From: Belba Grubb From Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 07:43:06 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 42 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170214 Yes, I know, but I was woolgathering a bit today and the thought came: if I were filming "The Lord of the Rings," Lothlorien would be about the only place I'd use full color, there and for Galadriel wherever she showed up (save at the Havens). For much of the rest of the story, certainly wherever the hobbits were concerned, black and white would be the best as this most closely allows the reader's imagination to kick in; as well, it lends itself well to mood and suggestion. This means all of "The Hobbit" would be filmed in B&W, save perhaps the Elven fires in Mirkwood and Gandalf's pine grenades, and little touches like that where a very, very faint hint of color might be effective. Yes, even in Rivendell in "The Lord of the Rings" I'd use black and white, with a hint of color perhaps to suggest the fea of the more powerful of the firstborn and to hint at the power inherent in Gandalf and Elrond...but I would use color for the stars and night sky when Bilbo goes out into his garden and for Frodo's dream in the Hall of Fire (yes, I would definitely film the Hall in black and white) and perhaps a hint of color for Arwen and especially Aragorn in that Elvish armor as Frodo sees the two of them as he leaves the Hall. Only when the LOTR tale reached the lands of men (Rohan, that is, not Bree, where hobbits also dwell and the moodiness of B&W would work so well) would I start using a version of color film, perhaps generally using something "olde" like what one sees on the old 50s and 60s movies (might want to use this for Bombadil and Goldberry, too) and saving the clear, rich modern color capabilities for highlights and whenever JRRT brings in the high points and/or reveals a character's nobility, etc. And I would keep that "Technicolor" approach in Mordor -- black and white would be too good for the plain of Gorgoroth: let the viewers know there is color available but deny it to them, instead giving them ashen gray and livid green at the outskirts and make them real, real thirsty for a little spot of cheer (BG). Save for the glimpse of Sauron's Eye, of course, and the Sammath Naur, and the phial of Galadriel and a few other select points, when the full clarity of modern color film could be used to effect. Just a thought...now, back to work. Barb ###### From: fear&loafing Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 14:34:15 +0000 Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.134.126.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 1110378728 712 217.134.126.123 (9 Mar 2005 14:32:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Mar 2005 14:32:08 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!cw-insnet-peer-00!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170216 Belba Grubb From Stock wrote: > Yes, I know, but I was woolgathering a bit today and the thought came: > if I were filming "The Lord of the Rings," Lothlorien would be about > the only place I'd use full color, there and for Galadriel wherever > she showed up (save at the Havens). For much of the rest of the > story, certainly wherever the hobbits were concerned, black and white > would be the best as this most closely allows the reader's imagination > to kick in; as well, it lends itself well to mood and suggestion. > This means all of "The Hobbit" would be filmed in B&W, save perhaps > the Elven fires in Mirkwood and Gandalf's pine grenades, and little > touches like that where a very, very faint hint of color might be > effective. Yes, even in Rivendell in "The Lord of the Rings" I'd use > black and white, with a hint of color perhaps to suggest the fea of > the more powerful of the firstborn and to hint at the power inherent > in Gandalf and Elrond...but I would use color for the stars and night > sky when Bilbo goes out into his garden and for Frodo's dream in the > Hall of Fire (yes, I would definitely film the Hall in black and > white) and perhaps a hint of color for Arwen and especially Aragorn in > that Elvish armor as Frodo sees the two of them as he leaves the Hall. > Only when the LOTR tale reached the lands of men (Rohan, that is, not > Bree, where hobbits also dwell and the moodiness of B&W would work so > well) would I start using a version of color film, perhaps generally > using something "olde" like what one sees on the old 50s and 60s > movies (might want to use this for Bombadil and Goldberry, too) and > saving the clear, rich modern color capabilities for highlights and > whenever JRRT brings in the high points and/or reveals a character's > nobility, etc. > And I would keep that "Technicolor" approach in Mordor -- black and > white would be too good for the plain of Gorgoroth: let the viewers > know there is color available but deny it to them, instead giving them > ashen gray and livid green at the outskirts and make them real, real > thirsty for a little spot of cheer (BG). Save for the glimpse of > Sauron's Eye, of course, and the Sammath Naur, and the phial of > Galadriel and a few other select points, when the full clarity of > modern color film could be used to effect. > Just a thought...now, back to work. > Barb > I would cast Laurel and Hardy as Legolas and Gimli ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.144.30.9 From: "Leon Trollski" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:10:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1110384627 24.71.223.147 (Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:10:27 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:10:27 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170220 "Belba Grubb From Stock" wrote in message news:05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com... > Yes, I know, but I was woolgathering a bit today and the thought came: > if I were filming "The Lord of the Rings," Lothlorien would be about > the only place I'd use full color, there and for Galadriel wherever > she showed up (save at the Havens). For much of the rest of the > story, certainly wherever the hobbits were concerned, black and white > would be the best as this most closely allows the reader's imagination > to kick in; as well, it lends itself well to mood and suggestion. > > This means all of "The Hobbit" would be filmed in B&W, save perhaps > the Elven fires in Mirkwood and Gandalf's pine grenades, and little > touches like that where a very, very faint hint of color might be > effective. Yes, even in Rivendell in "The Lord of the Rings" I'd use > black and white, with a hint of color perhaps to suggest the fea of > the more powerful of the firstborn and to hint at the power inherent > in Gandalf and Elrond...but I would use color for the stars and night > sky when Bilbo goes out into his garden and for Frodo's dream in the > Hall of Fire (yes, I would definitely film the Hall in black and > white) and perhaps a hint of color for Arwen and especially Aragorn in > that Elvish armor as Frodo sees the two of them as he leaves the Hall. What a great idea, I'd concur 110%, and of course Smaug and his horde, but I'd go for a hand-tinted effect there to mimic JRRT"s original painting or the illustrated novel; Beörn's honey-cakes, the eyes of the spiders, Sting's blue glow, and Bard's codpiece heheh. I'll say it again DEREK JACOBI as Bilbo, he looks like the illustrated novel version, and should be cast with straight hair (I think Jackson overdid the curly hair), I can not think of another actor standing agape at the door (bobbing on the mat like a grocer), or making up a story to cover his escape from Goblinoria, or screwing up his courage and anger in the Forest. He's not too old and his vocal delivery is unparalleled. ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Date: 9 Mar 2005 16:26:23 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net uEGtUweCjjzHbzSsgK0PwQleJNu91ogirjy+HkcH9cTS3j6m1l User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170222 On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 14:34:15 +0000, fear&loafing wrote: >> > I would cast Laurel and Hardy as Legolas and Gimli I thought they did. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Date: 9 Mar 2005 17:01:36 GMT Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> <112ua329u1ql5ad@corp.supernews.com> X-Trace: individual.net /gEj5WZ7QK2VIHZKgVFZYgfQ1Fxz+ZopJs82Bb7SVrXBDtCN2V User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170228 "aelfwina" wrote in news:112ua329u1ql5ad@corp.supernews.com: > "Belba Grubb From Stock" wrote in message > news:05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com... >> Yes, I know, but I was woolgathering a bit today and the thought >> came: > (snip of Belba's wonderful idea) > > That sounds really intriguing. For The Hobbit? Hmm...what would > *I* do? I'm thinking--go back to animation, but have it done in a > very painterly way; get someone to use Tolkien's own art and > illustrations as a basis, and then animate it using *his* style. > The colors would be those beautiful muted watercolors he seemed to > favour. Have you seen Miyazaki's watercolours of Nausicaa? -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:42:33 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <112ua329u1ql5ad@corp.supernews.com> References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newshub.sdsu.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170224 "Belba Grubb From Stock" wrote in message news:05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com... > Yes, I know, but I was woolgathering a bit today and the thought came: (snip of Belba's wonderful idea) That sounds really intriguing. For The Hobbit? Hmm...what would *I* do? I'm thinking--go back to animation, but have it done in a very painterly way; get someone to use Tolkien's own art and illustrations as a basis, and then animate it using *his* style. The colors would be those beautiful muted watercolors he seemed to favour. But perhaps have a framing story done with real actors--of Bilbo, sitting in Bag End, or perhaps outside it, and telling the story to some very young hobbits--clearly young Frodo, Merry, Pippin, Sam, maybe a few of the other cousins as well...he starts to tell the story, and then it dissolves into the animation... I am not certain what I would do with LotR. If I had the knowledge of how to do it, and if all things were possible (LOL!) I think I would just like to "edit" PJ's version, and add in all the things I missed, and take out some of the things he added that I didn't care for, to make it canon. Of course, that would be a version only available on DVD to devoted JRRT diehards, as it would have to be about 36 hours long. ( And I would still have trouble casting Tom Bombadil.) Well, we can dream, can't we? Barbara ###### From: "Rhiannon Sands" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:13:24 -0000 Lines: 56 Message-ID: <3997scF606i74U1@individual.net> References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> X-Trace: individual.net EZxoAGsR+5t4hJbOu0bADgoG6TCP50tKIJ/woGaa2jTOnrlCsB X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170241 "Belba Grubb From Stock" wrote in message news:05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com... > Yes, I know, but I was woolgathering a bit today and the thought came: > if I were filming "The Lord of the Rings," Lothlorien would be about > the only place I'd use full color, there and for Galadriel wherever > she showed up (save at the Havens). For much of the rest of the > story, certainly wherever the hobbits were concerned, black and white > would be the best as this most closely allows the reader's imagination > to kick in; as well, it lends itself well to mood and suggestion. > > This means all of "The Hobbit" would be filmed in B&W, save perhaps > the Elven fires in Mirkwood and Gandalf's pine grenades, and little > touches like that where a very, very faint hint of color might be > effective. Yes, even in Rivendell in "The Lord of the Rings" I'd use > black and white, with a hint of color perhaps to suggest the fea of > the more powerful of the firstborn and to hint at the power inherent > in Gandalf and Elrond...but I would use color for the stars and night > sky when Bilbo goes out into his garden and for Frodo's dream in the > Hall of Fire (yes, I would definitely film the Hall in black and > white) and perhaps a hint of color for Arwen and especially Aragorn in > that Elvish armor as Frodo sees the two of them as he leaves the Hall. > > Only when the LOTR tale reached the lands of men (Rohan, that is, not > Bree, where hobbits also dwell and the moodiness of B&W would work so > well) would I start using a version of color film, perhaps generally > using something "olde" like what one sees on the old 50s and 60s > movies (might want to use this for Bombadil and Goldberry, too) and > saving the clear, rich modern color capabilities for highlights and > whenever JRRT brings in the high points and/or reveals a character's > nobility, etc. > > And I would keep that "Technicolor" approach in Mordor -- black and > white would be too good for the plain of Gorgoroth: let the viewers > know there is color available but deny it to them, instead giving them > ashen gray and livid green at the outskirts and make them real, real > thirsty for a little spot of cheer (BG). Save for the glimpse of > Sauron's Eye, of course, and the Sammath Naur, and the phial of > Galadriel and a few other select points, when the full clarity of > modern color film could be used to effect. > > Just a thought...now, back to work. > I think I'd probably go for the Sky Capt and the World of Tomorrow look myself, a sort of magical sepia tone type thing. I'd probably want to cast Richard Belzer as Gandalf though... Erm, anyway.... -- Rhiannon_S Yes, I am a fluffly bunny, but so was the one in Monty Python! ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.68.240.107 From: Drude Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Message-ID: References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Lines: 75 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:29:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.64.223.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1110418167 24.64.223.206 (Wed, 09 Mar 2005 18:29:27 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 18:29:27 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170252 In article <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com>, barbb@dbtech.net says... > Yes, I know, but I was woolgathering a bit today and the thought came: > if I were filming "The Lord of the Rings," Lothlorien would be about > the only place I'd use full color, there and for Galadriel wherever > she showed up (save at the Havens). For much of the rest of the > story, certainly wherever the hobbits were concerned, black and white > would be the best as this most closely allows the reader's imagination > to kick in; as well, it lends itself well to mood and suggestion. > > This means all of "The Hobbit" would be filmed in B&W, save perhaps > the Elven fires in Mirkwood and Gandalf's pine grenades, and little > touches like that where a very, very faint hint of color might be > effective. Yes, even in Rivendell in "The Lord of the Rings" I'd use > black and white, with a hint of color perhaps to suggest the fea of > the more powerful of the firstborn and to hint at the power inherent > in Gandalf and Elrond...but I would use color for the stars and night > sky when Bilbo goes out into his garden and for Frodo's dream in the > Hall of Fire (yes, I would definitely film the Hall in black and > white) and perhaps a hint of color for Arwen and especially Aragorn in > that Elvish armor as Frodo sees the two of them as he leaves the Hall. > > Only when the LOTR tale reached the lands of men (Rohan, that is, not > Bree, where hobbits also dwell and the moodiness of B&W would work so > well) would I start using a version of color film, perhaps generally > using something "olde" like what one sees on the old 50s and 60s > movies (might want to use this for Bombadil and Goldberry, too) and > saving the clear, rich modern color capabilities for highlights and > whenever JRRT brings in the high points and/or reveals a character's > nobility, etc. > > And I would keep that "Technicolor" approach in Mordor -- black and > white would be too good for the plain of Gorgoroth: let the viewers > know there is color available but deny it to them, instead giving them > ashen gray and livid green at the outskirts and make them real, real > thirsty for a little spot of cheer (BG). Save for the glimpse of > Sauron's Eye, of course, and the Sammath Naur, and the phial of > Galadriel and a few other select points, when the full clarity of > modern color film could be used to effect. > > Just a thought...now, back to work. > > Barb > > Ahh...yes... but then you'd be missing the point of making it into a film in the first place, wouldn't you? When a person makes a film of a book, there's no way to appease every reader of that book, as any book can be interpreted so differently from one reader to the next, so... filmmakers (directors, writers, etc...) interpret the book as THEY perceive it, and try to keep the book fans happy as generally as possible. But, ultimately, it is the FILMMAKER'S vision which makes it to the screen, and that's as it should be, as the film is the FILMMAKER'S work. It has ceased to be a novel, and is now a film. It is a different piece of art, simply inspired by the original book. To make the film your way, you are bowing to the pressures of each and every person who read that book, and that is the way BAD films are made in the world today -- by committee. Say what you will about PJ's version of LOTR, it is ultimately HIS vision of Tolkien's words and worlds, and nothing will change that, and that's the way it should be. I can guarantee that if every single person in this NG were to film their own version of LOTR, you would have a completely different version for each of those filmmakers, and each would include or leave out what they, personally, found important/not important, and concentrate on those theme elements which they, individually, found necessary. And there would be that much more dissention here in AFT and RABT!!! Drude ###### From: Belba Grubb From Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 05:30:34 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: <3la031l5bll6nap06621vc4j5697oot6rm@4ax.com> References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 67 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170262 On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:29:27 GMT, Drude wrote: >In article <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com>, >barbb@dbtech.net says... >> Just a thought...now, back to work. >> >> Barb >> >> >Ahh...yes... but then you'd be missing the point of making it into a >film in the first place, wouldn't you? Of course -- I agree totally with what JRRT said about drama in "On Fairy-stories" (and he in his turn most probably agreed with what Goethe had had to say about the impossibility of getting any more than silver apples onto the stage, rather than the whole tree): it requires a world too much. It's just that a child of the film age fantasizes sometimes.... It was the treatment I was thinking about originally, but as some have brought up casting, here I would use JRRT's sketch of Sam Gamgee and Ham Gamgee (a totally different SG and HG, of course) in "Mr. Bliss" as a guide and go from there using as my inspiration the approach of Irwin Allen, who had almost as great a genius for characters as JRRT had for names. Not at all what people would settle for these days, of course ("OMG, 'The Towering Inferno' meets 'The Two Towers'? NO WAY!!!), but it would work well, I believe. The mayor of San Francisco and his wife, for instance, in the former are as unforgettable and entertaining as are Eothain and Beregond in the latter. >Say what you will about PJ's version of LOTR, Actually I prefer to say as little as possible and just move on (BG). >I can guarantee that if every single person in this NG were to film >their own version of LOTR, you would have a completely different version >for each of those filmmakers, and each would include or leave out what >they, personally, found important/not important, and concentrate on >those theme elements which they, individually, found necessary. Yes, that's why I posted it. A look at the work through yet another lens. Don't leave out the visual treatment, though -- very important. >And there would be that much more dissention here in AFT and RABT!!! Good lord, the first time through I read that as "discussion." It's true that the art of discussion has mostly degenerated into an all-or-nothing alligator wrassle these days; that will change, though. Things always change. In the meantime, it's good to talk together, even if we are doing it at full shout. To be human is to engage with, to care about. To be human is to love another. To be human is to communicate with someone, even if you are only shouting at them. The most human of all is discourse. With nature. With other human beings. -- Sergio Troncoso Barb http://sergiotroncoso.com/essays/911/ ###### From: Belba Grubb From Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:43:49 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: <4ko831dq2i5vnghjqq20h5rcib6uiutdcr@4ax.com> References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> <20050311055845.19901.qmail@riot.eu.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 93 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!209.11.36.156.MISMATCH!nntp-server.pubsub.com!news.glorb.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170367 On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:00:35 GMT, Igenlode wrote: >On 9 Mar 2005 Belba Grubb From Stock wrote: > >[snip] > >> Only when the LOTR tale reached the lands of men (Rohan, that is, not >> Bree, where hobbits also dwell and the moodiness of B&W would work so >> well) would I start using a version of color film, perhaps generally >> using something "olde" like what one sees on the old 50s and 60s >> movies (might want to use this for Bombadil and Goldberry, too) and >> saving the clear, rich modern color capabilities for highlights and >> whenever JRRT brings in the high points and/or reveals a character's >> nobility, etc. >> >Of course, to be *really* nit-picky, I'd point out that ye olde colour >film tended to be very heavy on the "clear, rich" colours and not too hot >on the moody sepias of modern film... Yes, sort of like one of the most obvious differences between Eomer and Aragorn, no? Though to achieve the effect noted above I would prefer the modern techniques more for their clarity and wider range of colors than for their moody sepias. Example:"The Riders of Rohan" Starts off in black and white, with the night sky done in modern color (always I'd do the night sky with modern colors). Comes the dawn and our first close look at Rohan: JRRT uses no half-measures or subtleties here: the sun has a red rim; the "colours of the waking earth" are green, white, blue, purple, jet and rose (Technicolor does rose very well). The description indeed lends itself well to the transition from B&W to Technicolor: The red rim of the sun rose over the shoulders of the dark lands. Before them in the West the world lay still, formless and grey; but even as they looked, the colours of the waking earth returned... The daytime figures of the Three Hunters, however, are always shown with modern techniques, with the Elven cloaks providing the blend between modern clarity and variety and the Technicolor world that surrounds them, both constantly interacting upon a B&W gray background. This would work very well to accent their being strangers in the land, too. One could use the moodiness of modern color techniques on the night when The young moon was glimmering in a misty sky, but it gave small light, and the stairs were veiled. However, when the Riders of Rohan come on the scene, I see them as Anglosaxon horsemen might have been depicted in old prints, which did not use subtle colors. Their grey horses, their flaxen-pale hair, their painted shields, their burnished coats of mail all would work well in Technicolor. And then Aragorn rises up out of the ground, seemingly, and hails them -- at once we can see the difference that Eomer will soon comment on: ...there is something strange about you, Strider...and strange too is your raiment. As Lothlorien and Galadriel always appear in modern color, this treatment will also highlight the "Elvishness" of the three travellers and take the confrontation between Gimli and Eomer, etc., out of the intellectual and into the visible and therefore visceral realm, bringing us better understanding of both the Three Hunters and the Riders of Rohan and just how wide is the gap between them. And how wonderful the effect would be when the modern-filmed Anduril is unsheathed in the Technicolor world: Aragorn threw back his cloak [and the Technicolor/gray blend...BB]. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Anduril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out...it seemed to the eyes of Legolas that a white flame flickered on the brows of Aragorn like a shining crown. The actor playing Eomer will still have to convince us that he is at once still proud and yet overawed by Aragorn and his claim, but it will be much easier for us to believe, as we will have seen it too. Uh, what is the technical name for "modern color techniques"? That's very bulky to say but I don't have the knowledge to hunt for the correct term on the Net. Barb ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Date: 13 Mar 2005 18:15:54 GMT Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> <20050311055845.19901.qmail@riot.eu.org> <4ko831dq2i5vnghjqq20h5rcib6uiutdcr@4ax.com> X-Trace: individual.net KoO6NY1Xr17RetU26qqnhQD9gIgtNQbj+1c3RyGHgn/anjAD/g User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170370 Belba Grubb From Stock wrote in news:4ko831dq2i5vnghjqq20h5rcib6uiutdcr@4ax.com: > > Though to achieve the effect noted above I would prefer the modern > techniques more for their clarity and wider range of colors than > for their moody sepias. > > Example:"The Riders of Rohan" > > Starts off in black and white, with the night sky done in modern > color (always I'd do the night sky with modern colors). > > Comes the dawn and our first close look at Rohan: JRRT uses no > half-measures or subtleties here: the sun has a red rim; the > "colours of the waking earth" are green, white, blue, purple, jet > and rose (Technicolor does rose very well). The description > indeed lends itself well to the transition from B&W to > Technicolor: [snip] Have you seen 'The Road Home', directed by Zhang Yimou? He's probably the biggest colour fetishist of the better known directors, culminating in the colour-coded 'Hero'. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: Belba Grubb From Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:46:22 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: <4s1b311ebdijiq3h5nmgbn6hr6rs2671kc@4ax.com> References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> <20050311055845.19901.qmail@riot.eu.org> <4ko831dq2i5vnghjqq20h5rcib6uiutdcr@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170390 On 13 Mar 2005 18:15:54 GMT, Yuk Tang wrote: >Belba Grubb From Stock wrote in >news:4ko831dq2i5vnghjqq20h5rcib6uiutdcr@4ax.com: >> >> Though to achieve the effect noted above I would prefer the modern >> techniques more for their clarity and wider range of colors than >> for their moody sepias. >> >> Example:"The Riders of Rohan" >> >> Starts off in black and white, with the night sky done in modern >> color (always I'd do the night sky with modern colors). >> >> Comes the dawn and our first close look at Rohan: JRRT uses no >> half-measures or subtleties here: the sun has a red rim; the >> "colours of the waking earth" are green, white, blue, purple, jet >> and rose (Technicolor does rose very well). The description >> indeed lends itself well to the transition from B&W to >> Technicolor: > >[snip] > >Have you seen 'The Road Home', directed by Zhang Yimou? He's >probably the biggest colour fetishist of the better known directors, >culminating in the colour-coded 'Hero'. No, I haven't. Will keep an eye out for it, though. Sounds interesting -- thanks for the reference. Barb ###### From: "Gregg Cattanach" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> <20050311055845.19901.qmail@riot.eu.org> <4ko831dq2i5vnghjqq20h5rcib6uiutdcr@4ax.com> <4s1b311ebdijiq3h5nmgbn6hr6rs2671kc@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.44.85.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr31.news.prodigy.com 1110809486 ST000 12.44.85.20 (Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:11:26 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:11:26 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: FKPGW]KETBS[SVPXOZKTOFTBGR_N@ATM[@GZ_GYO^ZUDUWYAKVUOPCW[ML\JXUCKVFDYZKBMSFX^OMSAFNTINTDDMVW[X\THOPXZRVOCJTUTPC\_JSBVX\KAOTBAJBVMZTYAKMNLDI_MFDSSOLXINH__FS^\WQGHGI^C@E[A_CF\AQLDQ\BTMPLDFNVUQ_VM Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:11:26 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!207.115.63.142.MISMATCH!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr31.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!9c9da953!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170394 Belba Grubb From Stock wrote: > On 13 Mar 2005 18:15:54 GMT, Yuk Tang wrote: > >> Belba Grubb From Stock wrote in >> news:4ko831dq2i5vnghjqq20h5rcib6uiutdcr@4ax.com: >>> >>> Though to achieve the effect noted above I would prefer the modern >>> techniques more for their clarity and wider range of colors than >>> for their moody sepias. >>> >>> Example:"The Riders of Rohan" >>> >>> Starts off in black and white, with the night sky done in modern >>> color (always I'd do the night sky with modern colors). >>> >>> Comes the dawn and our first close look at Rohan: JRRT uses no >>> half-measures or subtleties here: the sun has a red rim; the >>> "colours of the waking earth" are green, white, blue, purple, jet >>> and rose (Technicolor does rose very well). The description >>> indeed lends itself well to the transition from B&W to >>> Technicolor: >> >> [snip] >> >> Have you seen 'The Road Home', directed by Zhang Yimou? He's >> probably the biggest colour fetishist of the better known directors, >> culminating in the colour-coded 'Hero'. > > No, I haven't. Will keep an eye out for it, though. Sounds > interesting -- thanks for the reference. "Hero" and "House of Flying Daggers" are both not to be missed. Outstanding filmmaking. -- Gregg C. ###### From: Een Wilde Ier Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:35:12 +0000 Lines: 30 Message-ID: <39p68vF62h4qkU1@individual.net> References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: individual.net Kr1W3Yv1fhoKjj7ZHd16aQwB40GBtLVrJ1WQXFl60vCV1PhDmN User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170435 Belba Grubb From Stock wrote: > Yes, I know, but I was woolgathering a bit today and the thought came: > if I were filming "The Lord of the Rings," Lothlorien would be about > the only place I'd use full color, there and for Galadriel wherever > she showed up (save at the Havens). For much of the rest of the > story, certainly wherever the hobbits were concerned, black and white > would be the best as this most closely allows the reader's imagination > to kick in; as well, it lends itself well to mood and suggestion. > This means all of "The Hobbit" would be filmed in B&W, save perhaps > the Elven fires in Mirkwood and Gandalf's pine grenades, and little > touches like that where a very, very faint hint of color might be > effective. Yes, even in Rivendell in "The Lord of the Rings" I'd use > black and white, with a hint of color perhaps to suggest the fea of > the more powerful of the firstborn and to hint at the power inherent > in Gandalf and Elrond...but I would use color for the stars and night > sky when Bilbo goes out into his garden and for Frodo's dream in the > Hall of Fire (yes, I would definitely film the Hall in black and > white) and perhaps a hint of color for Arwen and especially Aragorn in > that Elvish armor as Frodo sees the two of them as he leaves the Hall. Pretty good! Now, all we need is some Volunteers ;-) -- DISCOVER YOUR MOMMAS NETWORK - A Guide To The Political Demonizers http://www.discoveryourmommasnetwork.org/ ###### From: Belba Grubb From Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:16:19 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> <39p68vF62h4qkU1@individual.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 37 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170452 On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:35:12 +0000, Een Wilde Ier wrote: >Belba Grubb From Stock wrote: >> Yes, I know, but I was woolgathering a bit today and the thought came: >> if I were filming "The Lord of the Rings," Lothlorien would be about >> the only place I'd use full color, there and for Galadriel wherever >> she showed up (save at the Havens). For much of the rest of the >> story, certainly wherever the hobbits were concerned, black and white >> would be the best as this most closely allows the reader's imagination >> to kick in; as well, it lends itself well to mood and suggestion. >> >> This means all of "The Hobbit" would be filmed in B&W, save perhaps >> the Elven fires in Mirkwood and Gandalf's pine grenades, and little >> touches like that where a very, very faint hint of color might be >> effective. Yes, even in Rivendell in "The Lord of the Rings" I'd use >> black and white, with a hint of color perhaps to suggest the fea of >> the more powerful of the firstborn and to hint at the power inherent >> in Gandalf and Elrond...but I would use color for the stars and night >> sky when Bilbo goes out into his garden and for Frodo's dream in the >> Hall of Fire (yes, I would definitely film the Hall in black and >> white) and perhaps a hint of color for Arwen and especially Aragorn in >> that Elvish armor as Frodo sees the two of them as he leaves the Hall. > >Pretty good! Now, all we need is some Volunteers ;-) Oh, I'm gardening again. The folks who will eventually make a good film interpretation of both works are still kids now, I think: one has to wait for the works to enter the public domain, so a labor of love can be created and the sound of "ka-ching!" won't interfere with all the lovely Elven and Hobbit music or the cry of wild birds near the shores of the Sea or the soughing of the wind in the long grass of the Westfold. In the meantime, one can make suggestions, in case one or more of them are picked up. Barb ###### From: Een Wilde Ier Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:48:04 +0000 Lines: 48 Message-ID: <39u1n3F6768diU1@individual.net> References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> <39p68vF62h4qkU1@individual.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: individual.net AOvU7r8HtaRraiXHgOHQKALzHh+h+E9bd99/fKe0uundpg7gke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170499 Belba Grubb From Stock wrote: > On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:35:12 +0000, Een Wilde Ier > wrote: > >>Belba Grubb From Stock wrote: >> >>>Yes, I know, but I was woolgathering a bit today and the thought came: >>>if I were filming "The Lord of the Rings," Lothlorien would be about >>>the only place I'd use full color, there and for Galadriel wherever >>>she showed up (save at the Havens). For much of the rest of the >>>story, certainly wherever the hobbits were concerned, black and white >>>would be the best as this most closely allows the reader's imagination >>>to kick in; as well, it lends itself well to mood and suggestion. >>> >>>This means all of "The Hobbit" would be filmed in B&W, save perhaps >>>the Elven fires in Mirkwood and Gandalf's pine grenades, and little >>>touches like that where a very, very faint hint of color might be >>>effective. Yes, even in Rivendell in "The Lord of the Rings" I'd use >>>black and white, with a hint of color perhaps to suggest the fea of >>>the more powerful of the firstborn and to hint at the power inherent >>>in Gandalf and Elrond...but I would use color for the stars and night >>>sky when Bilbo goes out into his garden and for Frodo's dream in the >>>Hall of Fire (yes, I would definitely film the Hall in black and >>>white) and perhaps a hint of color for Arwen and especially Aragorn in >>>that Elvish armor as Frodo sees the two of them as he leaves the Hall. >> >>Pretty good! Now, all we need is some Volunteers ;-) > Oh, I'm gardening again. The folks who will eventually make a good > film interpretation of both works are still kids now, I think: one has > to wait for the works to enter the public domain, so a labor of love > can be created and the sound of "ka-ching!" won't interfere with all > the lovely Elven and Hobbit music or the cry of wild birds near the > shores of the Sea or the soughing of the wind in the long grass of > the Westfold. In the meantime, one can make suggestions, in case one > or more of them are picked up. Have you seen that Star Wars: Revelations fan-film doing the rounds? http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations/ -- "O'Reilly "forgot" he called Boxer "a nut"" http://mediamatters.org/items/200501270007 ###### Message-ID: <20050323060908.25813.qmail@riot.eu.org> From: Igenlode Author-Supplied-Address: tethys blackhole riot eu org Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:24:29 GMT Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> <20050311055845.19901.qmail@riot.eu.org> <4ko831dq2i5vnghjqq20h5rcib6uiutdcr@4ax.com> Reply-To: Igenlode_W@nym.alias.net Organization: The Ivory Tower ( http://curry.250x.com/Tower ) X-Abuse-Contact: abuse@bananasplit.info Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!news.bananasplit.info!nym2news-x2!nym2news Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:170668 [3rd attempt at posting(!)] On 13 Mar 2005 Belba Grubb From Stock wrote: > On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:00:35 GMT, Igenlode wrote: > > >On 9 Mar 2005 Belba Grubb From Stock wrote: > > > >> Only when the LOTR tale reached the lands of men (Rohan, that is, not > >> Bree, where hobbits also dwell and the moodiness of B&W would work so > >> well) would I start using a version of color film, perhaps generally > >> using something "olde" like what one sees on the old 50s and 60s > >> movies (might want to use this for Bombadil and Goldberry, too) and > >> saving the clear, rich modern color capabilities for highlights and > >> whenever JRRT brings in the high points and/or reveals a character's > >> nobility, etc. > >> > >Of course, to be *really* nit-picky, I'd point out that ye olde colour > >film tended to be very heavy on the "clear, rich" colours and not too hot > >on the moody sepias of modern film... > > Yes, sort of like one of the most obvious differences between Eomer > and Aragorn, no? This had me completely flummoxed, but... [snip] > However, when the Riders of Rohan come on the scene, I see them as > Anglosaxon horsemen might have been depicted in old prints, which did > not use subtle colors. Their grey horses, their flaxen-pale hair, > their painted shields, their burnished coats of mail all would work > well in Technicolor. And then Aragorn rises up out of the ground, > seemingly, and hails them -- at once we can see the difference that > Eomer will soon comment on: > > ...there is something strange about you, Strider...and strange > too is your raiment. ..now I see :-) [snip] > Uh, what is the technical name for "modern color techniques"? That's > very bulky to say but I don't have the knowledge to hunt for the > correct term on the Net. > I'm afraid I don't know; I'm the merest amateur in such matters. I can tell you that Eastmancolor [sp?] was invented after Technicolor and used colour negative film which fades (whereas Technicolour was actually filmed on triple strips of *black and white* film and subsequently dyed in three different colours), but that's as much as I've managed to pick up on the fringes of film history ;-) What they use nowadays I haven't the foggiest... -- Igenlode Lurker Extraordinaire ** One good hope is worth a cartload of certainties ** ###### From: Morgoth's Curse Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Message-ID: References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.646 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.158.219.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr19.news.prodigy.com 1112605007 ST000 4.158.219.107 (Mon, 04 Apr 2005 04:56:47 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 04:56:47 EDT Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: FKPO@SRD[ZTMBR@[TROFO_@@USXB@DTMNHWB_EYLJZ]BGIELCNSKQFCY@TXDX_WHSVB]ZEJLSNY\^J[CUVSA_QLFC^RQHUPH[P[NRWCCMLSNPOD_ESALHUK@TDFUZHBLJ\XGKL^NXA\EVHSP[D_C^B_^JCX^W]CHBAX]POG@SSAZQ\LE[DCNMUPG_VSC@VJM Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 08:56:47 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr19.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!d7ceaebf!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:171127 On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:29:27 GMT, Drude wrote: >When a person makes a film of a book, there's no way to appease every >reader of that book, as any book can be interpreted so differently from >one reader to the next, so... filmmakers (directors, writers, etc...) >interpret the book as THEY perceive it, and try to keep the book fans >happy as generally as possible. But, ultimately, it is the FILMMAKER'S >vision which makes it to the screen, and that's as it should be, as the >film is the FILMMAKER'S work. It has ceased to be a novel, and is now a >film. It is a different piece of art, simply inspired by the original >book. > >To make the film your way, you are bowing to the pressures of each and >every person who read that book, and that is the way BAD films are made >in the world today -- by committee. > >Say what you will about PJ's version of LOTR, it is ultimately HIS >vision of Tolkien's words and worlds, and nothing will change that, and >that's the way it should be. Then surely you agree that Jackson had a moral obligation to change the title of his film? By naming his film "The Lord of the Rings," Jackson was effectively making a promise to fans that he would render TOLKIEN'S vision rather than his own. In other words, he was deliberately exploiting the labor, love and wisdom that J. R. R. Tolkien poured into the book as well as the millions of fans who loved it. Yet the final product that he delivered had very little to do with Tolkien's vision. It should be obvious that Jackson is guilty of the nefarious practice of "bait and switch." Morgoth's Curse ###### From: Derek Broughton Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Followup-To: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:02:31 -0300 Organization: PointerStop consulting Lines: 15 Message-ID: <7i88i2-l86.ln1@othello.pointerstop.ca> References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Trace: individual.net KIMwlYpIo5jDKEmr09gyGwB2Ui24BmlpJrE+pK1ZW758vW7iur X-Orig-Path: othello.pointerstop.ca!news User-Agent: KNode/0.9.0 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:171142 Morgoth's Curse wrote: >>Say what you will about PJ's version of LOTR, it is ultimately HIS >>vision of Tolkien's words and worlds, and nothing will change that, and >>that's the way it should be. > > Then surely you agree that Jackson had a moral obligation to change > the title of his film?  By naming his film "The Lord of the Rings," > Jackson was effectively making a promise to fans that he would render > TOLKIEN'S vision rather than his own Oh, you're so right. In the tradition of other such cinematic revisions, he should rightly have called it "J.R.R.Tolkien's Lord of the Rings" :-) -- derek ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:13:52 -0400 Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3behjqF6grpnqU21@individual.net> References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> <7i88i2-l86.ln1@othello.pointerstop.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: individual.net xqKtTjy99QQAKbNH7+U+kQbyrnU2tWA44JbgEUgd6sXvtOKn/N User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:171159 "Derek Broughton" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Morgoth's Curse wrote: > >>>Say what you will about PJ's version of LOTR, it is ultimately HIS >>>vision of Tolkien's words and worlds, and nothing will change that, and >>>that's the way it should be. >> >> Then surely you agree that Jackson had a moral obligation to change >> the title of his film?  By naming his film "The Lord of the Rings," >> Jackson was effectively making a promise to fans that he would render >> TOLKIEN'S vision rather than his own > >Oh, you're so right. In the tradition of other such cinematic revisions, he >should rightly have called it "J.R.R.Tolkien's Lord of the Rings" :-) I've noticed that too. "Mary Shelley's Frankenstein" was the least faithful adaptation I've ever seen, and I think Gore Vidal sued to have his name removed from "Gore Vidal's Caligula". -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Lines: 93 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 07:27:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.108 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1112686052 172.27.158.108 (Tue, 05 Apr 2005 10:27:32 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 10:27:32 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:171164 In message , Morgoth's Curse enriched us with: > > Then surely you agree that Jackson had a moral obligation to change > the title of his film? By naming his film "The Lord of the Rings," > Jackson was effectively making a promise to fans that he would render > TOLKIEN'S vision rather than his own. No, I think it is well understood that you cannot, in general, expect a cinematic adaption to be 'true' to the original, whether book or whatever. When seeing a film that is 'based on' this or that book and released under the same name, you normally know that what is meant is that it is 'loosely inspired by'; only that doesn't sound quite as nice ;-) Jackson, however, went further than this -- he /explicitly/ promised to fans that he would render Tolkien's vision: Extended 'The Fellowship of the Ring' DVD set. DVD #3 - From Book to Idea, 'J. R. R. Tolkien - Creator of Middle-earth' Starting 10' 30" Peter Jackson says: "The themes of Tolkien are another way of honouring the book, because, you know, as we were saying, there's _so_ much detail that you ultimately can't - ... you can't recreate the world of 'The Lord of the Rings', you know, with everything in the books, but the _thematic_ material is obivously critically important to translate that from book to film, because the themes are (automatically?) at the heart of any book, and Tolkien's themes in particular were in his heart." Starting 22' 4" Peter Jackson says: " As filmmakers and writers we had no interest whatsoever in putting our judgement, our baggage into these movies. We just thought we should take what Tolkien cared about clearly, that we should take those and we should put them into the film. This should ultimately _be__Tolkien's__film_, it shouldn't be ours." When first seeing this, I was much encouraged. Not that there was nothing to complain about in FotR, but in general that film was very good /also/ as an adaption of Tolkien, and this gave me the hope that the rest of Jackson's trilogy would follow in the same track. Needless to say that I was deeply disappointed in that hope. In the end Jackson made his own films, /not/ Tolkien's, which, though it breaks with the promise quoted above, rather is as it should be: he is a maker of films, and as such he should attempt to make good films rather than faithful films (the latter endeavour can rarely, if not never, be combined with the former, except, perhaps, when both versions are created in concert as was the case, as far as I understand, with Kurbrik's & Clarke's '2001 A Space Odyssey'). A pity that Jackson had to make a statement like the above -- gullible fools such as myself thought he might mean it . . . > Yet the final product that he delivered had very little to do with > Tolkien's vision. Well -- except perhaps exactly that: vision ;-) Visually I have nothing to say against the films -- the /visual/ recreation of Middle-earth was as close to perfect as could be hoped for. > It should be obvious that Jackson is guilty of the nefarious > practice of "bait and switch." I am sure that the English, as is the Danish, language is well supplied with words to describe people who make a promise without even the intention of keeping it. On the other hand I prefer to restrict the name-calling to myself for being such a gullible fool: "You're nowt but a ninnyhammer, Troels Forchhammer!" ;-) -- Troels Forchhammer Valid e-mail is t.forch(a)email.dk The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the same level of thinking with which we created them. - Albert Einstein ###### From: "Shanahan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 15:54:25 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-588.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:171191 Morgoth's Curse typed: > On Thu, Drude wrote: > >> When a person makes a film of a book, there's no way to appease >> every reader of that book, as any book can be interpreted so >> differently from one reader to the next, so... filmmakers >> (directors, writers, etc...) interpret the book as THEY perceive it, >> Say what you will about PJ's version of LOTR, it is ultimately HIS >> vision of Tolkien's words and worlds, and nothing will change that, >> and that's the way it should be. > > Then surely you agree that Jackson had a moral obligation to change > the title of his film? By naming his film "The Lord of the Rings," > Jackson was effectively making a promise to fans that he would render > TOLKIEN'S vision rather than his own. In other words, he was > deliberately exploiting the labor, love and wisdom that J. R. R. > Tolkien poured into the book as well as the millions of fans who > loved it. Nonsense. You and Jackson simply disagree as to what is a faithful rendering of Tolkien. It wasn't a deep dark plot on Jackson's part. He did what he did in good faith. He's just kind of an idiot sometimes. (As with Wargs, and lembas thievery.) > Yet the final product that he delivered had very little to > do with Tolkien's vision. On the contrary, I think the tragedy of Jackson's film is that he got too close to Tolkien's vision. The few terrible blunders he made (and believe me, they bother me as much as they do you) stand out like sore thumbs precisely because so much of it is close to being right. It wouldn't hurt nearly as much, had he diverged utterly from the source material, as earlier hideous film attempts did. Then we could've just comfortably ignored it, or made much silly fun of it. Ciaran S. -- 'That's what happens in life, Dom. You're going about your own business, and then somebody throws away your lembas bread." - billy boyd ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Suppose you were filming TH and LOTR... Message-ID: <3jfi511701b54c3a3hmr49ur70cu92e86d@4ax.com> References: <05ut215hsquu45a33d6u3dh1nj01lm9lr5@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:54:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.121.59.146 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net 1113144842 165.121.59.146 (Sun, 10 Apr 2005 07:54:02 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 07:54:02 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!53e16bff!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:171334 "Troels Forchhammer" wrote: >No, I think it is well understood that you cannot, in general, expect a >cinematic adaption to be 'true' to the original, whether book or >whatever. When seeing a film that is 'based on' this or that book and >released under the same name, you normally know that what is meant is >that it is 'loosely inspired by'; only that doesn't sound quite as nice >;-) This depends on what you mean by "true to". Consider, for example, /The Satan Bug/: the book is set in England; the movie is set in the USA the book (IIRC) has no love-interest for the hero; the movie (inevitably) does the investigation in the film is less intricate than in the book (probably unavoidable if a film of reasonable length is desired) the villain's motive in the book is simple, comprehensible and sane [1]; the villain's motive in the movie is megalomaniacal and insane the climactic struggle in the book is integral to the plot, believable and easily filmed; the climactic struggle in the book is the result of a major surprise, less believable (but not unbelievable), and probably harder to film (aerial action versus ground-based action). And yet, the movie undeniably captures the book -- something PJ failed to do. IMHO, of course. Note: [1] The motive is, in fact, so simple, comprehensible and sane that at least one other film has used it successfully. -- I still mostly download on Saturdays & upload on Sundays. Patience is a virtue.