From: drhode@utmem1.utmem.edu Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: A Unified Demon Theory - Feedback wanted Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:37:57 -0600 Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville Lines: 172 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: bmartin2.utmem.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: penn.dii.utk.edu 955755627 25958 132.192.4.140 (14 Apr 2000 23:40:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@utk.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Apr 2000 23:40:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snf1!news.gtei.net!utk.edu!news!bmartin2.utmem.edu!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3844 I meant to send this in last night, but after indulging in my little rant on moderation, I found I had too much of a headache to keep writing. Anyway, lately I've been trying to put together a campaign using BESM's Demon City Shinjuku sourcebook. What I'm trying to create is something anime-ish and using a DSC-like setting. However, DSC itself is extremely vague about the why's and wherefore's of its demons, and I don't find that very satisfying. So, I've been doing some research, and trying to come up with a background explaining the existence of demons in the setting, as well as the general origins of all 'supernatural' elements. In order to spare you the agony of reading the entire background I've written thus far, I will be presenting this in a condensed version. Here we go... 1. Origin of the Universe. For this, I'm drawing on Cabbalistic and Gnostic ideas. Essentially, 'God' is the summation of all possibilities, i.e., God is Everything. In order to prevent confusion with other concepts of God and Gods, I am going to refer to this entity as the Deity. The Deity has a will, and is capable of affecting any part of Itself as It pleases. One of the things that It seems to enjoy doing is creating Universes within Itself. These Universes are separate from the Divine Unity, and are thus free to develop along their own lines. Another way of saying this is that within a Universe, beings have free will, and things can become imperfect. Our Earth is merely one of many worlds within one such Universe. 2. Origin of Demons. The Deity is rather prone to tinkering with these Universes by sending lesser parts of its being into the Universes to work Its Will. However, by being sent into a Universe, separate from Unity, these sub-Deities also develop free will, and may rebel against their purpose. We shall refer to these sub-Deities as Angels. Angels which have rebelled against their purpose are Demons. Although I am using Christian terminology to describe these beings, both Angels and Demons have played roles as the various gods and spirits of other cultures and spiritual traditions. 3. Spirit and Flesh A Universe is essentially a physical realm. However, beings within a Universe can have Souls or Spirits (I will be using both words interchangeably). Souls are the seat of identify and will. Bereft of a physical form, a Soul remembers who it is (or was) and continues to have goals. However, upon the death of the physical body to which they were attached, most Souls feel an irresistable compulsion to rejoin the Unity. This is a process which might be viewed as 'Ascending to Heaven', in the sense that the soul goes on to rejoin the Deity, but also might be viewed as a death of identity, more like Nirvana, as it involves change from what you are to something else entirely. Some souls comprehend this possibility, and choose to sever their bonds with the Deity, remaining in close proximity to the material world. This is another source of Demons. This is also one area where I need to fill out my universe a bit more. Where do Souls come from? Given what I've already said about this universe, Souls are part of the Deity. But how do they come to be a part of a physical form, such as a human being? Perhaps the potential to have a soul is inherent in the universe, and any physical form of the right complexity (such as a human brain) simply manifests one. Perhaps instead, such a physical form is something like a 'soul vacuum', a natural void which the Deity or some component of a Universe obliges by filling with a soul. What sort of soul origin do you think would make sense, given the context of this setting? What sort of beings would develop souls? Just intelligent, organic entities like humans? What about AIs? How about dogs? 4. Hell and other planes of existence Initially, I had planned on using a very simplistic world, with only a Material plane of existence, where Souls/Spirits are incorporeal, but associated with bodies until the death of the physical form. Recently, I changed my mind and decided to go with a 'levels of existence' idea, where there are higher planes than the physical which are ordinarily difficult, if not impossible to access. This is also a model more true to many spiritual traditions. The basal level is the Material Plane, where Earth and its Universe exist. Souls require physical bodies to directly affect the Material Plane, as it is difficult to affect the material world with Will alone. At the top end of the continuum of planes is the Deity. If you could somehow ascend planes, you would eventually achieve Unity. This is what most free souls do, rising rapidly through all the planes of existence until they are absorbed back into the Deity. (It is possible that there is a 'stopping point' on a plane just short of the Deity, this being a 'real' Heaven in the generally accepted sense of the word, but I don't as yet see a way of making this particular notion important to the overall thrust of the campaign. When most PC's visit Heaven, that's generally the end of the game... ;) Some souls can move more freely through the planes of existence. A human being who can voluntarily move his soul past the material plane can gain great power by doing so, as it is easier, in other planes, to exert your will on existence, and this can have ramifications back on the Material plane. This is the real source of power of anyone who has 'spiritual' talents... the ability to access to some degree the possibilities afforded by higher planes. Long ago, a sort of 'prison plane' was set aside for Demons. Practicioners of many spiritual traditions have the power to bind a Demon into this plane, a power enforced by an ancient pact with Angels, the true nature of which has long been forgotten, although distorted memories still exist in the form of the legend of Solomon's Seal, among others. For convenience of reference, this plane shall be referred to as Hell. 5. More on Demons Technically, everything is a part of the Deity. However, Angels are large enough parts that they can directly affect the Material Plane through sheer Will. This is what allows them to fulfill their purpose, which may be giving messages or instructions to the inhabitants of a world, or even serving as a protector of some sort. They can form material shapes to embody, and through these forms affect the material plane even more powerfully. When these Angels go bad, they become the oldest and most powerful Demons, referred to as First Tier Demons. Such Demons still have the ability to take on material form, and as such, can breed with mere mortals. The offspring of these unions have both great physical power, and great spiritual power. For sake of a label, we shall call these hybrids Nephilim. When a Nephilim passes on, as many do, their Souls have correspondingly great power, and they can become Second Tier Demons. The weakest Demons are the souls of ordinary humans. They go on to become Third Tier Demons. There is great variation in actual demon power within a Tier... for example someone who was a powerful sorceror in life is going to be one of the most powerful Third Tier Demons, and may well be as strong as a weaker Second Tier Demon, simply lacking the impressive pedigree. 6. Possession is Nine Tenths of the Law The major background element in this campaign is going to be the breaking of the pact restraining most Demons to Hell, and their consequent invasion of Earth. I'm still making up my mind as to the degree of completeness of the invasion, and the precise cause. However, I do know the method of invasion. Demons invade through possession. While the First Tier Demons can make their own bodies, all other demons must find host bodies to possess. True possession is not the easiest thing to accomplish, however. I'm going to borrow a Christian concept of possession, and say that while all the really big, nasty demons were confined to Hell, lots of lesser demons still plagued the earth even before the invasion. These demons would try to possess human bodies, but their limited efforts were manifested merely as harmful urges. Essentially, this explains most bad behavior as the result of lesser demons trying to take control of our bodies. However, after the invasion, possession became a lot easier. At least a few First Tier demons made it to Earth, and this has had the effect of fortifying the demonic world view. Demons find it easier to take over hosts completely now, although it's still not an absolute guarantee. Although it is a contest of Demon Will vs Host Will, the Hosts still receive a big 'home turf' advantage. This will make the possibility of demon possession a threat to PC's, but not a guarantee of instant annihilation. There are also degrees of possession, ranging from the 'bad urge' level to a full blown takeover of the body, ala The Exorcist. In this campaign, Possession will have rather dramatic effects, appropriate to an anime-inspired setting. Possession of a body is followed by mutation of the body. In some cases, this is intentional... the demon wants to become a more frightening or destructive physical entity, and through an act of will, the possessed body begins to transform. In other cases, this is unintentional... even if the demon wants his host body to appear normal, it will develop certain stigmata against his will, thus providing a means of detection of demonic possession. It is, of course, possible to drive a demon out of its host, but this is a difficult task even when dealing with lesser demons. Okay, that's about it. And yes, this was the condensed version... Anyway, what do you think? What I'm looking for is a little help on filling out some of the foggier areas of my setting. Suggested sources for adding flavor would also be appreciated, along with any other positive contributions you can come up with. Thank you for taking the time to read this. -David ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: A Unified Demon Theory - Feedback wanted Date: 15 Apr 2000 23:10:25 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 246 Message-ID: <6uog7bnk8u.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 955833025 647 10.0.3.2 (15 Apr 2000 21:10:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Apr 2000 21:10:25 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3862 drhode@utmem1.utmem.edu writes: > very satisfying. So, I've been doing some research, and trying to come up > with a background explaining the existence of demons in the setting, as > well as the general origins of all 'supernatural' elements. Neat. And quite a success, I would say. > that It seems to enjoy doing is creating Universes within Itself. These > Universes are separate from the Divine Unity, and are thus free to develop > along their own lines. Possibly variant to add here: that the Diety produces multiple subparts (which I will call Powers) and that when a sufficient combination of Powers happens (accidentally?) this spawns an Universe (into which that particular group of Powers becomes bound, thus powering it and giving it their/its character). > Another way of saying this is that within a > Universe, beings have free will, and things can become imperfect. Say, driven by the particular combination of Powers that formed that Universe, which together are only a (random?) _part_ of the Diety. > The Deity is rather prone to tinkering with these Universes by sending > lesser parts of its being into the Universes to work Its Will. Or alternatively: lesser/minor Diety-parts that are too weak to form an own Universe get attracted/attached to an newly formed (and so unoccupied) one. They thus enter it and start shaping its internals (but not its basic character). These could provide Angels/Gods, Elementals, Spirits, Souls, ...). > by being sent into a Universe, separate from Unity, these sub-Deities also > develop free will, and may rebel against their purpose. Perhaps replace the word "rebel" (which implies deliberate action against (and why would they?)) with some concept of them going through an learning curve. They are after all new and unexperienced beings. Some go astray in the process. > Although I am using Christian terminology to describe > these beings, both Angels and Demons have played roles as the various gods > and spirits of other cultures and spiritual traditions. And possibly some of the adventurers own cultures? Check out the possibility of the adventurers (or some of them) still worshipping an/multiple Angel(s) (or Demons???) and that finding out (through the neccessary difficulties) the real story. Note that this may for realism include the Players also only discovering the true nature of the Angels/Demons of your world while playing :-). > Souls are part of the Deity. But how do they come to be a part > of a physical form, such as a human being? Perhaps the potential to have > a soul is inherent in the universe, and any physical form of the right > complexity (such as a human brain) simply manifests one. Or what about doing it the other way around: Souls "play" with matter and build themselves bodies as a means of playing (or at least did this in the past when matter was less "solidified"). Of course once in the "game" of body "wearing" they may completely forget their Soul-only existance and think of bodiliy existance as all there exists and so become entrapped. This would add an tragical component. > soul. What sort of soul origin do you think would make sense, given the Small further unification idea: Souls are of the same "stuff" as Powers/Angels/Demons, but to an even lesser size/strength/degree. This reduces the amount of entities and so of rules how they interact. Different levels are just the same relationships with different parameters. Particularly the Human vs Demon fight (possessing and exorcising) could be easier to model this way (strength and familiarity with the particlular body being oposing decisive factors). > context of this setting? What sort of beings would develop souls? Just > intelligent, organic entities like humans? What about AIs? How about > dogs? All organisms could be the products of different strengths of Souls. AIs would more likely be designed as mechanisms by humans, and so completely soul-less. A conflict in making? And who is better off? > Recently, I > changed my mind and decided to go with a 'levels of existence' idea, where > there are higher planes than the physical which are ordinarily difficult, > if not impossible to access. This is also a model more true to many > spiritual traditions. Astral, etc... > exist. Souls require physical bodies to directly affect the Material > Plane, as it is difficult to affect the material world with Will alone. Difficult to affect, but not impossible (and possibly becoming more difficult as originally, as the world solidifies). And what about the level of difficulty being the result of the percentage of beings believing it possible (most Humans don't believe it is, so our wold is very solid). This would make an nice vicious circle of difficulty<->belief. The tragedy commences. Actually bodies in this view are structures designed to amplify interaction. A bit like a buldozer makes a human stronger at digging (insert here image of Souls metaphorically "pulling the leavers" to control a body, the "leavers" being influencing nerve impulses). > At the top end of the continuum of planes is the Deity. If you could > somehow ascend planes, you would eventually achieve Unity. This is what > most free souls do, rising rapidly through all the planes of existence > until they are absorbed back into the Deity. Why such an strict in-live-out scenario? Why not combine the "levels of worlds" idea with the "will to not unite" idea and make it more into an "meandering up and down" sort of behaviour. The direction of a souls wandering coming from that particular souls desires (for example, a buddhist aiming for nirvana would be a soul that after death goes further up). This would give an lot of different soul types (depending on their last few lives levels) to add a lot of spice. > is a 'stopping point' on a plane just short of the Deity, this being a > 'real' Heaven in the generally accepted sense of the word, but I don't as > yet see a way of making this particular notion important to the overall What about the possibility of heaven and hell being different places on the same "half way" plane? Souls would "drift" (in the sense of drifting along) into the places with other Souls of similar make-up. This would concentrate like Souls and in such an more "shapable" world shape the different places to heaven or hell like places. > human being who can voluntarily move his soul past the material plane can > gain great power by doing so, as it is easier, in other planes, to exert > your will on existence, and this can have ramifications back on the > Material plane. Or an alternative version without the need for aquired special powers: define the further up planes as consisting of easier shapable "matter", so everyone there is more "magical" (or is that simply more magic-believing? Here the vicious circle went the other way). People of the everyday plane that visit them magical planes take inspiration with them and then discover that this plane is far more shapeable than most only-here people think. And so they become magicians. > This is the real source of power of anyone who has > 'spiritual' talents... the ability to access to some degree the > possibilities afforded by higher planes. Or the ability to simply get over their mental limitations ("you can only do what you believe you can do"). > Long ago, a sort of 'prison plane' was set aside for Demons. > Practicioners of many spiritual traditions have the power to bind a Demon > into this plane, a power enforced by an ancient pact with Angels, What about hell as an "plane/place of pure sin" which is attractive to bad Angels/Demons (and bad lesser souls), but for an outsider looks like the worst imaginable place, so they think that the inhabitants must have been forced to go there? > the true > nature of which has long been forgotten, although distorted memories still True nature = bad place as they wanted vs. grown story = punnishment? > Technically, everything is a part of the Deity. However, Angels are > large enough parts that they can directly affect the Material Plane > through sheer Will. Actually any Soul can, but Angels are more powerfull at it (and know that they can do it, and are more experienced at doing it!). > The major background element in this campaign is going to be the > breaking of the pact restraining most Demons to Hell, and their consequent > invasion of Earth. I'm still making up my mind as to the degree of > completeness of the invasion, and the precise cause. What about hell getting too crowded and its cramped citizens getting adventurous and so going out to the rest of the world? > still plagued the earth even before the invasion. These demons would try > to possess human bodies, but their limited efforts were manifested merely > as harmful urges. Essentially, this explains most bad behavior as the > result of lesser demons trying to take control of our bodies. Actually the whole Zoroaster derived (and judaism/christianity/islam used) "everyones good, but evil ones turn some bad" thing is a bit stale. What about there being good and bad humans from the same mechanism that made godd/bad Angels: people going astray while still learning. Then add Demons (who mostly are bad, else they would not possess = stealing/annexing others bodies). You may then also add good Spirits who possess (usually just temporary and only if the possesed one agrees) and then use that body to bring messages. The GM could provide hints via an player who is a "medium". > what do you think? What I'm looking for is a little help on filling out > some of the foggier areas of my setting. Suggested sources for adding > flavor would also be appreciated, along with any other positive > contributions you can come up with. I hope my ideas help you. > Thank you for taking the time to read this. Thank you for writing it. It was a nice and stimulating read. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: graf@arduin-delos.com-nospam Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: A Unified Demon Theory - Feedback wanted Organization: none Message-ID: <39044bc4.19211708@news.sonic.net> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:21:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.204.150.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 955930892 209.204.150.113 (Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:21:32 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:21:32 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3933 On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:37:57 -0600, drhode@utmem1.utmem.edu wrote: >1. Origin of the Universe. > > For this, I'm drawing on Cabbalistic and Gnostic ideas. Essentially, >'God' is the summation of all possibilities, i.e., God is Everything. In >order to prevent confusion with other concepts of God and Gods, I am going >to refer to this entity as the Deity. The Deity has a will, and is >capable of affecting any part of Itself as It pleases. One of the things >that It seems to enjoy doing is creating Universes within Itself. These >Universes are separate from the Divine Unity, and are thus free to develop >along their own lines. Another way of saying this is that within a >Universe, beings have free will, and things can become imperfect. Our >Earth is merely one of many worlds within one such Universe. /snip for length/ If you would like some authentic quotes (in medaevel and other period styles) to use in background, see A.O. Lovejoy's /The Great Chain of Being/. Graf ----------------------------------------------------- Graf D.V.B.G.S. Posvalsky of Delos -- "Arduin Lives!" Grimoires IV-VIII at http://www.arduin-delos.com (Unless noted, all spells I mention are from Dragon Tree Spell Book.)