Reply-To: "rjk2000" From: "rjk2000" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 23:04:13 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.15.97.213 X-Complaints-To: abuse@swbell.net X-Trace: news.swbell.net 953355726 208.15.97.213 (Fri, 17 Mar 2000 23:02:06 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 23:02:06 CST Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!news.pbi.net.MISMATCH!cyclone.pbi.net!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!news.swbell.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:341 I don't know if this has been discussed or not, but here goes. Okay, for those of you who don't know, the folks at TSR/WOTC/Hasbro has come up with the idea to allow anyone to publish games or settings using their new D20 system. There's info at www.wizards.com/dnd or www.opengamingfoundation.org for those who haven't seen it. However, I'm REALLY confused. Someone help me out here. How can a system be really "Open Source" if it does not allow other game publishers to publish character creation rules? Doesn't that strike you as friggin' odd? How can you recreate a new roleplaying game if you can't give rules for character creation? They say that all people have to do is buy their Player's Handbook to use with your game. In short -- D&D still makes money off your game. The article uses a "Wild West" game as an example, but even the interviewee says you have to buy the D&D Player's Handbook to create characters. Am I reading this wrong? Because if I'm not, this is one of the most BOGUS ideas in the world. The only thing you can REALLY do with Open Source is create new campaign supplements for the D&D world or to create modules for it. Imagine if Sengoku wasn't allowed to use character creation rules from Fuzion? Or to use the articles' lovely computer analogy, imagine if Linux required that you not use a certain crucial bit of code? This does not sound like Open Source. Far from it. Please -- somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Sincerely, Nobody Important ###### From: steltekgun@aol.com (StelTekGun) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Mar 2000 09:41:34 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000318044134.08662.00000555@ng-fx1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:549 >How can a system be really "Open Source" if it does not allow other game >publishers to publish character creation rules? Doesn't that strike you >as >friggin' odd? How can you recreate a new roleplaying game if you can't >give >rules for character creation? They say that all people have to do is buy >their Player's Handbook to use with your game. In short -- D&D still makes >money off your game. The article uses a "Wild West" game as an example, >but >even the interviewee says you have to buy the D&D Player's Handbook to >create characters. Am I reading this wrong? Because if I'm not, this is >one of the most BOGUS ideas in the world. The only thing you can REALLY >do >with Open Source is create new campaign supplements for the D&D world or >to >create modules for it. I read that article as well. On the one hand, I kind of admire their business model, i.e., that what's good for everybody is also good for TSR/WOTC/Hasbro/whoever they are now. On the other hand, the prospect of being enslaved to the d20 system is kind of terrifying. Personally, I have come to despise level/class systems, and for that matter the whole AD&D ethos. From the hints on their website, it looks as though D&D3E is going to offer a few innovations, such as skills or the ability to improve stats over time, but it's still just refinements to the same basic model... nothing more than any of us have done through homebrew rules. It's interesting, the extent to which the diversification of roleplaying systems follows the biological model of diversification into niches. If you look at older ecologies such as rainforests, you see an immense variety of different species, all living very close together. You see the same thing in the gaming field... AD&D is not the 'only' fantasy system out there... there are plenty of other fantasy systems which offer more specialized settings and alternate rules. I don't think that this attempt to 'unify' gaming under the all-embracing umbrella of the d20 system is going to work. There are simply too many of us who will get tired of AD&D and turn to something else, or make up a system of our own. And as many of us are aging, turning into professionals with substantial disposable incomes, we'll be able to fuel the growth of alternate systems for a long time to come. Hmm... I seem to have drifted a bit from the original topic. Yes, the D&D definition of 'Open Source' gaming is decidedly, but unsurprisingly, wrong-headed. Nevertheless, it will probably seduce quite a number of smaller publishers to the dark side, and see D&D remaining the dominant part of the industry for decades to come. That really isn't anything new, however, and I don't think that D20/D&D3E will become the 'universal' system that this Ryan Dancey fellow seems to think it will. ###### From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:55:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.112.132.246 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com 953380506 24.112.132.246 (Sat, 18 Mar 2000 03:55:06 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 03:55:06 PST Organization: @Home Network Canada Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!feeder.via.net!24.0.94.134.MISMATCH!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:873 "rjk2000" wrote in message news:i5EA4.5101$34.98910@news.swbell.net... > Imagine if Sengoku wasn't allowed to use character creation rules > from Fuzion? Or to use the articles' lovely computer analogy, > imagine if Linux required that you not use a certain crucial bit > of code? A better analogy with Linux would be imagining if Linux not only required you to not use a certain crucial bit of code, but it also required you to not replace that crucial bit of code with different code. "You can make anything you want from the Linux sources. You're just not allowed to have a task scheduler." > This does not sound like Open Source. Far from it. Please -- > somebody correct me if I'm wrong. It's about as open as Rush Limbaugh's mind. ###### From: larris@usa.net (Larris Magpie) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Organization: None. I work alone. Reply-To: larris@usa.net Message-ID: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:09:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.67.142.81 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@online.no X-Trace: news1.online.no 953381777 130.67.142.81 (Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:16:17 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:16:17 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed1.online.no!newsfeed.online.no!news1.online.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:823 "rjk2000" wrote: >This does not sound like Open Source. Far from it. Please -- somebody >correct me if I'm wrong. You're quite correct, that's why it's not called Open Source Gaming. It's "Open Gaming" - certainly drawing on the same connotations, and using a business model not that dissimilar from MS Internet Explorer, and probably not designed to do anything but keep the RPG section at Wizards (and the hobby) alive. I find the idea kind of neat (a lot better than restricting _all_ intellectual property created using the rules, for instance), and I seriously wish that more companies would do it - after all, who says competition just died? ;) -- Larris "If darkness is merely the absence of light, Like evil, they say, is the absence of love; Why is it, then, that the gloom of the night Feels more tangible and opaque than rays from above?" ###### Message-ID: <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> From: Ann Dupuis Reply-To: ghostgames@fudgerpg.com Organization: Grey Ghost Press, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 53 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 15:13:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.32.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 953392410 24.147.32.236 (Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:13:30 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:13:30 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:119 Larris Magpie wrote: > I find the idea kind of neat (a lot better than restricting _all_ > intellectual property created using the rules, for instance), and I > seriously wish that more companies would do it - after all, who says > competition just died? ;) It's been said on other forums discussing the true proposed "openness" of the D20 system, but I'll say it here, too: The Fudge rpg system has been "open" for the 7+ years it's been in existence. The core rules come with a free and automatic license to modify them as you see fit, and publish those modifications on the web or in other media, as long as you don't *sell* your derivative work. For commercial distribution of Fudge derivatives, you need to apply for a commercial license -- which is "free" in the sense that the only fee charged is 2 copies of the published work, and "automatic" in the sense that Steffan's not likely to deny the license except under extreme circumstances (I forget the example he used, but it involved Mickey Mouse, which is a trademark owned by a litigious company, and something that was in flagrant violation of most communities' obscenity laws). There's no approval process once the license has been granted. (BTW, Steffan hasn't denied a license yet.... and there *are* some commercial fudge licenses floating around out there. Er, that wasn't a challenge.... please don't flood poor Steffan with requests for licenses for material that's obviously illegal to publish!) You can see the Fudge commercial license at http://www.io.com/~sos/rpg/fudlic.html Oh, and to clarify something the originator of this thread questioned: The Open Gaming License proposed by Ryan Dancey (and found at http://www.opengamingfoundation.org) does allow you to include the character creation rules in your derivative product. Just *not* if you want to use the D20 trademark, use of which is covered under the separate license, which specifically excludes the use of character creation and advancement rules in a licensed product bearing the D20 trademark. In other words, you can include the D20 character creation info if you don't call it D20. -- Best regards, Ann Dupuis (ghostgames@fudgerpg.com) Grey Ghost Press, Inc. (http://www.fudgerpg.com) "Just what CAN you do with ten million Magic Points?" - Anonymous Bosch. (From the "Gatecrasher" roleplaying game; http://www.fudgerpg.com/gtcrasher) ###### From: "m@ng" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:48:55 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-867.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:908 On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 23:04:13 -0600, in article "rjk2000" wrote: >Okay, for those of you who don't know, the folks at TSR/WOTC/Hasbro has come >up with the idea to allow anyone to publish games or settings using their >new D20 system. There's info at www.wizards.com/dnd or >www.opengamingfoundation.org for those who haven't seen it. However, I'm >REALLY confused. Someone help me out here. There are two different licenses there, the Open Gaming License and the D20 Trademark License. They're different things. The OGL seems pretty open. Basically you give everybody the right to copy, modify, and distribute whatever you've placed under the OGL as long as they follow the restrictions in the OGL. Under this you could publish a complete RPG, so long as it doesn't violate any other copyrights, i.e. you can't rip off your favorite game and claim to be the original author with rights to publish it under the OGL. The D20 Trademark License is the way in which you can use the WotC "D20" trademark without much hassle. Just don't put in character creation or advancement rules, i.e. make having the PHB unneccesary, and you too can get Brand Name Recognition(tm) for your publication by using the D20(tm) logo. As long as you don't take sales out of their cash cow (the core rulebooks) you can freely make compatible supplements, openly label them as such, and even sell them for profit. The OGL is a general license and the D20 a specific license for use of a trademark. You could publish something using one, the other or both. Given the usual "hunt you down, enslave your family, burn your house and sow the ground with salt" approach to trademark enfringement, the D20 license actually is pretty open. I suppose it's as if SJG were to allow anyone to publish GURPS supplements using the GURPS trademark, which AFAIK is not the case. -- morpheus@newsguy.com ###### Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:37:50 -0500 From: "Bill Dowling" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: Organization: Mactronics Publishing X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.101.208.138 Message-ID: <38d3cbcd_3@news1.prserv.net> X-Trace: 18 Mar 2000 18:32:45 GMT, 32.101.208.138 Lines: 50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news1.prserv.net!32.101.208.138 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:263 In article , "rjk2000" wrote: > I don't know if this has been discussed or not, but here goes. > > Okay, for those of you who don't know, the folks at TSR/WOTC/Hasbro has come > up with the idea to allow anyone to publish games or settings using their > new D20 system. There's info at www.wizards.com/dnd or > www.opengamingfoundation.org for those who haven't seen it. However, I'm > REALLY confused. Someone help me out here. > > How can a system be really "Open Source" if it does not allow other game > publishers to publish character creation rules? Doesn't that strike you as > friggin' odd? How can you recreate a new roleplaying game if you can't give > rules for character creation? They say that all people have to do is buy > their Player's Handbook to use with your game. In short -- D&D still makes > money off your game. The article uses a "Wild West" game as an example, but > even the interviewee says you have to buy the D&D Player's Handbook to > create characters. Am I reading this wrong? Because if I'm not, this is > one of the most BOGUS ideas in the world. The only thing you can REALLY do > with Open Source is create new campaign supplements for the D&D world or to > create modules for it. > > Imagine if Sengoku wasn't allowed to use character creation rules from > Fuzion? Or to use the articles' lovely computer analogy, imagine if Linux > required that you not use a certain crucial bit of code? > > This does not sound like Open Source. Far from it. Please -- somebody > correct me if I'm wrong. > > Sincerely, > > Nobody Important > > They made a mistake in releasing the information in the half-assed way that they did. Instead of waiting until they had everything set up, Ryan put up the rough drafts of the licenses on the web, put them in his .sig and then told people to check it out. He then released an interview he gave with an amateur interviewer. If WoTC had put out a well thought out, edited press release there'd probably be less confusion. You CAN change the character creation rules when using the Open Gaming License. You can't do so AND use the D20 logo. So you can release a D20 version of a sci fi game that doesn't use hit points, classes, or levels and includes a charater generation system that fits those assumptions. You just can't put the D20 logo on it. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 18 Mar 2000 22:40:02 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8b10k2$oaj$4@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mhaka.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 953419202 24915 149.174.242.213 (18 Mar 2000 22:40:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Mar 2000 22:40:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:336 > The OGL is a general license and the D20 a specific license for > use of a trademark. You could publish something using one, the > other or both. Given the usual "hunt you down, enslave your > family, burn your house and sow the ground with salt" approach > to trademark enfringement, the D20 license actually is pretty > open. I suppose it's as if SJG were to allow anyone to publish > GURPS supplements using the GURPS trademark, which AFAIK is not > the case. Depends. Getting GURPS based/trademarked Computer programs is generally very easy. Making GURPS paper products and marketing them if you aren't SJG has occured once AFAIK. (Modern Myth's IST Kingston book.) ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 18 Mar 2000 22:43:26 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 9 Message-ID: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <38d3cbcd_3@news1.prserv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhaka.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 953419406 24915 149.174.242.213 (18 Mar 2000 22:43:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Mar 2000 22:43:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:361 Bill Dowling wrote: > So you can release a D20 version of a sci fi game that doesn't > use hit points, classes, or levels and includes a charater > generation system that fits those assumptions. You just can't > put the D20 logo on it. At which point it ISN'T d20 anyway and other than signing on to the OGL to knuckle under tho the might of Hasbro, it's one of those non-d20 systems Dancy expects to eliminate. ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <8b10k2$oaj$4@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 18 Message-ID: <%YTA4.112$vp2.2880@ralph.vnet.net> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 23:05:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 953420731 166.82.1.7 (Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:05:31 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:05:31 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.isc.org!news.gnac.net!uunet!pao.uu.net!nyc.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:309 SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> wrote: > >Making GURPS paper products and marketing >them if you aren't SJG has occured once AFAIK. (Modern Myth's IST >Kingston book.) True, but Ghost Games' Magical Medley has an SJ-authorized GURPS magic spell! But historically it's been difficult to get a license to publish GURPS paper products, yes. SJGames has wanted editorial control. I don't know if this will change - it might. -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | "The trouble isn't that there are too many sos@vnet.net | fools, but that the lightning isn't Plymouth, NH, USA | distributed right." www.io.com/~sos | -Mark Twain ###### From: davidr3986@aol.comnospam (DavidR3986) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 Mar 2000 03:53:18 GMT References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:544 >> So you can release a D20 version of a sci fi game that doesn't >> use hit points, classes, or levels and includes a charater >> generation system that fits those assumptions. You just can't >> put the D20 logo on it. > > At which point it ISN'T d20 anyway and other than signing on to >the OGL to knuckle under tho the might of Hasbro, it's one of >those non-d20 systems Dancy expects to eliminate. You know, I've just come to the conclusion that all those Christian Fundamentalists and media talking heads were right. D&D *is* Evil! ;) ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 Mar 2000 07:42:16 GMT References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000319024216.11569.00000771@ng-ba1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:442 Larris Magpie wrote: >You're quite correct, that's why it's not called Open Source Gaming. It's >"Open Gaming" - certainly drawing on the same connotations, and using a >business model not that dissimilar from MS Internet Explorer, and probably >not designed to do anything but keep the RPG section at Wizards (and the >hobby) alive. OK, ya got me. 1. Why would a business plan which features other people using your system without licensing fees result in keeping the RPG section at Wizards alive? 2. Why would the loss of the RPG section at Wizards kill the *hobby*? Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: larris@usa.net (Larris Magpie) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Organization: None. I work alone. Reply-To: larris@usa.net Message-ID: <38e1034e.55201428@90.0.0.1> References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <20000319024216.11569.00000771@ng-ba1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 16:58:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.67.142.45 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@online.no X-Trace: news1.online.no 953485518 130.67.142.45 (Sun, 19 Mar 2000 18:05:18 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 18:05:18 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.nextra.ch!newsfeed1.online.no!newsfeed.online.no!news1.online.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:808 triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote: >>You're quite correct, that's why it's not called Open Source Gaming. It's >>"Open Gaming" - certainly drawing on the same connotations, and using a >>business model not that dissimilar from MS Internet Explorer, and probably >>not designed to do anything but keep the RPG section at Wizards (and the >>hobby) alive. > >OK, ya got me. > >1. Why would a business plan which features other people using your system >without licensing fees result in keeping the RPG section at Wizards alive? Wizards would employ this model because said systems would still need the core rule books if they were to be eligible to benefit from the brand recognition factor of the D20 trademark. The model in and of itself has nothing to do with Wizards per se. If that was how you read me, then I apologize. >2. Why would the loss of the RPG section at Wizards kill the *hobby*? OK, this is obviously a simple misunderstanding. I did not write "and therefore the hobby." It's not as if I mean the hobby relies solely on Wizards's RPGs. But Wizards do want to keep the hobby alive. They're not out to kill it forever. I do not believe they would actively and consciously do anything to the opposite. That's what I meant. The way I see it the Open Gaming Movement is designed to encourage less segmentation of gamers, allowing for greater "flow" of games and settings in the gaming populace. Note that this has nothing to do with the D20 system specificially, anybody can use this model. As such, I find that there is greater chance of keeping existing gamers in the hobby (lowering the treshold for renewal), if not right away attracting new ones. -- Larris "If darkness is merely the absence of light, Like evil, they say, is the absence of love; Why is it, then, that the gloom of the night Feels more tangible and opaque than rays from above?" ###### Reply-To: "Jim Bishop" From: "Jim Bishop" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10k2$oaj$4@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 03:02:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.14.225.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.sttls1.wa.home.com 953521328 24.14.225.121 (Sun, 19 Mar 2000 19:02:08 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 19:02:08 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.sttls1.wa.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:864 "SD Anderson" <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> wrote in message news:8b10k2$oaj$4@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com... > Depends. Getting GURPS based/trademarked Computer programs is > generally very easy. Yeah, but actually releasing them under the watchful eye of SJ is something else. Fallout was originally developed to be a GURPS CRPG but from what I hear the licensor was, er, difficult to work with. They scrapped the rules system at the last minute and went with something even more generic. ###### Reply-To: "Jim Bishop" From: "Jim Bishop" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 03:02:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.14.225.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.sttls1.wa.home.com 953521328 24.14.225.121 (Sun, 19 Mar 2000 19:02:08 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 19:02:08 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.sttls1.wa.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:866 What this whole "is it open or isn't it" discussion has missed completely is that WotC doesn't care if you like their plan or decide to use it. The point isn't to make the industry beholden to D&D, but to create an open standard that anybody can publish to. This actually _helps_ the small press guys. If I'm a small press RPG publisher, I've got to look at the OGL as a license to write up some D&D adventures and blow them out to the tune of many, many thousands of units. With all the analogies between the OGL and Linux and how rules are like operating systems floating around, there's an even more germane computer analogy: the installed user base. The installed user base for most RPGs is about four. The installed user base for Dungeons & Dragons is in the millions. Therefore the value in an open license, even a semi-open license, is huge. If the Industry doesn't want to publish to this new standard, that's fine. We can keep on publishing rules sets that sell a few thousand units and feel terribly satisfied. But there are other people waiting in the wings who will see this open standard as an opportunity to jump into the business. With the rules already designed, and the rules are damned good BTW, all they have to do is design adventures and sourcebooks, contract for art, lay it out and make sure the things are printed by Gen Con. And then decide how to spend all the money. So you can either recognize an opportunity when it's thrown in your lap, or don't. WotC doesn't need any one person to be converted, because the laws of market dynamics will make sure that others will sweep in to meet the unmet demand. I personally know of two small companies who plan to have products ready by August. I'll bet a shiny new dollar that they outsell every other non-WotC product at the show. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:27:30 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.37.14 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Mar 20 06:27:30 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x32.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.192.37.14 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsd_anderson Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:172 Reasons why Dancy's stated intent to have d20 replace other game systmes is doomed to fail. Ars Magica Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Black Ops (GURPS version)/Bureau 13/Men In Black Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Deadlands Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Rifts Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Shadowrun Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Star Trek Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? WoD Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? In each case I suspect the votes will overwhemingly go for Unacceptable. To pull it off, WotC/Hasbro has to run the other game makers out of business first. Despite Hasbro's money, I don't think they can get away with it if they tried. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: voxel@theramp.net (Bryant Berggren) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:05:19 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 57 Message-ID: <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ70!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:390 On Mon, 20 Mar 2000 03:02:08 GMT, "Jim Bishop" wrote: >What this whole "is it open or isn't it" discussion has missed completely is >that WotC doesn't care if you like their plan or decide to use it. The point >isn't to make the industry beholden to D&D, but to create an open standard >that anybody can publish to. This actually _helps_ the small press guys. Hold up a moment. What *exactly* is the "standard" here? From appearances, it looks like the "standard" is composed of *game mechanics*. "The problem isn't competing games, it's competing game systems" -- Ryan Dancey. But the catch is, by American law at least (and any Berne Convention nation, IIRC), game mechanics are ALREADY as "open" as you can get -- game mechanics generally can't be protected by intellectual property laws (there's an exception here dealing with patents that comes up so rarely and esoterically it isn't worth flogging over.) The "standard" was *already there* if anyone wanted to use it. It will always be there (well, if "sui generis" laws go through, it mayl disappear, but until then ...) >If I'm a small press RPG publisher, I've got to look at the OGL as a license >to write up some D&D adventures and blow them out to the tune of many, many >thousands of units. With all the analogies between the OGL and Linux and how >rules are like operating systems floating around, there's an even more >germane computer analogy: the installed user base. The installed user base >for most RPGs is about four. The installed user base for Dungeons & Dragons >is in the millions. Therefore the value in an open license, even a semi-open >license, is huge. So I, as a small press publisher, decide to write D&D modules. I *already could do this* legally. I can even say put a notice on my module cover blurbs: "This adventure is compatible with Dungeons & Dragons(tm). Dungeons & Dragons is a trademark of TSR, Inc.; the author is not affiliated with TSR, Inc. in any way." (For "TSR", insert whatever legal entity currently "officially" holds the trademark "D&D".) That's an absolutely legitimate process by present laws. >If the Industry doesn't want to publish to this new standard, that's fine. >We can keep on publishing rules sets that sell a few thousand units and feel >terribly satisfied. But there are other people waiting in the wings who will >see this open standard as an opportunity to jump into the business. With the >rules already designed, and the rules are damned good BTW, all they have to >do is design adventures and sourcebooks, contract for art, lay it out and >make sure the things are printed by Gen Con. And then decide how to spend >all the money. Which, as I pointed out, was already within their legal rights. It seems like the point of the OGL/D20 phenomena is a general agreement by HasWoTSR to the effect, "You know, you agree to avoid exercising some of your rights and we'll stop making dumbass threats about the rest". BRB ###### From: "m@ng" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 11:39:11 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: <6pncdsovsnh06fo2dab3ncpr48hr335r8d@4ax.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-734.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:885 On Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:27:30 GMT, in article <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote: > Reasons why Dancy's stated intent to have d20 replace other game >systmes is doomed to fail. [poll of acceptability of playing different systems/genres under D20 rules snipped] > In each case I suspect the votes will overwhemingly go for >Unacceptable. For the existing gamers who already use those systems, but what about new gamers? Let's say that good (meaning they capture the feel of the setting) D20 versions of each of those systems comes out. Will D20 players be more likely to buy the D20 version of a genre or the "original" version which uses a system with which neither they nor the people they play with are familiar? Then account for there likely being more people familiar with the D20 system coming from a D&D background than people familiar with the "original" system and it's not inconceivable that a D20 Star Trek clone will eventually outsell the existing Star Trek RPG as more people new to the hobby get started with D20 than with "proprietary" systems. In any case, it will be interesting to see how the difference between theory and practice works out. -- morpheus@newsguy.com ###### From: "Jeremy Reaban" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:49:57 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ70!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:627 Bryant Berggren wrote in message >So I, as a small press publisher, decide to write D&D modules. I >*already could do this* legally. I can even say put a notice on my >module cover blurbs: "This adventure is compatible with Dungeons & >Dragons(tm). Dungeons & Dragons is a trademark of TSR, Inc.; the >author is not affiliated with TSR, Inc. in any way." (For "TSR", >insert whatever legal entity currently "officially" holds the >trademark "D&D".) That's an absolutely legitimate process by present >laws. I believe you're right (as long the company avoided using trademarks like DM and such, and it's not based on TSR owned worlds or source material), and it's been done in the past (by Mayfair, and their Role-Aids line), but TSR can and did sue. They might not have won in court, but they could make the process so expensive that the other company would effectively lose.... ###### From: "Jeremy Reaban" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:57:21 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ70!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:658 SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote in message <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > Black Ops (GURPS version)/Bureau 13/Men In Black Played under d20 >rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Actually, having played B13 under it's own rules, playing it under the d20 rules is not only possible*, it would be an improvement. It's a great background, funny, and it's put out by really nice people, but the rules are perhaps the worst ever created for a RPG. *If you've played B13, you'd know that the rules bear a slight resemblance to AD&D - the stats are similar, you roll for stats, and it uses levels. But it has a truly awful combat and skill system. ###### Sender: Nathan Keir Edel From: edel@best.NOSPAM.com (Nate Edel) Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: disorganized studies of de world. X-Notice: Remove NO_SPAM from return address to reply via email. x-no-archive: yes User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.8-STABLE (i386)) Date: 20 Mar 2000 21:43:27 GMT Lines: 7 Message-ID: <38d69b7f$0$208@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 953588607 208 edel@206.184.139.134 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news2.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:280 SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote: % In each case I suspect the votes will overwhemingly go for % Unacceptable. Well, except Rifts. Add MegaDamage(tm) to D&D, and you've got something that looks a lot like D&D with a skill system... wait, 3e is supposed to have a real skill system.... ###### From: "JReynolds" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 33 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:55:43 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.33.189.135 X-Complaints-To: abuse@toad.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 953592913 162.33.189.135 (Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:55:13 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:55:13 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.114.4.11!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:228 Jeremy Reaban wrote in message ... > >Bryant Berggren wrote in message > > >>So I, as a small press publisher, decide to write D&D modules. I >>*already could do this* legally. I can even say put a notice on my >>module cover blurbs: "This adventure is compatible with Dungeons & >>Dragons(tm). Dungeons & Dragons is a trademark of TSR, Inc.; the >>author is not affiliated with TSR, Inc. in any way." (For "TSR", >>insert whatever legal entity currently "officially" holds the >>trademark "D&D".) That's an absolutely legitimate process by present >>laws. > > >I believe you're right (as long the company avoided using trademarks >like DM and such, and it's not based on TSR owned worlds or source >material), and it's been done in the past (by Mayfair, and their >Role-Aids line), but TSR can and did sue. They might not have won in >court, but they could make the process so expensive that the other >company would effectively lose.... > Yes. They can afford to be wrong. One day someone with balls will stand up to that kind of pressure, and then all this discussion about it will finally be put to rest. If I ever get bored and start writing D&D supplements, I'll be happy to do so. :-) ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 5 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:42:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.30 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 953595764 208.153.245.30 (Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:42:44 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:42:44 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:645 >If I ever get bored and start writing D&D supplements, I'll be happy to do >so. :-) The problem in this situation is you'd likely never get to prove you were right; you'd run out of money first. ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: <5LbWOCJPRrMPlppiN2oc5594u9oU@4ax.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:42:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.30 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 953595765 208.153.245.30 (Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:42:45 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:42:45 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:631 On Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:57:21 -0600, "Jeremy Reaban" wrote: > >SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote in message ><8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > >> Black Ops (GURPS version)/Bureau 13/Men In Black Played under d20 >>rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? > > >Actually, having played B13 under it's own rules, playing it under the >d20 rules is not only possible*, it would be an improvement. It's a >great background, funny, and it's put out by really nice people, but >the rules are perhaps the worst ever created for a RPG. > >*If you've played B13, you'd know that the rules bear a slight >resemblance to AD&D - the stats are similar, you roll for stats, and >it uses levels. But it has a truly awful combat and skill system. TriTac is notorious for producing a number of perfectly decent game concepts with their really dreadful house system. I've run both Bureau 13 and Fringeworthy using other systems in the past, and I'd like to run Incursion some day, but I'd never do it with the native game system. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 21 Mar 2000 00:11:52 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8b6eo8$ovv$1@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mhacm.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com 953597512 25599 149.174.240.13 (21 Mar 2000 00:11:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Mar 2000 00:11:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:380 Jim Bishop wrote: > If the Industry doesn't want to publish to this new standard, > that's fine. We can keep on publishing rules sets that sell a > few thousand units and feel terribly satisfied. But there are > other people waiting in the wings who will see this open > standard as an opportunity to jump into the business. With the > rules already designed, and the rules are damned good BTW, all > they have to do is design adventures and sourcebooks, contract > for art, lay it out and make sure the things are printed by Gen > Con. And then decide how to spend all the money. This assumes that a 'compatible with D&D' label will boost sales by at least 100 percent, a claim I personally doubt very much. Yon garage based gaming company isn't going to get WotC to print and distribute their adventures for them and they will find that complying with OGL standards can significantly hinder editorial and aesthetic choices. More to the point, game designers generally are GAMERS and may want to run rules *their* way. RQ and T&T were designed by people who've stated explicitly that they didn't like the D&D rules. 3e rules aren't much likely to be more acceptable than earlier versions of the game to a vast number of gamers. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 21 Mar 2000 00:18:08 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8b6f40$ovv$2@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mhacm.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com 953597888 25599 149.174.240.13 (21 Mar 2000 00:18:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Mar 2000 00:18:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:347 > I believe you're right (as long the company avoided using > trademarks like DM and such, and it's not based on TSR owned > worlds or source material), and it's been done in the past (by > Mayfair, and their Role-Aids line), but TSR can and did sue. > They might not have won in court, but they could make the > process so expensive that the other company would effectively > lose.... They sued and didn't get what they wanted in court. They ultimately threw money that they'd wished they'd kept to buy out the RoleAids line from Mayfair and buried it forever. More importantly, ultimately, they'd lose the issue in court to a company that hung on and fought. This is their altnerative to a policy that they ultimately aren't going to win. The alternative isn't guaranteed to win either however. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 01:27:56 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 66 Message-ID: <8b6j6c$a4a$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6pncdsovsnh06fo2dab3ncpr48hr335r8d@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.15.118 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Mar 21 01:27:56 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x24.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.192.15.118 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsd_anderson Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:106 In article <6pncdsovsnh06fo2dab3ncpr48hr335r8d@4ax.com>, "m@ng" wrote: > On Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:27:30 GMT, in article > <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> > SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote: > > > Reasons why Dancy's stated intent to have d20 replace other game > >systmes is doomed to fail. > > [poll of acceptability of playing different systems/genres under D20 > rules snipped] > > > In each case I suspect the votes will overwhemingly go for > >Unacceptable. > > For the existing gamers who already use those systems, but what about > new gamers? Let's say that good (meaning they capture the feel of the > setting) D20 versions of each of those systems comes out. Will D20 > players be more likely to buy the D20 version of a genre or the > "original" version which uses a system with which neither they nor the > people they play with are familiar? > > Then account for there likely being more people familiar with the D20 > system coming from a D&D background than people familiar with the > "original" system and it's not inconceivable that a D20 Star Trek clone > will eventually outsell the existing Star Trek RPG as more people new to > the hobby get started with D20 than with "proprietary" systems. This assumes the D20 license will pull in what must be in many cases 1000% more people than the same adventure built around another rule system would attract. Is WotC/Hasbro going to advertise, print, and distribute these independent game products? Or are the independent companies going to have to market them themselves? The ratio of people familiar with Star Trek to people who are familiar with ANY form of D&D is low. Using the stats Dancy's supplied, some 5 million people have played a RPG at least once in their lives. Voyager gets higher ratings than that. Most independent game systems have profited from being 'NOT D&D', as people tire of the D&D rules and look for something better. 3e would have to be tremendously superior to 2e to have the slightest chance of winning back any of the people who've walked away from the system, and unless it really is MUCH better, will likely turn off newbies at the same rates it's previous editions have, meaning that some will play a bit and quit, others will convert to these other systems they see. > > In any case, it will be interesting to see how the difference between > theory and practice works out. > > -- > morpheus@newsguy.com > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "JReynolds" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 23 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <2zIB4.437$a5.267683@news.abs.net> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 05:55:21 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.33.189.40 X-Complaints-To: abuse@toad.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 953636158 162.33.189.40 (Tue, 21 Mar 2000 05:55:58 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 05:55:58 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:219 Wayne Shaw wrote in message ... >>If I ever get bored and start writing D&D supplements, I'll be happy to do >>so. :-) > >The problem in this situation is you'd likely never get to prove you >were right; you'd run out of money first. The problem with this attitude is that it supports being right by might, not right by way of true law and justice. "They aren't right, but they can afford to be wrong at the expense of someone else." Call me an idealist, but I still believe the system can and will work for the small entrepeneur. Contrary to popular beliefs, there ARE good quality lawyers out there who will do pro-bono work. In addition, there are vast resources that would allow a person to act as a lawyer on their own behalf. And the negative publicity for a big company like Hasbro being seen as squashing the little competitor would cost them more in the long run then me. If that doesn't work, there's always a public hunger strike in front of Hasbro headquarters *grin*. THAT would get their attention. :-) ###### From: larris@usa.net (Larris Magpie) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Organization: None. I work alone. Reply-To: larris@usa.net Message-ID: <38d87595.215553304@90.0.0.1> References: <8b6eo8$ovv$1@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:25:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.67.142.110 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@online.no X-Trace: news1.online.no 953645515 130.67.142.110 (Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:31:55 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:31:55 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.online.no!newsfeed.online.no!news1.online.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:813 SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> wrote: > Yon garage based gaming company isn't going to get WotC to >print and distribute their adventures for them and they will find >that complying with OGL standards can significantly hinder >editorial and aesthetic choices. Pardon? SD, seems to me that you might be confusing OGL standards and D20 standards here. Nothing about the OGL has anything to do with editorial or aesthetic choices that I can see. I'd be grateful if you could provide examples. > More to the point, game designers generally are GAMERS and may >want to run rules *their* way. RQ and T&T were designed by people >who've stated explicitly that they didn't like the D&D rules. 3e >rules aren't much likely to be more acceptable than earlier >versions of the game to a vast number of gamers. The likelihood has IMO increased dramatically, but it's still a matter of speculation at this stage. We'll see. I worry however about Ryan S. stating that he was working to adjust the D20 license to restrict deleting or adding character abilities. IMO any system not having Perception is severely lacking, but this ability might already be included in 3E for all I know. -- Larris "If darkness is merely the absence of light, Like evil, they say, is the absence of love; Why is it, then, that the gloom of the night Feels more tangible and opaque than rays from above?" ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 54 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Mar 2000 15:18:34 GMT References: <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000321101834.03530.00003437@ng-cm1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!pants.skycache.com.MISMATCH!triton.skycache.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:436 SD Anderson wrote: > Ars Magica Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Unacceptable. > Black Ops (GURPS version)/Bureau 13/Men In Black Played under d20 >rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Possibly acceptable. > Deadlands Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Acceptable. Probably superior to the existing DEADLANDS system. > Rifts Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Definitely acceptable. > Shadowrun Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Possibly acceptable. Very acceptable to those who dislike dice pools. > Star Trek Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Possibly acceptable. I've always thought a good STAR TREK game would be template-based (which the D20 system is, although they still call them "classes"). Why? Well, all the Star Trek shows have certain roles which fall conveniently into a template scheme -- the Captain, the First Officer, the Tactical Officer, the Engineer, the Navigator, etc. (The original series is a little looser on some of these -- but it still applies.) There are still restrictive elements in the D20 system -- but it would be palpably easy to ignore those elements in designing your Star Trek game. > WoD Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Probably acceptable. The WoD clan systems would be easily modeled by the D20 class/template system. Again, anyone who dislikes dice pools would *definitely* find the D20 system a better fit for their gaming style. > To pull it off, WotC/Hasbro has to run the other game makers out of >business first. Despite Hasbro's money, I don't think they can get >away with it if they tried. Dancey's stated intent of getting rid of gaming systems is, to put it frankly, "just plain dumb". There just aren't that many good games shackled by bad systems (DEADLANDS would be high on my list, though). That being said, I don't think open gaming systems are a bad idea. The unnecessary baggage this one is coming with (through the confusing "D20 license" issue) is a palpable hurt. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:14:16 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8b874o$3i8_016@enews.newsguy.com> References: <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20000321101834.03530.00003437@ng-cm1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-336.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:395 In article <20000321101834.03530.00003437@ng-cm1.aol.com>, triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote: >Possibly acceptable. I've always thought a good STAR TREK game would be >template-based (which the D20 system is, although they still call them >"classes"). Why? Well, all the Star Trek shows have certain roles which fall >conveniently into a template scheme -- the Captain, the First Officer, the >Tactical Officer, the Engineer, the Navigator, etc. (The original series is a >little looser on some of these -- but it still applies.) Last Unicorn's Trek games are all template based - race, training, and position. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Mar 2000 18:27:54 GMT References: <8b874o$3i8_016@enews.newsguy.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000321132754.03530.00003466@ng-cm1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:466 Bruce Baugh wrote: >Last Unicorn's Trek games are all template based - race, training, and >position. Cool. I've got to get around to reading my copy of the TNG game one of these days. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> <2zIB4.437$a5.267683@news.abs.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:56:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.25 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 953665017 208.153.245.25 (Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:56:57 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:56:57 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!isdnet!nntp.abs.net!news.idt.net!news-feeder2.wcg.net!WCG!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:646 On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 05:55:21 -0500, "JReynolds" wrote: > >Wayne Shaw wrote in message ... >>>If I ever get bored and start writing D&D supplements, I'll be happy to do >>>so. :-) >> >>The problem in this situation is you'd likely never get to prove you >>were right; you'd run out of money first. > >The problem with this attitude is that it supports being right by might, not >right by way of true law and justice. "They aren't right, but they can >afford to be wrong at the expense of someone else." Call me an idealist, >but I still believe the system can and will work for the small entrepeneur. I remain remarkably unconvinced, unless the small entrepeneur can find an outside sugar daddy to assit him. Fact is, people use the cost of legal action as a weapon all the time, and quite successfully. And it _does_ favor the mighty. I just consider that a statement of reality. > >Contrary to popular beliefs, there ARE good quality lawyers out there who >will do pro-bono work. In addition, there are vast resources that would >allow a person to act as a lawyer on their own behalf. And the negative >publicity for a big company like Hasbro being seen as squashing the little >competitor would cost them more in the long run then me. You might think so, but do they? And remember, the lawyers themselves aren't the only costs in the legal process. Filing fees can eat your lunch if you're small fry too. > >If that doesn't work, there's always a public hunger strike in front of >Hasbro headquarters *grin*. THAT would get their attention. :-) If you're willing and capable to go that far. And they don't just treat you as a crank. ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:03:56 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8b8h2s$26o_008@enews.newsguy.com> References: <8b874o$3i8_016@enews.newsguy.com> <20000321132754.03530.00003466@ng-cm1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-119.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:560 In article <20000321132754.03530.00003466@ng-cm1.aol.com>, triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote: >>Last Unicorn's Trek games are all template based - race, training, and >>position. >Cool. I've got to get around to reading my copy of the TNG game one of these >days. Fair warning: chargen in the TNG book is badly presented. The actual mechanics are simple, but whoo boy the organization is bad. You'll be flipping back and forth. Expect it to take a few passes to get clear. TOS and DS9 learned, and did lots better in this regard. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### From: Bill McHale Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 21 Mar 2000 19:05:21 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, Baltimore County Lines: 61 Message-ID: <8b8h5h$1m8h$1@news.umbc.edu> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: umbc7.umbc.edu X-Trace: news.umbc.edu 953665521 55569 130.85.6.7 (21 Mar 2000 19:05:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@umbc.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Mar 2000 19:05:21 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (IRIX64/6.5 (IP19)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feeder.qis.net!news.umbc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:125 SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote: : Reasons why Dancy's stated intent to have d20 replace other game : systmes is doomed to fail. : Ars Magica Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Pretty sure this would be unacceptable, afterall much of the charm of Ars Magica is its great magic system. : Black Ops (GURPS version)/Bureau 13/Men In Black Played under d20 : rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Well we will find out when WOTC Star Wars comes out : ). : Deadlands Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? It might be easier : ). Again though this game would loose alot of its charm, though I doubt d20 would slow the game down or make many of the things in that game impossible. : Rifts Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Isn't it already played under d20 rules : ). : Shadowrun Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? The system has never been Shadowrun's strong suit (hence the fact that every edition of the game has had major rule revisions) so I am not sure what impact a major system switch would have. : Star Trek Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Again, who actually plays LUGs game for the rules? I suspect that most people play it because it is Star Trek and wouldn't care if it was played with d20, d6, LUGs system or the Hero System. : WoD Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? Got to be better than the current statistical nightmare. : In each case I suspect the votes will overwhemingly go for : Unacceptable. I wouldn't assume it in each case. : To pull it off, WotC/Hasbro has to run the other game makers out of : business first. Despite Hasbro's money, I don't think they can get : away with it if they tried. I doubt they will succeed, but the primary reason I doubt it is that these days it seems that the number one motivation to write a new game system is dissatisfaction with DnD : ). -- Bill *************************************************************************** We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home page - http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~wmchal1 *************************************************************************** ###### From: Bill McHale Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 21 Mar 2000 19:13:06 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, Baltimore County Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8b8hk2$1m8h$2@news.umbc.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: umbc7.umbc.edu X-Trace: news.umbc.edu 953665986 55569 130.85.6.7 (21 Mar 2000 19:13:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@umbc.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Mar 2000 19:13:06 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (IRIX64/6.5 (IP19)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!nntp.abs.net!feeder.qis.net!news.umbc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:126 rjk2000 wrote: : I don't know if this has been discussed or not, but here goes. : Okay, for those of you who don't know, the folks at TSR/WOTC/Hasbro has come : up with the idea to allow anyone to publish games or settings using their : new D20 system. There's info at www.wizards.com/dnd or : www.opengamingfoundation.org for those who haven't seen it. However, I'm : REALLY confused. Someone help me out here. I have one question about this; won't the name D20 infringe on the D6 trademark of WEG? I am assuming that they trademarked D6. -- Bill *************************************************************************** We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home page - http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~wmchal1 *************************************************************************** ###### From: nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 21 Mar 2000 19:50:31 GMT References: <8b8hk2$1m8h$2@news.umbc.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000321145031.17324.00006476@ng-xe1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:525 Bill McHale wrote: << I have one question about this; won't the name D20 infringe on the D6 trademark of WEG? I am assuming that they trademarked D6. >> No more than DragonQuest infringed on Dungeons & Dragons. Or Jolly Cola infringes on Coca Cola. Although, it would inspire great mirth to watch poor, poor WEG (who are so poor they can't pay off the freelancers who are owed thousands of dollars) to attempt to litigate the matter. Steve Miller Writer of Stuff And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right. I've been talking to Jesus all my life. --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me" ###### Message-ID: <38D7F196.241E@wizvax.net> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:03:02 -0500 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> <2zIB4.437$a5.267683@news.abs.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-197.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-197.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 21 Mar 2000 17:18:11 -0500, cm-24-29-52-197.nycap.rr.com Lines: 21 XPident: jmcohen X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!bstnma1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.mv.net!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-197.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:942 Wayne Shaw wrote: > I remain remarkably unconvinced, unless the small entrepeneur can find > an outside sugar daddy to assit him. Fact is, people use the cost of > legal action as a weapon all the time, and quite successfully. And it > _does_ favor the mighty. I just consider that a statement of reality. WotC, when it was a little newbie company, made Palladium back off. TSR, which was considerably larger than either, didn't even attempt to go after WotC on the same issue, because they knew that it would be expensive for them too. Yes, it's HARDER for the small company, but if you're willing to go for the balls-to-the-wall approach, you can make even a very, very large company think twice about whether this is really worth it. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <2zIB4.437$a5.267683@news.abs.net> <38D7F196.241E@wizvax.net> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 12 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:26:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 953677606 166.82.1.7 (Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:26:46 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:26:46 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:331 Sea Wasp wrote: > > WotC, when it was a little newbie company, made Palladium back off. My memory is hazy on the event, but didn't they "make" them back off by settling out of court with a payment to Palladium? -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | sos@vnet.net | "Today is the yesterday you won't be able to Plymouth, NH, USA | remember tomorrow." www.io.com/~sos | -Daniel M. Pinkwater ###### From: Bill McHale Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 21 Mar 2000 22:45:04 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, Baltimore County Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8b8u1g$1ped$1@news.umbc.edu> References: <8b8hk2$1m8h$2@news.umbc.edu> <20000321145031.17324.00006476@ng-xe1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: umbc7.umbc.edu X-Trace: news.umbc.edu 953678704 58829 130.85.6.7 (21 Mar 2000 22:45:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@umbc.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Mar 2000 22:45:04 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (IRIX64/6.5 (IP19)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!209.150.97.11!feeder.qis.net!news.umbc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:183 Steve Miller wrote: : Bill McHale wrote: : << I have one question about this; won't the name D20 infringe on the D6 : trademark of WEG? I am assuming that they trademarked D6. >> : No more than DragonQuest infringed on Dungeons & Dragons. Or Jolly Cola : infringes on Coca Cola. : Although, it would inspire great mirth to watch poor, poor WEG (who are so poor : they can't pay off the freelancers who are owed thousands of dollars) to : attempt to litigate the matter. Perhaps, but McDonalds will sue anyone who names a resturaunt McFoo and Kellogs recently sued Exxon because Exxon's tiger logo in conjunction with their expanded foodmarts were supposed to be in competition with Kellogs' Tony the Tiger. I agree that WEG doesn't have much chance of doing anything, but it would be interesting : ). -- Bill *************************************************************************** We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home page - http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~wmchal1 *************************************************************************** ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 21 Mar 2000 22:57:18 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 9 Message-ID: <8b8uoe$kqc$2@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <38D7F196.241E@wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhakq.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com 953679438 21324 149.174.242.229 (21 Mar 2000 22:57:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Mar 2000 22:57:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:402 > WotC, when it was a little newbie company, made Palladium > back off. TSR, which was considerably larger than either, > didn't even attempt to go after WotC on the same issue, because > they knew that it would be expensive for them too. I was under the impression that it ended after WotC took their unlicensed Palladium materiall out of the 2nd edition of TPO. Certainly Adkisson conceded Palladium's contention in an interview in Pyramid back then. ###### Message-ID: <38D800D3.45DC@wizvax.net> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:08:03 -0500 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <2zIB4.437$a5.267683@news.abs.net> <38D7F196.241E@wizvax.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-197.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-52-197.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 21 Mar 2000 18:23:15 -0500, cm-24-29-52-197.nycap.rr.com Lines: 24 XPident: wilson X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.mv.net!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-52-197.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:947 Steffan O'Sullivan wrote: > > Sea Wasp wrote: > > > > WotC, when it was a little newbie company, made Palladium back off. > > My memory is hazy on the event, but didn't they "make" them back off by > settling out of court with a payment to Palladium? Palladium wanted them to admit to doing something wrong. They were willing to take the references out from the very first, but not to sign something saying that they'd done something wrong, since they didn't. Palladium was forced to back off from that, and did, because if they hadn't, WotC had made it clear that they were willing to literally sacrifice their own salaries in order to pay the legal fees and keep the suit going. I count that as a win for WotC. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: "JReynolds" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> <2zIB4.437$a5.267683@news.abs.net> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 42 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:33:46 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.114.97 X-Complaints-To: abuse@toad.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 953681703 209.150.114.97 (Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:35:03 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:35:03 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:196 Wayne Shaw wrote in message ... >On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 05:55:21 -0500, "JReynolds" >wrote: > >> >>Wayne Shaw wrote in message ... >>>>If I ever get bored and start writing D&D supplements, I'll be happy to do >>>>so. :-) >>> >>>The problem in this situation is you'd likely never get to prove you >>>were right; you'd run out of money first. >> >>The problem with this attitude is that it supports being right by might, not >>right by way of true law and justice. "They aren't right, but they can >>afford to be wrong at the expense of someone else." Call me an idealist, >>but I still believe the system can and will work for the small entrepeneur. > >I remain remarkably unconvinced, unless the small entrepeneur can find >an outside sugar daddy to assit him. Fact is, people use the cost of >legal action as a weapon all the time, and quite successfully. And it >_does_ favor the mighty. I just consider that a statement of reality. That's why your world remains small and mine remains large. I refuse to admit there are things that I can't do when it comes to issues like this. Reality is what you choose to make it, not what someone tells you it is. I can and have taken part in actions with small groups of independent folks that forced changes upon major companies. Grassroots action is both cheap and effective for those with any guts at all who are willing to actually take a stand for a change. But at least you don't deny that this is being right by might of wallet, rather then actually being right. :-) P.S. Filing fees will be paid by the company filing the claim, not the person defending themselves. ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38D7F196.241E@wizvax.net> <38D800D3.45DC@wizvax.net> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4ITB4.260$vp2.8012@ralph.vnet.net> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:36:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 953681792 166.82.1.7 (Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:36:32 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:36:32 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:307 Sea Wasp wrote: >Steffan O'Sullivan wrote: >> My memory is hazy on the event, but didn't they "make" them back off by >> settling out of court with a payment to Palladium? > > Palladium wanted them to admit to doing something wrong. They were >willing to take the references out from the very first, but not to sign >something saying that they'd done something wrong, since they didn't. >Palladium was forced to back off from that, and did, because if they >hadn't, WotC had made it clear that they were willing to literally >sacrifice their own salaries in order to pay the legal fees and keep the >suit going. > > I count that as a win for WotC. Hmm - but that doesn't really answer my question. Did they settle out of court with a payment to Palladium? -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | sos@vnet.net | "Today is the yesterday you won't be able to Plymouth, NH, USA | remember tomorrow." www.io.com/~sos | -Daniel M. Pinkwater ###### Message-ID: <38D822F1.4E5F@wizvax.net> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:33:37 -0500 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38D7F196.241E@wizvax.net> <38D800D3.45DC@wizvax.net> <4ITB4.260$vp2.8012@ralph.vnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-88.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-88.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 21 Mar 2000 20:48:58 -0500, cm-24-29-53-88.nycap.rr.com Lines: 30 XPident: tuulia X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.mv.net!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-53-88.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:952 Steffan O'Sullivan wrote: > > Sea Wasp wrote: > >Steffan O'Sullivan wrote: > >> My memory is hazy on the event, but didn't they "make" them back off by > >> settling out of court with a payment to Palladium? > > > > Palladium wanted them to admit to doing something wrong. They were > >willing to take the references out from the very first, but not to sign > >something saying that they'd done something wrong, since they didn't. > >Palladium was forced to back off from that, and did, because if they > >hadn't, WotC had made it clear that they were willing to literally > >sacrifice their own salaries in order to pay the legal fees and keep the > >suit going. > > > > I count that as a win for WotC. > > Hmm - but that doesn't really answer my question. Did they settle out > of court with a payment to Palladium? I don't recall any payment. They did have to put little ugly stickers on the remaining Primal Order books saying the use of Palladium wasn't authorized, and remove the material from other printings and later works. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38D800D3.45DC@wizvax.net> <4ITB4.260$vp2.8012@ralph.vnet.net> <38D822F1.4E5F@wizvax.net> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 14 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 02:16:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 953691404 166.82.1.7 (Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:16:44 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:16:44 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!nntp.abs.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:333 Sea Wasp wrote: > > I don't recall any payment. They did have to put little ugly stickers >on the remaining Primal Order books saying the use of Palladium wasn't >authorized, and remove the material from other printings and later >works. Okay, thanks. That may be what I was thinking of. -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | sos@vnet.net | "Today is the yesterday you won't be able to Plymouth, NH, USA | remember tomorrow." www.io.com/~sos | -Daniel M. Pinkwater ###### Message-ID: <38D8300B.3E3F@wizvax.net> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:29:31 -0500 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <2zIB4.437$a5.267683@news.abs.net> <38D7F196.241E@wizvax.net> <38D800D3.45DC@wizvax.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-88.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-88.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 21 Mar 2000 21:44:57 -0500, cm-24-29-53-88.nycap.rr.com Lines: 38 XPident: tuulia X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!den-news-01.qwest.net!qwest!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-53-88.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:945 Wayne Shaw wrote: > > On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:08:03 -0500, Sea Wasp > wrote: > > >Steffan O'Sullivan wrote: > >> > >> Sea Wasp wrote: > >> > > >> > WotC, when it was a little newbie company, made Palladium back off. > >> > >> My memory is hazy on the event, but didn't they "make" them back off by > >> settling out of court with a payment to Palladium? > > > > Palladium wanted them to admit to doing something wrong. They were > >willing to take the references out from the very first, but not to sign > >something saying that they'd done something wrong, since they didn't. > >Palladium was forced to back off from that, and did, because if they > >hadn't, WotC had made it clear that they were willing to literally > >sacrifice their own salaries in order to pay the legal fees and keep the > >suit going. > > > > I don't. Palladium may not have gotten all the apples, but they got > the primary one. Not really. They WANTED money and admission of wrongdoing, and by deduction and observation they wanted to kill or otherwise seriously damage their opposition. All they managed to do was get something (the withdrawal of the conversion notes) that they could have gotten by ASKING NICELY. So basically they lost a lot of money and time over nothing at all. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> <2zIB4.437$a5.267683@news.abs.net> <38D7F196.241E@wizvax.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 02:36:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.25 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 953692609 208.153.245.25 (Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:36:49 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:36:49 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:664 On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:03:02 -0500, Sea Wasp wrote: >Wayne Shaw wrote: > >> I remain remarkably unconvinced, unless the small entrepeneur can find >> an outside sugar daddy to assit him. Fact is, people use the cost of >> legal action as a weapon all the time, and quite successfully. And it >> _does_ favor the mighty. I just consider that a statement of reality. > > WotC, when it was a little newbie company, made Palladium back off. >TSR, which was considerably larger than either, didn't even attempt to >go after WotC on the same issue, because they knew that it would be >expensive for them too. I question whether you can call someone "backing off" when they get what they want, which was the material from the Primal Order providing Palladium conversion advice removed. So did TSR, which has usually at least had the sense to try quiet pressure before bringing out the hammers. > > Yes, it's HARDER for the small company, but if you're willing to go for >the balls-to-the-wall approach, you can make even a very, very large >company think twice about whether this is really worth it. As I said, I remain unconvinced. ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <2zIB4.437$a5.267683@news.abs.net> <38D7F196.241E@wizvax.net> <38D800D3.45DC@wizvax.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 02:37:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.25 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 953692669 208.153.245.25 (Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:37:49 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:37:49 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!63.208.208.143!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:701 On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:08:03 -0500, Sea Wasp wrote: >Steffan O'Sullivan wrote: >> >> Sea Wasp wrote: >> > >> > WotC, when it was a little newbie company, made Palladium back off. >> >> My memory is hazy on the event, but didn't they "make" them back off by >> settling out of court with a payment to Palladium? > > Palladium wanted them to admit to doing something wrong. They were >willing to take the references out from the very first, but not to sign >something saying that they'd done something wrong, since they didn't. >Palladium was forced to back off from that, and did, because if they >hadn't, WotC had made it clear that they were willing to literally >sacrifice their own salaries in order to pay the legal fees and keep the >suit going. > I don't. Palladium may not have gotten all the apples, but they got the primary one. Just like when TSR went after GDW regarding Gygax's fantasy game, they didn't get everything they wanted, but they got enough. ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> <2zIB4.437$a5.267683@news.abs.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 02:42:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.25 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 953692928 208.153.245.25 (Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:42:08 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:42:08 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:697 On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:33:46 -0500, "JReynolds" wrote: >That's why your world remains small and mine remains large. I refuse to >admit there are things that I can't do when it comes to issues like this. Or alternitively, you live in fantasy and I in reality if we insist on playing the dozens on it. I see no virtue in butting one's head into brick walls; it's far too unlikely to do much to the wall and quite likely to do damage to the head. >Reality is what you choose to make it, not what someone tells you it is. I A nice theory. Fantasy usually is. >can and have taken part in actions with small groups of independent folks >that forced changes upon major companies. Grassroots action is both cheap >and effective for those with any guts at all who are willing to actually >take a stand for a change. > >But at least you don't deny that this is being right by might of wallet, >rather then actually being right. :-) I never claimed otherwise. > >P.S. Filing fees will be paid by the company filing the claim, not the >person defending themselves. They aren't the only fees involved in many of these things, and there are a number of creative ways to offload extra costs on the target. ###### From: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 22 Mar 2000 03:45:25 GMT Organization: Semiotic Marines, Altoid Squad Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8b9fkl0rgv@news2.newsguy.com> References: <38D800D3.45DC@wizvax.net> <38D8300B.3E3F@wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-329.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:367 In article <38D8300B.3E3F@wizvax.net>, Sea Wasp wrote: > Not really. They WANTED money and admission of wrongdoing, and by >deduction and observation they wanted to kill or otherwise seriously >damage their opposition. All they managed to do was get something (the >withdrawal of the conversion notes) that they could have gotten by >ASKING NICELY. So basically they lost a lot of money and time over >nothing at all. The original claim in this thread was that legal action could effectively prevent the small company from publishing AD&D compatible scenarios and such, right? The Palladium example tends to prove that point. -- Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] "Shouldn't we be carefully placing these comics in plastic bags?" "No, we have lives." -- MST3K ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <2zIB4.437$a5.267683@news.abs.net> <38D7F196.241E@wizvax.net> <38D800D3.45DC@wizvax.net> <38D8300B.3E3F@wizvax.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:37:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.25 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 953707045 208.153.245.25 (Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:37:25 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:37:25 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:681 On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:29:31 -0500, Sea Wasp >> I don't. Palladium may not have gotten all the apples, but they got >> the primary one. > > Not really. They WANTED money and admission of wrongdoing, and by >deduction and observation they wanted to kill or otherwise seriously >damage their opposition. All they managed to do was get something (the > I think they wanted to show that you couldn't use their game system in any way, shape or form without their permission...and they got that. What you say may have been what they hoped for, but it wasn't the primary point. withdrawal of the conversion notes) that they could have gotten by >ASKING NICELY. So basically they lost a lot of money and time over >nothing at all. They lost a lot of money because Siembiada is a jerk who can't stand anyone to touch his material without a gross overreaction, but they still got what they wanted as the primary point. Everyone classically overreaches when they take a case to court on the shotgun principal; if they send enough shot downrange, some of it will hit. ###### From: kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 22 Mar 2000 07:14:58 GMT Organization: the Satellite of Love Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <2zIB4.437$a5.267683@news.abs.net> <38D7F196.241E@wizvax.net> <38D800D3.45DC@wizvax.net> <38D8300B.3E3F@wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gecko.roadtoad.net Keywords: Hexapodia as the key insight X-X: http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/documents/x-headers.html User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (FreeBSD) Cache-Post-Path: gecko!kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!206.191.82.230!prairie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!12.127.17.144!attbt1!news.jeeves.net!attbt2!ip.att.net!news.fsr.net!kamikaze Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:64 Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:29:31 -0500 in <38D8300B.3E3F@wizvax.net>, Sea Wasp spake: >Wayne Shaw wrote: >> I don't. Palladium may not have gotten all the apples, but they got >> the primary one. > Not really. They WANTED money and admission of wrongdoing, and by As far as anyone except Kevin can tell with certainty, that's not correct. They *demanded* removal, penalty money, and admission of wrongdoing. What they *wanted* was to not have other people publishing Palladium works. And they got exactly what they wanted. That's how annoyance lawsuits work. Did TSR want nobody except them to use any of the hundreds of standard gaming terms they sued GDW over on Dangerous Journeys? Or was that an extremist position so they could wear GDW down and then settle? The evidence shows the latter... >deduction and observation they wanted to kill or otherwise seriously >damage their opposition. All they managed to do was get something (the >withdrawal of the conversion notes) that they could have gotten by >ASKING NICELY. So basically they lost a lot of money and time over >nothing at all. No, it established clearly that you don't fuck around with Mr. Siembieda's game. And it's worked. Nobody's screwed with them since, have they? I don't think it's a particularly good plan, but it hasn't noticeably hurt Pall's business. -- Mark Hughes Disclaimer: I do not have an orbital mind control laser; you are free to post your own opinion, but be prepared to back it up, because I *will* call you on it if I think it's bullshit. That's how the Internet, and life, works. ###### From: kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 22 Mar 2000 07:21:47 GMT Organization: the Satellite of Love Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38d69b7f$0$208@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gecko.roadtoad.net Keywords: Hexapodia as the key insight X-X: http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/documents/x-headers.html User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (FreeBSD) Cache-Post-Path: gecko!kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!206.191.82.230!prairie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!12.127.17.144!attbt1!ip.att.net!news.fsr.net!kamikaze Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:30 20 Mar 2000 21:43:27 GMT in <38d69b7f$0$208@nntp1.ba.best.com>, Nate Edel spake: >Well, except Rifts. Add MegaDamage(tm) to D&D, and you've got something that >looks a lot like D&D with a skill system... wait, 3e is supposed to have a >real skill system.... If Pall looks a lot like D+D with a skill system, then so does Basic Role-Play (the system under Call of Cthulhu, Elric!, and Runequest, in case you're unfamiliar with the history of gaming) and a few hundred other systems. Of course, D+D3 gets a real skill system 20 years after Palladium, but I'm sure the authors of Palladium, Basic Role-Play, and had a time machine to rip it off, rather than being the other way around. D+D3 is nothing but a Palladium ripoff. I compare the two at: -- Mark Hughes Disclaimer: I do not have an orbital mind control laser; you are free to post your own opinion, but be prepared to back it up, because I *will* call you on it if I think it's bullshit. That's how the Internet, and life, works. ###### From: incanus@incanus.com (Berislav Lopac) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:29:18 +0100 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inc=E1nus?= Lines: 18 Message-ID: <1e7w247.vikgcp3t9gyiN%incanus@incanus.com> References: <8b8hk2$1m8h$2@news.umbc.edu> <20000321145031.17324.00006476@ng-xe1.aol.com> <8b8u1g$1ped$1@news.umbc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin005.iskon.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 953713743 20258 195.29.170.144 (22 Mar 2000 08:29:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Mar 2000 08:29:03 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!triton.skycache.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!incanus Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:896 Bill McHale wrote: > : << I have one question about this; won't the name D20 infringe on the D6 > : trademark of WEG? I am assuming that they trademarked D6. >> > > : No more than DragonQuest infringed on Dungeons & Dragons. Or Jolly Cola > : infringes on Coca Cola. > > Perhaps, but McDonalds will sue anyone who names a resturaunt McFoo I remember reading somewhere that McDonald's once tried to sue a restaurant in Scotland, named McDonalds. Naturally, they lost, since the restaurand bears the same name for the last few hundred years. -- Incanus: incanus@incanus.com Incanus homepage: http://www.incanus.com Incanus Games: http://www.incanus.com/games/ ###### From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 22 Mar 2000 02:45 CST Organization: Geochemical and Environmental Research Group - TAMU Lines: 23 Distribution: world Message-ID: <22MAR200002452633@gerg.tamu.edu> References: <8b8hk2$1m8h$2@news.umbc.edu> <20000321145031.17324.00006476@ng-xe1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gergl1.gerg.tamu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Mar 2000 08:43:58 GMT X-Lunar-Date: 5 days, 21 hrs, 59 mins until the last quarter of the moon (U.T.) News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50AAXP Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!gerg.tamu.edu!carl Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:136 nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller) writes... }Bill McHale wrote: } }<< I have one question about this; won't the name D20 infringe on the D6 }trademark of WEG? I am assuming that they trademarked D6. >> } }No more than DragonQuest infringed on Dungeons & Dragons. Or Jolly Cola }infringes on Coca Cola. } }Although, it would inspire great mirth to watch poor, poor WEG (who are so poor }they can't pay off the freelancers who are owed thousands of dollars) to }attempt to litigate the matter. } }Steve Miller D20 and D6 start with the same letter. Other than that they are different. Now take GTE and GE. Obvioulsy GTE is infringing on GE's trademark since they not only start with the same letter, they also end with the same letter. All GTE did was insert a letter into the middle. What an amazing trademark infringement. Not. --- Carl ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 22 Mar 2000 14:45:22 GMT References: <22MAR200002452633@gerg.tamu.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000322094522.02106.00003520@ng-fz1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:488 Carl wrote: >D20 and D6 start with the same letter. Other than that they are different. > >Now take GTE and GE. Obvioulsy GTE is infringing on GE's trademark >since they not only start with the same letter, they also end with the >same letter. All GTE did was insert a letter into the middle. What >an amazing trademark infringement. Not. The difference being that both D20 and D6 refer to dice types and are in direct competition with one another. The relationship between GTE and GE is less direct (does General Electric even have a telecommunications division?). Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### Sender: Nathan Keir Edel From: edel@best.NOSPAM.com (Nate Edel) Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38d69b7f$0$208@nntp1.ba.best.com> Organization: disorganized studies of de world. X-Notice: Remove NO_SPAM from return address to reply via email. x-no-archive: yes User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.8-STABLE (i386)) Date: 22 Mar 2000 16:25:31 GMT Lines: 26 Message-ID: <38d8f3fb$0$227@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 953742331 227 edel@206.184.139.134 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:302 Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote: %>Well, except Rifts. Add MegaDamage(tm) to D&D, and you've got something that %>looks a lot like D&D with a skill system... wait, 3e is supposed to have a %>real skill system.... % If Pall looks a lot like D+D with a skill system, then so does Basic % Role-Play (the system under Call of Cthulhu, Elric!, and Runequest, in % case you're unfamiliar with the history of gaming) and a few hundred % other systems. Of those, I'm only familiar with CoC (and the rather obscure Elfquest RPG) and my impression of Palladium is that their OCC system is a lot more like D&D classes that Cthulhu professions are. FTM, Palladium still has alignments (in roughly similar form, minus true neutral, albeit renamed) and levels, doesn't it? Do any more of the Chaosium systems? % Of course, D+D3 gets a real skill system 20 years after Palladium, but % I'm sure the authors of Palladium, Basic Role-Play, and had a time % machine to rip it off, rather than being the other way around. D+D3 is % nothing but a Palladium ripoff. I'm not saying anything's a ripoff of anything else. I'm just saying that Palladium is sufficiently like D&D with a skill sysstem that from what I hear about D&D3e/D20, if you add Megadamage and a whole lot of the other munchkin bits that Palladium has grafted onto their system to make Rifts, you could play Rifts using D20/OGL rules. ###### From: nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 22 Mar 2000 19:11:39 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000322141139.15548.00007109@ng-de1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:471 Mark Hughes wrote: << Did TSR want nobody except them to use any of the hundreds of standard gaming terms they sued GDW over on Dangerous Journeys? >> My memory may be off here, but I don't think TSR was suing over those hundreds of terms. Those hundreds of terms were supporting evidence to the point of the suit, weren't they? Steve Miller Writer of Stuff And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right. I've been talking to Jesus all my life. --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me" ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:18:52 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 22 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on potato.cit.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <20000322141139.15548.00007109@ng-de1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.cit.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 953752731 15952 132.236.156.18 (22 Mar 2000 19:18:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Mar 2000 19:18:51 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:825 In article <20000322141139.15548.00007109@ng-de1.aol.com>, nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller) wrote: > Mark Hughes wrote: > > << Did TSR want nobody except them to use any of the hundreds of standard > gaming terms they sued GDW over on Dangerous Journeys? >> > > My memory may be off here, but I don't think TSR was suing over those hundreds > of terms. Those hundreds of terms were supporting evidence to the point of the > suit, weren't they? The terms of the legal claim had nothing to do with specific violation of intellectual property law regarding the CONTENTS of the game. Instead, it hinged on the contention by TSR that Gygax did "substantial" work on the game while still working for TSR, which meant that it fell under "work for hire" for TSR and was, therfore, TSR property. -- "Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are dealing with our mental health crisis today." ###### From: nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 22 Mar 2000 19:21:41 GMT References: <20000322094522.02106.00003520@ng-fz1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000322142141.15548.00007110@ng-de1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:413 Justin Bacon wrote: << The difference being that both D20 and D6 refer to dice types and are in direct competition with one another. >> Hence my example of Jolly Cola vs. Coca Cola and DragonQuest vs. Dungeons & Dragons (or even better... DragonQuest vs. RuneQuest). Sure, McDonald's could sue someone for opening a McFood restraunt... but unless there's an obvious effort on the part of McFood to confuse their business with McDonald in the minds of public, the suit will probably not make it past the discovery stages. (That was *the* fatal error that GDW made back then, IMO. Both the 'Dangerous Dimensions' name and at least one logo that I saw were obvious attempts to lean on D&D's status in the marketplace. They further telegraphed this intent with some of the early ad copy. The whole "we will bury you" attitude from GDW and Gygax & Co. that surrounded 'Dangerous Journeys' would have brought a response from even the most well-mannered corporate management. Of course, a *smart* management team would have realized the game was a dog and that it would sink on its own...) Note: I am not a lawyer... I only have a working knowledge of the issues involved from time spent behind an editorial desk. Steve Miller Writer of Stuff And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right. I've been talking to Jesus all my life. --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me" ###### From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 23 Mar 2000 00:12 CST Organization: Geochemical and Environmental Research Group - TAMU Lines: 38 Distribution: world Message-ID: <23MAR200000121499@gerg.tamu.edu> References: <22MAR200002452633@gerg.tamu.edu> <20000322094522.02106.00003520@ng-fz1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gergl1.gerg.tamu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Mar 2000 06:10:47 GMT X-Lunar-Date: 5 days, 0 hrs, 25 mins until the last quarter of the moon (U.T.) News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50AAXP Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!triton.skycache.com!howland.erols.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-feeds.jump.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!gerg.tamu.edu!carl Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:137 triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) writes... }Carl wrote: }>D20 and D6 start with the same letter. Other than that they are different. }> }>Now take GTE and GE. Obvioulsy GTE is infringing on GE's trademark }>since they not only start with the same letter, they also end with the }>same letter. All GTE did was insert a letter into the middle. What }>an amazing trademark infringement. Not. } }The difference being that both D20 and D6 refer to dice types and are in direct }competition with one another. The relationship between GTE and GE is less }direct (does General Electric even have a telecommunications division?). } }Justin Bacon }triad@prairie.lakes.com GE does various cable and internet services which probably compete with GTE. (Including GE Information Services: "As a global leader in electronic commerce, we manage the world's largest electronic trading community of more than 100,000 trading partners. We deliver solutions that streamline the extended supply chain, including messaging gateway, Extranets, electronic catalogues, electronic market places and Electronic Data Interchange.") It probably also competes with GTE diretly in some other areas like financing and insurance (they each own a subsidiary or have a division that does things like this). For that matter, GE does some of almost everything from building nuclear reactors to owning NBC. GTE is also not a small company, but nowhere near as large as GE - not surprising since just about nobody is as large as GE, including some governments: GE had over $111 billion in revenue and over $10 billion in profit in 1999 whereas GTE had about 25% the revenue and 40% as much profit. Both of these are bigger than Microsoft in revenue, although MS had twice the profit of GTE, which has a relatively inflated market capitalization so tends to go above GE on lists of "most valuable companies on the stock market" (which sometimes get mislabled as "largest companies", which is not accurate). --- Carl ###### From: Lizard Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:09:55 -0800 Organization: Ferengi Academy of Business Ethics Lines: 12 Message-ID: <01HW.B5000E7300020A230653C0BC@enews.newsguy.com> References: <2zIB4.437$a5.267683@news.abs.net> <38D7F196.241E@wizvax.net> <38D800D3.45DC@wizvax.net> <38D8300B.3E3F@wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-782.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Hogwasher 2.0 (Macintosh) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1103 On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:14:58 -0800, Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote (in message ): > > No, it established clearly that you don't fuck around with Mr. Siembieda's > game. And it's worked. Nobody's screwed with them since, have they? I also think, though of course I have no proof, that it's the main reason Palladium never jumped on the CCG bandwagon -- the sure and certain knowledge that WOTC would have got them back but good. ###### From: Jerry Stratton Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Organization: Negative Space References: <38D800D3.45DC@wizvax.net> <38D8300B.3E3F@wizvax.net> <8b9fkl0rgv@news2.newsguy.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-Face: $!..L~)V627k~Fp@ojChOSX"5f@Jv=Wi;2I?!oAQgdUyNO8cFFdEefO#1jn#) v!PG?:'3/TZt/-*.7nNOij7TX9qL0j*mqZ^7qqOov0gG=Uyd9?f4:~,ce9 Message-ID: Lines: 25 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 03:30:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.130.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 953868634 24.0.130.131 (Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:30:34 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:30:34 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:998 In article <8b9fkl0rgv@news2.newsguy.com>, durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) wrote: >In article <38D8300B.3E3F@wizvax.net>, Sea Wasp >wrote: >> Not really. They WANTED money and admission of wrongdoing, and by >>deduction and observation they wanted to kill or otherwise seriously >>damage their opposition. All they managed to do was get something (the >>withdrawal of the conversion notes) that they could have gotten by >>ASKING NICELY. So basically they lost a lot of money and time over >>nothing at all. > >The original claim in this thread was that legal action could effectively >prevent the small company from publishing AD&D compatible scenarios and >such, right? The Palladium example tends to prove that point. Not really. The claim you're quoting is that a complete lack of litigation would also have gotten Palladium what they wanted. There is nothing from the settlement to show that, had WOTC been unwilling to take it out on being asked nicely, they would still have caved on being sued. Jerry http://www.hoboes.com/jerry/ ###### From: Lizard Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:55:02 -0800 Organization: Ferengi Academy of Business Ethics Lines: 28 Message-ID: <01HW.B5004336000E6F850653C0BC@enews.newsguy.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-179.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Hogwasher 2.0 (Macintosh) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1104 On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:27:30 -0800, SD Anderson wrote (in message <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com>): > Reasons why Dancy's stated intent to have d20 replace other game > systmes is doomed to fail. > > Ars Magica Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? > > Black Ops (GURPS version)/Bureau 13/Men In Black Played under d20 > rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? > > Deadlands Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? > > Rifts Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? > Etc. deleted. But I can write up rules for "Cyber-elves and Hacker Trolls Using D20", and put them on the net. If I do them right, it will be obvious to anyone how to use the setting information in Shadowrun to use with my 'D20 Decking' rules. Add a long list of Cyberware in D20 terms ("This cyber-arm has +4 Armor Class and gives +2 Dex to the arm it is attached to") and there you go. D20 Shadowrun. Now, yes, I can do this with FUDGE or GURPS or anything else -- and people have. The advantage will be the 'installed base', as many others have called it. ###### From: Lizard Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:23:07 -0800 Organization: Ferengi Academy of Business Ethics Lines: 26 Message-ID: <01HW.B50049CB000FFB720653C0BC@enews.newsguy.com> References: <20000322094522.02106.00003520@ng-fz1.aol.com> <20000322142141.15548.00007110@ng-de1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-509.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Hogwasher 2.0 (Macintosh) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1113 On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:21:41 -0800, Steve Miller wrote (in message <20000322142141.15548.00007110@ng-de1.aol.com>): > (That was *the* fatal error that GDW made back then, IMO. Both the > 'Dangerous Dimensions' name and at least one logo that I saw were obvious > attempts to lean on D&D's status in the marketplace. They further > telegraphed this intent with some of the early ad copy. The whole "we will > bury you" attitude from GDW and Gygax & Co. that surrounded 'Dangerous > Journeys' would have brought a response from even the most well-mannered > corporate management. Of course, a *smart* management team would have > realized the game was a dog and that it would sink on its own...) One of the classic cases of seriously overhpying and seriously underdelivering. I think the game would have sold better if the hype had been less -- many people picked it up expecting something truly amazing, and instead found warmed-over second-generation mechanics linked to confusing and unfamiliar terms. I honestly do not know what TSR was so scared of...as you note, the game was a major bow-wow from the get-go. (I knew something was wrong when, in a fit of generosity, I gave the game a ludicrously high "B+" rating on GDW's AOL board, way-back-when, and was ravenously attacked for my 'errors' and 'misconceptions' by the resident GDW staffer. Evidently, they really believed that turkeys could fly, and when early reports were trickling in that their dream team had laid an egg, they went into panic mode. They bet the farm, and lost. A pity.) ###### From: "JReynolds" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> <2zIB4.437$a5.267683@news.abs.net> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 26 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:18:06 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.33.188.93 X-Complaints-To: abuse@toad.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 953943334 162.33.188.93 (Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:15:34 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:15:34 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1176 Wayne Shaw wrote in message ... >Or alternitively, you live in fantasy and I in reality if we insist on >playing the dozens on it. I see no virtue in butting one's head into >brick walls; it's far too unlikely to do much to the wall and quite >likely to do damage to the head. Which is why nothing ever changes. Too many people unwilling to buck the status quo, even when the status quo is dead wrong. >A nice theory. Fantasy usually is. Now, now, that's not very kind. Just because MY reality doesn't jibe with YOUR reality doesn't make mine any more a fantasy then yours. Since I can clearly show the actions of the few, or even the one, has greatly influenced corporations and governments, I could very well say the same thing to you. Doing nothing is a fantasy, because by doing nothing you are doing something. Back to the issue at hand though... we now return you to your regularly scheduled discourse on D20, Open Source, and such, already in progress.... :-) ###### From: "Ryan S. Dancey" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 03:17:13 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1589 rjk2000 wrote in message news:i5EA4.5101 > How can a system be really "Open Source" if it does not allow other game > publishers to publish character creation rules? You have two choices: Use the system with the Open Gaming License in a completely open and unrestricted way. or Use the system with the Open Gaming License >and< use the D20 System trademark, but accept certain restrictions. Your option. Ryan ###### From: "Ryan S. Dancey" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 03:20:59 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1594 Bryant Berggren wrote in message > So I, as a small press publisher, decide to write D&D modules. I > *already could do this* legally. You cannot. You would be publishing an unauthorized derivative work, and could be restrained from doing so. > I can even say put a notice on my > module cover blurbs: "This adventure is compatible with Dungeons & > Dragons(tm). Dungeons & Dragons is a trademark of TSR, Inc.; the > author is not affiliated with TSR, Inc. in any way." You cannot. You would be misappropriating use of a trademark, and could be restrained from doing so. That's the >point< of copyright and trademark law. If you could do what you're suggesting, there would be no need for either type of law. Ryan ###### From: "Ryan S. Dancey" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 03:29:19 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1582 SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:8b4gc7 > Ars Magica Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? According to the designer of that game, Johnathan Tweet, he would greatly have preferred to use D&D with modifications than create a complete game from scratch. Therefore, I'd answer "acceptable". > Deadlands Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? > > Black Ops (GURPS version)/Bureau 13/Men In Black Played under d20 > rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? We'll have to see what inventive rules people create to support these types of genres. > Rifts Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? If someone wants to tangle with Palladium over adding "Mega Damage" to a product, I think D20 would work great for RIFTS. > Shadowrun Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? My opinion of Shadowrun is that it is a game that succeeds in spite of, not because of, it's game system. The Shadowrun setting carries the game; any suitably debugged game system could be exchanged for the SR native game mechanics and nothing substantial would be lost. > Star Trek Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? My opinion is that the Icon system used by Last Unicorn is very, very close to D20 in concept anyway, and switching to D20 would probably require less than a half page of conversion notes. Very acceptable. > WoD Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? The GURPS conversions demonstrate how easy it is to take the World of Darkness and replace the game system without destroying the flavor of the settings themselves. > To pull it off, WotC/Hasbro has to run the other game makers out of > business first. Despite Hasbro's money, I don't think they can get > away with it if they tried. That is not accurate. To make the OGL concept work, consumers have to decide that they'd rather have Open Games rather than Closed Games. If they so choose, consumer preference will have more effect on game publishers than Wizards or Hasbro ever could. Ryan ###### Message-ID: <38E21F52.5CCC90BF@home.com> From: Allister Huggins Reply-To: alhuggins@REMOVESPAMhome.com Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:10:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.114.17.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.on.home.com 954331847 24.114.17.147 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:10:47 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:10:47 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1646 "Ryan S. Dancey" wrote: > > Bryant Berggren wrote in message > > > So I, as a small press publisher, decide to write D&D modules. I > > *already could do this* legally. > > You cannot. You would be publishing an unauthorized derivative work, and > could be restrained from doing so. I'm pretty sure he could write it. THACO and other concepts found in the PHB/DMG aren't under the auspices of either trademark or copyright. > > I can even say put a notice on my > > module cover blurbs: "This adventure is compatible with Dungeons & > > Dragons(tm). Dungeons & Dragons is a trademark of TSR, Inc.; the > > author is not affiliated with TSR, Inc. in any way." > > You cannot. You would be misappropriating use of a trademark, and could be > restrained from doing so. > > That's the >point< of copyright and trademark law. If you could do what > you're suggesting, there would be no need for either type of law. This I agree with. The small company could not use the Dungeon and Dragons trademark from what I have read and understood of trademark law. Allister H. ###### From: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 29 Mar 2000 14:53:05 GMT Organization: Semiotic Marines, Altoid Squad Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8bt5ch011ea@news2.newsguy.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-590.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!novia!165.113.238.17.MISMATCH!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1549 In article , Ryan S. Dancey wrote: >SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:8b4gc7 >> Ars Magica Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? > >According to the designer of that game, Johnathan Tweet, he would greatly >have preferred to use D&D with modifications than create a complete game >from scratch. Therefore, I'd answer "acceptable". *chortle* Always risky to cite an authority when the person you're arguing with can walk down the hall and talk to that authority... Hey, Ryan, I know you're a busy man, but now I'm wondering what he'd say about using D20 for Over the Edge. -- Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." -- Eleanor Roosevelt ###### From: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 29 Mar 2000 14:56:26 GMT Organization: Semiotic Marines, Altoid Squad Lines: 32 Message-ID: <8bt5iq01e3f@news1.newsguy.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-612.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1550 In article , Ryan S. Dancey wrote: >rjk2000 wrote in message news:i5EA4.5101 > >> How can a system be really "Open Source" if it does not allow other game >> publishers to publish character creation rules? > >You have two choices: > >Use the system with the Open Gaming License in a completely open and >unrestricted way. > >or > >Use the system with the Open Gaming License >and< use the D20 System >trademark, but accept certain restrictions. It's probably worth noting here that one can use the OGL and make sure one has one's /own/ trademarks covered. I don't actually think it'd be any tougher to publish something and keep WotC from simply repubbing it than it will be for WotC to keep me from republishing a PHB under my own label. One keen thing about the OGL is that it can't give WotC any more protection than it gives me, and WotC has to come up with a model that keeps them comfortable. -- Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." -- Eleanor Roosevelt ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 35 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:03:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954342185 204.101.128.170 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:03:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:03:05 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1641 Ryan S. Dancey wrote in message news:se3r53n2ead6@corp.supernews.com... >> Ars Magica Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? > According to the designer of that game, Johnathan Tweet, ...who currently works for WotC/Hasbro/whatever and thus cannot necessarily be trusted to freely speak his mind on the subject... > he would greatly have preferred to use D&D with modifications than > create a complete game from scratch. [...] > To make the OGL concept work, consumers have to decide that > they'd rather have Open Games rather than Closed Games. What the fuck *IS* an "open" game vs. a "closed" game?! You're very painfully obviously trying to draw a link between "open source" and "open game", but the link makes no sense whatsoever. There is *NOTHING* in *ANY* RPG that even remotely resembles the role source code plays in software. "Open source" is the process of explicitly taking the traditionally secret, hidden part of developed software and putting it out into the open. There is no traditionally secret, hidden part of pencil-and-paper RPGs. Can you explain just what the fuck an "open" or "closed" game is without resorting to marketroid-speak?! (And could you then tell the one about how FUDGE isn't truly open although you can actually supply a FUDGE-based game *WITH* character generation and advancement while still using the FUDGE name?) ###### From: berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:37:48 +0200 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inc=E1nus?= Lines: 18 Message-ID: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin037.iskon.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 954344269 28527 195.29.170.176 (29 Mar 2000 15:37:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Mar 2000 15:37:49 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!feeder.qis.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!berislav.lopac Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1649 Ryan S. Dancey wrote: > > How can a system be really "Open Source" if it does not allow other game > > publishers to publish character creation rules? > > You have two choices: > > Use the system with the Open Gaming License in a completely open and > unrestricted way. Now, why would *anyone* do that? -- Incanus: incanus@incanus.com Incanus homepage: http://www.incanus.com Incanus Games: http://www.incanus.com/games/ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 29 Mar 2000 23:54:09 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 82 Message-ID: <6uaejh788u.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 954366850 1049 10.0.3.2 (29 Mar 2000 21:54:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Mar 2000 21:54:10 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1651 "Michael T. Richter" writes: > Ryan S. Dancey wrote in message > news:se3r53n2ead6@corp.supernews.com... > > > To make the OGL concept work, consumers have to decide that > > they'd rather have Open Games rather than Closed Games. > What the fuck *IS* an "open" game vs. a "closed" game?! You're very > painfully obviously trying to draw a link between "open source" and "open > game", but the link makes no sense whatsoever. Full agreement, no sense. This "Open Source Game" stuff lacks all essential features of Open Source programming, as defined by the terms inventor Bruce Perens and his buddy Eric Raymond. > There is *NOTHING* in *ANY* RPG that even remotely resembles the role source > code plays in software. Here I disagree. Source in software (as opposed to binary-only) is about modifiability. As any RPG is modifiable they quasi come all with source. > "Open source" is the process of explicitly taking > the traditionally secret, hidden part of developed software and putting it > out into the open. Actually Open Source is about more than just giving out the source. That was already the case in normal public domain code, which never was as successfull as OS. The crucial core of OS is that the author encourages that people make their changes "where it itches them" and then _returns_the_changes_ to the author as _contributions_ to the development of later releases of the official code. This makes anyone who "has an itch" into an co-author und the original author to the maintainer of the code (Linus Torwalds claims to have written about 5% of the code one gets as Linux 2.2, 95% is contributions). It is this "grow by accumulation" model, that was pioneered in Linux and then recognized by Raymond as the base of its success (in his "Cathedral and Bazaar" [1] paper) and then formalised under the name Open Source [2] by Perens, that makes OS an alternative development model to traditional software firms. [1] http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ [2] http://www.opensource.org/osd.html > There is no traditionally secret, hidden part of > pencil-and-paper RPGs. More important for the discussion here: there is no hint of an "accumulate users changes into the next revision of the official product" mentality visible. So this claimed OSG is simply not OS, not in any way. Note that even the Text in [2] is in Version 1.7, as it itsself has been improved by such contributions, making Perens the maintainer and not full-author any more. > (And could you then tell the one about how FUDGE isn't truly open although > you can actually supply a FUDGE-based game *WITH* character generation and > advancement while still using the FUDGE name?) Does FUDGE have a policy of taking in various peoples hose rules and using them for FUDGE 1.1, takingin more rules for 1.2, ...? If so it would be open in the sense of Open Source. Else it is not, the same as D&D3 is not. Simply allowing anyone to publish an derivative work would be regarded as public domain in software, and is despised as "forking" into incompatible and seperately maintained versions. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Linue User Environment)? ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:20:23 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-049.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1770 In article , "Michael T. Richter" wrote: >Can you explain just what the fuck an "open" or "closed" game is without >resorting to marketroid-speak?! As nearly as I can tell, in practical terms the major difference is WotC's ability to use neat stuff created by others without compensating them. I hate to sound cynical about it, but that's about it. Zero-cost licensing is good. I assume that there'll be a fair amount of trading around and building on each others' work among whoever takes part. But the big winner here seems (to me) to be WotC - if anyone comes up wtih the greatest thing since sliced bread, then WotC can put it to work. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### From: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 29 Mar 2000 17:23:30 GMT Organization: Semiotic Marines, Altoid Squad Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8bte6i01jv5@news1.newsguy.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-398.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1727 In article , Michael T. Richter wrote: >Ryan S. Dancey wrote in message >news:se3r53n2ead6@corp.supernews.com... >>> Ars Magica Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? > >> According to the designer of that game, Johnathan Tweet, > >...who currently works for WotC/Hasbro/whatever and thus cannot necessarily >be trusted to freely speak his mind on the subject... That's really insulting, Michael. I know Jonathan Tweet. He would not lie. If he didn't think Ars would work with D20 rules, he might refrain from comment, but he wouldn't lie. -- Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." -- Eleanor Roosevelt ###### From: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 29 Mar 2000 17:26:07 GMT Organization: Semiotic Marines, Altoid Squad Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8btebf01k2u@news1.newsguy.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-405.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1730 In article <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com>, Bruce Baugh wrote: >In article , "Michael T. Richter" > wrote: > >>Can you explain just what the fuck an "open" or "closed" game is without >>resorting to marketroid-speak?! > >As nearly as I can tell, in practical terms the major difference is >WotC's ability to use neat stuff created by others without compensating >them. > >I hate to sound cynical about it, but that's about it. Zero-cost >licensing is good. I assume that there'll be a fair amount of trading >around and building on each others' work among whoever takes part. But >the big winner here seems (to me) to be WotC - if anyone comes up wtih >the greatest thing since sliced bread, then WotC can put it to work. Nah. There's nothing at all stopping me from getting my own trademarks on anything I do that uses the D20 system; I can ignore the D20 trademark all together. So I publish Bunnies and Barristers, and use the D20 system, and put trademarks in all the right places -- this is even easier because WotC has already given me an example of how to do it with the D20 license. The cynical part of your first paragraph is the word WotC. There is no preferential treatment in the OGL for WotC, and /anyone/ can use a license patterened after the D20 license. -- Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." -- Eleanor Roosevelt ###### Message-ID: <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:27:53 -0500 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-80.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-80.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 29 Mar 2000 12:29:55 -0500, cm-24-29-53-80.nycap.rr.com Lines: 24 XPident: news X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!uio.no!Norway.EU.net!EU.net!den-news-01.qwest.net!qwest!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-53-80.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1848 Bruce Baugh wrote: > > In article , "Michael T. Richter" wrote: > > >Can you explain just what the fuck an "open" or "closed" game is without > >resorting to marketroid-speak?! > > As nearly as I can tell, in practical terms the major difference is > WotC's ability to use neat stuff created by others without compensating > them. > > I hate to sound cynical about it, but that's about it. Zero-cost > licensing is good. I assume that there'll be a fair amount of trading > around and building on each others' work among whoever takes part. But > the big winner here seems (to me) to be WotC - if anyone comes up wtih > the greatest thing since sliced bread, then WotC can put it to work. Not if you copyright/trademark the stuff that makes it better. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:39:55 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8btf5b$31s_012@enews.newsguy.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <8btebf01k2u@news1.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-522.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1769 In article <8btebf01k2u@news1.newsguy.com>, durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) wrote: >The cynical part of your first paragraph is the word WotC. There is no >preferential treatment in the OGL for WotC, and /anyone/ can use a license >patterened after the D20 license. Agreed. That's why I said "major effect" - anything they do will have more consequence, even when they're doing precisely the same sort of thing. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8bte6i01jv5@news1.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 21 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:40:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954355234 204.101.128.170 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:40:34 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:40:34 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1828 Bryant Durrell wrote in message news:8bte6i01jv5@news1.newsguy.com... >>>> Ars Magica Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? >>> According to the designer of that game, Johnathan Tweet, >> ...who currently works for WotC/Hasbro/whatever and thus cannot >> necessarily be trusted to freely speak his mind on the subject... > That's really insulting, Michael. I know Jonathan Tweet. He would > not lie. If he didn't think Ars would work with D20 rules, he > might refrain from comment, but he wouldn't lie. Which part of "necessarily" didn't you understand? The fact is that *I* don't know Mr. Tweet. Nor do, probably, most of the people reading this forum. Having a WotC/Hasbro rep say that a WotC/Hasbro employee said something nice about a WotC/Hasbro product isn't exactly an earth-shattering and persuasive revelation -- and this assumes that the person *REPORTING* Mr. Tweet's words was both accurate *and* honest. ###### From: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 29 Mar 2000 20:00:38 GMT Organization: Semiotic Marines, Altoid Squad Lines: 47 Message-ID: <8btnd601fg1@news2.newsguy.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8bte6i01jv5@news1.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-298.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1723 In article , Michael T. Richter wrote: >Bryant Durrell wrote in message >news:8bte6i01jv5@news1.newsguy.com... >>>>> Ars Magica Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? > >>>> According to the designer of that game, Johnathan Tweet, > >>> ...who currently works for WotC/Hasbro/whatever and thus cannot >>> necessarily be trusted to freely speak his mind on the subject... > >> That's really insulting, Michael. I know Jonathan Tweet. He would >> not lie. If he didn't think Ars would work with D20 rules, he >> might refrain from comment, but he wouldn't lie. > >Which part of "necessarily" didn't you understand? > >The fact is that *I* don't know Mr. Tweet. Nor do, probably, most of the >people reading this forum. Having a WotC/Hasbro rep say that a WotC/Hasbro >employee said something nice about a WotC/Hasbro product isn't exactly an >earth-shattering and persuasive revelation -- and this assumes that the >person *REPORTING* Mr. Tweet's words was both accurate *and* honest. Mmm. By a like token, I don't know that you're not actually working for White Wolf on the sly; it's /possible/ that your net.rep has been carefully built as an independent voice so that you could effectively tear down WotC when something important -- like this -- came up. My personal belief is that you're not doing this on anyone's behalf. Prisoner's Dilemma suggests that it's in my best interests to trust until given a reason not to trust; so does my culture's tradition of justice. So does logic; Ryan is intelligent, and does not keep Jonathan Tweet in a small box. If he were lying, the truth would get out eventually. The damage done to rational discussion by assuming malicious intent as a base premise seems to me greater than the damage done by trusting until proven otherwise. But I stray off topic. -- Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." -- Eleanor Roosevelt ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:30:21 -0500 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 10 Message-ID: <38E267DD.1FF8CFBE@myriad.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Mar 2000 21:24:06 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!news-feeds.jump.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1661 Saw a module at the last Con that reminded me of how things used to be... It was an old one by some independent publisher, and it had a note on the cover that it was a generic module, usable in any fantasy system... and characters should be 5th-7th level, with good alignments. :-) Ah, the good old days. :-) Kiz ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 15 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:31:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 954361865 166.82.1.7 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:31:05 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:31:05 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1713 Michael T. Richter wrote: > >(And could you then tell the one about how FUDGE isn't truly open although >you can actually supply a FUDGE-based game *WITH* character generation and >advancement while still using the FUDGE name?) Not only that, but you can read all of Fudge for free on the internet - that's pretty open. Will you be able to read all of D&D 3rd edition on the net for free? -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | sos@vnet.net | "Seek Grailo, Even Better Than the True Grail" Plymouth, NH, USA | www.io.com/~sos | -James Thurber sums up the 20th Century ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc From: Matt Goodman X-Sender: mgood@shell3.shore.net Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 23 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:58:50 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.244.124.103 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net X-Trace: news.shore.net 954363533 207.244.124.103 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:58:53 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:58:53 EST Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.shore.net!shell3.shore.net!mgood Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1849 Ryan made very clear at his talk at GTS that the D&D trademark wasn't going to be licensed for RPGs (except in one case), so that's not an option. Just d20 is being "open" licensed, not D&D. While I think it's pretty clear that FUDGE is more open in a real world/common sense view, I think Ryan brought up some interesting points on the FUDGE license that _I_ certainly hadn't considered. Not that it would discourage me from doing a FUDGE game. Matt On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Steffan O'Sullivan wrote: > Michael T. Richter wrote: > > > >(And could you then tell the one about how FUDGE isn't truly open although > >you can actually supply a FUDGE-based game *WITH* character generation and > >advancement while still using the FUDGE name?) > > Not only that, but you can read all of Fudge for free on the internet - > that's pretty open. Will you be able to read all of D&D 3rd edition on > the net for free? ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:15:10 -0500 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 17 Message-ID: <38E2725E.6AFCE38B@myriad.net> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Mar 2000 22:08:55 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!cyclone.pbi.net!207.207.0.26!nntp.giganews.com!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1659 "Michael T. Richter" wrote: > > Matt Goodman wrote in message > news:Pine.GSO.4.21.0003291555560.19537-100000@shell3.shore.net... > > While I think it's pretty clear that FUDGE is more open in a real > > world/common sense view, I think Ryan brought up some interesting > > points on the FUDGE license that _I_ certainly hadn't considered. > > What points were those? That Steffan wants you to sign a license that says > he doesn't risk legal hassles because you do a "Disney Characters Hot Sex > RPG" game? That doesn't close anything except gratuitous lawsuits. Hm. I really think that "Disney Characters Hot Sex RPG" ought to be the next NUELOW setting. :-) Kiz ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8bte6i01jv5@news1.newsguy.com> <8btnd601fg1@news2.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 57 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:21:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954364888 204.101.128.170 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:21:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:21:28 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1847 Bryant Durrell wrote in message news:8btnd601fg1@news2.newsguy.com... >> The fact is that *I* don't know Mr. Tweet. Nor do, probably, most >> of the people reading this forum. Having a WotC/Hasbro rep say >> that a WotC/Hasbro employee said something nice about a WotC/Hasbro >> product isn't exactly an earth-shattering and persuasive revelation >> -- and this assumes that the person *REPORTING* Mr. Tweet's words >> was both accurate *and* honest. > Mmm. > By a like token, I don't know that you're not actually working for White > Wolf on the sly; it's /possible/ that your net.rep has been carefully > built as an independent voice so that you could effectively tear down > WotC when something important -- like this -- came up. That is always a possibility. At some point you have to juggle probabilities and data points (which, sadly, most people are very bad at doing) and make some conclusions. One data point, however, is that I'm not seeing Mr. Tweet saying this. I'm seeing someone else paraphrasing him. Given that this person essentially plays the role of marketroid (given his other visible output) that's a data point in favour of at least inaccuracy and at most a plain lie. (I hold neither the brains nor the ethics of marketing people in high esteem after years of having to work with them.) > If he were lying, the truth would get out eventually. If he were lying the truth would get out eventually, yes. When was the last time you met a short-sighted person? Especially in a marketing or net.rep position? And this doesn't even begin to cover the possibility that Ryan is simply mistaken, that he misheard or misunderstood something that Mr. Tweet said. And it doesn't cover the possibility that we're hearing an "I heard that so-and-so-heard Jonathon Tweet say [...]" story conflated into "I heard Jonathon Tweet say [...]". In total, the statement is unpersuasive. There are too many assumptions that have to be made for the statement to be unequivocally true: - JT is being honest (I give this a high probability) - RD is being honest (I give this a moderately high probability) - RD actually directly heard the statement (I have no opinion) - RD correctly understood the statement (he's a marketroid -- that lowers the odds) - RD correctly reported the statement (he's a marketroid -- you know the drill) > But I stray off topic. Since when is this new to rgfm? :-) But we can bring this around back to the subject matter by asking, again, what does "open gaming" actually *MEAN* (sans market-speak)? And how is the D20 system "open" if FUDGE is "closed"? ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:22:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954364969 204.101.128.170 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:22:49 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:22:49 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1839 Matt Goodman wrote in message news:Pine.GSO.4.21.0003291555560.19537-100000@shell3.shore.net... > While I think it's pretty clear that FUDGE is more open in a real > world/common sense view, I think Ryan brought up some interesting > points on the FUDGE license that _I_ certainly hadn't considered. What points were those? That Steffan wants you to sign a license that says he doesn't risk legal hassles because you do a "Disney Characters Hot Sex RPG" game? That doesn't close anything except gratuitous lawsuits. ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:14:29 -0500 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 17 Message-ID: <38E28045.6F2B6E8A@myriad.net> References: <8bu0ja$49p$3@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Mar 2000 23:08:13 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!news-feeds.jump.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1656 SD Anderson wrote: > > Michael T. Richter wrote: > > What points were those? That Steffan wants you to sign a > > license that says he doesn't risk legal hassles because you do a > > "Disney Characters Hot Sex RPG" game? That doesn't close > > anything except gratuitous lawsuits. > > Just out of curiousity, implicit in this argument is the idea > that WotC's open game license doesn't have any such legal > protections. How does Hasbro intend to protect itself from Disney > Character Hot Sex lawsuits without a similar provision? With lawyers. :-) Kiz ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 29 Mar 2000 22:24:01 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8btvq1$49p$1@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mhakm.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954368641 4409 149.174.242.225 (29 Mar 2000 22:24:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Mar 2000 22:24:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1724 Ryan Dancy wrote: >> So I, as a small press publisher, decide to write D&D modules. >> I *already could do this* legally. > You cannot. You would be publishing an unauthorized derivative > work, and could be restrained from doing so. Legally he can write the work, NOT use your company's trademarks and/or other intellectual properties. Game RULES cannot be copyrighted. If he uses his words to describe your rules, he's free and clear. If he plagiarizes your words to do this, you can nail him. That of course is Ivory Tower law. In real world law, if a jury decides it's too much like your stuff, they can nullify that Ivory Tower legalese, so he's advised to make a few superficial changes just to persuade a jury his work is independent. But anyone can ignore those changes and run the work under your game, IF they want to use YOUR rules. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 29 Mar 2000 22:34:10 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8bu0d2$49p$2@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mhakm.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954369250 4409 149.174.242.225 (29 Mar 2000 22:34:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Mar 2000 22:34:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1712 Michael T. Richter wrote: > But we can bring this around back to the subject matter by > asking, again, what does "open gaming" actually *MEAN* (sans > market-speak)? And how is the D20 system "open" if FUDGE is > "closed"? The cynical explanation is that "Open" = any WotC designed system WotC designates as "Open" and that all other systems ESPECIALLY ones designed by other game companies are "Closed". Therefore, no matter how open (lower case) FUDGE may be, it cannot become Open (upper case) until and unless WotC acquires it and DECLARES that it's now "Open". ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 29 Mar 2000 22:37:30 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 10 Message-ID: <8bu0ja$49p$3@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mhakm.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954369450 4409 149.174.242.225 (29 Mar 2000 22:37:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Mar 2000 22:37:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1721 Michael T. Richter wrote: > What points were those? That Steffan wants you to sign a > license that says he doesn't risk legal hassles because you do a > "Disney Characters Hot Sex RPG" game? That doesn't close > anything except gratuitous lawsuits. Just out of curiousity, implicit in this argument is the idea that WotC's open game license doesn't have any such legal protections. How does Hasbro intend to protect itself from Disney Character Hot Sex lawsuits without a similar provision? ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 29 Mar 2000 22:41:33 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 10 Message-ID: <8bu0qt$49p$4@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mhakm.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954369693 4409 149.174.242.225 (29 Mar 2000 22:41:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Mar 2000 22:41:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1725 Ryan Dancy wrote: > You have two choices: > Use the system with the Open Gaming License in a completely > open and unrestricted way. > or > Use the system with the Open Gaming License >and< use the D20 > System trademark, but accept certain restrictions. More than 2 choices of course. A third being don't bother with the entanglements of the OGL and use another system for play. ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:18:48 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8bu30o$1cs_002@enews.newsguy.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8bte6i01jv5@news1.newsguy.com> <8btnd601fg1@news2.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-031.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1771 In article , "Michael T. Richter" wrote: >But we can bring this around back to the subject matter by asking, again, >what does "open gaming" actually *MEAN* (sans market-speak)? And how is the >D20 system "open" if FUDGE is "closed"? The essence is the right of reuse. You get stuff from others via the license, and some categories of stuff you put out are also available for reuse. I'm too lazy to track through the details of which must fall in that category and which can, but that's the general idea. WotC gets the ball rolling with the D&D engine, and others throw in their various things, and others kitbash as well as creating their own work. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### Message-ID: <38E29B6C.E15228A5@fudgerpg.com> From: Ann Dupuis Reply-To: ghostgames@fudgerpg.com Organization: Grey Ghost Press, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <8bu0ja$49p$3@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:06:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.32.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 954374813 24.147.32.236 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:06:53 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:06:53 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1676 SD Anderson wrote: > Just out of curiousity, implicit in this argument is the idea > that WotC's open game license doesn't have any such legal > protections. How does Hasbro intend to protect itself from Disney > Character Hot Sex lawsuits without a similar provision? According to Ryan's response at the GAMA Trade Show Open Gaming License seminar, in which someone asked this question, their response will be roughly the same as Paramount's response to gay Kirk/Spock fan fiction.... "Huh? We know nothing about it, have nothing to do with it...." I must admit, I wasn't quite satisfied with that answer. I know that the Fudge commercial license doesn't protect Steffan (or any Fudge publishers) from being sued by anyone who wants to sue us for any reason, but it *does* offer some measure of protection in that the commercial Fudge licensee does have to put his signature on a piece of paper stating that he will not publish any Fudge derivatives that are illegal (due to third-party trademark infringement, libel, and similar things that are against the law). -- Best regards, Ann Dupuis (ghostgames@fudgerpg.com) Grey Ghost Press, Inc. (http://www.fudgerpg.com) "Just what CAN you do with ten million Magic Points?" - Anonymous Bosch. (From the "Gatecrasher" roleplaying game; http://www.fudgerpg.com/gtcrasher) ###### Message-ID: <38E29CDC.8D9B24F3@fudgerpg.com> From: Ann Dupuis Reply-To: ghostgames@fudgerpg.com Organization: Grey Ghost Press, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6uaejh788u.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:13:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.32.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 954375181 24.147.32.236 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:13:01 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:13:01 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!triton.skycache.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1685 Neil Franklin wrote: > Does FUDGE have a policy of taking in various peoples hose rules and > using them for FUDGE 1.1, takingin more rules for 1.2, ...? If so it > would be open in the sense of Open Source. Else it is not, the same as > D&D3 is not. It did -- the Addenda published with the 1995 version is a perfect example of this. However, there doesn't really seem to be an organized/official way to incorporate Fudge fan stuff back into the Fudge "core" rules, currently. Maybe this is something that should be considered.... Grey Ghost Press will be publishing a "companion" book for Fudge, that will be a collection of various materials for use with Fudge -- including lots of alternative rules/techniques/etc. I was intending to let each contribute determine whether they wanted to keep the copyrights on their submissions or not (Grey Ghost's usual policy when the submissions are anything substantial, such as the magic systems in A Magical medley). Perhaps it would be better to say up front that anything that goes into the Fudge "companion" book will be placed under the Fudge legal notice, too.... I'll ask the folks on the fudge e-mail list what they think of this idea; several of them have already stated they have Fudge materials they'd like to contribute.... -- Best regards, Ann Dupuis (ghostgames@fudgerpg.com) Grey Ghost Press, Inc. (http://www.fudgerpg.com) "Just what CAN you do with ten million Magic Points?" - Anonymous Bosch. (From the "Gatecrasher" roleplaying game; http://www.fudgerpg.com/gtcrasher) ###### From: nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Mar 2000 00:45:23 GMT References: <38E2725E.6AFCE38B@myriad.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000329194523.15531.00010547@ng-de1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1752 Kiz wrote: << Hm. I really think that "Disney Characters Hot Sex RPG" ought to be the next NUELOW setting. :-) >> I am *not* living the rest of my life looking over my shoulder for Disney Hit Squads! Steve Miller Writer of Stuff And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right. I've been talking to Jesus all my life. --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me" ###### From: nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Mar 2000 00:46:49 GMT References: <8bu0ja$49p$3@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000329194649.15531.00010549@ng-de1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1760 SD Anderson wrote: << How does Hasbro intend to protect itself from Disney Character Hot Sex lawsuits without a similar provision? >> Summon Lawyer Two Black Mana, One Red Mana, One Blue Mana. Steve Miller Writer of Stuff And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right. I've been talking to Jesus all my life. --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me" ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <6uaejh788u.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 36 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:53:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 954377626 166.82.1.7 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:53:46 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:53:46 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1714 Neil Franklin wrote: > >Does FUDGE have a policy of taking in various peoples hose rules and >using them for FUDGE 1.1, takingin more rules for 1.2, ...? If so it >would be open in the sense of Open Source. Else it is not, the same as >D&D3 is not. > >Simply allowing anyone to publish an derivative work would be regarded >as public domain in software, and is despised as "forking" into >incompatible and seperately maintained versions. Well ... it's a little different in the RPG world. Forking exists but is considered a *good* thing, not despised. Anyone can write a "fork" from Fudge. If you put it on a web page and I don't find any legal problems with what you've done (i.e., trademark violations), then you can e-mail me and ask me to link to it from my web page. (Probably Ann, too.) So you can look at lots of different forks easily. So there are *plenty* of house rules available on the web for free already for Fudge. But there's lots of what you call forking, and I'm glad of it. They're all based off Fudge to some degree or another, but go in many different directions: some are very rules light, others have a lot of detail. And this is Good Thing. I wouldn't want the folks preferring rules-light to have to base theirs off of a detailed-rules write-up ... There's even a Fudge Buffy the Vampire Slayer page, you know - I'm satisfied with the trademark recognition, so I linked to it from my page - check it out if you're interested - you can get to my Fudge page from the URL below. -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | sos@vnet.net | "Seek Grailo, Even Better Than the True Grail" Plymouth, NH, USA | www.io.com/~sos | -James Thurber sums up the 20th Century ###### From: "Ryan S. Dancey" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:16:05 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1789 Berislav Lopac wrote in message news:1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN% > > Use the system with the Open Gaming License in a completely open and > > unrestricted way. > > > > Now, why would *anyone* do that? You've got a really killer idea for a world; or maybe just one really great story you want to tell. Why bother creating a whole new RPG from scratch, risking the danger that you'll screw up and create an unbalanced/unfun game, or maybe stray into a grey area out of either ignorance or negligence and get sued? Or, you can use the world's most thorougly tested, popular, and proven system >for free<. That's an excellent reason to do so. Ryan ###### From: herogames@aol.com (Hero Games) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Mar 2000 04:02:58 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000329230258.13590.00002192@ng-cp1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!cleanfeed.inet.tele.dQ!news.netscum.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1755 << Or, you can use the world's most thorougly tested, popular, and proven system >for free<. That's an excellent reason to do so. >> How can the brand-new D20 system be "the world's most thoroughly tested, popular, and proven system" if it has yet to be released? -- Steve Peterson, Hero Games, www.herogames.com ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Mar 2000 05:46:58 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000330004658.13628.00002317@ng-cp1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1754 Ryan Dancey wrote: >Bryant Berggren wrote in message > >> So I, as a small press publisher, decide to write D&D modules. I >> *already could do this* legally. > >You cannot. You would be publishing an unauthorized derivative work, and >could be restrained from doing so. Bzzt. Wrong. Since you guys don't have a patent (and couldn't get a legitimate one) for D&D's mechanics anyone can publish something derived from the mechanics. They'd just have to avoid any obvious derivative of your copyrighted text -- which, so long as they use only generic and newly created creatures and races, shouldn't be a problem. [re: using "D&D compatible", etc.] >You cannot. You would be misappropriating use of a trademark, and could be >restrained from doing so. This, on the other hand, is correct. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: "S. John Ross" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 30 Mar 2000 05:52:45 GMT Organization: Diogenes Studios Lines: 35 Message-ID: <01bf9a0c$361cb7c0$3352e0ce@john---sandra> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6uaejh788u.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Trace: hiram.io.com 954395565 24190 206.224.82.51 (30 Mar 2000 05:52:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@io.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!news-feeds.jump.net!solomon.io.com!hiram.io.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1787 | > What the fuck *IS* an "open" game vs. a "closed" game?! You're very | > painfully obviously trying to draw a link between "open source" and "open | > game", but the link makes no sense whatsoever. | | Full agreement, no sense. This "Open Source Game" stuff lacks all | essential features of Open Source programming, as defined by the | terms inventor Bruce Perens and his buddy Eric Raymond. Yeah, but is it just me, or are a lot of people really dense on the topic of metaphor, here? Open Source is being used as a metaphor; it's not meant to be a literal description of anything. Get over it. I know Eric Raymond, and he's a sweet guy with a great sense of humor. You wouldn't see HIM picking at a metaphor like this ... | Does FUDGE have a policy of taking in various peoples hose rules and | using them for FUDGE 1.1, takingin more rules for 1.2, ...? If so it | would be open in the sense of Open Source. Else it is not, the same as | D&D3 is not. Speaking as somebody who's having his ideas absorbed into the upcoming edition of FUDGE, I'd have to say "Yep. Fudge does exactly that." | Simply allowing anyone to publish an derivative work would be regarded | as public domain in software, and is despised as "forking" into | incompatible and seperately maintained versions. And picking at a metaphor would be regarded as really, really, tragically geeky by me. || S. John Ross || Husband · Cook · Writer || In That Order || http://www.io.com/~sjohn/fonts.htm - FONTS FOR GAMERS ###### From: Alan Kellogg Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:18:35 -0800 Organization: CTS Network Services Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <20000329230258.13590.00002192@ng-cp1.aol.com> X-Trace: thoth.cts.com 954397116 78406 216.120.0.180 (30 Mar 2000 06:18:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@cts.com User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.cybercity.dk!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!alpha.sky.net!mercury.cts.com!thoth.cts.com!mythusmage Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1830 In article <20000329230258.13590.00002192@ng-cp1.aol.com>, herogames@aol.com (Hero Games) wrote: > << Or, you can use the world's most thorougly tested, popular, and proven > system >for free<. That's an excellent reason to do so. > >> > > > How can the brand-new D20 system be "the world's most thoroughly tested, > popular, and proven system" if it has yet to be released? > -- Steve Peterson, Hero Games, www.herogames.com The only thing new about it is the name. It's the DnD engine cleaned up and applied to everything where task resolution is a matter of chance. Sort of like standardizing characteristics in WFRP. Alan ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 06:24:01 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8burtl$tho$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8bte6i01jv5@news1.newsguy.com> <8btnd601fg1@news2.newsguy.com> <8bu30o$1cs_002@enews.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.16.16 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Mar 30 06:24:01 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x22.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.192.16.16 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsd_anderson Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!frnkge1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1701 In article <8bu30o$1cs_002@enews.newsguy.com>, bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) wrote: > In article , "Michael T. Richter" wrote: > > >But we can bring this around back to the subject matter by asking, again, > >what does "open gaming" actually *MEAN* (sans market-speak)? And how is the > >D20 system "open" if FUDGE is "closed"? > > The essence is the right of reuse. You get stuff from others via the > license, and some categories of stuff you put out are also available for > reuse. I'm too lazy to track through the details of which must fall in > that category and which can, but that's the general idea. WotC gets the > ball rolling with the D&D engine, and others throw in their various > things, and others kitbash as well as creating their own work. The Counter Reformation may have started. GURPS Castle Falkenstein will be joined by GURPS Deadlands according to the Daily Illuminator. Good God, Doug Berry's sig file may be the truth! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: voxel@theramp.net (Bryant Berggren) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 06:25:58 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 59 Message-ID: <38e2e9b0.446359759@news.theramp.net> References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1762 On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 03:20:59 -0800, "Ryan S. Dancey" wrote: >Bryant Berggren wrote in message > >> So I, as a small press publisher, decide to write D&D modules. I >> *already could do this* legally. > > You cannot. You would be publishing an unauthorized derivative work, and > could be restrained from doing so. Maybe. Consider, for a moment, exactly what would be "deriving" here? We're talking about an adventure module -- typically, something that doesn't need to quote passages from the rulebooks, and in fact counts on *not* having to quote the rulebooks to conserve space. The only thing I can imagine would be potentially "derivative" is the actual game mechanics themselves -- which the Copyright Office will be more than happy to tell you aren't subject to copyright in the first place. They even have a form letter to this effect (FL 108), from which I quote: "Copyright protection does not extend to any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in the development, merchandising, or playing of a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game on similar principles". (I'm sure you've read this document, haven't you? One would think it'd be a job requirement.) I find it difficult not to think that claiming "derivative work" in this case is grossly against the letter, spirit, and intent of the law -- it's a scenario the law seems to want explicitly NOT to be considered a violation. >> I can even say put a notice on my module cover blurbs: "This adventure is >> compatible with Dungeons & Dragons(tm). Dungeons & Dragons is a >> trademark of TSR, Inc.; the author is not affiliated with TSR, Inc. in any way." > >You cannot. You would be misappropriating use of a trademark, and could be >restrained from doing so. OK, digging deeper in my tomes of lore ... you might be right here. It's my understanding that one "misappopriates" a trademark by using it in a fashion that misleads a consumer into mistaking your product for the trademark holders; in this case, the notional book cover would clearly states I am NOT the trademark-holding entity, ergo I am not being misleading. Compare to the umpteen "compare to {insert name}(tm) brand!" generic products one sees on supermarket shelves. But at the same time, I realize "but real businesses are doing the same thing RIGHT NOW" is hardly a compelling argument of law. >That's the >point< of copyright and trademark law. If you could do what >you're suggesting, there would be no need for either type of law. I'm aware of the point of both copyright and trademark laws. I'm also aware of the point to the *restrictions* inherent in both laws. BRB ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 06:29:32 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <8bus7v$tr9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.16.16 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Mar 30 06:29:32 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x22.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.192.16.16 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsd_anderson Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1690 In article , "Ryan S. Dancey" wrote: > Berislav Lopac wrote in message > news:1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN% > > > > Use the system with the Open Gaming License in a completely open and > > > unrestricted way. > > > > > > > > Now, why would *anyone* do that? > > You've got a really killer idea for a world; or maybe just one really great > story you want to tell. Why bother creating a whole new RPG from scratch, > risking the danger that you'll screw up and create an unbalanced/unfun game, > or maybe stray into a grey area out of either ignorance or negligence and > get sued? > > Or, you can use the world's most thorougly tested, popular, and proven > system >for free<. That's an excellent reason to do so. Last I heard, the system being offered for free hasn't been released yet and has far less actual playtesting done on it so far than most games that have been around for a decade or more. That it has similarities to a game with a lot of play isn't that impressive. Most of the existing game systems deliberately chose NOT to use rules similar to that system. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:56:23 +0200 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inc=E1nus?= Lines: 16 Message-ID: <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> References: <38d3cbcd_3@news1.prserv.net> <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin085.iskon.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 954399389 27168 195.29.170.224 (30 Mar 2000 06:56:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 06:56:29 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!berislav.lopac Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1652 Sea Wasp wrote: > > I hate to sound cynical about it, but that's about it. Zero-cost > > licensing is good. I assume that there'll be a fair amount of trading > > around and building on each others' work among whoever takes part. But > > the big winner here seems (to me) to be WotC - if anyone comes up wtih > > the greatest thing since sliced bread, then WotC can put it to work. > > Not if you copyright/trademark the stuff that makes it better. But, as I understand OGL, you must make your work free for all. -- Incanus: incanus@incanus.com Incanus homepage: http://www.incanus.com Incanus Games: http://www.incanus.com/games/ ###### From: berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:56:30 +0200 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inc=E1nus?= Lines: 32 Message-ID: <1e8atwu.15sgeaqqoqsn4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin085.iskon.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 954399396 27168 195.29.170.224 (30 Mar 2000 06:56:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 06:56:36 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!berislav.lopac Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1660 Ryan S. Dancey wrote: > > > Use the system with the Open Gaming License in a completely open and > > > unrestricted way. > > > > > > > > Now, why would *anyone* do that? > > You've got a really killer idea for a world; or maybe just one really great > story you want to tell. Why bother creating a whole new RPG from scratch, > risking the danger that you'll screw up and create an unbalanced/unfun game, > or maybe stray into a grey area out of either ignorance or negligence and > get sued? > > Or, you can use the world's most thorougly tested, popular, and proven > system >for free<. That's an excellent reason to do so. *sigh* OK. Now please go and re-read Ryan's post and my reply. I snipped his second "option", about using the d20 licence; my question was solely about the using *just* the system with d20, forfeiting the licence and changing the system as I see fit. Now I ask again: *why* would *anyone* do that? I'm not talking about using the d20 in my setting; I can understand the potential benefits of that. I'm talking on the OGL *only*. -- Incanus: incanus@incanus.com Incanus homepage: http://www.incanus.com Incanus Games: http://www.incanus.com/games/ ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:47:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954427677 204.101.128.170 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:47:57 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:47:57 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1842 Ryan accidentally e-mailed the answers to my questions rather than posting them, so I've decided to transfer them here for him. >> Can you explain just what the fuck an "open" or "closed" game is >> without resorting to marketroid-speak?! > An Open Game is a game that can be freely ("freely" meaning without > any restriction whatsoever) copied, modified, and the modifications > distributed. > An Open Game is a game that allows contributors to assert ownership > of their work, and insure that any material contributed to the Open > condition cannot be later made Closed. OK. FUDGE in other words. Only with FUDGE there is one less restriction -- you're allowed to use the FUDGE name *AND* have character generation. > The Open Game definition appears at > www.opengamingfoundation.org/foundation.html. Ah! Here we have the catch: "This means that you could purchase an Open Gaming product, and make unlimited copies of the Open Gaming material that product contains and give those copies away free of charge. The Open Gaming License also gives you the right to modify any Open Gaming content to add, subtract, or alter that content as you see fit." In other words you want to stick it to any competitors who are stupid enough to use your "open" game license. Got it. You do realise that under this term it is possible to publish an "open" game, sell one copy and then have that copy replicated (and/or altered) and sold over and over and over again by the person who bought the one copy, right? No *WONDER* WotC/Hasbro isn't putting D&D3 out under the "open gaming" license. Only an idiot would try to sell anything based on it. >> (And could you then tell the one about how FUDGE isn't truly open >> although you can actually supply a FUDGE-based game *WITH* character >> generation and advancement while still using the FUDGE name?) > The FUDGE license is a restrictive license that does not allow > contributors to assert copyright in their contributions; nor does it > ensure that such contributions will remain Open. Excuse me? And your OGF license does permit contributors to assert copyright? Precisely how? You've just stated (in your web page) that the contributor *HAS* no copyright--that *ANYBODY* can take an "open game" product and reproduce and/or alter and/or freely disseminate that product. What copyright protection is left? Credit? That plus a buck gets you a coffee. And would you care to actually substantiate the claim that FUDGE contributors can't assert copyright directly from the FUDGE license? The *ONLY* copyright claim in the FUDGE license says "Original Fudge materials (c)Copyright 1992-1995 Steffan O'Sullivan, All Rights Reserved." The word "original" is key. Steffan asserts copyright over the specific expression of the core FUDGE rules as available on his site and as published by Ann Dupuis. To the person who was questioning why I was underwhelmed by Mr. Dancey's reportage, here's the exact reason. He either has a very tenuous grasp on reality or he is a corporate shill lying about a competing product. In either case this makes him less than trustworthy as a reporter of someone else's words. ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6uaejh788u.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:50:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954427852 204.101.128.170 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:50:52 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:50:52 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1841 Neil Franklin wrote in message news:6uaejh788u.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... > Does FUDGE have a policy of taking in various peoples hose rules and > using them for FUDGE 1.1, takingin more rules for 1.2, ...? If so it > would be open in the sense of Open Source. Else it is not, the same as > D&D3 is not. IIRC (and I may not be 100% correct) FUDGE was developed publicly and over half the material that exists in the current version of FUDGE is from sources other than Steffan. Certainly most of the FUDGE material available on the net has no link to Steffan other than the name FUDGE and *some* of the FUDGE mechanisms. ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8bu0qt$49p$4@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: <4VJE4.577$AT2.452@198.235.216.4> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:54:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954428096 204.101.128.170 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:54:56 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:54:56 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1833 SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> wrote in message news:8bu0qt$49p$4@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com... >> You have two choices: >> Use the system with the Open Gaming License in a completely open >> and unrestricted way. >> or >> Use the system with the Open Gaming License >and< use the D20 >> System trademark, but accept certain restrictions. > More than 2 choices of course. A third being don't bother with > the entanglements of the OGL and use another system for play. FUDGE being a prime candidate. You know, the "non-open" license that someone throws fewer restrictions in your path *AND* doesn't explicitly undermine your copyright. ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8bte6i01jv5@news1.newsguy.com> <8btnd601fg1@news2.newsguy.com> <8bu30o$1cs_002@enews.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: <9WJE4.578$AT2.428@198.235.216.4> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:56:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954428165 204.101.128.170 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:56:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:56:05 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1835 Bruce Baugh wrote in message news:8bu30o$1cs_002@enews.newsguy.com... >> But we can bring this around back to the subject matter by asking, >> again, what does "open gaming" actually *MEAN* (sans market-speak)? >> And how is the D20 system "open" if FUDGE is "closed"? > The essence is the right of reuse. You get stuff from others via the > license, and some categories of stuff you put out are also available > for reuse. And this differs from FUDGE precisely how? ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <38d3cbcd_3@news1.prserv.net> <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:00:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954428404 204.101.128.170 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:00:04 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:00:04 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1840 Berislav Lopac wrote in message news:1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr... > But, as I understand OGL, you must make your work free for all. No you don't. You can sell it. You just can't prevent the person who purchased it from making (possibly altering) and disseminating as many copies as desired. ###### From: Jerry Stratton Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Organization: Negative Space References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-Face: $!..L~)V627k~Fp@ojChOSX"5f@Jv=Wi;2I?!oAQgdUyNO8cFFdEefO#1jn#) v!PG?:'3/TZt/-*.7nNOij7TX9qL0j*mqZ^7qqOov0gG=Uyd9?f4:~,ce9 Message-ID: Lines: 93 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:09:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.130.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 954428990 24.0.130.131 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:09:50 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:09:50 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1669 In article , "Ryan S. Dancey" wrote: >Bryant Berggren wrote in message > >> So I, as a small press publisher, decide to write D&D modules. I >> *already could do this* legally. > >You cannot. You would be publishing an unauthorized derivative work, and >could be restrained from doing so. The Empty Well by Jerry Stratton This adventure is compatible with Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, 1st edition, and probably others as well. Neither Jerry Stratton nor "The Empty Well" is affliated with the makers of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. The current trademark holder for Advanced Dungeons and Dragons is Wizards of the Coast. "The Empty Well" is Copyright 2000 Jerry Stratton, and is distributed as shareware. Please send $0.02 if you use this adventure. Map of the Wilderness surrounding the well ------- | | |barn | | | ------- -- < > <-- well -- Map Key: Barn: The barn used to hold bulls, but now holds only bullshit and one minotaur. The minotaur will attack on sight, but otherwise sits around all day reading "Gord the Rogue" novels. (If any character is wearing "Gord the Rogue" t-shirt or other licensing material, the minotaur will attempt to strike up a conversation during battle.) Minotaur: AC 6, MV 12, HD: 6+3, hp 27, A 2, D: 2-8/1-4, Align: CE. Languages: Minotaur, the common tongue. The minotaur has no treasure, unless you're a Gord fan. He has the whole set. Also, if you're a farmer, there's a whole bunch of bullshit here. Bring a portable hole. Well: The well is empty. In the sense that there is no more water in the well. At the bottom of the well is a city of Piraguatoi. Piraguatoi are tiny faerie that love to cause mischief. Anyone disturbing the well is likely to release a swarm of 3 to 60 of these flying trouble-makers, and there is a 25% chance that the swarm will follow that character for the rest of their natural born life. Piraguatoi information: Frequency: Never. Very common in stupid satirical modules. No. Appearing: 1,000-10,000 Armor Class: -2 Move: 2/30 Hit Dice: 1/4 (1 hp) % In Lair: 100% (unless attached to an individual) Treasure Type: J, S No. of Attacks: 1 Damage/Attack: 0 Special Attacks: On a successful hit by a Piraguatoi, characters must save vs. Spells or jump up on the nearest soapbox and expound for 1-10 rounds. Special Defenses: Nil Magic Resistance: 50% Intelligence: Average Alignment: Chaotic Neutral Size: T Psionic Ability: Nil Attack/Defense Modes: Nil If you are using one of Wizard of the Coast's/TSR's official worlds, this adventure might fit best somewhere in the lands of Glantri, the Bone March, just outside of the city of Waterdeep, or within the wards of Ypsilanti. All it really needs is an area of the world where people build old barns full of crap and go on forever about things they don't know anything about. Jerry http://www.hoboes.com/jerry/ ###### Message-ID: <38E39A87.56E8AE7A@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8bte6i01jv5@news1.newsguy.com> <8btnd601fg1@news2.newsguy.com> <8bu30o$1cs_002@enews.newsguy.com> <9WJE4.578$AT2.428@198.235.216.4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:12:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.3.164 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 954429146 216.154.3.164 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:12:26 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:12:26 EST Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1666 "Michael T. Richter" wrote: > Bruce Baugh wrote in message > news:8bu30o$1cs_002@enews.newsguy.com... > >> But we can bring this around back to the subject matter by asking, > >> again, what does "open gaming" actually *MEAN* (sans market-speak)? > >> And how is the D20 system "open" if FUDGE is "closed"? > > > The essence is the right of reuse. You get stuff from others via the > > license, and some categories of stuff you put out are also available > > for reuse. > > And this differs from FUDGE precisely how? The size of the possible audience or consumer base. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 12 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:18:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 954429535 166.82.1.7 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:18:55 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:18:55 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!router1.news.adelphia.net!news.hyperioncom.net!uunet!nyc.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1719 Jerry Stratton wrote: > >"The Empty Well" is Copyright 2000 Jerry Stratton, and is distributed as >shareware. Please send $0.02 if you use this adventure. Would you accept a stamp? Where should I send it? -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | "He had been 8 years upon a project for extracting sos@vnet.net | sunbeams out of cucumbers, which were to be put Plymouth, NH, USA | into vials hermetically sealed, and let out to www.io.com/~sos | warm the air in raw inclement summers." -J. Swift ###### From: efindel@fnord.io.com (Travis S. Casey) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 30 Mar 2000 15:51:02 GMT Organization: Illuminati Online Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8bvt56$gfc$1@hiram.io.com> References: <20000329230258.13590.00002192@ng-cp1.aol.com> X-Trace: hiram.io.com 954431462 16876 199.170.88.12 (30 Mar 2000 15:51:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@io.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!europa.netcrusader.net!209.113.65.250!korova.insync.net!solomon.io.com!hiram.io.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1665 Alan Kellogg wrote: >herogames@aol.com (Hero Games) wrote: >> << Or, you can use the world's most thorougly tested, popular, and proven >> system >for free<. That's an excellent reason to do so. >> >> >> >> How can the brand-new D20 system be "the world's most thoroughly tested, >> popular, and proven system" if it has yet to be released? >> -- Steve Peterson, Hero Games, www.herogames.com > >The only thing new about it is the name. It's the DnD engine cleaned up >and applied to everything where task resolution is a matter of chance. >Sort of like standardizing characteristics in WFRP. Considering that there is nothing in any previous version of D&D/AD&D that uses the mechanic that is the core mechanic of D&D3, how can it be considered to be "the D&D engine cleaned up"? (Never mind the fact that there is no "D&D engine" in older versions of D&D, which is the main thing that D&D3 fixes.) It's a new system; the core mechanic is d20-based, with higher rolls being better, just as "to hit" rolls and saving throws are in older versions of D&D/AD&D, but that's all there is in common. Indeed, it resembles Palladium's mechanics more strongly than it resembles the mechanics of previous versions of D&D/AD&D. -- |\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me. |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:37:37 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8bvvsh$22c_006@enews.newsguy.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8bte6i01jv5@news1.newsguy.com> <8btnd601fg1@news2.newsguy.com> <8bu30o$1cs_002@enews.newsguy.com> <9WJE4.578$AT2.428@198.235.216.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-629.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1776 In article <9WJE4.578$AT2.428@198.235.216.4>, "Michael T. Richter" wrote: >> The essence is the right of reuse. You get stuff from others via the >> license, and some categories of stuff you put out are also available >> for reuse. > >And this differs from FUDGE precisely how? Not a whole lot, as far as I'm concerned, except that the OGL defaults to more right of reuse - not just of the core material, but of the hypothetical body of work built around it. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:59:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954435591 204.101.128.170 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:59:51 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:59:51 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1827 Berislav Lopac wrote in message news:1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr... >>> But, as I understand OGL, you must make your work free for all. >> No you don't. You can sell it. You just can't prevent the >> person who purchased it from making (possibly altering) and >> disseminating as many copies as desired. > That's what meant, sorry for not being clear. Anyway, you forfeit > your copyright by accepting the OGL -- why would *anyone* want to > do that? Because they've listened to the WotC/Hasbro FUD and think that FUDGE isn't "truly open" perhaps? :-) ###### From: Graham Wills Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:03:52 -0600 Organization: Bell Laboratories Lines: 22 Message-ID: <38E388F8.F236193E@research.bell-labs.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8bte6i01jv5@news1.newsguy.com> <8btnd601fg1@news2.newsguy.com> <8bu30o$1cs_002@enews.newsguy.com> <8burtl$tho$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: twitch.research.bell-labs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-SGI [en] (X11; U; IRIX64 6.5 IP30) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!f.de.uu.net!uunet!zur.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1799 SD Anderson wrote: > The Counter Reformation may have started. GURPS Castle Falkenstein > will be joined by GURPS Deadlands according to the Daily Illuminator. Does this strike anyone else as one of those pairings that might have occurred in the "Games I'd hate to play thread?". Maybe not as bad as Rolemaster Everway, but it seems a bizarre move to take a game that has a quirky, but fun, system and a pretty obvious world and remove the fun elements, leaving a simple world to be played under an unexciting system (*)? -Graham (*) I tried to think of a less perjorative world for a system that doesn't attempt to be stylish or novel, but just get the job done, but couldn't. -- Graham Wills Data Visualization, Bell Labs gwills@research.bell-labs.com +1 (630) 979 7338 http://www.bell-labs.com/~gwills Silk for Calde! ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Mar 2000 17:42:17 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000330124217.18404.00000061@ng-co1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1737 Alan Kellogg wrote: >The only thing new about it is the name. It's the DnD engine cleaned up >and applied to everything where task resolution is a matter of chance. >Sort of like standardizing characteristics in WFRP. You couldn't be *more* wrong if you stripped naked and ran through Times Square. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:48:35 +0200 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inc=E1nus?= Lines: 15 Message-ID: <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin057.iskon.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 954434920 4314 195.29.170.196 (30 Mar 2000 16:48:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 16:48:40 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!berislav.lopac Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1845 Michael T. Richter wrote: > > But, as I understand OGL, you must make your work free for all. > > No you don't. You can sell it. You just can't prevent the person who > purchased it from making (possibly altering) and disseminating as many > copies as desired. That's what meant, sorry for not being clear. Anyway, you forfeit your copyright by accepting the OGL -- why would *anyone* want to do that? -- Incanus: incanus@incanus.com Incanus homepage: http://www.incanus.com Incanus Games: http://www.incanus.com/games/ ###### From: berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:48:36 +0200 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inc=E1nus?= Lines: 11 Message-ID: <1e8bo93.641y751xn3v1mN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8atwu.15sgeaqqoqsn4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin057.iskon.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 954434920 4314 195.29.170.196 (30 Mar 2000 16:48:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 16:48:40 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!berislav.lopac Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1834 Berislav Lopac wrote: > Now please go and re-read Ryan's post and my reply. Sorry, Ryan, I didn't realize that it was you who replied to my post until much later. I apologize for the above wording. -- Incanus: incanus@incanus.com Incanus homepage: http://www.incanus.com Incanus Games: http://www.incanus.com/games/ ###### From: nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Mar 2000 18:09:22 GMT References: <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000330130922.14349.00000022@ng-md1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1736 Berislav Lopac wrote: << That's what meant, sorry for not being clear. Anyway, you forfeit your copyright by accepting the OGL -- why would *anyone* want to do that? >> I guess the answer to that question is the same one as "why do idiots on the 'net violate other people's copyrights by scanning and uploading material?" *They don't care!* Steve Miller Writer of Stuff And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right. I've been talking to Jesus all my life. --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me" ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Mar 2000 18:48:34 GMT References: <8bus7v$tr9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000330134834.18404.00000072@ng-co1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1744 SD Anderson wrote: >> Or, you can use the world's most thorougly tested, popular, and proven >> system >for free<. That's an excellent reason to do so. > > Last I heard, the system being offered for free hasn't been released >yet and has far less actual playtesting done on it so far than most >games that have been around for a decade or more. The other problem with this "most thoroughly tested" rhetoric (which I've encountered before in debates concerning AD&D2) is that "tested", in the sense its being used here, usually means that something is tested and then, if a problem arises, it is *fixed*. In the case of AD&D, however, it has only been "most thoroughly tested" in the sense that millions of people play it... millions of people who have "fixed" it with home rules that have never seen the light of day in a TSR product. To bring it back aroudn: D&D3 seems to be making a multitude of choices which I've *never* seen in a set of homerules. This isn't a bad thing, but (as you say) claiming that it's "the most thoroughly tested" system is just silly. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: rogers@prefect.com (Rogers) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 06:54:28 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 10 Message-ID: <38ecf9b8.27060249@news.aug.com> References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> Reply-To: rogers@prefect.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1935 On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:41:26 -0500, bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote: >Your definition of "derivative" is remarkably slippery... Historically, TSR's definition of derivative work has been so all-encompassing that if Jack Vance or the J.R.R. Tolkien estate had used it, they could have considered D&D *their* derivative work. It's a joke, but TSR and now WOTC have enough lawyers to make sure they get the last laugh in any trademark or copyright dispute. ###### From: rogers@prefect.com (Rogers) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 06:59:52 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 9 Message-ID: <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Reply-To: rogers@prefect.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1942 On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:48:35 +0200, berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) wrote: >That's what meant, sorry for not being clear. Anyway, you forfeit your >copyright by accepting the OGL -- why would *anyone* want to do that? You don't forfeit your copyright -- if you did that the work would be public domain. You copyright the work in your name but license it under terms that are extremely generous in regard to redistribution and derivative works. ###### From: rogers@prefect.com (Rogers) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:09:18 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 6 Message-ID: <38f1fd2d.27945642@news.aug.com> References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Reply-To: rogers@prefect.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1934 On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:16:05 -0800, "Ryan S. Dancey" wrote: >Or, you can use the world's most thorougly tested, popular, and proven >system >for free<. That's an excellent reason to do so. D&D 3E is not thoroughly tested by any means. ###### From: rogers@prefect.com (Rogers) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:16:00 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: <38f2fdf1.28141197@news.aug.com> References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Reply-To: rogers@prefect.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1930 On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:47:57 GMT, "Michael T. Richter" wrote: >You do realise that under this term it is possible to publish an "open" >game, sell one copy and then have that copy replicated (and/or altered) and >sold over and over and over again by the person who bought the one copy, >right? No *WONDER* WotC/Hasbro isn't putting D&D3 out under the "open >gaming" license. Only an idiot would try to sell anything based on it. The selling point behind releasing open-source roleplaying material is that you're giving people so much freedom to product derivative work that they will, and you'll be able to create a community of gamers supporting the product and building an audience for it. It's an unproven idea, and the OGL/D20 proposal isn't open source because of the ludicrous "no experience gain or class advancement" requirement, but don't discount it entirely. Look at how a community has grown up around FUDGE, a roleplaying game with a license that's similar to the spirit of open source. ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Mar 2000 19:16:08 GMT References: <38E388F8.F236193E@research.bell-labs.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000330141608.18404.00000084@ng-co1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2032 Graham wrote: >SD Anderson wrote: > >> The Counter Reformation may have started. GURPS Castle Falkenstein >> will be joined by GURPS Deadlands according to the Daily Illuminator. > >Does this strike anyone else as one of those pairings that might >have occurred in the "Games I'd hate to play thread?". Maybe >not as bad as Rolemaster Everway, but it seems a bizarre move to >take a game that has a quirky, but fun, system and a pretty obvious >world and remove the fun elements, leaving a simple world to be played >under an unexciting system (*)? You're talking about GURPS Castle Falkenstein, right? Because Deadlands is in desperate need of a system that actually works. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:53:35 -0500 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 25 Message-ID: <38E3B0BF.B9E217DA@myriad.net> References: <38E2725E.6AFCE38B@myriad.net> <20000329194523.15531.00010547@ng-de1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 20:47:20 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp2.giganews.com!news-feeds.jump.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1867 Steve Miller wrote: > > Kiz wrote: > > << Hm. I really think that "Disney Characters Hot Sex RPG" ought to be > the next NUELOW setting. :-) >> > > I am *not* living the rest of my life looking over my shoulder for Disney Hit > Squads! > > Steve Miller > Writer of Stuff > > And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right. > I've been talking to Jesus all my life. > --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me" Well, then, wait a bit and publish it anonymously as the first d20 sourcebook. :-) Kiz -and you can include the Disney Hit Squads as the bad guys, much like the Technocracy in Mage. :-) ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:37:28 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 18 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on potato.cit.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.cit.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 954448648 655 132.236.156.18 (30 Mar 2000 20:37:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 20:37:28 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2181 In article , "Ryan S. Dancey" wrote: > You've got a really killer idea for a world; or maybe just one really great > story you want to tell. Why bother creating a whole new RPG from scratch, > risking the danger that you'll screw up and create an unbalanced/unfun game, > or maybe stray into a grey area out of either ignorance or negligence and > get sued? > > Or, you can use the world's most thorougly tested, popular, and proven > system >for free<. That's an excellent reason to do so. You mean, like so many net sites already do? -- "Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are dealing with our mental health crisis today." ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:41:26 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 40 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on potato.cit.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.cit.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 954448885 655 132.236.156.18 (30 Mar 2000 20:41:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 20:41:25 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!triton.skycache.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2166 In article , "Ryan S. Dancey" wrote: > Bryant Berggren wrote in message > > > So I, as a small press publisher, decide to write D&D modules. I > > *already could do this* legally. > > You cannot. You would be publishing an unauthorized derivative work, and > could be restrained from doing so. Really? What if I happened to publish a module that used the same IDEAS of the D&D rules but didn't actually QUOTE the text used by a TSR product? Your definition of "derivative" is remarkably slippery... > > I can even say put a notice on my > > module cover blurbs: "This adventure is compatible with Dungeons & > > Dragons(tm). Dungeons & Dragons is a trademark of TSR, Inc.; the > > author is not affiliated with TSR, Inc. in any way." > > You cannot. You would be misappropriating use of a trademark, and could be > restrained from doing so. This much might be true--there is some level of tacit "permission" in the use of a trademark in a disclaimer. However, I could say "This adventure is compatible with popular roleplaying games that use character classes and levels." and you couldn't do boo. > That's the >point< of copyright and trademark law. If you could do what > you're suggesting, there would be no need for either type of law. That's the point of trademark law, but you marvelously misapply copyright. -- "Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are dealing with our mental health crisis today." ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:42:53 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 27 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on potato.cit.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> <38e2e9b0.446359759@news.theramp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.cit.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 954448972 655 132.236.156.18 (30 Mar 2000 20:42:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 20:42:52 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2169 In article <38e2e9b0.446359759@news.theramp.net>, voxel@theramp.net (Bryant Berggren) wrote: > On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 03:20:59 -0800, "Ryan S. Dancey" > wrote: > > >Bryant Berggren wrote in message > > > >> So I, as a small press publisher, decide to write D&D modules. I > >> *already could do this* legally. > > > > You cannot. You would be publishing an unauthorized derivative work, and > > could be restrained from doing so. > > Maybe. Consider, for a moment, exactly what would be "deriving" here? > We're talking about an adventure module -- typically, something that > doesn't need to quote passages from the rulebooks, and in fact counts > on *not* having to quote the rulebooks to conserve space. The only He won't answer you. He never will answer you. His definition of "derivative" includes game rules, even when he says it doesn't. -- "Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are dealing with our mental health crisis today." ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:45:19 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 26 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on potato.cit.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6uaejh788u.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.cit.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 954449119 655 132.236.156.18 (30 Mar 2000 20:45:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 20:45:19 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2180 In article <6uaejh788u.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > "Michael T. Richter" writes: > > > Ryan S. Dancey wrote in message > > news:se3r53n2ead6@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > To make the OGL concept work, consumers have to decide that > > > they'd rather have Open Games rather than Closed Games. > > What the fuck *IS* an "open" game vs. a "closed" game?! You're very > > painfully obviously trying to draw a link between "open source" and "open > > game", but the link makes no sense whatsoever. > > Full agreement, no sense. This "Open Source Game" stuff lacks all > essential features of Open Source programming, as defined by the > terms inventor Bruce Perens and his buddy Eric Raymond. He wants to define the term in such a way that it puts game rules AS IDEAS under copyright, since he claims that modules are automatically legally "derivative". -- "Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are dealing with our mental health crisis today." ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:46:21 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 12 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on potato.cit.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6uaejh788u.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <01bf9a0c$361cb7c0$3352e0ce@john---sandra> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.cit.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 954449181 655 132.236.156.18 (30 Mar 2000 20:46:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 20:46:21 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2165 In article <01bf9a0c$361cb7c0$3352e0ce@john---sandra>, "S. John Ross" wrote: > And picking at a metaphor would be regarded as really, really, tragically > geeky by me. Goober Punk, roleplaying in a world of the Tragically Geek. -- "Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are dealing with our mental health crisis today." ###### From: rogers@prefect.com (Rogers) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:31:52 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <38e6c635.29688350@news.aug.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> Reply-To: rogers@prefect.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1897 On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:43:25 GMT, "Michael T. Richter" wrote: >In short you retain copyright in the strictest possible use of the term, but >you don't actually have any protections that copyright is supposed to >provide. Yup. You retain copyright, because otherwise there's no way you could dictate anything about how it is copied. Open source is alien to the notion that the work you create should remain in your control -- it turns traditional intellectual property rights on their head. However, since the system of copyright law was created for the purpose of giving people an incentive to create new works, open source is very much in that spirit. The creator gives up rights as an incentive for others to create derivative works under the same terms. It's a strange way to treat a copyright, but I would have thought 10 years ago that any open-source programming proposal was a little crazy too. Programming is valuable work. Why give it away? ###### From: rogers@prefect.com (Rogers) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:34:44 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 9 Message-ID: <38e7c83d.30207987@news.aug.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8cs05.8ojvso163oohsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Reply-To: rogers@prefect.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1920 On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:22:07 +0200, berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) wrote: >Open Source movement was designed to make public something that is by >nature hidden; therefore, it's completely off the mark in a medium where >*everything* already is public. Open source was also designed to create an incentive for people to improve upon a project and share their improvements. In that regard, there's no difference between the programming and RPG mediums. ###### From: rogers@prefect.com (Rogers) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:37:37 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 10 Message-ID: <38e8c8c1.30340672@news.aug.com> References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38f2fdf1.28141197@news.aug.com> Reply-To: rogers@prefect.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1909 On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:46:44 GMT, "Michael T. Richter" wrote: >FUDGE's commercial license doesn't say "you must permit anyone and everyone >to take your work and replicate it up the wazoo for free". With the possible exception of the OpenContent and GNU documentation licenses, which I'm still trying to figure out, no open gaming license says that either. OGL has all kinds of provisions about producing closed material in an open product, and Dominion Rules License is considering a similar proposal. ###### Message-ID: <38E56B22.57CA@wizvax.net> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:21:06 +4300 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <8c3f59$rtm$2@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 31 Mar 2000 22:23:07 -0500, cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com Lines: 28 XPident: wilson X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2227 Wayne Shaw wrote: > > On 1 Apr 2000 00:16:41 GMT, SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> > wrote: > > >Wayne Shaw wrote: > > > >> That's kind of what descriptions of it evoked to me, too...which > >> isn't a bad thing, if you're going to use a D&D style model, the > >> Talislanta take on it always struck me as a superior one with > >> increased flexibility. > > > > And probably yet another reason for WotC to kick itself for > >dumping Talislanta a couple of years back. > > Businesses change direction. Back then, they didn't have any plans to > do anything with RPGs again. Acquiring TSR changed that. And there was a vocal contingent of stockholders quite abusively stating how much money had been wasted on Talislanta and trying to get Peter removed because of his mishandling of such things. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### Message-ID: <38E56B5D.669E@wizvax.net> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:22:05 +4300 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38E48E93.2812@wizvax.net> <8c3fc6$rtm$3@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 31 Mar 2000 22:24:06 -0500, cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com Lines: 26 XPident: wilson X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2237 SD Anderson wrote: > > Sea wasp wrote: > > >> With a new combat system, new stat system and who knows HOW > >> many other changes that have yet to meet players. > > > Excuse me? > > > They've met a hell of a lot of players, including MY > > group. > > Relatively few playtesters compared to the probable market > size. And out there are the REAL RULE ABUSERS, the sort of people > who make the Knights of the Dinner Table characters Brian and > Bitter Stevil look like casual rule readers. I can rules rape with the best of 'em. And we found a couple of real doozies, too. One that led to us nicknaming one game night our "slaytesting session". -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### Message-ID: <38E56B8A.4352@wizvax.net> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:22:50 +4300 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38E48DF4.E53@wizvax.net> <20000331211133.07671.00000272@ng-fd1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 31 Mar 2000 22:24:51 -0500, cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com Lines: 20 XPident: wilson X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2225 Justin Bacon wrote: > > Sea Wasp wrote: > > Really? Most, if not all, of the changes I've seen have definitely been > > >in many sets of house rules I've seen, or even have been parts of other > >game's rulesets (Tal comes to mind). Quite a few of them have been MY > >house rules. > > The way feats work and initiative were the two I was primarily thinking about. Feats: Advantages in GURPS or Champions. There's nothing new under the sun. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### From: "Ross W. Maker" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:25:00 -0600 Organization: 4D Interactive Systems, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <38E3E24C.CD67DF76@4dintsys.com> References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: win95028181.pace.medtronic.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: gazette.corp.medtronic.com 954458703 808 144.15.28.181 (30 Mar 2000 23:25:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@medtronic.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 23:25:03 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!medtronic.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1914 Bryan J. Maloney wrote: > > In article , "Ryan S. Dancey" > wrote: > > > Bryant Berggren wrote in message > > > > > I can even say put a notice on my > > > module cover blurbs: "This adventure is compatible with Dungeons & > > > Dragons(tm). Dungeons & Dragons is a trademark of TSR, Inc.; the > > > author is not affiliated with TSR, Inc. in any way." > > > > You cannot. You would be misappropriating use of a trademark, and > > could be restrained from doing so. > > This much might be true--there is some level of tacit "permission" in > the use of a trademark in a disclaimer. However, I could say "This > adventure is compatible with popular roleplaying games that use > character classes and levels." and you couldn't do boo. Ummm, excuse me, but didn't TSR LOSE their suits on this point with both Heritage and Mayfair? IIRC, the judge said that as long as they didn't state or imply it was APPROVED by TSR, they could say it was compatible with TSR product. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 31 Mar 2000 00:24:55 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 11 Message-ID: <8c0r8n$qfc$2@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mhakq.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954462295 27116 149.174.242.229 (31 Mar 2000 00:24:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 00:24:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1999 Michael T. Richter wrote: > Excuse me? And your OGF license does permit contributors to > assert copyright? Precisely how? You've just stated (in your > web page) that the contributor *HAS* no copyright--that > *ANYBODY* can take an "open game" product and reproduce and/or > alter and/or freely disseminate that product. What copyright > protection is left? Credit? That plus a buck gets you a > coffee. Obviously Michael has never seen the prices posted for coffee at the local drive thru Latte... ;) ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 31 Mar 2000 00:39:36 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 9 Message-ID: <8c0s48$qfc$3@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <38E388F8.F236193E@research.bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhakq.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954463176 27116 149.174.242.229 (31 Mar 2000 00:39:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 00:39:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1990 Graham Willis wrote: > (*) I tried to think of a less perjorative world for a system > that doesn't attempt to be stylish or novel, but just get the > job done, but couldn't. That your vocabulary lacks sufficient depth to find such a word makes you pitiable. That you would publicly prounounce your shortcomings makes you a potential candidate for guesting on Jerry Springer... ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 31 Mar 2000 00:49:43 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8c0sn7$qfc$4@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <38E29B6C.E15228A5@fudgerpg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhakq.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954463783 27116 149.174.242.229 (31 Mar 2000 00:49:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 00:49:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2001 SD Anderson wrote: >> Just out of curiousity, implicit in this argument is the idea >> that WotC's open game license doesn't have any such legal >> protections. How does Hasbro intend to protect itself from >> Disney Character Hot Sex lawsuits without a similar provision? [snip] > I know that the Fudge commercial license doesn't protect Steffan > (or any Fudge publishers) from being sued by anyone who wants to > sue us for any reason, but it *does* offer some measure of > protection in that the commercial Fudge licensee does have to > put his signature on a piece of paper stating that he will not > publish any Fudge derivatives that are illegal (due to > third-party trademark infringement, libel, and similar things > that are against the law). So Hasbro has a division passing out a license that provides no such legal protections? ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 31 Mar 2000 00:53:31 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 8 Message-ID: <8c0sub$qfc$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mhakq.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954464011 27116 149.174.242.229 (31 Mar 2000 00:53:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 00:53:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2009 Alan Kellog wrote: > The only thing new about it is the name. It's the DnD engine > cleaned up and applied to everything where task resolution is a > matter of chance. Sort of like standardizing characteristics in > WFRP. With a new combat system, new stat system and who knows HOW many other changes that have yet to meet players. ###### From: fantasyrealms@mindspring.com (Joseph Teller) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:24:05 GMT Organization: Fantasy Library (www.fantasylibrary.com) Lines: 25 Message-ID: <38e36130.58094637@news.mindspring.com> References: <8bu0d2$49p$2@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Reply-To: joeteller@mindspring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.04.e9 X-Server-Date: 31 Mar 2000 02:20:27 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2071 On 29 Mar 2000 22:34:10 GMT, SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> wrote: > The cynical explanation is that "Open" = any WotC designed >system WotC designates as "Open" and that all other systems >ESPECIALLY ones designed by other game companies are "Closed". > > Therefore, no matter how open (lower case) FUDGE may be, it >cannot become Open (upper case) until and unless WotC acquires it >and DECLARES that it's now "Open". Do you mean that they've decided to trademark the term 'Open' andthus control the meaning of the word? Whatever happened to the concept in trademark law that you cannot trademark a "Common usage term" that was in use before you trademarked it? Joe Joseph Teller joeteller@mindspring.com "Put Some Fantasy Back In Your Life!" The Fantasy Library http://www.fantasylibrary.com ###### From: Jerry Stratton Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Organization: Negative Space References: <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-Face: $!..L~)V627k~Fp@ojChOSX"5f@Jv=Wi;2I?!oAQgdUyNO8cFFdEefO#1jn#) v!PG?:'3/TZt/-*.7nNOij7TX9qL0j*mqZ^7qqOov0gG=Uyd9?f4:~,ce9 Message-ID: Lines: 18 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:36:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.130.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 954484565 24.0.130.131 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:36:05 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:36:05 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1895 In article , sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) wrote: >Jerry Stratton wrote: >> >>"The Empty Well" is Copyright 2000 Jerry Stratton, and is distributed as >>shareware. Please send $0.02 if you use this adventure. > >Would you accept a stamp? Sure. Thanks for helping out :*) >Where should I send it? [Address sent under separate cover.] Jerry http://www.hoboes.com/jerry/ ###### From: berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:22:07 +0200 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inc=E1nus?= Lines: 55 Message-ID: <1e8cs05.8ojvso163oohsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin098.iskon.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 954487332 27255 195.29.170.88 (31 Mar 2000 07:22:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 07:22:12 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!berislav.lopac Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2241 Colin Smith wrote: > I'm not sure you forfeit your copyright. I think you grant the right for > anyone to distribute the system but only if they also grant those rights > to the people that they give the system to. The idea comes from the > software world and it's purpose is to guarantee that a piece of software > source code remains open for everyone to use. It stops people grabbing > something that someone else has contributed and saying 'This is mine you > can't have it.'. They are basically jumping on the 'Open Source' bandwagon > because Linux is pasting every commercial operating system in sight. > > Discussion (by techies) at: > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/03/22/0950237&mode=thread > > To be honest, I think the idea is somewhat misapplied to books though > my own system is under an open license. That's probably the most important notion here. Software and books have very different properties, as was repeatedly argued, and the idea of Open Source simply does not apply here. In both software and RPGs, you have two different things involved: the functions of your system/software, and the way to perform those functions (mechanics or souce code). The functions were never secret or inaccessible in neither case; you can always take a game or software and make your own with the same effect (eg. in a game system, a system-based task resolution; in a software, say, the ability to underline text).. However, in a software you could hide the exact way how you managed to perform a function, because in a compiled application it was not visible what code you used. In the gaming systems, OTOH, the exact mechanics is not only visible, but necessary to the play; if we really have to compare games with software, RPG systems would be more akin to the Java applets, which are open for everyone to see, which they must be because they're compiled and performed on the fly, on the client computer. Open Source movement was designed to make public something that is by nature hidden; therefore, it's completely off the mark in a medium where *everything* already is public. > As well as the Open Gaming License there is also the Open Content license: > http://www.opencontent.org/ and the GNU Free Documentation License: > http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html which perform a similar function > but with differing terms. You'll need to read the licenses to see. > The GNU people started it all off with the GNU General Public License > for software, otherwise known as the Copyleft. http://www.gnu.org/ Now, Open Content is potentially much closer to what OGL should be like. I haven't checked it thoroughly yet, but I plan to, since it sounds like what I have in mind for my Rules of Thumb (http://www.incanus.com/games/rot/). -- Incanus: incanus@incanus.com Incanus homepage: http://www.incanus.com Incanus Games: http://www.incanus.com/games/ ###### From: berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:24:45 +0200 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inc=E1nus?= Lines: 18 Message-ID: <1e8csub.9top4u1am0bwoN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin098.iskon.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 954487489 21913 195.29.170.88 (31 Mar 2000 07:24:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 07:24:49 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!berislav.lopac Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1853 Rogers wrote: > >That's what meant, sorry for not being clear. Anyway, you forfeit your > >copyright by accepting the OGL -- why would *anyone* want to do that? > > You don't forfeit your copyright -- if you did that the work would be > public domain. You copyright the work in your name but license it > under terms that are extremely generous in regard to redistribution > and derivative works. I write work A, (c) me. You take it, change some things, and (thanks to the OGL) publish a work B, (c) you. How is that not forfeiting copyright? -- Incanus: incanus@incanus.com Incanus homepage: http://www.incanus.com Incanus Games: http://www.incanus.com/games/ ###### From: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 31 Mar 2000 08:31:59 GMT Organization: Semiotic Marines, Altoid Squad Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8c1npv0s8b@news2.newsguy.com> References: <8bu0d2$49p$2@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <38e36130.58094637@news.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-502.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1989 In article <38e36130.58094637@news.mindspring.com>, Joseph Teller wrote: >On 29 Mar 2000 22:34:10 GMT, SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> >wrote: >> The cynical explanation is that "Open" = any WotC designed >>system WotC designates as "Open" and that all other systems >>ESPECIALLY ones designed by other game companies are "Closed". >> >> Therefore, no matter how open (lower case) FUDGE may be, it >>cannot become Open (upper case) until and unless WotC acquires it >>and DECLARES that it's now "Open". > >Do you mean that they've decided to trademark the term 'Open' andthus >control the meaning of the word? > >Whatever happened to the concept in trademark law that you cannot >trademark a "Common usage term" that was in use before you trademarked >it? The accurate answer is that the D20 system is closer to the spirit of open source, and a lot of rgfm readers are discovering that open source means giving up a lot of intellectual property rights. Despite all the linux buzz, open source isn't necessarily something everyone /wants/ to do. -- Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] "The extreme always seems to make an impression." -- _Heathers_ ###### Message-ID: <38E48D65.4F0C@wizvax.net> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:35:01 -0500 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <20000329230258.13590.00002192@ng-cp1.aol.com> <8bvt56$gfc$1@hiram.io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 31 Mar 2000 06:37:01 -0500, cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com Lines: 17 XPident: Unknown X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2232 Travis S. Casey wrote: > It's a new system; the core mechanic is d20-based, with higher rolls being > better, just as "to hit" rolls and saving throws are in older versions of > D&D/AD&D, but that's all there is in common. > > Indeed, it resembles Palladium's mechanics more strongly than it resembles > the mechanics of previous versions of D&D/AD&D. IMCGO, it resembles Talislanta and the old Arcanum by SMS FAR more closely than it does Palladium. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### Message-ID: <38E48DF4.E53@wizvax.net> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:37:24 -0500 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <8bus7v$tr9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20000330134834.18404.00000072@ng-co1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 31 Mar 2000 06:39:25 -0500, cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com Lines: 18 XPident: Unknown X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2217 Justin Bacon wrote: > To bring it back aroudn: D&D3 seems to be making a multitude of choices which > I've *never* seen in a set of homerules. Really? Most, if not all, of the changes I've seen have definitely been in many sets of house rules I've seen, or even have been parts of other game's rulesets (Tal comes to mind). Quite a few of them have been MY house rules. If you wanna be more specific, you could email me with your thoughts. (NDA and all that) -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### Message-ID: <38E48E93.2812@wizvax.net> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:40:03 -0500 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <8c0sub$qfc$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 31 Mar 2000 06:42:03 -0500, cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com Lines: 20 XPident: Unknown X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2222 SD Anderson wrote: > > Alan Kellog wrote: > > The only thing new about it is the name. It's the DnD engine > > cleaned up and applied to everything where task resolution is a > > matter of chance. Sort of like standardizing characteristics in > > WFRP. > > With a new combat system, new stat system and who knows HOW > many other changes that have yet to meet players. Excuse me? They've met a hell of a lot of players, including MY group. -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:43:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954513805 204.101.128.170 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:43:25 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:43:25 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2214 Rogers wrote in message news:38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com... >> That's what meant, sorry for not being clear. Anyway, you forfeit >> your copyright by accepting the OGL -- why would *anyone* want to >> do that? > You don't forfeit your copyright -- if you did that the work would be > public domain. You copyright the work in your name but license it > under terms that are extremely generous in regard to redistribution > and derivative works. In short you retain copyright in the strictest possible use of the term, but you don't actually have any protections that copyright is supposed to provide. ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38f2fdf1.28141197@news.aug.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:46:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954514004 204.101.128.170 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:46:44 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:46:44 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2212 Rogers wrote in message news:38f2fdf1.28141197@news.aug.com... > It's an unproven idea, and the OGL/D20 proposal isn't open source > because of the ludicrous "no experience gain or class advancement" > requirement, but don't discount it entirely. Look at how a community > has grown up around FUDGE, a roleplaying game with a license that's > similar to the spirit of open source. FUDGE's commercial license doesn't say "you must permit anyone and everyone to take your work and replicate it up the wazoo for free". ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8c0r8n$qfc$2@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 20 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: <1V2F4.651$Gm4.421@198.235.216.4> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:48:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954514109 204.101.128.170 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:48:29 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:48:29 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2201 SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> wrote in message news:8c0r8n$qfc$2@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com... >> Excuse me? And your OGF license does permit contributors to >> assert copyright? Precisely how? You've just stated (in your >> web page) that the contributor *HAS* no copyright--that >> *ANYBODY* can take an "open game" product and reproduce and/or >> alter and/or freely disseminate that product. What copyright >> protection is left? Credit? That plus a buck gets you a >> coffee. > Obviously Michael has never seen the prices posted for coffee > at the local drive thru Latte... ;) Actually you're correct. I roast my own beans for the most part and when I go out for coffee, I go to places I *KNOW* are absurdly expensive (because these are the few places which make coffee I like). But, in my defence, you'll note I didn't say "that plus a buck gets you a *GOOD* coffee".... :-) ###### From: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 31 Mar 2000 15:45:00 GMT Organization: Semiotic Marines, Altoid Squad Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-818.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1980 In article , Michael T. Richter wrote: >Rogers wrote in message >news:38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com... >>> That's what meant, sorry for not being clear. Anyway, you forfeit >>> your copyright by accepting the OGL -- why would *anyone* want to >>> do that? > >> You don't forfeit your copyright -- if you did that the work would be >> public domain. You copyright the work in your name but license it >> under terms that are extremely generous in regard to redistribution >> and derivative works. > >In short you retain copyright in the strictest possible use of the term, but >you don't actually have any protections that copyright is supposed to >provide. Yup. Why would anyone wanna do that? Ask Linus Torvalds or Larry Wall. People are willing to do this kinda thing, on occasion. -- Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] "The extreme always seems to make an impression." -- _Heathers_ ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 28 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:27:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954520050 204.101.128.170 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:27:30 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:27:30 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2210 Bryant Durrell wrote in message news:8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com... >>>> That's what meant, sorry for not being clear. Anyway, you forfeit >>>> your copyright by accepting the OGL -- why would *anyone* want to >>>> do that? >>> You don't forfeit your copyright -- if you did that the work would be >>> public domain. You copyright the work in your name but license it >>> under terms that are extremely generous in regard to redistribution >>> and derivative works. >> In short you retain copyright in the strictest possible use of the term, but >> you don't actually have any protections that copyright is supposed to >> provide. > Yup. > Why would anyone wanna do that? Ask Linus Torvalds or Larry Wall. > People are willing to do this kinda thing, on occasion. The question, however, is why would anybody publish *FOR* *MONEY* anything under the OGL? Great. D&D-ish (not *REAL* D&D of course!) supplements can now be published under OGL without having WotC threaten everyone in sight for copyright violation. But why would someone try to sell a game based upon the OGL? Commercial enterprises doing so would be barking mad! ###### From: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 31 Mar 2000 17:41:26 GMT Organization: Semiotic Marines, Altoid Squad Lines: 40 Message-ID: <8c2o0601omh@news2.newsguy.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-417.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1985 In article , Michael T. Richter wrote: >Bryant Durrell wrote in message >news:8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com... >>>>> That's what meant, sorry for not being clear. Anyway, you forfeit >>>>> your copyright by accepting the OGL -- why would *anyone* want to >>>>> do that? > >>>> You don't forfeit your copyright -- if you did that the work would be >>>> public domain. You copyright the work in your name but license it >>>> under terms that are extremely generous in regard to redistribution >>>> and derivative works. > >>> In short you retain copyright in the strictest possible use of the term, >but >>> you don't actually have any protections that copyright is supposed to >>> provide. > >> Yup. > >> Why would anyone wanna do that? Ask Linus Torvalds or Larry Wall. >> People are willing to do this kinda thing, on occasion. > >The question, however, is why would anybody publish *FOR* *MONEY* anything >under the OGL? Great. D&D-ish (not *REAL* D&D of course!) supplements can >now be published under OGL without having WotC threaten everyone in sight >for copyright violation. But why would someone try to sell a game based >upon the OGL? Commercial enterprises doing so would be barking mad! Geeze, I dunno. Ask Red Hat or Cygnus. For that matter, ask Grey Ghost. It's not like they have an exclusive license to publish FUDGE. I do believe that open source products can be revenue generators, even though I don't believe that open source is a moral necessity. -- Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it." -- Donald E. Knuth ###### From: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 31 Mar 2000 17:42:49 GMT Organization: Semiotic Marines, Altoid Squad Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8c2o2p01lkr@news1.newsguy.com> References: <38e36130.58094637@news.mindspring.com> <8c1npv0s8b@news2.newsguy.com> <8c2l06$3j8_002@enews.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-424.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1996 In article <8c2l06$3j8_002@enews.newsguy.com>, Bruce Baugh wrote: >In article <8c1npv0s8b@news2.newsguy.com>, durrell@innocence.com (Bryant >Durrell) wrote: >>The accurate answer is that the D20 system is closer to the spirit of open >>source, and a lot of rgfm readers are discovering that open source means >>giving up a lot of intellectual property rights. Despite all the linux >>buzz, open source isn't necessarily something everyone /wants/ to do. > >Right. This is why I've been saying for a while that I'm not sure why >"open source" is supposed to be some de facto good thing, the way Dancey >keeps using it. It's neat as an option, and I am curious to see what >comes from it, but it's not the only good way to go. Yeah, that's open source advocates for you. It's a shame it's such a polarizing issue. I mean, it's certainly not the case that Dancey is an exception -- Tom Christensen, notable perl guru, will tell you at length that it's morally wrong to conceal /any/ code. And he's hardly an isolated example. -- Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it." -- Donald E. Knuth ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> <8c2o0601omh@news2.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 37 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:51:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954528675 204.101.128.170 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:51:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:51:15 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2197 Bryant Durrell wrote in message news:8c2o0601omh@news2.newsguy.com... >>The question, however, is why would anybody publish *FOR* *MONEY* anything >>under the OGL? Great. D&D-ish (not *REAL* D&D of course!) supplements can >>now be published under OGL without having WotC threaten everyone in sight >>for copyright violation. But why would someone try to sell a game based >>upon the OGL? Commercial enterprises doing so would be barking mad! > Geeze, I dunno. Ask Red Hat or Cygnus. For that matter, ask Grey Ghost. > It's not like they have an exclusive license to publish FUDGE. Red Hat made most of its money from its IPO, not from its sales. Before the IPO it made most of its revenue by selling support, not operating systems. Cygnus made most of its money by selling itself to Red Hat. Previously their main source of revenue was consulting services. Neither made a lot of money from software. For "open gaming" the way WotC/Hasbro wants to do it to be profitable using this model, the companies making "open gaming" products would be generating most of their revenue by charging for game refereeing services or the like instead of selling games and game supplements. > I do believe that open source products can be revenue generators, even > though I don't believe that open source is a moral necessity. Yes. Open source software products can be revenue generators ONLY if you want to sell something other than software. Digital Creations, for example, makes the Open Source product ZOPE (http://www.zope.org), probably the coolest piece of web server software ever created. They don't sell software. They sell their services as people who make dynamic commercial web sites (and some REALLY impressive ones at that!) and give the software they use to do this away for free. (Suspiciously the product is almost, but not quite, undocumented because, of course, it would be too easy to compete with them if you knew how to use the software completely.) ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> <8c2o0601omh@news2.newsguy.com> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 18 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:01:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 954529261 166.82.1.7 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:01:01 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:01:01 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!194.53.76.66.MISMATCH!inetway!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!zur.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1974 Bryant Durrell wrote: >For that matter, ask Grey Ghost. >It's not like they have an exclusive license to publish FUDGE. Actually, Grey Ghost *does* have an exclusive license to publish *Fudge itself* in English for a fee. They don't have an exclusive license to publish Fudge-related material, however, which could include Fudge modified to a specific genre, for example. Anyone can get a license from me to do that. And anyone can give Fudge itself away for free. But I have been approached with an offer to publish Fudge itself by another publisher, and turned it down because of Grey Ghost's exclusive license. -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | "Perhaps there are not as many stupid things sos@vnet.net | said as there are set down in print." Plymouth, NH, USA | -The Goncourt Brothers in 1866, www.io.com/~sos | predicting the eventual rise of usenet ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 6 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:10:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 954529835 166.82.1.7 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:10:35 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:10:35 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1979 You think you're confused now, just wait until the April 1st posts on this topic start appearing ... -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | sos@vnet.net | http://www.io.com/~sos Plymouth, NH, USA | Celebrating 25 years without a television! ###### Sender: Nathan Keir Edel From: edel@best.NOSPAM.com (Nate Edel) Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> Organization: disorganized studies of de world. X-Notice: Remove NO_SPAM from return address to reply via email. x-no-archive: yes User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.8-STABLE (i386)) Date: 31 Mar 2000 19:15:21 GMT Lines: 8 Message-ID: <38e4f949$0$213@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 954530121 213 edel@206.184.139.134 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!netnews.com!news!news2.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1955 Bryant Durrell wrote: % Yup. % Why would anyone wanna do that? Ask Linus Torvalds or Larry Wall. % People are willing to do this kinda thing, on occasion. From a cynic's POV: For software which has more revenue potential in the back-end than up-front. That'd be like giving away the text of the PhB online in the hope of making up the sales in modules... ###### From: nuelow@aol.comDELETEIT (Steve Miller) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 31 Mar 2000 19:20:04 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000331142004.01366.00000679@ng-ch1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2021 Michael T. Richter wrote: << The question, however, is why would anybody publish *FOR* *MONEY* anything under the OGL? Great. D&D-ish (not *REAL* D&D of course!) supplements can now be published under OGL without having WotC threaten everyone in sight for copyright violation. But why would someone try to sell a game based upon the OGL? Commercial enterprises doing so would be barking mad! >> You're absolutely correct. *Adventures* and *sourcebooks* that are, basically, D&D are a different matter, however. If one is going to do a stand-alone game, one might as well After all, if one can believe posts on usenet [which, of course, one can't], Judges Guild and Mayfair Games did so with tremendous financial success. Steve Miller Writer of Stuff And Jesus, he knows me, and he knows I'm right. I've been talking to Jesus all my life. --Genesis, "Jesus He Knows Me" ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:33:15 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8c322b$2ik_004@enews.newsguy.com> References: <38e36130.58094637@news.mindspring.com> <8c1npv0s8b@news2.newsguy.com> <8c2l06$3j8_002@enews.newsguy.com> <8c2o2p01lkr@news1.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-689.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2029 In article <8c2o2p01lkr@news1.newsguy.com>, durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) wrote: >Yeah, that's open source advocates for you. It's a shame it's such a >polarizing issue. I mean, it's certainly not the case that Dancey is >an exception -- Tom Christensen, notable perl guru, will tell you at >length that it's morally wrong to conceal /any/ code. And he's hardly >an isolated example. I tend to be leery of any single-solution cure. It seems to devolve inevitably into either "nobody should want anything fundamentally different than I do", "I understand your situation much better than you do", or both. (I have moments of thinking that way myself, of course, but I try not to live there.) -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 31 Mar 2000 20:37:03 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8c329f$h0p$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.70 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2106 "Michael T. Richter" writes: > The question, however, is why would anybody publish *FOR* *MONEY* > anything under the OGL? Great. D&D-ish (not *REAL* D&D of > course!) supplements can now be published under OGL without > having WotC threaten everyone in sight for copyright violation. > But why would someone try to sell a game based upon the OGL? > Commercial enterprises doing so would be barking mad! People sell Linux distributions for money, despite the fact that anybody could download them for free. People pay for the convenience. -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 31 Mar 2000 20:40:00 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8c32f0$8hi$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> <38e4f949$0$213@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.70 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2105 edel@best.NOSPAM.com (Nate Edel) writes: >Bryant Durrell wrote: >% Yup. >% Why would anyone wanna do that? Ask Linus Torvalds or Larry Wall. >% People are willing to do this kinda thing, on occasion. >From a cynic's POV: For software which has more revenue potential in the >back-end than up-front. That'd be like giving away the text of the PhB >online in the hope of making up the sales in modules... That might not be such a bad idea, actually. A given gaming group really only needs one or two copies of the core rules, but its need for modules is hypothetically infinite. Certainly for adult RPGers the need to come up with new adventures every week is the main limiting factor for a campaign. -- Dan ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> <8c329f$h0p$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 18 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:40:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954535212 204.101.128.170 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:40:12 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:40:12 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2196 Dan Bongard wrote in message news:8c329f$h0p$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net... >> The question, however, is why would anybody publish *FOR* *MONEY* >> anything under the OGL? Great. D&D-ish (not *REAL* D&D of >> course!) supplements can now be published under OGL without >> having WotC threaten everyone in sight for copyright violation. >> But why would someone try to sell a game based upon the OGL? >> Commercial enterprises doing so would be barking mad! > People sell Linux distributions for money, despite the fact > that anybody could download them for free. People pay for > the convenience. None of the places selling Linux distributions make the majority of their revenue selling Linux. That includes Red Hat. Places like Red Hat make their money from stupid investors at IPO time and, before that IPO, made it from consluting services and service calls. ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <20000329230258.13590.00002192@ng-cp1.aol.com> <8bvt56$gfc$1@hiram.io.com> <38E48D65.4F0C@wizvax.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:45:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.27 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 954535547 208.153.245.27 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:45:47 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:45:47 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2095 On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:35:01 -0500, Sea Wasp wrote: > > IMCGO, it resembles Talislanta and the old Arcanum by SMS FAR more >closely than it does Palladium. That's kind of what descriptions of it evoked to me, too...which isn't a bad thing, if you're going to use a D&D style model, the Talislanta take on it always struck me as a superior one with increased flexibility. ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 31 Mar 2000 23:47:31 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 37 Message-ID: <8c3dej$6k6$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> <8c329f$h0p$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.66 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2112 "Michael T. Richter" writes: >Dan Bongard wrote in message >news:8c329f$h0p$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net... >>> The question, however, is why would anybody publish *FOR* *MONEY* >>> anything under the OGL? Great. D&D-ish (not *REAL* D&D of >>> course!) supplements can now be published under OGL without >>> having WotC threaten everyone in sight for copyright violation. >>> But why would someone try to sell a game based upon the OGL? >>> Commercial enterprises doing so would be barking mad! >> People sell Linux distributions for money, despite the fact >> that anybody could download them for free. People pay for >> the convenience. > None of the places selling Linux distributions make the > majority of their revenue selling Linux. That includes > Red Hat. The question is "could they turn a profit doing nothing but sell Linux distributions?". The answer to that question is "yes". How they make the bulk of their revenue is not really relevant. "Open-source" gaming represents an opportunity for the small, semi-fly-by-night RPG publishing operations. They can now do "official" material without having to pay for an expensive license. This easily makes up for any hypothetical "lost revenue" due to piracy. On a side note, people are seriously overinflating the extent to which materials would be taken, altered slightly, and resold. RPGs are a tiny market with tiny profit margins; nobody publishes RPGs to make a fast buck :) -- Dan ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 1 Apr 2000 00:16:41 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 9 Message-ID: <8c3f59$rtm$2@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mhalb.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954548201 28598 149.174.240.237 (1 Apr 2000 00:16:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Apr 2000 00:16:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1991 Wayne Shaw wrote: > That's kind of what descriptions of it evoked to me, too...which > isn't a bad thing, if you're going to use a D&D style model, the > Talislanta take on it always struck me as a superior one with > increased flexibility. And probably yet another reason for WotC to kick itself for dumping Talislanta a couple of years back. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 1 Apr 2000 00:20:22 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8c3fc6$rtm$3@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <38E48E93.2812@wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhalb.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954548422 28598 149.174.240.237 (1 Apr 2000 00:20:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Apr 2000 00:20:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2002 Sea wasp wrote: >> With a new combat system, new stat system and who knows HOW >> many other changes that have yet to meet players. > Excuse me? > They've met a hell of a lot of players, including MY > group. Relatively few playtesters compared to the probable market size. And out there are the REAL RULE ABUSERS, the sort of people who make the Knights of the Dinner Table characters Brian and Bitter Stevil look like casual rule readers. In all events, it's had nowhere near the sort of playtesting that Dancy claimed it has had. ###### From: "Bradd W. Szonye" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:29:59 -0800 Organization: Hewlett-Packard ADL Lines: 54 Message-ID: <38E54307.3D882388@concentric.net> References: <8bu0qt$49p$4@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <4VJE4.577$AT2.452@198.235.216.4> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpcll180.cup.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; HP-UX B.10.01 9000/715) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!enews.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.cup.hp.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1948 "Michael T. Richter" wrote: > > SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> wrote in message > news:8bu0qt$49p$4@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com... > >> You have two choices: > >> Use the system with the Open Gaming License in a completely open > >> and unrestricted way. > >> or > >> Use the system with the Open Gaming License >and< use the D20 > >> System trademark, but accept certain restrictions. > > > More than 2 choices of course. A third being don't bother with > > the entanglements of the OGL and use another system for play. > > FUDGE being a prime candidate. You know, the "non-open" license that > someone throws fewer restrictions in your path *AND* doesn't explicitly > undermine your copyright. Do you realize that Gnu Public License undermines copyright similarly? It "abuses" copyright and licensing in order to make the copyright almost irrelevant. Open Source grants protections to the *users* of products, not the producers. The only protections to the producers is the requirement to give them credit for the source of a derivative work. Indeed, Richard Stallman, one of the big names behind Open Source and Free Software (along with Eric S. Raymond) is definitely strongly anti-copyright. In this way, the OGL is much more "Open Source" in spirit than Fudge is. Fudge is much closer to the Perl Artistic License, which basically says, "You may freely use or modify this software, but you may not sell it or a derivative work except for materials cost. You may sell products which *use* Perl, but not which *are* Perl." The GPL is much closer to the OGL (as far as I can tell; the OGL is harder to understand than the GPL), in saying: "You may use, alter, sell, or do whatever you want with this product. HOWEVER, you must make the original and derivative both easily available in modifiable form, and you must give credit to the original authors. You must also allow anyone else to use, alter, sell, or do whatever they wish with derivative works, so long as they also follow the GPL." In other words, it undermines copyright. Most folks just see the "nice" part of open source, not the "subversive" part of it. In a lot of ways, it's a trap to take away the rights of software producers. However, from a software *user's* point of view, it is a very nice license indeed. As both a software user and producer, I have mixed feelings about the GPL and Open Source in general. What you are feeling regarding the OGL is what software publishers feel about the GPL. But I must agree that the OGL is more "Open Source" than the Fudge license, by the standards of the FSF. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 1 Apr 2000 00:34:33 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8c3g6p$rtm$4@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhalb.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954549273 28598 149.174.240.237 (1 Apr 2000 00:34:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Apr 2000 00:34:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!triton.skycache.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2003 Bryant Durell wrote: > Yup. > Why would anyone wanna do that? Ask Linus Torvalds or Larry > Wall. People are willing to do this kinda thing, on occasion. In their case it's to help fight a monopolistic practicing OS provider. In the case of RPGs, OGL is the OS the closest thing to a monopolistic practicing OS provider is pushing. The license itself is unclear with regards to the degree of intellectual property protection licensees have. The rule system is either a D&D recycle or a vastly different sytem that is under playtested, and like all new systems, in need of a lot of debugging. WotC isn't going to help garage based publiser distribute, advertise or print their wares, the restrictions on one of the license would prevent the licensee from introducing a new character class type (that's generation material). So again, why would anyone use this? ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> <38e4f949$0$213@nntp1.ba.best.com> <8c32f0$8hi$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 00:35:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.32 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 954549302 208.153.245.32 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:35:02 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:35:02 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2104 On 31 Mar 2000 20:40:00 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >That might not be such a bad idea, actually. A given gaming >group really only needs one or two copies of the core rules, >but its need for modules is hypothetically infinite. Certainly >for adult RPGers the need to come up with new adventures >every week is the main limiting factor for a campaign. It may be so, but sales figures have traditionally shown that modules sell comparitively poorly relative to sourcebooks and the like. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 1 Apr 2000 00:38:49 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8c3gep$rtm$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <8c2o0601omh@news2.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhalb.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954549529 28598 149.174.240.237 (1 Apr 2000 00:38:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Apr 2000 00:38:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!triton.skycache.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2016 Bryant Durell wrote: >>> Why would anyone wanna do that? Ask Linus Torvalds or Larry >>> Wall. People are willing to do this kinda thing, on occasion. >> The question, however, is why would anybody publish *FOR* >> *MONEY* anything under the OGL? Great. D&D-ish (not *REAL* >> D&D of course!) supplements can now be published under OGL >> without having WotC threaten everyone in sight for copyright >> violation. But why would someone try to sell a game based >> upon the OGL? Commercial enterprises doing so would be barking >> mad! > Geeze, I dunno. Ask Red Hat or Cygnus. For that matter, ask > Grey Ghost. It's not like they have an exclusive license to > publish FUDGE. excuse moi, but doesn't a lot of the success of Linux and Fudge have to do with product superiority over the big monolithic competion's product, and isn't the D20 system D&D? I do believe that open source products can be revenue generators, even though I don't believe that open source is a moral necessity. ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <8c3f59$rtm$2@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 00:39:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.32 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 954549579 208.153.245.32 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:39:39 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:39:39 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2097 On 1 Apr 2000 00:16:41 GMT, SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> wrote: >Wayne Shaw wrote: > >> That's kind of what descriptions of it evoked to me, too...which >> isn't a bad thing, if you're going to use a D&D style model, the >> Talislanta take on it always struck me as a superior one with >> increased flexibility. > > And probably yet another reason for WotC to kick itself for >dumping Talislanta a couple of years back. Businesses change direction. Back then, they didn't have any plans to do anything with RPGs again. Acquiring TSR changed that. ###### Sender: Nathan Keir Edel From: edel@best.NOSPAM.com (Nate Edel) Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8c2o0601omh@news2.newsguy.com> <8c3gep$rtm$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Organization: disorganized studies of de world. X-Notice: Remove NO_SPAM from return address to reply via email. x-no-archive: yes User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.8-STABLE (i386)) Date: 01 Apr 2000 01:17:51 GMT Lines: 19 Message-ID: <38e54e3f$0$229@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 954551871 229 edel@206.184.139.134 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!newspeer1.nac.net!news.new-york.net!news!news2.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1964 SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote: % excuse moi, but doesn't a lot of the success of Linux and Fudge % have to do with product superiority over the big monolithic % competion's product, and isn't the D20 system D&D? Well, linux, yes -- from a price/performance POV even adding in time and support costs, it beats the pants off of commercial Unix except for very, very large installations (and thanks to improving SMP and clustering, it'll be beating Solaris there one of these days)... as for whether it beats NT or not, that depends on how many MS-specific technologies you mistakenly think you need, and whether or not you find NT easier to manage as a server. As for Fudge/D&D or any other RPG's, you just don't have objective benchmarks. There is no "one best system" and with a few truly broken exceptions (Synibarr, perhaps) there aren't even objectively BAD ones, because the criteria are too variable and have too much to do with personal taste. It's like asking what Ice Cream flavor is best... and just because one sells best (Vanilla, or xD&D, take your pick) doesn't reflect any inherent superiority... ###### Sender: Nathan Keir Edel From: edel@best.NOSPAM.com (Nate Edel) Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> <38e4f949$0$213@nntp1.ba.best.com> <8c32f0$8hi$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> Organization: disorganized studies of de world. X-Notice: Remove NO_SPAM from return address to reply via email. x-no-archive: yes User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.8-STABLE (i386)) Date: 01 Apr 2000 01:29:02 GMT Lines: 12 Message-ID: <38e550de$0$229@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 954552542 229 edel@206.184.139.134 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!128.32.206.55!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news2.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1963 Dan Bongard wrote: % That might not be such a bad idea, actually. A given gaming % group really only needs one or two copies of the core rules, % but its need for modules is hypothetically infinite. Certainly % for adult RPGers the need to come up with new adventures % every week is the main limiting factor for a campaign. _A_ main limitting factor perhaps. Then again, I thought that during the "decline of TSR" period, that's sort of what TSR had been doing: selling the PhB below cost in hope of making it up selling settings/modules/Compleat Nosepicker's Guides... ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Apr 2000 02:11:33 GMT References: <38E48DF4.E53@wizvax.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000331211133.07671.00000272@ng-fd1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2015 Sea Wasp wrote: > Really? Most, if not all, of the changes I've seen have definitely been >in many sets of house rules I've seen, or even have been parts of other >game's rulesets (Tal comes to mind). Quite a few of them have been MY >house rules. The way feats work and initiative were the two I was primarily thinking about. Alot of the stuff is similar to what I've seen before, but carried out with uniquely Tweetish twists. (At least, IMHO.) Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: "Ryan S. Dancey" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:28:41 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2047 Michael T. Richter wrote in message news:Sl4F4.667 > The question, however, is why would anybody publish *FOR* *MONEY* anything > under the OGL? Great. D&D-ish (not *REAL* D&D of course!) supplements can > now be published under OGL without having WotC threaten everyone in sight > for copyright violation. But why would someone try to sell a game based > upon the OGL? Commercial enterprises doing so would be barking mad! I have three answers. 1) The OGL allows a publisher to put both Open and Closed content in the same publication. That Closed content alone might be enough to drive sales to the product. Example: Let's take a look at the 7th Sea Player's Book. Assume that instead of the AEG house system, an Open Game (D20 perhaps?) is used on pages 17-32 and 116-223 (122 pages in a 256 page book, or about 47% of the manuscript). The rest of the product is all Closed content (as is some of the content in the rules portion - the art and the fiction is closed as well.) Someone takes the game system contained on those 122 pages and publishes a game to compete with 7th Sea. How far do you think they'll get? Bonus question: How much money do you think AEG spent developing, testing, redeveloping, retesting, etc. the content on those 122 pages? Consider, in your answer, that AEG has just published and distributed >for free< a 64 page book that contains errata, updates, and material left out of the original book. Bonus Bonus question; If that content had been an Open Game rather than a Closed Game, do you think AEG would have sold any fewer books? 2) 70+% of a traditional hobby game product's sales are earned in the first 90 days following its release. Assuming that a company published a product that was completely Open (in other words, nobody would have to spend time creating new art, or designing pages, etc.), most of the sales that product will ever earn will already be complete before anyone has time to re-print the product and get the product solicited and moved through the distribution system to retailers. Therefore, virtually all the revenue potential of the product is protected by the inefficiencies of the channel. 3) The very best way to get a good paying job in the gaming industry is to write and have published something that the larger companies see and respect. Small press publishers who create great content which spreads, either by their own action or the action of re-publishers, will gain direct personal benefits if they choose to view such products as resume builders. The potential upside in terms of direct pocket-book impact is tremendous. Ryan ###### From: "Ryan S. Dancey" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:39:48 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2059 Bryan J. Maloney wrote in message news:bjm10- > Really? What if I happened to publish a module that used the same IDEAS > of the D&D rules but didn't actually QUOTE the text used by a TSR product? You have to be careful to avoid producing a "translation" as that term is applied in the copyright statutes. A court could decide that what you've produced is a translation of our work, and thus an infringing, derivative work. Now, if you just used the larger themes and ideas and created a whole new work, clearly you'd be outside the definition of a translation. There are a million, unique, stories where the butler did it. > Your definition of "derivative" is remarkably slippery... Just to be clear; There >is< no definition of derivative - at least in US law. The law is purposefuly vague to allow individual courts to rule on these issues on a case by case basis. In other words, there are no hard and fast rules; just what any given lawyer can convince any given judge to agree with on any given day. Ryan ###### From: "Ryan S. Dancey" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:13:06 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 113 Message-ID: References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2063 I like Michael's questions so much, I'm tempted to cut 'n paste this discussion into a message on www.opengamingfoundation.org so that interested readers can see the kinds of underhanded tactics that people who fear the concept of Open Games will use in a desperate attempt to avoid dealing with the real issues of the debate. Michael T. Richter wrote in message news:xOJE4.575 > OK. FUDGE in other words. Only with FUDGE there is one less restriction -- > you're allowed to use the FUDGE name *AND* have character generation. So, you have read the Open Gaming License and you know that there are no restrictions whatsoever on the content any person can publish using that license. Therefore, I take the above quote from your message to be a direct attempt to be misleading - a deliberate attempt to create a false impression. That's kind of underhanded, don't you think? Michael, you can't win an argument when the facts are in evidence by ignoring them. First, the fact is that Open Gaming doesn't restrict anyone from publishing character generation rules - or any other content. Period. Full stop. You know that, because you've read the Open Gaming License. Second, the fact is that the FUDGE license is a restrictive licence and that it does, in fact, have numerous restrictions on the ability to copy, modify, and distribute FUDGE content. Period. Full stop. You know that, because you've read the FUDGE License. So I wonder what exactly you believe that your arguments to the contrary are achieving? Any person who chooses to do so can read the text of both licenses, and see immediately that what you're claiming is obviously, factually wrong. Who will believe anything else you have to say on the matter? > > The FUDGE license is a restrictive license that does not allow > > contributors to assert copyright in their contributions; nor does it > > ensure that such contributions will remain Open. > > Excuse me? And your OGF license does permit contributors to assert > copyright? Precisely how? As you know Michael, the Open Gaming License contains the following section: "3.3.1. You must append a copy of the notice provided in this license identified as Exhibit A to any Publication You distribute that includes the Covered Materials, updated where indicated to ensure a proper assertion of copyright, and to note the Contributors of works that the Covered Materials are derived from." > You've just stated (in your web page) that the contributor *HAS* no copyright As you know Michael, the material at www.opengaminfoundation.org/foundation.html does not in any way, shape or form say that you cannot assert copyright to your original contributions. Any one reading this message can look at that page and realize that your claim is another deliberate mis-statement of the facts. Your credibility continues to decline. > What copyright protection is left? You can sue any person who uses your work outside the terms of the license for copyright infringement. You can sell the rights to your work to any person willing to pay. You can choose when, why, and how to release your work to the public. Those are all copyright protections, Michael - they are at the heart of what a >copy< ... >right< is - the >right< to determine by whom, how and why a person's creative work can be >copied<. But you already knew that, didn't you? > Credit? That plus a buck gets you a coffee. And clearly, preserving credit for one's own creative work is a vital part of any copyright >license< like the Open Gaming License. > And would you care to actually substantiate the claim that FUDGE > contributors can't assert copyright directly from the FUDGE license? From the FUDGE license, I extracted the following text, which >must< be included in any distribution of materials derived from FUDGE (I used the link at www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/frp/fudge/fudge0.html#seci): "DISCLAIMER The following materials based on FUDGE, entitled [your title], are created by [your name] and made available by [name], and are not authorized or endorsed in any way by Steffan O'Sullivan or any publisher of other FUDGE materials. Neither Steffan O'Sullivan or any publisher of other FUDGE material is in any way responsible for the content of these materials. Original FUDGE materials (c) Copyright 1992-1995 Steffan O'Sullivan, All Rights Reserved." The statement "and are not authorized or endorsed by Steffan O'Sullivan" is the important clause. The words "not authorized" mean that any work published that uses this DISCLAIMER is acknowledging that the publisher >is not authorized< to publish such material. An >unauthorized derivative work< cannot, by statute, be copyright to the creator of the work. > In > either case this makes him less than trustworthy as a reporter of someone > else's words. And you sir, are revealed as a person who knowingly makes false statements and does so with the malicious intent of misleading the public. Ryan ###### From: berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:55:56 +0200 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inc=E1nus?= Lines: 45 Message-ID: <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin006.iskon.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 954575757 12422 195.29.170.145 (1 Apr 2000 07:55:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Apr 2000 07:55:57 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!berislav.lopac Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2242 Ryan S. Dancey wrote: > 1) The OGL allows a publisher to put both Open and Closed content in the > same publication. That Closed content alone might be enough to drive sales > to the product. > > Example: Let's take a look at the 7th Sea Player's Book. > > Assume that instead of the AEG house system, an Open Game (D20 perhaps?) is > used on pages 17-32 and 116-223 (122 pages in a 256 page book, or about 47% > of the manuscript). The rest of the product is all Closed content (as is > some of the content in the rules portion - the art and the fiction is closed > as well.) > > Someone takes the game system contained on those 122 pages and publishes a > game to compete with 7th Sea. How far do you think they'll get? > > Bonus question: How much money do you think AEG spent developing, testing, > redeveloping, retesting, etc. the content on those 122 pages? Consider, in > your answer, that AEG has just published and distributed >for free< a 64 > page book that contains errata, updates, and material left out of the > original book. > > Bonus Bonus question; If that content had been an Open Game rather than a > Closed Game, do you think AEG would have sold any fewer books? And what if, instead of using D20, they went for, say, Fudge? Which is not Open, but they could get the licence for free and still retaing the rights for any cool rules modification they thought of. And, besides: no, AEG or any company of similar size (in this business, of course; they're still small on a global level) could afford to use a system which is not developed in-house. Why? Simply because that would make them look unprofessional and cheap, no matter how expensively they garnish their book. Your concept might work for newbies, who might benefit from using another system in their products. But most of them don't risk everything to publish their books and they don't need a quick return like what you speak of. And they usually have more time to develop their own system. -- Incanus: incanus@incanus.com Incanus homepage: http://www.incanus.com Incanus Games: http://www.incanus.com/games/ ###### Message-ID: <38E60CE8.B4D3957D@home.com> From: Allister Huggins Reply-To: alhuggins@REMOVESPAMhome.com Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38E48E93.2812@wizvax.net> <8c3fc6$rtm$3@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 11:41:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.114.17.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.on.home.com 954589274 24.114.17.147 (Sat, 01 Apr 2000 03:41:14 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 03:41:14 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2224 SD Anderson wrote: > > Sea wasp wrote: > > They've met a hell of a lot of players, including MY > > group. > size. And out there are the REAL RULE ABUSERS, the sort of people > who make the Knights of the Dinner Table characters Brian and > Bitter Stevil look like casual rule readers. RPGA. Nuff said. > In all events, it's had nowhere near the sort of playtesting > that Dancy claimed it has had. Probably more than any other game, I wager. Allister H. ###### Message-ID: <38E6145B.6D39486E@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 12:16:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.0.219 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 954591396 216.154.0.219 (Sat, 01 Apr 2000 07:16:36 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 07:16:36 EST Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:1879 Berislav Lopac wrote: > And, besides: no, AEG or any company of similar size (in this business, > of course; they're still small on a global level) could afford to use a > system which is not developed in-house. Why? Simply because that would > make them look unprofessional and cheap, no matter how expensively they > garnish their book. I'm pretty sure the only thing that will make a publisher look unprofessional and cheap will be the packaging of their game. You'll have to explain the process you think using the OGL would create a perception of unprofessionalism or cheapness a little better, because I can't think up one myself. > Your concept might work for newbies, who might benefit from using > another system in their products. But most of them don't risk everything > to publish their books and they don't need a quick return like what you > speak of. And they usually have more time to develop their own system. As pointed out by Ryan elsewhere, there only exists a "quick" return in this market, much like the comic book direct sales market. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 31 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 12:27:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 954592032 166.82.1.7 (Sat, 01 Apr 2000 07:27:12 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 07:27:12 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!nexus.news.chello.be!news.tvd.be!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2311 Ryan S. Dancey wrote: >"DISCLAIMER >The following materials based on FUDGE, entitled [your title], are >created by [your name] and made available by [name], and are not >authorized or endorsed in any way by Steffan O'Sullivan or any >publisher of other FUDGE materials. Neither Steffan O'Sullivan or >any publisher of other FUDGE material is in any way responsible for >the content of these materials. Original FUDGE materials (c) >Copyright 1992-1995 Steffan O'Sullivan, All Rights Reserved." > >The statement "and are not authorized or endorsed by Steffan O'Sullivan" is >the important clause. The words "not authorized" mean that any work >published that uses this DISCLAIMER is acknowledging that the publisher >is >not authorized< to publish such material. An >unauthorized derivative work< >cannot, by statute, be copyright to the creator of the work. Uh, Ryan, that would be up to the courts to decide. I'm sorry, you're not a final arbiter on what that phrase means. The lawyer who suggested that wording certainly disagrees with you, for example. So please, do NOT make that claim you are making - that has not been proven in court, and is certainly NOT the intention of the Fudge legal notice, which was written by a lawyer with the opposite intention. However, to make it clearer, Fudge will be changing that part anyway, so you can please drop this argument from your repetoire against Fudge, thank you. -- -Steffan O'Sullivan | sos@vnet.net | http://www.io.com/~sos Plymouth, NH, USA | Celebrating 25 years without a television! ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Apr 2000 13:19:57 GMT References: <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000401081957.08179.00000424@ng-fe1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2344 Incanus wrote: >And, besides: no, AEG or any company of similar size (in this business, >of course; they're still small on a global level) could afford to use a >system which is not developed in-house. Why? Simply because that would >make them look unprofessional and cheap, no matter how expensively they >garnish their book. While I continue to have difficulty believing that the OGL is going to do anything of much significance, I've got to disagree with this. Using a system you licensed from someone else doesn't make you look "cheap" or "unprofessional". What makes you look cheap and unprofessional is using huge margins, wasted white space, and charging $60 for the core rules of your game while not including ship building rules. They already *did* that. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 17:18:31 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8c5b17$2r0_004@enews.newsguy.com> References: <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000401081957.08179.00000424@ng-fe1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-916.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2327 In article <20000401081957.08179.00000424@ng-fe1.aol.com>, triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote: >anything of much significance, I've got to disagree with this. Using a system >you licensed from someone else doesn't make you look "cheap" or >"unprofessional". What makes you look cheap and unprofessional is using huge >margins, wasted white space, and charging $60 for the core rules of your game >while not including ship building rules. They already *did* that. Herein is much wisdom. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 1 Apr 2000 18:42:15 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8c5fu7$n3b$1@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mhakn.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954614535 23659 149.174.242.226 (1 Apr 2000 18:42:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Apr 2000 18:42:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2320 Ryan Dancy wrote: > "DISCLAIMER > The following materials based on FUDGE, entitled [your title], are > created by [your name] and made available by [name], and are not > authorized or endorsed in any way by Steffan O'Sullivan or any > publisher of other FUDGE materials. Neither Steffan O'Sullivan or > any publisher of other FUDGE material is in any way responsible for > the content of these materials. Original FUDGE materials (c) > Copyright 1992-1995 Steffan O'Sullivan, All Rights Reserved." > The statement "and are not authorized or endorsed by Steffan O'Sullivan" is > the important clause. The words "not authorized" mean that any work > published that uses this DISCLAIMER is acknowledging that the publisher >is > not authorized< to publish such material. An >unauthorized derivative work< > cannot, by statute, be copyright to the creator It's not nice to take things out of context. The Disclaimer CLEARLY notes this is in reference to 'the content of these materials". If I were to make an actionable FUDGE product and Steffan published it, he'd be liable to a lawsuit, since publishers are liable for what they publish. This clearly is there to establish beyond question that O'Sullivan is NOT a party to any *content* related legal difficulties related to that work. Nothing more. Stretching the interpretation of that disclaimer to attempt to support your claims is a fairly cheesy action. ###### From: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 1 Apr 2000 18:53:13 GMT Organization: Semiotic Marines, Altoid Squad Lines: 24 Message-ID: <8c5gip017l8@news1.newsguy.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8c2o0601omh@news2.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-541.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2316 In article , Steffan O'Sullivan wrote: >Bryant Durrell wrote: >>For that matter, ask Grey Ghost. >>It's not like they have an exclusive license to publish FUDGE. > >Actually, Grey Ghost *does* have an exclusive license to publish >*Fudge itself* in English for a fee. They don't have an exclusive >license to publish Fudge-related material, however, which could include >Fudge modified to a specific genre, for example. Anyone can get a >license from me to do that. And anyone can give Fudge itself away for >free. But I have been approached with an offer to publish Fudge itself >by another publisher, and turned it down because of Grey Ghost's >exclusive license. My bad. This does make FUDGE pretty much not open, despite the legions of people saying it's more open than swiss cheese, though. Not that there's anything wrong with being closed. -- Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] "America has been discovered before, but it has always been hushed up." -- Oscar Wilde ###### From: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 1 Apr 2000 18:59:17 GMT Organization: Semiotic Marines, Altoid Squad Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8c5gu5017vm@news1.newsguy.com> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-680.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!128.223.220.30!logbridge.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2318 In article <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr>, Berislav Lopac wrote: >And, besides: no, AEG or any company of similar size (in this business, >of course; they're still small on a global level) could afford to use a >system which is not developed in-house. Why? Simply because that would >make them look unprofessional and cheap, no matter how expensively they >garnish their book. Ow, that's kind of harsh. I wouldn't say Grey Ghost looks unprofessional and cheap... -- Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] "America has been discovered before, but it has always been hushed up." -- Oscar Wilde ###### From: berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 21:09:59 +0200 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inc=E1nus?= Lines: 23 Message-ID: <1e8fhb3.125w8h54vgli2N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000401081957.08179.00000424@ng-fe1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin016.iskon.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 954616201 20754 195.29.170.155 (1 Apr 2000 19:10:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Apr 2000 19:10:01 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!berislav.lopac Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2400 Justin Bacon wrote: > >And, besides: no, AEG or any company of similar size (in this business, > >of course; they're still small on a global level) could afford to use a > >system which is not developed in-house. Why? Simply because that would > >make them look unprofessional and cheap, no matter how expensively they > >garnish their book. > > While I continue to have difficulty believing that the OGL is going to do > anything of much significance, I've got to disagree with this. Using a system > you licensed from someone else doesn't make you look "cheap" or > "unprofessional". What makes you look cheap and unprofessional is using huge > margins, wasted white space, and charging $60 for the core rules of your game > while not including ship building rules. They already *did* that. Let me repeat *again*: I'm *not* talking about licencing D20! I'm talking about taking D20, altering it enough that you can't get the licence, and publishing it just under OGL. -- Incanus: incanus@incanus.com Incanus homepage: http://www.incanus.com Incanus Games: http://www.incanus.com/games/ ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000401081957.08179.00000424@ng-fe1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 19:56:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.28 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 954618976 208.153.245.28 (Sat, 01 Apr 2000 11:56:16 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 11:56:16 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2384 On 01 Apr 2000 13:19:57 GMT, triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote: >While I continue to have difficulty believing that the OGL is going to do >anything of much significance, I've got to disagree with this. Using a system >you licensed from someone else doesn't make you look "cheap" or >"unprofessional". What makes you look cheap and unprofessional is using huge >margins, wasted white space, and charging $60 for the core rules of your game >while not including ship building rules. They already *did* that. If you're talking about Alternity, Justin, that's nonsense...at least the last part. The GMs book had ship building rules. It just didn't have _capital_ ship building rules. Given in most of the SF games I've ever seen capital ships rarely were anything but a plot device, I hardly think that's a great crime. ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000401081957.08179.00000424@ng-fe1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 20:06:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.28 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 954619610 208.153.245.28 (Sat, 01 Apr 2000 12:06:50 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 12:06:50 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2390 On Sat, 01 Apr 2000 19:56:16 GMT, Wayne Shaw wrote: >On 01 Apr 2000 13:19:57 GMT, triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote: > > >>While I continue to have difficulty believing that the OGL is going to do >>anything of much significance, I've got to disagree with this. Using a system >>you licensed from someone else doesn't make you look "cheap" or >>"unprofessional". What makes you look cheap and unprofessional is using huge >>margins, wasted white space, and charging $60 for the core rules of your game >>while not including ship building rules. They already *did* that. > >If you're talking about Alternity, Justin, that's nonsense...at least >the last part. The GMs book had ship building rules. It just didn't >have _capital_ ship building rules. Given in most of the SF games >I've ever seen capital ships rarely were anything but a plot device, I >hardly think that's a great crime. Alright, so I'm an idiot and had forgotten what example game the first poster had used that Justin was responding to... ###### From: Travis Casey Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 19:37:54 -0500 Organization: Who's Organized? Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <8c5gu5017vm@news1.newsguy.com> X-Trace: hiram.io.com 954635606 30605 199.44.20.59 (2 Apr 2000 00:33:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@io.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30.1751 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!news-feeds.jump.net!solomon.io.com!hiram.io.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2328 Bryant Durrell (durrell@innocence.com) wrote... > Berislav Lopac wrote: > >And, besides: no, AEG or any company of similar size (in this business, > >of course; they're still small on a global level) could afford to use a > >system which is not developed in-house. Why? Simply because that would > >make them look unprofessional and cheap, no matter how expensively they > >garnish their book. > > Ow, that's kind of harsh. I wouldn't say Grey Ghost looks unprofessional > and cheap... Not to mention Eden Studios (Unisystem was originally developed under someone else, and so was Conspiracy X), Green Knight (current publishers of Pendragon), the guys who are doing Blood of Heroes (using the old MEGS system from DC Heroes), Rubicon Games (current publishers of Everway), Atlas Games (current publishers of Ars Magica), and WotC (current publishers of AD&D). Not to mention Avalon Hill before Hasbro bought them out (they had James Bond and Runequest). I've seen a lot of systems bounce around from publisher to publisher, because they were good but offbeat enough not to make a lot of money. I don't think of the publishers who take them over as cheap -- I think of them as smart enough to know a good thing when they see it. -- |\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me. |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Apr 2000 04:19:53 GMT References: <1e8fhb3.125w8h54vgli2N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000401231953.05989.00000403@ng-cq1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!triton.skycache.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2348 Incanus wrote: >> While I continue to have difficulty believing that the OGL is going to do >> anything of much significance, I've got to disagree with this. Using a system >> you licensed from someone else doesn't make you look "cheap" or >> "unprofessional". What makes you look cheap and unprofessional is using huge >> margins, wasted white space, and charging $60 for the core rules of your game >> while not including ship building rules. They already *did* that. > >Let me repeat *again*: I'm *not* talking about licencing D20! I'm >talking about taking D20, altering it enough that you can't get the >licence, and publishing it just under OGL. OGL = Open Gaming *LICENSE* Sheesh. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 08:49:33 +0200 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inc=E1nus?= Lines: 22 Message-ID: <1e8gdnx.oa4vszbpbkmuN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000401081957.08179.00000424@ng-fe1.aol.com> <1e8fhb3.125w8h54vgli2N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000401231953.05989.00000403@ng-cq1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin010.iskon.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 954658173 15481 195.29.170.149 (2 Apr 2000 06:49:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Apr 2000 06:49:33 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!aconews.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!CARNet.hr!argos.tel.hr!berislav.lopac Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2251 Justin Bacon wrote: > >Let me repeat *again*: I'm *not* talking about licencing D20! I'm > >talking about taking D20, altering it enough that you can't get the > >licence, and publishing it just under OGL. > > OGL = Open Gaming *LICENSE* > > Sheesh. *sigh* Please read all the posts before sheeshing someone. It's rude. There are two licences -- one is the OGL, and the other one is if you wish to licence your product as being D20 compatible and get the right to use the logo on the cover. They're two completely separate licences, and Ryan has explicitly said that you can use a) just OGL, or b) OGL + D20L. -- Incanus: incanus@incanus.com Incanus homepage: http://www.incanus.com Incanus Games: http://www.incanus.com/games/ ###### Message-ID: <38E6EE45.1643C8B3@clear.net.nz> From: tussock X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 18:52:53 +1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.167.192.3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clear.net.nz X-Trace: news.clear.net.nz 954684756 203.167.192.3 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 02:12:36 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 02:12:36 NZST Organization: CLEAR Net http://www.clear.net.nz/ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.clear.net.nz!news.clear.net.nz.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2259 "Michael T. Richter" wrote:
> The Open Game definition appears at
> www.opengamingfoundation.org/foundation.html.

Ah!  Here we have the catch: "This means that you could purchase an Open
Gaming product, and make unlimited copies of the Open Gaming material that
product contains and give those copies away free of charge.  The Open Gaming
License also gives you the right to modify any Open Gaming content to add,
subtract, or alter that content as you see fit."  In other words you want to
stick it to any competitors who are stupid enough to use your "open" game
license.  Got it.

You do realise that under this term it is possible to publish an "open"
game, sell one copy and then have that copy replicated (and/or altered) and
sold over and over and over again by the person who bought the one copy,
right?  No *WONDER* WotC/Hasbro isn't putting D&D3 out under the "open
gaming" license.  Only an idiot would try to sell anything based on it.

    Exactly. The Open gaming portion. Not the graphics. Not the artistic layout. Not the descriptive text. Not the in depth discussion of tactics for the major NPC.
    In fact, all that must be under the d20 licence is the game mechanics, like, the stuff that you can't copyrite anyway.

    IANALNDIPOOTV. This is all just my understanding of it. Yes I have been paying attention. 8]

--
  tussock

It's bleedin' seabird flavoured, isn't it?
  ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:41:17 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8c7bks$uep$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <38E48E93.2812@wizvax.net> <8c3fc6$rtm$3@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <38E60CE8.B4D3957D@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.44.1 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Apr 02 11:41:17 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x28.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.192.44.1 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsd_anderson Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2286 In article <38E60CE8.B4D3957D@home.com>, alhuggins@REMOVESPAMhome.com wrote: > SD Anderson wrote: > > > > Sea wasp wrote: > > > > > > They've met a hell of a lot of players, including MY > > > group. > > > > > size. And out there are the REAL RULE ABUSERS, the sort of people > > who make the Knights of the Dinner Table characters Brian and > > Bitter Stevil look like casual rule readers. > > RPGA. Nuff said. > > > In all events, it's had nowhere near the sort of playtesting > > that Dancy claimed it has had. > > Probably more than any other game, I wager. > > Allister H. Doubtful, a few months playtesting of 3e/D20 rules vs nearly 25 years of T&T, about 20 years of in the field play Hero, Rolemaster and Palladium, 15 years of GURPS, 10 years of StoryTeller, and a host of other games? > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Apr 2000 19:30:40 GMT References: <1e8gdnx.oa4vszbpbkmuN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000402153040.27881.00000627@ng-fq1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!triton.skycache.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2346 Incanus wrote: >*sigh* Please read all the posts before sheeshing someone. It's rude. All right, you hypocritical buffoon, I'm reading what you're writing. What I Wrote: "While I continue to have difficulty believing that the OGL is going to do anything of much significance, I've got to disagree with this. Using a system you licensed from someone else doesn't make you look "cheap" or "unprofessional". What makes you look cheap and unprofessional is using huge margins, wasted white space, and charging $60 for the core rules of your game while not including ship building rules. They already *did* that." Notice, if you please, the complete absence of the words "D20". What you wrote in reply: "Let me repeat *again*: I'm *not* talking about licensing D20! I'm talking about taking D20, altering it enough that you can't get the license, and publishing it just under OGL." I read this a couple of times trying to figure out what the hell you were talking about, and then eventually concluded that you were picking up on the word "license" in my original message. It was the only thing which made sense, because -- as I've noted -- I didn't say *anything* about the D20 trademark or the D20 trademark license (just the OGL's hypothetical use in AEG's 7th Sea). So I replied: "OGL = Open Gaming *LICENSE*" And now you say: >There are two licences -- one is the OGL, and the other one is if you >wish to licence your product as being D20 compatible and get the right >to use the logo on the cover. They're two completely separate licences, >and Ryan has explicitly said that you can use a) just OGL, or b) OGL + >D20L. Which continues to have no relevance to *anything* that I said. So, as I was saying: Read my messages before you reply, you hypocritical buffoon. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:57:25 +0200 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inc=E1nus?= Lines: 16 Message-ID: <1e8hgx4.bx0uweehm7ywN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000401081957.08179.00000424@ng-fe1.aol.com> <1e8fhb3.125w8h54vgli2N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000401231953.05989.00000403@ng-cq1.aol.com> <1e8gdnx.oa4vszbpbkmuN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000402153040.27881.00000627@ng-fq1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin017.iskon.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 954709046 15926 195.29.170.156 (2 Apr 2000 20:57:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Apr 2000 20:57:26 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!CARNet.hr!argos.tel.hr!berislav.lopac Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2411 Justin Bacon wrote: > Which continues to have no relevance to *anything* that I said. Which still has nothing to do with anything *I* said. > So, as I was saying: Read my messages before you reply, you hypocritical > buffoon. Thank you very much, sir, for your kind words. I'm just sorry your parents haven't taught you to be polite. -- Incanus: incanus@incanus.com Incanus homepage: http://www.incanus.com Incanus Games: http://www.incanus.com/games/ ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 03 Apr 2000 00:32:14 GMT References: <1e8hgx4.bx0uweehm7ywN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000402203214.08184.00000589@ng-fe1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!frnkge1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2595 >Justin Bacon wrote: > >> Which continues to have no relevance to *anything* that I said. > >Which still has nothing to do with anything *I* said. Oh? 1. You wrote: "And, besides: no, AEG or any company of similar size (in this business, of course; they're still small on a global level) could afford to use a system which is not developed in-house. Why? Simply because that would make them look unprofessional and cheap, no matter how expensively they garnish their book." (Notice the complete lack of any mention of D20 or the OGL. This is just a generic statement regarding AEG "or any company of similar size" using a "system which is not developed in-house".) 2. I state my opinion that using a licensed system (for example, the OGL) does *not* make a company look "cheap" or "unprofessional". 3. You reply, sceaming at me that you're not talking about the D20 license, you're talking about the OGL. 4. I point out that I *am* talking about the OGL. 5. You reply, screaming at me that it's rude not to read your messages -- you're talking about the OGL, not the D20 license. 6. I reply again, pointing out that you're being hypocritical in an amusingly buffoonish manner by accusing me of not reading your messages, because I *have* been talking about the OGL -- not the D20 license. 7. You reply again, claiming that none of this has any relevance to *anything* that you've said. (Despite the fact you were replying to a message in which I quoted almost the entire exchange.) At this point I've concluded you're either an idiot or a liar. Take your pick. >Thank you very much, sir, for your kind words. I'm just sorry your >parents haven't taught you to be polite. And it's too bad your parents haven't taught you -- oh king of the playground taunts -- to read and write. It would have saved us all a great deal of trouble. For the record: I tried being polite. You persevered in your ignorance and then attacked me personally while being a hypocrite yourself. That isn't my fault. That's your fault. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <38E48E93.2812@wizvax.net> <8c3fc6$rtm$3@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <38E60CE8.B4D3957D@home.com> <8c7bks$uep$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 01:28:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.34 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 954725329 208.153.245.34 (Sun, 02 Apr 2000 18:28:49 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 18:28:49 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!novia!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2664 On Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:41:17 GMT, SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote: > Doubtful, a few months playtesting of 3e/D20 rules vs nearly 25 >years of T&T, about 20 years of in the field play Hero, Rolemaster and >Palladium, 15 years of GURPS, 10 years of StoryTeller, and a host of >other games? Depends on how you view the benefits of active playtesting (and one would presume, though I don't know) blind testing versus the defacto version having a game on the market place does, and the man hour equation (are 6 people working on something for 10 years better or worse than 60 people working on it for six months?) ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 03:55:41 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8c94nn$q21$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <38E48E93.2812@wizvax.net> <8c3fc6$rtm$3@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <38E60CE8.B4D3957D@home.com> <8c7bks$uep$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.6.92 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Apr 03 03:55:41 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x39.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.192.6.92 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsd_anderson Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2465 In article , Wayne Shaw wrote: > On Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:41:17 GMT, SD Anderson > <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote: > > > Doubtful, a few months playtesting of 3e/D20 rules vs nearly 25 > >years of T&T, about 20 years of in the field play Hero, Rolemaster and > >Palladium, 15 years of GURPS, 10 years of StoryTeller, and a host of > >other games? > > Depends on how you view the benefits of active playtesting (and one > would presume, though I don't know) blind testing versus the defacto > version having a game on the market place does, and the man hour > equation (are 6 people working on something for 10 years better or > worse than 60 people working on it for six months?) In the simplest sense, 60 people x 0.5 years = 30 people years. 6 people working 10 years = 60 years, a 2:1 ratio. The issue here is that both numbers (based on sales of the games listed earlier) and time spent playing the games (up to 25 years) favors the existing games over the 3e playtesters. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: rogers@prefect.com (Rogers) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 04:27:51 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: <38f41b90.95071388@news.aug.com> References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> Reply-To: rogers@prefect.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2474 On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:39:48 -0800, "Ryan S. Dancey" wrote: >The law is purposefuly vague to allow individual courts to rule on >these issues on a case by case basis. Or the law is stacked so that multimillion dollar companies with lucrative copyrights and trademarks have a natural advantage over everyone else on these matters, because they're the people who can afford intellectual property lawyers. Disney has so much pull they got Congress to kill public domain for the next 20 years to save Steamboat Fucking Willie. Companies like that are more than capable of keeping "derivative work" vague. A real definition of derivative work would be like an open gaming license, giving people ground rules they could count on before venturing into the murky and litigous waters of copyright law. Thanks to legal vagueness, companies like TSR could take a laughably expansive view of the definition of derivative work, threaten legal sturm un drang on anyone who didn't share that view, and usually get away with it. Even if nothing else good comes of the OGL, it will be nice to see real ground rules laid down regarding for-profit work that involves D&D in some capacity and will not get a cease-and-desist letter from D&D's publisher. ###### From: rogers@prefect.com (Rogers) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 04:36:39 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <38f51efb.95946345@news.aug.com> References: <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Reply-To: rogers@prefect.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2520 On Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:55:56 +0200, berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) wrote: >And, besides: no, AEG or any company of similar size (in this business, >of course; they're still small on a global level) could afford to use a >system which is not developed in-house. Why? Simply because that would >make them look unprofessional and cheap, no matter how expensively they >garnish their book. And no system administrator is going to adopt Linux because it's a toy operating system developed by hackers instead of a big, professional company like Microsoft which prints up boxes and everything. Grey Ghost Games is selling printed copies of FUDGE, and from what I've seen of the book online it doesn't look unprofessional or cheap. If a game is good and is designed and printed professionally, it isn't going to matter whether it was developed in-house or not. Do Kathie Lee Gifford cargo pants fit any less well because a 10-year-old knitted them in Ecuador instead of a downsized auto worker in Flint, Michigan? ###### From: rogers@prefect.com (Rogers) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 04:43:30 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 9 Message-ID: <38f62043.96274050@news.aug.com> References: <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8cs05.8ojvso163oohsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38e7c83d.30207987@news.aug.com> Reply-To: rogers@prefect.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2459 On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 23:55:03 +0100, colin@Yelm.freeserve.co.uk (Colin Smith) wrote: >I don't think Open Source (specifically the GPL) gives you an >incentive for improving code. I think opportunity is often more than enough incentive in a creative community. Open Source is a promise that if you put the time into improving a work, you can make your improvements available to others without legal hassles. ###### From: rogers@prefect.com (Rogers) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 05:11:13 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: <38f926f4.97987371@news.aug.com> References: <8bu0qt$49p$4@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <4VJE4.577$AT2.452@198.235.216.4> <38E54307.3D882388@concentric.net> Reply-To: rogers@prefect.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2487 On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:29:59 -0800, "Bradd W. Szonye" wrote: >In other words, it undermines copyright. >Most folks just see the "nice" part of open source, not the "subversive" >part of it. In a lot of ways, it's a trap to take away the rights of >software producers. How can it be a trap? Are software producers too stupid to know the implications of using GPL material before they make use of it and distribute their product? If that's the case, they have bigger problems than a "subversive" license that "undermines copyright." The purpose of copyright law was to provide an incentive to create work by giving the creator ownership for a limited period of time. The purpose of open source is to provide an incentive to create work *and* build on the work of others in a mutually beneficial manner. That's not subverting the founding principle of copyright law; it's supporting it. ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 06:41:47 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8c9efb$360_002@enews.newsguy.com> References: <38d871c9.52193788@90.0.0.1> <38D39DD4.40DC8632@fudgerpg.com> <38d63b53.607801694@news.theramp.net> <38f41b90.95071388@news.aug.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-202.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2591 In article <38f41b90.95071388@news.aug.com>, rogers@prefect.com wrote: >Disney has so much pull they got Congress to kill public domain for >the next 20 years to save Steamboat Fucking Willie. Companies like Though they always get vigorous help in this in international negotiations - the government of Germany works very hard to keep extending copyright so that Mein Kampf (to which the government holds the copyright) won't go public domain. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 06:44:47 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8c9ekv$360_004@enews.newsguy.com> References: <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8cs05.8ojvso163oohsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38e7c83d.30207987@news.aug.com> <38f62043.96274050@news.aug.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-216.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2610 In article <38f62043.96274050@news.aug.com>, rogers@prefect.com wrote: >community. Open Source is a promise that if you put the time into >improving a work, you can make your improvements available to others >without legal hassles. Though I remain skeptical that in fact there are a huge number of people who _want_ to make their improvements available to others without legal hassles who aren't motivated as it is to a) use an existing system or b) publish their own. See Brian Gleichman's series of reviews of free RPGs online for examples of the latter. I think that what potential creators are most looking for is someone else's system they can use as a starting point. It remains to be seen whether the OGL terms will suffice to make the D&D mechanics look sufficiently appealing for this purpose. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <38E48E93.2812@wizvax.net> <8c3fc6$rtm$3@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <38E60CE8.B4D3957D@home.com> <8c7bks$uep$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8c94nn$q21$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 08:04:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.34 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 954749065 208.153.245.34 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 01:04:25 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 01:04:25 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2646 On Mon, 03 Apr 2000 03:55:41 GMT, SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote: >In article , > Wayne Shaw wrote: >> On Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:41:17 GMT, SD Anderson >> <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote: >> >> > Doubtful, a few months playtesting of 3e/D20 rules vs nearly 25 >> >years of T&T, about 20 years of in the field play Hero, Rolemaster >and >> >Palladium, 15 years of GURPS, 10 years of StoryTeller, and a host of >> >other games? >> >> Depends on how you view the benefits of active playtesting (and one >> would presume, though I don't know) blind testing versus the defacto >> version having a game on the market place does, and the man hour >> equation (are 6 people working on something for 10 years better or >> worse than 60 people working on it for six months?) > > In the simplest sense, 60 people x 0.5 years = 30 people years. 6 >people working 10 years = 60 years, a 2:1 ratio. > > The issue here is that both numbers (based on sales of the games >listed earlier) and time spent playing the games (up to 25 years) >favors the existing games over the 3e playtesters. But does it favor the latter over all the _rest_ of the hobby or not? That would largely depend on how many playtesters they have and how long it's been going on. I personally doubt it, but I don't doubt it's at least possible. ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38f2fdf1.28141197@news.aug.com> <38e8c8c1.30340672@news.aug.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 19 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:59:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954777572 204.101.128.170 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 11:59:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 11:59:32 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2754 Rogers wrote in message news:38e8c8c1.30340672@news.aug.com... >> FUDGE's commercial license doesn't say "you must permit anyone and >> everyone to take your work and replicate it up the wazoo for free". > With the possible exception of the OpenContent and GNU documentation > licenses, which I'm still trying to figure out, no open gaming license > says that either. From http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/foundation.html: "This means that you could purchase an Open Gaming product, and make unlimited copies of the Open Gaming material that product contains and give those copies away free of charge." The actual license doesn't say this, of course, because the actual license doesn't say anything at all at this stage. But the statement of intent at the OGF is quite clear (or written by incompetents). ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 69 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:08:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954778093 204.101.128.170 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 12:08:13 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 12:08:13 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2757 Ryan S. Dancey wrote in message news:seb4orsd982@corp.supernews.com... > Michael, you can't win an argument when the facts are in evidence by > ignoring them. You should keep this in mind yourself, Dancey. > First, the fact is that Open Gaming doesn't restrict anyone from > publishing character generation rules - or any other content. Period. > Full stop. You know that, because you've read the Open Gaming License. Agreed. It is the *D20* BRAND NAME which cannot be used. Period. Full stop. FUDGE, the BRAND NAME *can* be used in derivative products. > Second, the fact is that the FUDGE license is a restrictive licence and that > it does, in fact, have numerous restrictions on the ability to copy, modify, > and distribute FUDGE content. Period. Full stop. You know that, because > you've read the FUDGE License. Quote the relevant passage from the FUDGE license, then, shit-for-brains. > As you know Michael, the material at > www.opengaminfoundation.org/foundation.html does not in any way, shape or > form say that you cannot assert copyright to your original contributions. > Any one reading this message can look at that page and realize that your > claim is another deliberate mis-statement of the facts. Your credibility > continues to decline. "This means that you could purchase an Open Gaming product, and make unlimited copies of the Open Gaming material that product contains and give those copies away free of charge." Direct quote from your web page. Interesting that you can't counter-quote with the highly restrictive FUDGE license, no? >> And would you care to actually substantiate the claim that FUDGE >> contributors can't assert copyright directly from the FUDGE license? > From the FUDGE license, I extracted the following text, which >must< be > included in any distribution of materials derived from FUDGE (I used the > link at www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/frp/fudge/fudge0.html#seci): > "DISCLAIMER > The following materials based on FUDGE, entitled [your title], are > created by [your name] and made available by [name], and are not > authorized or endorsed in any way by Steffan O'Sullivan or any > publisher of other FUDGE materials. Neither Steffan O'Sullivan or > any publisher of other FUDGE material is in any way responsible for > the content of these materials. Original FUDGE materials (c) > Copyright 1992-1995 Steffan O'Sullivan, All Rights Reserved." > The statement "and are not authorized or endorsed by Steffan O'Sullivan" is > the important clause. The words "not authorized" mean that any work > published that uses this DISCLAIMER is acknowledging that the publisher >is > not authorized< to publish such material. An >unauthorized derivative work< > cannot, by statute, be copyright to the creator of the work. Nice twisting of words. Too bad reality doesn't match your assertions. I read the above as "neither Steffan O'Sullivan nor any other publisher of FUDGE material has exerted any authority to permit the publication of FUDGE materials and are thus not in any way, shape nor form responsible for their contents." Where exactly is the restriction? ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8bu0qt$49p$4@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <4VJE4.577$AT2.452@198.235.216.4> <38E54307.3D882388@concentric.net> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 12 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: <3o3G4.759$IX1.414@198.235.216.4> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:10:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954778239 204.101.128.170 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 12:10:39 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 12:10:39 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2753 Bradd W. Szonye wrote in message news:38E54307.3D882388@concentric.net... >> FUDGE being a prime candidate. You know, the "non-open" license that >> someone throws fewer restrictions in your path *AND* doesn't explicitly >> undermine your copyright. > Do you realize that Gnu Public License undermines copyright similarly? Yes. But Stallman and company don't claim that the GPL explictly protects your copyright. Dancey does for OGL. ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> <8c329f$h0p$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8c3dej$6k6$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:17:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954778632 204.101.128.170 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 12:17:12 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 12:17:12 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2762 Dan Bongard wrote in message news:8c3dej$6k6$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net... > The question is "could they turn a profit doing nothing but > sell Linux distributions?". The answer to that question is > "yes". How do you derive this answer? They don't only sell Linux distributions. ###### Message-ID: <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:07:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.14.240 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 954781630 216.154.14.240 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:07:10 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:07:10 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2460 "Michael T. Richter" wrote: > Ryan S. Dancey wrote in message > > As you know Michael, the material at > > www.opengaminfoundation.org/foundation.html does not in any way, shape or > > form say that you cannot assert copyright to your original contributions. > > Any one reading this message can look at that page and realize that your > > claim is another deliberate mis-statement of the facts. Your credibility > > continues to decline. > > "This means that you could purchase an Open Gaming product, and make > unlimited copies of the Open Gaming material that product contains and give > those copies away free of charge." > > Direct quote from your web page. Interesting that you can't counter-quote > with the highly restrictive FUDGE license, no? You do realize that your quote is referring to the OGL rules material only and not the intellectual property that a creator is actually encouraged to keep separate and under his own copyright. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### From: rogers@prefect.com (Rogers) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:10:39 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: <38edd013.30483195@news.aug.com> References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38f2fdf1.28141197@news.aug.com> <38e8c8c1.30340672@news.aug.com> Reply-To: rogers@prefect.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2495 On Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:59:32 GMT, "Michael T. Richter" wrote: >From http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/foundation.html: >"This means that you could purchase an Open Gaming product, and make >unlimited copies of the Open Gaming material that product contains and give >those copies away free of charge." Only if the entire product was open. The OGL also continues numerous provisions for exclusions -- you could publish an open gaming product in which all of the artwork is excluded from the OGL, for instance, which is a pretty easy way to assuage your fear that someone will buy one copy and reproduce it endlessly. ###### From: rogers@prefect.com (Rogers) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:14:46 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 8 Message-ID: <38eed112.30738817@news.aug.com> References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Reply-To: rogers@prefect.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2498 On Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:08:13 GMT, "Michael T. Richter" wrote: >Quote the relevant passage from the FUDGE license, then, shit-for-brains. FUDGE does have restrictions -- you can't publish a for-profit game based on FUDGE without getting permission from the author. You also can't publish FUDGE itself for-profit, because he has sold that right exclusively to Grey Ghost Games. ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 20 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:48:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954784094 204.101.128.170 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:48:14 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:48:14 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2746 Richard Pace wrote in message news:38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com... >> "This means that you could purchase an Open Gaming product, and make >> unlimited copies of the Open Gaming material that product contains and give >> those copies away free of charge." > You do realize that your quote is referring to the OGL rules material only and > not the intellectual property that a creator is actually encouraged to keep > separate and under his own copyright. No, actually. And right now my net.feed is acting up. I'll look at it again later. If this is what is intended, however, then Dancey should shoot whoever wrote the tripe on that page (and on the license copy itself). ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:54:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954784491 204.101.128.170 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:54:51 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:54:51 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2742 Richard Pace wrote in message news:38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com... > You do realize that your quote is referring to the OGL rules material > only and not the intellectual property that a creator is actually > encouraged to keep separate and under his own copyright. OK, I've got my net.feed up and running again. And it is *FAR* from clear that the quoted material means what you say it means. Here's the supporting text: "1. Game Rules and materials that use those rules that can be freely copied, modified and distributed." Note that: the game rules *AND* the materials that use those rules. Adventures, for example, use those rules. By the text provided they can be freely copied, modified and distributed. Later: "This means that you could purchase an Open Gaming product, and make unlimited copies of the Open Gaming material that product contains and give those copies away free of charge. "The Open Gaming License also gives you the right to modify any Open Gaming content to add, subtract, or alter that content as you see fit." This is less clear on the face of it, but in the context of the first quoted portion it is still pretty clear -- and it seems not to support your version of things. (Shall I pull a Justin Bacon and accuse you of either lying or being stupid at this point?:-) ###### Message-ID: <38E91027.FC770062@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 81 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 18:35:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.14.240 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 954786922 216.154.14.240 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 14:35:22 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 14:35:22 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2447 "Michael T. Richter" wrote: > Richard Pace wrote in message > news:38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com... > > You do realize that your quote is referring to the OGL rules material > > only and not the intellectual property that a creator is actually > > encouraged to keep separate and under his own copyright. > > OK, I've got my net.feed up and running again. And it is *FAR* from clear > that the quoted material means what you say it means. Here's the supporting > text: > > "1. Game Rules and materials that use those rules that can be freely copied, > modified and distributed." > > Note that: the game rules *AND* the materials that use those rules. > Adventures, for example, use those rules. By the text provided they can be > freely copied, modified and distributed. Actually, no -- as a result of the discussions on the mailing list the proposed license (as it's in development) is making it more clear and easier to separate your IP from the OGL or D20 material -- my first example suggested to that list was to physically separate the creative material (NPCs, place names, plot details, fiction etc.) from the actual rules information by placing them in separate booklets sold in the old AD&D module format (other workable variations include appending the rules material to the back of the product or in its own clearly identified section within a larger work). The second booklet, containing the stats for the NPCs and monsters would be "open" -- making it important for the separation of open and closed material to be carefully navigated by people new to the license idea -- placing the full name of an NPC in the Open section would make the name usable by all others, using a portion of the name would restrict others from utilizing your TMed material (i.e. Tonas Stonebrook, Earl of Spoon is a major NPC in your product, to keep control of your IP you list his stats in the OGL section under "Earl of Spoon" or "Tonas", though this example is far more relevant to the D20stml than the OGL). > Later: > > "This means that you could purchase an Open Gaming product, and make > unlimited copies of the Open Gaming material that product contains and give > those copies away free of charge. > > "The Open Gaming License also gives you the right to modify any Open Gaming > content to add, subtract, or alter that content as you see fit." > > This is less clear on the face of it, but in the context of the first quoted > portion it is still pretty clear -- and it seems not to support your version > of things. > > (Shall I pull a Justin Bacon and accuse you of either lying or being stupid > at this point?:-) No, but you could read the simplified OGL license to clear up your questions about protections for larger works from: http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/ogl.html 2. The License: This License applies to any Open Game Content that contains a notice indicating that the Open Game Content may only be distributed under the terms of this License. You must affix such a notice to any Open Game Content that you copy, modify or distribute. No terms may be added to or subtracted from this License except as described by the License itself. No other terms or conditions may be applied to any Open Game Content distributed using this License. And specifically: 8. Identification: If you distribute Open Game Content You must clearly indicate which portions of the work that you are distributing are Open Game Content. Hope this helps, Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <38E91027.FC770062@idirect.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 30 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 18:49:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954787756 204.101.128.170 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 14:49:16 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 14:49:16 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2735 Richard Pace wrote in message news:38E91027.FC770062@idirect.com... >> Note that: the game rules *AND* the materials that use those rules. >> Adventures, for example, use those rules. By the text provided >> they can be freely copied, modified and distributed. > Actually, no -- as a result of the discussions on the mailing list > the proposed license (as it's in development) is making it more clear > and easier to separate your IP from the OGL or D20 material [...] When the online, publicly-available text matches this ideal, I'll stop harping on it. The language as it is RIGHT NOW is, to put a charitable spin on it, decidedly unclear on the matter. > No, but you could read the simplified OGL license to clear up your questions > about protections for larger works > from: > http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/ogl.html If that is the *simplified* version, someone should take out your writer and have him/her shot. That "simplified" version is more dense and turgid than my 35-page employment contract! > Hope this helps, It helps some, yes. It lets me know that Dancey is just incompetent rather than evil. ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38eed112.30738817@news.aug.com> Organization: Society for the Retention of Apostrophes in Names X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) Lines: 14 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 18:54:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.82.1.7 X-Trace: ralph.vnet.net 954788088 166.82.1.7 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 14:54:48 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 14:54:48 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!newsfeed.online.be!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!ralph.vnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2554 Rogers wrote: >You also >can't publish FUDGE itself for-profit, because he has sold that right >exclusively to Grey Ghost Games. "Sold" isn't the right word - "granted" would be better. I receive no money from Grey Ghost Games for the right to publish Fudge, nor have I ever. -- Steffan O'Sullivan | "Marge, don't discourage the boy! sos@vnet.net | Weaseling out of things is important to learn. Plymouth, NH, USA | It's what separates us from the animals." www.io.com/~sos | - Homer Simpson ###### From: berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:55:10 +0200 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inc=E1nus?= Lines: 10 Message-ID: <1e8j59e.12n9sop172fmyiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000401081957.08179.00000424@ng-fe1.aol.com> <1e8fhb3.125w8h54vgli2N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000401231953.05989.00000403@ng-cq1.aol.com> <1e8gdnx.oa4vszbpbkmuN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000402153040.27881.00000627@ng-fq1.aol.com> <1e8hgx4.bx0uweehm7ywN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000402203214.08184.00000589@ng-fe1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin087.iskon.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 954788112 29019 195.29.170.226 (3 Apr 2000 18:55:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Apr 2000 18:55:12 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!berislav.lopac Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2781 Justin Bacon wrote: > At this point I've concluded you're either an idiot or a liar. Take your pick. I am an idiot. -- Incanus: incanus@incanus.com Incanus homepage: http://www.incanus.com Incanus Games: http://www.incanus.com/games/ ###### From: berislav.lopac@mcs.hr (Berislav Lopac) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:55:11 +0200 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inc=E1nus?= Lines: 13 Message-ID: <1e8j5y1.p5qz1a12oxkx5N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin087.iskon.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 954788112 29019 195.29.170.226 (3 Apr 2000 18:55:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Apr 2000 18:55:12 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!berislav.lopac Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2778 Michael T. Richter wrote: > (Shall I pull a Justin Bacon and accuse you of either lying or being stupid > at this point?:-) LOL! Thank you, man, you made my day! -- Incanus: incanus@incanus.com Incanus homepage: http://www.incanus.com Incanus Games: http://www.incanus.com/games/ ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:07:54 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com> References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-307.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news.pbi.net.MISMATCH!cyclone.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2616 In article , "Michael T. Richter" wrote: >OK, I've got my net.feed up and running again. And it is *FAR* from clear >that the quoted material means what you say it means. This hearkens back to one of my fundamental concerns about the whole venture: starting in legalese. WotC could have avoided many problems by starting with the public announcement that they'd like to develop a license patterned on open-source software licenses. Presumably there'd have been in-house discussion before the announcement, so that they could lead off with a summary of their thoughts so far. Then there could have been discussion in (reasonably) plain English, hashing out concerns about how to identify who controls which rights over which pieces. THEN it would be time to write the license. As it is, absolutely everyone involved is wasting a lot of time, because we're constantly swapping back and forth from contract language to underlying intent. The writing of contracts should follow agreement on intent, not precede it. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### Message-ID: <38E91978.892E70A3@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <38E91027.FC770062@idirect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:15:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.14.240 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 954789305 216.154.14.240 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:15:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:15:05 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!triton.skycache.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2453 "Michael T. Richter" wrote: > Richard Pace wrote in message > > When the online, publicly-available text matches this ideal, I'll stop > harping on it. The language as it is RIGHT NOW is, to put a charitable spin > on it, decidedly unclear on the matter. As compared to the legalese I usually have to slog through when I deal with IP rights and rights transferrals, the documents as written are clear as crystal to me. > > No, but you could read the simplified OGL license to clear up your > questions > > about protections for larger works > > from: > > http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/ogl.html > > If that is the *simplified* version, someone should take out your writer and > have him/her shot. That "simplified" version is more dense and turgid than > my 35-page employment contract! Not my writer. I'd have to see your employment contract to do a fair comparison. I only have the entertainment contracts I am familiar with to use as a basis for comparison, and this simplified version is a breeze next to some other "simple" twenty page WMFH documents I've signed. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <38E91027.FC770062@idirect.com> <38E91978.892E70A3@idirect.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 22 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:23:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954789812 204.101.128.170 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:23:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:23:32 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2740 Richard Pace wrote in message news:38E91978.892E70A3@idirect.com... >> When the online, publicly-available text matches this ideal, I'll >> stop harping on it. The language as it is RIGHT NOW is, to put a >> charitable spin on it, decidedly unclear on the matter. > As compared to the legalese I usually have to slog through when I > deal with IP rights and rights transferrals, the documents as > written are clear as crystal to me. Since the OGL is supposed to "open" gaming, I would suggest that *ANY* brand of legalese is a Bad Thing in the license. It is very easy to be precise without using legalese. > I'd have to see your employment contract to do a fair comparison. I > only have the entertainment contracts I am familiar with to use as a > basis for comparison, and this simplified version is a breeze next to > some other "simple" twenty page WMFH documents I've signed. And it remains wholly unsuited to the concept of opening anything nonetheless. ###### Message-ID: <38E921F5.520BBB95@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <38E91027.FC770062@idirect.com> <38E91978.892E70A3@idirect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 56 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:51:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.35.17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 954791478 216.154.35.17 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:51:18 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:51:18 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2457 "Michael T. Richter" wrote: > Richard Pace wrote in message > news:38E91978.892E70A3@idirect.com... > >> When the online, publicly-available text matches this ideal, I'll > >> stop harping on it. The language as it is RIGHT NOW is, to put a > >> charitable spin on it, decidedly unclear on the matter. > > > As compared to the legalese I usually have to slog through when I > > deal with IP rights and rights transferrals, the documents as > > written are clear as crystal to me. > > Since the OGL is supposed to "open" gaming, I would suggest that *ANY* brand > of legalese is a Bad Thing in the license. It is very easy to be precise > without using legalese. I didn't say it contained legalese I compared it to the legal language I usually encounter. While it's not monosyllabic in sentences of less than six words it's precise enough for my purposes if I choose to utilize either license. However, given the choice of all encompassing legalese or potentially loop holed precise language I'd choose the former when the possibility exists that someone may inadvertently lose IP to the license. That being said, it should now be clear that the OGL does not permit usage or reproduction of non-OGL material. > > I'd have to see your employment contract to do a fair comparison. I > > only have the entertainment contracts I am familiar with to use as a > > basis for comparison, and this simplified version is a breeze next to > > some other "simple" twenty page WMFH documents I've signed. > > And it remains wholly unsuited to the concept of opening anything > nonetheless. Well, there's a circular discussion here. I''ve read several Open document since this whole project was announced, and while it's not matching every definition of Open, it's is similar to enough of them (as previously posted here and other boards ) that the wise conclusion is that the OGL is merely wholly unsuited to your concept of opening anything. After all, informed opinions may differ. It is, however, open enough for the purposes that I and several other potential users would (and as far as I can tell by messages here and on the OGL mailing list) require. Which is beside the point of why I involved myself in this thread at this point; I only intended to relieve you of the misconception that the OGL allowed free access to non-OGL material for reproduction by other parties. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <38E91027.FC770062@idirect.com> <38E91978.892E70A3@idirect.com> <38E921F5.520BBB95@idirect.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:55:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954791730 204.101.128.170 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:55:30 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:55:30 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!colt.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2738 Richard Pace wrote in message news:38E921F5.520BBB95@idirect.com... > [...] I only intended to relieve you of the misconception that the OGL > allowed free access to non-OGL material for reproduction by other parties. This you have accomplished, at any rate. ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 25 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 20:01:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954792075 204.101.128.170 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:01:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:01:15 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2739 Bruce Baugh wrote in message news:8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com... > This hearkens back to one of my fundamental concerns about the > whole venture: starting in legalese. The language they have there has waaaaaay too much room for creative misinterpretation on WotC/Hasbro's part. Given that they *ARE* the Microsoft of the RPG industry, they should be much more careful of putting forth text that looks like they're trying to subvert the IP of their potential competitors. > WotC could have avoided many problems by starting with the public > announcement that they'd like to develop a license patterned on > open-source software licenses. Presumably there'd have been in-house > discussion before the announcement, so that they could lead off with a > summary of their thoughts so far. Then there could have been discussion > in (reasonably) plain English, hashing out concerns about how to > identify who controls which rights over which pieces. WotC as a whole should really have paid far more attention to the prattlings of their online representative. Dancey's unwarranted attacks on FUDGE (not to mention the deliberate twisting of the clear intent of FUDGE's own license language) doesn't exactly make me feel warm and fuzzy as to WotC's intentions with the OGL. ###### Message-ID: <38E928C3.871E4833@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 20:20:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.3.158 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 954793220 216.154.3.158 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:20:20 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:20:20 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2452 "Michael T. Richter" wrote: > > Dancey's unwarranted attacks on FUDGE You mean his responses to the comparison of the OGL and FUDGE's agreement? When he starts calling people a shit-for-brains then I'll consider those specific messages attacks, as it is, he's taking time out of his schedule to respond to questions and defend against attacks upon his pet projects; the OGL and D20. Mis characterizing what he's written and why he's written it does your argument little good in this matter. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com> <38E928C3.871E4833@idirect.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 20:47:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954794858 204.101.128.170 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:47:38 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:47:38 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2744 Richard Pace wrote in message news:38E928C3.871E4833@idirect.com... >> Dancey's unwarranted attacks on FUDGE > You mean his responses to the comparison of the OGL and FUDGE's agreement? No. I mean the one where he quotes the FUDGE license out of context and says "see, Steffan's explicitly saying that any use of FUDGE is unlicensed, and thus can be stolen". (His precise expression of this horseshit was : "The words 'not authorised mean that any work published that uses this DISCLAIMER is acknowledging that the publisher >is not authorised< to publish such material. An >unauthorised derivative work< cannot, by statute, be copyright to the creator of the work.") ###### Message-ID: <38E907AC.4003DA8F@fudgerpg.com> From: Ann Dupuis Reply-To: ghostgames@fudgerpg.com Organization: Grey Ghost Press, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com> <38E928C3.871E4833@idirect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 21:02:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.32.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 954795731 24.147.32.236 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:02:11 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:02:11 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2493 Richard Pace wrote: > > "Michael T. Richter" wrote: > > > > > Dancey's unwarranted attacks on FUDGE > > You mean his responses to the comparison of the OGL and FUDGE's agreement? I must pipe in, Ryan has been nothing but polite to me, even when we've argued face to face over the "openness" of Fudge. :-) His "attacks" are in no way personal, or directed at the Fudge game system itself. In fact, this whole discussion has been very helpful, encouraging Steffan and me to look at the Fudge license pretty closely to make any desirable changes in time for the Fudge Expanded Edition printing.... -- Best regards, Ann Dupuis (ghostgames@fudgerpg.com) Grey Ghost Press, Inc. (http://www.fudgerpg.com) "Take that, you blasted game!" - Fourth most common use of the Computer Control Cybernetic Enhancement. (From the "Gatecrasher" roleplaying game; http://www.fudgerpg.com/gtcrasher) ###### Message-ID: <38E907E0.85190BC2@fudgerpg.com> From: Ann Dupuis Reply-To: ghostgames@fudgerpg.com Organization: Grey Ghost Press, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38eed112.30738817@news.aug.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 21:03:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.32.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 954795783 24.147.32.236 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:03:03 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:03:03 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2478 Rogers wrote: > > On Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:08:13 GMT, "Michael T. Richter" > wrote: > >Quote the relevant passage from the FUDGE license, then, shit-for-brains. > > FUDGE does have restrictions -- you can't publish a for-profit game > based on FUDGE without getting permission from the author. You also > can't publish FUDGE itself for-profit, because he has sold that right > exclusively to Grey Ghost Games. "granted" that right exclusively. No "sale" of rights was involved. -- Best regards, Ann Dupuis (ghostgames@fudgerpg.com) Grey Ghost Press, Inc. (http://www.fudgerpg.com) "Take that, you blasted game!" - Fourth most common use of the Computer Control Cybernetic Enhancement. (From the "Gatecrasher" roleplaying game; http://www.fudgerpg.com/gtcrasher) ###### From: rogers@prefect.com (Rogers) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:40:39 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: <38ed1d91.50324090@news.aug.com> References: <38eed112.30738817@news.aug.com> Reply-To: rogers@prefect.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2492 On Mon, 03 Apr 2000 18:54:48 GMT, sos@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan) wrote: >Rogers wrote: >>You also >>can't publish FUDGE itself for-profit, because he has sold that right >>exclusively to Grey Ghost Games. >"Sold" isn't the right word - "granted" would be better. I receive no >money from Grey Ghost Games for the right to publish Fudge, nor have I >ever. Sorry ... poor choice of words on my part. Regardless of whether FUDGE fits the definition of open gaming or not, all this discussion has made me eager to find a copy. ###### Sender: Nathan Keir Edel From: edel@best.NOSPAM.com (Nate Edel) Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000401081957.08179.00000424@ng-fe1.aol.com> <1e8fhb3.125w8h54vgli2N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000401231953.05989.00000403@ng-cq1.aol.com> <1e8gdnx.oa4vszbpbkmuN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000402153040.27881.00000627@ng-fq1.aol.com> <1e8hgx4.bx0uweehm7ywN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000402203214.08184.00000589@ng-fe1.aol.com> <1e8j59e.12n9sop172fmyiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> Organization: disorganized studies of de world. X-Notice: Remove NO_SPAM from return address to reply via email. x-no-archive: yes User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.8-STABLE (i386)) Date: 03 Apr 2000 23:03:44 GMT Lines: 4 Message-ID: <38e92350$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 954803024 226 edel@206.184.139.134 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2527 Berislav Lopac wrote: % I am an idiot. Which makes you, according to Socrates, a wise man. ###### Message-ID: <38E951F6.76A5C742@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com> <38E928C3.871E4833@idirect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 23:16:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.14.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 954803791 216.154.14.147 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:16:31 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:16:31 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2455 "Michael T. Richter" wrote: > Richard Pace wrote in message > news:38E928C3.871E4833@idirect.com... > >> Dancey's unwarranted attacks on FUDGE > > > You mean his responses to the comparison of the OGL and FUDGE's agreement? > > No. I mean the one where he quotes the FUDGE license out of context and > says "see, Steffan's explicitly saying that any use of FUDGE is unlicensed, > and thus can be stolen". (His precise expression of this horseshit was : > "The words 'not authorised mean that any work published that uses this > DISCLAIMER is acknowledging that the publisher >is not authorised< to > publish such material. An >unauthorised derivative work< cannot, by > statute, be copyright to the creator of the work.") Hardly an attack -- especially when compared to the largely uninformed (and perhaps wilfully so) invective hurled Dancey's way since this project was announced. Your paraphrasing of his precise expression leaves much to be desired. He IS accurately pointing out that the language of the FUDGE agreement can be construed that way and, as such, not held under the same copyright protection as authorized work. Perhaps Dancey is misinterpreting the language of the FUDGE agreement. Deliberately? I see no reason to assume this. And even if so, I'm sure that he'd likely apologize to the parties involved for any damage caused by doing so when it's cleared up -- he has been very fair and polite even while the discussion turned to insults. The main difference here seems that FUDGE has a track record of not abusing the worst possible interpretation of this language of this and very few seem to be allowing that WotC may also abstain from abusing theoretically vague language in its pending OGL and D20stml documents. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### From: Jerry Stratton Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Organization: Negative Space References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com> <38E928C3.871E4833@idirect.com> <38E951F6.76A5C742@idirect.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-Face: $!..L~)V627k~Fp@ojChOSX"5f@Jv=Wi;2I?!oAQgdUyNO8cFFdEefO#1jn#) v!PG?:'3/TZt/-*.7nNOij7TX9qL0j*mqZ^7qqOov0gG=Uyd9?f4:~,ce9 Message-ID: Lines: 27 Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 00:51:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.130.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 954809495 24.0.130.131 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:51:35 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:51:35 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2463 In article <38E951F6.76A5C742@idirect.com>, Richard Pace wrote: >Perhaps Dancey is misinterpreting the language of the FUDGE agreement. >Deliberately? I see no reason to assume this. And even if so, I'm >sure that he'd likely apologize to the parties involved for any damage >caused by doing so when it's cleared up -- he has been very fair and >polite even while the discussion turned to insults. > >The main difference here seems that FUDGE has a track record of not >abusing the worst possible interpretation of this language of this and >very few seem to be allowing that WotC may also abstain from abusing >theoretically vague language in its pending OGL and D20stml documents. No. The 'language' used, and the term "not authorized by" has a very specific meaning in trademark which Dancey appears to not understand at all. Not surprising since he doesn't appear to understand much else about trademark or copyright. I agree that it probably wasn't a deliberate misinterpretation. He just doesn't know any better. By the way, Ryan, if you're reading this, I just received a payment for "The Empty Well" (revision 1), if you think that makes a difference (it doesn't). Jerry http://www.hoboes.com/jerry/ ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 02:14:14 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8cbj5m$14s_002@enews.newsguy.com> References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-510.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2620 In article , "Michael T. Richter" wrote: >WotC as a whole should really have paid far more attention to the prattlings >of their online representative. Dancey's unwarranted attacks on FUDGE (not >to mention the deliberate twisting of the clear intent of FUDGE's own >license language) doesn't exactly make me feel warm and fuzzy as to WotC's >intentions with the OGL. No argument there. I was already put off by Peter Adkison's sweeping declarations, but Ryan Dancey is digging the pit deeper all the time. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 02:18:14 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8cbjd6$14s_004@enews.newsguy.com> References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com> <38E928C3.871E4833@idirect.com> <38E951F6.76A5C742@idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-549.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2619 In article <38E951F6.76A5C742@idirect.com>, Richard Pace wrote: >Hardly an attack -- especially when compared to the largely uninformed (and >perhaps wilfully so) invective hurled Dancey's way since this project was >announced. At the risk of sounding snobbish: tough for him. Part of speaking for a business - even the way a bunch of us do as freelancers who happen to be working on particular projects, let alone someone who's actually in the employ of the business - is keeping cooler than the critics. This isn't _news_, and Ryan's getting off easier than (say) Richard Dansky and the people accusing him of Holocaust revisionism and abetting Nazis, a few years back. The fact that someone else is being a toad is not license for the next one along to be a toad. On the other hand, it _is_ the other person's responsibility to continue to be clear and direct, at least if the company is interested in people understanding its intent. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### From: incanus@incanus.com (Incanus) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:17:25 +0200 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inc=E1nus?= Games Lines: 13 Message-ID: <1e8k47b.rfw0pxf4xsjmN%incanus@incanus.com> References: <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38effb2d.27433393@news.aug.com> <8c2h5s01k14@news2.newsguy.com> <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000401081957.08179.00000424@ng-fe1.aol.com> <1e8fhb3.125w8h54vgli2N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000401231953.05989.00000403@ng-cq1.aol.com> <1e8gdnx.oa4vszbpbkmuN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000402153040.27881.00000627@ng-fq1.aol.com> <1e8hgx4.bx0uweehm7ywN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000402203214.08184.00000589@ng-fe1.aol.com> <1e8j59e.12n9sop172fmyiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38e92350$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin097.iskon.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 954832646 24829 195.29.170.87 (4 Apr 2000 07:17:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Apr 2000 07:17:26 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feeder.qis.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!incanus Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2764 Nate Edel wrote: > Berislav Lopac wrote: > % I am an idiot. > > Which makes you, according to Socrates, a wise man. I don't usually use witty .sigs, but this one just might apply. -- Incanus: incanus@incanus.com Incanus homepage: http://www.incanus.com Incanus Games: http://www.incanus.com/games/ ###### From: "Robin Lim" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <20000318225318.03228.00002179@ng-fu1.aol.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8bt5ch011ea@news2.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 11:27:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.68.57.152 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.on.home.com 954847662 24.68.57.152 (Tue, 04 Apr 2000 04:27:42 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 04:27:42 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2693 Bryant Durrell wrote in message news:8bt5ch011ea@news2.newsguy.com... > *chortle* Always risky to cite an authority when the person you're > arguing with can walk down the hall and talk to that authority... > > Hey, Ryan, I know you're a busy man, but now I'm wondering what he'd > say about using D20 for Over the Edge. Sure. I can post the conversion right now. You get to pick four skills, 1 at 20, 1 at 15, and 2 at 10. When you want to do something, roll 1d20+skill in question, and if your GM rolls high enough, you succeed. Rob :) ###### From: "Robin Lim" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8bte6i01jv5@news1.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: <7AkG4.19050$m5.288899@news1.rdc2.on.home.com> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 11:44:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.68.57.152 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.on.home.com 954848643 24.68.57.152 (Tue, 04 Apr 2000 04:44:03 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 04:44:03 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2685 Bryant Durrell wrote in message news:8bte6i01jv5@news1.newsguy.com... > In article , > Michael T. Richter wrote: > >Ryan S. Dancey wrote in message > >news:se3r53n2ead6@corp.supernews.com... > >>> Ars Magica Played under d20 rules. Acceptable? Unacceptable? > > > >> According to the designer of that game, Johnathan Tweet, > > > >...who currently works for WotC/Hasbro/whatever and thus cannot necessarily > >be trusted to freely speak his mind on the subject... > > That's really insulting, Michael. I know Jonathan Tweet. He would not > lie. If he didn't think Ars would work with D20 rules, he might refrain > from comment, but he wouldn't lie. Actually, Mr. Tweet seemed to suggest in his interview on the D&D 3E site that Ars Magica grew out of his original D&D house rules. Perhaps he'll be so kind as to give us an open-ended magic system in the future :) Rob ###### From: "Robin Lim" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 11:48:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.68.57.152 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.on.home.com 954848920 24.68.57.152 (Tue, 04 Apr 2000 04:48:40 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 04:48:40 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2691 Michael T. Richter wrote in message news:JuuE4.102$AT2.39@198.235.216.4... > > What points were those? That Steffan wants you to sign a license that says > he doesn't risk legal hassles because you do a "Disney Characters Hot Sex > RPG" game? That doesn't close anything except gratuitous lawsuits. Yes, but I could do that under the terms of the OGL. Rob ###### From: "Robin Lim" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8bus7v$tr9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20000330134834.18404.00000072@ng-co1.aol.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 11:57:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.68.57.152 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.on.home.com 954849443 24.68.57.152 (Tue, 04 Apr 2000 04:57:23 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 04:57:23 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2686 Justin Bacon wrote in message news:20000330134834.18404.00000072@ng-co1.aol.com... > SD Anderson wrote: > > The other problem with this "most thoroughly tested" rhetoric (which I've > encountered before in debates concerning AD&D2) is that "tested", in the sense > its being used here, usually means that something is tested and then, if a > problem arises, it is *fixed*. > > In the case of AD&D, however, it has only been "most thoroughly tested" in the > sense that millions of people play it... millions of people who have "fixed" it > with home rules that have never seen the light of day in a TSR product. > > To bring it back aroudn: D&D3 seems to be making a multitude of choices which > I've *never* seen in a set of homerules. This isn't a bad thing, but (as you > say) claiming that it's "the most thoroughly tested" system is just silly. Well, they claim to have 600 playtesters, which is a very substantial number. Rob ###### Reply-To: "Michael T. Richter" From: "Michael T. Richter" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc References: <8b10qe$oaj$5@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 20 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 13:39:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.128.170 X-Trace: 198.235.216.4 954855580 204.101.128.170 (Tue, 04 Apr 2000 09:39:40 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 09:39:40 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2767 Robin Lim wrote in message news:sEkG4.19051$m5.289013@news1.rdc2.on.home.com... >> What points were those? That Steffan wants you to sign a license >> that says he doesn't risk legal hassles because you do a "Disney >> Characters Hot Sex RPG" game? That doesn't close anything except >> gratuitous lawsuits. > Yes, but I could do that under the terms of the OGL. No you can't: "5. Representation of Authority to Contribute: "If You are contributing original material as Open Game Content, You represent that Your Contributions are Your original creation and/or You have sufficient rights to grant the rights conveyed by this License." Basically you have the same clause in the OGL. ###### From: Jerry Stratton Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Organization: Negative Space References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com> <38E928C3.871E4833@idirect.com> <38E951F6.76A5C742@idirect.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-Face: $!..L~)V627k~Fp@ojChOSX"5f@Jv=Wi;2I?!oAQgdUyNO8cFFdEefO#1jn#) v!PG?:'3/TZt/-*.7nNOij7TX9qL0j*mqZ^7qqOov0gG=Uyd9?f4:~,ce9 Message-ID: Lines: 86 Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 15:33:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.130.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 954862396 24.0.130.131 (Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:33:16 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:33:16 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2479 In article , Jerry Stratton wrote: By the way, Ryan, if you're reading this, I just received a payment for "The Empty Well" (revision 1), if you think that makes a difference (it doesn't). Well, Ryan has decided to jump on the Futurama bandwagon and call "The Empty Well" a parody. Hell, he's probably almost right (I'd say it's more of a satire, but I'm not a lawyer and could be wrong about that.) Even stopped clocks... Here is a fully commercial, non-funny, non-satirical version of "The Empty Well". Guess what, Ryan? This one is also perfectly legal. The Empty Well (r.3) by Jerry Stratton This adventure may be used with Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, 1st edition, and probably others as well. Neither Jerry Stratton nor "The Empty Well" are affiliated with the makers of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. The current trademark holder for Advanced Dungeons and Dragons is Wizards of the Coast, and they have nothing to do with this. "The Empty Well" (r.3) is Copyright 2000 Jerry Stratton, and is distributed as shareware. Please send $0.50 if you use this adventure. Map of the Wilderness surrounding the well ------- | | |barn | | | ------- -- < > <-- well -- Map Key: Barn: The barn holds only one minotaur. The minotaur will attack on sight. Minotaur: AC 6, MV 12, HD: 6+3, hp 27, A 2, D: 2-8/1-4, Align: CE. Languages: Minotaur, the common tongue. The minotaur has no treasure. Well: The well is empty. In the sense that there is no more water in the well. At the bottom of the well is a city of Piraguatoi. Piraguatoi are tiny faerie that love to cause mischief. Anyone disturbing the well is likely to release a swarm of 3 to 60 of these flying trouble-makers, and there is a 25% chance that the swarm will follow that character for the rest of their natural born life. Piraguatoi information: Frequency: Rare. No. Appearing: 1,000-10,000 Armor Class: -2 Move: 2/30 Hit Dice: 1/4 (1 hp) % In Lair: 100% (unless attached to an individual) Treasure Type: J, S No. of Attacks: 1 Damage/Attack: 0 Special Attacks: On a successful hit by a Piraguatoi, characters must save vs. Spells or dance hysterically for 1-10 rounds. Special Defenses: Nil Magic Resistance: 50% Intelligence: Average Alignment: Chaotic Neutral Size: T Psionic Ability: Nil Attack/Defense Modes: Nil If you are using one of Wizard of the Coast's/TSR's official worlds, this adventure might fit best somewhere in the lands of Glantri, the Bone March, or just outside of the city of Waterdeep. Jerry http://www.hoboes.com/jerry/ ###### From: bjm10@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 12:06:01 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 18 Sender: verified_for_usenet@cornell.edu (bjm10 on potato.cit.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com> <38E928C3.871E4833@idirect.com> <38E951F6.76A5C742@idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.cit.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 954864360 13877 132.236.156.18 (4 Apr 2000 16:06:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Apr 2000 16:06:00 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!feeder.qis.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!bjm10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2712 In article <38E951F6.76A5C742@idirect.com>, Richard Pace wrote: > The main difference here seems that FUDGE has a track record of not abusing the > worst possible interpretation of this language of this and very few seem to be > allowing that WotC may also abstain from abusing theoretically vague language in > its pending OGL and D20stml documents. Like it or not, WoTC is the heir to TSR. Anything they do will be evaluated in this light. I would presume they are bright enough to realize this. -- "Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are dealing with our mental health crisis today." ###### Message-ID: <38EA5CC0.CB19CA8E@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com> <38E928C3.871E4833@idirect.com> <38E951F6.76A5C742@idirect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 18:14:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.10.176 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 954872068 216.154.10.176 (Tue, 04 Apr 2000 14:14:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 14:14:28 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2797 "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote: > In article <38E951F6.76A5C742@idirect.com>, Richard Pace > wrote: > > > The main difference here seems that FUDGE has a track record of not > abusing the > > worst possible interpretation of this language of this and very few seem to be > > allowing that WotC may also abstain from abusing theoretically vague > language in > > its pending OGL and D20stml documents. > > Like it or not, WoTC is the heir to TSR. Anything they do will be > evaluated in this light. I would presume they are bright enough to > realize this. Which I think has been the prime motive behind much of what they've been doing lately. I get the feeling the new D&D handlers are trying to do what they would have liked when they were players while still making money and keeping their lawyers' ulcers under control. Much of the communication has been pretty unclear, but none of it shows the disdain that TSR under wassirname. Do I think WotC are angels? Nope -- I followed their Pokemon nightmare too closely to consider that. Do I think Ryan Dancey believes he's doing a good thing here? Yup. Do I believe he's doing a good thing here? Yup. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### From: bruce-baugh@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 01:02:44 GMT Organization: Zenrei Bunraku Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8ce3bk$10g_002@enews.newsguy.com> References: <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8cs05.8ojvso163oohsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38e7c83d.30207987@news.aug.com> <38f62043.96274050@news.aug.com> <8c9ekv$360_004@enews.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-865.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mycroft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2870 In article , neelk@alum.mit.edu wrote: >writing a free game based on the OGL terms. There's a lot of >boring-to-me gruntwork in building a usable system, and I'd rather >tweak an existing one than write one of my own. Can't argue with that. I think that more people can write good, interesting settings than good, useful mechanics. -- Bruce Baugh / bruce-baugh@sff.net http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current. "Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns, that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein ###### From: "pblock" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:31:25 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <8b4gc7$osl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8btag7$31s_010@enews.newsguy.com> <38E23D19.5269@wizvax.net> <1e8at9c.1eeoeyq1q973v4N%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8bnvg.ti8g717ka14wN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <1e8cs05.8ojvso163oohsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38e7c83d.30207987@news.aug.com> <38f62043.96274050@news.aug.com> <8c9ekv$360_004@enews.newsguy.com> <8ce3bk$10g_002@enews.newsguy.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2880 Bruce Baugh wrote ... > In article , neelk@alum.mit.edu wrote: > > >writing a free game based on the OGL terms. There's a lot of > >boring-to-me gruntwork in building a usable system, and I'd rather > >tweak an existing one than write one of my own. > > Can't argue with that. I think that more people can write good, > interesting settings than good, useful mechanics. Or can improve on existing game rather than coming up with a brand new one from scratch. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 5 Apr 2000 14:40:50 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8cfj9i$g4u$2@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mhalb.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954945650 16542 149.174.240.237 (5 Apr 2000 14:40:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Apr 2000 14:40:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2854 Michael T. Richter quoted Ryan Dancy to produce without any open gaming license the following work, which is being copied without his permission by myself: >> The statement "and are not authorized or endorsed by Steffan >> O'Sullivan" is the important clause. The words "not >> authorized" mean that any work published that uses this >> DISCLAIMER is acknowledging that the publisher is not >> authorized< to publish such material. An >unauthorized >> derivative work< cannot, by statute, be copyright to the >> creator of the work. > Nice twisting of words. Too bad reality doesn't match your > assertions. Unless you understand where he's coming from. Put yourself in TSR think mode and translate 'authorized publication' to "OFFICIAL" as TSR uses the term. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 5 Apr 2000 14:43:47 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8cfjf3$g4u$3@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhalb.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954945827 16542 149.174.240.237 (5 Apr 2000 14:43:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Apr 2000 14:43:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2853 Richard Pace wrote: >> "This means that you could purchase an Open Gaming product, and >> make unlimited copies of the Open Gaming material that product >> contains and give those copies away free of charge." >> Direct quote from your web page. Interesting that you can't >> counter-quote with the highly restrictive FUDGE license, no? > You do realize that your quote is referring to the OGL rules > material only and not the intellectual property that a creator > is actually encouraged to keep separate and under his own > copyright. That is NOT clearly specified in the quoted section of the OGL dealing with copying of materials however. The FUDGE license doesn't have this problem. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 5 Apr 2000 14:47:38 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 10 Message-ID: <8cfjma$g4u$4@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <38E91027.FC770062@idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhalb.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com 954946058 16542 149.174.240.237 (5 Apr 2000 14:47:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Apr 2000 14:47:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2859 Richard Pace wrote: > Actually, no -- as a result of the discussions on the mailing > list the proposed license (as it's in development) is making it > more clear and easier to separate your IP from the OGL or D20 > material Right NOW, there is no such protection written in the OGL. When, or rather IF such language is incorporated into the license, the matter may be settled favorablly for WotC. Currently the facts side with the OGL's critics regardiing IP rights. ###### Message-ID: <38EB883A.409EA1CE@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8cfjf3$g4u$3@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 15:32:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.5.7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 954948733 216.154.5.7 (Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:32:13 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:32:13 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2794 SD Anderson wrote: > Richard Pace wrote: > >> "This means that you could purchase an Open Gaming product, and > >> make unlimited copies of the Open Gaming material that product > >> contains and give those copies away free of charge." > >> Direct quote from your web page. Interesting that you can't > >> counter-quote with the highly restrictive FUDGE license, no? > > > You do realize that your quote is referring to the OGL rules > > material only and not the intellectual property that a creator > > is actually encouraged to keep separate and under his own > > copyright. > > That is NOT clearly specified in the quoted section of the OGL > dealing with copying of materials however. The FUDGE license > doesn't have this problem. Except he wasn't quoting the OGL, he was quoting from a page about the OGL. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 20:48:42 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 50 Message-ID: <8cg8r4$nss$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com> <38E928C3.871E4833@idirect.com> <38E951F6.76A5C742@idirect.com> <38EA5CC0.CB19CA8E@idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.10.87 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Apr 05 20:48:42 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x25.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.192.10.87 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsd_anderson Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2972 In article <38EA5CC0.CB19CA8E@idirect.com>, Richard Pace wrote: > "Bryan J. Maloney" wrote: > > > In article <38E951F6.76A5C742@idirect.com>, Richard Pace > > wrote: > > > > > The main difference here seems that FUDGE has a track record of not > > abusing the > > > worst possible interpretation of this language of this and very few seem to be > > > allowing that WotC may also abstain from abusing theoretically vague > > language in > > > its pending OGL and D20stml documents. > > > > Like it or not, WoTC is the heir to TSR. Anything they do will be > > evaluated in this light. I would presume they are bright enough to > > realize this. > > Which I think has been the prime motive behind much of what they've been doing > lately. I get the feeling the new D&D handlers are trying to do what they would > have liked when they were players while still making money and keeping their > lawyers' ulcers under control. Much of the communication has been pretty unclear, > but none of it shows the disdain that TSR under wassirname. > > Do I think WotC are angels? Nope -- I followed their Pokemon nightmare too closely > to consider that. Do I think Ryan Dancey believes he's doing a good thing here? > Yup. > > Do I believe he's doing a good thing here? Yup. One of his stated goals is to put all or most professionally made RPGs under the D20 system, whether the product gets to use the D20 trademark or not. That pretty much DOES mean current existing alternate game systems have to cease being published. Good thing? Not as I define good things. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 20:53:36 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <8cg94a$o0t$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8cfjf3$g4u$3@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <38EB883A.409EA1CE@idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.10.87 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Apr 05 20:53:36 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x25.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.192.10.87 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsd_anderson Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed.enteract.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2961 In article <38EB883A.409EA1CE@idirect.com>, Richard Pace wrote: > SD Anderson wrote: > > > Richard Pace wrote: > > >> "This means that you could purchase an Open Gaming product, and > > >> make unlimited copies of the Open Gaming material that product > > >> contains and give those copies away free of charge." > > >> Direct quote from your web page. Interesting that you can't > > >> counter-quote with the highly restrictive FUDGE license, no? > > > > > You do realize that your quote is referring to the OGL rules > > > material only and not the intellectual property that a creator > > > is actually encouraged to keep separate and under his own > > > copyright. > > > > That is NOT clearly specified in the quoted section of the OGL > > dealing with copying of materials however. The FUDGE license > > doesn't have this problem. > > Except he wasn't quoting the OGL, he was quoting from a page about the > OGL. Relatively irrelevant detail. The page clearly is stating the viewpoint of the people promoting the OGL and what they feel it is. Since these people also have the deepest pockets regarding lawyers fees, there is a very good chance that what they say the license says will be what smaller, less well represented companies end up agreeing it says. Here's an easy one for you. Quote the specific material in the license that protects IP rights. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... From: knight37@gamespotmail.com (Knight37) References: <1e8egpd.19l57fn1g44whiN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <20000401081957.08179.00000424@ng-fe1.aol.com> Message-ID: <8F0DA6B22knight37gamespotmail@209.30.0.14> User-Agent: Xnews/Y2K-SE Lines: 22 Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:54:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.246.86.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@flash.net X-Trace: news.flash.net 954971683 208.246.86.5 (Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:54:43 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:54:43 CDT Organization: FlashNet Communications, http://www.flash.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp.flash.net!news.flash.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3039 shaw@caprica.com (Wayne Shaw) wrote: >>>While I continue to have difficulty believing that the OGL is >>>going to do anything of much significance, I've got to disagree >>>with this. Using a system you licensed from someone else doesn't >>>make you look "cheap" or "unprofessional". What makes you look >>>cheap and unprofessional is using huge margins, wasted white >>>space, and charging $60 for the core rules of your game while not >>>including ship building rules. They already *did* that. >> >>If you're talking about Alternity, Justin, that's nonsense... > >Alright, so I'm an idiot and had forgotten what example game the >first poster had used that Justin was responding to... All I can say is there's a lot of idiocy going on in this thread. ;P But it's pretty entertaining reading! Knight37 ###### From: Scott Barrie Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 20:42:49 -0400 Organization: The University of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Canada Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com> <38E928C3.871E4833@idirect.com> <38E951F6.76A5C742@idirect.com> <38EA5CC0.CB19CA8E@idirect.com> <8cg8r4$nss$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: trollsden.physics.uwo.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: panther.uwo.ca 954981809 21244 129.100.24.149 (6 Apr 2000 00:43:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@julian.uwo.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Apr 2000 00:43:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3058 On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 20:48:42 GMT, SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote: >In article <38EA5CC0.CB19CA8E@idirect.com>, > Richard Pace wrote: >> >> Do I think Ryan Dancey believes he's doing a good thing here? >> Yup. >> >> Do I believe he's doing a good thing here? Yup. > > One of his stated goals is to put all or most professionally made >RPGs under the D20 system, whether the product gets to use the D20 >trademark or not. > > That pretty much DOES mean current existing alternate game systems >have to cease being published. No it doesn't, if his belief is that OGL will foster the creation of many new D20 RPGs. If the number of RPGs triple in the next five years due to new D20 games, his goal will be achieved. >Good thing? Not as I define good >things. Forcing other systems to disappear - bad thing Allowing new RPGs to be developed cheaply under OGL instead of new systems - good thing (it gives developers a choice, they don't have to use D20) Scott B. Barrie Physics Grad Student Quest Free RPG -AD&D flavour, but without the annoying parts. And I didn't write it http://trollsden.physics.uwo.ca/quest.htm ###### From: "Ryan S. Dancey" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:29:11 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8cfjf3$g4u$3@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <38EB883A.409EA1CE@idirect.com> <8cg94a$o0t$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3032 SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote in message > Here's an easy one for you. Quote the specific material in the > license that protects IP rights. "Section 6. Copyrights. You must update the COPYRIGHT NOTICE portion of this License to include the exact text of the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any Open Game Content You are copying, modifying or distributing, and You must add the title, the copyright date, and the copyright holder's name to the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any original Open Game Content you distribute." This clause requires the publisher to assert copyright ownership on behalf of the copyright owner for any new material, and maintain the copyright notice for any material used in a derivative work. (Although now that I look at it, the sentence should probably read: "You must add the title, the word "Copyright", the copyright date, and the copyright holder's name..." just to be crystal clear.) and "Section 8. Identification 8. Identification: If you distribute Open Game Content You must clearly indicate which portions of the work that you are distributing are Open Game Content." This clause says that it is up to you to indicate what is and is not Open Game Content. If you fail to indicate that something is Open Game Content and it is (or is derived from Open Game Content), the copyright holders of that material could sue you for infringement. Any content in a work you publish that is not Open Game Content is covered by whatever copyright or trademark you choose to assert. Ryan ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 06 Apr 2000 06:01:52 GMT References: <38e92350$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000406020152.07814.00001215@ng-fg1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3010 Nathan Keir Edel wrote: >Berislav Lopac wrote: >% I am an idiot. > >Which makes you, according to Socrates, a wise man. Socrates was discussing ignorance (lack of knowledge), not idiocy (lack of brain power). Wisdom is knowing how little you know, not how low your IQ is. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 06 Apr 2000 06:05:41 GMT References: <38EA5CC0.CB19CA8E@idirect.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000406020541.07814.00001216@ng-fg1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3012 Richard Dansky wrote: >Do I think WotC are angels? Nope -- I followed their Pokemon nightmare too closely >to consider that. Do I think Ryan Dancey believes he's doing a good thing here? >Yup. > >Do I believe he's doing a good thing here? Yup. Question for you: Do you believe that Dancey's *goal* is a good one? I answer both of your questions "yes" as well, but I answer "no" to mine. I think that what Dancey is doing is a good idea overall (although still flawed in some respects), but I think so for very different reasons than Dancey. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 06 Apr 2000 06:07:23 GMT References: <8F0DA6B22knight37gamespotmail@209.30.0.14> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000406020723.07814.00001217@ng-fg1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3013 Knight37 wrote: >>Alright, so I'm an idiot and had forgotten what example game the >>first poster had used that Justin was responding to... > >All I can say is there's a lot of idiocy going on in this thread. ;P > >But it's pretty entertaining reading! What we need is a rec.games.frp.idiocy NG. ;) Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 6 Apr 2000 07:23:18 GMT Organization: Semiotic Marines, Altoid Squad Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8che1604ie@news1.newsguy.com> References: <38EA5CC0.CB19CA8E@idirect.com> <20000406020541.07814.00001216@ng-fg1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-801.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: durrell@innocence.com (Bryant Durrell) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2990 In article <20000406020541.07814.00001216@ng-fg1.aol.com>, Justin Bacon wrote: >Richard Dansky wrote: Ack. Don't do that, Justin. Richard /Pace/ wrote. >>Do I think WotC are angels? Nope -- I followed their Pokemon nightmare too >closely >>to consider that. Do I think Ryan Dancey believes he's doing a good thing >here? >>Yup. >> >>Do I believe he's doing a good thing here? Yup. > >Question for you: Do you believe that Dancey's *goal* is a good one? > >I answer both of your questions "yes" as well, but I answer "no" to mine. I >think that what Dancey is doing is a good idea overall (although still flawed >in some respects), but I think so for very different reasons than Dancey. FWIW, I agree with you here in all respects. I don't think he'll reach his goal, either. -- Bryant Durrell [] durrell@innocence.com [] http://www.innocence.com/~durrell [----------------------------------------------------------------------------] "Conceptions without experience are void; experience without conceptions is blind." -- Albert Einstein ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <8F0DA6B22knight37gamespotmail@209.30.0.14> <20000406020723.07814.00001217@ng-fg1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:38:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.42 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 955010306 208.153.245.42 (Thu, 06 Apr 2000 01:38:26 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 01:38:26 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3041 On 06 Apr 2000 06:07:23 GMT, triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote: >Knight37 wrote: >>>Alright, so I'm an idiot and had forgotten what example game the >>>first poster had used that Justin was responding to... >> >>All I can say is there's a lot of idiocy going on in this thread. ;P >> >>But it's pretty entertaining reading! > >What we need is a rec.games.frp.idiocy NG. ;) Sometimes I think we've already _got_ one...:P ###### Message-ID: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <1e89neu.1i2gtka6nnqsN%berislav.lopac@mcs.hr> <38E8FB7C.5AC07C08@idirect.com> <8caq6a$21c_006@enews.newsguy.com> <38E928C3.871E4833@idirect.com> <38E951F6.76A5C742@idirect.com> <38EA5CC0.CB19CA8E@idirect.com> <8cg8r4$nss$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:43:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.3.77 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 955017824 216.154.3.77 (Thu, 06 Apr 2000 06:43:44 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 06:43:44 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2950 SD Anderson wrote: > One of his stated goals is to put all or most professionally made > RPGs under the D20 system, whether the product gets to use the D20 > trademark or not. That's a broad interpretation of his muddled statement from the interview. We could argue the semantics of what he said, but, from the mailing list and his other messages in answering questions about his intent, his hope seems more in line with the reduction of competing systems and fostering a reluctance amongst publishers to design new systems merely for the sake of designing new systems for their RPGs. He'd likely be ecstatic if the majority of RPG companies decided to go D20, but I doubt he expects it. I wish he'd do a second interview with someone with real journalistic experience so the questions could elicit more precise answers and and ask further questions to eliminate just this sort of confusion. I've the feeling it was an e-mail interview, perhaps one of the worst ways to conduct a comprehensive interview ever conceived. > That pretty much DOES mean current existing alternate game systems > have to cease being published. Good thing? Not as I define good > things. No, it doesn't. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### Message-ID: <38EC98EF.6CD4F524@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38EA5CC0.CB19CA8E@idirect.com> <20000406020541.07814.00001216@ng-fg1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:55:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.3.77 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 955018543 216.154.3.77 (Thu, 06 Apr 2000 06:55:43 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 06:55:43 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2952 Justin Bacon wrote: > Question for you: Do you believe that Dancey's *goal* is a good one? His actual goal or the pipe dream? One of the problems with the interview that I have is that the line between what Ryan expects and what he dreams for isn't clearly drawn. I think his goal is for the reduction of new game systems being introduced, not the reduction of new games. I think his dream is for the majority of the industry to flourish under the D20 system while rejecting different mechanics systems and older systems adapting to the new D20 standard. The former _is_ a realistic goal based on the industry as it stands now and the latter isn't -- therefore it's likely just a "best case scenario" or dream. > I answer both of your questions "yes" as well, but I answer "no" to mine. I > think that what Dancey is doing is a good idea overall (although still flawed > in some respects), but I think so for very different reasons than Dancey. Perhaps I'm more forgiving of his often suit-tied explanations as to his motives -- his rhetoric is as much a part of what he'd have to say to his bosses to get them with his program as it is as it is. I wonder how likely this would be to go through if his comments were carefully optimistic as opposed to wildly optimistic? Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### From: "Frank T. Sronce" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:23:47 -0400 Organization: Oceanography Dept, Texas A&M Lines: 22 Message-ID: <38EC8FE3.FBA0657A@myriad.net> References: <8F0DA6B22knight37gamespotmail@209.30.0.14> <20000406020723.07814.00001217@ng-fg1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deacon.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Apr 2000 14:17:32 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:2941 Justin Bacon wrote: > > Knight37 wrote: > >>Alright, so I'm an idiot and had forgotten what example game the > >>first poster had used that Justin was responding to... > > > >All I can say is there's a lot of idiocy going on in this thread. ;P > > > >But it's pretty entertaining reading! > > What we need is a rec.games.frp.idiocy NG. ;) > > Justin Bacon > triad@prairie.lakes.com Maybe rec.games.frp.idiocy.moderated? No posts allowed unless they're stupid or inflammatory, preferably both. _I'd_ read it. :-) Kiz ###### From: "S. John Ross" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 6 Apr 2000 16:21:30 GMT Organization: Diogenes Studios Lines: 12 Message-ID: <01bf9fe4$345e0500$486602d0@john---sandra> References: <8F0DA6B22knight37gamespotmail@209.30.0.14> <20000406020723.07814.00001217@ng-fg1.aol.com> <38EC8FE3.FBA0657A@myriad.net> X-Trace: hiram.io.com 955038090 6984 208.2.102.72 (6 Apr 2000 16:21:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@io.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!solomon.io.com!hiram.io.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3022 | Maybe rec.games.frp.idiocy.moderated? No posts allowed unless they're | stupid or inflammatory, preferably both. | | _I'd_ read it. :-) He'll, I'd never read anything ELSE ... Stupid, inflammatory posts are what Usenet is FOR, darnit. || S. John Ross || Husband · Cook · Writer || In That Order || http://www.io.com/~sjohn/fonts.htm - FONTS FOR GAMERS ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... From: knight37@gamespotmail.com (Knight37) References: <8F0DA6B22knight37gamespotmail@209.30.0.14> <20000406020723.07814.00001217@ng-fg1.aol.com> <38EC8FE3.FBA0657A@myriad.net> <01bf9fe4$345e0500$486602d0@john---sandra> Message-ID: <8F0E9853Eknight37gamespotmail@209.30.0.14> User-Agent: Xnews/Y2K-SE Lines: 23 Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 20:30:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.246.86.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@flash.net X-Trace: news.flash.net 955053006 208.246.86.5 (Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:30:06 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:30:06 CDT Organization: FlashNet Communications, http://www.flash.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!news.flash.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3135 sjohn@io.com (S. John Ross) wrote: >| Maybe rec.games.frp.idiocy.moderated? No posts allowed >| unless they're >| stupid or inflammatory, preferably both. >| >| _I'd_ read it. :-) > >He'll, I'd never read anything ELSE ... Stupid, inflammatory posts >are what Usenet is FOR, darnit. why limit it to rec.games.frp? I'm sure most of us can be idiots on just about ANY topic. ;P -- Knight37 Knight: "Are all men in the future as arrogant as you?" Ash: "No. Just me, baby." -- "Army of Darkness" ###### Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... From: knight37@gamespotmail.com (Knight37) References: <38e92350$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <20000406020152.07814.00001215@ng-fg1.aol.com> Message-ID: <8F0E9E61Aknight37gamespotmail@209.30.0.14> User-Agent: Xnews/Y2K-SE Lines: 24 Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 20:31:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.246.86.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@flash.net X-Trace: news.flash.net 955053113 208.246.86.5 (Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:31:53 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:31:53 CDT Organization: FlashNet Communications, http://www.flash.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.flash.net!news.flash.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3137 triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote: >Nathan Keir Edel wrote: >>Berislav Lopac wrote: >>% I am an idiot. >> >>Which makes you, according to Socrates, a wise man. > >Socrates was discussing ignorance (lack of knowledge), not idiocy >(lack of brain power). Wisdom is knowing how little you know, not >how low your IQ is. Maybe so, but there is quite a bit of wisdom in knowing when to admit you're an idiot, rather than blindly going on making your mistake that much worse. ;) -- Knight37 Knight: "Are all men in the future as arrogant as you?" Ash: "No. Just me, baby." -- "Army of Darkness" ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 6 Apr 2000 23:13:01 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8cj5lt$ll9$3@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhalb.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 955062781 22185 149.174.240.237 (6 Apr 2000 23:13:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Apr 2000 23:13:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!triton.skycache.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3113 Richard Pace wrote: >> One of his stated goals is to put all or most professionally >> made RPGs under the D20 system, whether the product gets to use >> the D20 trademark or not. > That's a broad interpretation of his muddled statement from the > interview. OR, the interview caught his intent and his subsequent statements have been spin doctoring... > We could argue the semantics of what he said, but, from the > mailing list and his other messages in answering questions about > his intent, his hope seems more in line with the reduction of > competing systems and fostering a reluctance amongst publishers > to design new systems merely for the sake of designing new > systems for their RPGs. At which point the obvious direction of discussion is the relative merits of replacing any given system with D20, a necessary step if we're to see that 'reduction of competing systems'. ###### Message-ID: <38ED5D44.BABF0ECB@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <8cj5lt$ll9$3@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 00:53:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.12.39 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 955068799 216.154.12.39 (Thu, 06 Apr 2000 20:53:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 20:53:19 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3080 SD Anderson wrote: > At which point the obvious direction of discussion is the > relative merits of replacing any given system with D20, a > necessary step if we're to see that 'reduction of competing > systems'. Which has been done already -- some games would do better with different mechanics others would lose their charm and feel without their mechanics. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 10 Apr 2000 04:12:54 GMT References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3289 Richard Pace wrote: >his hope >seems more in line with the reduction of competing systems [snip] >> That pretty much DOES mean current existing alternate game systems >> have to cease being published. > >No, it doesn't. How do you reduce the number of competing systems, without having some of the existing competing systems cease publication? Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### Message-ID: <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 48 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:43:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.9.37 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 955403032 216.154.9.37 (Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:43:52 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:43:52 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3344 Justin Bacon wrote: > Richard Pace wrote: > >his hope > >seems more in line with the reduction of competing systems > > [snip] > > >> That pretty much DOES mean current existing alternate game systems > >> have to cease being published. > > > >No, it doesn't. > > How do you reduce the number of competing systems, without having some of the > existing competing systems cease publication? The new, not yet made games use the OGL. Complete hypothetical -- no research backing this up whatsoever: Let's say there are four brand spanking new games published a year -- that's four completely new systems as well so I'm not counting the pending release of WW's Coprophage: The Excrement using the Storyteller system. Let's say two of those decide they're better off using an OGL system -- that's two LESS competing systems that year. Consider that any of the major players could, without warning, go belly up in this tiny market and that new game longevity seems pretty unlikely, over the next five years we could have a market completely devoid of D20 product or one completely dominated by it. No established games have to drop their core mechanics and none of them have to go out of business for this to occur. If other companies OGL their core systems there'll be a further decrease in new competing systems. Those new systems that do come along have to be that much better to compete against a possible D20 network of genres that may already cover the material of the new system. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### Message-ID: <38F24C09.3289@wizvax.net> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:47:53 -0400 From: Sea Wasp Reply-To: seawasp@wizvax.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com X-Trace: 10 Apr 2000 17:49:51 -0400, cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com Lines: 38 XPident: tuulia X-Authenticated-User: seawasp X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!fu-berlin.de!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!cm-24-29-53-166.nycap.rr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3414 Richard Pace wrote: > > Justin Bacon wrote: > > > Richard Pace wrote: > > >his hope > > >seems more in line with the reduction of competing systems > > > > [snip] > > > > >> That pretty much DOES mean current existing alternate game systems > > >> have to cease being published. > > > > > >No, it doesn't. > > > > How do you reduce the number of competing systems, without having some of the > > existing competing systems cease publication? > > The new, not yet made games use the OGL. > > Complete hypothetical -- no research backing this up whatsoever: > > Let's say there are four brand spanking new games published a year -- that's four > completely new systems as well so I'm not counting the pending release of WW's > Coprophage: The Excrement using the Storyteller system. Let's say two of those > decide they're better off using an OGL system -- that's two LESS competing > systems that year. But if I understand the OGL correctly, they CAN'T decide that, because they cannot publish their "system". At the most, they can publish "Space Opera Supplement" or "Mystery Gamer's Companion" rather than "The Space Opera Game" or "The Mystery Game". -- Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html /^\ ;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html ###### Message-ID: <38F29281.76652CE8@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F24C09.3289@wizvax.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:41:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.0.134 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 955410116 216.154.0.134 (Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:41:56 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:41:56 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3342 Sea Wasp wrote: > Richard Pace wrote: > > > > Justin Bacon wrote: > > > > > Richard Pace wrote: > > > >his hope > > > >seems more in line with the reduction of competing systems > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > >> That pretty much DOES mean current existing alternate game systems > > > >> have to cease being published. > > > > > > > >No, it doesn't. > > > > > > How do you reduce the number of competing systems, without having some of the > > > existing competing systems cease publication? > > > > The new, not yet made games use the OGL. > > > > Complete hypothetical -- no research backing this up whatsoever: > > > > Let's say there are four brand spanking new games published a year -- that's four > > completely new systems as well so I'm not counting the pending release of WW's > > Coprophage: The Excrement using the Storyteller system. Let's say two of those > > decide they're better off using an OGL system -- that's two LESS competing > > systems that year. > > But if I understand the OGL correctly, they CAN'T decide that, because > they cannot publish their "system". At the most, they can publish "Space > Opera Supplement" or "Mystery Gamer's Companion" rather than "The Space > Opera Game" or "The Mystery Game". You don't. You're confusing the D20 System Trade Mark License (requires the PHB to use) with the Open Gaming License (based on the D20 resolution mechanics). Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 03:08:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.42 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 955422533 208.153.245.42 (Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:08:53 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:08:53 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3380 On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:43:52 GMT, Richard Pace wrote: >Those new systems that do come along have to be that much better to compete >against a possible D20 network of genres that may already cover the material of >the new system. Not so. They just have to be more to enough people's tastes. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 11 Apr 2000 07:31:25 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8cukcd$suv$2@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhakm.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 955438285 29663 149.174.242.225 (11 Apr 2000 07:31:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Apr 2000 07:31:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3372 Richard Pace wrote: >> How do you reduce the number of competing systems, without >> having some of the existing competing systems cease >> publication? > The new, not yet made games use the OGL. A) What have 'not yet made games' got to do with 'having some of the existing competing systems cease publication?' 'Not yet made' and 'existing' are somewhat contradictory you see. B) Even if new games use OGL, what happens to these old non-OGL games? Unless they stop being published, the 'reduction of competing systems' doesn't occur. ###### Message-ID: <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:47:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.13.222 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 955450054 216.154.13.222 (Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:47:34 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:47:34 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3346 Wayne Shaw wrote: > On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:43:52 GMT, Richard Pace > wrote: > > >Those new systems that do come along have to be that much better to compete > >against a possible D20 network of genres that may already cover the material of > >the new system. > > Not so. They just have to be more to enough people's tastes. ". . . More to enough . . ." what? Sorry, I don't understand what you wrote. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### Message-ID: <38F37384.F724B40C@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <8cukcd$suv$2@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:42:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.0.53 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 955467721 216.154.0.53 (Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:42:01 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:42:01 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3343 SD Anderson wrote: > Richard Pace wrote: > >> How do you reduce the number of competing systems, without > >> having some of the existing competing systems cease > >> publication? > > > The new, not yet made games use the OGL. > > A) What have 'not yet made games' got to do with 'having some > of the existing competing systems cease publication?' Nothing. > 'Not yet made' and 'existing' are somewhat contradictory you > see. Hard to talk about potential situations without taking into account the difference between 'Not yet made' and 'existing'. > > B) Even if new games use OGL, what happens to these old non-OGL > games? Unless they stop being published, the 'reduction of > competing systems' doesn't occur. Yup -- mathematically it still does. As soon as one new game chooses OGL instead of a new system it's effectively reduced the competing systems. Take into account that game companies and game lines are always dying off anyway without WotC lifting a finger or intending for them to go away and you have a further reduction in competing systems. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### From: Scott Barrie Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:20:19 -0400 Organization: The University of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Canada Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: trollsden.physics.uwo.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: panther.uwo.ca 955470038 19201 129.100.24.149 (11 Apr 2000 16:20:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@julian.uwo.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Apr 2000 16:20:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3407 On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:47:34 GMT, Richard Pace wrote: >Wayne Shaw wrote: > >> Not so. They just have to be more to enough people's tastes. > >". . . More to enough . . ." what? > >Sorry, I don't understand what you wrote. Something can be: more to my taste. more to his taste. more to some people's taste. more to enough people's taste. HTH Scott B. Barrie Physics Grad Student Quest Free RPG -AD&D flavour, but without the annoying parts. And I didn't write it http://trollsden.physics.uwo.ca/quest.htm ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:43:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.42 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 955478620 208.153.245.42 (Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:43:40 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:43:40 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3382 On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:47:34 GMT, Richard Pace wrote: >Wayne Shaw wrote: > >> On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:43:52 GMT, Richard Pace >> wrote: >> >> >Those new systems that do come along have to be that much better to compete >> >against a possible D20 network of genres that may already cover the material of >> >the new system. >> >> Not so. They just have to be more to enough people's tastes. > >". . . More to enough . . ." what? > >Sorry, I don't understand what you wrote. The games don't have to be better; they just have to suit enough people's tastes more. While you can define that as "better" if you want I suppose, it's not really a good usage. There are mechanics that can only be assessed in terms of whether people like them; they do some things better and some things worse than other sets of mechanics, but they may suit people's needs more, even though you can't really make an argument about their "quality" without reference to what you want out of a game. The problem with this whole argument, as others have pointed out is that mechanics _aren't_ just an enabler for a game; for better or worse, they're a visible part of it. So unlike a mechanism that's invisible to the user, where all you really need to care about is end results such as speed, reliability and so on, the mechanism itself is, in fact, part of the evaluation when using a game system. As such, trying to have an overarching game system only works if everyone wants the same thing. And they don't. ###### Message-ID: <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:04:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.4.132 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 955483453 216.154.4.132 (Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:04:13 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:04:13 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!CensurBot.NetScum.Dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3420 Wayne Shaw wrote: > The games don't have to be better; they just have to suit enough > people's tastes more. While you can define that as "better" if you > want I suppose, it's not really a good usage. Ah, okay. I was using "better mechanics" subjectively. About a year ago I started a thread claiming that new system design was essentially reinventing the wheel; the device to role-play had already been invented and all the new rules were just superficial details. So let me amend "better" to more appealing. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:26:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.42 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 955491966 208.153.245.42 (Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:26:06 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:26:06 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3456 On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:04:13 GMT, Richard Pace wrote: >Wayne Shaw wrote: > >> The games don't have to be better; they just have to suit enough >> people's tastes more. While you can define that as "better" if you >> want I suppose, it's not really a good usage. > >Ah, okay. I was using "better mechanics" subjectively. About a year ago I started a >thread claiming that new system design was essentially reinventing the wheel; the >device to role-play had already been invented and all the new rules were just >superficial details. > >So let me amend "better" to more appealing. So the problem is, more appealing to who? Different people find different things appealing. People who like intricate mechanical detail in supporting managing their barony in a fantasy world aren't likely to be happy with the same system that makes for a fast and furious Hong Kong action game. ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 12 Apr 2000 03:05:24 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.6e X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3453 Wayne Shaw writes: > So the problem is, more appealing to who? Different people find > different things appealing. People who like intricate mechanical > detail in supporting managing their barony in a fantasy world aren't > likely to be happy with the same system that makes for a fast and > furious Hong Kong action game. The important distinction here is that a system that can handle "fast and furious" can probably handle running a barony, but the reverse is not true. The way to go is simplicity and consistency; it is easier to add new parts to an existing simple system than it is to prune away parts of a complicated system. -- Dan ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: <+fPzOH5v9qgYIhlqrC1GbtOTMK1F@4ax.com> References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 03:58:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.42 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 955511904 208.153.245.42 (Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:58:24 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:58:24 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3450 On 12 Apr 2000 03:05:24 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >Wayne Shaw writes: > >> So the problem is, more appealing to who? Different people find >> different things appealing. People who like intricate mechanical >> detail in supporting managing their barony in a fantasy world aren't >> likely to be happy with the same system that makes for a fast and >> furious Hong Kong action game. > >The important distinction here is that a system that can handle >"fast and furious" can probably handle running a barony, but the I don't particularly agree with this. For a system to handle detail right, it has to be embodied in the rules in a fashion that typically resists stripping down without a heavy price. On the other hand, a system designed for speed can't necessarily just have extra features bolted on to produce the effect of the greater detail properly...the underlaying structure just isn't up to the task. >reverse is not true. The way to go is simplicity and consistency; >it is easier to add new parts to an existing simple system >than it is to prune away parts of a complicated system. As I said, I don't find one particularly easier than the other. You run into problems with either. ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 12 Apr 2000 05:24:04 GMT References: <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000412012404.29482.00001025@ng-fp1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3436 Richard Pace wrote: >Let's say there are four brand spanking new games published a year -- that's four >completely new systems as well so I'm not counting the pending release of WW's >Coprophage: The Excrement using the Storyteller system. Let's say two of those >decide they're better off using an OGL system -- that's two LESS competing >systems that year. "Reducing the number of competing systems" and "reducing the number of *new* competing systems" are not synonymous. >go belly up in >this tiny market and that new game longevity seems pretty unlikely, over the next >five years we could have a market completely devoid of D20 product or one >completely dominated by it. Five years? GURPS, Hero, Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicles, Ars Magica, Call of Cthulu, the Storyteller games... The mind pretty much boggles at the number of systems out there five years or older. Quite a few other games (such as DEADLANDS, LEGEND OF THE FIVE RINGS, and FENG SHUI) are 1996 games and about to tick over into the five year mark. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 12 Apr 2000 05:28:11 GMT References: <38F37384.F724B40C@idirect.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000412012811.29482.00001026@ng-fp1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3437 Richard Pace wrote: >Yup -- mathematically it still does. As soon as one new game chooses >OGL instead of a new system it's effectively reduced the competing >systems. Ah, so when you said "reduce the number of competing systems"... that isn't what you actually meant. >Take into account that game companies and game lines are always dying >off anyway without WotC lifting a finger or intending for them to go >away and you have a further reduction in competing systems. And when you said "without competing systems ceasing publication" you actually meant "with competing systems ceasing publication". Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 12 Apr 2000 09:00:33 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 41 Message-ID: <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <+fPzOH5v9qgYIhlqrC1GbtOTMK1F@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.74 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3455 Wayne Shaw writes: >On 12 Apr 2000 03:05:24 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >>Wayne Shaw writes: >> >>> So the problem is, more appealing to who? Different people find >>> different things appealing. People who like intricate mechanical >>> detail in supporting managing their barony in a fantasy world aren't >>> likely to be happy with the same system that makes for a fast and >>> furious Hong Kong action game. >> >>The important distinction here is that a system that can handle >>"fast and furious" can probably handle running a barony, but the > I don't particularly agree with this. For a system to handle > detail right, it has to be embodied in the rules in a fashion > that typically hresists stripping down without a heavy price. If your goal is a degree simulationist accuracy -- ie, getting as close as feasible to what running a barony would _really_ be like -- then no pen and pencil system is going to do it. Accurate economic modelling is beyond even a computer model, let alone one where you must crunch the numbers yourself. If you are content to let the GM dictate certain overall conditions (war, famine, etc), however, you can do it. In such a case the act of running a barony is really nothing more than the act of making the appropriate decisions as leader of that barony and/or letting your functionaries handle the details. All of this can be represented by two things: a skill roll, and thought on the part of the player. Thus, even Feng Shui could handle running a barony. Simply create an Administration skill, which (as all FS skills do) naturally includes contacts (people a Baron would need to know) and information (details about what in the barony produces what). -- Dan ###### Message-ID: <38F47C51.B1D23BF6@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <20000412012404.29482.00001025@ng-fp1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 50 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:31:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.10.31 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 955535507 216.154.10.31 (Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:31:47 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:31:47 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3421 Justin Bacon wrote: > Richard Pace wrote: > >Let's say there are four brand spanking new games published a year -- that's > four > >completely new systems as well so I'm not counting the pending release of WW's > >Coprophage: The Excrement using the Storyteller system. Let's say two of > those > >decide they're better off using an OGL system -- that's two LESS competing > >systems that year. > > "Reducing the number of competing systems" and "reducing the number of *new* > competing systems" are not synonymous. So? Adding the *new* is exclusive. "Reducing the number of competing systems" isn't. > > > >go belly up in > >this tiny market and that new game longevity seems pretty unlikely, over the > next > >five years we could have a market completely devoid of D20 product or one > >completely dominated by it. > > Five years? GURPS, Hero, Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicles, Ars Magica, Call of > Cthulu, the Storyteller games... The mind pretty much boggles at the number of > systems out there five years or older. Quite a few other games (such as > DEADLANDS, LEGEND OF THE FIVE RINGS, and FENG SHUI) are 1996 games and about to > tick over into the five year mark. > Do I need to dredge up a list of the games that went away in the last five years? Take a look at your list and consider how some of them had gone out of print or changed publishers due to the market instability - aren't two of your 1996 picks already on their second publisher? Hell, Unknown Armies changed publishers before it was even finished. Hell, just two years ago AD&D almost went the way of the dodo -- so any belief of gaming longevity is based on a very few games in comparison to the hundreds that have disappeared.. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### Message-ID: <38F47DC7.9347ED9A@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38F37384.F724B40C@idirect.com> <20000412012811.29482.00001026@ng-fp1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:38:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.10.31 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 955535880 216.154.10.31 (Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:38:00 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:38:00 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3424 Justin Bacon wrote: > Richard Pace wrote: > >Yup -- mathematically it still does. As soon as one new game chooses > >OGL instead of a new system it's effectively reduced the competing > >systems. > > Ah, so when you said "reduce the number of competing systems"... that isn't > what you actually meant. Yeah, it is. I see where you're sticking -- the idea that reducing the number of competing systems HAS to actually subtract from the current number, but since we're talking about a license that doesn't even exist yet we have to talk about a possible number. > >Take into account that game companies and game lines are always dying > >off anyway without WotC lifting a finger or intending for them to go > >away and you have a further reduction in competing systems. > > And when you said "without competing systems ceasing publication" you actually > meant "with competing systems ceasing publication". > No, you snipped the part where I added that as an additional factor. If this was all I wrote, it would have been a clever comeback, but considering that you had to distort the intent to write it, you get no points. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### From: craigo@dmtcorp.com (Ichabod) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <+fPzOH5v9qgYIhlqrC1GbtOTMK1F@4ax.com> <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Lines: 57 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:11:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.174.13.181 X-Complaints-To: abuse@adelphia.net X-Trace: news1.news.adelphia.net 955548705 216.174.13.181 (Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:11:45 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:11:45 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!router1.news.adelphia.net!news.hyperioncom.net!news1.news.adelphia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3426 In article <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > Wayne Shaw writes: > > >On 12 Apr 2000 03:05:24 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > > >>Wayne Shaw writes: > >> > >>> So the problem is, more appealing to who? Different people find > >>> different things appealing. People who like intricate mechanical > >>> detail in supporting managing their barony in a fantasy world aren't > >>> likely to be happy with the same system that makes for a fast and > >>> furious Hong Kong action game. > >> > >>The important distinction here is that a system that can handle > >>"fast and furious" can probably handle running a barony, but the > > > I don't particularly agree with this. For a system to handle > > detail right, it has to be embodied in the rules in a fashion > > that typically hresists stripping down without a heavy price. > > If your goal is a degree simulationist accuracy -- ie, getting > as close as feasible to what running a barony would _really_ > be like -- then no pen and pencil system is going to do it. > Accurate economic modelling is beyond even a computer model, > let alone one where you must crunch the numbers yourself. > > If you are content to let the GM dictate certain overall > conditions (war, famine, etc), however, you can do it. In > such a case the act of running a barony is really nothing > more than the act of making the appropriate decisions as > leader of that barony and/or letting your functionaries > handle the details. All of this can be represented by > two things: a skill roll, and thought on the part of > the player. Just because we can't get exact simulation doesn't mean that all simulations are equal. That's like saying that just because Rolemaster can't simulate combat perfectly, then it's just as detailed as Feng Shui. And no "adding on" is going to make Feng Shui into Rolemaster, the system is too granular to start with. > Thus, even Feng Shui could handle running a barony. Simply > create an Administration skill, which (as all FS skills > do) naturally includes contacts (people a Baron would need > to know) and information (details about what in the barony > produces what). Sure Feng Shui can handle it, any RPG can theoretically handle anything. But Feng Shui isn't going to provide much detail, the players and GM will have to provide pretty much all of it. -- Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien ###### From: voxel@theramp.net (Bryant Berggren) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:41:40 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 28 Message-ID: <38f4b3cf.321953351@news.theramp.net> References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <+fPzOH5v9qgYIhlqrC1GbtOTMK1F@4ax.com> <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!128.223.220.30!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3607 On Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:11:45 GMT, craigo@dmtcorp.com (Ichabod) wrote: >In article <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com >(Dan Bongard) wrote: >> Thus, even Feng Shui could handle running a barony. Simply >> create an Administration skill, which (as all FS skills >> do) naturally includes contacts (people a Baron would need >> to know) and information (details about what in the barony >> produces what). > >Sure Feng Shui can handle it, any RPG can theoretically >handle anything. But Feng Shui isn't going to provide >much detail, the players and GM will have to provide >pretty much all of it. Which is an important point, I think. I hear a lot made of the idea that, due to the sledgehammer of GM Effort, /N/ system can handle any situation. I'd compare this to the Turing tar-pit -- theoretically, any machine capable of a very tiny set of operations can perform identical tasks to modern computers ... but modern computers aren't this minimalist, because they'd be too slow and painful. I spend money on professionally published game materials because I want someone ELSE to do the work -- that's what the money is going for. I find it counterproductive to spend money for the privilege of being told "Do it yourself, that isn't important to me". BRB ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 12 Apr 2000 19:03:41 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mhacm.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com 955566221 5642 149.174.240.13 (12 Apr 2000 19:03:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Apr 2000 19:03:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3574 Ichabod wrote: >> Thus, even Feng Shui could handle running a barony. Simply >> create an Administration skill, which (as all FS skills >> do) naturally includes contacts (people a Baron would need >> to know) and information (details about what in the barony >> produces what). > Sure Feng Shui can handle it, any RPG can theoretically > handle anything. But Feng Shui isn't going to provide > much detail, the players and GM will have to provide > pretty much all of it. And often, a GM who is great at running existing rules isn't so good at making them, particularly on the fly. Bongard's claim that fast/simple games can handle details like running a barony only holds true if you allow running the barony under fuzzy and/or arbitrary conditions. His claim runs contrary to my experience. 'Detail in Detail out' if you will. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 12 Apr 2000 19:08:05 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8d2hil$5ga$5@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <38F37384.F724B40C@idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhacm.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com 955566485 5642 149.174.240.13 (12 Apr 2000 19:08:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Apr 2000 19:08:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3575 Richard Pace wrote: >> Richard Pace wrote: >>>> How do you reduce the number of competing systems, without >>>> having some of the existing competing systems cease >>>> publication? >>> The new, not yet made games use the OGL. >> A) What have 'not yet made games' got to do with 'having >> some of the existing competing systems cease publication?' > Nothing. >> 'Not yet made' and 'existing' are somewhat contradictory you >> see. > Hard to talk about potential situations without taking into > account the difference between 'Not yet made' and 'existing'. So why precisely did YOU make the comparison then? When asked about existing games, you answered 'new games'. ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 12 Apr 2000 20:11:00 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 69 Message-ID: <8d2l8k$eal$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <+fPzOH5v9qgYIhlqrC1GbtOTMK1F@4ax.com> <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.68 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3689 craigo@dmtcorp.com (Ichabod) writes: >In article <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com >(Dan Bongard) wrote: >> Wayne Shaw writes: >> >> >On 12 Apr 2000 03:05:24 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >> >> >>Wayne Shaw writes: >> >> >> >>> So the problem is, more appealing to who? Different people find >> >>> different things appealing. People who like intricate mechanical >> >>> detail in supporting managing their barony in a fantasy world aren't >> >>> likely to be happy with the same system that makes for a fast and >> >>> furious Hong Kong action game. >> >> >> >>The important distinction here is that a system that can handle >> >>"fast and furious" can probably handle running a barony, but the >> >> > I don't particularly agree with this. For a system to handle >> > detail right, it has to be embodied in the rules in a fashion >> > that typically hresists stripping down without a heavy price. >> >> If your goal is a degree simulationist accuracy -- ie, getting >> as close as feasible to what running a barony would _really_ >> be like -- then no pen and pencil system is going to do it. >> Accurate economic modelling is beyond even a computer model, >> let alone one where you must crunch the numbers yourself. >> >> If you are content to let the GM dictate certain overall >> conditions (war, famine, etc), however, you can do it. In >> such a case the act of running a barony is really nothing >> more than the act of making the appropriate decisions as >> leader of that barony and/or letting your functionaries >> handle the details. All of this can be represented by >> two things: a skill roll, and thought on the part of >> the player. > Just because we can't get exact simulation doesn't mean > that all simulations are equal. Never mind "exact" -- you can't even get a _remotely_ accurate economic model if you're crunching the numbers by hand. Not unless you want to spend weeks or months of real-life time handling each year of the barony. > That's like saying that just because Rolemaster can't > simulate combat perfectly, then it's just as detailed > as Feng Shui. Rolemaster is not inherently more detailed than Feng Shui; Rolemaster merely determines the detail randomly, whereas Feng Shui determines the detail through player/GM consensus. It would be a simple matter to simply roll on a Rolemaster crit table if you wanted some flavor-text to go with your Feng Shui to-hit results. > And no "adding on" is going to make Feng Shui into > Rolemaster, the system is too granular to start with. You couldn't make "Feng Shui into Rolemaster" very easily, yes. You could, however, make Feng Shui into a system that can do everything Rolemaster can do without very much effort. Rolemaster is hardly a well-designed or efficient system (although I still enjoy playing it occasionally). -- Dan ###### From: craigo@dmtcorp.com (Ichabod) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <+fPzOH5v9qgYIhlqrC1GbtOTMK1F@4ax.com> <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <8d2l8k$eal$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Lines: 19 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:47:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.174.13.181 X-Complaints-To: abuse@adelphia.net X-Trace: news1.news.adelphia.net 955572420 216.174.13.181 (Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:47:00 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:47:00 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!newsfeed.axxsys.net!router1.news.adelphia.net!news.hyperioncom.net!news1.news.adelphia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3513 In article <8d2l8k$eal$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > Rolemaster is not inherently more detailed than Feng Shui; > Rolemaster merely determines the detail randomly, whereas > Feng Shui determines the detail through player/GM consensus. > It would be a simple matter to simply roll on a Rolemaster > crit table if you wanted some flavor-text to go with > your Feng Shui to-hit results. Rolemaster is inherently more detailed than Feng Shui. A given session of Rolemaster isn't, but the rules are. That's the point. Some games give you the detail, some require/let you make the detail yourself. Some people like one way, some the other, but they are definately not the same thing. -- Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:47:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.26 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 955572460 208.153.245.26 (Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:47:40 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:47:40 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!feed2.usenet-server.onemain.com.MISMATCH!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3625 On 12 Apr 2000 19:03:41 GMT, SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> wrote: > And often, a GM who is great at running existing rules isn't so >good at making them, particularly on the fly. Bongard's claim >that fast/simple games can handle details like running a barony >only holds true if you allow running the barony under fuzzy and/or >arbitrary conditions. I'll go so far as to say that people who can handle making up consistent rules for this sort of thing on the fly over time are a vanishingly small breed. I haven't seen Bongard's actual message yet since my newsfeed is being bizarre today, but I think from the part's I've seen quoted that he's seriously confusing his own desires and tolerance for freeform solutions to this problem for a universal trait. ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: <=OD0OHvQH8s7hVlajJCPaYEDDp7t@4ax.com> References: <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <+fPzOH5v9qgYIhlqrC1GbtOTMK1F@4ax.com> <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <8d2l8k$eal$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:49:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.26 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 955572575 208.153.245.26 (Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:49:35 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:49:35 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!feeder.qis.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3643 On 12 Apr 2000 20:11:00 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >> Just because we can't get exact simulation doesn't mean >> that all simulations are equal. > >Never mind "exact" -- you can't even get a _remotely_ accurate >economic model if you're crunching the numbers by hand. Not >unless you want to spend weeks or months of real-life time >handling each year of the barony. You can get a model exact enough for the purposes you're using it, however. I think you've got a serious case of binary disease; if it isn't perfect enough to suit you, it isn't worth doing for anyone. Not the case. ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 12 Apr 2000 21:39:19 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.74 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3681 Wayne Shaw writes: >On 12 Apr 2000 19:03:41 GMT, SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> >wrote: >> And often, a GM who is great at running existing rules isn't so >>good at making them, particularly on the fly. Bongard's claim >>that fast/simple games can handle details like running a barony >>only holds true if you allow running the barony under fuzzy and/or >>arbitrary conditions. >I'll go so far as to say that people who can handle making up >consistent rules for this sort of thing on the fly over time are a >vanishingly small breed. This strikes me as being besides the point -- you never need to make up rules for something like running a barony "on the fly". If a player is going to be in a position to do something like that, you'll know in advance. The kind of rules you need to make up on the fly are things like "how far can I jump?" and "how many merchants are there in this town". Rules for those sorts of things can be system-independent. -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 12 Apr 2000 21:41:21 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8d2qi1$hu7$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <+fPzOH5v9qgYIhlqrC1GbtOTMK1F@4ax.com> <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <8d2l8k$eal$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> In article <8d2l8k$eal$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com >(Dan Bongard) wrote: >> Rolemaster is not inherently more detailed than Feng Shui; >> Rolemaster merely determines the detail randomly, whereas >> Feng Shui determines the detail through player/GM consensus. >> It would be a simple matter to simply roll on a Rolemaster >> crit table if you wanted some flavor-text to go with >> your Feng Shui to-hit results. >Rolemaster is inherently more detailed than Feng Shui. >A given session of Rolemaster isn't, but the rules are. The end results are what matter. If the visibile complexity of two games aren't distinguishable, the one which requires less effort and fewer rules to achieve the same results is the one you want to be using. -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 12 Apr 2000 21:49:31 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8d2r1b$v9i$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> References: <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <+fPzOH5v9qgYIhlqrC1GbtOTMK1F@4ax.com> <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <8d2l8k$eal$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <=OD0OHvQH8s7hVlajJCPaYEDDp7t@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.74 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3702 Wayne Shaw writes: >On 12 Apr 2000 20:11:00 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >>> Just because we can't get exact simulation doesn't mean >>> that all simulations are equal. >> >>Never mind "exact" -- you can't even get a _remotely_ accurate >>economic model if you're crunching the numbers by hand. Not >>unless you want to spend weeks or months of real-life time >>handling each year of the barony. > You can get a model exact enough for the purposes you're > using it, however. You can get a model that is exact to whatever degree the game designers (a) felt like making it and (b) were competent to make it. > I think you've got a serious case of binary disease; if it > isn't perfect enough to suit you, it isn't worth doing for > anyone. Not the case. You're wrong. My point is that a complicated system that yields bad results is inferior to a simple system that yields results which are at least as accurate. Very few people enjoy complicated rules for their own sake. -- Dan ###### Message-ID: <38F5254A.52699221@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38F37384.F724B40C@idirect.com> <8d2hil$5ga$5@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 22:32:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.10.234 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 955578766 216.154.10.234 (Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:32:46 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:32:46 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3489 SD Anderson wrote: > > Hard to talk about potential situations without taking into > > account the difference between 'Not yet made' and 'existing'. > > So why precisely did YOU make the comparison then? When asked > about existing games, you answered 'new games'. Because the OGL is more likely to effect the development of new games. Considering that the OGL doesn't really exist yet, everything is in the hypothetical future. I have, however, been contacted by one games designer who has decided to utilize the OGL (when it's made official) for his already in-development game. In essence, the OGL has already possibly reduced the proliferation of of yet another system. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 38 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:18:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.42 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 955585106 208.153.245.42 (Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:18:26 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:18:26 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3641 On 12 Apr 2000 21:39:19 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >Wayne Shaw writes: > >>On 12 Apr 2000 19:03:41 GMT, SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> >>wrote: > > >>> And often, a GM who is great at running existing rules isn't so >>>good at making them, particularly on the fly. Bongard's claim >>>that fast/simple games can handle details like running a barony >>>only holds true if you allow running the barony under fuzzy and/or >>>arbitrary conditions. > >>I'll go so far as to say that people who can handle making up >>consistent rules for this sort of thing on the fly over time are a >>vanishingly small breed. > >This strikes me as being besides the point -- you never need >to make up rules for something like running a barony "on the >fly". If a player is going to be in a position to do something >like that, you'll know in advance. The kind of rules you >need to make up on the fly are things like "how far can I >jump?" and "how many merchants are there in this town". Rules >for those sorts of things can be system-independent. > None the less, those can still involve complexities if that's what you're looking for (someone who is going to focus his game on a lot of outdoor survival sitautions for example) and he either is going to have those rules or have to improvise with great frequency. The more often he has to do the latter and to the greater degree, the more likely he is to make bad decisions that he hasn't had time to review, or simply to be inconsistent. From where I sit that's no virtue at all. >-- Dan ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: <=w71OLp20FTz5QOQHFe9WUIQJR=+@4ax.com> References: <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <+fPzOH5v9qgYIhlqrC1GbtOTMK1F@4ax.com> <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <8d2l8k$eal$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <=OD0OHvQH8s7hVlajJCPaYEDDp7t@4ax.com> <8d2r1b$v9i$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:18:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.42 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 955585109 208.153.245.42 (Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:18:29 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:18:29 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.flash.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3608 On 12 Apr 2000 21:49:31 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >Wayne Shaw writes: > >>On 12 Apr 2000 20:11:00 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > > >>>> Just because we can't get exact simulation doesn't mean >>>> that all simulations are equal. >>> >>>Never mind "exact" -- you can't even get a _remotely_ accurate >>>economic model if you're crunching the numbers by hand. Not >>>unless you want to spend weeks or months of real-life time >>>handling each year of the barony. > >> You can get a model exact enough for the purposes you're >> using it, however. > >You can get a model that is exact to whatever degree the game >designers (a) felt like making it and (b) were competent to >make it. Or to the degree you've modified the areas that bother you. Not all complex systems are used exactly out of the box, but it's much easier to modify than to generate from the ground up. And presumeably the degree of success of the designers in meeting your needs is one of the criteria used when selecting the system. Most people don't decide on a game system just by throwing darts. > >> I think you've got a serious case of binary disease; if it >> isn't perfect enough to suit you, it isn't worth doing for >> anyone. Not the case. > >You're wrong. My point is that a complicated system that >yields bad results is inferior to a simple system that >yields results which are at least as accurate. Very few >people enjoy complicated rules for their own sake. And many people find a system to simple to handle the detail level they need far more useless than a complex system that at least has the level of fineness they need. It's much easier to find a near approximation in the latter case and alter than it is to bolt on the needed complexity and have any hope of it interrelating with other parts of the game system right in the former. ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 13 Apr 2000 00:58:34 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 75 Message-ID: <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.6a X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3666 Wayne Shaw writes: >On 12 Apr 2000 21:39:19 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >>Wayne Shaw writes: >> >>>On 12 Apr 2000 19:03:41 GMT, SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> >>>wrote: >> >> >>>> And often, a GM who is great at running existing rules isn't so >>>>good at making them, particularly on the fly. Bongard's claim >>>>that fast/simple games can handle details like running a barony >>>>only holds true if you allow running the barony under fuzzy and/or >>>>arbitrary conditions. >> >>>I'll go so far as to say that people who can handle making up >>>consistent rules for this sort of thing on the fly over time are a >>>vanishingly small breed. >> >>This strikes me as being besides the point -- you never need >>to make up rules for something like running a barony "on the >>fly". If a player is going to be in a position to do something >>like that, you'll know in advance. The kind of rules you >>need to make up on the fly are things like "how far can I >>jump?" and "how many merchants are there in this town". Rules >>for those sorts of things can be system-independent. > None the less, those can still involve complexities if that's what > you're looking for (someone who is going to focus his game on a lot of > outdoor survival sitautions for example) and he either is going to > have those rules or have to improvise with great frequency. Not "with great frequency" unless the players insist on exacting detail in a wide range of unrelated areas on a regular basis. A GM in that situation is stuck doing boatloads of work regardless of what system he's using. He is _still_, in my experience, better off adding onto a simple system instead of hoping a complex system has what he needs. Take typical "complex systems" such as AD&D, Rolemaster, or GURPS -- there may well be a rule for what you need, but often as not it is a broken rule and you're better off creating a rule of your own. Another important point here: anything that can be expressed as a formal rule can be handled better by a computer than it can be by a human. Any company wishing to release a complicated pen-and-pencial game in this day and age should have its collective head examined; it is entering into competition with the computer RPG/simulation/strategy market, which can do everything a pen-and-pencil sim can do faster, better, and with as much human input. The areas in which RPGs have an edge -- the ONLY areas in which RPGs have an edge -- over computer games is in human interaction and imagination. The former is rapidly becoming a non-issue; in a few years the sole appeal of RPGs to newcomers will be the imagination side of things. > The more often he has to do the latter and to the greater > degree, the more likely he is to make bad decisions that > he hasn't had time to review, or simply to be inconsistent. > From where I sit that's no virtue at all. In my experience game designers seldom do a good job providing simulationist rules, unless the game is built specifically towards that area of simulation. AD&D, Rolemaster, and RuneQuest, for all that they are set in "heroic fantasy" worlds, have rules for medieval society life that ange from "horribly broken" to "mostly nonexistant". You really are better off junking everything and simply reading a book on the subject. -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 13 Apr 2000 01:07:52 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 57 Message-ID: <8d36l8$7mr$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> References: <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <+fPzOH5v9qgYIhlqrC1GbtOTMK1F@4ax.com> <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <8d2l8k$eal$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <=OD0OHvQH8s7hVlajJCPaYEDDp7t@4ax.com> <8d2r1b$v9i$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <=w71OLp20FTz5QOQHFe9WUIQJR=+@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.6a X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3670 Wayne Shaw writes: >On 12 Apr 2000 21:49:31 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >>Wayne Shaw writes: >>>On 12 Apr 2000 20:11:00 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >>> You can get a model exact enough for the purposes you're >>> using it, however. >> You can get a model that is exact to whatever degree the game >> designers (a) felt like making it and (b) were competent to >> make it. > Or to the degree you've modified the areas that bother you. Unless you decide simply to accept the rules as-is, warts and all, you end up going through them looking for weaknesses, patching exploitable areas, junking some parts, and inventing others. Unless the system starts off being almost exactly what you want chances are you'd save time either making something up on your own, or simply appropriating part of a game that DOES handle things correctly. And note that even when a game handles X correctly, there is no guarantee it handles Y correctly. It is better to have a simple underlying system and add X and Y modules should they turn out to be necessary. >>> I think you've got a serious case of binary disease; if it >>> isn't perfect enough to suit you, it isn't worth doing for >>> anyone. Not the case. >> You're wrong. My point is that a complicated system that >> yields bad results is inferior to a simple system that >> yields results which are at least as accurate. Very few >> people enjoy complicated rules for their own sake. > And many people find a system to simple to handle the detail > level they need far more useless than a complex system that > at least has the level of fineness they need. There is no such thing as "too simple to handle the detail level you need" unless the players are simply plugging in numbers and rolling dice. That market segment has already been largely lost to the likes of EverQuest and Diablo, because computers can plug in numbers and generate random results better than any pen-and-pencil system can. > It's much easier to find a near > approximation in the latter case and alter than it is to bolt on the > needed complexity and have any hope of it interrelating with other > parts of the game system right in the former. Give an example of the kind of complexity you're talking about, and I'll give an example of how a simpler system could handle the same problem better. -- Dan ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 83 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 03:58:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.36 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 955598281 208.153.245.36 (Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:58:01 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:58:01 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3637 On 13 Apr 2000 00:58:34 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >> None the less, those can still involve complexities if that's what >> you're looking for (someone who is going to focus his game on a lot of >> outdoor survival sitautions for example) and he either is going to >> have those rules or have to improvise with great frequency. > >Not "with great frequency" unless the players insist on >exacting detail in a wide range of unrelated areas on a >regular basis. A GM in that situation is stuck doing It's not just the player who may be interested in the detail. Contrary to your presumtion, a GM can care about those details too. And wilderness survival is nothing but a large range of unrelated situations, at least if you're travelling much. >boatloads of work regardless of what system he's using. Not if the system already has most of the work laid out for him, and he just has to pick from a menu of options. >He is _still_, in my experience, better off adding onto >a simple system instead of hoping a complex system has >what he needs. Take typical "complex systems" such as >AD&D, Rolemaster, or GURPS -- there may well be a rule >for what you need, but often as not it is a broken rule >and you're better off creating a rule of your own. And I disagree with this; if you pick a proper system in the first place, the broken rules should be few and far between, and even if it is, if it's already present you can replace it easier than you could do one from the ground up because the surrounding game structure implies how it should be set up, if not the precise numbers. > >Another important point here: anything that can be >expressed as a formal rule can be handled better by a >computer than it can be by a human. Any company wishing To a point. You're still going to have to have a human do the input so the computer knows the situation. >to release a complicated pen-and-pencial game in this >day and age should have its collective head examined; >it is entering into competition with the computer >RPG/simulation/strategy market, which can do everything >a pen-and-pencil sim can do faster, better, and with >as much human input. Except portability and the fact that in the case of the pen and paper game the GM can alter the model if need be to his specific situation where in the computer game all he can do is deal with the model as presented. Assuming it even permits other things that belong in the game. The fact that I don't know of a single computer game that I consider a true RPG doesn't help. Now could someone produce a computerized adjuct that could handle this better than a human alone if set up properly? Sure. But I don't know of one out there I consider set up properly. > >The areas in which RPGs have an edge -- the ONLY areas in >which RPGs have an edge -- over computer games is in >human interaction and imagination. The former is rapidly >becoming a non-issue; in a few years the sole appeal of >RPGs to newcomers will be the imagination side of things. I don't know why you consider the former a non-issue. In practical terms it's still an issue for an awful lot of people. >In my experience game designers seldom do a good job >providing simulationist rules, unless the game is built >specifically towards that area of simulation. AD&D, >Rolemaster, and RuneQuest, for all that they are set in >"heroic fantasy" worlds, have rules for medieval society >life that ange from "horribly broken" to "mostly >nonexistant". You really are better off junking everything >and simply reading a book on the subject. And I've had other experiences. In addition, even when I've had to do the work, the fact there was a general systemic structure designed to support detail (even if it was in other places than I was working) has usually saved me an enormous amount of design time. ###### From: Wayne Shaw Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <+fPzOH5v9qgYIhlqrC1GbtOTMK1F@4ax.com> <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <8d2l8k$eal$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <=OD0OHvQH8s7hVlajJCPaYEDDp7t@4ax.com> <8d2r1b$v9i$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <=w71OLp20FTz5QOQHFe9WUIQJR=+@4ax.com> <8d36l8$7mr$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 59 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 04:05:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.153.245.36 X-Trace: news2.randori.com 955598754 208.153.245.36 (Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:05:54 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:05:54 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.randori.com!news2.randori.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3675 On 13 Apr 2000 01:07:52 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >Unless you decide simply to accept the rules as-is, warts and >all, you end up going through them looking for weaknesses, >patching exploitable areas, junking some parts, and inventing >others. Unless the system starts off being almost exactly what >you want chances are you'd save time either making something >up on your own, or simply appropriating part of a game that >DOES handle things correctly. Not in my experience. I've never found that having a model already present didn't help, even if the model was deficient in some areas. Otherwise you end up having to evaluate the whole game's approach to something and how it should interrelate to other pieces, often in ways the designers never thought you'd even try to do. > >And note that even when a game handles X correctly, there is >no guarantee it handles Y correctly. It is better to have >a simple underlying system and add X and Y modules should >they turn out to be necessary. > Repeating that doesn't make it true. Often having a simple underlaying system simply makes it hard to express the final results in the detail you need without bolting on a lot of superstructure that adds up to designing half a new game in the process. >>> You're wrong. My point is that a complicated system that >>> yields bad results is inferior to a simple system that >>> yields results which are at least as accurate. Very few >>> people enjoy complicated rules for their own sake. > >> And many people find a system to simple to handle the detail >> level they need far more useless than a complex system that >> at least has the level of fineness they need. > >There is no such thing as "too simple to handle the detail >level you need" unless the players are simply plugging in >numbers and rolling dice. That market segment has already >been largely lost to the likes of EverQuest and Diablo, >because computers can plug in numbers and generate random >results better than any pen-and-pencil system can. But not in conjunction with roleplaying it can't. Apparently you've never seen a fusion of the two approaches, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. And yes, there are systems too coarse to handle the detail level required in some cases. >Give an example of the kind of complexity you're talking >about, and I'll give an example of how a simpler system >could handle the same problem better. I don't see the point in it, since you've shown every sign of not accepting the criteria I'm using for the output. You'll just try to tell me the level of detail I'm requiring "isn't needed" when in some cases, yes it is. ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 13 Apr 2000 05:53:16 GMT References: <38F47C51.B1D23BF6@idirect.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000413015316.15421.00001246@ng-cm1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3588 Richard Pace wrote: >Justin Bacon wrote: > >> Richard Pace wrote: >> >Let's say there are four brand spanking new games published a year -- that's four >> >completely new systems as well so I'm not counting the pending release of WW's >> >Coprophage: The Excrement using the Storyteller system. Let's say two of those >> >decide they're better off using an OGL system -- that's two LESS competing >> >systems that year. >> >> "Reducing the number of competing systems" and "reducing the number of *new* >> competing systems" are not synonymous. > >So? Adding the *new* is exclusive. "Reducing the number of competing >systems" isn't. Is English not your primary language? Let's say there are X systems extant. So long as no existing systems cease publication the number of competing systems will *not* decrease -- i.e., the number of systems will not become less than X. >Do I need to dredge up a list of the games that went away in the last five >years? Go for it. If you can come up with a significant list of major games, I'll be surprised. T4 springs to mind, but not much else. >Hell, Unknown Armies changed publishers before >it was even finished. So what? What connection does this have to do with competing systems and/or decreasing the number of competing systems? >Hell, just two years ago AD&D almost went the way of the dodo -- so any belief of >gaming longevity is based on a very few games in comparison to the hundreds >that have disappeared.. Something which had almost nothing to do with sales of the AD&D system -- or the fact that AD&D had to compete with other systems. So what's your point? Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 13 Apr 2000 05:54:46 GMT References: <38F5254A.52699221@idirect.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000413015446.15421.00001247@ng-cm1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3594 Richard wrote: >Considering that the OGL doesn't really exist yet, everything is in the >hypothetical future. I have, however, been contacted by one games >designer who has decided to utilize the OGL (when it's made official) >for his already in-development game. In essence, the OGL has already >possibly reduced the proliferation of of yet another system. But still hasn't decreased the number of competing systems -- which is what Dancey said was his goal. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 13 Apr 2000 08:30:30 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 175 Message-ID: <8d40j6$rlg$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.69 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3683 Wayne Shaw writes: >On 13 Apr 2000 00:58:34 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >>> None the less, those can still involve complexities if that's what >>> you're looking for (someone who is going to focus his game on a lot of >>> outdoor survival sitautions for example) and he either is going to >>> have those rules or have to improvise with great frequency. >>Not "with great frequency" unless the players insist on >>exacting detail in a wide range of unrelated areas on a >>regular basis. A GM in that situation is stuck doing > It's not just the player who may be interested in the detail. > Contrary to your presumtion, a GM can care about those details too. He doesn't need system-specific rules to handle them. He's the GM; he can do whatever he wants. He can use whatever rules he feels like. He doesn't even have to explain them to the players; players only need to know the rules which effect them. > And wilderness survival is nothing but a large range of unrelated > situations, at least if you're travelling much. Wilderness survival is a small range of interrelated areas: protection from the elements, location of potable water, and available local food supplies, mainly. The details cane be vague or specific depending on GM or player preference, but the _rules_ needed can be very simple. >> boatloads of work regardless of what system he's using. >N ot if the system already has most of the work laid out for him, Unless somebody's invented a complex RPG system that handles outdoor survival competently -- which they haven't -- the GM's work is not being handled for him by the system. He is merely handing the results of some table or chart to the players regardless of whether or not they make sense (in which case he's going to lose his players to a video game someday soon) or he begins fudging results -- and a system that requires fudging is a system worth discarding. >> He is _still_, in my experience, better off adding onto >> a simple system instead of hoping a complex system has >> what he needs. Take typical "complex systems" such as >> AD&D, Rolemaster, or GURPS -- there may well be a rule >> for what you need, but often as not it is a broken rule >> and you're better off creating a rule of your own. > And I disagree with this; if you pick a proper system in > the first place, the broken rules should be few and far > between, Which system do you have in mind, here? > and even if it is, if it's already present you can replace > it easier than you could do one from the ground up because > the surrounding game structure implies how it should be > set up, if not the precise numbers. A simple system implies how new rules should be added, first of all. Secondly, modifying a complex system requires players to (a) forget what they know and (b) learn something new, while adding to a simple system merely requires (b). Thirdly, it takes no more time to invent a new rule than it does to modify an existing one. >> Another important point here: anything that can be >> expressed as a formal rule can be handled better by a >> computer than it can be by a human. Any company wishing > To a point. No -- to any extent. Computer only fall behind humans when the situation calls for reasoning that cannot be expressed as a formal system. > You're still going to have to have a human do the input > so the computer knows the situation. Yes, but there are thousands of people out there making the games and scenarios _for_ you. Self-designed scenarios either take more or less time on computer than on paper, but it is only "more" when the system is badly designed. >> to release a complicated pen-and-pencial game in this >> day and age should have its collective head examined; >> it is entering into competition with the computer >> RPG/simulation/strategy market, which can do everything >> a pen-and-pencil sim can do faster, better, and with >> as much human input. > Except portability Who here doesn't have a computer in the house they game in? Who here doesn't expect that there will be one in that house in another five or ten years? > and the fact that in the case of the pen and paper > game the GM can alter the model if need be to his > specific situation Plenty of sims allow for extensive modification of both the scenario and the rules governing it. The trend towards modifyable games gains momentum with each passing year. > where in the computer game all he can do is deal with > the model as presented. That was true in 1985. It is not true today. > Assuming it even permits other things that belong in the > game. If the computer simulation can't handle what you need, you make something up. This is EXACTLY what must be done in a pen-and-pencil game. The difference is that the pen-and-pencil game takes thousands of times longer to yield the same sort of results you can get from the sim in areas the system _can_ handle. > The fact that I don't know of a single computer game that I > consider a true RPG doesn't help. Running a barony or wandering the wilderness based on what a set of charts tell you isn't "roleplaying" either, so I fail to see your point. When actual human-to-human interaction is required, the GM handles it. When your concern is accurate prices for wheat futures, the computer handles it. That aside, roleplaying mushes are true computer RPGs. >> The areas in which RPGs have an edge -- the ONLY areas in >> which RPGs have an edge -- over computer games is in >> human interaction and imagination. The former is rapidly >> becoming a non-issue; in a few years the sole appeal of >> RPGs to newcomers will be the imagination side of things. > I don't know why you consider the former a non-issue. Because realtime video and audio capture virtually all of the human interaction of a roleplaying session -- and, on top of that, can give you access to every gamer in the world who has a computer. Furthermore the potential for things like voice alteration and 3d character models for immersion and suspension of disbelief is astounding. > In practical terms it's still an issue for an awful lot > of people. A hundred years ago horse feed was an issue for an awful lot of people. The strategy game industry is already basically dead as a doornail because of computers. The only things that have spared roleplaying games thus far have been (a) the lack of convenient human interaction and (b) the computer's lack of imagination. >> In my experience game designers seldom do a good job >> providing simulationist rules, unless the game is built >> specifically towards that area of simulation. AD&D, >> Rolemaster, and RuneQuest, for all that they are set in >> "heroic fantasy" worlds, have rules for medieval society >> life that range from "horribly broken" to "mostly >> nonexistant". You really are better off junking everything >> and simply reading a book on the subject. > And I've had other experiences. In addition, even when I've had to do > the work, the fact there was a general systemic structure designed to > support detail (even if it was in other places than I was working) has > usually saved me an enormous amount of design time. A generic system structure designed to support detail IS a simple system. -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 13 Apr 2000 08:33:01 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8d40nt$om7$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> References: <38F5254A.52699221@idirect.com> <20000413015446.15421.00001247@ng-cm1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.69 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3686 triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) writes: >Richard wrote: >>Considering that the OGL doesn't really exist yet, everything is in the >>hypothetical future. I have, however, been contacted by one games >>designer who has decided to utilize the OGL (when it's made official) >>for his already in-development game. In essence, the OGL has already >>possibly reduced the proliferation of of yet another system. > But still hasn't decreased the number of competing systems -- > which is what Dancey said was his goal. You can't make that statement until you know how many of the existing competitors go belly-up this year. If five new games come out this year and five old games cease publication, and three of the five new ones use OGL, the number of competing systems is reduced by three -- because of OGL. -- Dan ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 13 Apr 2000 10:21:31 GMT References: <8d40nt$om7$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000413062131.27326.00000006@ng-fp1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3592 Dan Bongard wrote: >You can't make that statement until you know how many of the >existing competitors go belly-up this year. If five new games >come out this year and five old games cease publication, >and three of the five new ones use OGL, the number of >competing systems is reduced by three -- because of OGL. A thread recap for you: Richard(*) claimed that Ryan's goal could be achieved without any current systems ceasing publication. I asked him how, exactly, this mathematical impossibility was going to be made possible. Richard has since been attempting to defend the indefensible over and over and over again. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com (*) At least, I'm pretty sure it was Richard. I won't swear to it, though. ###### X-Originating-Host: 194.66.208.11 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 19 From: Pete Darby Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <0288a64a.eaa6fa2e@usw-ex0102-084.remarq.com> References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <8d40j6$rlg$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> Bytes: 662 X-Wren-Trace: eBA1HRwFQghDQAEMEG8VGBABGTUXHVcAGhMLXRoLBBBOTwRfSAZLTExJWkRP Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 05:44:16 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.84 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon2 955629578 10.0.2.84 (Thu, 13 Apr 2000 05:39:38 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 05:39:38 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon2.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3725 Woah there! "A system that requires fudging is a system that's worth discarding." In other words, every system designed is worth discarding, since they all require fudging at some time or other. You're getting close to my golden rule of game design here; If It Can't Be Broken, It Can't Be Playable. Go ahead, find me an unbreakable, unfudgeworthy system. Then tell me who's playing it. Pete Darby "Shall I morn your decline with some Thunderbird wine And a black hankerchief?" - Ian Dury * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: wraith@powerup.com.au (The Wraith) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: <38f5c2e0.432947605@news.ozemail.com.au> References: <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <+fPzOH5v9qgYIhlqrC1GbtOTMK1F@4ax.com> <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <8d2l8k$eal$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <=OD0OHvQH8s7hVlajJCPaYEDDp7t@4ax.com> <8d2r1b$v9i$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: ts56077.powerup.com.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 955630770 203.147.173.77 (Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:59:30 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:59:30 EST Organization: OzEmail Pty Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:56:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3648 On 12 Apr 2000 21:49:31 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >Wayne Shaw writes: > >> You can get a model exact enough for the purposes you're >> using it, however. > >You can get a model that is exact to whatever degree the game >designers (a) felt like making it and (b) were competent to >make it. Which will be exact enough for the purposes for which you are using it - otherwise, you wouldn't be using that system at all. >You're wrong. My point is that a complicated system that >yields bad results is inferior to a simple system that >yields results which are at least as accurate. Very few >people enjoy complicated rules for their own sake. A simple system that yields no results detailed enough to be usable is inferior to a complicated system that yields accurate results. So what's your point? A complicated system can be badly designed, and a simple system can be badly designed, and yes, the badly designed system will operate only poorly, if at all. Few people enjoy *any* rules for their own sake. The rules used need to serve the specific purpose desired by the gaming group, and in some cases that means a simple system, and in others it doesn't. -- Now, by popular demand, a new .sig! I still can't think of anything witty to say, though. The Wraith ###### From: wraith@powerup.com.au (The Wraith) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: <38f5c67e.433873056@news.ozemail.com.au> References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <8d40j6$rlg$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: ts56077.powerup.com.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 955631632 203.147.173.77 (Thu, 13 Apr 2000 23:13:52 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 23:13:52 EST Organization: OzEmail Pty Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:10:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3652 On 13 Apr 2000 08:30:30 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >Wayne Shaw writes: > >> It's not just the player who may be interested in the detail. >> Contrary to your presumtion, a GM can care about those details too. > >He doesn't need system-specific rules to handle them. He's the >GM; he can do whatever he wants. He can use whatever rules he >feels like. Including use a detailed system. You keep telling us that a detailed system is not *needed*. Well, no, it's not needed. However, it may be desired, for the detail that it produces in its results. The fact that you don't desire a system to produce that sort of detail does not mean that nobody else does. -- Now, by popular demand, a new .sig! I still can't think of anything witty to say, though. The Wraith ###### From: craigo@dmtcorp.com (Ichabod) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <+fPzOH5v9qgYIhlqrC1GbtOTMK1F@4ax.com> <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <8d2l8k$eal$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d2qi1$hu7$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Lines: 35 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:10:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.174.13.181 X-Complaints-To: abuse@adelphia.net X-Trace: news1.news.adelphia.net 955638633 216.174.13.181 (Thu, 13 Apr 2000 11:10:33 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 11:10:33 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.axxsys.net!router1.news.adelphia.net!news.hyperioncom.net!news1.news.adelphia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3511 In article <8d2qi1$hu7$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > craigo@dmtcorp.com (Ichabod) writes: > > >In article <8d2l8k$eal$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com > >(Dan Bongard) wrote: > > >> Rolemaster is not inherently more detailed than Feng Shui; > >> Rolemaster merely determines the detail randomly, whereas > >> Feng Shui determines the detail through player/GM consensus. > >> It would be a simple matter to simply roll on a Rolemaster > >> crit table if you wanted some flavor-text to go with > >> your Feng Shui to-hit results. > > >Rolemaster is inherently more detailed than Feng Shui. > >A given session of Rolemaster isn't, but the rules are. > > The end results are what matter. If the visibile complexity > of two games aren't distinguishable, the one which requires > less effort and fewer rules to achieve the same results is > the one you want to be using. > That assumes that the players are "opaque." They're not, the effort they are making is visible to all. The visible complexity *is* the rules. And note that a system with fewer rules requires *more* effort, as the GM (and sometimes the players) have to generate the detail that is lacking from the rules. The initial effort will be less, as the rules are easier to learn, but the effort during play (which is where it really matters) will be greater. -- Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 13 Apr 2000 18:40:45 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8d54bd$j7o$6@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhalb.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 955651245 19704 149.174.240.237 (13 Apr 2000 18:40:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Apr 2000 18:40:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3572 Dan Bongard wrote: > This strikes me as being besides the point -- you never need > to make up rules for something like running a barony "on the > fly". If a player is going to be in a position to do something > like that, you'll know in advance. The kind of rules you > need to make up on the fly are things like "how far can I > jump?" and "how many merchants are there in this town". Rules > for those sorts of things can be system-independent. I see your picture of running a barony in game, the Baron sits at his chair his player and the GM talk a bit and a roll is made for that month's affairs. I see the opposite where EACH and EVERY detail is worked out and settle through player/GM discussion. It fails in between those extremes, where dice and details are intermixed and rules to emulate a lot of events are being used. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 13 Apr 2000 19:13:41 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 9 Message-ID: <8d5695$l9i$2@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <38F5254A.52699221@idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhaka.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 955653221 21810 149.174.242.213 (13 Apr 2000 19:13:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Apr 2000 19:13:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3560 Richard Pace wrote: >> So why precisely did YOU make the comparison then? When >> asked about existing games, you answered 'new games'. > Because the OGL is more likely to effect the development of new > games. Which STILL has nothing to do with the original question, which concerned eliminating *existing* games. From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 13 Apr 2000 19:13:41 GMT Organization: Me, Myself & I Lines: 9 Message-ID: <8d5695$l9i$2@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <38F5254A.52699221@idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhaka.production.compuserve.com X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 955653221 21810 149.174.242.213 (13 Apr 2000 19:13:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Apr 2000 19:13:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3560 Richard Pace wrote: >> So why precisely did YOU make the comparison then? When >> asked about existing games, you answered 'new games'. > Because the OGL is more likely to effect the development of new > games. Which STILL has nothing to do with the original question, which concerned eliminating *existing* games. ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 13 Apr 2000 21:02:01 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 24 Message-ID: <8d5ck9$37$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <8d40j6$rlg$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <0288a64a.eaa6fa2e@usw-ex0102-084.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.71 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3647 Pete Darby writes: >Woah there! >"A system that requires fudging is a system that's worth >discarding." I don't remember if those were my words or not -- is there some reason you didn't directly quote them? My recollection is that I said "regularly requires", not just "requires". > In other words, every system designed is worth discarding, > since they all require fudging at some time or other. No, actually, not all systems require you to ignore results because the results produced by the system fail to mesh with the reality of the game. > Go ahead, find me an unbreakable, unfudgeworthy system. > Then tell me who's playing it. Over the Edge. I have no idea who's playing it, though. :) -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 13 Apr 2000 21:07:28 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 31 Message-ID: <8d5cug$nd9$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <8d40j6$rlg$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <38f5c67e.433873056@news.ozemail.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.71 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3691 wraith@powerup.com.au (The Wraith) writes: >On 13 Apr 2000 08:30:30 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >>Wayne Shaw writes: >> >>> It's not just the player who may be interested in the detail. >>> Contrary to your presumtion, a GM can care about those details too. >> >> He doesn't need system-specific rules to handle them. He's the >> GM; he can do whatever he wants. He can use whatever rules he >> feels like. > Including use a detailed system. You're stretching definitions beyond the breaking point. If you mean "use a detailed system, like Rolemaster" you are wrong inasmuch as it would be foolish for the GM to adopt and entire clunky system just to get the one rule he needs. If you mean "take chart X.27.b.5 from Rolemaster and use it to generate random wilderness events" or "use the AD&D World Builder's Guide to determine number of blacksmiths in this town" you are correct, however. > You keep telling us that a detailed system is not *needed*. > Well, no, it's not needed. However, it may be desired, for > the detail that it produces in its results. And adding complexity to a simple system is easier than simplifying a complex system. -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 13 Apr 2000 21:15:50 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 52 Message-ID: <8d5de6$2gb$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <38F276D4.93CA5628@idirect.com> <38F32E84.BEC7E958@idirect.com> <38F3B0F9.4449776D@idirect.com> <8d0p5k$1l5$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <+fPzOH5v9qgYIhlqrC1GbtOTMK1F@4ax.com> <8d1dvh$84a$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <8d2l8k$eal$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d2qi1$hu NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.71 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3676 craigo@dmtcorp.com (Ichabod) writes: > Dan Bongard wrote: >> craigo@dmtcorp.com (Ichabod) writes: >>>(Dan Bongard) wrote: >>>> Rolemaster is not inherently more detailed than Feng Shui; >>>> Rolemaster merely determines the detail randomly, whereas >>>> Feng Shui determines the detail through player/GM consensus. >>>> It would be a simple matter to simply roll on a Rolemaster >>>> crit table if you wanted some flavor-text to go with >>>> your Feng Shui to-hit results. >>> Rolemaster is inherently more detailed than Feng Shui. >>> A given session of Rolemaster isn't, but the rules are. >> The end results are what matter. If the visibile complexity >> of two games aren't distinguishable, the one which requires >> less effort and fewer rules to achieve the same results is >> the one you want to be using. > That assumes that the players are "opaque." They're not, > the effort they are making is visible to all. The > visible complexity *is* the rules. The visible complexity "*is* the rules" only to those players who prefer flipping through a rulebook to actually playing the game. That end of the hobby is dying rapidly, thanks to computers. > And note that a system with fewer rules requires *more* > effort, as the GM (and sometimes the players) have to > generate the detail that is lacking from the rules. It takes less effort to say "five" than it does to consult table X.5.7: "Number of Skilled Tradesmen per Village", roll 2d6, add the +1 bonus for large towns, cross-index, and say "seven". Neither answer is more "accurate", but the former takes less time and effort. > The initial effort will be less, as the rules are easier > to learn, but the effort during play (which is where it > really matters) will be greater. The easiest games to GM are ones like Feng Shui and Over the Edge -- simple games. Complex games like Rolemaster are a nightmare. The simplest tasks, such as creating a new NPC, require an hour of effort unless you just fudge everything -- and supposedly "exciting" events like combat get bogged down in cross-referencing two or three different charts to get a result. -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 13 Apr 2000 21:19:52 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8d5dlo$7pe$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d54bd$j7o$6@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.71 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3690 SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> writes: >Dan Bongard wrote: >> This strikes me as being besides the point -- you never need >> to make up rules for something like running a barony "on the >> fly". If a player is going to be in a position to do something >> like that, you'll know in advance. The kind of rules you >> need to make up on the fly are things like "how far can I >> jump?" and "how many merchants are there in this town". Rules >> for those sorts of things can be system-independent. > I see your picture of running a barony in game, the Baron sits >at his chair his player and the GM talk a bit and a roll is made >for that month's affairs. > I see the opposite where EACH and EVERY detail is worked out > and settle through player/GM discussion. Your assumption is mistake; I was not presuming a single skill-roll for resolution. That is certainly one possibility, but my statement applies to your scenario as well. Regardless of where you fall along the spectrum between these, however, there is no need for system-specific rules. There is no point in having fixed rules at all, IMO, but if you must have fixed rules simply pick and choose. -- Dan ###### Message-ID: <38F68BD5.456D49AF@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38F5254A.52699221@idirect.com> <20000413015446.15421.00001247@ng-cm1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 00:02:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.38.111 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 955670550 216.154.38.111 (Thu, 13 Apr 2000 20:02:30 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 20:02:30 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3498 Justin Bacon wrote: > But still hasn't decreased the number of competing systems -- which is what > Dancey said was his goal. > > Justin Bacon > triad@prairie.lakes.com From the interview: "The logical conclusion says that reducing the "cost" to other people to publishing and supporting the core D&D game to zero should eventually drive support for all other game systems to the lowest level possible in the market, create customer resistance to the introduction of new systems, and the result of all that "support" redirected to the D&D game will be to steadily increase the number of people who play D&D, thus driving sales of the core books." It appears his goal is more to reduce the proliferation of new competing systems not the elimination of existing games. I'm pretty sure the idea that Dancey's goal is reducing the actual existing systems is more likely internet paranoia -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### Message-ID: <38F6913C.A9DF4EC7@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38F47C51.B1D23BF6@idirect.com> <20000413015316.15421.00001246@ng-cm1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 62 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 00:25:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.4.227 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 955671935 216.154.4.227 (Thu, 13 Apr 2000 20:25:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 20:25:35 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3501 Justin Bacon wrote: > Richard Pace wrote: > >Justin Bacon wrote: > > >> "Reducing the number of competing systems" and "reducing the number of *new* > >> competing systems" are not synonymous. > > > >So? Adding the *new* is exclusive. "Reducing the number of competing > >systems" isn't. > > Is English not your primary language? The fabricated quote is unqualified, it neither mentions current or potential systems -- within the context of the interview being continually misrepresented in this thread it's obvious he was referring to creating resistance to new systems. > Let's say there are X systems extant. So long as no existing systems cease > publication the number of competing systems will *not* decrease -- i.e., the > number of systems will not become less than X. So, after all these posts you don't get that I'm talking about the reduction of the proliferation of new systems. > >Do I need to dredge up a list of the games that went away in the last five > >years? > > Go for it. If you can come up with a significant list of major games, I'll be > surprised. T4 springs to mind, but not much else. Significant? It's quite hard to list anything within this hobby as being significant. The Babylon Project, RuneQuest, Earthdawn, Alternity, Noir, Talislanta, Star Wars, and MERP off the top of my head. I'm not sure about Space 1889, Castle Falkenstien, Kult or The Whispering Vault. Counting systems that have had to change publishers and therefore only had a short period of being "away" Feng Shui, Ars Magica, Everway, Pendragon, AD&D, Usagi Yojimbo and Legend of the 5 Rings. Add to that the list of games publishers waffling between publishing and filing for bankruptcy and you have a very unstable market. > > > >Hell, Unknown Armies changed publishers before > >it was even finished. > > So what? What connection does this have to do with competing systems and/or > decreasing the number of competing systems? It was to demonstrate the instability in the market. An instability that, in part, could be blamed on the resistance to new systems. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### Message-ID: <38F692AD.B9031685@idirect.com> From: Richard Pace X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38F5254A.52699221@idirect.com> <20000413015446.15421.00001247@ng-cm1.aol.com> <8d40nt$om7$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 00:31:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.154.4.227 X-Complaints-To: abuse@idirect.com X-Trace: quark.idirect.com 955672301 216.154.4.227 (Thu, 13 Apr 2000 20:31:41 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 20:31:41 EDT Organization: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!CensurBot.NetScum.Dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!brick.direct.ca!quark.idirect.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3497 Colin Smith wrote: > > Eh? No. The OGL is just the license used. It isn't the game system. > In most of these threads OGL has become shorthand for D20 OGL while D20 has become shorthand for the D20STML. Richard -- I've added over twenty more images of my artwork to my gallery for your viewing pleasure! - http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/ ###### From: BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au (Brett Evill) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 14 Apr 2000 05:12:56 GMT Organization: Bureau of Transport Economics Lines: 38 Message-ID: <8d69co$72362@cook.dotrs.gov.au> References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.120.132.197 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!cook.dotrs.gov.au!newsmaster Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3556 In article <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com>, Justin Bacon wrote... > >Richard Pace wrote: >>his hope >>seems more in line with the reduction of competing systems > >[snip] > >>> That pretty much DOES mean current existing alternate game systems >>> have to cease being published. >> >>No, it doesn't. > >How do you reduce the number of competing systems, without having some of the >existing competing systems cease publication? We have an analogous terminological problem in discussions of greenhouse gas emissions abatement measures. Although literally a 'reduction in greenhouse gas emissions' can only mean that less greenhouse gas will be emitted in the future than is at present, some people discussing the issue insist on referring to a reduction in the expected growth in emissions as a reduction in emissions. Their point is, apparently, that a measure may have reduced the AD 2005 emissions from what they *would have been*, even though they might still be greater than the AD 2000 emissions. This is lax and imprecise I agree, but it is the way that some people express themselves. Let's try to take people's eaning, even when it is badly expressed, rather than take them to task for semantic and epistemological failings. Regards, -- Brett Evill (The opinions expressed above are not those of the Bureau of Transport Economics, the Federal Department of Transport and Regional Services, or the Australian Commonwealth Government.) ###### X-Originating-Host: 194.66.208.11 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 55 From: Pete Darby Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Message-ID: <0096f1f8.0d3fb481@usw-ex0102-084.remarq.com> References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <8d40j6$rlg$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <0288a64a.eaa6fa2e@usw-ex0102-084.remarq.com> <8d5ck9$37$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> Bytes: 1822 X-Wren-Trace: eIWgiImQ153W1ZSZhfqAjYWUjKCCiMKVj4aeyI+ekYXb2pHK3ZPe2dncz9Ha Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:33:13 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.84 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon2 955722517 10.0.2.84 (Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:28:37 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:28:37 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon2.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3697 In article <8d5ck9$37$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >Pete Darby writes: > >>Woah there! > >>"A system that requires fudging is a system that's worth >>discarding." > >I don't remember if those were my words or not -- is there >some reason you didn't directly quote them? My recollection >is that I said "regularly requires", not just "requires". > Nah, you said requires, but your clarificaiton makes more sense. I didn't quote because I only wanted to pick up on this one point; your original posting was huge, and life's too short to use the Remarq system to hack about with something that big. >> In other words, every system designed is worth discarding, >> since they all require fudging at some time or other. > >No, actually, not all systems require you to ignore results >because the results produced by the system fail to mesh with >the reality of the game. > Hmmm... our experiences differ here, then. At least once in each session I've run or played in, there's been a "credibility gap" which required "creative interpretation" of the rules, whatever they be. >> Go ahead, find me an unbreakable, unfudgeworthy system. >> Then tell me who's playing it. > >Over the Edge. I have no idea who's playing it, though. :) > Ah, the perfect system being one where the rules are virtually non-existent! Doesn't that make every result a fudge? Or are we working on diferent interpretations of the phrase "fudge"? >-- Dan > > Pete Darby "Shall I morn your decline with some Thunderbird wine And a black hankerchief?" - Ian Dury * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: craigo@dmtcorp.com (Ichabod) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: References: <38F5254A.52699221@idirect.com> <20000413015446.15421.00001247@ng-cm1.aol.com> <38F68BD5.456D49AF@idirect.com> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Lines: 36 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 14:51:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.174.13.181 X-Complaints-To: abuse@adelphia.net X-Trace: news1.news.adelphia.net 955723875 216.174.13.181 (Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:51:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:51:15 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!router1.news.adelphia.net!news.hyperioncom.net!news1.news.adelphia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3514 In article <38F68BD5.456D49AF@idirect.com>, Richard Pace wrote: > Justin Bacon wrote: > > > But still hasn't decreased the number of competing systems -- which is what > > Dancey said was his goal. > > > > Justin Bacon > > triad@prairie.lakes.com > > From the interview: > "The logical conclusion says that reducing the "cost" to other people to > publishing and supporting the core D&D game to zero should eventually drive > support for all other game systems to the lowest level possible in the market, > create customer resistance to the introduction of new systems, and the result > of all that "support" redirected to the D&D game will be to steadily increase > the number of people who play D&D, thus driving sales of the core books." > > It appears his goal is more to reduce the proliferation of new competing > systems not the elimination of existing games. > > I'm pretty sure the idea that Dancey's goal is reducing the actual existing > systems is more likely internet paranoia For me, it comes from his comments about using the large print runs to put more value into 3E. This would make other systems unable to compete, because they wouldn't have equivalent "value added." Basically, using WotC's money and the economies of scale to make all other systems non-competetive, and therefore have them go out of business. He didn't explicitly state the last part (I believe), but it logically follows from the other stuff he said about value added. -- Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien ###### From: wraith@powerup.com.au (The Wraith) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: <38f73fe2.530485407@news.ozemail.com.au> References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <8d40j6$rlg$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <38f5c67e.433873056@news.ozemail.com.au> <8d5cug$nd9$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 48 NNTP-Posting-Host: ts51018.powerup.com.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 955728251 203.147.168.18 (Sat, 15 Apr 2000 02:04:11 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 02:04:11 EST Organization: OzEmail Pty Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 16:01:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3650 On 13 Apr 2000 21:07:28 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >wraith@powerup.com.au (The Wraith) writes: > >>On 13 Apr 2000 08:30:30 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >>>Wayne Shaw writes: >>> >>>> It's not just the player who may be interested in the detail. >>>> Contrary to your presumtion, a GM can care about those details too. >>> >>> He doesn't need system-specific rules to handle them. He's the >>> GM; he can do whatever he wants. He can use whatever rules he >>> feels like. > >> Including use a detailed system. > >You're stretching definitions beyond the breaking point. If >you mean "use a detailed system, like Rolemaster" you are >wrong inasmuch as it would be foolish for the GM to adopt and >entire clunky system just to get the one rule he needs. Who said he would use it *only* for that one rule? The GM should take *all* of his requirements into account when selecting a system. In some cases, that assessment leads to the adoption of a detailed system. >> You keep telling us that a detailed system is not *needed*. >> Well, no, it's not needed. However, it may be desired, for >> the detail that it produces in its results. > >And adding complexity to a simple system is easier than >simplifying a complex system. Firstly, only you find this so. Others have discovered the opposite to be true in their cases. Secondly, using a complex system which requires few or no modifications to get the desired results is easier than using a simple system that requires extensive modifications to get the desired result. Only if the more complex system is the most suitable system in the first place should it be used. Anything else is just choosing the wrong system. -- Now, by popular demand, a new .sig! I still can't think of anything witty to say, though. The Wraith ###### From: wraith@powerup.com.au (The Wraith) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Message-ID: <38f7413a.530829762@news.ozemail.com.au> References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <8d69co$72362@cook.dotrs.gov.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ts51018.powerup.com.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 955728409 203.147.168.18 (Sat, 15 Apr 2000 02:06:49 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 02:06:49 EST Organization: OzEmail Pty Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 16:03:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3631 On 14 Apr 2000 05:12:56 GMT, BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au (Brett Evill) wrote: > >Let's try to take people's eaning, even when it is badly expressed, That strikes me as an extremely ironic line. -- Now, by popular demand, a new .sig! I still can't think of anything witty to say, though. The Wraith ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 14 Apr 2000 21:22:54 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8d827e$b3r$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> References: <38F5254A.52699221@idirect.com> <20000413015446.15421.00001247@ng-cm1.aol.com> <8d40nt$om7$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.72 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3834 colin@Yelm.freeserve.co.uk (Colin Smith) writes: >On 13 Apr 2000 08:33:01 GMT, Dan Bongard wrote: >>triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) writes: >> >>>Richard wrote: >>>>Considering that the OGL doesn't really exist yet, everything is in the >>>>hypothetical future. I have, however, been contacted by one games >>>>designer who has decided to utilize the OGL (when it's made official) >>>>for his already in-development game. In essence, the OGL has already >>>>possibly reduced the proliferation of of yet another system. >> >>> But still hasn't decreased the number of competing systems -- >>> which is what Dancey said was his goal. >> >>You can't make that statement until you know how many of the >>existing competitors go belly-up this year. If five new games >>come out this year and five old games cease publication, >>and three of the five new ones use OGL, the number of >>competing systems is reduced by three -- because of OGL. > Eh? No. The OGL is just the license used. It isn't the game system. Sorry for being unclear -- "people who use your system under OGL", not "people who use OGL". The point is moot anyway, since apparently the original poster had the number of competing systems could be reduced without any systems ceasing publication. :) -- Dan ###### From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 15 Apr 2000 00:26:20 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8d8cvc$6lb$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <8d40j6$rlg$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <0288a64a.eaa6fa2e@usw-ex0102-084.remarq.com> <8d5ck9$37$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <0096f1f8.0d3fb481@usw-ex0102-084.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.65 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!208.184.7.66!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!dbongard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3842 Pete Darby writes: >dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: >>Pete Darby writes: >>> In other words, every system designed is worth discarding, >>> since they all require fudging at some time or other. >>No, actually, not all systems require you to ignore results >>because the results produced by the system fail to mesh with >>the reality of the game. > Hmmm... our experiences differ here, then. At least once in each > session I've run or played in, there's been a "credibility gap" > which required "creative interpretation" of the rules, whatever > they be. Every (non-diceless) system I've seen sometimes gives results I don't _want_... but I've seen plenty that very seldom give results which are bogus within the game context. >>> Go ahead, find me an unbreakable, unfudgeworthy system. >>> Then tell me who's playing it. >> Over the Edge. I have no idea who's playing it, though. :) > Ah, the perfect system being one where the rules are virtually > non-existent! Doesn't that make every result a fudge? A "fudge", as I'm using the term, is when you ignore what the system tells you and act on your own judgement instead. Many results in OtE are creatively interpretted by the players and GM, but seldom do results need to be discarded or overruled. -- Dan ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:56:03 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 59 Message-ID: <8d8emu$n0h$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.37.68 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Apr 15 00:56:03 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x26.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.192.37.68 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsd_anderson Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!CensurBot.NetScum.Dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3788 In article <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > Wayne Shaw writes: > > >On 12 Apr 2000 21:39:19 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > > >>Wayne Shaw writes: > >> > >>>On 12 Apr 2000 19:03:41 GMT, SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> > >>>wrote: > >> > >> > >>>> And often, a GM who is great at running existing rules isn't so > >>>>good at making them, particularly on the fly. Bongard's claim > >>>>that fast/simple games can handle details like running a barony > >>>>only holds true if you allow running the barony under fuzzy and/or > >>>>arbitrary conditions. > >> > >>>I'll go so far as to say that people who can handle making up > >>>consistent rules for this sort of thing on the fly over time are a > >>>vanishingly small breed. > >> > >>This strikes me as being besides the point -- you never need > >>to make up rules for something like running a barony "on the > >>fly". If a player is going to be in a position to do something > >>like that, you'll know in advance. The kind of rules you > >>need to make up on the fly are things like "how far can I > >>jump?" and "how many merchants are there in this town". Rules > >>for those sorts of things can be system-independent. > > > None the less, those can still involve complexities if that's what > > you're looking for (someone who is going to focus his game on a lot of > > outdoor survival sitautions for example) and he either is going to > > have those rules or have to improvise with great frequency. > > Not "with great frequency" unless the players insist on > exacting detail in a wide range of unrelated areas on a > regular basis. A GM in that situation is stuck doing > boatloads of work regardless of what system he's using. > He is _still_, in my experience, better off adding onto > a simple system instead of hoping a complex system has > what he needs. Take typical "complex systems" such as > AD&D, Rolemaster, or GURPS -- there may well be a rule > for what you need, but often as not it is a broken rule > and you're better off creating a rule of your own. Probably less often 'broken' Dan. But certainly a playtested rule that's been out among real play for a decade or more is less likely to be broken than an arbitrary ruling made in a hurry. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:59:38 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <8d8etl$n8l$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <8d40j6$rlg$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.37.68 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Apr 15 00:59:38 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x26.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.192.37.68 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsd_anderson Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!CensurBot.NetScum.Dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3790 In article <8d40j6$rlg$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > Wayne Shaw writes: > >On 13 Apr 2000 00:58:34 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > > >>> None the less, those can still involve complexities if that's what > >>> you're looking for (someone who is going to focus his game on a lot of > >>> outdoor survival sitautions for example) and he either is going to > >>> have those rules or have to improvise with great frequency. > > >>Not "with great frequency" unless the players insist on > >>exacting detail in a wide range of unrelated areas on a > >>regular basis. A GM in that situation is stuck doing > > > It's not just the player who may be interested in the detail. > > Contrary to your presumtion, a GM can care about those details too. > > He doesn't need system-specific rules to handle them. He's the > GM; he can do whatever he wants. He can use whatever rules he > feels like. He doesn't even have to explain them to the players; > players only need to know the rules which effect them. And many GMs want a set of rules they can use to run a gameworld. They do NOT want to go around guessing now the universe operates. Therefore they **want** detailed working systems with equally detailed rules. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 01:03:08 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8d8f46$nat$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <8d40j6$rlg$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <38f5c67e.433873056@news.ozemail.com.au> <8d5cug$nd9$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.37.68 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Apr 15 01:03:08 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x26.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.192.37.68 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsd_anderson Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3786 In article <8d5cug$nd9$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > And adding complexity to a simple system is easier than > simplifying a complex system. The English language makes a noted distinciton between the words 'complex' and 'complicated'. More often than not casual attempts to add complexity to a simple system produce a complicated system. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 01:05:23 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 56 Message-ID: <8d8f8c$njg$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <8d40j6$rlg$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> <38f5c67e.433873056@news.ozemail.com.au> <8d5cug$nd9$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net> <38f73fe2.530485407@news.ozemail.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.37.68 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Apr 15 01:05:23 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x26.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.192.37.68 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsd_anderson Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3787 In article <38f73fe2.530485407@news.ozemail.com.au>, wraith@powerup.com.au (The Wraith) wrote: > On 13 Apr 2000 21:07:28 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > > >wraith@powerup.com.au (The Wraith) writes: > > > >>On 13 Apr 2000 08:30:30 GMT, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > >>>Wayne Shaw writes: > >>> > >>>> It's not just the player who may be interested in the detail. > >>>> Contrary to your presumtion, a GM can care about those details too. > >>> > >>> He doesn't need system-specific rules to handle them. He's the > >>> GM; he can do whatever he wants. He can use whatever rules he > >>> feels like. > > > >> Including use a detailed system. > > > >You're stretching definitions beyond the breaking point. If > >you mean "use a detailed system, like Rolemaster" you are > >wrong inasmuch as it would be foolish for the GM to adopt and > >entire clunky system just to get the one rule he needs. > > Who said he would use it *only* for that one rule? The GM should take > *all* of his requirements into account when selecting a system. In > some cases, that assessment leads to the adoption of a detailed > system. > > >> You keep telling us that a detailed system is not *needed*. > >> Well, no, it's not needed. However, it may be desired, for > >> the detail that it produces in its results. > > > >And adding complexity to a simple system is easier than > >simplifying a complex system. > > Firstly, only you find this so. Others have discovered the opposite to > be true in their cases. > > Secondly, using a complex system which requires few or no > modifications to get the desired results is easier than using a simple > system that requires extensive modifications to get the desired > result. Only if the more complex system is the most suitable system in > the first place should it be used. Anything else is just choosing the > wrong system. A quick fix here. A quick fix there. Here a fix there a fix everywhere a quick fix. Now go through your 'fixed game' and TRY to find that simple system it originally used. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 01:12:26 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 50 Message-ID: <8d8fli$ntu$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d54bd$j7o$6@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d5dlo$7pe$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.37.68 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Apr 15 01:12:26 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x26.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.192.37.68 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsd_anderson Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.esat.net!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3792 In article <8d5dlo$7pe$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>, dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > SD Anderson <102250.1425@CompuServe.COM> writes: > > >Dan Bongard wrote: > >> This strikes me as being besides the point -- you never need > >> to make up rules for something like running a barony "on the > >> fly". If a player is going to be in a position to do something > >> like that, you'll know in advance. The kind of rules you > >> need to make up on the fly are things like "how far can I > >> jump?" and "how many merchants are there in this town". Rules > >> for those sorts of things can be system-independent. > > > I see your picture of running a barony in game, the Baron sits > >at his chair his player and the GM talk a bit and a roll is made > >for that month's affairs. > > > I see the opposite where EACH and EVERY detail is worked out > > and settle through player/GM discussion. > > Your assumption is mistake; I was not presuming a single > skill-roll for resolution. That is certainly one possibility, > but my statement applies to your scenario as well. Regardless > of where you fall along the spectrum between these, however, > there is no need for system-specific rules. There is no > point in having fixed rules at all, IMO, but if you > must have fixed rules simply pick and choose. And those who share your opinion will agree with you. Those whose experience lead them to other opinions disagree. *I* find, and many of the people I *play with* find detailed rules to be quite useful and good detailed systems to be worth the purchase price many times over. From your above *absolute* claim "Regardless of where you fall along the spectrum between these, however, there is no need for system- specific rules. There is no point in having fixed rules at all, IMO, but if you must have fixed rules simply pick and choose." it is clear to me that you cannot even CONCIEVE of the type of game playing I and my players prefer. The simple fact is that we have DONE simple rule games. And found them wanting. We're not 'wrong' for prefering things this way either. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Message-ID: <38F7F1DB.3C18@nospam.tyndale.apana.org.au> From: Brett Evill X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... References: <38EC961F.E82511CD@idirect.com> <20000410001254.25753.00000707@ng-fk1.aol.com> <8d69co$72362@cook.dotrs.gov.au> <38f7413a.530829762@news.ozemail.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: tynslip3.apana.org.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 955773395 202.12.90.167 (Sat, 15 Apr 2000 14:36:35 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 14:36:35 EST Organization: OzEmail Pty Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 14:36:44 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3850 The Wraith wrote: > > On 14 Apr 2000 05:12:56 GMT, BEvill@nospicedham.email.dot.gov.au > (Brett Evill) wrote: > > > >Let's try to take people's eaning, even when it is badly expressed, > > That strikes me as an extremely ironic line. There's certainly an irony in there, though I don't really think I could get away with claiming to have meant it. Regards, Brett Evill ###### From: triad3204@aol.com (Justin Bacon) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Lines: 93 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 15 Apr 2000 09:14:35 GMT References: <38F6913C.A9DF4EC7@idirect.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000415051435.23864.00000535@ng-fj1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3816 Richard Pace wrote: >> Is English not your primary language? > >The fabricated quote is unqualified, it neither mentions current or potential >systems -- within the context of the interview being continually >misrepresented in >this thread it's obvious he was referring to creating resistance to new >systems. So that would be a "no"? >So, after all these posts you don't get that I'm talking about the reduction >of the proliferation of new systems. I've gotten that perfectly. I even agree that the potential is there for this to be true. You, OTOH, remain completely baffled by the fact that this has nothing to do with what I said. >Significant? It's quite hard to list anything within this hobby as being >significant. Well, something must be significant. >The Babylon Project, RuneQuest, Earthdawn, Alternity, Noir, Talislanta, Star >Wars, and MERP off the top of my head. I'm not sure about Space 1889, Castle >Falkenstien, Kult or The Whispering Vault. Keeping in mind that we're talking about a five year timespan: 1. The Babylon Project. A game with a single supplement (or was there a GM's screen, too?) does not qualify as a significant RPG. 2. RuneQuest did not go away in the last five years. Unless you're talking about RuneQuest: Slayers, which never even saw print and thus never "went away". 3. Earthdawn. It's still here. 4. Alternity. Still here. 5. Noir. A completely unsupported game. 6. Talislanta. Isn't that still here? 7. Star Wars. Got one. 8. MERP. True. But MERP is largely based on Rolemaster which, assuming ICE escapes total destruction, will still be around. 9. Space 1889. Nope. 10. Castle Falkenstein. This one's marginal... I'll give it to you. 11. Kult. That's a good one. 12. The Whispering Vault. Still here. You've found three or four, so I'm somewhat impressed. But these are still vastly outnumbered by the number of systems which have *appeared* in the last five years. (And I'm really baffled by all the systems you list which aren't dead at all.) >Counting systems that have had to change publishers and therefore only had a short >period of being "away" >Feng Shui, Ars Magica, Everway, Pendragon, AD&D, Usagi Yojimbo and Legend of >the 5 Rings. Usagi Yojimbo is no longer being published by GRG? L5R is no longer being published by AEG? When did this happen? Pendragon never actually ceased publication. Ditto for Everway (which was "axed" by WotC, so is hardly a strong support for this paticular argument -- not to mention its only significance comes from its designer and the fact it was published by WotC). And I don't find this "pause in publication" a convincing argument. You're claiming that the multiplicity of systems in the marketplace is untenable and wouldn't be necessary if individual publishers didn't have to wander around creating new systems all the time. Why would alternative publishers be picking up game systems others have dropped or failed with if this were true? >Add to that the list of games publishers waffling between publishing and >filing for bankruptcy and you have a very unstable market. I know of no such companies (of any significance whatsoever -- I'm sure that, somewhere, a garage-run affair is on the crippling edge of bankruptcy). Do you have some actual evidence to back this up? Like, say, the names of the companies in question? And, note, ICE doesn't fit your description. >It was to demonstrate the instability in the market. An instability that, in >part, could be blamed on the resistance to new systems. Again: If the instability is the result of new systems, why are publishers picking up systems which others have dropped? That doesn't follow logically. It's almost as if (gasp!) the systems are succeeding even when the publishers fail. Justin Bacon triad@prairie.lakes.com ###### From: neelk@brick.cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc Subject: Re: Open Source Gaming -- I'm Confused... Date: 16 Apr 2000 17:07:13 GMT Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <8d2had$5ga$4@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> <8d2qe7$nb9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> <8d8emu$n0h$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: neelk@alum.mit.edu X-Trace: FOJK23m43Pz7Qkz8nLo/nrtIi86k/PFCwXcZ7gCrU2s= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Apr 2000 17:07:13 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!neelk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.games.frp.misc:3899 SD Anderson <102250.1425@compuserve.com> wrote: > In article <8d363q$6sf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>, > dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard) wrote: > > > > Not "with great frequency" unless the players insist on > > exacting detail in a wide range of unrelated areas on a > > regular basis. A GM in that situation is stuck doing > > boatloads of work regardless of what system he's using. > > He is _still_, in my experience, better off adding onto > > a simple system instead of hoping a complex system has > > what he needs. Take typical "complex systems" such as > > AD&D, Rolemaster, or GURPS -- there may well be a rule > > for what you need, but often as not it is a broken rule > > and you're better off creating a rule of your own. > > Probably less often 'broken' Dan. > > But certainly a playtested rule that's been out among real play for > a decade or more is less likely to be broken than an arbitrary ruling > made in a hurry. Empirically, this is not the case. Broken rules tend to stay broken. Consider, for example, the point-build system in GURPS. It is flat-out broken: a character with higher skills and attributes than another will frequently cost fewer points to create than the weaker one. This has been broken for years and years, and there is no chance it will ever get fixed. Neel