about human psychology that your threat will get the desired result, and not generate undesirable side-effects. You have to learn enough about human politics and power structures so that you deliver your ultimatum to the right people. You have to learn enough about human technology so that you know what they can or cannot reasonably build for you. You may have to give the humans improved launch technology. You have to have some sort of mechanism for making sure that the humans are doing what you tell them to, and not plot against you. These are just some of the major things you need to do. In practice, there are probably thousands of things you need to do before you can pull this off, and years of preparation. Snagging a comet or carving a chunk out of Europa is easier. Doing the same in your own solar system is easier still. >Furthermore you are overlooking the glaringly obvious fact >that, at the time the spaceship was _built_ and _launched_, >it had access to the total resources of its home system. >Upon arriving in the Earth's solar system it has only >those resources which it brought with it. What would be >"trivial" in the home system isn't at all trivial at the >destination. > >Sending a spaceship between systems requires nothing more >than good life-support technology and a great deal of >patience. Nothing in that suggests, or requires, that >circling the solar system a few thousand times collecting >comets will be "trivial". Why a few thousand times? Comets can be miles in diameter. How big is this mothership you are postulating? A couple of big comets would fill the holds of anything smaller than the Death Star. Now compare this to the space shuttle. The cargo bay on the shuttle can hold something about the size of a bus. How many shuttle flights would it take to carry a volume of water equivalent to one comet, let alone thousands? ###### From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 12:25:11 -0400 Organization: Prometheus Corp. Lines: 9 Message-ID: <39314867.F6F@erols.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <39313922.1080960@news.toad.net> Reply-To: richberg@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: usoWNybVuN2wtDiiZ+/74jYk7TankjY9VLIuiU9MrFg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 May 2000 16:26:23 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7532 jwalters@toad.net wrote: > > The exact details of such a plan would depend on the exact details of > the alien technology. Here is one fairly simple possibility. Sneak a > tactical nuke into any one of the thousands of shuttle flights you are > postulating, and then vaporise the mothership. Other than in the movies, who invades a foreign power with only one ship? ###### Message-ID: <39315E80.3D66@wizvax.net> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 13:59:28 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <39313922.1080960@news.toad.net> <39314867.F6F@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-141.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-141.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 28 May 2000 14:04:18 -0400, cm-24-29-52-141.nycap.rr.com Lines: 22 XPident: tuulia X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!cyclone-transit.snfc21.pbi.net!206.190.128.10!newsfeed.yosemite.net!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-141.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7549 Richard D. Bergstresser Jr. wrote: > > jwalters@toad.net wrote: > > > > The exact details of such a plan would depend on the exact details of > > the alien technology. Here is one fairly simple possibility. Sneak a > > tactical nuke into any one of the thousands of shuttle flights you are > > postulating, and then vaporise the mothership. > > Other than in the movies, who invades a foreign power with only one > ship? By the current standards, we wouldn't be a foreign power. The aliens would be in the position of a modern battleship mooring next to an 1800s Polynesian island. One ship is plenty. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 14:47:27 -0400 Organization: Prometheus Corp. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <393169BF.2751@erols.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <39313922.1080960@news.toad.net> <39314867.F6F@erols.com> <39315E80.3D66@wizvax.net> Reply-To: richberg@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: Z6TuKfaUkz+IIyMxoDMSd60tUEDreasJCeJKsST/ybk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 May 2000 18:48:37 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7533 Sea Wasp wrote: > > > Other than in the movies, who invades a foreign power with only one > > ship? > > By the current standards, we wouldn't be a foreign power. The aliens > would be in the position of a modern battleship mooring next to an 1800s > Polynesian island. One ship is plenty. Granted. I shoulda thought of Cortez and such. But what keeps the Polynesians/Aztecs/Zulus/Terrans/Whoever from seizing the one or few ships with their supperior numbers? Yeah, it's harder to get to space, and guys like Cortez had no plan to go home UNLESS they won, but if the aliens only want water rather than territory they'd prolly leave if things looked tough. But, OK, what keeps the natives from seizing ships? (I know Cortez coopted the disaffected locals artificially altering the numeric balance.) One ship vs. a planet? I don't know how large that ship is, but even if the crew equals New York's population, the Earth would still outnumber them by a few orders of magnitude. ###### Message-ID: <39317A82.1E58@wizvax.net> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 15:58:58 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <39313922.1080960@news.toad.net> <39314867.F6F@erols.com> <39315E80.3D66@wizvax.net> <393169BF.2751@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-200.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-200.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 28 May 2000 16:03:53 -0400, cm-24-29-52-200.nycap.rr.com Lines: 46 XPident: wilson X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-200.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7594 Richard D. Bergstresser Jr. wrote: > > Sea Wasp wrote: > > > > > Other than in the movies, who invades a foreign power with only one > > > ship? > > > > By the current standards, we wouldn't be a foreign power. The aliens > > would be in the position of a modern battleship mooring next to an 1800s > > Polynesian island. One ship is plenty. > > Granted. > > I shoulda thought of Cortez and such. > > But what keeps the Polynesians/Aztecs/Zulus/Terrans/Whoever from > seizing the one or few ships with their supperior numbers? > > Yeah, it's harder to get to space, and guys like Cortez had no > plan to go home UNLESS they won, but if the aliens only want > water rather than territory they'd prolly leave if things looked > tough. > > But, OK, what keeps the natives from seizing ships? > > (I know Cortez coopted the disaffected locals artificially altering > the numeric balance.) > > One ship vs. a planet? > > I don't know how large that ship is, but even if the crew equals > New York's population, the Earth would still outnumber them by a > few orders of magnitude. There's a number of things that might, but the real point wouldn't be some heroic instant takeover, but the point that in order to get us to do useful work for them, they'd either have to raise our technology themselves, or give us time to do it. With our current tech, moving a cubic mile of water into orbit would be utterly ridiculous. Dan hasn't got the faintest conception of what he's asking. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 28 May 2000 20:50:45 GMT References: <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000528165045.29739.00000140@ng-fx1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7564 < << Thank you, Mr. Macho Man. When you can actually come up with a plan whereby an unprepared Earth could prepare and launch an attack against a space-based foe without it being glaringly obvious months (or years) in advance, feel free to offer it. Until then, you're just spouting bullshit. >> << Have you got shit between your ears? >> People, people- we are talking about ALIENS INVADING THE EARTH. This is not a subject worthy of a flamewar. ###### From: jwalters@toad.net Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Message-ID: <39319aed.3932883@news.toad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <39313922.1080960@news.toad.net> <39314867.F6F@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 19 Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 22:21:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.114.51 X-Complaints-To: abuse@toad.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 959552183 209.150.114.51 (Sun, 28 May 2000 18:16:23 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 18:16:23 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newspeer.ebone.net!news.net.uni-c.dk!howland.erols.net!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7560 On Sun, 28 May 2000 12:25:11 -0400, "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." wrote: >jwalters@toad.net wrote: >> >> The exact details of such a plan would depend on the exact details of >> the alien technology. Here is one fairly simple possibility. Sneak a >> tactical nuke into any one of the thousands of shuttle flights you are >> postulating, and then vaporise the mothership. > >Other than in the movies, who invades a foreign power with only one >ship? The aliens that Dan Bongard was talking about, apparently. In one of the later paragraphs of the post I was repsonding to he makes it sound like he is talking about a single ship, and not a fleet. Then again, they are invading an inhabited planet in another solar system just to steal water, so they can't be that bright. ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 29 May 2000 07:36:08 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8gt6l8$3g1$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <3931029A.78CC@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.73 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7573 Brett Evill writes: >Dan Bongard wrote: >> >> Thank you, Mr. Macho Man. When you can actually come up with a >> plan whereby an unprepared Earth could prepare and launch an >> attack against a space-based foe without it being glaringly >> obvious months (or years) in advance, feel free to offer it. > I still think that the people and their hostility and capability > are a red herring. Earth is a downright inferior source of water > to Europa, no question Some people think there is "no question" that creationism is a better theory than evolution; that doesn't mean they are right. Europa has nobody on it to retrieve and purify the water; Earth does. That makes Earth a superior source of water for anyone with the capacity to easily force humans to do their bidding. -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 29 May 2000 07:58:04 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 90 Message-ID: <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.73 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7575 "Scott A. Taylor" writes: >In article <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com >(Dan Bongard) wrote: >> Sea Wasp writes: >> > The sheer POWER required to cross the stellar distances, and the >> > control of that amount of power that goes with it, makes the effort >> > literally trivial.u >> >> Have you got shit between your ears? Zero effort -- ie, >> "threaten the humans" -- is less effort than "trivial >> effort", ergo "threaten the humans" is the way to go. >> Furthermore you are overlooking the glaringly obvious fact >> that, at the time the spaceship was _built_ and _launched_, >> it had access to the total resources of its home system. >> Upon arriving in the Earth's solar system it has only >> those resources which it brought with it. What would be >> "trivial" in the home system isn't at all trivial at the >> destination. >> >> Sending a spaceship between systems requires nothing more >> than good life-support technology and a great deal of >> patience. Nothing in that suggests, or requires, that >> circling the solar system a few thousand times collecting >> comets will be "trivial". >Dan I *really*, *really* suggest that you go and read some books on >space travel, especially long distance space travel, before you spout >off bullshit like that... > I'm being totally serious. What you have just said, *proves* > that you have absolutely no conception of the distances, times, > and velocities involved in getting from one star system to > another without FTL travel. The only velocities that matter for interstellar travel are (A) the escape velocity of the origin star and (B) the relative velocity of the source and detination systems. So long as A+B < X, where X is the velocity your interstellar vessel is capable of achieving, you will arrive at your destination eventually. The only question, then, is "is the crew of your ship alive when you get there" -- thus, the aforementioned life support technology (preferably some kind of stasis, unless the crew really likes watching the same reruns 9,000,000 times in a row). The amount of time it takes to reach the destination star only matters if the starfaring species actually cares. Any species interested in interstellar exploration and/or colonization is going to have to be comfortable with the notion of spending tens of thousands of years getting from point A to point B. > As for your "get the humans to do it", what if we just refuse? Drop a rock on them and go mine Europa. This assumes you weren't bluffing, of course; if you were then you simply say "well, you called our bluff" and go comet hunting or something. :) > If the governments of the Earth *did* ship up all that water, > they'd permanently wreck the world economy That's a crock of shit. The only way to permanently wreck an economy is to kill everyone. > And if we did do it, you'd just bomb Earth back into the > Stone Age *anyways*, because you sure as shit can't leave > us behind, tracking your every move as you leave... Why not? According to _you_ our economy would be "permanently wrecked", so we'd obviously be incapable of sending a ship after them. Or are you admitting that your claim of a "permanently wrecked economy" was bullshit? Since the economy wouldn't be "permanently wrecked", however, Earth _would_ have the capacity to eventually send somebody after the aliens. The question is: why would we? Do you honestly expect that, generations later (when the economy recovers) the people of Earth would honestly bankrupt themselves _again_ putting together a ship capable of interstellar travel on the off chance that it would eventually be able, untold thousands of years into the future, to track down the aliens and _maybe_ kill them? Yeah, right. Life's not a Heinlein novel, fanboy. Get a grip on reality. -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 29 May 2000 08:26:53 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 124 Message-ID: <8gt9kd$f8f$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <39313922.1080960@news.toad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.73 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7581 jwalters@toad.net writes: >On 28 May 2000 09:32:01 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >>Sea Wasp writes: >>>Dan Bongard wrote: >>>> Sea Wasp writes: >>>>> Dan Bongard wrote: >> >>>>>> What about time required? if the aliens have only a single ship, >>>>>> individually cruising around to each of the various comets >>>>>> scattered throughout the Oort cloud could easily take years >>>>>> per comet (and don't forget the wasted fuel). On the flip >>>>>> side, they could prod humanity into building a few thousand >>>>>> improved space shuttles (or some such thing) and have a >>>>>> few cubic kilometers of purified water shipped into orbit >>>>>> each year while the aliens kick back watching "ALF" re-reruns. >> >>>>> Europa has billions of cubic kilometers of water with no hostiles >>>>> guarding it. >> >>>> Earth has plenty of water with no hostiles guarding it, plus >>>> local labor and a ready-made infrastructure -- assuming that, >>>> by "hostiles", you mean "people capable of fighting back". >> >>> Intelligent beings will steal your technology, assuming they have a >>> technological culture of their own, and LEARN to fight back. >> >>Thank you, Mr. Macho Man. When you can actually come up with a >>plan whereby an unprepared Earth could prepare and launch an >>attack against a space-based foe without it being glaringly >>obvious months (or years) in advance, feel free to offer it. >> >>Until then, you're just spouting bullshit. > The exact details of such a plan would depend on the exact details of > the alien technology. Here is one fairly simple possibility. Sneak a > tactical nuke into any one of the thousands of shuttle flights you are > postulating, and then vaporise the mothership. This assumes that the aliens lack the rudimentary intelligence to inspect the shuttle craft prior to bringing them anywhere near the mother ship. For that matter, it assumes that the mother ship actually comes anywhere near Earth in the first place; there is little reason why it should, prior to when it wanted to make a final cargo pick-up. There is no reason not to simply wrap a thin reflective coating around the cargo and leave it in Earth orbit. > Threaten the humans is hardly a zero effort scenario. You > have to learn at least one human language. You have dozens of years to do that as you approach Earth; we've been broadcasting our language into space for decades. Furthermore, you are assuming that learning a new language is a non-trivial task. Picture an alien race with computers that are, oh, say 500 years more advanced than ours -- it may simply be a matter of asking one of the ship's computers to learn English, then waiting five minutes. :) > You have to learn enough about human psychology that your > threat will get the desired result, and not generate > undesirable side-effects. "We have the ability to kill you, we have the will to kill you if need be, and you have what we want -- so fork it over" doesn't require any psychological insights. Indeed, that particular form of persuasion is well-understood by most Earth-based lifeforms, sentient or no. From an evolutionary perspective there is every reason to believe that _any_ sentient lifeform will be familiar with the notion that those with the power get to make the rules. > You have to learn enough about human politics and power > structures so that you deliver your ultimatum to the > right people. You could simply deliver the ultimatum to everybody and wait a little while to see what the results are. > You have to learn enough about human technology > so that you know what they can or cannot reasonably > build for you. I had presumed that the aliens would provide blueprints for efficient shuttlecraft, actually. However, the fact that we are space-capable is obvious by virtue of the fact that there are artificial constructs winging their way around the system. :) > You have to have some sort of mechanism for making sure > that the humans are doing what you tell them to, and not > plot against you. "We want X"; deliver X into orbit or else". A little while later, examine Earth orbit for signs of X. If it is there, they are doing what you tell them to. If not, they aren't. > Snagging a comet or carving a chunk out of Europa is easier. Snagging a comet or carving a chunk out of Europa uses potentially non-renewable resources (fuel and equipment); threatening Earth requires nothing but a radio and some patience. > Doing the same in your own solar system is easier still. The home solar system doesn't necessarily have much water in accessible locations. It might all be trapped in the atmospheres of a few gas giants and the hydrosphere of the alien homeworld, for example. Oort clouds and iceballs aren't necessarily universal (for that matter, the existance of the Oort cloud isn't even universally accepted as a fact for _our_ solar system). Also note that you're assuming the aliens are bringing the water back to their home system. What if they simply want it for their ship? No matter how efficient it is, any life-support system will suffer some lossage over time. -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 29 May 2000 08:33:31 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 38 Message-ID: <8gta0r$a10$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <39313922.1080960@news.toad.net> <39314867.F6F@erols.com> <39319aed.3932883@news.toa NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.73 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!psiuk-p4!uknet!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7583 jwalters@toad.net writes: >On Sun, 28 May 2000 12:25:11 -0400, "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." > wrote: >>jwalters@toad.net wrote: >>> >>> The exact details of such a plan would depend on the exact details of >>> the alien technology. Here is one fairly simple possibility. Sneak a >>> tactical nuke into any one of the thousands of shuttle flights you are >>> postulating, and then vaporise the mothership. >> >>Other than in the movies, who invades a foreign power with only one >>ship? >The aliens that Dan Bongard was talking about, apparently. In one of >the later paragraphs of the post I was repsonding to he makes it sound >like he is talking about a single ship, and not a fleet. Then again, >they are invading an inhabited planet in another solar system just to >steal water, so they can't be that bright. It is obviously difficult for you to read with your head shoved so far up your ass, so I'll reiterate what I have been discussing: aliens who come to the Earth system for _whatever_ reason (pick one; there are billions of possibilities), need water when they get here, and decide for force _us_ to do their work for them rather than waste limited resources retrieving the water themselves. As I have repeatedly stated, I am not talking about a deliberate, planned invasion from another solar system; I am talking about opportunism on the part of aliens who didn't necessarily have the foggiest idea our system was inhabited until they got here. In summary, if you find yourself completely unable to suppress the urge to bore me with your whining, at least bother to pay attention to what I've been saying first. -- Dan ###### From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 10:17:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.112.132.246 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com 959595440 24.112.132.246 (Mon, 29 May 2000 03:17:20 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 03:17:20 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7598 "Dan Bongard" wrote in message news:8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net... > Get a grip on reality. This coming from someone who seriously talks about people travelling interstellar distances -- STL, no less -- to steal our water?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! -- "It seems that there are two equal and opposite mistakes one can make about Star Trek. One is to find in it a worthy ideology - the other to find in it an ideology worthy of refutation." -- Michael V. Voytinsky ###### From: jwalters@toad.net Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Message-ID: <3932596e.3794278@news.toad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <39313922.1080960@news.toad.net> <39314867.F6F@erols.com> <39319aed.3932883@news.toa <8gta0r$a10$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 66 Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:52:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.114.228 X-Complaints-To: abuse@toad.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 959604414 209.150.114.228 (Mon, 29 May 2000 08:46:54 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 08:46:54 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7557 On 29 May 2000 08:33:31 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >jwalters@toad.net writes: > >>On Sun, 28 May 2000 12:25:11 -0400, "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." >> wrote: > >>>jwalters@toad.net wrote: >>>> >>>> The exact details of such a plan would depend on the exact details of >>>> the alien technology. Here is one fairly simple possibility. Sneak a >>>> tactical nuke into any one of the thousands of shuttle flights you are >>>> postulating, and then vaporise the mothership. >>> >>>Other than in the movies, who invades a foreign power with only one >>>ship? > >>The aliens that Dan Bongard was talking about, apparently. In one of >>the later paragraphs of the post I was repsonding to he makes it sound >>like he is talking about a single ship, and not a fleet. Then again, >>they are invading an inhabited planet in another solar system just to >>steal water, so they can't be that bright. > >It is obviously difficult for you to read with your head shoved so >far up your ass, so I'll reiterate what I have been discussing: OK, now that I know you are reading my posts, try putting half as much effort into answering the substance of the post Richard was responding to as you do into berating me for a single - and admittedly low - throwaway line. What prevents the humans from putting a nuke in one of the shipments? Why are you ignoring all the study and effort that would be needed just to properly coerce humanity? What about the quantum improvements in human spacefaring technology that you are demanding? (I'll get back to that one in a minute.) Just how much water are your aliens going to be stealing? Why do you assume it will take thousands of comets to satisfy your aliens's demands for water, but you also assume it will only take thousands of shuttles when shuttle cargo bays are about the size of busses, and comets are miles in diameter? Just how big are your ships if they can hold that much water? Let's look at the launch technology required. A cubic kilometer of water is 10^15 cm^3 of water. This works out to a mass of 10^12 kg. IIRC, current launch technology costs about $10,000 per kilogram. This works out to $10^16, or $10,000 trillion dollars to launch one cubic kilometer of water. That has got to be dozens of times the gross world product. Now let's assume that humanity could only spend $100 trillion on this project without damaging the world economy to the point that we literally couldn't complete all the launches required. I don't have the exact numbers at hand, but I think this would be equivalent to the entire GNP of the US for about a decade. Even that enormous budget would require us getting launch costs down to the $100 per kilogram range, or 100 times cheaper than the current cost. That would take decades of R&D, or direct technology transfer from the aliens. The aliens would have to wait many years for results, go through all the effort of making themselves a successful colonial power, and force humanity to make quantum improvements in _exactly_ the technology required to sucessfully resist the aliens. Or, they could snag a single comet and get several times as much water with in less time, with less effort, and without creating a new and dangerous enemy. Which makes more sense? ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:04:22 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 16 Message-ID: <39326AD6.CA5AE48E@myriad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 2000 14:56:35 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!korova.insync.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7554 "Michael T. Richter" wrote: > > "Dan Bongard" wrote in message > news:8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net... > > Get a grip on reality. > > This coming from someone who seriously talks about people travelling > interstellar distances -- STL, no less -- to steal our water?! > > HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! > Yeah, really. They're here to steal our _beer_. Kiz ###### Message-ID: <39328655.684B@klg.com> From: Paul Jackson Reply-To: paulj@klg.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <39313922.1080960@news.toad.net> <39314867.F6F@erols.com> <39319aed.3932883@news.toa <8gta0r$a10$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:01:41 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.246.30.33 X-Trace: client 959612126 199.246.30.33 (Mon, 29 May 2000 10:55:26 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 10:55:26 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!peerfeed.news.psi.net!psinr!client!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7587 Dan Bongard wrote: I'll reiterate what I have been discussing: > aliens who come to the Earth system for _whatever_ reason (pick > one; there are billions of possibilities), need water when they > get here, and decide for force _us_ to do their work for them > rather than waste limited resources retrieving the water themselves. I've only occassionally been dipping into this discussion, but I think the whole discussion has essentially gone as follows; 1) Its hard to come up with a reasonable motive for aliens to invade 2) Sure. They're here to steal our water 3) Yeah, right. Theres lots of water that is much more easily available. This makes no sense 4) (Dan Bongard) No, it can be made to make sense. 5) Lots of argument as to why it doesn't make sense. The basic problem is that you're giving the aliens technology such that 1) It is absolutely no risk and no effort to destroy the world while fending off all the efforts of puny humans. 2) This is true even after you give the puny humans access to at least some superior technology (the technology to ship reasonable amounts of water into space), lots of time (years if not decades) and some very interesting knowledge (the puny humans are going to be able to guess at least some of the details of the technology from the blueprints, energy signatures, etc) 3) Your technology allows you to effortlessly detect any and all means the puny humans may have to trap the water. Chemical, nuclear, biological, etc etc etc. 4) At the same time, your technology is such that it is comparatively expensive to just go and grab the water from Europa. 5) You're also postulating a society (which may or may not include OTHER interstellar species) where pissing off a race of primitives has absolutely no risk or downside. No competitors who will use those primitives for their own ends, no PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Aliens) in your society, etc. Is this conceivable? Sure. Is it likely? Nope. Have you articulated technology such that this makes sense? Absolutely not (you've merely asserted that it could exist). ###### From: "Scott A. Taylor" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Organization: We'll let you know when we have some References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <3931029A.78CC@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> <8gt6l8$3g1$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-No-Markup: Yes Message-ID: Lines: 34 Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 15:36:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.210.156.165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rochester.rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyroc.rr.com 959614560 204.210.156.165 (Mon, 29 May 2000 11:36:00 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:36:00 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!24.92.226.137!cyclone.nyroc.rr.com!news.nyroc.rr.com!news.rr.com!typhoon.nyroc.rr.com.POSTED!izzylobo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7582 In article <8gt6l8$3g1$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > Brett Evill writes: > > >Dan Bongard wrote: > >> > >> Thank you, Mr. Macho Man. When you can actually come up with a > >> plan whereby an unprepared Earth could prepare and launch an > >> attack against a space-based foe without it being glaringly > >> obvious months (or years) in advance, feel free to offer it. > > > I still think that the people and their hostility and capability > > are a red herring. Earth is a downright inferior source of water > > to Europa, no question > > Some people think there is "no question" that creationism is a > better theory than evolution; that doesn't mean they are right. > > Europa has nobody on it to retrieve and purify the water; Earth > does. That makes Earth a superior source of water for anyone > with the capacity to easily force humans to do their bidding. ... oh fuck it. You aren't worth the effort. Good bye, ass who has no comprehension of just about anything... *plonk* -- Scott Taylor Freelancer for Hire Have Powerbook, Will Travel ###### From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:34:27 -0400 Organization: Prometheus Corp. Lines: 8 Message-ID: <3932AA23.24CA@erols.com> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> <39326AD6.CA5AE48E@myriad.net> Reply-To: richberg@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: z3ne6Boi3xTHfVvCAuOuYTVd/taYcD9r2W1vsI5A7Zc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 2000 17:35:37 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7592 Frank T. Sronce wrote: > > > Yeah, really. They're here to steal our _beer_. So do they invade Canada or Germany first? (For once France DOESN'T get invaded...) ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> <39326AD6.CA5AE48E@myriad.net> <3932AA23.24CA@erols.com> Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 17:41:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 959622106 204.101.128.170 (Mon, 29 May 2000 13:41:46 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:41:46 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news3.bellglobal.com.MISMATCH!nf1.mgmt.sympatico.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7596 Richard D. Bergstresser Jr. wrote in message news:3932AA23.24CA@erols.com... >> Yeah, really. They're here to steal our _beer_. > So do they invade Canada or Germany first? Germany first, then Canada. (I say this as a German-born Canadian.) ###### From: Scott Barrie Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 15:07:29 -0400 Organization: The University of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Canada Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> <39326AD6.CA5AE48E@myriad.net> <3932AA23.24CA@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: trollsden.physics.uwo.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: panther.uwo.ca 959627449 16828 129.100.24.149 (29 May 2000 19:10:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@julian.uwo.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 2000 19:10:49 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7649 On Mon, 29 May 2000 13:34:27 -0400, "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." wrote: >Frank T. Sronce wrote: >> >> Yeah, really. They're here to steal our _beer_. > >So do they invade Canada or Germany first? As a Canadian, I can only say: Germany. I know our place in the beer hegemony. Scott B. Barrie Physics Grad Student Quest Free RPG -AD&D flavour, but without the annoying parts. And I didn't write it http://trollsden.physics.uwo.ca/quest.htm ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> <39326AD6.CA5AE48E@myriad.net> <3932AA23.24CA@erols.com> Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: <4qzY4.197$A47.28022@198.235.216.4> Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:20:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 959628032 204.101.128.170 (Mon, 29 May 2000 15:20:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 15:20:32 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nf1.mgmt.sympatico.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7650 Scott Barrie wrote in message news:brf5jscpvkqr8s0n06isq5b1vlu8au4vvg@4ax.com... >>> Yeah, really. They're here to steal our _beer_. >> So do they invade Canada or Germany first? > As a Canadian, I can only say: Germany. I know our place > in the beer hegemony. As a German-born Canadian, I concur. But a beer HEGEMONY? What the f___ is that supposed to be? :-) ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:58:56 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3932CC00.22E4E3EA@myriad.net> References: <8gta0r$a10$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <20000529161053.21215.00000520@ng-ft1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 2000 21:51:10 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.netscum.dk.MISMATCH!CensurBot!news.tele.dk!News.Tele.DK!news.tele.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!europa.netcrusader.net!209.113.65.250!korova.insync.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7600 Bokman7757 wrote: > > << It is obviously difficult for you to read with your head shoved so > far up your ass >> > > Once again: This. Is. Not. Worthy. Of. A. Flamewar. They can't understand you when you type so fast... Kiz ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 4 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 29 May 2000 20:10:53 GMT References: <8gta0r$a10$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000529161053.21215.00000520@ng-ft1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7614 << It is obviously difficult for you to read with your head shoved so far up your ass >> Once again: This. Is. Not. Worthy. Of. A. Flamewar. ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 29 May 2000 20:15:45 GMT References: <3932AA23.24CA@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000529161545.21215.00000521@ng-ft1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7615 I still maintain this is not a subject that needs the level of insulting argument that's been established, but maybe a theory on how the whole invading-for-water thing COULD work, possibly theoretically maybe just maybe..... The aliens don't necessarily *need* the water as much as they want control of it. They want a monopoly on the water business, absolute control over its collection and distribution across the cosmos. They've got stations in the Oort cloud, the rings of Saturn and just about anywhere else water can be found- but the other races in the universe are trying to get it from those not-quite-as-civilized worlds where the water barons don't have any presence. The solution? The "water barons" try to have presence everywhere that can be reached. Alternatively, the invaders could be a race other than the water barons, who don't want to pay for it and have decided they'll take ours instead of trying to smuggle it from any of the heavily-guarded reserves. Just in theory.... ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <3932AA23.24CA@erols.com> <20000529161545.21215.00000521@ng-ft1.aol.com> Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 36 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 20:31:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 959632271 204.101.128.170 (Mon, 29 May 2000 16:31:11 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 16:31:11 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!news3.bellglobal.com.MISMATCH!nf1.mgmt.sympatico.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7648 Bokman7757 wrote in message news:20000529161545.21215.00000521@ng-ft1.aol.com... > I still maintain this is not a subject that needs the level of insulting > argument that's been established, but maybe a theory on how the whole > invading-for-water thing COULD work, possibly theoretically maybe just > maybe..... > The aliens don't necessarily *need* the water as much as they want control of > it. They want a monopoly on the water business, absolute control over its > collection and distribution across the cosmos. They've got stations in the Oort > cloud, the rings of Saturn and just about anywhere else water can be found- but > the other races in the universe are trying to get it from those > not-quite-as-civilized worlds where the water barons don't have any presence. > The solution? The "water barons" try to have presence everywhere that can be > reached. > Alternatively, the invaders could be a race other than the water barons, who > don't want to pay for it and have decided they'll take ours instead of trying > to smuggle it from any of the heavily-guarded reserves. > Just in theory.... The problem with this theory is that water is likely to be one of the most common compounds in the universe. It's formed from a trivial interaction of hydrogen and oxygen. Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe bar none... well, aside from Refusenet flames. Oxygen is less common, but still readily available. Taking control of all the water in the universe is a pretty bizarre thing to even contemplate, not to mention actually attempt. ###### Message-ID: <3932DDDB.D8AB57FD@home.com> From: Michael McGuire X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <3932AA23.24CA@erols.com> <20000529161545.21215.00000521@ng-ft1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 58 Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 21:11:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.114.197.209 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.on.home.com 959634707 24.114.197.209 (Mon, 29 May 2000 14:11:47 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 14:11:47 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7651 Rather than invading for water, the aliens could be looking for a compound created only on planets with life. An example of one would be oil. Now obviously, they wouldn't want oil for power but for creating plastics and other such compounds. While it is theoretically possible to make oil in high tech process just taking it from Mother nature will probably be easier unless you have really high technology. Oil is created by life forms so only planets with life would have it. Thus, if you wanted it and you have used up the supply on your native world you would have to look for other sources and couldn't just wander over to your local gas giant. Then again, some biochemist is probably going to prove me wrong... Later Michael McGuire "Michael T. Richter" wrote: > > Bokman7757 wrote in message > news:20000529161545.21215.00000521@ng-ft1.aol.com... > > I still maintain this is not a subject that needs the level of insulting > > argument that's been established, but maybe a theory on how the whole > > invading-for-water thing COULD work, possibly theoretically maybe just > > maybe..... > > > The aliens don't necessarily *need* the water as much as they want control > of > > it. They want a monopoly on the water business, absolute control over its > > collection and distribution across the cosmos. They've got stations in the > Oort > > cloud, the rings of Saturn and just about anywhere else water can be > found- but > > the other races in the universe are trying to get it from those > > not-quite-as-civilized worlds where the water barons don't have any > presence. > > The solution? The "water barons" try to have presence everywhere that can > be > > reached. > > > Alternatively, the invaders could be a race other than the water barons, > who > > don't want to pay for it and have decided they'll take ours instead of > trying > > to smuggle it from any of the heavily-guarded reserves. > > > Just in theory.... > > The problem with this theory is that water is likely to be one of the most > common compounds in the universe. It's formed from a trivial interaction of > hydrogen and oxygen. Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe > bar none... well, aside from Refusenet flames. Oxygen is less common, but > still readily available. Taking control of all the water in the universe is > a pretty bizarre thing to even contemplate, not to mention actually attempt. ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <3932AA23.24CA@erols.com> <20000529161545.21215.00000521@ng-ft1.aol.com> <3932DDDB.D8AB57FD@home.com> Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 30 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 21:27:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 959635661 204.101.128.170 (Mon, 29 May 2000 17:27:41 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 17:27:41 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!nf1.mgmt.sympatico.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7647 Michael McGuire wrote in message news:3932DDDB.D8AB57FD@home.com... > Rather than invading for water, the aliens could be looking > for a compound created only on planets with life. An > example of one would be oil. Now obviously, they wouldn't > want oil for power but for creating plastics and other such > compounds. While it is theoretically possible to make oil > in high tech process just taking it from Mother nature will > probably be easier unless you have really high technology. You mean like the kind of high technology which would permit them to cross interstellar distances STL without all of its highly-complex systems breaking down over 10,000+ years? To cross such a chasm -- STL or otherwise -- would involve nearly-magical technology in the first place. > Oil is created by life forms so only planets with life would > have it. Thus, if you wanted it and you have used up the > supply on your native world you would have to look for other > sources and couldn't just wander over to your local gas > giant. > Then again, some biochemist is probably going to prove me > wrong... Well, they used to think that alcohol was only generated by living organisms. Then they found interstellar clouds of alcohol.... ###### From: Scott Barrie Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 23:38:56 -0400 Organization: The University of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Canada Lines: 27 Message-ID: <1md6jso3900upq7mp8vlvonmkt46ki03c3@4ax.com> References: <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> <39326AD6.CA5AE48E@myriad.net> <3932AA23.24CA@erols.com> <4qzY4.197$A47.28022@198.235.216.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: trollsden.physics.uwo.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: panther.uwo.ca 959658205 16079 129.100.24.149 (30 May 2000 03:43:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@julian.uwo.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 May 2000 03:43:25 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!204.71.34.3!newsfeed.cwix.com!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7636 On Mon, 29 May 2000 19:20:32 GMT, "Michael T. Richter" wrote: >Scott Barrie wrote in message >news:brf5jscpvkqr8s0n06isq5b1vlu8au4vvg@4ax.com... >>>> Yeah, really. They're here to steal our _beer_. > >>> So do they invade Canada or Germany first? > >> As a Canadian, I can only say: Germany. I know our place >> in the beer hegemony. > >As a German-born Canadian, I concur. > >But a beer HEGEMONY? What the f___ is that supposed to be? :-) It's like the wine oligarchy, but its dealings aren't as abstruse. :-) <----- Smiley added to show that I'm not a delusional kook. At least not delusional in that way. Stop thinking I'm delusional in that way. Scott B. Barrie Physics Grad Student Quest Free RPG -AD&D flavour, but without the annoying parts. And I didn't write it http://trollsden.physics.uwo.ca/quest.htm ###### From: "Kevin Brewer" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <3932AA23.24CA@erols.com> <20000529161545.21215.00000521@ng-ft1.aol.com> <3932DDDB.D8AB57FD@home.com> Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 10 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 05:34:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.51.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 959664873 216.154.51.54 (Tue, 30 May 2000 01:34:33 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 01:34:33 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7631 Michael T. Richter wrote in message news:hhBY4.214$A47.33476@198.235.216.4... > Well, they used to think that alcohol was only generated by living > organisms. Then they found interstellar clouds of alcohol.... Maybe those clouds of alcohol were formed by a few beer freighters blowing up...... ;-) ###### From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 01:45:53 -0400 Organization: Prometheus Corp. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <39335591.330D@erols.com> References: <3932AA23.24CA@erols.com> <20000529161545.21215.00000521@ng-ft1.aol.com> <3932DDDB.D8AB57FD@home.com> Reply-To: richberg@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: GdbHUZOLb1dC8/+ENzv5Kfm8vi0mIzKi5j771K2xARA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 May 2000 05:47:07 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7639 Michael T. Richter wrote: > > You mean like the kind of high technology which would permit them to cross > interstellar distances STL without all of its highly-complex systems > breaking down over 10,000+ years? > > To cross such a chasm -- STL or otherwise -- would involve nearly-magical > technology in the first place. Or maybe not. A la Turtledove, it could require a trivial technology that humans just simply have the wrong mindset to see. > Well, they used to think that alcohol was only generated by living > organisms. Then they found interstellar clouds of alcohol.... Alcohol is a pretty broad term though, right? It's kinda like saying "metal". Generic all-purpose "alcohol" doesn't really exist, right? By "oil", I assumed he was referring to raw petroleum. Finding that without life would probably be just slightly easier than finding clouds of raw "DNA"... ###### From: "Richard D. Bergstresser Jr." Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 01:54:08 -0400 Organization: Prometheus Corp. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <39335780.5247@erols.com> References: <3932AA23.24CA@erols.com> <20000529161545.21215.00000521@ng-ft1.aol.com> <3932DDDB.D8AB57FD@home.com> Reply-To: richberg@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: AW5hQomTJysnBtyKQb3XQos3+r2ldZkvlmEnDBa/PV0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 May 2000 05:55:22 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7638 Kevin Brewer wrote: > > Michael T. Richter wrote in message > news:hhBY4.214$A47.33476@198.235.216.4... > > > Well, they used to think that alcohol was only generated by living > > organisms. Then they found interstellar clouds of alcohol.... > > Maybe those clouds of alcohol were formed by a few beer freighters > blowing up...... ;-) Canadian or German? (Probably US actually, registered in Liberia...) ###### From: Walt Smith Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:57:22 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8h0ks8$bnv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3932AA23.24CA@erols.com> <20000529161545.21215.00000521@ng-ft1.aol.com> <3932DDDB.D8AB57FD@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 147.205.85.124 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue May 30 14:57:22 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x52.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 147.205.85.124 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDfirelock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7607 In article <3932DDDB.D8AB57FD@home.com>, Michael McGuire wrote: > Rather than invading for water, the aliens could be looking > for a compound created only on planets with life. An > example of one would be oil. > Oil is created by life forms so only planets with life would > have it. Thus, if you wanted it and you have used up the > supply on your native world you would have to look for other > sources and couldn't just wander over to your local gas > giant. > > Then again, some biochemist is probably going to prove me > wrong... An astronomer might... There's a good bet that Titan, Saturn's largest moon, has seas of liquid hydrocarbons on it. http://www.astronomynow.com/breaking/9908/03titan/ Now, it's possible that these hydrocarbons aren't the right kind, but if anything they're probably *more* useful in their current form than raw petroleum would be. Walt Smith -- Firelock on DALNet Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2000Jun1.015553.12248@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CS Lab, University of Toronto References: <3932AA23.24CA@erols.com> <3932DDDB.D8AB57FD@home.com> Date: 1 Jun 2000 05:55:53 GMT Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7785 In article , Michael T. Richter wrote: >> Rather than invading for water, the aliens could be looking >> for a compound created only on planets with life. An >> example of one would be oil. Now obviously, they wouldn't >> want oil for power but for creating plastics and other such >> compounds. While it is theoretically possible to make oil >> in high tech process just taking it from Mother nature will >> probably be easier unless you have really high technology. > >You mean like the kind of high technology which would permit them to cross >interstellar distances STL without all of its highly-complex systems >breaking down over 10,000+ years? Nope - totally different kind of high technology. Of course, it's natural to assume that aliens who can do something currently way beyond our capabilities could perform similar feats in other areas, but that doesn't necessarily follow - it's conceivable that some alien race could have interstellar capability yet be less advanced then us in some areas, like biochemistry. Whether this is realistic or not is hard to say, as we don't really have a lot of data on how different sapient species develop. ###### Message-ID: <39382B34.BFB731E6@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <39313922.1080960@news.toad.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:46:28 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.218.232 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 959979111 207.71.218.232 (Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:51:51 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:51:51 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:51:51 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.netscum.dk.MISMATCH!CensurBot!news.tele.dk!News.Tele.DK!news.tele.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7884 jwalters@toad.net wrote: > Threaten the humans is hardly a zero effort scenario. You have to > learn at least one human language. You have to learn enough about > human psychology that your threat will get the desired result, and not > generate undesirable side-effects. You have to learn enough about > human politics and power structures so that you deliver your ultimatum > to the right people. You have to learn enough about human technology > so that you know what they can or cannot reasonably build for you. One factor if we're positing STL "sleeper" ships, is that the invaders wouldn't have much of an idea of our capabilities until they come into the system. Even if they have comparatively rapid STL, their information would likely be decades or centuries out of date (especially since except for Early warning radar, radio signals from Earth are undetectable at interstellar distances). So the aliens have to figure out Earth's technological capabilities at a distance, before they commit to an attack. Maybe Earth is a primitive non-threat. Or maybe Earth has secret technology that can destroy them. Or maybe Earth has power books. It's a huge gamble, so the _smart_ thing for aliens to be would be to refuel in the Ooort cloud. But the scenario pretty much demands stupid aliens. So far, the best scenario I'm getting out of this thread is Renaissance level tech aliens who are invading Earth through magic, in order to gain a monopoly on it's beer production. I think I could work with this... -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### Message-ID: <3938302E.12379CBE@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> <39326AD6.CA5AE48E@myriad.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 38 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:07:42 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.218.232 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 959980386 207.71.218.232 (Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:13:06 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:13:06 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:13:06 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7881 Frank T. Sronce wrote: > > "Michael T. Richter" wrote: > > > > This coming from someone who seriously talks about people travelling > > interstellar distances -- STL, no less -- to steal our water?! > > > > HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! > > > > Yeah, really. They're here to steal our _beer_. You know, from disparate posts on this thread, I'm actually getting an idea for an amusing scenario. All one has to do is toss the laws of physics in the waste basket. So, let's posit aliens with Renaissance level technology, who come to earth using technology that's...that is...ahh hell, let's not make any bones about it- magic. They arrive in interstellar longships propelled by Star Dragons, or they chant, wave a crystal rod, and a portal opens. Something easy yet obscure. They're here for our beer of course, and little more. They invade, set up beer gardens, sing ribald songs off key for hours, drop litter, vomit in the streets, and manage to chase the local women a few paces before dropping in a stupor. As well as wrecking any bar that serves them beer from Miller, Schlitz, or Coors... Obviously these guys are major pests, but the national governments _really_ want the secret to FTL travel... -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### Message-ID: <39383572.4E385BC9@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <20000528165045.29739.00000140@ng-fx1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:30:18 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.218.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 959981750 207.71.218.28 (Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:35:50 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:35:50 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:35:51 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7879 Bokman7757 wrote: > Until then, you're just spouting bullshit. >> > > << Have you got shit between your ears? >> > > People, people- we are talking about ALIENS INVADING THE EARTH. This is not a > subject worthy of a flamewar. *sigh* Funny, I didn't _think_ you were new here. ;'/ This is Usenet, and rec.arts.frp.misc. They could be talking about the most trivial and harmless topic, and they would _still_ find an excuse to start a flame war. Worthyness has nothing to do with it. -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 5 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 03 Jun 2000 00:05:07 GMT References: <39383572.4E385BC9@silcom.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000602200507.28695.00001301@ng-ci1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7897 << This is Usenet >> I know, but I don't think I've ever seen a flamewar over something quite this purely academic. ###### Message-ID: <3938569E.40A0@wizvax.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:51:42 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <39383572.4E385BC9@silcom.com> <20000602200507.28695.00001301@ng-ci1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-150.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-150.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 2 Jun 2000 20:51:07 -0400, cm-24-29-52-150.nycap.rr.com Lines: 20 XPident: tuulia X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-150.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7926 Bokman7757 wrote: > > << This is Usenet >> > > I know, but I don't think I've ever seen a flamewar over something quite this > purely academic. As if. This discussion is deep philosophy compared to one of the favorite causes of flamage, Enterprise versus XXXXXXXX, where XXXXXXXXX is some other space vessel from some other movie or series. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: neelk@brick.cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 3 Jun 2000 02:08:11 GMT Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> <39326AD6.CA5AE48E@myriad.net> <3938302E.12379CBE@silcom.com> Reply-To: neelk@alum.mit.edu X-Trace: L2xpLyj0ipcUvegD913z0NNDHkF2fgchBZ1v7cZImAw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jun 2000 02:08:11 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!neelk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7918 Eric Tolle wrote: > > So, let's posit aliens with Renaissance level technology, who come > to earth using technology that's...that is...ahh hell, let's not > make any bones about it- magic. They arrive in interstellar > longships propelled by Star Dragons, or they chant, wave a crystal > rod, and a portal opens. Something easy yet obscure. There was an otherwise-terrible novel by Weis & Hickman -- I forget the title -- that had a nifty scene along these lines. The PCs (er, protagonists) were members of a magically-powered spacefaring civilization, and at one point they were briefly opposed by some nameless high-tech civilization. Some super-duper antimatter-powered cybernetic space dreadnoughts were sent against their wooden space clipper. They basically took the time to exclaim "How quaint!" before using magic to turn off the laws of physics and erase the high-tech space fleet. It was a little throwaway scene that reassured me a lot -- the ancient low-tech interstellar space empire was shown to be capable of flattening the super-tech civilizations, and until that point I was worried that it would have one of those terrible sub-Campbell Earth-is-discovered-and-has-the-strange-power-of-science endings. Neel ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 03 Jun 2000 04:56:17 GMT References: <3938569E.40A0@wizvax.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000603005617.22825.00001356@ng-fw1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7906 << This discussion is deep philosophy compared to one of the favorite causes of flamage, Enterprise versus XXXXXXXX, where XXXXXXXXX is some other space vessel from some other movie or series. >> I haven't come across one of those yet. Most of the flamewars I've seen were over quality of one work, and that at least is *something*- i.e., the work exists, there's room for argument about its quality, etc. ###### Message-ID: <3938A912.968@wizvax.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 02:43:30 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <3938569E.40A0@wizvax.net> <20000603005617.22825.00001356@ng-fw1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-91.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-91.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 3 Jun 2000 02:42:58 -0400, cm-24-29-52-91.nycap.rr.com Lines: 19 XPident: Unknown X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: news Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.mv.net!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-91.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7923 Bokman7757 wrote: > > << This discussion is deep philosophy compared to one of the favorite > causes of flamage, Enterprise versus XXXXXXXX, where XXXXXXXXX is some > other space vessel from some other movie or series. >> > > I haven't come across one of those yet. You're a newbie, then. The X versus Y threads are the oldest and longest-running threads I know of. They resurface periodically in many newsgroups -- the rec.arts.sf.* heirarchy, the rec.arts.anime.* heirarchy (there's a small one going there now), the dnd group (Elminster versus...), etc., etc. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: ed Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 16:40:14 +0100 Organization: Team Rodent Approved: Apparently Message-ID: <239ijso452nkl2gvqluedmdo3l5htl328a@4ax.com> References: <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> <39326AD6.CA5AE48E@myriad.net> <3938302E.12379CBE@silcom.com> Reply-To: edhogg@equus.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: equus.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: equus.demon.co.uk:158.152.255.217 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 960046617 nnrp-11:28900 NO-IDENT equus.demon.co.uk:158.152.255.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!equus.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7921 The noble Eric Tolle spake on the day of Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:07:42 -0700: >Frank T. Sronce wrote: >You know, from disparate posts on this thread, I'm actually >getting an idea for an amusing scenario. All one has to do is toss >the laws of physics in the waste basket. > >So, let's posit aliens with Renaissance level technology, who come >to earth using technology that's...that is...ahh hell, let's not >make any bones about it- magic. They arrive in interstellar >longships propelled by Star Dragons, or they chant, wave a crystal >rod, and a portal opens. Something easy yet obscure. There is a short story by Harry Turtledove "The Road Less Travelled" which has this idea. Civilisations discover interstellar Space Travel about the same time as gun powder. If they don't have it then they are primitives. The Alien ship lands, the musketeers get out ready to conquer Earth, which shows no sign of having these ships, only to encounter us with our military might. oopsie ed -- edhogg@equus.demon.co.uk | Dragons Rescued | _//// http://www.equus.demon.co.uk/ | Maidens Slain | o_/o /// For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, RPGs, | Quests P.O.A. | __\ ///__ Science-Fiction and other stuff | | <*> ###### From: bokman7757@aol.com (Bokman7757) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Lines: 8 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 03 Jun 2000 18:38:48 GMT References: <3938A912.968@wizvax.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000603143848.28940.00001336@ng-fv1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7954 << the rec.arts.sf.* heirarchy, the rec.arts.anime.* heirarchy >> I don't think I've been in those groups yet. The only ones I regularly check are alt.movies.monster (come to think of it, there may have been a few X vs Y threads, I just don't remember 'em), alt.tv.frasier (the occassional discussion on whether Roz or Daphne is more attractive, I don't think that's the same thing), alt.tv.avengers, rec.arts.drwho, and this one. ###### Message-ID: <3939BCA4.5E5CFF6A@silcom.com> From: Eric Tolle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) References: <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> <39326AD6.CA5AE48E@myriad.net> <3938302E.12379CBE@silcom.com> <239ijso452nkl2gvqluedmdo3l5htl328a@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 19:19:19 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.71.218.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@avtel.com X-Trace: newsfeed.avtel.net 960081847 207.71.218.25 (Sat, 03 Jun 2000 18:24:07 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 18:24:07 PDT Organization: None X-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 18:24:07 PDT (newsfeed.avtel.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.avtel.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7934 ed wrote: > > The noble Eric Tolle spake on the day of Fri, 02 > Jun 2000 15:07:42 -0700: > > >Frank T. Sronce wrote: > > >You know, from disparate posts on this thread, I'm actually > >getting an idea for an amusing scenario. All one has to do is toss > >the laws of physics in the waste basket. > > > >So, let's posit aliens with Renaissance level technology, who come > >to earth using technology that's...that is...ahh hell, let's not > >make any bones about it- magic. They arrive in interstellar > There is a short story by Harry Turtledove "The Road Less Travelled" > which has this idea. Civilisations discover interstellar Space Travel That was one of my references, as a matter of fact. My scenario of course is far, far superior to Turtledove's. Mine has _beer_. ;'/ -- Eric Tolle schaduw@silcom.com People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress. Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA, and now everybody who is somebody uses it! ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 18:12:48 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 36 Message-ID: <393BEDA0.83153F23@myriad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> <39326AD6.CA5AE48E@myriad.net> <3938302E.12379CBE@silcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jun 2000 20:05:02 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!esel!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-hog.berkeley.edu!nntp.inc.net!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!newsfeed.yosemite.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7979 Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > > There was an otherwise-terrible novel by Weis & Hickman -- I forget > the title -- that had a nifty scene along these lines. The PCs (er, > protagonists) were members of a magically-powered spacefaring > civilization, and at one point they were briefly opposed by some > nameless high-tech civilization. Some super-duper antimatter-powered > cybernetic space dreadnoughts were sent against their wooden space > clipper. They basically took the time to exclaim "How quaint!" before > using magic to turn off the laws of physics and erase the high-tech > space fleet. > > It was a little throwaway scene that reassured me a lot -- the > ancient low-tech interstellar space empire was shown to be capable > of flattening the super-tech civilizations, and until that point > I was worried that it would have one of those terrible sub-Campbell > Earth-is-discovered-and-has-the-strange-power-of-science endings. > > Neel Heh. In the Hit or Myth comic book version, Foglio added in a Law Machine at one point. The Law Machine was determined to stop the evil mage from achieving ultimate power because that would have left purely technological worlds, such as his, completely vulnerable to him. The others reacted like "You're PURELY technological? What kind of world has machines like YOU?" Another tech/magic crossover I liked had rocket launchers being used against the army of an evil archmage. The first launch inflicted massive casualties and even killed a few of a his mage-underlings. During the second launch, half the missiles fell to the ground harmlessly. The third launch did no damage whatsoever. You don't _get _ to be an evil archmage without learning to adapt fast. :-) Kiz From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 18:12:48 +0000 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 36 Message-ID: <393BEDA0.83153F23@myriad.net> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> <39326AD6.CA5AE48E@myriad.net> <3938302E.12379CBE@silcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jun 2000 20:05:02 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!esel!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-hog.berkeley.edu!nntp.inc.net!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!newsfeed.yosemite.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:7979 Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > > There was an otherwise-terrible novel by Weis & Hickman -- I forget > the title -- that had a nifty scene along these lines. The PCs (er, > protagonists) were members of a magically-powered spacefaring > civilization, and at one point they were briefly opposed by some > nameless high-tech civilization. Some super-duper antimatter-powered > cybernetic space dreadnoughts were sent against their wooden space > clipper. They basically took the time to exclaim "How quaint!" before > using magic to turn off the laws of physics and erase the high-tech > space fleet. > > It was a little throwaway scene that reassured me a lot -- the > ancient low-tech interstellar space empire was shown to be capable > of flattening the super-tech civilizations, and until that point > I was worried that it would have one of those terrible sub-Campbell > Earth-is-discovered-and-has-the-strange-power-of-science endings. > > Neel Heh. In the Hit or Myth comic book version, Foglio added in a Law Machine at one point. The Law Machine was determined to stop the evil mage from achieving ultimate power because that would have left purely technological worlds, such as his, completely vulnerable to him. The others reacted like "You're PURELY technological? What kind of world has machines like YOU?" Another tech/magic crossover I liked had rocket launchers being used against the army of an evil archmage. The first launch inflicted massive casualties and even killed a few of a his mage-underlings. During the second launch, half the missiles fell to the ground harmlessly. The third launch did no damage whatsoever. You don't _get _ to be an evil archmage without learning to adapt fast. :-) Kiz ###### From: "A.F. Simpson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 13:15:17 -0700 Organization: University of Leicester Lines: 22 Message-ID: <393C0A55.730E@le.ac.uk> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <39313922.1080960@news.toad.net> <39382B34.BFB731E6@silcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc42.cmht.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: rook.le.ac.uk 960206889 620531 143.210.176.54 (5 Jun 2000 12:08:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@le.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jun 2000 12:08:09 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!leicester!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:8029 Eric Tolle wrote: > It's a huge gamble, so the _smart_ thing for aliens to be would be > to refuel in the Ooort cloud. But the scenario pretty much demands > stupid aliens. I just wanted to let everyone know that I watched 'V' again on video at the weekend and you have all completely ruined it for me by pointing out what a stupid premise it is. Previously I'd managed to to think about it too hard. Thanks. ;-) > So far, the best scenario I'm getting out of this thread is > Renaissance level tech aliens who are invading Earth through magic, > in order to gain a monopoly on it's beer production. I think I > could work with this... It does have a certain appeal, doesn't it? I think the FTL travel would have to involve giant space whales somehow. > Eric Tolle love Anna ###### From: kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: 7 Jun 2000 07:03:32 GMT Organization: the Satellite of Love Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> <39326AD6.CA5AE48E@myriad.net> <3938302E.12379CBE@silcom.com> <393BEDA0.83153F23@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gecko.roadtoad.net Keywords: Hexapodia as the key insight X-X: http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/documents/x-headers.html User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (FreeBSD) Cache-Post-Path: gecko!kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!prairie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!12.127.17.144!attbt1!ip.att.net!news.fsr.net!kamikaze Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:8188 Mon, 05 Jun 2000 18:12:48 +0000 in <393BEDA0.83153F23@myriad.net>, Frank T. Sronce spake: > Another tech/magic crossover I liked had rocket launchers being used >against the army of an evil archmage. The first launch inflicted massive >casualties and even killed a few of a his mage-underlings. During the >second launch, half the missiles fell to the ground harmlessly. The >third launch did no damage whatsoever. You don't _get _ to be an evil >archmage without learning to adapt fast. :-) In Mary Gentle's _Grunts_ (a heroic fantasy told from the POV of Orks who are semi-possessed by the U.S. Marines), the races of light use the simple Jam Weapon spell to completely stop the grunts' attack with M16s. Thus, the Orks must go on a Heroic Quest to get anti-magic amulets so they can conquer the world. Anyone playing fantasy games should read this book... -- Mark Hughes Disclaimer: I do not have an orbital mind control laser; you are free to post your own opinion, but be prepared to back it up, because I *will* call you on it if I think it's bullshit. That's how the Internet, and life, works. ###### From: John Scott Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Invasions (was Re: The Price of Freedom) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 15:05:49 +0100 Organization: University of Brighton Lines: 16 Message-ID: <070620001505494472%j.f.scott@brighton.ac.uk> References: <1e9z57o.kamkr66agn5cN%matt@black101.demon.co.uk> <6uvh04sxzz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000May23.222549.15038@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <392DE23B.30A0D56F@silcom.com> <2000May26.022600.15161@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <8gl9jh$9bs162@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <8gmie4$15q$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <392EE772.6D2@wizvax.net> <8gn147$hke$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <392F08C3.708A@wizvax.net> <8gqp2h$3f1$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <8gt7uc$m29$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> <39326AD6.CA5AE48E@myriad.net> <3938302E.12379CBE@silcom.com> <393BEDA0.83153F23@myriad.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mowajfs4.admin.bton.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: saturn.bton.ac.uk 960386693 1238 194.83.112.94 (7 Jun 2000 14:04:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@bton.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jun 2000 14:04:53 GMT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.2.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!194.117.157.8!news-hub.cableinet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!newshost.central.susx.ac.uk!news.bton.ac.uk!j.f.scott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:8320 In article , Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote: > In Mary Gentle's _Grunts_ (a heroic fantasy told from the POV of Orks > who are semi-possessed by the U.S. Marines), the races of light use the > simple Jam Weapon spell to completely stop the grunts' attack with M16s. > Thus, the Orks must go on a Heroic Quest to get anti-magic amulets so > they can conquer the world. If I recall, aren't those the anti magic talismans that are rectangular, thin, about an inch long and worn around their necks? Agreed on the book by the way - marvellous fun. John