From: Alexander Stoll Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.elfquest,alt.fan.tolkien,alt.tv.star-trek Subject: Pointy Ears Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 17:12:21 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.comics.elfquest:79 Now, about ears: The Star Trek (Original Series) Mr. Spock and all Elfquest Wendy-art or better spinoff ears all have the lovely pinnal long sweep and taper that we've come to love and expect. So why is is so hard for contemporary makeup techs and some other fantasy artists to do ears "right"? The later Trek movies and series consistently had really sucky ears on Vulcans and Romulans. And in the print arena, even allowing for artistic license, ears that come to a hair-point are hardly credible biologically. And now the really lame-o elf and hobbit ears on the Peter Jackson LoTR film show the silliest stumpy little points ever seen. Of course I don't recall JRRT ever mentioning pointy ears so maybe we're lucky to have got any points at all. Dare I wonder how the EQ movie artists will handle ears? Why such conservatism? Nobody laughed at Mr. Spock (except for a few timid NBC producers, no doubt). ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.elfquest,alt.fan.tolkien,alt.tv.star-trek Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Date: 02 Jan 2002 22:37:39 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 85 Message-ID: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1010007464 2027 10.0.3.2 (2 Jan 2002 21:37:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2002 21:37:44 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.comics.elfquest:80 Alexander Stoll writes: > Now, about ears: The a.f.t crowd cringes, just from reading the Subject: line :-). > The Star Trek (Original Series) Mr. Spock and all Elfquest Wendy-art > or better spinoff ears all have the lovely pinnal long sweep and taper > that we've come to love and expect. Yes, a very elegant shape, particularly as Wendy draws them. > And now the really lame-o elf and hobbit ears on the Peter Jackson > LoTR film show the silliest stumpy little points ever seen. Specially the hobbits. Bilbos "point out of the back" ears were awfull. And Merry or Pippin (can not remember which) was really deformed. Tolkien says in LoTR "slightly pointed", but I doubt he meant it like that. PJ, what were you thinking there?! > Of course > I don't recall JRRT ever mentioning pointy ears so maybe we're lucky > to have got any points at all. Uh! Oh! This is an a.f.t (and r.a.b.t, where I usually live (I am reading this in r.a.c.e)) flame war introducer. The relatively tame FAQs say: Tolkien FAQ: http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~bouvin/tolkien/elfears.html Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ: http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Internal.html#ElfEars So one is open to believe what one wants, and flame. :-) For a bit more punch try a few of the (better) actual threads: http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/rec.arts.books.tolkien/19991107_Elf_ear_fight_positions http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/rec.arts.books.tolkien/20000715_about_ears http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/rec.arts.books.tolkien/20011028_Elvish_Ears_Yet_Again And PJs hobbit ears also get some critique: http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/rec.arts.books.tolkien/20011218_Hobbit_Ears_are_HUGE_Dumbo_the_Flying_Elephant_called_in_to_give_flying_lessons > Dare I wonder how the EQ movie artists will handle ears? Hopefully exactly in Wendys style. There exist no doubts how she intends them to look! One of the advantages with an comic as original. > Why such conservatism? Nobody laughed at Mr. Spock (except for a few > timid NBC producers, no doubt). Trying to apease the Tolkien flamewars? He also seems to have done so on the "holiest of the holiest" (the Balrog Wing debate). r.a.c.e and a.t.s-t will be surprised how one can produce multiple threads per month (!) discussing whether this monster has wings or not. (That is the black fiery monster in the mines, for those here who do not know the name, but have seen the film). As I am new to r.a.c.e, and intend to stay here (if my news server permits), an short intro: Tolkien: active since 15 years, read LoTR 7 times, TH 5 times, Silm and UT 2 times, and all 12 HoME once each. On r.a.b.t 2.5 years. Elfquest: discovered it 2/3 year ago, read original quest 5 times, SatBM and KotBW 2 times. Lurking here (as far as newsserver permited it) 2.5 months. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Reply-To: "Taemon" From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.elfquest,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Lines: 20 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 20:23:02 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.59.8.192 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 1010006987 62.59.8.192 (Wed, 02 Jan 2002 22:29:47 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 22:29:47 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!trev!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.comics.elfquest:81 Alexander Stoll wrote: >And now the really lame-o elf and hobbit ears on the Peter Jackson >LoTR film show the silliest stumpy little points ever seen. Of course >I don't recall JRRT ever mentioning pointy ears so maybe we're lucky >to have got any points at all. And that wouldn't have been so bad if those elves actually had been heartbreakingly beautiful, as they're supposed to be. But to have small ears AND to look like mere pretty humans is a foul fate indeed! I say the most beautiful person of the movie was Frodo, which is ridiculous, since he's a hobbit. >Dare I wonder how the EQ movie artists will handle ears? Ha, I'm not afraid on that score. T. ###### Reply-To: "Taemon" From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.elfquest References: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Lines: 13 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 18:17:35 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.59.4.153 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 1010078238 62.59.4.153 (Thu, 03 Jan 2002 18:17:18 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 18:17:18 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!trev!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.comics.elfquest:83 Neil Franklin wrote: >Elfquest: discovered it 2/3 year ago, read original quest 5 times, >SatBM and KotBW 2 times. Lurking here (as far as newsserver permited >it) 2.5 months. Hi, welcome here. I also read a.f.t. (since ereyesterday) but I'm happier to see someone new here because of the flowrate. Difference. With a.f.t. :-) Greetings, T. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.elfquest Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Date: 03 Jan 2002 22:42:34 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 33 Message-ID: <6ulmffqfg5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1010094154 609 10.0.3.2 (3 Jan 2002 21:42:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jan 2002 21:42:34 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.comics.elfquest:84 "Taemon" writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > >Elfquest: discovered it 2/3 year ago, read original quest 5 times, > >SatBM and KotBW 2 times. Lurking here (as far as newsserver permited > >it) 2.5 months. > > Hi, welcome here. I also read a.f.t. (since ereyesterday) Well I actually read r.a.b.t (rec.arts.books.tolkien), not a.f.t, as it tends to have more in depth discussions (well used to, before the film came out). > but I'm > happier to see someone new here because of the flowrate. Nice and peacefull. > Difference. > With a.f.t. :-) r.a.b.t has presently about 2/3 crossposts from a.f.t (all the film stuff), so I know what it is like. Been constant at 300 posts/day for over 1 month. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: Louis Epstein Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.elfquest,alt.fan.tolkien,alt.tv.star-trek,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 04:28:04 -0000 Message-ID: Reply-To: le@put.com References: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.17 (i686)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 53 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.online.be!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.comics.elfquest:88 rec.arts.books.tolkien:69657 In alt.fan.tolkien Neil Franklin wrote: : Alexander Stoll writes: :> Now, about ears: : The a.f.t crowd cringes, just from reading the Subject: line :-). :> The Star Trek (Original Series) Mr. Spock and all Elfquest Wendy-art :> or better spinoff ears all have the lovely pinnal long sweep and taper :> that we've come to love and expect. : Yes, a very elegant shape, particularly as Wendy draws them. Let us not kid ourselves that her creatures are Eldar!! :> And now the really lame-o elf and hobbit ears on the Peter Jackson :> LoTR film show the silliest stumpy little points ever seen. : Specially the hobbits. Bilbos "point out of the back" ears were awfull. : And Merry or Pippin (can not remember which) was really deformed. : Tolkien says in LoTR "slightly pointed", but I doubt he meant it like : that. PJ, what were you thinking there?! That's in a letter,not in the book. Nowhere in the books themselves are ANY characters said to have pointed ears. :> Of course :> I don't recall JRRT ever mentioning pointy ears so maybe we're lucky :> to have got any points at all. : Uh! Oh! This is an a.f.t (and r.a.b.t, where I usually live (I am : reading this in r.a.c.e)) flame war introducer. The crossposting makes me wince...I have trimmed the non-Tolkien groups from my followups. If it's got pointed ears, and it's riding a wolf... IT'S AN ORC...SHOOT IT!! : The relatively tame FAQs say: : Tolkien FAQ: http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~bouvin/tolkien/elfears.html : Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ: http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Internal.html#ElfEars : So one is open to believe what one wants, and flame. :-) Any who believe Tolkien elves have pointed ears may hereby consider themselves flamed! ###### From: Alexander Stoll Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien,rec.arts.comics.elfquest,alt.tv.star-trek Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 21:48:34 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 51 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69922 rec.arts.comics.elfquest:91 > >Let us not kid ourselves that her creatures are Eldar!! Didn't hear it from me. > >:> And now the really lame-o elf and hobbit ears on the Peter Jackson >:> LoTR film show the silliest stumpy little points ever seen. > >: Specially the hobbits. Bilbos "point out of the back" ears were awfull. >: And Merry or Pippin (can not remember which) was really deformed. > >: Tolkien says in LoTR "slightly pointed", but I doubt he meant it like >: that. PJ, what were you thinking there?! > >That's in a letter,not in the book. >Nowhere in the books themselves are ANY characters >said to have pointed ears. > >:> Of course >:> I don't recall JRRT ever mentioning pointy ears so maybe we're lucky >:> to have got any points at all. > >: Uh! Oh! This is an a.f.t (and r.a.b.t, where I usually live (I am >: reading this in r.a.c.e)) flame war introducer. > >The crossposting makes me wince...I have trimmed the >non-Tolkien groups from my followups. > >If it's got pointed ears, >and it's riding a wolf... >IT'S AN ORC...SHOOT IT!! Oh pish -- my original subject was that of pointy ears, period. I should hope that those of us who are well-read can appreciate the differences between EQ, LoTR and ST without having an immune reaction, hm? The thesis was that pointed ears, having entered the popular lit and media culture from several points (Trek, ElfQuest, Yoda & more) as a non-human feature, should simply be done well. Kind of a populist minimum standard for things exotic. FWIW I rather like pointy-eared hobbits; gives them a definite Elvish aura. But the high degree of variability and faint-hearted attenuation in hobbit's & elves' ears was excessive in the LoTR flick. Surely after many generations of self-selecting such an elegant feature, each race would have all have long proud ears, subject perhaps to variability on a clan-by-clan basis, like the Proudfoots' large and exceptionally furry feet. But I speculate. Just don't start on the ears of "Poison Elves" - icky & ridiculous. Just as nasty as EQ is (or can be) pleasant. I just wondered why human actors cannot get good ears anymore. Perhaps nobody can fill the shoes of the late great John Chambers, who did Spock's original ears. Surely real pointies are not a lost art? We ain't at Desilu any more, Toto. http://www.hollywood.com/news/detail/article/774684 ###### Reply-To: "Taemon" From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.elfquest References: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6ulmffqfg5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Lines: 17 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <52pZ7.45693$sl6.127516@zonnet-reader-1> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:23:29 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.59.5.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 1010179329 62.59.5.5 (Fri, 04 Jan 2002 22:22:09 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 22:22:09 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!trev!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.comics.elfquest:87 Neil Franklin wrote: >> Hi, welcome here. I also read a.f.t. (since ereyesterday) >Well I actually read r.a.b.t (rec.arts.books.tolkien), not a.f.t, as >it tends to have more in depth discussions (well used to, before the >film came out). I looked at them both but had to make a quick decision (because of overwhelming flow rate). A.f.t. looked more readable but I'm the first to admit by decision was, well, quick :-) Hmmm... What shape would the Balrog's wings have? Please don't answer :-) Greetings, T. ###### From: Alexander Stoll Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien,rec.arts.comics.elfquest,alt.tv.star-trek Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 22:54:34 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69731 rec.arts.comics.elfquest:90 On Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:31:38 -0000, "RedFox" wrote: >Where was the first reference to elves made? > >Surely that is the 'correct' representation of elves, and any writer that >describes a character as elven should use that original text as a reference. Nuh-uh. That is a self-defeating approach, and again beside the point. What we're dealing with is the twentieth-century (the period when most of us were born) common perception of elvishness, and the use of pointy ears to depict elvishness and exotic or unhuman characters. ###### From: "James Stacey" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Lines: 65 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:30:30 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.168.150.70 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 1010147425 194.168.150.70 (Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:30:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:30:25 GMT Organization: ntl Business News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69312 not strictly true elves were said to have 'leaf shaped' ears in the Simarillon- make of that what you will -- James Stacey "Louis Epstein" wrote in message news:u3abqk4pu0tt9b@corp.supernews.com... > In alt.fan.tolkien Neil Franklin wrote: > : Alexander Stoll writes: > > :> Now, about ears: > > : The a.f.t crowd cringes, just from reading the Subject: line :-). > > > :> The Star Trek (Original Series) Mr. Spock and all Elfquest Wendy-art > :> or better spinoff ears all have the lovely pinnal long sweep and taper > :> that we've come to love and expect. > > : Yes, a very elegant shape, particularly as Wendy draws them. > > Let us not kid ourselves that her creatures > are Eldar!! > > :> And now the really lame-o elf and hobbit ears on the Peter Jackson > :> LoTR film show the silliest stumpy little points ever seen. > > : Specially the hobbits. Bilbos "point out of the back" ears were awfull. > : And Merry or Pippin (can not remember which) was really deformed. > > : Tolkien says in LoTR "slightly pointed", but I doubt he meant it like > : that. PJ, what were you thinking there?! > > That's in a letter,not in the book. > Nowhere in the books themselves are ANY characters > said to have pointed ears. > > :> Of course > :> I don't recall JRRT ever mentioning pointy ears so maybe we're lucky > :> to have got any points at all. > > : Uh! Oh! This is an a.f.t (and r.a.b.t, where I usually live (I am > : reading this in r.a.c.e)) flame war introducer. > > The crossposting makes me wince...I have trimmed the > non-Tolkien groups from my followups. > > If it's got pointed ears, > and it's riding a wolf... > IT'S AN ORC...SHOOT IT!! > > : The relatively tame FAQs say: > > : Tolkien FAQ: http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~bouvin/tolkien/elfears.html > : Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ: http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Internal.html#ElfEars > > : So one is open to believe what one wants, and flame. :-) > > Any who believe Tolkien elves have pointed ears > may hereby consider themselves flamed! ###### From: poodleranch@yahoo.com (Bob) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Date: 4 Jan 2002 12:10:31 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3dfcb22a.0201041210.723f3e0@posting.google.com> References: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.0.63.10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1010175032 29497 127.0.0.1 (4 Jan 2002 20:10:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 2002 20:10:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69735 "James Stacey" wrote in message news:... > not strictly true elves were said to have 'leaf shaped' ears in the > Simarillon- make of that what you will > > -- > James Stacey > Doesn't narrow it down much does it? Thanks goodness a Canadien didn't make the film, elf ears might have looked like mapleleafs. Bob ###### From: "Dylan Bryan-Dolman" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3dfcb22a.0201041210.723f3e0@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 20:59:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.175.100.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1010177990 216.175.100.236 (Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:59:50 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:59:50 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:59:51 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69431 Bob wrote: > "James Stacey" wrote: > > not strictly true -- elves were said to have 'leaf shaped' ears in the > > Simarillon- make of that what you will > Doesn't narrow it down much does it? Thanks goodness a > Canadian didn't make the film, elf ears might have looked like > mapleleafs. And the Californians would have thought they were supposed to be pot leaves, and loved the books even more. ###### Reply-To: "Taemon" From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3dfcb22a.0201041210.723f3e0@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Lines: 14 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <42pZ7.45692$sl6.127516@zonnet-reader-1> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:21:27 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.59.5.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 1010179328 62.59.5.5 (Fri, 04 Jan 2002 22:22:08 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 22:22:08 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!trev!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69544 Bob wrote: >> > not strictly true -- elves were said to have 'leaf shaped' ears in the >> > Simarillon- make of that what you will >> Doesn't narrow it down much does it? Thanks goodness a >> Canadian didn't make the film, elf ears might have looked like >> mapleleafs. Pine needles might have be fun. Greetings, T. ###### Lines: 11 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: graemecree@aol.compost (Graeme) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 05 Jan 2002 17:26:11 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Message-ID: <20020105122611.13119.00003637@mb-fe.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69490 >: Yes, a very elegant shape, particularly as Wendy draws them. Louis wrote: >>Let us not kid ourselves that her creatures are Eldar!! >> Are you saying that she draws Avari? Even so, their ears shouldn't look differently than those of the Eldar. ###### From: John R. Cooper Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Message-ID: References: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 20:39:58 EST Organization: WebUseNet Corp. http://corp.webusenet.com - ReInventing the UseNet Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 17:37:31 -0800 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!fs01-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news.webusenet.com.POSTED!a8649d3c!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70154 On Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:30:30 -0000, "James Stacey" wrote: >not strictly true elves were said to have 'leaf shaped' ears in the >Simarillon- make of that what you will Exactly. Leaves come in many shapes and sizes. So do humans and human features. Since there is no single "correct" interpretation of "leaf shaped", any interpretation is as valid as any other. Therefore, to my mind, "pointy" (and variations on it) are just as valid as "non-pointy". It seems absurd for anyone to claim that pointy ears are wrong while round ears are correct, when "leaf shaped" covers both (and many other variants besides). Cheers, - John ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien,rec.arts.comics.elfquest,alt.tv.star-trek Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Date: 06 Jan 2002 00:53:22 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 45 Message-ID: <6uk7uwtkwd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1010274806 2022 10.0.3.2 (5 Jan 2002 23:53:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 2002 23:53:26 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69935 rec.arts.comics.elfquest:92 Alexander Stoll writes: > >Let us not kid ourselves that her creatures are Eldar!! > > Didn't hear it from me. Nor me. Eldar are only one subtype of Elves, Wolfriders being an other, and some would add Vulcans being annother. But who is surprised that this is enough to trigger the Epy-bot? Non-a.f.t-ers: Epstein just is like that. Allergic to anything than deviates from his world view. > >If it's got pointed ears, > >and it's riding a wolf... > >IT'S AN ORC...SHOOT IT!! > > Oh pish -- my original subject was that of pointy ears, period. I should hope that those of us who are well-read can > appreciate the differences between EQ, LoTR and ST without having an immune reaction, hm? Not Epstein. > Just don't start on the ears of "Poison Elves" - icky & ridiculous. Just as nasty as EQ is (or can be) pleasant. "Poison Elves", what is that? Never heard of them before. Or is that one of the things one is better not to want to know? > I just wondered why human actors cannot get good ears anymore. Perhaps nobody can fill the shoes of the late great John > Chambers, who did Spock's original ears. Surely real pointies are not a lost art? Easily possible. Or film directors want to avoid stereotypes at any cost. Even when they would have been better to use them. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Message-ID: <3C37BAB4.5AE13665@verizon.net> From: Hekate Trismegista Organization: Grave Robbers of teh Unknown X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien,rec.arts.comics.elfquest,alt.tv.star-trek Subject: Re: Pointy Ears References: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6uk7uwtkwd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 X-Trace: /K+neRup/5KXU/qiZS/+dxO3AysNGrIaHKkjgAAfuWCXHuDrW9WSz5jWPfVN42Rwe741FvJiCcZx!80iYDAOFfekDFUR8ksQrgcPRsFQKf5lC/lDNCGG+7+tkSUo1U7xWnY3PS3c1HbYb X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 02:47:07 GMT Distribution: world Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 02:47:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:69954 rec.arts.comics.elfquest:93 Neil Franklin wrote: > > Nor me. Eldar are only one subtype of Elves, Wolfriders being an > other, and some would add Vulcans being annother. Elves is elves. There's so many kinds in so many places. They're not just Tolkien's anymore, if they ever were. I mean what with all those Alfar and Faerie Queens and Titanias and such... > But who is surprised that this is enough to trigger the Epy-bot? Put me down in the "firmly not surprised" list. > Non-a.f.t-ers: Epstein just is like that. Allergic to anything than > deviates from his world view. He won't be happy until Peter Jackson's burning merrily at the stake, I suspect. -- Watch This Space | res0idv9@verizon.net | cam#9309026 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG AeonAdventure | "No turning on the lights in the evil room, dammit!" | -- http://www.sluggy.com ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 18:25:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.158 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1010341515 12.79.23.158 (Sun, 06 Jan 2002 18:25:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 18:25:15 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!telocity-west!DirecTV-DSL!news-west.eli.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:70230 "John R. Cooper" wrote in message news:udaf3usgbttpuf9n014veckg81jr8cieh7@4ax.com... > Leaves come in many shapes and sizes. So do humans and human > features. Since there is no single "correct" interpretation of "leaf > shaped", any interpretation is as valid as any other. Therefore, to > my mind, "pointy" (and variations on it) are just as valid as > "non-pointy". It seems absurd for anyone to claim that pointy ears > are wrong while round ears are correct, when "leaf shaped" covers > both (and many other variants besides). Though this becomes somewhat less of an issue when we consider that the actual lines of text in question are; "The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf shaped than [Human?]" LROW, Etymologies - LAS "A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'..." Letters #27 So, it isn't a matter of whether 'leaf shaped' should be interpreted as pointed or not - the 'pointed' part is stated directly in the same passage. The only real question is whether these texts can be taken as indicative of Tolkien's final feelings on the issue. ###### From: Alexander Stoll Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien,rec.arts.comics.elfquest,alt.tv.star-trek Subject: Re: Pointy Ears Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 20:48:54 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <6upu4sa0yk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:71072 rec.arts.comics.elfquest:105 On Sat, 5 Jan 2002 14:12:24 -0000, "RedFox" wrote: >My point was that if the original description of an elf mentioned pointed >ears as a characteristic then thats how elves are, no arguments. Well, the English term from the Old Norse goes back 800+ years or so, but since I disagree with even the relevance of "original description", so what? The current understanding of elvishness is all that matters. Look at the "original description" of what we now call schizophrenia: a madness caused by evil spirits, demons or black humours; then it became "scientific" after Freud and was blamed on one's mother; now it's a fairly well-characterized syndrome of biochemical imbalance-induced dysperceptions and pyschoses. So much for the practical worth of original descriptions. > LOTR is not the bible on elfishness (if thats a word) Yes indeed, but LotR is one of the most influential and widely-read books (& widely-viewed movies now) featuring elves, so it exerts an undue influence. OTOH in the illustrated media I think Wendy's elves are far more influential in people's (or fans' anyway) visual impressions. That and early Spock have raised a pretty high standard of pointy-earedness. Peter Jackson knew he'd be fit only to direct Playtex commercials if he screwed the pooch on LotR:FotR, so he stayed fairly close to the material (tho I'm sure Bombadil and Butterbur would diagree). Whoever blew it on the ears should be assigned to simian navel lint on the next Planet of the Apes flick; but Jackson okayed the stumpy ears so he gets the primary blame for such a leg-lift.