From: "Alexander Brunk" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Maglor's Fate Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:28:37 -0500 Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Lines: 6 Sender: gte637z@adsl-219-130-172.aep.bellsouth.net Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: adsl-219-130-172.aep.bellsouth.net X-Trace: news-int2.gatech.edu 1107473332 441 68.219.130.172 (3 Feb 2005 23:28:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news-int2.gatech.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 23:28:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!canoe.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-ext.gatech.edu!news-int.gatech.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168458 I looked and looked for this on the FAQ, but couldn't find an entry. Is there a conensus as to Maglor's fate? Is there any information that Tolkien reveals in any of his letters or in any of the HOME books regarding what he was doing throughout the second and third ages? Or did he die? ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Maglor's Fate Date: 4 Feb 2005 06:37:57 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net nLZxnD4gvSUzI0KdyiCk9QXRhCb8/6qgDsk/dEok9h+ljRBjkw User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168472 On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:28:37 -0500, Alexander Brunk wrote: > I looked and looked for this on the FAQ, but couldn't find an entry. Is > there a conensus as to Maglor's fate? Is there any information that Tolkien > reveals in any of his letters or in any of the HOME books regarding what he > was doing throughout the second and third ages? Or did he die? I don't know of any references beyond Silm. Who knows, maybe he still wanders the beaches of Northwestern Europe. :-) -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: "Halion" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Maglor's Fate Date: 4 Feb 2005 03:49:37 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 28 Message-ID: <1107517777.085788.134550@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.10.174.66 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: posting.google.com 1107517781 30394 127.0.0.1 (4 Feb 2005 11:49:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:49:41 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: G2/0.2 Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=195.10.174.66; posting-account=xaKT6w0AAABfcYJlgWSyDVhpaC2ril1W Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!209.11.36.156.MISMATCH!nntp-server.pubsub.com!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168476 Alexander Brunk wrote: > I looked and looked for this on the FAQ, but couldn't find an entry. Is > there a conensus as to Maglor's fate? Is there any information that Tolkien > reveals in any of his letters or in any of the HOME books regarding what he > was doing throughout the second and third ages? Or did he die? Maglor's death is mentioned in letter #131: "The remaining two Silmarils are regained from the Iron Crown - only to be lost. The last two sons of Fëanor, compelled by their oath, steal them, and are destroyed by them, casting themselves into the sea, and the pits of the earth." and in HoMe III: The Lays of Beleriand, in the 'Lay of Leithian Recommenced': "No other player has there been, no other lips or fingers seen so skilled, 'tis said in elven-lore, save Maelor son of Fëanor, forgotten harper, singer doomed, who young when Laurelin yet bloomed to endless lamentation passed and in the tombless sea was cast." ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Maglor's Fate Date: 4 Feb 2005 17:27:26 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <1107517777.085788.134550@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net 2iHnGAV5GFz/o/oa5RFqOg3zvbnRaJ6zAFfePnGq1UCqPaHV2P User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168491 On 4 Feb 2005 03:49:37 -0800, Halion wrote: > Alexander Brunk wrote: >> I looked and looked for this on the FAQ, but couldn't find an entry. > Is >> there a conensus as to Maglor's fate? Is there any information that > Tolkien >> reveals in any of his letters or in any of the HOME books regarding > what he >> was doing throughout the second and third ages? Or did he die? > > Maglor's death is mentioned in letter #131: > > "The remaining two Silmarils are regained from the Iron Crown - only to > be lost. The last two sons of Fëanor, compelled by their oath, steal > them, and are destroyed by them, casting themselves into the sea, and > the pits of the earth." > > and in HoMe III: The Lays of Beleriand, in the 'Lay of Leithian > Recommenced': > > "No other player has there been, > no other lips or fingers seen > so skilled, 'tis said in elven-lore, > save Maelor son of Fëanor, > forgotten harper, singer doomed, > who young when Laurelin yet bloomed > to endless lamentation passed > and in the tombless sea was cast." Interesting. I have forgotten or completely missed these passages. Good detective work! -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Maglor's Fate Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable References: <1107517777.085788.134550@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 29 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1107547218 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 04 Feb 2005 14:00:18 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 14:00:18 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: mvQMd-22557-45-4524@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 3436a086 db64a6ee f45488e4 05a07d19 3709b243 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 20:00:18 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168498 Quoth "Halion" in article <1107517777.085788.134550@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>: > > Is there a conensus as to Maglor's fate? > Maglor's death is mentioned in letter #131: ... > and in HoMe III: The Lays of Beleriand, in the 'Lay of Leithian > Recommenced': Well, will you look at that. I didn't remember those references at all (I think I misread the comments in Letter #131 as referring to the Silmarils rather than to their bearers). Are they Tolkien's final statement on the matter? My impression for years had been that he left Maglor's fate deliberately unclear. (You can find a thread that I started on this topic back in 1998 using Google Groups; the subject was "The Fates of Minstrels". It looks like the discussion got derailed by personal grudges before it went very far, unfortunately.) At the very least, the version of Maglor's story in the published _Silmarillion_ doesn't say anything about his death (and in fact implies that the Elves never saw him again); I wonder what base text that passage was taken from. So in short, what _are_ all of the references to Maglor's final fate in Tolkien's writings? I'll actually be a bit sad if these two "threw himself into the sea" lines end up being the final word; I rather liked the idea of Maglor wandering the coasts for ages on end. (And it would detract so much from my contributions to our E-text! :) ) Steuard Jensen ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Maglor's Fate Date: 4 Feb 2005 21:18:48 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <1107517777.085788.134550@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net rN0SKchwGl49FhnbMwqMGgFswLNhn7+S2PoC4RR0f1FPkI10as User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168503 On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 20:00:18 GMT, Steuard Jensen wrote: > > So in short, what _are_ all of the references to Maglor's final fate > in Tolkien's writings? I'll actually be a bit sad if these two "threw > himself into the sea" lines end up being the final word; I rather > liked the idea of Maglor wandering the coasts for ages on end. (And > it would detract so much from my contributions to our E-text! :) ) Hoo boy! Sounds like Tolkien Textual History 101, Professor Jensen presiding. I guess we'd have to look at the source of those final bits of the published Silm. I'm guessing that the material that made up Earendil's journey into the West and the War of Wrath were probably from a source like the Grey Annals, since that was obviously a part of the story that was never written in narrative form. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: Conrad Dunkerson Reply-To: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Maglor's Fate References: <1107517777.085788.134550@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 57 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 13:52:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.153.212.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: trndny09 1107611546 141.153.212.200 (Sat, 05 Feb 2005 08:52:26 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 08:52:26 EST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trndny09.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168526 Steuard Jensen wrote: > Quoth "Halion" : >>Maglor's death is mentioned in letter #131: Towards the end of 1951. >>and in HoMe III: The Lays of Beleriand, in the 'Lay of Leithian >>Recommenced': Circa 1955. > Are they Tolkien's final statement on the matter? Yes and no. > At the very least, the version of Maglor's story in the published > _Silmarillion_ doesn't say anything about his death (and in fact > implies that the Elves never saw him again); I wonder what base text > that passage was taken from. Originally; "And it is told of Maglor that he could not endure the pain with which the Silmaril tormented him; and he cast it at last into the sea, and thereafter he wandered ever upon the shores singing in pain and regret beside the waves." LROW, Quenta Silmarillion - Conclusion ~25 (Circa 1937) Tolkien's major post LotR reworkings (Later Quenta Silmarillion and Grey Annals) stopped before reaching this point in the text. However, around 1958 Tolkien had the above text retyped and then made extensive adjustments to it - which can be found in WotJ, The Later Quenta Silmarillion - The Last Chapters of the Quenta Silmarillion (pg 247). In that revision he made changes both before and after the text quoted above, but left this passage unchanged. It was this final version which CT used for the published Silmarillion, as can be seen by; "Then Eonwe as herald of the Elder King summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth. But Maedhros and Maglor would not hearken..." Silm, Of the Voyage of Earendil The 1937 version had Fionwe and only Maedhros 'not hearkening'. The 1958 version used Eonwe and introduced 'Maedhros AND Maglor not hearkening'. There are various other 1958 alterations which CT brought into the published Silmarillion so he definitely used that text... though he removed the 'Second Prophecy' from the end. So... Tolkien wrote around 1937 that 'it is told' Maglor would wander the shores. Then around 1951 and 1955 he wrote that Maglor drowned. Finally circa 1958 he made revisions to a copy of the 1937 text and left Maglor 'told to have wandered the shores'. He could have missed it, changed his mind back to 'wandering', or wanted to leave Maglor's fate vague (though possibly having it as drowning in his own mind). ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1107517777.085788.134550@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Maglor's Fate Lines: 13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 15:07:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1107616055 82.43.126.102 (Sat, 05 Feb 2005 15:07:35 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 15:07:35 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!proxad.net!proxad.net!194.117.148.138.MISMATCH!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168529 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > Steuard Jensen wrote: >> Are they Tolkien's final statement on the matter? > > Yes and no. "Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes." :-)