From: "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk>
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R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote:

<snip>

[Elladan and Elrohir helping Aragorn's claim]

> Just the fact that they are lordly Elves helps: it harkens back to the
> Last Alliance and the earliest Kings. That they can offer (on behalf
> of Elrond as well as themselves) reasonably first-hand confirmation of
> Aragorn's bloodline helps. The relationship to Arwen is a huge plus.
> Winning the hand of an Elf maiden is major stuff. While it doesn't
> prove his royal lineage, it certainly helps sell him as a Real Hero.
> Finally, I'll bet they were great spokesmen what with their handsome
> Elvish looks and long experience and all the linguistic excellence of
> the House of Elrond soaked into their very cores.

[Linguistic excellence? Where does that come from??]

OK, I just had to go and see if what they (the sons of Elrond) actually
say and do in the book is impressive or not, and whether or not people
(either the characters in the book, or the readers of the book) might be
impressed with them. I realise you are speculating about things in
general, which would include "off-stage" activity, but from what I
remember they only play minor roles in the book from the reader's
point-of-view (probably a hobbit point-of-view). My conclusion is that
they are fairly well fleshed out minor characters (*), but that a lot of
the key stuff was removed to the Appendices.

(*) <sarcasm> Elrohir brings words from Elrond and carries a horn, and
Elladan carries torches and can read a map </sarcasm>

We first hear about them in relation to Arwen and their mother:

"...her brothers, Elladan and Elrohir, were out upon errantry: for they
rode often far afield with the Rangers of the North, forgetting never
their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs." (Many Meetings)

"Elladan and Elrohir have returned out of the Wild unlooked-for, and
they had tidings that I [Aragorn] wished to hear at once." (Many
Meetings)

These first two quotes associate the sons of Elrond with the Dunedain
and Aragorn in particular.

"The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return; they
had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode into a strange
country, but of their errand they would not speak to any save to
Elrond." (The Ring Goes South)

This is the famous 'secret' Lothlorien quote. It talks up the ability of
the two to make 'great' journeys. We don't met them properly until much
later when Aragorn is riding from Isengard to Helm's Deep with Theoden,
Merry, Legolas and Gimli, and the company of Dunedain turn up (all the
following quotes are from 'The Passing of the Grey Company')

"the brethren Elladan and Elrohir have ridden with us, desiring to go to
the war."

This again shows the bonds between the sons of Elrond and the Dunedain,
but does not shed a lot of light on the motivations for them desiring to
go to the war. All we have so far is the previous quote about their
mother's torment in the dens of the orcs, which might be enough. We soon
learn more though:

"Elrohir said to him: 'I bring word to you from my father: The days are
short. If thou art in haste, remember the Paths of the Dead.'

'Always my days have seemed to me too short to achieve my desire,'
answered Aragorn. 'But great indeed will be my haste ere I take that
road.'

'That will soon be seen,' said Elrohir. 'But let us speak no more of
these things upon the open road!'"

So they bring counsel from Elrond. But, important though that is, it
might be incidential to them riding forth.

"And have you marked the brethren Elladan and Elrohir? Less sombre is
their gear than the others', and they are fair and gallant as
Elven-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of
Rivendell."

"two tall men, neither young nor old So much alike were they, the sons
of Elrond, that few could tell them apart: dark-haired, grey-eyed, and
their faces elven-fair, clad alike in bright mail beneath cloaks of
silver-grey."

[The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young] Maybe Elrond has
been experimenting with cloning?

"This is the word that the sons of Elrond bring to me from their father
in Rivendell, wisest in lore: Bid Aragorn remember the words of the
seer, and the Paths of the Dead.'"

Obviously Elrohir has said more, now that they are no longer on the open
road, and Aragorn tells the others what is guiding his decisions.

"no mightier men had she seen than the Dunedain and the fair sons of
Elrond"

This throw-away quote from Eowyn, again talks up the appearance of the
sons of Elrond and the Dunedain. The next few quotes just give Elladan
and Elrohir something to do and say, though it does show them working
closely together with Aragorn and the Dunedain:

"Aragorn had brought torches from Dunharrow, and now he went ahead
bearing one aloft; and Elladan with another went at the rear..."

"...Aragorn kneeling, while Elladan held aloft both torches. Before him
were the bones of a mighty man."

"Behind them rode Elladan, last of the Company, but not the last of
those that took the downward road."

"'Yes, the Dead ride behind. They have been summoned,' said Elladan."

"'Where in Middle-earth are we?' said Gimli; and Elladan answered: 'We
have descended from the uprising of the Morthond, the long chill river
that flows at last to the sea that washes the walls of Dol Amroth."

This quote shows that the sons of Elrond (or at least Elladan) are
learned in geography and maybe have journeyed in this land before.

"Then Elrohir gave to Aragorn a silver horn, and he blew upon it..."

Though this quote is interesting. Elrohir, the one who speaks for his
father, is the one that carries this silver horn that is used to summon
the Dead, or rather to rally them, as they have already been summoned.

The next place we meet Elladan and Elrohir is in battle:

"Elladan and Elrohir with stars on their brow" (The Battle of the
Pelennor Fields)

"he did off the Star of the North Kingdom and gave it to the keeping of
the sons of Elrond." (The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)

So the sons of Elrond are shown at the front of the battle, and are
later entrusted with a key heirloom of the North Kingdom, and they have
stars on their brows as well, marking them as having stature little less
than that of Aragorn, being as they are, also descendents of Earendil.

"And Aragorn arose and went out, and he sent for the sons of Elrond, and
together they laboured far into the night." (The Houses of Healing)

Like Elrond, their father, they are obviously masters at healing. Then
in the next two quotes the wisdom comes to the fore:

"And there they took counsel together with Gandalf and Aragorn and the
sons of Elrond." (The Last Debate)

"Then said Elrohir: 'From the North we came with this purpose, and from
Elrond our father we brought this very counsel. We will not turn back.'"
(The Last Debate)

The next few quotes show their stature among the hierarchy of the
knights of the Army of the West:

"and another company of five hundred horse there should be, among which
should ride the sons of Elrond with the Dunedain and the knights of Dol
Amroth" (The Last Debate)

"Legolas and Gimli were to ride again together in the company of Aragorn
and Gandalf, who went in the van with the Dunedain and the sons of
Elrond." (The Black Gate Opens)

The key quote is this one:

"There was Gandalf as chief herald, and Aragorn with the sons of Elrond,
and Eomer of Rohan, and Imrahil; and Legolas and Gimli and Peregrin were
bidden to go also, so that all the enemies of Mordor should have a
witness." (The Black Gate Opens)

The sons of Elrond are listed only behind Aragorn and Gandalf, much as
in the similar but less formal quote about them taking counsel together
(5 quotes up in the post).

"But in the front towards Mordor where the first bitter assault would
come there stood the sons of Elrond on the left with the Dunedain about
them, and on the right the Prince Imrahil with the men of Dol Amroth
tall and fair, and picked men of the Tower of Guard." (The Black Gate
Opens)

And here, the sons of Elrond are again named at the forefront of the
battle, and associated with the Dunedain, and picked to face the brunt
of the coming battle.

Later, after the battle:

"'Lo! lords and knights and men of valour unashamed, kings and princes,
and fair people of Gondor, and Riders of Rohan, and ye sons of Elrond,
and Dunedain of the North, and Elf and Dwarf, and greathearts of the
Shire, and all free folk of the West, now listen to my lay. For I will
sing to you of Frodo of the Nine Fingers and the Ring of Doom.'" (The
Field of Cormallen)

The bard gives a comprehansive and poetic listing of the people present,
and the sons of Elrond are mentioned. It seems like they do stand out
from the crowd, and are matters of mighty legend.

The last few quotes from the book proper, tie up loose ends:

"...on the eighth day of May the Riders of Rohan made ready, and rode
off by the North-way, and with them went the sons of Elrond." (The
Steward and the King)

June 14: The sons of Elrond meet the escort and bring Arwen to Edoras.
(an extra snippet of information from Appendix B, ToY)

"First rode Elrohir and Elladan with a banner of silver [the arrival of
Arwen at Minas Tirith]" (The Steward and the King)

"and Arwen Evenstar remained also, and she said farewell to her
brethren." (Many Partings)

I initially thought this 'brethren' referred to all the Elves there, but
I suppose it might specifically mean her brothers. Does brethren refer
just to brothers and sisters, or can it also, for example, mean
Galadriel (who is her grandmother)? The later quotes seem to imply that
Elladan and Elrohir could have visited Arwen again many times, but maybe
this 'farewell' from Arwen means that Elladan and Elrohir did eventually
depart West, after Elrond, but before Celeborn (if Celeborn did go
West).

The gaps in the story of Elladan and Elrohir are then filled in in the
Appendices. Some key facts emerge:

Elladan and Elrohir are born in T.A. 130
Arwen is born in T.A. 241

Elladan and Elrohir are 2879 years old during the War of the Ring.
Arwen is 2778 years old during the War of the Ring

"...to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with
him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal
and die in Middle-earth. For Elrond, therefore, all chances of the War
of the Ring were fraught with sorrow." (Appendix A)

This casts a new light on the riding of the sons of Elrond to the war.
And the question of the fate of Elladan and Elrohir is seemingly not as
clear as this quote (and later ones) makes out.

"[Celebrian, mother of Elrond's children] was seized and carried off.
She was pursued and rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, but not before she
had suffered torment and had received a poisoned wound.  She was brought
back to Imladris, and though healed in body by Elrond, lost all delight
in Middle-earth, and the next year went to the Havens and passed over
Sea." (Appendix A)

"...Orcs, multiplying again in the Misty Mountains, begin to ravage the
lands, and the Dunedain and the sons of Elrond fought with them." (after
the waylaying of Celebrian, mother of Elrond's children, Appendix A)

This expands the two quotes from the book.

"Aragorn was only two years old when Arathorn went riding against the
Orcs with the sons of Elrond, and he was slain by an orc-arrow that
pierced his eye..." (T.A. 2933, Appendix A)

And this makes a direct connection between Aragorn and the sons of
Elrond. They knew his father, and were there when he died.

"Elrond took the place of his [Aragorn's] father and came to love him as
a son of his own." (Appendix A)

And presumably, Aragorn knew the sons of Elrond, growing up as he did in
the house of Elrond. The next quote confirms this:

"...when Estel was only twenty years of age, it chanced that he returned
to Rivendell after great deeds in the company of the sons of Elrond.
(Appendix A)

I guess this time they kept a close eye out for any arrows, not wanting
_this_ Heir of Isildur to be slain like Arathorn was...  :-)

"Yet I marvel at Elrond and your brothers; for though I have dwelt in
this house from childhood, I have heard no word of you." (Aragorn
speaking to Arwen, Appendix A)

But Elladan and Elrohir have forgotten to mention little sis.

"Do not wonder! For the children of Elrond have the life of the Eldar."
(Arwen speaking to Aragorn, Appendix A)

Aragorn sees the elven-light in her eyes. I wonder if he saw this in the
eyes of Elladan and Elrohir?

"But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and
the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you
or with Middle-earth." (Aragorn speaking to Elrond, Appendix A)

"There [Rivendell], though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained,
together with some of the High-elven folk." (Prologue to LotR)

"...after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of
his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond."
(Appendix B)

So what happened to Elladan and Elrohir in the end?

Christopher

-- 
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

######

From: "Öjevind Lång" <dnivejo.gnal@swipnet.se>
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:5ZrId.15912

[snip]

> "and Arwen Evenstar remained also, and she said farewell to her
> brethren." (Many Partings)
>
> I initially thought this 'brethren' referred to all the Elves there, but
> I suppose it might specifically mean her brothers. Does brethren refer
> just to brothers and sisters, or can it also, for example, mean
> Galadriel (who is her grandmother)?

No, I'm quite sure Tolkien only referred to Arwen's btothers.

 >The later quotes seem to imply that
> Elladan and Elrohir could have visited Arwen again many times, but maybe
> this 'farewell' from Arwen means that Elladan and Elrohir did eventually
> depart West, after Elrond, but before Celeborn (if Celeborn did go
> West).

I believe there is a statement somewhre that Elrond's sons also choose to
remain in Middle-earth, though for other reasons than Arwen.
  Excellent work picking out all the passages mentioning Elladan and
Elrohir. :-)

[snip]

> "Yet I marvel at Elrond and your brothers; for though I have dwelt in
> this house from childhood, I have heard no word of you." (Aragorn
> speaking to Arwen, Appendix A)
>
> But Elladan and Elrohir have forgotten to mention little sis.

That is almost as weird as the fact that neither Gandalf nor Boromir nor
Elrond make any mention of Faramir. Of course, the story-external reason for
that is that Faramir simply turned up in ithilien, and that Tolkien had no
idea he existed before he stood there.

Öjevind

######

From: TT Arvind <ttarvind@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
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Wes ðu Öjevind Lång hal!

> I believe there is a statement somewhre that Elrond's sons also choose to
> remain in Middle-earth, though for other reasons than Arwen.

The only think I can remember is the statement from Letter 153, which 
says that "The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told; they 
delay their choice, and remain for a while."  This does not really 
indicate whether or not they remain permanently in Middle Earth.  Is 
there something else somewhere?

-- 
Arvind

Conway's Law:  In any organization there will always be one person who 
knows what is going on.  This person must be fired.

######

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On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:49:05 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:


>I initially thought this 'brethren' referred to all the Elves there, but
>I suppose it might specifically mean her brothers. Does brethren refer
>just to brothers and sisters, or can it also, for example, mean
>Galadriel (who is her grandmother)? The later quotes seem to imply that
>Elladan and Elrohir could have visited Arwen again many times, but maybe
>this 'farewell' from Arwen means that Elladan and Elrohir did eventually
>depart West, after Elrond, but before Celeborn (if Celeborn did go
>West).
>
"Brethren" literally means " brothers". It's simply an older English
version of the plural. I guess of the same form as "children". It can
be used in a figurative sense to include companions, as brother is
used in "Band of Brothers", or Henry V's speech at Agincourt, "He who
sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother", but it would
never be used to include a grandmother in that sense.

According to the epilogue to the Lord of the Rings, published in HoME,
Elladan and Elrohir were present when Sam took his family to visit
Aragorn and Arwen when they came north and stayed on the shores of
Lake Evendim, so Arwen's farewell to them at Edoras wasn't final.


--
Alison

######

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"Öjevind Lång" <dnivejo.gnal@swipnet.se> writes:
> That is almost as weird as the fact that neither Gandalf nor Boromir nor
> Elrond make any mention of Faramir. [...]

_The Council of Elrond_, Boromir speaking:

   "Four only were saved by swimming: my brother and myself and two others.
    [...]
    For on the eve of the sudden assault a dream came to my brother
    in a troubled sleep; and afterwards a like dream came oft to him again,
    and once to me."

But that's the only reference I remember.
-- 
mailto:jjk@acm.org                 As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
  http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/        so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]

######

From: "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Alison <news.poster@ntlworld.com> wrote:

<snip>

> "Brethren" literally means " brothers". It's simply an older English
> version of the plural. I guess of the same form as "children".

Ah. Thanks. Is there an equivalent for sister?

In fact, are the etymologies different? Thinking back on my French,
sister and soeur look vaguely similar, but brother and frere look very
different.

www.etymonline.com

Tells me brother is from "O.E. broþor, from P.Gmc. *brothar, from PIE
base *bhrater (cf. Gk. phratér "a brother," L. frater "a brother," O.Ir.
brathir, Skt. bhrátár- "a brother," Goth. bróþar "a brother," O.Prus.
brati "brother," O.C.S. bratru)."

And also that "Alternate pl. brethren was predominant c.1200-1600s, but
survived only in religious usage."

And that sister is "O.E. sweostor, swuster, or a Scand. cognate (cf.
O.N. systir, Swed. sister, Dan. søster), in either case from P.Gmc.
*swestr- (cf. O.S. swestar, O.Fris. swester, M.Du. suster, Du. zuster,
O.H.G. swester, Ger. Schwester, Goth. swistar), from PIE *swesor, one of
the most persistent and unchanging PIE root words, recognizable in
almost every modern I.E. language (cf. Skt. svasar-, Avestan shanhar-,
L. soror, O.C.S., Rus. sestra, Lith. sesuo, O.Ir. siur, Welsh chwaer,
Gk. eor). Probably from PIE roots *swe- "one's own" + *ser- "woman.""

The bit about sister being "one of the most persistent and unchanging
PIE (Proto-Indo-European) root words" is interesting, but not too
surprising for such a fundamental word.

So no alternative plural for sister, and my naive attempts at etymology
(before looking it up in an online etymological dictionary) are shown up
for what they are...  :-)

> It can be used in a figurative sense to include companions, as brother
is
> used in "Band of Brothers", or Henry V's speech at Agincourt, "He who
> sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother", but it would
> never be used to include a grandmother in that sense.

That might explain the use by Aragorn to describe the relationship
between him and Eomer:

"And last of all Aragorn greeted Eomer of Rohan, and they embraced, and
Aragorn said: 'Between us there can be no word of giving or taking, nor
of reward; for we are brethren. In happy hour did Eorl ride from the
North, and never has any league of peoples been more blessed, so that
neither has ever failed the other, nor shall fail."

I would guess this is like companions, or even like sword-brothers. BTW,
though Aragorn's feelings are completely genuine and honest here, I
think this would be a very diplomatic way to avoid giving someone a
present!!

This got me thinking about the word 'brethren', as I remembered it being
used  a lot in 'The Silmarillion', mainly to refer to the Ainur:

"...in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly."

(General use of brethren to mean companions?)

"Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and
knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. [...]
But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike
those of his brethren."

(This is probably where I got the idea that 'brethren' could refer to a
whole race like Elves or Men, or in this case Ainur. But it is probably
different for the Ainur, for whom the terms probably mean different
things.)

Those quotes were from 'Ainulindale'.
The following are from 'Valaquenta'.

"Manwe and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Iluvatar."

"The Feanturi, masters of spirits, are brethren, and they are called
most often Mandos and Lorien. Yet these are rightly the names of the
places of their dwelling, and their true names are Namo and Irmo."

Found one in the text proper as well:

"For he was yet as one of the Valar, and could change his form, or walk
unclad, as could his brethren..." (Description of Melkor, Of the
Darkening of Valinor)

And also, a true use of brethren to mean brothers:

"...Elrond Half-elven [chose] as was granted to him, to be numbered
among the Eldar; but Elros his brother chose to abide with Men. And from
these brethren alone has come among Men the blood of the Firstborn and a
strain of the spirits divine that were before Arda..." (The Voyage of
Earendil and the War of Wrath)

> According to the epilogue to the Lord of the Rings, published in HoME,
> Elladan and Elrohir were present when Sam took his family to visit
> Aragorn and Arwen when they came north and stayed on the shores of
> Lake Evendim, so Arwen's farewell to them at Edoras wasn't final.

Ooh. I've only read that Epilogue once. That is interesting.

I guess it is not entirely canonical, though it shows what Tolkien
thought at that point (before he published LotR I believe - he was
encouraged to remove that Epilogue). It seems like there are lots of
references to Elladan and Elrohir remaining behind for an indeterminate
amount of time, and the Letters quote from Arvind seems to show that
Tolkien left their ultimate fate a mystery.

Christopher

-- 
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

######

From: Alison <news.poster@ntlworld.com>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
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On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:17:37 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>Alison <news.poster@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> "Brethren" literally means " brothers". It's simply an older English
>> version of the plural. I guess of the same form as "children".
>
>Ah. Thanks. Is there an equivalent for sister?
>

Apparently there was, although it's not used any more.

http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutwords/brethren


--
Alison

######

From: "Öjevind Lång" <dnivejo.gnal@swipnet.se>
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:5NwId.16168

[snip]

> And that sister is "O.E. sweostor, swuster, or a Scand. cognate (cf.
> O.N. systir, Swed. sister, Dan. søster), in either case from P.Gmc.
> *swestr- (cf. O.S. swestar, O.Fris. swester, M.Du. suster, Du. zuster,
> O.H.G. swester, Ger. Schwester, Goth. swistar), from PIE *swesor, one of
> the most persistent and unchanging PIE root words, recognizable in
> almost every modern I.E. language (cf. Skt. svasar-, Avestan shanhar-,
> L. soror, O.C.S., Rus. sestra, Lith. sesuo, O.Ir. siur, Welsh chwaer,
> Gk. eor). Probably from PIE roots *swe- "one's own" + *ser- "woman.""

The Swedish form is "syster", with a y.

Öjevind

######

From: "Öjevind Lång" <dnivejo.gnal@swipnet.se>
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"Jens Kilian" <jjk@acm.org> skrev i meddelandet
news:877jm5z6pw.fsf@gondolin.bb.bawue.de...
> "Öjevind Lång" <dnivejo.gnal@swipnet.se> writes:
> > That is almost as weird as the fact that neither Gandalf nor Boromir nor
> > Elrond make any mention of Faramir. [...]
>
> _The Council of Elrond_, Boromir speaking:
>
>    "Four only were saved by swimming: my brother and myself and two
others.
>     [...]
>     For on the eve of the sudden assault a dream came to my brother
>     in a troubled sleep; and afterwards a like dream came oft to him
again,
>     and once to me."
>
> But that's the only reference I remember.

Say, that's right! And Boromir also mentions that the dream that sent him
north had come both to him and to his brother.

Öjevind

######

From: "Taemon" <Taemon@zonnet.nl>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
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Öjevind Lång wrote:

> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk> skrev i
> meddelandet news:5NwId.16168
> [snip]
> > And that sister is "O.E. sweostor, swuster, or a Scand.
> > cognate (cf. O.N. systir, Swed. sister, Dan. søster),
> > in either case from P.Gmc. *swestr- (cf. O.S. swestar,
> > O.Fris. swester, M.Du. suster, Du. zuster, O.H.G.
> > swester, Ger. Schwester, Goth. swistar), from PIE
> > *swesor, one of the most persistent and unchanging PIE
> > root words, recognizable in almost every modern I.E.
> > language (cf. Skt. svasar-, Avestan shanhar-, L. soror,
> > O.C.S., Rus. sestra, Lith. sesuo, O.Ir. siur, Welsh
> > chwaer, Gk. eor). Probably from PIE roots *swe- "one's
> > own" + *ser- "woman.""
> The Swedish form is "syster", with a y.

We don't use "zuster" for a sibling. We use "zus". Same for
"broeder" and "broer".

T.

######

From: Morgil <morestelx@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 -
 The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
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Belba Grubb From Stock wrote:

> Granted there was the whole matter between him and Aragorn over Arwen,
> but in such an important battle and with his experience with warfare
> in Mordor, why did Elrond send his sons and not come himself?

Because it was *not* an important battle, Elrond did not
sent his sons - they came on their own, and he did not
know such a battle was to be expected in any case.

Morgil

######

From: cburd@islandnet.com (Chris)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
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Alison <news.poster@ntlworld.com> wrote:

<snip>

> "Brethren" literally means " brothers". It's simply an older English
> version of the plural. I guess of the same form as "children".

I believe "children" is actually a double plural. The "proper" plural
of "child" would be "childer", but somehow an extra plural marker got
tacked on the end (like modern German, older English had several
plural endings). It's a bit like saying "hobbitses".

Hmm, besides Gollum, who talks this way? Oh... kids.

I've read that in one black English dialect, the plural of "child" is
"cherns". That makes for a triple plural.

Cheers,

Chris Burd

######

From: Belba Grubb From Stock <barbb@dbtech.net>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:39:20 -0600
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On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:49:05 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

(snip)

>"There was Gandalf as chief herald, and Aragorn with the sons of Elrond,
>and Eomer of Rohan, and Imrahil; and Legolas and Gimli and Peregrin were
>bidden to go also, so that all the enemies of Mordor should have a
>witness." (The Black Gate Opens)
>
>The sons of Elrond are listed only behind Aragorn and Gandalf, much as
>in the similar but less formal quote about them taking counsel together
>(5 quotes up in the post).

I hadn't thought of it until now, but the two were born less than one
yén after their father, squire to the last Elven king, had stood
before this very gate in siege.  Their presence provides a sense of
continuity between the Second and Third ages that Sauron would not
have appreciated at all.

Granted there was the whole matter between him and Aragorn over Arwen,
but in such an important battle and with his experience with warfare
in Mordor, why did Elrond send his sons and not come himself?

Barb
_____

_____
BRAVE men are all vertebrates: they have their softness on
 the surface and their toughness in the middle.
        -- G.K. Chesterton, "Tremendous Trifles
_____

######

NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:11:15 -0600
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
From: Michael Ikeda <mmikeda@erols.com>
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Belba Grubb From Stock <barbb@dbtech.net> wrote in
news:7ltav0p63jsjfbvh45k542jvqfhepaul93@4ax.com: 

(snipped)

> Granted there was the whole matter between him and Aragorn over
> Arwen, but in such an important battle and with his experience
> with warfare in Mordor, why did Elrond send his sons and not
> come himself? 
> 

One possibility is Elrond stayed in case he was needed to help 
protect Rivendell from attack.  Sauron had forces in the Misty 
Mountains and could easily have sent a Nazgul or two there.

-- 
Michael Ikeda    mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

######

NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 18:33:39 -0600
From: nat_mann@yahoo.com (Natman)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 00:32:26 GMT
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On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:39:20 -0600, Belba Grubb From Stock
<barbb@dbtech.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:49:05 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
><spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>(snip)
>
>>"There was Gandalf as chief herald, and Aragorn with the sons of Elrond,
>>and Eomer of Rohan, and Imrahil; and Legolas and Gimli and Peregrin were
>>bidden to go also, so that all the enemies of Mordor should have a
>>witness." (The Black Gate Opens)
>>
>>The sons of Elrond are listed only behind Aragorn and Gandalf, much as
>>in the similar but less formal quote about them taking counsel together
>>(5 quotes up in the post).
>
>I hadn't thought of it until now, but the two were born less than one
>yén after their father, squire to the last Elven king, had stood
>before this very gate in siege.  Their presence provides a sense of
>continuity between the Second and Third ages that Sauron would not
>have appreciated at all.
>
>Granted there was the whole matter between him and Aragorn over Arwen,
>but in such an important battle and with his experience with warfare
>in Mordor, why did Elrond send his sons and not come himself?
>
>Barb
>_____
>
He's been there & done that. 

He's still somewhat bitter about Isildur ignoring his advice to toss
the ring into the fire when it was close at hand. But Noooooooo that
would have been too easy. Now thousands of years later Sauron is still
around causing a bother when Elrond is getting ready to pack up and go
west. 

######

From: "Öjevind Lång" <dnivejo.gnal@swipnet.se>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
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"Natman" <nat_mann@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:41f59358.29738691@netnews.comcast.net...

[snip]

> He's been there & done that.
>
> He's still somewhat bitter about Isildur ignoring his advice to toss
> the ring into the fire when it was close at hand. But Noooooooo that
> would have been too easy. Now thousands of years later Sauron is still
> around causing a bother when Elrond is getting ready to pack up and go
> west.

I suspect he bitterness is something you have transposed from the film. In
the book, the feeling one gets is that Elrond needs to keep an eye on things
from Rivendell. Guard the Misty Mountains, and so on.

Öjevid

######

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From: nat_mann@yahoo.com (Natman)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
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On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:25:49 +0100, "Öjevind Lång"
<dnivejo.gnal@swipnet.se> wrote:

>"Natman" <nat_mann@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
>news:41f59358.29738691@netnews.comcast.net...
>
>[snip]
>
>> He's been there & done that.
>>
>> He's still somewhat bitter about Isildur ignoring his advice to toss
>> the ring into the fire when it was close at hand. But Noooooooo that
>> would have been too easy. Now thousands of years later Sauron is still
>> around causing a bother when Elrond is getting ready to pack up and go
>> west.
>
>I suspect he bitterness is something you have transposed from the film. In
>the book, the feeling one gets is that Elrond needs to keep an eye on things
>from Rivendell. Guard the Misty Mountains, and so on.
>
>Öjevid
>
>
The bitterness was certainly emphasized more in the film, but the
following quote from the Council of Elrond shows that he was not happy
about the ring not being destroyed:

"`Alas! yes,' said Elrond. `Isildur took it, as should not have been.
It should have been cast then into Orodruin's fire nigh at hand where
it was made. But few marked what Isildur did.  He alone stood by his
father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Cirdan
stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel."

and

"`Fruitless did I call the victory of the Last Alliance? Not wholly
so, yet it did not achieve its end. Sauron was diminished, but not
destroyed. His Ring was lost but not unmade. The Dark Tower was
broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with
the power of the Ring, and while it remains they will endure. Many
Elves and many mighty Men, and many of their friends had perished in
the war. Anarion was slain, and Isildur was slain; and Gil-galad and
Elendil were no more. Never again shall there be any such league of
Elves and Men; for Men multiply and the Firstborn decrease, and the
two kindreds are estranged. And ever since that day the race of
Numenor has decayed, and the span of their years has lessened."

Elrond is clearly frustrated that so much was lost and the Ring still
exists. I can hardly blame him for not wanting to go to war again over
the same issue. 

######

NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:18:44 -0600
From: R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
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On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:17:37 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>Alison <news.poster@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> "Brethren" literally means " brothers". It's simply an older English
>> version of the plural. I guess of the same form as "children".
>
>Ah. Thanks. Is there an equivalent for sister?

"Cistern"? :-)

R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

######

NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:38:39 -0600
From: R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
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On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:49:05 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>[Elladan and Elrohir helping Aragorn's claim]
>
>> Just the fact that they are lordly Elves helps: it harkens back to the
>> Last Alliance and the earliest Kings. That they can offer (on behalf
>> of Elrond as well as themselves) reasonably first-hand confirmation of
>> Aragorn's bloodline helps. The relationship to Arwen is a huge plus.
>> Winning the hand of an Elf maiden is major stuff. While it doesn't
>> prove his royal lineage, it certainly helps sell him as a Real Hero.
>> Finally, I'll bet they were great spokesmen what with their handsome
>> Elvish looks and long experience and all the linguistic excellence of
>> the House of Elrond soaked into their very cores.
>
>[Linguistic excellence? Where does that come from??]

Not another poetry skipper?!?

>OK, I just had to go and see if what they (the sons of Elrond) actually
>say and do in the book is impressive or not, and whether or not people
>(either the characters in the book, or the readers of the book) might be
>impressed with them. I realise you are speculating about things in
>general, which would include "off-stage" activity, but from what I
>remember they only play minor roles in the book from the reader's
>point-of-view (probably a hobbit point-of-view). My conclusion is that
>they are fairly well fleshed out minor characters (*), but that a lot of
>the key stuff was removed to the Appendices.

Erkenbrand of Westfold is a minor character in the book, but he is a
key figure in the War. If he had not had the foresight to prepare
Helm's Deep, Theoden's only viable defense would have been to retreat
into the mountain refuges and even if Saruman's forces would have been
defeated, it would have been too late for Minas Tirith. Just because
the hobbits don't spend a lot of time with someone doesn't mean their
actions aren't important. (Although I think as it turns out E&E
probably weren't strictly necessary to establish Aragorn's claim --
still, it is better to have an excess than a deficiency of support and
if Denethor hadn't bowed out, it would have been even more important
to have the best possible position.)

[snip excellent collection of Elladan and Elrohir mentions. Good job.
I'm saving it.]


R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

######

From: "james rich" <aelfwina@cableone.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 03:25:24 -0600
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"Chris" <cburd@islandnet.com> wrote in message
news:a72fc63.0501240857.6688ad16@posting.google.com...
> Alison <news.poster@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > "Brethren" literally means " brothers". It's simply an older English
> > version of the plural. I guess of the same form as "children".
>
> I believe "children" is actually a double plural. The "proper" plural
> of "child" would be "childer", but somehow an extra plural marker got
> tacked on the end (like modern German, older English had several
> plural endings). It's a bit like saying "hobbitses".

And JRRT himself uses "Bagginses" as the plural of "Baggins".
Barbara

>
> Hmm, besides Gollum, who talks this way? Oh... kids.
>
> I've read that in one black English dialect, the plural of "child" is
> "cherns". That makes for a triple plural.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chris Burd

######

From: Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:29:08 -0500
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"james rich" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>"Chris" <cburd@islandnet.com> wrote in message
>> I believe "children" is actually a double plural. The "proper" plural
>> of "child" would be "childer", but somehow an extra plural marker got
>> tacked on the end (like modern German, older English had several
>> plural endings). It's a bit like saying "hobbitses".
>
>And JRRT himself uses "Bagginses" as the plural of "Baggins".

Not the same thing at all. Adding -es to a noun ending -s is
the regular way to form its plural in English. 

A double plural would be Bagginses for "Baggin". Bagginses for
Baggins is the normal plural.

-- 
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
                                  http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
  http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm

######

From: Belba Grubb From Stock <barbb@dbtech.net>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:44:42 -0600
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On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:36:46 GMT, nat_mann@yahoo.com (Natman) wrote:

>On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:25:49 +0100, "Öjevind Lång"
><dnivejo.gnal@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
>>"Natman" <nat_mann@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
>>news:41f59358.29738691@netnews.comcast.net...
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>> He's been there & done that.
>>>
>>> He's still somewhat bitter about Isildur ignoring his advice to toss
>>> the ring into the fire when it was close at hand. But Noooooooo that
>>> would have been too easy. Now thousands of years later Sauron is still
>>> around causing a bother when Elrond is getting ready to pack up and go
>>> west.
>>
>>I suspect he bitterness is something you have transposed from the film. In
>>the book, the feeling one gets is that Elrond needs to keep an eye on things
>>from Rivendell. Guard the Misty Mountains, and so on.
>>
>>Öjevid
>>
>>
>The bitterness was certainly emphasized more in the film, but the
>following quote from the Council of Elrond shows that he was not happy
>about the ring not being destroyed:
>
>"`Alas! yes,' said Elrond. `Isildur took it, as should not have been.
>It should have been cast then into Orodruin's fire nigh at hand where
>it was made. But few marked what Isildur did.  He alone stood by his
>father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Cirdan
>stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel."
>
>and
>
>"`Fruitless did I call the victory of the Last Alliance? Not wholly
>so, yet it did not achieve its end. Sauron was diminished, but not
>destroyed. His Ring was lost but not unmade. The Dark Tower was
>broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with
>the power of the Ring, and while it remains they will endure. Many
>Elves and many mighty Men, and many of their friends had perished in
>the war. Anarion was slain, and Isildur was slain; and Gil-galad and
>Elendil were no more. Never again shall there be any such league of
>Elves and Men; for Men multiply and the Firstborn decrease, and the
>two kindreds are estranged. And ever since that day the race of
>Numenor has decayed, and the span of their years has lessened."
>
>Elrond is clearly frustrated that so much was lost and the Ring still
>exists. I can hardly blame him for not wanting to go to war again over
>the same issue. 

Bitterness and frustration it might be in ordinary people, but in
light of Elrond's great wisdom and insight it likely is rather
sadness.  He has a very understated style -- even his rebuke to
Gandalf for using the Black Speech in Rivendell is very mild, not at
all what ordinary people might have said if somebody did a comparable
thing in their own homes.

Barb
Evil is unspectacular and always human and
shares our bed and eats at our own table.
              -- W. H. Aulden, quoted by Dan Warner

######

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From: nat_mann@yahoo.com (Natman)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:30:06 GMT
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:44:42 -0600, Belba Grubb From Stock
<barbb@dbtech.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:36:46 GMT, nat_mann@yahoo.com (Natman) wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:25:49 +0100, "Öjevind Lång"
>><dnivejo.gnal@swipnet.se> wrote:
>>
>>>"Natman" <nat_mann@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
>>>news:41f59358.29738691@netnews.comcast.net...
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>> He's been there & done that.
>>>>
>>>> He's still somewhat bitter about Isildur ignoring his advice to toss
>>>> the ring into the fire when it was close at hand. But Noooooooo that
>>>> would have been too easy. Now thousands of years later Sauron is still
>>>> around causing a bother when Elrond is getting ready to pack up and go
>>>> west.
>>>
>>>I suspect he bitterness is something you have transposed from the film. In
>>>the book, the feeling one gets is that Elrond needs to keep an eye on things
>>>from Rivendell. Guard the Misty Mountains, and so on.
>>>
>>>Öjevid
>>>
>>>
>>The bitterness was certainly emphasized more in the film, but the
>>following quote from the Council of Elrond shows that he was not happy
>>about the ring not being destroyed:
>>
>>"`Alas! yes,' said Elrond. `Isildur took it, as should not have been.
>>It should have been cast then into Orodruin's fire nigh at hand where
>>it was made. But few marked what Isildur did.  He alone stood by his
>>father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Cirdan
>>stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel."
>>
>>and
>>
>>"`Fruitless did I call the victory of the Last Alliance? Not wholly
>>so, yet it did not achieve its end. Sauron was diminished, but not
>>destroyed. His Ring was lost but not unmade. The Dark Tower was
>>broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with
>>the power of the Ring, and while it remains they will endure. Many
>>Elves and many mighty Men, and many of their friends had perished in
>>the war. Anarion was slain, and Isildur was slain; and Gil-galad and
>>Elendil were no more. Never again shall there be any such league of
>>Elves and Men; for Men multiply and the Firstborn decrease, and the
>>two kindreds are estranged. And ever since that day the race of
>>Numenor has decayed, and the span of their years has lessened."
>>
>>Elrond is clearly frustrated that so much was lost and the Ring still
>>exists. I can hardly blame him for not wanting to go to war again over
>>the same issue. 
>
>Bitterness and frustration it might be in ordinary people, but in
>light of Elrond's great wisdom and insight it likely is rather
>sadness.  He has a very understated style -- even his rebuke to
>Gandalf for using the Black Speech in Rivendell is very mild, not at
>all what ordinary people might have said if somebody did a comparable
>thing in their own homes.
>
Perhaps bitter was a bit harsh. However you catagorize the emotion,
Elrond had done his bit and was not willing to be personally involved
in this current round with Sauron. 

######

From: Belba Grubb From Stock <barbb@dbtech.net>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elladan and Elrohir (was Re: CotW, LOTR, Book 5, Chapter 6 - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:43:19 -0600
Organization: Very little, but I try
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:30:06 GMT, nat_mann@yahoo.com (Natman) wrote:

<snip>

>Perhaps bitter was a bit harsh. However you catagorize the emotion,
>Elrond had done his bit and was not willing to be personally involved
>in this current round with Sauron. 

That's very likely.  And the suggestion that he was remaining in
Rivendell to protect it is valid, too -- despite his knowledge that
resistance against Sauron would be hopeless if he regained the One, he
would remain there to the bitter end, I suppose.  After all, he had
founded it when Sauron had been rampaging through Eriador.  In his
wisdom he was looking past this current round, in a "what if" kind of
way.

Barb