X-Originating-Host: 199.43.48.22 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: FUDGE opinions? Lines: 15 From: tnbagwell Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> Bytes: 591 X-Wren-Trace: eD4bMzIrbCZtaiQ0OnkoMiAhDj46KGogNzs/NnkkImpxaSdmfip4fmZndGli Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:29:32 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.14 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon2 954455084 10.0.2.14 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:24:44 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:24:44 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon2.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2133 I'm looking for a new system, and am once again looking at FUDGE. Can I get some feedback from people who have used it long enough to find any bugs? One thing that has been really irritating is to talk the others into trying a new system, only to run into inconsistencies or oversights that turn it into more of a nuisance than a help. Any opinions on FUDGE? Things to watch out for? Avoid? Include? Thanks, Tom Bagwell * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: Shitfire Howdy Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Message-ID: References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:47:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.107.4.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 954456436 199.107.4.10 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:47:16 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:47:16 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com|news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2229 On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:29:32 -0800, tnbagwell wrote: >I'm looking for a new system, and am once again looking at >FUDGE. Can I get some feedback from people who have used it >long enough to find any bugs? > >One thing that has been really irritating is to talk the others >into trying a new system, only to run into inconsistencies or >oversights that turn it into more of a nuisance than a help. > >Any opinions on FUDGE? Things to watch out for? Avoid? Include? > >Thanks, >Tom Bagwell > >* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * >The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! If you're willing to a do a little work, FUDGE is a great RPG. (It's a great RPG anyway, but most people who don't like it usually don't because there's not a rule for Every Last Thing Under the Sun). I've used it for supers (mmm, fudgey supers), espionage, fantasy, space opera, swashbuckling, etc. I find that most people who don't like it right off the bat, but do like it, like it more when playing in normal human genres, e.g. fantasy, swashbuckling, etc., as opposed to supers, mecha, etc. A personal preference of mine if for the way Damage Capacity used to be handled in the 1993 version, and I still use that in my own games. If your players are coming right from GURPS or Hero (Champions, et al), they may freak a little when you start fudging rules (in my experience these people have a hard time making the leap). I wouldn't think of using anything but FUDGE for my once a month ongoing adventures of the Royal Guards (swashbuckling low-mana fantasy). ###### From: danbuter@aol.comnojunk (Danbuter) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Mar 2000 22:48:47 GMT References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000330174847.07813.00000095@ng-fg1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2037 >I'm looking for a new system, and am once again looking at >FUDGE. Can I get some feedback from people who have used it >long enough to find any bugs? > >One thing that has been really irritating is to talk the others >into trying a new system, only to run into inconsistencies or >oversights that turn it into more of a nuisance than a help. > >Any opinions on FUDGE? Things to watch out for? Avoid? Include? > >Thanks, >Tom Bagwell FUDGE is a really good system, but you will either have to download someone else's version of them in your genre (fantasy, sf, etc) or spend some time writing up your own rules. And you'll have to get some fudge dice. I still think it's worth it. And I'd buy the book if I were you, instead of printing it out (unless you have free printing). DAn..... "True heroics must be carefully planned - and strenuously avoided" Steven Brust in Jhereg ###### From: Peter Knutsen Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:09:04 +0200 Organization: http://www.knutsen.dk Lines: 68 Message-ID: <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: msx-esp-39-10.ppp.cybercity.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.cybercity.dk 954457686 84757 212.242.17.138 (30 Mar 2000 23:08:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cybercity.dk NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 23:08:06 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.cybercity.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1861 tnbagwell wrote: > > I'm looking for a new system, and am once again looking at > FUDGE. Can I get some feedback from people who have used it > long enough to find any bugs? I haven't used it, but I doubt that it contains any bugs except for the one I mention further down. Because the fewer rules a system has, the less chance there is of it having bugs. Similar to the old 64 kilobyte games I used to play on my Amstrad-computer. 95% of the games had zero bugs. I played them for days and days, never found a single bug. But newer, sophisticated, un-simplistic, higher evolved computer- games does contain bugs. That's how it works in the world of computers. If you go for utter simplicity, you can get a product that is guaranteed bugfree. The funny thing is, no one actually plays the old 64 kb games any more. A few nostal- gics will spend 1-2 hours a month playing Fruity Frank, but the reality is that modern and more complex and more sophisticated computergames are just plain better and more interesting, in the eyes of the normal and sane computergame player. > One thing that has been really irritating is to talk the others > into trying a new system, only to run into inconsistencies or > oversights that turn it into more of a nuisance than a help. The only thing in FUDGE that can be called an oversight, and that's stretching it, is that attributes doesn't affect skills. But the whole point of FUDGE is that it requires the GM to make a lot of the decisions that are handled by other rulesets, and this means that the GM has less brain capacity left over for the tasks that a GM can't delegate to objective rule systems. > Any opinions on FUDGE? Things to watch out for? Avoid? Include? I'm a firm opponent of fudge-heavy gaming. And I don't believe you can turn FUDGE into a rules-heavy system (the basic structure cannot carry the load of a lot of additional rules), so I'd never use FUDGE for anything serious. I've thought about using it for a con game someday, but never for anything resembling a campaign. It's difficult to criticize FUDGE because it doesn't really say much, on the rules level which is the part that should be criticized. It might look as if FUDGE tries to avoid being attacked by doing as little as possible, leaving as much as possible to the GM. Including a huge amount of tasks that there is no good reason for delegating to the GM. Apart from the severe lack of actual rules, FUDGE contains a bunch of good roleplaying and GMing advice. So the bottom line is, if you're looking for an excuse to be a fudge GM, go for FUDGE. If you're aware that good rules are a useful tool that improves the roleplaying game experience, do not go for FUDGE, because it contains very few rules, which means it does not support the GM at all. And that's what rules are for. (Contrary to popular belief, good rules do not interfere with creativity) > Thanks, > Tom Bagwell -- Peter Knutsen ###### From: Shitfire Howdy Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Message-ID: References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:38:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.107.4.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 954463136 199.107.4.10 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:38:56 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:38:56 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com|news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2203 You know, Peter, I have to ask why you bother replying to FUDGE threads. It's obvious that you have some kind of personal vendetta against the game. Your snide comments are just trolls and do nothing to contribute to anything positive. If you want to debate, you have to admit your bias first. Are you hoping to "save" people from the horrible experience that FUDGE represents to them? You're like a freaking missionary raging against the sins of [take your pick] and won't brook any viewpoint save your own. Geez, man, just because you have access to Usenet doesn't mean you should use it as your personal soapbox. Give us a break! ###### Message-ID: <38E3F794.B6D3247@fudgerpg.com> From: Ann Dupuis Reply-To: ghostgames@fudgerpg.com Organization: Grey Ghost Press, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <82RE4.122$Pt5.5725@ralph.vnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:52:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.32.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 954463940 24.147.32.236 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:52:20 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:52:20 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1891 Steffan O'Sullivan wrote: > > tnbagwell wrote: > > > >Any opinions on FUDGE? Things to watch out for? Avoid? Include? > > I'd avoid close contact with the author. He's an ornery SOB. Mind you, he's Superb at GMing Fudge adventures. So it's all right to have close enough contact with him to play in one of his Fudge games. :-) -- Best regards, Ann Dupuis (ghostgames@fudgerpg.com) Grey Ghost Press, Inc. (http://www.fudgerpg.com) "Take that, you blasted game!" - Fourth most common use of the Computer Control Cybernetic Enhancement. (From the "Gatecrasher" roleplaying game; http://www.fudgerpg.com/gtcrasher) ###### Message-ID: <38E3F944.549D8522@fudgerpg.com> From: Ann Dupuis Reply-To: ghostgames@fudgerpg.com Organization: Grey Ghost Press, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:59:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.32.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 954464371 24.147.32.236 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:59:31 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:59:31 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1896 Peter Knutsen wrote: > I haven't used it, but I doubt that it contains any bugs except > for the one I mention further down. Peter has never had the honor of being a player in the "Escape: Never Is" Fudge adventure. There are *lots* of bugs in that one. Little, nasty, hard-to-kill bugs that get into everything, and when they link up they can take over your body.... Just ask Chris Aylott of the Space Crime continuum.... He got to play in that one. Wanna play in the sequel, Chris? ;-) > I'm a firm opponent of fudge-heavy gaming. And I don't believe you > can turn FUDGE into a rules-heavy system (the basic structure cannot > carry the load of a lot of additional rules), so I'd never use > FUDGE for anything serious. I've thought about using it for a con > game someday, but never for anything resembling a campaign. Peter has also apparently never read the Gatecrasher game (2nd Edition), as that's definitely a rules-heavy implementation of Fudge. Think "Home Brew System Inspired by Tri-Tac Games converted to Fudge by an author who likes rules and an editor who didn't quite understand all the nuances of Fudge at the time." Great fun, though. And a good example of just how much of an edifice (rules-wise) you can build onto the solid Fudge foundation and not have anything fall apart. -- Best regards, Ann Dupuis (ghostgames@fudgerpg.com) Grey Ghost Press, Inc. (http://www.fudgerpg.com) "Take that, you blasted game!" - Fourth most common use of the Computer Control Cybernetic Enhancement. (From the "Gatecrasher" roleplaying game; http://www.fudgerpg.com/gtcrasher) ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:06:06 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8c0tlu$29o_002@enews.newsguy.com> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <82RE4.122$Pt5.5725@ralph.vnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-469.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2056 In article <82RE4.122$Pt5.5725@ralph.vnet.net>, sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) wrote: >>Any opinions on FUDGE? Things to watch out for? Avoid? Include? > >I'd avoid close contact with the author. He's an ornery SOB. And bitterly hostile to any idea that would go against general practice in gaming, as I can testify. Thank goodness WotC is here to save us all. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### Message-ID: <38E411AE.6939CF41@lig.bellsouth.net> From: Mitch Williams X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <20000330174847.07813.00000095@ng-fg1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:47:10 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.132.116 X-Trace: news1.mia 954470806 216.78.132.116 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:46:46 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:46:46 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.atl!news1.mia.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2013 Danbuter wrote: > [Snip] > And you'll have to get some fudge dice. I found it easier to get my player to accept fudge by using the d100 chart in the fudge rules. After they got use to using the +4 to -4 scale, they started using my fudge dice to make rolls without looking at a table. I actually gave them the option of 3d6, d100, or 4dF. Mitch ###### Message-ID: <38E412E7.3C540C1F@lig.bellsouth.net> From: Mitch Williams X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:52:23 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.132.116 X-Trace: news1.mia 954471119 216.78.132.116 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:51:59 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:51:59 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.atl!news1.mia.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2010 Peter Knutsen wrote: > The only thing in FUDGE that can be called an oversight, and > that's stretching it, is that attributes doesn't affect skills. It's not an oversight. It's just another area where you can adapt the rules to fit the way you want to play. I have devised several ways to link stats and skills you can find them in the FUDGE links. Mitch ###### Message-ID: <38E419E6.88095B41@lig.bellsouth.net> From: Mitch Williams X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:22:14 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.132.116 X-Trace: news1.mia 954472909 216.78.132.116 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:21:49 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:21:49 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.atl!news1.mia.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2008 I have made 2 changes that helped get FUDGE into the view of my players. First I allowed them to use 3d6, d100, or 4dF (using the conversion charts in the rules.) Second, I shifted the range from -4/+4 up by 5 to 1/9 (the target numbers were shifted up by 5 also). It was easier to get them to accept a skill of level 3 than it was to get them to accept a level -2. It was still called "poor" but that didn't bother them like the negative numbers in skills and stats did. They also did not mind the negative "modifiers" generated by the die rolls. This could be because we had just finished a run of the Babylon Project which uses a +5 to -5 die roll mechanic. The first game session that I ran using FUDGE was a combat scenario where I pre-generated all the characters and handed them out. I divided the group into 2 teams, orcs lead by an ogre and lead by a knight. The ogre and the knight were a cut above the others. The orcs had better strength and toughness while the humans had better weapons and weapon skill levels. This was done between the end of an on-going campaign before we started the next one. This is how I got past the "new system" problem. Mitch tnbagwell wrote: > I'm looking for a new system, and am once again looking at > FUDGE. Can I get some feedback from people who have used it > long enough to find any bugs? > > One thing that has been really irritating is to talk the others > into trying a new system, only to run into inconsistencies or > oversights that turn it into more of a nuisance than a help. > > Any opinions on FUDGE? Things to watch out for? Avoid? Include? > > Thanks, > Tom Bagwell > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 31 Mar 2000 03:41:53 GMT References: <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000330224153.01369.00000439@ng-ch1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2023 Peter Knutsen wrote: << I haven't used it, but I doubt that it contains any bugs except for the one I mention further down. >> If you haven't used FUDGE, why did you waste everyone's time with this reply? After all, the poster asked, "Can I get feedback from people WHO HAVE USED IT"? Here I thought most Danes were pretty much fluent in English. (BTW, 'people who have used it' means 'folk som har brugt spillet.') << It's difficult to criticize FUDGE because it doesn't really say much, on the rules level which is the part that should be criticized. It might look as if FUDGE tries to avoid being attacked by doing as little as possible, leaving as much as possible to the GM. Including a huge amount of tasks that there is no good reason for delegating to the GM. >> The published version of FUDGE on my shelf is intended for the GM to sit down and tweak to his tastes. It's really more of a toolbox than a complete RPG, I think... but that's a discussion that raged here a few months back and ended, IMO, without anyone showing me a reason why FUDGE *isn't* just a toolbox.) The end result is a game that can have as little or as much delegated to the GM as the GM wants to delegate to himself. << Apart from the severe lack of actual rules, FUDGE contains a bunch of good roleplaying and GMing advice. >> You *must* be reading a different version of FUDGE than the one I have access to. Mine is chockful both of rules and various systems that can be forged into rules. BTW, my take on FUDGE is that half the fun is using it to come up with your own customized RPG. If you don't have an interest in tinkering, I recommend going with a different game. (I personally have an intense dislike of the game, but a lot of people seem to like GURPS, if you're looking for a generic system.) Steve Miller Writer of Stuff And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right. I've been talking to Jesus all my life. --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me" ###### From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:38:47 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: <38E47227.D5A8F4AA@teleport.com> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <82RE4.122$Pt5.5725@ralph.vnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-713.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1925 Steffan O'Sullivan wrote: > > tnbagwell wrote: > > > >Any opinions on FUDGE? Things to watch out for? Avoid? Include? > > I'd avoid close contact with the author. He's an ornery SOB. I met the author once at a con and asked him to explain FUDGE. He tried to mace me, the bastard. -- Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@teleport.com | cam#9309026 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG "If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today." -- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya ###### From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:41:07 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 16 Message-ID: <38E472B3.78416F52@teleport.com> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-741.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1902 Shitfire Howdy wrote: > > Geez, man, just because you have access to Usenet doesn't mean you > should use it as your personal soapbox. You mean that's not what usenet is for? (sigh) Seven years of life wasted. -- Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@teleport.com | cam#9309026 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG "If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today." -- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya ###### From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:42:17 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <38E472F9.26E5451E@teleport.com> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <38E412E7.3C540C1F@lig.bellsouth.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-764.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1912 Mitch Williams wrote: > > Peter Knutsen wrote: > > > The only thing in FUDGE that can be called an oversight, and > > that's stretching it, is that attributes doesn't affect skills. > > It's not an oversight. It's just another area where you can adapt the > rules to fit the way you want to play. I have devised several ways to > link stats and skills you can find them in the FUDGE links. I find this to be a feature - along with everything else. You have a starting point. An internally consistent and coherent starting point that gives me all kinds of ideas as to where to take the rules for different game types. -- Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@teleport.com | cam#9309026 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG "If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today." -- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <82RE4.122$Pt5.5725@ralph.vnet.net> <38E47227.D5A8F4AA@teleport.com> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 11 Message-ID: <6X0F4.133$Pt5.6276@ralph.vnet.net> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:34:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 954506050 166.82.1.7 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:34:10 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:34:10 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!news.ndh.net!news-fra.pop.de!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1971 Deirdre M. Brooks wrote: >I met the author once at a con and asked him to explain FUDGE. He tried >to mace me, the bastard. Phoo, that wasn't a mace, that was a flail. -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | "Tigers add panache and savoir faire to any sos@vnet.net | social occasion." Plymouth, NH, USA | -Hobbes www.io.com/~sos | ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <38E412E7.3C540C1F@lig.bellsouth.net> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 38 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:47:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 954506868 166.82.1.7 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:47:48 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:47:48 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!peerfeed.news.psi.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1972 Mitch Williams wrote: > >Peter Knutsen wrote: > >> The only thing in FUDGE that can be called an oversight, and >> that's stretching it, is that attributes doesn't affect skills. > >It's not an oversight. Thanks, Mitch. It's not an oversight at all. It is intentional and even mentioned. It may not be to everyone's taste, but that doesn't mean it's an oversight. It's deliberate and addressed. I have always felt that those games in which "attributes affect skills" have it backwards: it should be the other way around. That is, a character's collection of skills should determine his/her attribute levels. There was a game from the early 1980s that did this: Melanda. I always thought it was the coolest character creation system around. (And it had the forerunner of the Ars Magica magic system, but that's another thread ... Melanda was years ahead of its time. Too bad it was slightly flawed enough to not quite work smoothly as a whole.) But when I tried to implement the concept of skills determining attributes in Fudge, it was too rigid a system, so I just left it the way it is: attributes and skills are related by the player's - or GM's - aesthetic sense. Five-point Fudge, the character creation system designed to let people make a Fudge character easily, *does* use this system to a slight degree, BTW. That is, it specifically says to choose your skills first, then you can logically determine what your attribute levels would be. -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | "Tigers add panache and savoir faire to any sos@vnet.net | social occasion." Plymouth, NH, USA | -Hobbes www.io.com/~sos | ###### From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: 31 Mar 2000 07:30 CST Organization: Geochemical and Environmental Research Group - TAMU Lines: 13 Distribution: world Message-ID: <31MAR200007303229@gerg.tamu.edu> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <82RE4.122$Pt5.5725@ralph.vnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gergl1.gerg.tamu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 13:29:04 GMT X-Lunar-Date: 4 days, 10 hrs, 46 mins until the new moon (U.T.) News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50AAXP Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!newshub.nntp.mr.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!gerg.tamu.edu!carl Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1911 In article <82RE4.122$Pt5.5725@ralph.vnet.net>, sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes... }tnbagwell wrote: }> }>Any opinions on FUDGE? Things to watch out for? Avoid? Include? } }I'd avoid close contact with the author. He's an ornery SOB. } }-- } -Steffan O'Sullivan | "He had been 8 years upon a project for extracting I thought he was an ornery SOS. --- Carl ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: Matt Goodman X-Sender: mgood@shell3.shore.net Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? In-Reply-To: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> Message-ID: References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 13 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:38:55 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.244.124.103 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net X-Trace: news.shore.net 954509937 207.244.124.103 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:38:57 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:38:57 EST Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.shore.net!shell3.shore.net!mgood Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2220 We've used FUDGE extensively for Pulp and Traveller, and it seems to work well with our group. It's easy to modify for local taste, too, and there are plenty of examples out there. The core mechanic is very easy to use, and the rest builds around it. Matt > One thing that has been really irritating is to talk the others > into trying a new system, only to run into inconsistencies or > oversights that turn it into more of a nuisance than a help. > > Any opinions on FUDGE? Things to watch out for? Avoid? Include? ###### From: Bill McHale Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: 31 Mar 2000 13:40:42 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, Baltimore County Lines: 114 Message-ID: <8c29sq$c780$1@news.umbc.edu> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: umbc7.umbc.edu X-Trace: news.umbc.edu 954510042 400640 130.85.6.7 (31 Mar 2000 13:40:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@umbc.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 13:40:42 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (IRIX64/6.5 (IP19)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!news.umbc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1894 Peter Knutsen wrote: : tnbagwell wrote: :> :> I'm looking for a new system, and am once again looking at :> FUDGE. Can I get some feedback from people who have used it :> long enough to find any bugs? : I haven't used it, but I doubt that it contains any bugs except : for the one I mention further down. Because the fewer rules a : system has, the less chance there is of it having bugs. Similar : to the old 64 kilobyte games I used to play on my Amstrad-computer. : 95% of the games had zero bugs. I played them for days and days, : never found a single bug. Peter, if you haven't used it, then how do you know much of anything about how the game plays? : But newer, sophisticated, un-simplistic, higher evolved computer- : games does contain bugs. That's how it works in the world of : computers. If you go for utter simplicity, you can get a : product that is guaranteed bugfree. The funny thing is, no : one actually plays the old 64 kb games any more. A few nostal- : gics will spend 1-2 hours a month playing Fruity Frank, but the : reality is that modern and more complex and more sophisticated : computergames are just plain better and more interesting, in : the eyes of the normal and sane computergame player. Perhaps, but a computer game is not necessarily the best analogy when examining a set of role playing rules. A computer game is a game in and of itself while a set of rpg rules is a tool to facilitate the playing of a game. A better example would be the set of utilities that you use with your computer. Take Unix for example; basic utilities like find, grep, ps, ls and a host of others have barely changed in the last 10 to 15 years simply because they do what they were designed to do and any "improvements" risk undermining their core functionality. Sure someone could write a gui to sit on top of them but in the end you don't want to change the simple utilities themselves unless someone detects a bug in them. : The only thing in FUDGE that can be called an oversight, and : that's stretching it, is that attributes doesn't affect skills. That was a choice not an oversight. : But the whole point of FUDGE is that it requires the GM to make : a lot of the decisions that are handled by other rulesets, and : this means that the GM has less brain capacity left over for : the tasks that a GM can't delegate to objective rule systems. What decisions are those? You are always free to extend the rules anyway you see fit. Yes Fudge does not have rules for every possible situation but if you really need something like that then you can create it for yourself. On the other hand, I bet most Fudge GMs can run an adventure with just a set of Fudge Die. :> Any opinions on FUDGE? Things to watch out for? Avoid? Include? : I'm a firm opponent of fudge-heavy gaming. And I don't believe you : can turn FUDGE into a rules-heavy system (the basic structure cannot : carry the load of a lot of additional rules), so I'd never use : FUDGE for anything serious. I've thought about using it for a con : game someday, but never for anything resembling a campaign. The basics of Fudge can be extended as much as you choose and probably in more ways than most "more complete" games. When push comes to shove the core of any RPG engine are the following things: 1. Character Creation. 2. Task Resolution. 3. Combat/Damage. Any rule system regardless of how complex can almost certainly be stripped of most everything else and still be functional as a game. Any game with those basic features can be fleshed out to the tastes of the individual GM and gaming group. : It's difficult to criticize FUDGE because it doesn't really say : much, on the rules level which is the part that should be : criticized. It might look as if FUDGE tries to avoid being : attacked by doing as little as possible, leaving as much as : possible to the GM. Including a huge amount of tasks that : there is no good reason for delegating to the GM. It gives the GMs choices; granted the more choices a GM has the more work they have to do. Still the choices give the GM an incredible amount of power to run the game they want. : Apart from the severe lack of actual rules, FUDGE contains a bunch : of good roleplaying and GMing advice. It contains quite a few suggested rules (and that is the point, as in all rule sets they are suggestions to be accepted or tossed out as you see fit). : So the bottom line is, if you're looking for an excuse to be : a fudge GM, go for FUDGE. If you're aware that good rules are : a useful tool that improves the roleplaying game experience, : do not go for FUDGE, because it contains very few rules, which : means it does not support the GM at all. And that's what rules : are for. (Contrary to popular belief, good rules do not : interfere with creativity) However, too many rules and too rigid an adherence to them (perhaps because of a rules lawyer in the group) can stifle creativity and drama. Fudge has one huge advantage in that it prevents anyone from ever quoting chapter and verse to the GM unless of course its the GM's chapter and verse : ). -- Bill *************************************************************************** Cynics Are People Who Know The Price Of Everything And The Value Of Nothing. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home page - http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~wmchal1 *************************************************************************** ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <82RE4.122$Pt5.5725@ralph.vnet.net> <31MAR200007303229@gerg.tamu.edu> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 13 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:58:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 954511127 166.82.1.7 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:58:47 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:58:47 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-feeder.wcg.net!news-feeder2.wcg.net!WCG!uunet!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1984 Carl Perkins wrote: >}I'd avoid close contact with the author. He's an ornery SOB. >} -Steffan O'Sullivan | "He had been 8 years upon a project for extracting > >I thought he was an ornery SOS. That too, and probably some other letters. -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | "Perhaps there are not as many stupid things sos@vnet.net | said as there are set down in print." Plymouth, NH, USA | -The Goncourt Brothers in 1866, www.io.com/~sos | predicting the eventual rise of usenet ###### From: jeffj@fnord.io.com (Dr Nuncheon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: 31 Mar 2000 15:03:49 GMT Organization: Illuminati Online Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8c2eol$dv2$1@hiram.io.com> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <82RE4.122$Pt5.5725@ralph.vnet.net> <38E47227.D5A8F4AA@teleport.com> <6X0F4.133$Pt5.6276@ralph.vnet.net> X-Trace: hiram.io.com 954515029 14306 199.170.88.12 (31 Mar 2000 15:03:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@io.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!solomon.io.com!hiram.io.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1881 In article <6X0F4.133$Pt5.6276@ralph.vnet.net>, Steffan O'Sullivan wrote: >Deirdre M. Brooks wrote: >>I met the author once at a con and asked him to explain FUDGE. He tried >>to mace me, the bastard. > >Phoo, that wasn't a mace, that was a flail. I guess she flailed to understand your intentions. (I'm going to get mauled for that, aren't I?) J -- "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" Jeff Johnston yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation. jeffj @ io.com ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:39:26 -0500 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 20 Message-ID: <38E4C6AE.74112164@myriad.net> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <82RE4.122$Pt5.5725@ralph.vnet.net> <38E47227.D5A8F4AA@teleport.com> <6X0F4.133$Pt5.6276@ralph.vnet.net> <8c2eol$dv2$1@hiram.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 16:33:11 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1855 Dr Nuncheon wrote: > > In article <6X0F4.133$Pt5.6276@ralph.vnet.net>, > Steffan O'Sullivan wrote: > >Deirdre M. Brooks wrote: > >>I met the author once at a con and asked him to explain FUDGE. He tried > >>to mace me, the bastard. > > > >Phoo, that wasn't a mace, that was a flail. > > I guess she flailed to understand your intentions. > > (I'm going to get mauled for that, aren't I?) > > J Wea-puns are the lowest kind of gaming humor. :-) Kiz ###### X-Originating-Host: 199.43.32.22 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Lines: 4 From: tnbagwell Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <172a207c.db4490da@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <82RE4.122$Pt5.5725@ralph.vnet.net> <38E47227.D5A8F4AA@teleport.com> <6X0F4.133$Pt5.6276@ralph.vnet.net> <8c2eol$dv2$1@hiram.io.com> <38E4C6AE.74112164@myriad.net> Bytes: 193 X-Wren-Trace: eJK3n56HwIrBxoiYltWEnoyNopKWhMaMm5eTmtWIjsbdxYvK0obU0s3B2MXO Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:17:11 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.34 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon2 954522746 10.0.2.34 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:12:26 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:12:26 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon2.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2132 I sword of agree with you on this one. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? From: knight37@gamespotmail.com (Knight37) References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <82RE4.122$Pt5.5725@ralph.vnet.net> <38E47227.D5A8F4AA@teleport.com> <6X0F4.133$Pt5.6276@ralph.vnet.net> <8c2eol$dv2$1@hiram.io.com> <38E4C6AE.74112164@myriad.net> <172a207c.db4490da@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com> Message-ID: <8F08752BBknight37gamespotmail@209.30.0.14> User-Agent: Xnews/Y2K-SE Lines: 7 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:14:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.246.86.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@flash.net X-Trace: news.flash.net 954526457 208.246.86.5 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:14:17 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:14:17 CST Organization: FlashNet Communications, http://www.flash.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!63.208.208.143!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!nntp.flash.net!news.flash.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2114 tnbagwellNOtnSPAM@earthlink.net.invalid (tnbagwell) wrote: >I sword of agree with you on this one. Fudge? I trident once. Knight37 ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:29:38 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 15 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on potato.cit.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <38E412E7.3C540C1F@lig.bellsouth.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.cit.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 954527379 29920 132.236.156.18 (31 Mar 2000 18:29:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 18:29:39 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2183 In article , sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) wrote: > I have always felt that those games in which "attributes affect skills" > have it backwards: it should be the other way around. That is, a > character's collection of skills should determine his/her attribute > levels. There was a game from the early 1980s that did this: Melanda. The reality seems to be more of a feedback loop--it seems to run both ways. Now, how would one model that in a game without going bahooties? -- "Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are dealing with our mental health crisis today." ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? From: knight37@gamespotmail.com (Knight37) References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <38E412E7.3C540C1F@lig.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <8F088F714knight37gamespotmail@209.30.0.14> User-Agent: Xnews/Y2K-SE Lines: 15 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:45:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.246.86.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@flash.net X-Trace: news.flash.net 954528333 208.246.86.5 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:45:33 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:45:33 CST Organization: FlashNet Communications, http://www.flash.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp.flash.net!news.flash.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2111 bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote: >The reality seems to be more of a feedback loop--it seems to run >both ways. Now, how would one model that in a game without >going bahooties? Ah, "GOING BAHOOTIES!" Sounds like a good title for a FUDGE sourcebook. :) That's the thing I love about Usenet. Always a source for wonderful phrases you're not likely to encounter anywhere else. :) Knight37 ###### From: Larry Smith Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:10:08 -0500 Organization: Probable Technology Lines: 15 Message-ID: <38E51430.41C0FED9@smith-house.org> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <82RE4.122$Pt5.5725@ralph.vnet.net> <31MAR200007303229@gerg.tamu.edu> Reply-To: larry@smith-house.org NNTP-Posting-Host: rtl.cygnus.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20smp i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!newscon04.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!sanjose-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!cygnus.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1978 Steffan O'Sullivan wrote: > Carl Perkins wrote: > > Steffan O'Sullivan wrote: > > > I'd avoid close contact with the author. He's an ornery SOB. > >I thought he was an ornery SOS. > That too, and probably some other letters. That describes him to a "T". =) -- .-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-. | "Bill Gates is just a monocle | |__ / | \| |-< | |-< > / | and a Persian Cat away from `----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-' | being one of the bad guys in a My opinions only. | James Bond movie." -- D Miller ###### From: Travis Casey Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 13:05:18 -0500 Organization: Who's Organized? Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <38E412E7.3C540C1F@lig.bellsouth.net> X-Trace: hiram.io.com 954612051 16053 199.44.20.67 (1 Apr 2000 18:00:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@io.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30.1751 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!solomon.io.com!hiram.io.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2341 Steffan O'Sullivan (sos@katie.vnet.net) wrote... > Mitch Williams wrote: > > > >Peter Knutsen wrote: > > > >> The only thing in FUDGE that can be called an oversight, and > >> that's stretching it, is that attributes doesn't affect skills. > > > >It's not an oversight. > > Thanks, Mitch. It's not an oversight at all. It is intentional and > even mentioned. It may not be to everyone's taste, but that doesn't > mean it's an oversight. It's deliberate and addressed. > > I have always felt that those games in which "attributes affect skills" > have it backwards: it should be the other way around. That is, a > character's collection of skills should determine his/her attribute > levels. There was a game from the early 1980s that did this: Melanda. > I always thought it was the coolest character creation system around. > (And it had the forerunner of the Ars Magica magic system, but that's > another thread ... Melanda was years ahead of its time. Too bad it was > slightly flawed enough to not quite work smoothly as a whole.) TSR's Conan game did this as well -- you chose skills, then computed your attributes from them. The "Crimefighters" game that appeared in Dragon #47 did this in reverse -- you randomly rolled the character's attributes, but Mental Aptitude and Agility determined how many Mental and Physical skill points your character got. Thus, it did ensure that characters with lots of Mental skills had a high Mental Attribute, but it worked backward from the way you're suggesting. I like the idea in principle, but dislike how it works (or rather, doesn't work) in combination with certain character concepts -- e.g., the standard fantasy character of the "farmboy with great potential." Logically, such a character should have good attributes, but few skills. Another example is the "gifted apprentice mage" -- such a character should have high magical attributes, but low skills. "Skill+attribute" systems work well in genres where mind-switching may happen -- if Thea the Therrific Thief gets her mind switched into Hank the Happy Hound, she may still *know how* to open locks, but Hank's incredibly low Manual Dexterity may prevent her from actually *doing* it. On the other hand, if her mind were swapped with that of Paul the Purple Prestidigitator, her ability to open locks won't be affected nearly as significantly, since his Manual Dexterity is on par with hers. -- |\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me. |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) ###### From: "Nikolaj Lemche" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 10:24:37 +0200 Organization: Customer at Telia Danmark (http://www.telia.dk/) Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8c700u$rng$1@news101.telia.com> References: <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <20000330224153.01369.00000439@ng-ch1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc80235.stofanet.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news101.telia.com 954663774 28400 212.10.8.235 (2 Apr 2000 08:22:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.dk NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Apr 2000 08:22:54 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer.ebone.net!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!newsfeed101.telia.com!news101.telia.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2306 Steve Miller wrote > Here I thought most Danes were pretty much fluent in English. Most of us (not me) is good enough to avoid small errors, so we do the big fuckups instead. :) > The published version of FUDGE on my shelf is intended for the GM to sit > down and tweak to his tastes. From where can you get the published version? The more I hear about FUDGE the more I want to own it as a book. Nikolaj Lemche ------------------------------------------------ E-mail: nikolaj@mail1.stofanet.dk Homepage: http://members.xoom.com/Kuranov/ ###### From: "Art Wendorf" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <20000330224153.01369.00000439@ng-ch1.aol.com> <8c700u$rng$1@news101.telia.com> Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 13:12:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.28.141.136 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.austin.rr.com 954681169 24.28.141.136 (Sun, 02 Apr 2000 08:12:49 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 08:12:49 CDT Organization: Road Runner - Texas Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!cyclone.rdc-detw.rr.com!news.mw.mediaone.net!cyclone.kc.rr.com!news.kc.rr.com!news-central.rr.com!cyclone.austin.rr.com!news.rr.com!news.austin.rr.com!typhoon.austin.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2393 "Nikolaj Lemche" wrote... > From where can you get the published version? The more I hear about FUDGE > the more I want to own it as a book. > > Nikolaj Lemche Go here: http://www.fudgerpg.com/ -- --- Art Wendorf "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett, Jingo. AWendorf@satx.rr.com | http://home.satx.rr.com/artshideout/ ###### Message-ID: <38E7534B.3783787F@fudgerpg.com> From: Ann Dupuis Reply-To: ghostgames@fudgerpg.com Organization: Grey Ghost Press, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? References: <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <20000330224153.01369.00000439@ng-ch1.aol.com> <8c700u$rng$1@news101.telia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 14:00:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.32.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 954684021 24.147.32.236 (Sun, 02 Apr 2000 10:00:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 10:00:21 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!carrier1.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.icl.net!triton.skycache.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2263 Art Wendorf wrote: > > "Nikolaj Lemche" wrote... > > From where can you get the published version? The more I hear about FUDGE > > the more I want to own it as a book. > > > > Nikolaj Lemche > > Go here: http://www.fudgerpg.com/ Unfortunately, that probably won't help Nikolaj, at least not right away. There are two reasons for this: 1) The Fudge book published in 1995 is now out of print. (I have 3 copies left in the house/office, and I'm hoarding those.) There are still copies available through retailers who haven't sold through yet, but as far as I know distributors are now out of stock. 2) Distribution of Fudge to Europe is spotty at best. Esdevium Games in the UK occasionally imports stuff from Grey Ghost Games; plus some European distributors/retailers purchase it from Alliance Games here in the US and import it that way. Ordering the book online can be expensive (mostly due to shipping and handling to non-US destinations). The Fudge Expanded Edition will go to press in 2 weeks, and ship to distributors in late May. The folks at Esdevium saw the prepress copy at the GAMA Trade Show; hopefully they liked it enough to decide to preorder a bunch, since we have an attractive pre-order special for distributors that should offset the costs of importing the books into the UK/Europe. I'll call them tomorrow to make sure they don't miss the preorder deadline. :-) So while there are still copies of the 1995 book out there, few of them are likely to be in Denmark.... -- Best regards, Ann Dupuis (ghostgames@fudgerpg.com) Grey Ghost Press, Inc. (http://www.fudgerpg.com) "Take that, you blasted game!" - Fourth most common use of the Computer Control Cybernetic Enhancement. (From the "Gatecrasher" roleplaying game; http://www.fudgerpg.com/gtcrasher) ###### From: "Art Wendorf" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <20000330224153.01369.00000439@ng-ch1.aol.com> <8c700u$rng$1@news101.telia.com> <38E7534B.3783787F@fudgerpg.com> Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 14:18:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.28.141.136 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.austin.rr.com 954685133 24.28.141.136 (Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:18:53 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:18:53 CDT Organization: Road Runner - Texas Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone.columbus.rr.com!cyclone-midwest.rr.com!cyclone.kc.rr.com!news.kc.rr.com!news-central.rr.com!cyclone.austin.rr.com!news.rr.com!news.austin.rr.com!typhoon.austin.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2394 "Ann Dupuis" wrote ... > > Unfortunately, that probably won't help Nikolaj, at least not right away. > > There are two reasons for this: > > 1) The Fudge book published in 1995 is now out of print. (I have 3 > copies left in the house/office, and I'm hoarding those.) There are > still copies available through retailers who haven't sold through yet, > but as far as I know distributors are now out of stock. Bummer. He can purchase my copy if he wants it. I don't use it much as I've customized my game and written a word document that covers it all. Nikolai, just drop me a line at my email address and we'll work something out. Like 1/2 cover price + shipping for it. It is in Near-Mint to Mint condition. > The Fudge Expanded Edition will go to press in 2 weeks, and ship to > distributors in late May. What all is in the Expanded Edition that is different than the Standard Edition? :) --- Art Wendorf "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett, Jingo. AWendorf@satx.rr.com | http://home.satx.rr.com/artshideout/ ###### From: "Nikolaj Lemche" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 20:01:24 +0200 Organization: Customer at Telia Danmark (http://www.telia.dk/) Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8c81vv$ovr$1@news101.telia.com> References: <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <20000330224153.01369.00000439@ng-ch1.aol.com> <8c700u$rng$1@news101.telia.com> <38E7534B.3783787F@fudgerpg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc80235.stofanet.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news101.telia.com 954698559 25595 212.10.8.235 (2 Apr 2000 18:02:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.dk NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Apr 2000 18:02:39 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer.ebone.net!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!newsfeed101.telia.com!news101.telia.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2308 Art Wendorf wrote: > Nikolai, just drop me a line at my email address and we'll work something > out. Like 1/2 cover price + shipping for it. It is in Near-Mint to Mint > condition. Thanks for the offer, I'm impressed by the positive treatment you get from Fudge people. But I think that I will wait for the new expanded edition then I might even get some of my friends to buy it too. Nikolaj Lemche ------------------------------------------------ E-mail: nikolaj@mail1.stofanet.dk Homepage: http://members.xoom.com/Kuranov/ ###### From: "Nikolaj Lemche" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 20:04:30 +0200 Organization: Customer at Telia Danmark (http://www.telia.dk/) Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8c81vv$ovr$2@news101.telia.com> References: <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <20000330224153.01369.00000439@ng-ch1.aol.com> <8c700u$rng$1@news101.telia.com> <38E7534B.3783787F@fudgerpg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc80235.stofanet.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news101.telia.com 954698559 25595 212.10.8.235 (2 Apr 2000 18:02:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.dk NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Apr 2000 18:02:39 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer.ebone.net!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!newsfeed101.telia.com!news101.telia.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2309 Ann Dupuis wrote: > The Fudge Expanded Edition will go to press in 2 weeks, and ship to > distributors in late May. Can you give me the ISBN number? I might just be able to get my local retailer to convince Midgard (a big Scandinavian distributor) to order some of those books. Nikolaj Lemche ------------------------------------------------ E-mail: nikolaj@mail1.stofanet.dk Homepage: http://members.xoom.com/Kuranov/ ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Apr 2000 19:17:43 GMT References: <38E7534B.3783787F@fudgerpg.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000402151743.27881.00000625@ng-fq1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2350 Ann Dupuis wrote: >The Fudge Expanded Edition will go to press in 2 weeks, and ship to >distributors in late May. Fantastic: 1. Because I really want to see the Expanded Edition. 2. Because it'll provide a great hook for the extensive review of FUDGE I keep promising to do. Now, if only I can scrape together the money to *buy* the book. ;) Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### Message-ID: <38E7B900.297156DC@fudgerpg.com> From: Ann Dupuis Reply-To: ghostgames@fudgerpg.com Organization: Grey Ghost Press, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? References: <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <20000330224153.01369.00000439@ng-ch1.aol.com> <8c700u$rng$1@news101.telia.com> <38E7534B.3783787F@fudgerpg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:14:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.32.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 954710058 24.147.32.236 (Sun, 02 Apr 2000 17:14:18 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 17:14:18 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2481 Art Wendorf wrote: > What all is in the Expanded Edition that is different than the Standard > Edition? :) The Expanded Edition has 1995's Fudge rules, updated slightly with the Errata and Steffan's "Recent Thoughts on Fudge," in a new layout with new art -- with a few little surprises here and there (a few new characters in the Tips and Examples chapter). The "new" stuff includes 1 page of "What's Fudge?" (fans' statements on what Fudge is to them), 2 pages of "Fudge in a Nutshell," and "Fantasy Fudge," a full implementation of Fudge based on Steffan's 5 Point Fudge and including complete character generation rules and an action resolution rulesset pre-selected for GMs who don't feel like customizing (or who want to see my customization of Fudge as one way of doing Fudge for the fantasy genre). Plus a mini fantasy bestiary, and a mini adventure. -- Best regards, Ann Dupuis (ghostgames@fudgerpg.com) Grey Ghost Press, Inc. (http://www.fudgerpg.com) "Take that, you blasted game!" - Fourth most common use of the Computer Control Cybernetic Enhancement. (From the "Gatecrasher" roleplaying game; http://www.fudgerpg.com/gtcrasher) ###### Message-ID: <38E7B9DD.F709207F@fudgerpg.com> From: Ann Dupuis Reply-To: ghostgames@fudgerpg.com Organization: Grey Ghost Press, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? References: <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <20000330224153.01369.00000439@ng-ch1.aol.com> <8c700u$rng$1@news101.telia.com> <38E7534B.3783787F@fudgerpg.com> <8c81vv$ovr$2@news101.telia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:17:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.32.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 954710279 24.147.32.236 (Sun, 02 Apr 2000 17:17:59 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 17:17:59 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2502 Nikolaj Lemche wrote: > > Ann Dupuis wrote: > > > The Fudge Expanded Edition will go to press in 2 weeks, and ship to > > distributors in late May. > > Can you give me the ISBN number? I might just be able to get my local > retailer to convince Midgard (a big Scandinavian distributor) to order some > of those books. Fudge Expanded Edition, GGG1010, ISBN 1-887154-07-8, $19.95 US. More info at www.fudgerpg.com. -- Best regards, Ann Dupuis (ghostgames@fudgerpg.com) Grey Ghost Press, Inc. (http://www.fudgerpg.com) "Take that, you blasted game!" - Fourth most common use of the Computer Control Cybernetic Enhancement. (From the "Gatecrasher" roleplaying game; http://www.fudgerpg.com/gtcrasher) ###### From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 23:22:24 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <38E838A0.1031A4BD@teleport.com> References: <38E7534B.3783787F@fudgerpg.com> <20000402151743.27881.00000625@ng-fq1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-127.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2494 Justin Bacon wrote: > > Fantastic: > > 1. Because I really want to see the Expanded Edition. > 2. Because it'll provide a great hook for the extensive review of FUDGE I keep > promising to do. > Now, if only I can scrape together the money to *buy* the book. ;) Use your powers of charm to convince Ann to send you a "review copy." :-) -- Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@teleport.com | cam#9309026 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG "If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today." -- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 12:46:48 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 15 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on potato.cit.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <38E412E7.3C540C1F@lig.bellsouth.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.cit.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 954780407 8200 132.236.156.18 (3 Apr 2000 16:46:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Apr 2000 16:46:47 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2722 In article , Travis Casey wrote: > happen -- if Thea the Therrific Thief gets her mind switched into Hank > the Happy Hound, she may still *know how* to open locks, but Hank's > incredibly low Manual Dexterity may prevent her from actually *doing* it. Good idea, poor example. The actual kinesthesiology texts I've consulted tend to conclude that all "fine motor control" tasks have at least as much a cognitive element (possibly moreso) as a physical one. -- "Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are dealing with our mental health crisis today." ###### From: Dave Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:30:34 -0600 Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder Lines: 71 Message-ID: <38E91B84.E56C5EEB@colorado.edu> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E9448C.4F9A@le.ac.uk> Reply-To: david.herrold@colorado.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: rl3-79-181-dhcp.colorado.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: peabody.colorado.edu 954801030 27351 128.138.79.181 (3 Apr 2000 22:30:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@colorado.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Apr 2000 22:30:30 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.colorado.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2508 I thought FUDGE was a cooking game?!?! Wow, I've been in the dark for years now.... "Make the monkey dance, Professor, make the monkey dance." -Dave "A.F. Simpson" wrote: > tnbagwell wrote: > > > > I'm looking for a new system, and am once again looking at > > FUDGE. Can I get some feedback from people who have used it > > long enough to find any bugs? > > Well, we've used FUDGE for an 11th century murder-mystery game, a SF > game and an Indiana Jones-style treasure hunting and Nazis game. I also > have a set of fantasy genre FUDGE rules on my website > (www.moglit.demon.co.uk/rpg). > > The only bit of FUDGE I don't like is the combat system. I can't really > put my finger on exactly why. None of the options presented really > reached out and grabbed me and said "I'm the way to go". That said > there are a couple of perfectly passable combat systems there, and I've > never used an RPG combat system I really did like. But you wanted > negative opinions as well, so there goes. > > Of course, the real advantage of FUDGE is how easy it is to translate a > favourite part of another system into FUDGE. Disliking one bit of it > isn't much of a problem. I get round the combat system thing by not > having much combat in my games :-) I'm going to have to change that > when I start running All Flesh Must Be Eaten in FUDGE. For that I shall > be FUDGING up my own combat system, based on the principle that if you > make it lethally damgerous players will avoid it. > > Another excellent feature of FUDGE is that you can print out extra > copies of bits of the rules you want the players to be able to refer to > in the game (five copies of character generation, etc.) > > > Any opinions on FUDGE? Things to watch out for? Avoid? Include? > > FUDGE rocks, FUDGE rolls, FUDGE rules. Any game that is worth playing > can, and should, be done in FUDGE. FUDGE is The Only Role Playing Game > You Will Ever Need. FUDGE is the messiah of role-playing games, come to > save us from evil games with too many rules. (Only kidding, but I > raised your blood-pressure, didn't I Peter? ;-) > > Don't use FUDGE if: you don't want to spend time and effort customising > the rules; you don't like coarse-grained resolution systems (basic FUDGE > only has seven skill levels); you have a GM or players who prefer the > guidance of a more defined rules system. > > Do use FUDGE if: you like fiddling with rules (warning, you may never > actually get round to playing the game); you like rules-light games; you > fancy a universal system which can be used in various genres. > > The last thing is, I recommend buying FUDGE dice. They are very cool > and if you carry four around in a little pouch, you're ready for gaming > at any time. > > > Thanks, > > Tom Bagwell > > love > Anna ###### From: "A.F. Simpson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 18:25:32 -0700 Organization: University of Leicester Lines: 56 Message-ID: <38E9448C.4F9A@le.ac.uk> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc42.cmht.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: rook.le.ac.uk 954782699 504839 143.210.176.54 (3 Apr 2000 17:24:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@le.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Apr 2000 17:24:59 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!leicester!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2732 tnbagwell wrote: > > I'm looking for a new system, and am once again looking at > FUDGE. Can I get some feedback from people who have used it > long enough to find any bugs? Well, we've used FUDGE for an 11th century murder-mystery game, a SF game and an Indiana Jones-style treasure hunting and Nazis game. I also have a set of fantasy genre FUDGE rules on my website (www.moglit.demon.co.uk/rpg). The only bit of FUDGE I don't like is the combat system. I can't really put my finger on exactly why. None of the options presented really reached out and grabbed me and said "I'm the way to go". That said there are a couple of perfectly passable combat systems there, and I've never used an RPG combat system I really did like. But you wanted negative opinions as well, so there goes. Of course, the real advantage of FUDGE is how easy it is to translate a favourite part of another system into FUDGE. Disliking one bit of it isn't much of a problem. I get round the combat system thing by not having much combat in my games :-) I'm going to have to change that when I start running All Flesh Must Be Eaten in FUDGE. For that I shall be FUDGING up my own combat system, based on the principle that if you make it lethally damgerous players will avoid it. Another excellent feature of FUDGE is that you can print out extra copies of bits of the rules you want the players to be able to refer to in the game (five copies of character generation, etc.) > Any opinions on FUDGE? Things to watch out for? Avoid? Include? FUDGE rocks, FUDGE rolls, FUDGE rules. Any game that is worth playing can, and should, be done in FUDGE. FUDGE is The Only Role Playing Game You Will Ever Need. FUDGE is the messiah of role-playing games, come to save us from evil games with too many rules. (Only kidding, but I raised your blood-pressure, didn't I Peter? ;-) Don't use FUDGE if: you don't want to spend time and effort customising the rules; you don't like coarse-grained resolution systems (basic FUDGE only has seven skill levels); you have a GM or players who prefer the guidance of a more defined rules system. Do use FUDGE if: you like fiddling with rules (warning, you may never actually get round to playing the game); you like rules-light games; you fancy a universal system which can be used in various genres. The last thing is, I recommend buying FUDGE dice. They are very cool and if you carry four around in a little pouch, you're ready for gaming at any time. > Thanks, > Tom Bagwell love Anna ###### From: Mike Harvey Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:44:50 -0700 Organization: Intel Corporation Lines: 100 Message-ID: <38E95722.C77B954D@intel.com> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mharvey.jf.intel.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!uunet!ams.uu.net!nyc.uu.net!chi.uu.net!sea.uu.net!news.or.intel.com!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2784 tnbagwell wrote: > > I'm looking for a new system, and am once again looking at > FUDGE. Can I get some feedback from people who have used it > long enough to find any bugs? > > One thing that has been really irritating is to talk the others > into trying a new system, only to run into inconsistencies or > oversights that turn it into more of a nuisance than a help. > > Any opinions on FUDGE? Things to watch out for? Avoid? Include? Well, I've played quite a bit, and run into occasional problems. I don't feel that Fudge has "bugs" -- the problems I've encountered were all my fault. They are of four types: (1) I didn't do my homework on creating an adventure. In some systems, the rules can be a game in themselves. You can run a whole session of D&D just rolling random encounters and fighting. Fudge does not give you this level of support; you have to make it all up yourself. That means if you don't prepare, you'll be caught with your pants down and won't know what to do. Some people are good at improvisation; if you are not, then make sure you have a plan. (2) I added rules of my own that didn't work. Fudge is VERY malleable, and the temptation to tweak rules or add new ones is very seductive. I encourage you to resist firmly, at least until you are more experienced, and discuss proposed changes on the mailing list before trying them out on your group. Start with the plain vanilla rules -- they really do work for almost any genre, and they work well -- and add things carefully. Talk to your players, and if a new house rule doesn't work, drop it. You can experiment during the game session. (3) I allowed things to become unbalanced. This mostly happened because: (3a) I gave away magic items with skill bonuses. Beware skill bonuses! Even an apparently minor Sword +1 can push a warrior from Great to Superb, making him a LOT tougher. A +1 or +2 bonus to weapon damage is okay, but be careful about bonuses to armor. Try to find more creative magical effects. (3b) I allowed player skills to rise too high, too quickly, mostly by giving out too much experience and then not paying attention to how it was used. Be stingy at first, until you get a feel for things. (4) I made a poor judgement call. Fudge is very loose and puts a lot of responsibility on the GM; where other games have hundreds of precise rules to cover every possible situation, Fudge has only a few general rules and leaves everything else up to GM discretion. When you make a mistake (and you will), don't feel bound by it just because you set a precedent. Instead, explain to the players that you made a mistake, and do better next time. Also, if you don't know how to resolve something, talk to the players and see what they think. Do try to be fair however; I try not to take anything away from a player once I've given it. In the rare instances when I do, I apologize, explain why, and do something else to make up for it. Players tend to be understanding and often make a comment like, "no problem, I was surprised you gave it to me in the first place". Some suggestions for running Fudge successfully: -- Start small with the plain vanilla rules, and only fix what you don't like. -- Ask players how they like the game. Ask them what works and what doesn't. Work with them to make it better and more fun for everyone. -- Be creative in combat. Fudge combat is fairly simple, but leaves lots of room for improvisation. Make use of offensive and defensive combat stances. Grant players a bonus or penalty to skill for creative actions, and allow them to use "noncombat" skills creatively. Try giving them a few "Fudge points" at the beginning of the game and see how it works out. -- Be willing to experiment. That's what Fudge is all about. If something isn't working, try changing it, even in the middle of the game. If you have a favorite mechanic from another game system, try importing that (dice and all) into Fudge. -- Don't pile on a bunch of modifiers to each action. Remember that in Fudge, even a +1 to a skill is a significant bonus, and may represent as many has half a dozen minor factors, none of which would rate a bonus by itself. -- Don't be anal about character creation. Fudge was originally designed to be subjective, and while many of us prefer to use the optional objective system, there is value in being loose. I'll often let players take an extra skill or two if it makes sense, even in the middle of the game; if it makes things more fun and is logical, who cares about a few points. I'll also let players juggle their skills a little after the game starts, if it seems reasonable and not unbalancing. This is especially important in trying a new game out, because nobody really knows what is "good" or otherwise. Plan to spend the first session or two fine-tuning as you become more comfortable. (This applies not only to characters, but to NPCs, combat, and everything else. Again, experimentation and tweaking are what Fudge does best.) -- Do join the Fudge mailing list. Mike ###### From: John R. Cooper Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Message-ID: References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E9448C.4F9A@le.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 05:17:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.30.138.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon2.san.rr.com 954825456 24.30.138.43 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:17:36 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:17:36 PDT Organization: Time Warner Cable of San Diego, CA Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsf1.elp.rr.com!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com|news-west.rr.com!newsf2.san.rr.com!typhoon2.san.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2761 On Mon, 03 Apr 2000 18:25:32 -0700, "A.F. Simpson" wrote: >The last thing is, I recommend buying FUDGE dice. They are very cool >and if you carry four around in a little pouch, you're ready for gaming >at any time. And if you are the kind of gamer that carries a PalmPilot everywhere you go, you don't even need a bag of dice. ;-) DicePro 2.0a: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/9565 Cheers, - John ###### From: "Thomas Bagwell" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E95722.C77B954D@intel.com> Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <7rfG4.11$g35.2964@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 05:53:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.153.193 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 954827587 168.191.153.193 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:53:07 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:53:07 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com|news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2464 "Mike Harvey" wrote in message news:38E95722.C77B954D@intel.com... > tnbagwell wrote: > > > > I'm looking for a new system, and am once again looking at > > FUDGE. Can I get some feedback from people who have used it > > long enough to find any bugs? > > > > One thing that has been really irritating is to talk the others > > into trying a new system, only to run into inconsistencies or > > oversights that turn it into more of a nuisance than a help. > > > > Any opinions on FUDGE? Things to watch out for? Avoid? Include? > > Well, I've played quite a bit, and run into occasional problems. I don't > feel that Fudge has "bugs" -- the problems I've encountered were all my > fault. They are of four types: > > Mike Thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for. Tom B. ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E95722.C77B954D@intel.com> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 14 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 12:37:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 954851827 166.82.1.7 (Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:37:07 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:37:07 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.online.be!uunet!ams.uu.net!nyc.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2575 Mike Harvey wrote: [entire post snipped - look it up!] Wow, great post, thanks, Mike! Folks, them's true words, warnings and all. Go back and read 'em if you have any thoughts about trying to run Fudge for your players. -- Steffan O'Sullivan groo@groo.com ---------------------- http:/www.io.com/~sos ---------------------- "I've got the sixth sense, but I don't have the other five." -Red Skelton ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 12:01:11 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 31 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on potato.cit.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <38E412E7.3C540C1F@lig.bellsouth.net> <38E9B8D9.1758D8D3@daimi.au.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.cit.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 954864070 13877 132.236.156.18 (4 Apr 2000 16:01:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Apr 2000 16:01:10 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!triton.skycache.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2711 In article <38E9B8D9.1758D8D3@daimi.au.dk>, Nis Haller Baggesen wrote: > "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote: > > > In article , Travis Casey > > wrote: > > > > > happen -- if Thea the Therrific Thief gets her mind switched into Hank > > > the Happy Hound, she may still *know how* to open locks, but Hank's > > > incredibly low Manual Dexterity may prevent her from actually *doing* it. > > > > Good idea, poor example. The actual kinesthesiology texts I've consulted > > tend to conclude that all "fine motor control" tasks have at least as much > > a cognitive element (possibly moreso) as a physical one. > > > > Are those studies actually considering the effect of _having no hands_ to do > any manipulation with? Because that would seem to be the case here. But that is a completely different trait from any sort of innate "dexterity". After all, my mouth is less "dextrous" than are my hands for such tasks. Does that mean I need to have a separate "manual dexterity" rating for my mouth, or should there instead be a general penalty for "using your mouth instead of hands regardless of what your body has become"? -- "Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are dealing with our mental health crisis today." ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 12:02:42 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 23 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on potato.cit.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E95722.C77B954D@intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.cit.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 954864162 13877 132.236.156.18 (4 Apr 2000 16:02:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Apr 2000 16:02:42 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2713 In article , sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) wrote: > Mike Harvey wrote: > > [entire post snipped - look it up!] > > Wow, great post, thanks, Mike! > > Folks, them's true words, warnings and all. Go back and read 'em if > you have any thoughts about trying to run Fudge for your players. Waitaminnit?!?!?!?!?! A designer admitting that his system isn't all things to all people????? Is SOS shooting for a Nobel or a Pulitzer? -- "Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are dealing with our mental health crisis today." ###### From: "A.F. Simpson" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 11:23:52 -0700 Organization: University of Leicester Lines: 23 Message-ID: <38EA3338.DE4@le.ac.uk> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E9448C.4F9A@le.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc42.cmht.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: rook.le.ac.uk 954843900 567070 143.210.176.54 (4 Apr 2000 10:25:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@le.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Apr 2000 10:25:00 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!news.freedom2surf.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!leicester!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2727 John R. Cooper wrote: > On Mon, 03 Apr 2000 18:25:32 -0700, "A.F. Simpson" > wrote: > > >The last thing is, I recommend buying FUDGE dice. They are very cool > >and if you carry four around in a little pouch, you're ready for gaming > >at any time. > > And if you are the kind of gamer that carries a PalmPilot > everywhere you go, you don't even need a bag of dice. ;-) > DicePro 2.0a: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/9565 Just wait 'til you get swept into an alternative dimension by a mysterious vortex in the space time continuum and you can't get new batteries. _Then_ where will your fancy-pants high tech get you, eh? (Hey, it happens in films all the time!) > Cheers, > - John love Anna ###### From: Travis Casey Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:20:02 -0400 Organization: Who's Organized? Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <38E412E7.3C540C1F@lig.bellsouth.net> <38E9B8D9.1758D8D3@daimi.au.dk> X-Trace: hiram.io.com 954994531 7393 199.44.20.61 (6 Apr 2000 04:15:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@io.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30.1751 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!solomon.io.com!hiram.io.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3021 Bryan J. Maloney (bjm10@cornell.edu) wrote... > Nis Haller Baggesen wrote: > > "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote: > > > Travis Casey wrote: > > > > happen -- if Thea the Therrific Thief gets her mind switched into Hank > > > > the Happy Hound, she may still *know how* to open locks, but Hank's > > > > incredibly low Manual Dexterity may prevent her from actually *doing* it. > > > > > > Good idea, poor example. The actual kinesthesiology texts I've consulted > > > tend to conclude that all "fine motor control" tasks have at least as much > > > a cognitive element (possibly moreso) as a physical one. > > > > Are those studies actually considering the effect of _having no hands_ to do > > any manipulation with? Because that would seem to be the case here. > > But that is a completely different trait from any sort of innate > "dexterity". After all, my mouth is less "dextrous" than are my hands for > such tasks. Does that mean I need to have a separate "manual dexterity" > rating for my mouth, or should there instead be a general penalty for > "using your mouth instead of hands regardless of what your body has > become"? *Manual* -- as in the Latin, "of the hands". A dog has poor manual dexterity because its "hands" are simply not designed to grasp and manipulate things the way a human's are. (Of course, "manual dexterity" is a humano-centric term -- as I note with the scare-quotes, a dog doesn't technically even *have* hands. To give a more precise game definition, it would be "the effectiveness of the creature's best grasping appendage in performing fine motor tasks that most humans would do with their hands." For some creatures, it might actually apply to tentacles, specialized mouth-parts, or something else. In any case, though, a typical dog's will be much poorer than a typical human's.) At best, those studies simply indicate that the effects of human manual dexterity variation on such tasks should be less than, or at most equal to, the effects of variation in skill. That's not the same as having *no* effect. (E.g., "normal" dexterity is 0, "maximum" is +5, skill ratings range from -3 (no familiarity at all) to +10.) You might have an "oral dexterity" for your mouth, but that probably shouldn't appear in any game that isn't specifically targeted at adults. :-) -- |\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me. |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) ###### From: kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: 6 Apr 2000 06:38:32 GMT Organization: the Satellite of Love Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <38E3F944.549D8522@fudgerpg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu X-Trace: kestrel.csrv.uidaho.edu 955003112 7599 129.101.191.123 (6 Apr 2000 06:38:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uidaho.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Apr 2000 06:38:32 GMT Keywords: Hexapodia as the key insight X-X: http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/documents/x-headers.html User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (FreeBSD) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.nero.net!news.uidaho.edu!kamikaze Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2944 Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:59:31 GMT in <38E3F944.549D8522@fudgerpg.com>, Ann Dupuis spake: >Peter Knutsen wrote: >> I haven't used it, but I doubt that it contains any bugs except >> for the one I mention further down. Actually, I'd consider the grainy levels a bug. At double the precision, using half-levels, the system handles subtle character skill differences much better. >> I'm a firm opponent of fudge-heavy gaming. And I don't believe you >> can turn FUDGE into a rules-heavy system (the basic structure cannot >> carry the load of a lot of additional rules), so I'd never use >> FUDGE for anything serious. I've thought about using it for a con >> game someday, but never for anything resembling a campaign. >Peter has also apparently never read the Gatecrasher game (2nd Edition), >as that's definitely a rules-heavy implementation of Fudge. Think "Home >Brew System Inspired by Tri-Tac Games converted to Fudge by an author >who likes rules and an editor who didn't quite understand all the >nuances of Fudge at the time." >Great fun, though. And a good example of just how much of an edifice >(rules-wise) you can build onto the solid Fudge foundation and not have >anything fall apart. My old FUDGE: Rogue campaign rules were fairly small, but reasonably concrete and non-fudging. My Phobos system came within a gnat's wing of being based on FUDGE instead, and then it would have been rules-heavy, too. Some of the A Magical Medley systems could easily be part of a very hard-rules system. But the swashbuckling house rules from "Across the Dune Sea"... Those are *way* over the top. -- Mark Hughes Disclaimer: I do not have an orbital mind control laser; you are free to post your own opinion, but be prepared to back it up, because I *will* call you on it if I think it's bullshit. That's how the Internet, and life, works. ###### From: kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: 6 Apr 2000 06:40:20 GMT Organization: the Satellite of Love Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <38E412E7.3C540C1F@lig.bellsouth.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu X-Trace: kestrel.csrv.uidaho.edu 955003220 7599 129.101.191.123 (6 Apr 2000 06:40:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uidaho.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Apr 2000 06:40:20 GMT Keywords: Hexapodia as the key insight X-X: http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/documents/x-headers.html User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (FreeBSD) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.nero.net!news.uidaho.edu!kamikaze Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2956 Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:29:38 -0500 in , Bryan J. Maloney spake: >In article , sos@katie.vnet.net >(Steffan O'Sullivan) wrote: >> I have always felt that those games in which "attributes affect skills" >> have it backwards: it should be the other way around. That is, a >> character's collection of skills should determine his/her attribute >> levels. There was a game from the early 1980s that did this: Melanda. >The reality seems to be more of a feedback loop--it seems to run both >ways. Now, how would one model that in a game without going bahooties? Gary Gygax does this in Lejendary Adventures; each skill you take adds a small amount to the controlling stat, and afterwards you calculate your skill bases. Since you only get a handful of skills, and there aren't hundreds of skills, it's not the great hardship it would be in some systems. -- Mark Hughes Disclaimer: I do not have an orbital mind control laser; you are free to post your own opinion, but be prepared to back it up, because I *will* call you on it if I think it's bullshit. That's how the Internet, and life, works. ###### From: kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: 6 Apr 2000 06:45:48 GMT Organization: the Satellite of Love Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <38E7534B.3783787F@fudgerpg.com> <20000402151743.27881.00000625@ng-fq1.aol.com> <38E838A0.1031A4BD@teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu X-Trace: kestrel.csrv.uidaho.edu 955003548 7599 129.101.191.123 (6 Apr 2000 06:45:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uidaho.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Apr 2000 06:45:48 GMT Keywords: Hexapodia as the key insight X-X: http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/documents/x-headers.html User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (FreeBSD) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.nero.net!news.uidaho.edu!kamikaze Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2960 Sun, 02 Apr 2000 23:22:24 -0700 in <38E838A0.1031A4BD@teleport.com>, Deirdre M. Brooks spake: >Justin Bacon wrote: >> Fantastic: >> 1. Because I really want to see the Expanded Edition. >> 2. Because it'll provide a great hook for the extensive review of FUDGE I keep >> promising to do. >> Now, if only I can scrape together the money to *buy* the book. ;) >Use your powers of charm to convince Ann to send you a "review copy." >:-) No kidding! "Me, world-infamous[0] games reviewer, *buy* a game book? I don't think so!", as I often come close to saying. Game reviewing can really spoil you. [0] "What's infamous?" "It's just like famous, but more so!" -- Mark Hughes Disclaimer: I do not have an orbital mind control laser; you are free to post your own opinion, but be prepared to back it up, because I *will* call you on it if I think it's bullshit. That's how the Internet, and life, works. ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 11:32:36 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 34 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on potato.cit.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <38E412E7.3C540C1F@lig.bellsouth.net> <38E9B8D9.1758D8D3@daimi.au.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.cit.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 955035166 18328 132.236.156.18 (6 Apr 2000 15:32:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Apr 2000 15:32:46 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3047 In article , Travis Casey wrote: > *Manual* -- as in the Latin, "of the hands". A dog has poor manual > dexterity because its "hands" are simply not designed to grasp and > manipulate things the way a human's are. When in doubt, become a linguistic obsoletist. We both know that I was speaking of a more general principle. And when tests are designed by actual scientists working in the field of kinesiology, as opposed to rules made up by the seat of the pants by game designers, they have found that the cognitive component completely swamps any potential non-cognitive component. They have also found that there is at least SOME cognitive component in every test they've been able to devise, no matter how simple. > (Of course, "manual dexterity" is a humano-centric term -- as I note with Do you insist that "computer" refers only to a PERSON who does sums? Do you insist that "girl" refers to both female AND male children? > to, the effects of variation in skill. That's not the same as having > *no* effect. (E.g., "normal" dexterity is 0, "maximum" is +5, skill > ratings range from -3 (no familiarity at all) to +10.) If it's completely swamped by cognitive effects, then it's effectively zilch for an un-impaired human at the detail level of most game systems. -- "Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are dealing with our mental health crisis today." ###### From: "Brandon Blackmoor" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:05:42 -0400 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8ciu7i$g80$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <38E412E7.3C540C1F@lig.bellsouth.net> <38E9B8D9.1758D8D3@daimi.au.dk> X-Trace: +SASTqcriw8Mr9/WxdxCW1TU18xSTQekREx6tIJjlHtjwPSkFho47Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Apr 2000 21:05:54 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.3825.400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.3825.400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3104 "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote in message news:bjm10-0604001132360001@potato.cit.cornell.edu... > > They have also found that there is at least SOME cognitive component in > every test they've been able to devise, no matter how simple. I used to live with a cat ("Baby") that could (and would) turn doorknobs. La Chat Nikita, on the other hand, knows what doorknobs do, but she doesn't bother turning them herself: she just bitches at us until we do it for her. I'm not certain which cat was/is *smarter*, but Baby certainly had the better manual dexterity. BBlackmoor@blackgate.net 6.april.2000 ###### From: Travis Casey Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:34:34 -0400 Organization: Who's Organized? Lines: 74 Message-ID: References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <38E412E7.3C540C1F@lig.bellsouth.net> <38E9B8D9.1758D8D3@daimi.au.dk> X-Trace: hiram.io.com 955056607 22268 199.44.20.142 (6 Apr 2000 21:30:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@io.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30.1751 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!solomon.io.com!hiram.io.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3128 Bryan J. Maloney (bjm10@cornell.edu) wrote... > Travis Casey wrote: > > > *Manual* -- as in the Latin, "of the hands". A dog has poor manual > > dexterity because its "hands" are simply not designed to grasp and > > manipulate things the way a human's are. > > When in doubt, become a linguistic obsoletist. We both know that I was > speaking of a more general principle. Sorry -- that was a bit snippy. However, the point still applies -- the example is speaking of a dog, and even in more general terms, a typical dog simply does not have the physical equipment to pick locks as well (I.e., as swiftly and reliably) as a typical human can. > And when tests are designed by > actual scientists working in the field of kinesiology, as opposed to rules > made up by the seat of the pants by game designers, they have found that > the cognitive component completely swamps any potential non-cognitive > component. Ah -- in your first post, you stated merely that they have found the cognitive component to be at least equal to the the physical component. I was basing my further comments on that. Can you point me to a reference to the research? I'm wondering whether what you're describing as the "cognitive component" includes only knowledge/learned skill, or whether there is a "baseline" variation to it among humans (I.e., whether some people are simply better at fine mechanical tasks in general). If the latter is the case, then such variation could be included as part of a "manual dexterity" trait in a realistic system. Of course, it should be noted that the rules created by game designers are often meant to fit how things work in stories of a particular genre, rather than how they work in reality -- in the fantasy genre, thieves (and sometimes mages) often are noted for their exceptional manual dexterity, with the implication that it makes a difference to what they do. Thus, while such rules may not fit reality, that may be because they are not intended to fit reality. (Note that I did not state that all games should use skill+attribute systems -- I simply stated that they can be useful for some types of games.) > They have also found that there is at least SOME cognitive component in > every test they've been able to devise, no matter how simple. > > > (Of course, "manual dexterity" is a humano-centric term -- as I note with > > Do you insist that "computer" refers only to a PERSON who does sums? Do > you insist that "girl" refers to both female AND male children? Do you insist on continuing to beat on a minor comment that has nothing to do with the validity of the argument? If you insist, though, I'll point out that "manual dexterity" meaning "dexterity of the hands" is a current usage, not an obsolete usage as the two examples you give are. > > to, the effects of variation in skill. That's not the same as having > > *no* effect. (E.g., "normal" dexterity is 0, "maximum" is +5, skill > > ratings range from -3 (no familiarity at all) to +10.) > > If it's completely swamped by cognitive effects, then it's effectively > zilch for an un-impaired human at the detail level of most game systems. Yes, it is. Again, in your original post, you did not indicate that research shows that physical differences among humans are swamped by cognitive effects. In that context, my comments make perfect sense. -- |\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me. |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 20:22:28 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 25 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on potato.cit.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <38E412E7.3C540C1F@lig.bellsouth.net> <38E9B8D9.1758D8D3@daimi.au.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.cit.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 955066972 2909 132.236.156.18 (7 Apr 2000 00:22:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Apr 2000 00:22:52 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!triton.skycache.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3151 In article , Travis Casey wrote: > Can you point me to a reference to the research? I'm wondering whether > what you're describing as the "cognitive component" includes only > knowledge/learned skill, or whether there is a "baseline" variation to it > among humans (I.e., whether some people are simply better at fine > mechanical tasks in general). If the latter is the case, then such > variation could be included as part of a "manual dexterity" trait in a > realistic system. I'll start digging for the citation. From what I remember, I got the impression that they were talking specifically about a learned component. > Of course, it should be noted that the rules created by game designers > are often meant to fit how things work in stories of a particular genre, > rather than how they work in reality -- in the fantasy genre, thieves Which is fine--when that's made explicit. Some games claim to be "realistic" (ho ho (TM)). -- "Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are dealing with our mental health crisis today." ###### From: Dave Harper Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 04:12:17 -0400 Organization: Golden Triangle Online Lines: 17 Message-ID: <0ekqes4e0fe89o2nlam8pgjhi385pjjdjm@4ax.com> References: <0d3c3e90.28444fac@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> <38E3DE90.E3C59441@knutsen.dk> <38E412E7.3C540C1F@lig.bellsouth.net> <38E9B8D9.1758D8D3@daimi.au.dk> Reply-To: dharper@golden.net NNTP-Posting-Host: as52-06-113.cas-lon.golden.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: cougar.golden.net 955095155 17132 216.94.43.113 (7 Apr 2000 08:12:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@golden.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Apr 2000 08:12:35 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.bc.net!news.uunet.ca!newsfeed2.golden.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3158 On Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:20:02 -0400, Travis Casey wrote: >You might have an "oral dexterity" for your mouth, but that probably >shouldn't appear in any game that isn't specifically targeted at adults. >:-) Two of my ex-girlfriends failed thier oral dexterity checks once when...oh. Right, this is a family newsgroup, isn't it? Um...when they were...chewing bubblegum and walking at the same time. Yes. That's it. Right. Dave "Cogito ergo non sum puella condimenton": "I think, therefore I am not a Spice Girl." (Seen making the rounds on Usenet) ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 07 Apr 2000 10:25:30 GMT References: <38E838A0.1031A4BD@teleport.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000407062530.27868.00000244@ng-fa1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3123 Deird'Re M. Brooks wrote: >Justin Bacon wrote: >> >> Fantastic: >> >> 1. Because I really want to see the Expanded Edition. >> 2. Because it'll provide a great hook for the extensive review of FUDGE I >keep >> promising to do. >> Now, if only I can scrape together the money to *buy* the book. ;) > >Use your powers of charm to convince Ann to send you a "review copy." >:-) Oh, good idea! Where's that watch? ... Ah, here we go! Ann... Ann.... You are feeling verrrrryyyy sleepy. Your eyelids are heavy. Your breathing is slowing.... Good. Now when I snap my fingers you will open your eyes and send me a review copy of-- Oh, wait. That isn't the power of charm you were talking about, is it? ;) Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### Message-ID: <38EDCAB9.E1E3F008@fudgerpg.com> From: Ann Dupuis Reply-To: ghostgames@fudgerpg.com Organization: Grey Ghost Press, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: FUDGE opinions? References: <38E838A0.1031A4BD@teleport.com> <20000407062530.27868.00000244@ng-fa1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 11:43:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.32.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 955107802 24.147.32.236 (Fri, 07 Apr 2000 07:43:22 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 07:43:22 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3086 Justin Bacon wrote: > Ann... Ann.... You are feeling verrrrryyyy sleepy. Your eyelids are heavy. Your > breathing is slowing.... (this actually happens often when I'm sitting at the computer, especially when I'm looking at things like accounting packages or a technical manual/software tutorial I'm supposed to be working on....) >Good. Now when I snap my fingers you will open your > eyes and send me a review copy of-- > > Oh, wait. That isn't the power of charm you were talking about, is it? ;) Well, it would have worked, if you'd actually gotten to the part where you mention your snailmail address. ;-) (Send me e-mail; we'll work something out.) -- Best regards, Ann Dupuis (ghostgames@fudgerpg.com) Grey Ghost Press, Inc. (http://www.fudgerpg.com) "Take that, you blasted game!" - Fourth most common use of the Computer Control Cybernetic Enhancement. (From the "Gatecrasher" roleplaying game; http://www.fudgerpg.com/gtcrasher)