Message-ID: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 23:14:46 +0000 Lines: 21 User-Agent: KNode/0.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Authenticated-User: $$nnmvwqeaa0shkm X-Comments: This message was posted through From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 62 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 00:44:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.230.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1104626642 24.160.230.42 (Sat, 01 Jan 2005 18:44:02 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 18:44:02 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166741 Ancalagon The Black wrote: > A quick question: the bodies of the Children of Eru (including > Dwarves, Hobbits & Orcs) are flesh & blood and are considered /hroa/. > What about the (multiple) bodies of Sauron and the other Ainur? Were > these /hroa/ or simply a projection of the /fea/? I'm not sure if you are considering the raiment taken by the Ainur in the forms of the Eruhini to be "real" , i.e., matter. I believe they were. During the Festival, the Valar are described as being able to eat, drink and "draw strength from the earth". If the forms were simply projections, they wouldn't be able to do this. The natural state of an incarnate (the Eruhini) is that of a united "fea" and "hroa". The natural state of an Ainu is purely spiritual, though they may clothe themselves in physical form -- but the form is still physical. I believe Tolkien states (I can't find where -- sorry), and I could be wrong, that an Ainu who stays in a physical form for an extended period becomes accustomed to that form, and finds it more and more difficult to depart from that state. The Istari's natural state *was* that of a fea and hroa -- they were essentially incarnates, but of a higher spiritual order than Men or Elves. Sauron in the first, second and early third ages was clearly not incarnate IMO, and able to change his "raiment" at will -- though it kept getting more difficult to do with each "death". I think that at the time of the WotR, he was essentially an incarnate as well. That's just my opinion, of course. > > I know that the bodies of the Wizards were /hroa/, as was the body of > Melian while she was with Thingol. What happened to her body? Did > she simply cast it off (deconstruct it) like Arien & Sauron? Or was > it part of Middle Earth and had to be left behind? Was Melkor's body > also /hroa/, or was it a projection that became /hroa/ as he became > weaker? In MR, Tolkien states that by the time of the War of the Jewels Morgoth had essentially become an incarnate like the Eruhini. He had lost the power to change his form or to walk unclad. This was one of the chief, if not sole, reasons why Morgoth alone of the Valar knew fear (as in the emotion, not the soul ;-)). He had dispersed so much of his native power into the substance of Arda that if destroyed, his hroa would not be able to be regenerated. > > Also, how would a /hroa/ serve an Ainu better than a projected /fea/? > Does it allow them to manipulate the material world more accurately? In Morgoth's case, being embodied in the substance of Arda (matter) made him more in touch with that which he had marred. He was trying to control the "hroa of Arda", and to identify himself with it. (MR p399) -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:50:33 +0100 Lines: 120 Message-ID: <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net IosWldDcXppuEjjPhBNHNAyC7icLvVnMMGEEmwiN/a0LyjgPj8 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166946 in , Bill O'Meally enriched us with: > > Ancalagon The Black wrote: >> >> A quick question: the bodies of the Children of Eru (including >> Dwarves, Hobbits & Orcs) are flesh & blood and are considered /hroa/. >> What about the (multiple) bodies of Sauron and the other Ainur? Were >> these /hroa/ or simply a projection of the /fea/? > > I'm not sure if you are considering the raiment taken by the Ainur in > the forms of the Eruhini to be "real" , i.e., matter. I believe they > were. I still wonder how all this relates. There is something (IDHTBIFOM) in MR about having hroar made and sustained from Arda Marred, which makes me wonder if the 'raiment' bodies of the Ainur are made of matter containing the Morgorth element, of if they are able to either construct new, unmarred matter, or to draw on, supposedly, unmarred matter from Valinor. > I believe Tolkien states (I can't find where -- sorry), and I could > be wrong, that an Ainu who stays in a physical form for an extended > period becomes accustomed to that form, and finds it more and more > difficult to depart from that state. I believe you're thinking of note 5 to Ósanwe-kenta, whcih begins: " Here Penolodh adds a long note on the use of /hröar/ by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a 'self-arraying', it may tend to approach the state of 'incarnation', especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). 'It is said that the longer and the more the same /hröa/ is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less to the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it." This slide from 'raiment' to 'incarnation' implies to me something which is not a sharply divided binary system, but a scale where the extremes seems to be the Valar and the Eruhíni, and where Melian, for instance would have started with self-arraying and ended as an incarnate Maia in the same sense as the Istari. > The Istari's natural state *was* that of a fea and hroa -- they were > essentially incarnates, but of a higher spiritual order than Men or > Elves. Yes, that seems to be the big difference between the Istari and other Maiar -- that the Istari were from the beginning 'incarnate'; that they /had/ to take sustenance in the matter of Arda Marred and (I think), that the flesh of their bodies were of marred matter. > Sauron in the first, second and early third ages was clearly not > incarnate IMO, and able to change his "raiment" at will -- though it > kept getting more difficult to do with each "death". I think that at > the time of the WotR, he was essentially an incarnate as well. That's > just my opinion, of course. That appears to be the way that the O-K note is going as well. It ends: "Even his [Morgoth's] visible form he could no longer master, so that its hideousness could not any longer be masked, and it showed forth the evil of his mind. So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed.' (Pengolodh here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth. But the first destruction of the bodily form of Sauron was recorded in the histories of the Elder Days, in the /Lay of Leithian/.)" (ibid.) To this I think we should also add what Tolkien said elsewhere: " It was because of this pre-occupation with the Children of God that the spirits so often took the form and likeness of the Children, especially after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book." [Letter #200, From a letter to Major R. Bowen 25 June 1957] I am not entirely sure what it all means :-/ Did Sauron become progressively more 'incarnate' in each bodily form as he used it for evil purposes, and that each rebuilding weakened him until the the final weakening (by the destruction of the Ring and the final dissipation beyond 'rapport' and control of the Power he had invested in it) left him too weak to build a new Hroa? Or does Tolkien expound different, mutually exclusive, ideas? -- Troels Forchhammer "He deserves death." "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." - Tolkien in The Fellowship of the Ring ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 46 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 02:49:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.230.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1105066180 24.160.230.42 (Thu, 06 Jan 2005 20:49:40 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 20:49:40 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167142 Troels Forchhammer wrote: > in , > Bill O'Meally enriched us with: >> I'm not sure if you are considering the raiment taken by the Ainur in >> the forms of the Eruhini to be "real" , i.e., matter. I believe they >> were. > > I still wonder how all this relates. There is something (IDHTBIFOM) > in MR about having hroar made and sustained from Arda Marred, which > makes me wonder if the 'raiment' bodies of the Ainur are made of > matter containing the Morgorth element, of if they are able to either > construct new, unmarred matter, or to draw on, supposedly, unmarred > matter from Valinor. I have trouble reconciling that myself. If the /hroar/ taken on by the Valar (and their forms are indeed called that in /Osanwe-kenta/!) are in fact made of the stuff of Arda (matter), then they should be subjected to the marring of Melkor. The fact that Tolkien actually called their forms /hroar/ seems to support the "made from matter" hypothesis. Elves born in Valinor, namely Feanor, were obviously subjected to the Morgoth element that is present in all matter, so I wouldn't think the Valar would be able to somehow draw on unmarred matter. > Yes, that seems to be the big difference between the Istari and other > Maiar -- that the Istari were from the beginning 'incarnate'; that > they /had/ to take sustenance in the matter of Arda Marred and (I > think), that the flesh of their bodies were of marred matter. I guess it could be put this way: when in their physical forms, the Valar *may* "eat, drink and draw strength from the Earth", whereas the istari *must* "eat, drink and draw strength from the Earth". -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 60 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 08:49:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.156 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1105087746 172.27.158.156 (Fri, 07 Jan 2005 10:49:06 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 10:49:06 EET Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!nntpfeed.zonnet.nl!feeder1.cambrium.nl!feed.tweaknews.nl!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167153 in <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>, Bill O'Meally enriched us with: > > Troels Forchhammer wrote: >> > I have trouble reconciling that myself. If the /hroar/ taken on by the > Valar (and their forms are indeed called that in /Osanwe-kenta/!) are > in fact made of the stuff of Arda (matter), then they should be > subjected to the marring of Melkor. The fact that Tolkien actually > called their forms /hroar/ seems to support the "made from matter" > hypothesis. Elves born in Valinor, namely Feanor, were obviously > subjected to the Morgoth element that is present in all matter, so I > wouldn't think the Valar would be able to somehow draw on unmarred > matter. I don't recall exactly where I read it (I /think/ it was in 'Myths Transformed'), but I remember a passage telling how the Valar were shocked at Miriel's fate because hers was the first death in Valinor where such a thing had been thought impossible. As I recall it the passage says something about the Eldar carrying the marring with them from Middle-earth, and the surprise of the Valar stemming from the fact that Valinor was unmarred. I'll try to find the relevant passage(s?) when I get back in contact with my books ;-) >> Yes, that seems to be the big difference between the Istari and other >> Maiar There's a 'who became incarnate' missing there. >> that the Istari were from the beginning 'incarnate'; that they >> /had/ to take sustenance in the matter of Arda Marred and (I >> think), that the flesh of their bodies were of marred matter. > > I guess it could be put this way: when in their physical forms, the > Valar *may* "eat, drink and draw strength from the Earth", whereas the > istari *must* "eat, drink and draw strength from the Earth". Yes, that seems a good way to put it. That makes me wonder about such other Ainur as became in the end bound to a /hroa/ -- Melian, Morgoth, Sauron etc. Did they end up in the same situation as the Istari -- only being able to sustain the /hroa/ they became bound to by way of eating etc. Would it depend on whether they had engaged in such practices previously (i.e. that a /hroa/ that had been sustained by the 'flesh' of Arda by a free choice, would come to depend on that sustenance when the Ainu became bound to it)? -- Troels Forchhammer If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. - Thorin Oakenshield, 'The Hobbit' (J.R.R. Tolkien) ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 71 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 04:14:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.230.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1105157666 24.160.230.42 (Fri, 07 Jan 2005 22:14:26 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 22:14:26 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!cyclone.southeast.rr.com!news-feed-01.tampabay.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167229 Troels Forchhammer wrote: > in 8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com, > I don't recall exactly where I read it (I /think/ it was in 'Myths > Transformed'), 'Laws and Customs'. but I remember a passage telling how the Valar were > shocked at Miriel's fate because hers was the first death in Valinor > where such a thing had been thought impossible. As I recall it the > passage says something about the Eldar carrying the marring with them > from Middle-earth, and the surprise of the Valar stemming from the > fact that Valinor was unmarred. > > I'll try to find the relevant passage(s?) when I get back in contact > with my books ;-) "For they perceived that this was a grave matter, and a portent, in that Miriel had died even in Aman, and had brought sorrow to the Blessed Realm, things which they before had believed could not come to pass... And Manwe spoke to the Valar, saying: 'In this matter ye must not forget that you deal with Arda Marred - out of which ye brought the Eldar." MR p 239 But would that marring carry over into their children *born* in Aman? It seems obvious that that is the case. I'm thinking specifically of Feanor. If all the matter of Arda is marred, then if the /hroar/ that the Ainur assumed, if it was in fact physical matter, should also be marred. Perhaps the strength of their spirits prohibited the Morgoth element from having any power over them. > >>> Yes, that seems to be the big difference between the Istari and >>> other Maiar > > There's a 'who became incarnate' missing there. > >>> that the Istari were from the beginning 'incarnate'; that they >>> /had/ to take sustenance in the matter of Arda Marred and (I >>> think), that the flesh of their bodies were of marred matter. >> >> I guess it could be put this way: when in their physical forms, the >> Valar *may* "eat, drink and draw strength from the Earth", whereas >> the istari *must* "eat, drink and draw strength from the Earth". > > Yes, that seems a good way to put it. That makes me wonder about such > other Ainur as became in the end bound to a /hroa/ -- Melian, Morgoth, > Sauron etc. Did they end up in the same situation as the Istari -- > only being able to sustain the /hroa/ they became bound to by way of > eating etc. It would make sense to me that that would be the case. > > Would it depend on whether they had engaged in such practices > previously (i.e. that a /hroa/ that had been sustained by the 'flesh' > of Arda by a free choice, would come to depend on that sustenance > when the Ainu became bound to it)? It would seem to me that being made of the stuff of Arda, the /hroa/ of an incarnate being -- regardless of the circumstances of how it came to be -- would need to be sustained by the stuff of Arda. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 62 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:36:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.234 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1105342610 172.27.158.234 (Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:36:50 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:36:50 EET Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!uninett.no!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167383 in <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com>, Troels Forchhammer enriched us with: > > in <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>, > Bill O'Meally enriched us with: >> >> Troels Forchhammer wrote: >>> > > > >> I have trouble reconciling that myself. If the /hroar/ taken on by >> the Valar (and their forms are indeed called that in >> /Osanwe-kenta/!) are in fact made of the stuff of Arda (matter), >> then they should be subjected to the marring of Melkor. The fact >> that Tolkien actually called their forms /hroar/ seems to support >> the "made from matter" hypothesis. Elves born in Valinor, namely >> Feanor, were obviously subjected to the Morgoth element that is >> present in all matter, so I wouldn't think the Valar would be able >> to somehow draw on unmarred matter. > > I don't recall exactly where I read it [...] OK, I found it. Morgoth's Ring was right, but it was spread in two places. >>> Yes, that seems to be the big difference between the Istari and >>> other Maiar > > There's a 'who became incarnate' missing there. > >>> that the Istari were from the beginning 'incarnate'; that they >>> /had/ to take sustenance in the matter of Arda Marred and (I >>> think), that the flesh of their bodies were of marred matter. >> >> I guess it could be put this way: when in their physical forms, the >> Valar *may* "eat, drink and draw strength from the Earth", whereas >> the istari *must* "eat, drink and draw strength from the Earth". > > Yes, that seems a good way to put it. That makes me wonder about such > other Ainur as became in the end bound to a /hroa/ -- Melian, Morgoth, > Sauron etc. Did they end up in the same situation as the Istari -- > only being able to sustain the /hroa/ they became bound to by way of > eating etc. > > Would it depend on whether they had engaged in such practices > previously (i.e. that a /hroa/ that had been sustained by the 'flesh' > of Arda by a free choice, would come to depend on that sustenance > when the Ainu became bound to it)? -- Troels Forchhammer Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men. - Lord Acton, in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887. ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 22 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:55:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.234 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1105358126 172.27.158.234 (Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:55:26 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:55:26 EET Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167398 in , Troels Forchhammer enriched us with: > > OK, I found it. Morgoth's Ring was right, but it was spread in two > places. My apologies. I've been without power since Saturday evening (due to the same storm that ravaged Britain on Friday), and just mindlessly sent off my various drafts without checking if they were done :-( -- Troels Forchhammer "It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent whatsoever," he said. "Have you thought of going into teaching?" - (Terry Pratchett, Mort) ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:49:30 +0100 Lines: 156 Message-ID: <34ivvdF4dhn0lU1@individual.net> References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net WOc8J1ZPVCdNzmeXUIaFqwM0Re9C5gJs9AAvX/xbcxFEndPbDt X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167517 in , Bill O'Meally enriched us with: > > Troels Forchhammer wrote: >> in 8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com, >> >> I don't recall exactly where I read it (I /think/ it was in 'Myths >> Transformed'), > > 'Laws and Customs'. > > but I remember a passage telling how the Valar were >> shocked at Miriel's fate because hers was the first death in Valinor >> where such a thing had been thought impossible. As I recall it the >> passage says something about the Eldar carrying the marring with them >> from Middle-earth, and the surprise of the Valar stemming from the >> fact that Valinor was unmarred. >> >> I'll try to find the relevant passage(s?) when I get back in contact >> with my books ;-) > > "For they perceived that this was a grave matter, and a portent, in > that Miriel had died even in Aman, and had brought sorrow to the > Blessed Realm, things which they before had believed could not come > to pass... And Manwe spoke to the Valar, saying: 'In this matter ye > must not forget that you deal with Arda Marred - out of which ye > brought the Eldar." MR p 239 Actually I was thinking of this: [Morgoth's Ring 3,II 'Later Versions of the Story of Finwë and Míriel] "But it is made plain that while, on the one hand, this possibility of 'death' for the Elves was a consequence of the Marring of Arda by Melkor, on the other hand the death of Míriel so gravely disquieted the Valar because it was the first that had taken place in Aman. Is it to be supposed, then, that until this time the Valar had been deluded, believing falsely that the incarnate Elves, /by the fact of their dwelling in Aman/, were protected from all possibility of the severance of spirit and body, in any of the ways that such a severance might come about in Middle-earth - believing indeed that the Marring of Arda and the possibility of death for the incarnate had effect only east of the Great Sea, and only now discovering the falsity of this belief when Míriel died? (See the passage from 'text VII' on p. 400.)" With the reference being to this: [Morgoth's Ring V 'Myths Transformed' Text VII] " Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa[2], the 'flesh' or physical matter of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient',[3] and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits. [...] The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention was mainly upon the North-west. Unless swiftly successful, War against him might well end in reducing all Middle-earth to chaos, possibly even all Arda." [2] "/hroa/: so written here and at the second occurrence below (and in text A), not as elsewhere always /hröa/, where it means the body of an incarnate being. The word used for 'physical matter' in /Laws and Customs/ was hron, later changed to /orma/ (p. 2 18 and note 26); in the Commentary on the Athrabeth and in the 'Glossary' of names the word is /erma/ (pp. 338, 349)." [3] "On this sentence see p. 271" (MR 3,II 'Later Versions ...') The suggestion here, as I read it, is that Aman itself was unmarred ("Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely [...]") and that it was the because the Eldar had come from Middle-earth that they carried this marring with them to Aman (not being able to wholly change their body from the hroa of Middle-earth to the hroa of Aman. But then there is the sentence about 'those who had bodies nourished by the hroa of Arda', but that might be because the only hroar that are contemplated here are of Middle-earth (specifically that the self-arraying of the Ainur was not contemplated). > But would that marring carry over into their children *born* in Aman? > It seems obvious that that is the case. I'm thinking specifically of > Feanor. 'Flesh of my flesh'! If the seed is in the marred matter of Middle-earth, then I think the marring will also be carried over to the child. > If all the matter of Arda is marred, then if the /hroar/ that the > Ainur assumed, if it was in fact physical matter, should also be > marred. Perhaps the strength of their spirits prohibited the Morgoth > element from having any power over them. That returns me to considering the word 'incarnate' as it is used by Tolkien in this connection. As I have come to understand it, the word is not used of a self-arrayed Ainu (one who is not bound to the hroa), in which case the sentence "they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form" would not apply to a self-arrayed Ainu, but that would, I think, be due to the difference between incarnation and self-arraying. >> That makes me wonder about such other Ainur as became in the end >> bound to a /hroa/ -- Melian, Morgoth, Sauron etc. Did they end up >> in the same situation as the Istari -- only being able to sustain >> the /hroa/ they became bound to by way of eating etc. > > It would make sense to me that that would be the case. I think it is the natural extension of what is said in note 5 to Ósanwe-kenta about the hroar of the Ainur -- in particular the parts about becoming 'bound' to the hroa. I am not sure, however, if we can assume that being bound to the 'hroa' (to the extend that the fëa cannot leave the hroa) is equivalent to being incarnate? Was, for instance, Melian incarnate in the same sense as the Istari? Was Sauron? If these were incarnate in the same sense, then it would also follow that the Istari suffered a limitation on their powers beyond what was the result of their incarnation -- both Melian and Sauron were far stronger, and much less reduced, even though they were embodied (to use a word that can hopefully refer to both ways) than the the Istari. >> Would it depend on whether they had engaged in such practices >> previously (i.e. that a /hroa/ that had been sustained by the 'flesh' >> of Arda by a free choice, would come to depend on that sustenance >> when the Ainu became bound to it)? > > It would seem to me that being made of the stuff of Arda, the /hroa/ > of an incarnate being -- regardless of the circumstances of how it > came to be -- would need to be sustained by the stuff of Arda. Yes, I agree. The question, however, is also whether an Ainu who became bound to a hroa by other means than sustaining the hroa by the matter of Arda[1] would become 'incarnate' in that sense (i.e. depending on sustenance from the hroa of Arda). [1] We know that the Valar, for instance, do not eat or drink, though they probably also leave their hroar regularly in order to avoid the other dangers; e.g. using the hroa 'for the furtherance of its personal purposes'. It would probably take much longer that way, though (sustaining and propagating the hroa itself is more binding than other things), but it could probably still be done. -- Troels Forchhammer Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men. - Lord Acton, in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887. ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 111 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 04:40:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.230.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1105504817 24.160.230.42 (Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:40:17 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:40:17 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167545 [Troels, this is in response to your post from 11 January. I saw it in Google but not my newsreader. Unfortunately Road Runner (it wasn't OE afterall) has been dropping posts left and right . I cut and pasted from Google. I deeply apologize if this scews anyone up] Troels Forchhammer wrote: >Actually I was thinking of this: >The suggestion here, as I read it, is that Aman itself was unmarred >("Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely [...]") and >that it was the because the Eldar had come from Middle-earth that they >carried this marring with them to Aman (not being able to wholly change >their body from the hroa of Middle-earth to the hroa of Aman. That makes more sense to me. If the forms assumed by the Valar are indeed physical, to be made out of marred matter wouldn't make sense. But being made of the matter within the Blessed Realm, they'd be made of the stuff of Arda-unmarred. >That returns me to considering the word 'incarnate' as it is used by >Tolkien in this connection. As I have come to understand it, the word >is >not used of a self-arrayed Ainu (one who is not bound to the hroa), in >which case the sentence "they were none of them wholly free of him in >their incarnate form" would not apply to a self-arrayed Ainu, but that >would, I think, be due to the difference between incarnation and >self-arraying. >>> That makes me wonder about such other Ainur as became in the end >>> bound to a /hroa/ -- Melian, Morgoth, Sauron etc. Did they end up >>> in the same situation as the Istari -- only being able to sustain >>> the /hroa/ they became bound to by way of eating etc. >> It would make sense to me that that would be the case. >I think it is the natural extension of what is said in note 5 to >Ósanwe-kenta about the hroar of the Ainur -- in particular the parts >about becoming 'bound' to the hroa. I am not sure, however, if we can >assume that being bound to the 'hroa' (to the extend that the fëa >cannot >leave the hroa) is equivalent to being incarnate? Morgoth is specifically described as being essentially an incarnate. >Was, for instance, >Melian incarnate in the same sense as the Istari? She had been in her physical form for so long, and had given birth to boot. "Most binding is begetting or conceiving" (/O-k/ p 30). If she was not incarnate, she would at least have great difficulty leaving her hroa. This is especially so for the Maiar, being lesser spirits than the Valar. >Was Sauron? IMO, yes. >If these were incarnate in the same sense, then it would also follow >that >the Istari suffered a limitation on their powers beyond what was the >result of their incarnation -- both Melian and Sauron were far >stronger, >and much less reduced, even though they were embodied (to use a word >that >can hopefully refer to both ways) than the the Istari. That's a good point that I hadn't considered. But in addition to the dampening effect of their bodies, the Istari were also forbidden by the Valar to make open displays of their powers. Melian and Sauron were under no such restriction. It could also be that their native strength was already far stronger than the Istaris'. At least we know that is true of Sauron. Also in Sauron's case he, like Morgoth, would likely assume a form of the stuff of Arda to be more attumed to the Morgoth element. >>> It would seem to me that being made of the stuff of Arda, the /hroa/ >>> of an incarnate being -- regardless of the circumstances of how it >>> came to be -- would need to be sustained by the stuff of Arda. >Yes, I agree. The question, however, is also whether an Ainu who became >bound to a hroa by other means than sustaining the hroa by the matter >of >Arda[1] would become 'incarnate' in that sense (i.e. depending on >sustenance from the hroa of Arda). >[1] We know that the Valar, for instance, do not eat or drink, But they do at times, which would tend to be a binding activity according to /O-k/. though >they probably also leave their hroar regularly in order to avoid the >other dangers; e.g. using the hroa 'for the furtherance of its personal >purposes'. It would probably take much longer that way, though >(sustaining and propagating the hroa itself is more binding than other >things), but it could probably still be done. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 197 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:58:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.25.151.50 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1105649936 172.25.151.50 (Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:58:56 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:58:56 EET Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!frankfurt1.telia.de!newspeer2.se.telia.net!se.telia.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167601 in , Bill O'Meally enriched us with: > > [Troels, this is in response to your post from 11 January. I saw it in > Google but not my newsreader. Unfortunately Road Runner (it wasn't OE > afterall) has been dropping posts left and right . I cut and > pasted from Google. I deeply apologize if this scews anyone up] Well, /obviously/ you ought to have copied the message-ID (original format in Google) to the References header, so that the message would appear correctly threaded! This is just plain messy! Sorry -- I just couldn't resist that ;-) No, nothing's messed up in my reader. > Troels Forchhammer wrote: >> >> Actually I was thinking of this: > > > >> The suggestion here, as I read it, is that Aman itself was unmarred >> ("Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely [...]") >> and that it was the because the Eldar had come from Middle-earth >> that they carried this marring with them to Aman (not being able to >> wholly change their body from the hroa of Middle-earth to the hroa >> of Aman. > > That makes more sense to me. If the forms assumed by the Valar are > indeed physical, to be made out of marred matter wouldn't make sense. > But being made of the matter within the Blessed Realm, they'd be made > of the stuff of Arda-unmarred. Precisely. In particular it would free them from any negative influences through the hröa[*] -> fëa connection mentioned in MR ("and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits."). [1] I can't really decide whether to use 'hroa' or 'hröa'. It is 'hroa' lots of places in MR (e.g. the passages I quoted in the previous post), but 'hröa' in the index and in O-k) >> I think it is the natural extension of what is said in note 5 to >> Ósanwe-kenta about the hroar of the Ainur -- in particular the >> parts about becoming 'bound' to the hroa. I am not sure, however, >> if we can assume that being bound to the 'hroa' (to the extend >> that the fëa cannot leave the hroa) is equivalent to being >> incarnate? > > Morgoth is specifically described as being essentially an incarnate. And yet the Ósanwe-kenta note says about this that "it may /approach/ the state of 'incarnation', especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar)." >> Was, for instance, Melian incarnate in the same sense as the Istari? > > She had been in her physical form for so long, and had given birth to > boot. "Most binding is begetting or conceiving" (/O-k/ p 30). Yes, that much is, I believe, clear. In the words of the Ósanwe-kenta, that would probably correspond to approaching the state of incarnation. Or would it correspond to incarnation? >> If these were incarnate in the same sense, then it would also >> follow that the Istari suffered a limitation on their powers >> beyond what was the result of their incarnation -- both Melian >> and Sauron were far stronger, and much less reduced, even though >> they were embodied (to use a word that can hopefully refer to >> both ways) than the the Istari. > > That's a good point that I hadn't considered. But in addition to the > dampening effect of their bodies, the Istari were also forbidden by > the Valar to make open displays of their powers. Yes. This would, however, not have hindered Saruman in the last years, I believe. Yet I get the impression that even then he was not as strong as Saruon or even Melian, despite being the most powerful of the Istari ("that is, higher in Valinórean stature than the others." UT). And what about the enhancement of Gandalf from the Grey to the White? Was that merely the release of prohibitions -- I get another feeling from Tolkien's words in letter #156, "the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman" -- in particular since we learn immediately afterwards that "He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills". The impression that I get is that the Istari were restricted in three ways: 1) The dampening of their powers due to true incarnation. 2) Extra dampening of the powers of their fëar, while their messenger status lasted (this would also explain why Saruman couldn't rebuild a hröa after Wormtongue killed him). 3) An obligation to conceal what power they have left (in excess of the power available to incarnates). My impression is that not only was Gandalf's obligation to hide his power loosened, but his capability for showing power was also enhanced. One very serious problem that I've had with all this is that we learn that Melkor and Sauron took their hröar in order to gain /additional/ powers over matter, something that does not seem to be the case with the Istari. This question has preyed on me for a while. Basically I think I either need 2) above, or I need to understand the difference between e.g. Melian and Sauron and the Istari -- the difference between a Maia who is bound to a hröa and an incarnate Maia (the latter would be the exception from the rule, I guess -- that which happened only that one time). Of course there are other questions wound up in this. Were part of the power of the Istari externalised (as with Sauron and the Ring) and bound up in their staffs? "I should say it was a mythical way of representing the truth that potency (or perhaps rather potentiality) if it is to be exercised, and produce results, has to be externalized and so as it were passes, to a greater or less degree, out of one's direct control." [Letter #211, To Rhona Beare, 14 October 1958] This would, of course, also explain Saruman's lack of the power to reconstruct a hröa, but it would introduce the problem of what Gandalf actually did when he said, "Saruman, your staff is broken." (Though I don't think that Gandalf had the /power/ to do that anyway -- he was, I believe, given the /authority/ to judge Saruman, but the power to carry out the sentence still remained with Eru.) Sorry -- this started as merely an explanation of why this question has occupied me ;-) > Melian and Sauron were under no such restriction. It could also be > that their native strength was already far stronger than the Istaris'. > At least we know that is true of Sauron. As stated above, I don't think that this would work for Saruman if the restriction was only in the form of an obligation -- a prohibition against open displays of power etc. There is the description in UT 4,II 'The Istari' (the choosing of the Istari) that "they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh [...]" This, IMO, implies that at least the mightiest of the Istari (and Curumo was the mightiest of them all) would be of a 'Valinórean stature' equivalent to Sauron's, but that's not what we see in Saruman. The sentence could also, I believe, be read to imply a causal connection between "but must forgo might" and "and clothe themselves in flesh", but this particular description makes it sound very much like the self-arrayal that is normal for the Maiar . . . In the end I think that there was still a fundamental difference between the incarnate forms of the Istari and that of the self-arrayal of other Maiar, even Melian and Sauron. We learn in the UT essay about other consequences of the embodiment of the Istari, that doesn't seem to have applied to any other embodied Maiar (that we know of): " For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time." But even this explanation doesn't quite satisfy me, I'm afraid. If Curumo from the beginning was 'the peer of Sauron', and if the restrictions of his powers were due only to his incarnation and an obligation not to use them, why, then, would his fëa, freed of its material prison, be so impotent as described in the Scouring? I think this is where the idea of binding externalised power in their staffs enters the picture, though that doesn't appear a satisfying explanation either -- in part because I get the sense that the potency gained by externalising one's power is an evil motif in Tolkien's legendarium (Sauron and Melkor/Morgoth both externalised their power in the attempt to gain domination and control). I'm afraid that I'm either beginning to ramble or to move in circles -- I had better stop here and continue when I get my thoughts in better order ;-) -- Troels Forchhammer This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague ###### Message-ID: <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:31:05 +0000 References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> Lines: 44 User-Agent: KNode/0.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Authenticated-User: $$nnmvwqeaa0shkm X-Comments: This message was posted through " For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had > needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they > knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to > them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they > remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus > by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of > Sauron they might redress the evils of that time." > The above passage makes the Istari sound a little like new-born children in adult bodies. For me, it would seem that the Istari were not instructed to create these bodies according to a specification laid down by the Valar, but were *given* these mortal bodies to inhabit and use for their mission. Although this is not made explicit, I think that the bodies were created by Eru, and it was only by the inherent power of the Maiar spirit that the body was preserved against the ravages of time. I also believe that this incarnation process has an inherent effect on memory, unless their memories were deliberately wiped by Eru. I believe this preservation effect was similar in source to the preservation effects of the One Ring, since that had a great deal of Sauron's spiritual power held within it, the difference being that "natural" Mortal with the One ages "on the inside". I would call the Istari "unnatural" Mortals, since they *did* age, if only slowly (did they age quicker than the Eldar?). I believe the aging (ageing?) of their bodies was a feature of the mortal lands, and was something they had no power to stop, only slow down. Gandalf (had he stayed in Middle Earth) would have died of old age *eventually*. Gandalf the White did not appear to have a mortal body, since his spirit could be seen shining through it, although the same could be said of the Eldar. He did seem to have a great deal more physical strength though... Best, -- Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 97 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:00:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.230.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1105902032 24.160.230.42 (Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:00:32 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:00:32 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167723 Ancalagon The Black wrote: > Troels Forchhammer wrote: > >> " For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had >> needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they >> knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to >> them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they >> remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus >> by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of >> Sauron they might redress the evils of that time." >> > > The above passage makes the Istari sound a little like new-born > children in adult bodies. For me, it would seem that the Istari were > not instructed to create these bodies according to a specification > laid down by the Valar, but were *given* these mortal bodies to > inhabit and use for their mission. I believe so too. > > Although this is not made explicit, I think that the bodies were > created by Eru, and it was only by the inherent power of the Maiar > spirit that the body was preserved against the ravages of time. There we disagree. The mission was that of the Valar, not Eru, although they did so with his consent. It is not stated anywhere that I know of that he was directly involved apart from reincarnating Gandalf. The hroar of the Istari were the work of the Valar, IMO just as the reincarnation of the Eldar was the work of the Valar. UT states that the Valar "sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men", suggesting that they did the "cladding". > I also believe that this incarnation process has an inherent effect on > memory, unless their memories were deliberately wiped by Eru. "...being emboddied the Istari had need to learn much anew...," in my mind suggests that it was the former. > > I believe this preservation effect was similar in source to the > preservation effects of the One Ring, since that had a great deal of > Sauron's spiritual power held within it, the difference being that > "natural" Mortal with the One ages "on the inside". More likely, it was the power of the fea over the hroa, much like that which occurs in the preservation of Elves' bodies. In a Maia, the process would be all the stronger. > > I would call the Istari "unnatural" Mortals, since they *did* age, if > only slowly (did they age quicker than the Eldar?). Why would you call them mortals at all, much less 'unnatural'? the term "mortal" in Tolkien's mythos refers to those whose spirits depart from Arda upon the death of the body. This would not be the case of a Maia. You can't go by the fact that their bodies age. All things made of the substance of Arda age, even Elves' bodies albeit slowly, and they are not mortals. I believe the > aging (ageing?) of their bodies was a feature of the mortal lands, > and was something they had no power to stop, only slow down. Gandalf > (had he stayed in Middle Earth) would have died of old age > *eventually*. I don't think this would be the case. Perhaps if anything, like the Elves, they may 'fade'. This would make sense because as you stated, being of 'mortal lands' (Arda) the body, even of an Istar or an Elf, would not be forever enduring. The fea, being spiritual, would be. Just as the power of the Elves' fear were responsible for their longevity and resistance to sickness and injury, all the more so would be a Maia's fea in an incarnate form. IMO, the power of the Maia spirit over the body would be so strong that the body just might last the life of Arda were it allowed. That being said, I couldn't imagine that the fea of any of the Istari, even Gandalf, would be able to tolerate for more than a few thousand years the limitations imposed on them by being incarnate. They may begin to weary of that state long before any threat of their physical form dying of old age loomed. > > Gandalf the White did not appear to have a mortal body, since his > spirit could be seen shining through it, although the same could be > said of the Eldar. He did seem to have a great deal more physical > strength though... Gandalf the White's body was as real as Gandalf the Grey's. As "the White", he was enhanced by Eru, and he was allowed to use his powers more openly than was "the Grey". -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### Message-ID: <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:31:08 +0000 References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> Lines: 66 User-Agent: KNode/0.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Authenticated-User: $$nnmvwqeaa0shkm X-Comments: This message was posted through > There we disagree. The mission was that of the Valar, not Eru, > although they did so with his consent. It is not stated anywhere > that I know of that he was directly involved apart from > reincarnating Gandalf. The hroar of the Istari were the work of the > Valar, IMO just as the reincarnation of the Eldar was the work of > the Valar. UT states that the Valar "sent members of their own high > order, but clad in bodies as of Men", suggesting that they did the > "cladding". So the Valar created the bodies? Hhhmmm...would you say then that only Eru would have the power to create souls/spirits? That these bodies of Men created by the Valar would be lifeless until inhabited by a spirit? This looks similar to when Aule created the Dwarves - wasn't it Eru that gave them a spirit (described as "free will")? But, how did they learn the speech that Aule was teaching them, if they had no spirit? Also, if the Valar created "Gandalf" (the body), and Olorin occupied that body, what exactly was Eru's involvement? Did he facilitate Olorin's journey from Valinor back to the peak of Caradhras? It would seem that Olorin left Middle Earth, yet could not have left Arda (since he and the other Valar & Maiar were bound to it until the End). Was the fact that his powers were limited the reason why he could not re-occupy and rebuild his body without help? Is the opposite of this the reason why Melian was able to simply leave Middle Earth and return to Aman without boarding a ship, or swimming? > Why would you call them mortals at all, much less 'unnatural'? the > term "mortal" in Tolkien's mythos refers to those whose spirits > depart from Arda upon the death of the body. This would not be the > case of a Maia. You can't go by the fact that their bodies age. All > things made of the substance of Arda age, even Elves' bodies albeit > slowly, and they are not mortals. My mistake. My use of the word "mortal" reflected the fact that the Istari were in mortal lands, and bodies made of the physical substance of Arda, not that they had mortal spirits, doomed to leave Arda. > > Gandalf the White's body was as real as Gandalf the Grey's. As "the > White", he was enhanced by Eru, and he was allowed to use his powers > more openly than was "the Grey". Would you say then that Gandalf was partially telekinetic? How else would he have been able to lift Faramir? Nowhere is it written that Gandalf The White appeared to be physically more muscular than Gandalf The Grey. Also, I understand that he was allowed to use his powers more openly, but what was the nature of this "enhancement"? Best, -- Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:42:37 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:45:45 -0800 Message-ID: References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.23.131.109 X-Trace: sv3-mOf+hDacr1Pc/c5mR+SdXPYiUmaeGlmD4+lZy/AN43O67ceILNUvYrv5my2JSodxn3Vc/hBFET0Mqd2!qUW22pBkWx5Ud9E7s8w4HjQ2qWRXCXYCvKv9lvP9ru8M3LLnNAt1SJpdXLebMpYA3GwxhEmSwiM0!/Vyg9TahLQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167731 In article <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1>, ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net says... > > Also, if the Valar created "Gandalf" (the body), and Olorin occupied > that body, what exactly was Eru's involvement? Did he facilitate > Olorin's journey from Valinor back to the peak of Caradhras? It > would seem that Olorin left Middle Earth, yet could not have left > Arda (since he and the other Valar & Maiar were bound to it until the > End). He did leave Arda. He even left Ea (the Universe): "Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell." LotR, TTT Gandalf left the created universe (of which time is a part) and was not in Valinor before returning as the White. -- Tar-Elenion He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 84 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:25:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.230.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1105928745 24.160.230.42 (Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:25:45 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:25:45 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167749 Ancalagon The Black wrote: > So the Valar created the bodies? Hhhmmm...would you say then that > only Eru would have the power to create souls/spirits? Yes. Although I haven't read all of HOME, that much at least is stated in _Morgoth's Ring_. That these > bodies of Men created by the Valar would be lifeless until inhabited > by a spirit? It was more like the bodies were created for the Maiar that were selected for the task of being Istari; namely Olorin, Curuno, Aiwendil, Alatar and Pallando. I don't think they created a body and then said, "Hey! Olorin! This one would fit you nicely!" :-) > > This looks similar to when Aule created the Dwarves - wasn't it Eru > that gave them a spirit (described as "free will")? But, how did > they learn the speech that Aule was teaching them, if they had no > spirit? > > Also, if the Valar created "Gandalf" (the body), and Olorin occupied > that body, what exactly was Eru's involvement? "Gandalf" was simply one of many names given to the Maia Olorin who was sent to Middle-earth in human form to help combat Sauron. Did he facilitate > Olorin's journey from Valinor back to the peak of Caradhras? It > would seem that Olorin left Middle Earth, yet could not have left > Arda (since he and the other Valar & Maiar were bound to it until the > End). That's a good point, I had never considered. Why would one of the Ainu leave Ea ('time and space') upon the death of the hroa? Such a fate is only supposed to given to Mortals. Eru must have intervened even upon Gandalf's death to do so. Story externally, I think Tolkien may have written that passage before he fully realised Gandalf's angelic nature. > > Was the fact that his powers were limited the reason why he could not > re-occupy and rebuild his body without help? Unlike the raiment other Ainur may adopt or dispose of at will, the hroar of the Istari was "real not feigned" (Tolkien's words). In other words, they were not at liberty to change their forms any more than the Eruhini. And like the Eruhini, they were subject to the weaknesses, hunger, thirst, etc., inherent with being incarnate. Is the opposite of this > the reason why Melian was able to simply leave Middle Earth and > return to Aman without boarding a ship, or swimming? Yes. Troels and I have been discussing these very points in this same thread. > Would you say then that Gandalf was partially telekinetic? How else > would he have been able to lift Faramir? Nowhere is it written that > Gandalf The White appeared to be physically more muscular than > Gandalf The Grey. I don't see anything especially superhuman about that. Little old ladies have been reported to have lifted cars after accidents when the urgency and the adrenaline is there. > > Also, I understand that he was allowed to use his powers more openly, > but what was the nature of this "enhancement"? I'm not sure there is much more written as to the specifics of that. I just took it to mean that he was more powerful. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:32:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.230.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1105929133 24.160.230.42 (Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:32:13 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:32:13 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167750 Tar-Elenion wrote: > He did leave Arda. He even left Ea (the Universe): > "Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I > wandered far on roads that I will not tell." > LotR, TTT > Gandalf left the created universe (of which time is a part) and was > not in Valinor before returning as the White. > A point I have never considered is why, upon death, did Gandalf's spirit leave Ea like a Mortal's would? I realise that Eru intervened by enhancing and reincarnating Gandalf, but had Eru intervened even at the point of his death? -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 26 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:09:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.234 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1105949354 172.27.158.234 (Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:09:14 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:09:14 EET Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!195.197.54.117.MISMATCH!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167759 in , Bill O'Meally enriched us with: > > Tar-Elenion wrote: >> [Gandalf's death] >> He did leave Arda. He even left Ea (the Universe): > > A point I have never considered is why, upon death, did Gandalf's > spirit leave Ea like a Mortal's would? I realise that Eru intervened > by enhancing and reincarnating Gandalf, but had Eru intervened even > at the point of his death? Exactly at the point of Gandalf's death; "Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure." (Letter #156). The failure is, as described earlier in the letter, Gandalf's self-sacrifice (because he was the last of the messengers to stay true to the mission). -- Troels Forchhammer The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to. - (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods) ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 119 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:37:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.234 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1105951069 172.27.158.234 (Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:37:49 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:37:49 EET Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!proxad.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167760 in , Bill O'Meally enriched us with: > > Ancalagon The Black wrote: >> >> For me, it would seem that the Istari were not instructed to >> create these bodies according to a specification laid down by >> the Valar, but were *given* these mortal bodies to inhabit and >> use for their mission. > > I believe so too. It sounds fine with me as well. There is at least ample evidence that the incarnation of the Istari is fundamentally different from the usual self-arrayal of the Ainur, and this would seem a good way to explain the origin of that difference, if not the specifics. >> Although this is not made explicit, I think that the bodies were >> created by Eru, and it was only by the inherent power of the Maiar >> spirit that the body was preserved against the ravages of time. > > There we disagree. The mission was that of the Valar, not Eru, > although they did so with his consent. It is not stated anywhere that > I know of that he was directly involved apart from reincarnating > Gandalf. Actually I think it is stated quite clearly that Eru didn't get involved until that point: "He [Gandalf, TF] was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure." (Letter #156). > The hroar of the Istari were the work of the Valar, IMO just > as the reincarnation of the Eldar was the work of the Valar. That's a good parallel, I think. > UT states that the Valar "sent members of their own high order, > but clad in bodies as of Men", suggesting that they did the > "cladding". Agreed. The next question, for me, becomes whether the fëar of the Istari were limited by other than obligation to the Valar and their mission before they were allowed to enter the hröar constructed for them? The reduction in potency of the Istari compared to such Maiar that became bound to their hröar (and who, in their origin, were of comparable Valinórean stature -- e.g. Sauron) that it does seem to me to be more than merely the weakness of 'real' flesh. >> I believe this preservation effect was similar in source to the >> preservation effects of the One Ring, since that had a great deal of >> Sauron's spiritual power held within it, the difference being that >> "natural" Mortal with the One ages "on the inside". > > More likely, it was the power of the fea over the hroa, much like that > which occurs in the preservation of Elves' bodies. In a Maia, the > process would be all the stronger. Also the preservation, the ability to stay the effect of time, was the main power of all the Rings of Power -- not just the One Ring. I'm not sure that I'd accept the idea that the Elven Smiths similarly externalised the power of their fëar by instilling it in the other 19 Rings of Power -- while strong and powerful, the fëar of the Noldorin smiths were, after all, not the match of Sauron's, and they couldn't have hoped or planned to keep all the Rings for themselves, as Sauron did with the Master Ring. >> Gandalf the White did not appear to have a mortal body, since his >> spirit could be seen shining through it, although the same could be >> said of the Eldar. He did seem to have a great deal more physical >> strength though... > > Gandalf the White's body was as real as Gandalf the Grey's. As "the > White", he was enhanced by Eru, and he was allowed to use his powers > more openly than was "the Grey". Again this is explicitly stated in letter #156: " But if it is 'cheating' to treat 'death' as making no difference, embodiment must not be ignored. Gandalf may be enhanced in power (that is, under the forms of this fable, in sanctity), but if still embodied he must still suffer care and anxiety, and the needs of flesh. He has no more (if no less) certitudes, or freedoms, than say a living theologian." That, however, returns me to the question of this enhancing. If the hröa of Gandalf the White is no less 'real and not feigned' than that of Gandalf the Grey, if he is no less 'incarnate' after his resurrection, then of what kind is this enhancement of his powers? While some of the restrictions on him may have been loosened slightly, there is also an actual increase of his powers -- he is now more powerful than Saruman, who would no longer have obeyed the obligations placed on him. This returns me to the idea that the power of the Istari was reduced, or limited, in three ways when they accepted their mission. By making them 'incarnate', by forbidding them to use 'open display of power', but also by another limitation, possibly of their fëar (while the mission lasted). It would, in that case, be this last limitation that was, at least partially, lifted by Eru when he resurrected Gandalf (as well as allowing him some greater freedom to display his power when needed). -- Troels Forchhammer I USHERED SOULS INTO THE NEXT WORLD. I WAS THE GRAVE OF ALL HOPE. I WAS THE ULTIMATE REALITY. I WAS THE ASSASSIN AGAINST WHOM NO LOCK WOULD HOLD. "Yes, point taken, but do you have any particular skills?" - Death consults a job broker (Terry Pratchett, Mort) ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:50:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.234 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1105951844 172.27.158.234 (Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:50:44 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:50:44 EET Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!proxad.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!195.197.54.117.MISMATCH!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167761 in , Bill O'Meally enriched us with: > > Ancalagon The Black wrote: >> >> Also, if the Valar created "Gandalf" (the body), and Olorin occupied >> that body, what exactly was Eru's involvement? > > "Gandalf" was simply one of many names given to the Maia Olorin who > was sent to Middle-earth in human form to help combat Sauron. Yes. The power to build a new hröa for an 'unhoused' Elven fëa was one of the powers that were explicitly delegated to the Valar by Eru, and I don't think they would have had to consult Eru before extending that right to the case of the Istari. >> Did he facilitate Olorin's journey from Valinor back to the peak of >> Caradhras? It would seem that Olorin left Middle Earth, yet could >> not have left Arda (since he and the other Valar & Maiar were bound >> to it until the End). > > That's a good point, I had never considered. Why would one of the Ainu > leave Ea ('time and space') upon the death of the hroa? Such a fate is > only supposed to given to Mortals. Eru must have intervened even upon > Gandalf's death to do so. Story externally, I think Tolkien may have > written that passage before he fully realised Gandalf's angelic > nature. The letter that I have quoted elsewhere in this thread regarding this issue (#156) was written in 1954, which was of course long after Tolkien first wrote that passage, but I think his explanations there follow naturally from the passages in the book -- that Eru intervened at the exact moment of Gandalf's death and lifted his fëa out of Eä. Tolkien must have known Gandalf's nature in the final reviewing/editing of the text (before the release of the first edition), and he chose to let it stand as it were -- probably (IMO) because it fit his idea about the intervention of Eru, reflecting the place that providence has in the story -- Troels Forchhammer One who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in fetters. - Aragorn "Strider", 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien) ###### X-Proxy-User: $$nnmvwqeaa0shkm Message-ID: <1105969138_6@news-west.n> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:34:32 +0000 References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1> Lines: 24 User-Agent: KNode/0.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Comments: This message was posted through It was more like the bodies were created for the Maiar that were > selected for the task of being Istari; namely Olorin, Curuno, > Aiwendil, Alatar and Pallando. I don't think they created a body and > then said, "Hey! Olorin! This one would fit you nicely!" :-) Why not? I stated it that way because I am of the opinion that self-incarnation by an Ainu would not naturally produce a body that would be subject to the wear and tear of mortal lands. I think that in order to further constrain the Maiar selected for the mission, the Valar created bodies for them that would allow (force them?) them to appear humble and non-threatening, not lordly, so they choose the bodies of old men, rather than young warriors. Unless of course the Valar allowed them to self-incarnate, but somehow manipulated the process, making sure that the created body was real flesh and blood, subject to the ways of mortality. Best, -- Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net ###### X-Proxy-User: $$nnmvwqeaa0shkm Message-ID: <1105969176_7@news-west.n> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:35:12 +0000 References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1> Lines: 39 User-Agent: KNode/0.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Comments: This message was posted through The failure is, as described earlier in the letter, Gandalf's > self-sacrifice (because he was the last of the messengers to stay > true to the mission). > Do you think "Gandalf" (to make the distinction) willingly left Ea, or was he taken? Olorin of course was aware of his own beginnings, but Gandalf and the rest of the Istari only seemed to have Valinor as a distant memory, not that which lay beyond Ea. To me, a return to Valinor, specifically the Halls Of Mandos (like the Elves), would have been natural. Did Eru make Gandalf aware of "the longer path", at the point of his death (sorry, "at the point he left his body"), or did he simply scoop him up and take him beyond Ea? Also, do you think Eru enhanced him a few notches up the scale, or did he fully restore his memory and power, trusting that he would continue to conceal it, having stayed true to the mission thus far? I ask this because of the statement that Gandalf makes at the end of the book: "Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...". Do you think that Gandalf the Grey would have remembered "Olorin", or was this part of the memory that was restored to him? On a slightly tangential note, when the Valar first settled in Arda and took on solid forms, what did these look like? They did not have a clear idea what the Children of Eru looked like yet - it is explicitly stated in Silm. that this was not clear to Aule when he made the Dwarves, so what "template" the Valar use for their own forms? Best, -- Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net ###### From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:22:07 GMT Organization: Topiary of Cthulhu Lines: 40 Message-ID: <41ebe5d8.10783946@news.compuserve.com> References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mid-tgn-ngg-vty128.as.wcom.net X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1105978977 2369 216.192.74.128 (17 Jan 2005 16:22:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:22:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167774 On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:58:56 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer" wrote: > If Curumo >from the beginning was 'the peer of Sauron', and if the restrictions of >his powers were due only to his incarnation and an obligation not to use >them, why, then, would his fëa, freed of its material prison, be so >impotent as described in the Scouring? > >I think this is where the idea of binding externalised power in their >staffs enters the picture, though that doesn't appear a satisfying >explanation either -- in part because I get the sense that the potency >gained by externalising one's power is an evil motif in Tolkien's >legendarium (Sauron and Melkor/Morgoth both externalised their power in >the attempt to gain domination and control). Indeed: you merely have it backwards! I think the "a wizard's power is in his staff" notion has been adequately debunked elsewhere, so I won't go into the reasons why I disbelieve it. OTOH, we do know, quite explicitly and certainly, that Sauron's power was bound up into the Ring. It was just this externalization of his power that allowed him to survive (twice!) the destruction of his hroa and build a new one. Gandalf, without an externalization of his power, couldn't do that without the intervention of Eru. Neither could Saruman. Similarly, Balrogs killed in ME didn't come back, and Elves can't rebuild their hroa without going to Mandos first (and presumably getting help). I don't think we have any examples of "good" Maia having their hroa slain other than Gandalf, but I'm sure they would follow the same pattern. Jim Deutch (Jimbocat) -- "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Theodore Roosevelt, 26th US President (1858-1919) ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 01:39:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.230.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1106012341 24.160.230.42 (Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:39:01 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:39:01 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-server.columbus.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167820 Troels Forchhammer wrote: > in , > Bill O'Meally enriched us with: >> >> Tar-Elenion wrote: >>> > [Gandalf's death] >>> He did leave Arda. He even left Ea (the Universe): >> >> A point I have never considered is why, upon death, did Gandalf's >> spirit leave Ea like a Mortal's would? I realise that Eru intervened >> by enhancing and reincarnating Gandalf, but had Eru intervened even >> at the point of his death? > > Exactly at the point of Gandalf's death; "Authority had taken up this > plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure." (Letter #156). > > The failure is, as described earlier in the letter, Gandalf's > self-sacrifice (because he was the last of the messengers to stay > true to the mission). Thanks for clarifying that. The "...at the moment of its failure" bit had eluded me. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1> <1105969176_7@news-west.n> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 01:43:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.230.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1106012621 24.160.230.42 (Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:43:41 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:43:41 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-server.columbus.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167827 Ancalagon The Black wrote: > Do you think "Gandalf" (to make the distinction) willingly left Ea, > or was he taken? Olorin of course was aware of his own beginnings, > but Gandalf and the rest of the Istari only seemed to have Valinor as > a distant memory, not that which lay beyond Ea. To me, a return to > Valinor, specifically the Halls Of Mandos (like the Elves), would > have been natural. Had Eru not intervened, he probably would have returned to Valinor, but not to Mandos. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1> <1105969176_7@news-west.n> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 57 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:54:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.234 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1106042060 172.27.158.234 (Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:54:20 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:54:20 EET Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167842 in <1105969176_7@news-west.n>, Ancalagon The Black enriched us with: > > Troels Forchhammer wrote: >> >> The failure is, as described earlier in the letter, Gandalf's >> self-sacrifice (because he was the last of the messengers to stay >> true to the mission). > > Do you think "Gandalf" (to make the distinction) willingly left Ea, > or was he taken? Actually I'm not sure that it is really a meaningful question with respect to Gandalf and Eru. He was a Maia who remained faithful to his quest and to Eru, so all he wanted was to do Eru's will -- by his sacrifice he put the completion of his own mission in the hands of Eru, trusting Eru to do what was right. Eru, furthermore, was (is?) infinite -- he knew Gandalf's mind, and he knew what it would have been had he still been Olórin. > Olorin of course was aware of his own beginnings, but Gandalf and > the rest of the Istari only seemed to have Valinor as a distant > memory, not that which lay beyond Ea. To me, a return to Valinor, > specifically the Halls Of Mandos (like the Elves), would have been > natural. I am sure that that was more or less what Gandalf expected -- to have to return to the West (recalling also the actions of Saruman's shape after his death). I don't know if he would return to Mandos or simply to Aman, but that is not, IMO, the key point (is there anything about where Melian went after her death? Somewhere in HoMe?) > Also, do you think Eru enhanced him a few notches up the scale, or > did he fully restore his memory and power, trusting that he would > continue to conceal it, having stayed true to the mission thus far? As far as I can see, Gandalf the White was still incarnate in the same sense as Gandalf the Grey. That would mean that the limitations and diminishments brought about by the body of the incarnate being would still be in effect -- for instance the effect of his memory (though it /was/ affected: he was not merely restored to the same memory as when he fell, "I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten.") In particular I think that the memory of his life as Olórin in Aman would remain of the same order as before. -- Troels Forchhammer "It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent whatsoever," he said. "Have you thought of going into teaching?" - (Terry Pratchett, Mort) ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41ebe5d8.10783946@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 76 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:07:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.234 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1106042844 172.27.158.234 (Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:07:24 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:07:24 EET Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167843 in <41ebe5d8.10783946@news.compuserve.com>, Jim Deutch <103134.3516@compuserve.com> enriched us with: > > On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:58:56 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer" > wrote: >> >> If Curumo from the beginning was 'the peer of Sauron', and if the >> restrictions of his powers were due only to his incarnation and >> an obligation not to use them, why, then, would his fëa, freed of >> its material prison, be so impotent as described in the Scouring? >> >> I think this is where the idea of binding externalised power in their >> staffs enters the picture, though that doesn't appear a satisfying >> explanation either -- in part because I get the sense that the >> potency gained by externalising one's power is an evil motif in >> Tolkien's legendarium (Sauron and Melkor/Morgoth both externalised >> their power in the attempt to gain domination and control). > > Indeed: you merely have it backwards! I think the "a wizard's power > is in his staff" notion has been adequately debunked elsewhere, so I > won't go into the reasons why I disbelieve it. I know. I haven't looked into it recently, but I'm sure that we had good reasons to dismiss it ;-) As I recall it, most of the reasons, however, had to do with the nature of the Istari, and it is, perhaps, those reasons that I challenge (I specifically say that I don't think it's a good idea, but that doesn't mean that all the arguments presented earlier to dismiss it are good ones). > OTOH, we do know, quite explicitly and certainly, that Sauron's power > was bound up into the Ring. It was just this externalization of his > power that allowed him to survive (twice!) the destruction of his hroa > and build a new one. Gandalf, without an externalization of his > power, couldn't do that without the intervention of Eru. Neither > could Saruman. That particular point, however, is not one of the good reasons. Both Gandalf and Saruman, if part of their power was externalised in their staffs, would be in the same situation as Sauron after the destruction of the One Ring, not as Sauron at the end of the Second Age or the Akallabêth. > Similarly, Balrogs killed in ME didn't come back, Balrog's had much less power than Sauron to begin with, and the Istari were, according to UT, 'peers of Sauron'. > and Elves can't rebuild their hroa without going to Mandos first > (and presumably getting help). IIRC the idea that the Elvish hröa would have to be rebuilt by the Valar was constant through all versions that didn't have them resurrected by rebirth (i.e. as a new Elvish baby). > I don't think we have any examples of "good" Maia having their hroa > slain other than Gandalf, but I'm sure they would follow the same > pattern. Melian died, IIRC, but she wasn't slain. But there was still a difference between Melian and Gandalf. Melian was, however much she had become bound to her hröa a self-arrayed Maia who only 'approached' the state of incarnation, whereas the Istari were incarnate. That might, however, also provide a clue to the solution. I'd have to go back to MR, though, but IIRC there is something about the relationship between the fëa and the hröa of the incarnate that differs fundamentally from that of the spirits. It may be in this difference that the solution should be sought rather than in fantastic ideas of externalisation of power ;-) -- Troels Forchhammer +++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++ - (Terry Pratchett, Hogfather) ###### Message-ID: <41edb0f1_5@127.0.0.1> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 01:07:31 +0000 References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1> <1105969176_7@news-west.n> Lines: 18 User-Agent: KNode/0.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Authenticated-User: $$nnmvwqeaa0shkm X-Comments: This message was posted through I am sure that that was more or less what Gandalf expected -- to > have to return to the West (recalling also the actions of Saruman's > shape after his death). I don't know if he would return to Mandos or > simply to Aman, but that is not, IMO, the key point (is there > anything about where Melian went after her death? Somewhere in > HoMe?) > Melian "disappeared out of Middle Earth" and returned to the gardens of Lorien "to muse upon her sorrows" after the death of Thingol. This is in The Silmarillion. Best, -- Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: 19 Jan 2005 02:57:09 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 31 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41ebe5d8.10783946@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pacific.cse.msu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AUTHid: wagners5 User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.9 (sun4u)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167897 Troels Forchhammer wrote: : in <41ebe5d8.10783946@news.compuserve.com>, : Jim Deutch <103134.3516@compuserve.com> enriched us with: :> :> I don't think we have any examples of "good" Maia having their hroa :> slain other than Gandalf, but I'm sure they would follow the same :> pattern. : Melian died, IIRC, but she wasn't slain. But there was still a difference : between Melian and Gandalf. Melian was, however much she had become bound : to her hröa a self-arrayed Maia who only 'approached' the state of : incarnation, whereas the Istari were incarnate. I do not think Melian ever "died" in any version of the mythology. Of course that is one of the least developed chapters of the mythology. In the Silmarillion it says "Thereafter Melian spoke to none save Mablung only, bidding him take heed to the Silmaril, and to send word speedily to Beren and Luthien in Ossiriand; and she vanished out of Middle-earth, and passed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lorien, whence she came, and this tale speaks of her no more." That does not sound like dying to me. If we go way back to "The Book of Lost Tales" when Melian was named Gwendelin we find: "Thereafter did Gwendelin abide a while in the woods among them and was healed; and in the end she fared wistfully back to the land of Lorien and came never again into the tales of the dwellers of Earth;" Stephen ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:33:49 +0100 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <356ussF4irs1jU1@individual.net> References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1> <1105969176_7@news-west.n> <41edb0f1_5@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: individual.net yDz8vrCyhjW6Yeslo9vArgyHmeHDTO4jz+YkmZDuCdmDBBwkwV X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167922 in <41edb0f1_5@127.0.0.1>, Ancalagon The Black enriched us with: > > Melian "disappeared out of Middle Earth" and returned to the gardens > of Lorien "to muse upon her sorrows" after the death of Thingol. > This is in The Silmarillion. Thanks -- so I might even recall wrongly when claiming she died? -- Troels Forchhammer This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:03:42 +0100 Lines: 47 Message-ID: <3570kuF4ifjedU1@individual.net> References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41ebe5d8.10783946@news.compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net o5cqfbk+yyBDkOKANltOsgkWo/FWMhJf2FAPhfcphhkSNglUHd X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167923 in , stephen@nomail.com enriched us with: > > I do not think Melian ever "died" in any version of the mythology. I'm discovering that, thanks ;-) (Ancalagon the Black just gave the Silmarillion passage elsewhere in the thread.) I don't know where the Silmarillion passage comes from -- /Quenta Noldorinwa/? The Tale of Years in WotJ agree in all versions that Melian returned to Valinor before the War of Wrath (and before Eärendil's voyage) -- better give CT's summary: [War of the Jewels, 3,V 'The Tale of Years'] " 504 Dior's return to Doriath has been given already under 503 in D1, the typescript part of the text. - In the B and C versions (pp. 346-7) Melian brought the Silmaril to Beren and Lúthien in Ossiriand and then departed to Valinor, and this is also in D1 (p. 350). The present entry in D2, a year later, repeats that Melian went to Valinor, and the suggestion is that she was in Doriath when Dior came; cf. the note cipted on p. 350: 'Dior . . . appears in Doriath after its ruin, and is welcomed by Melian'. This seems clearly to have been the story in AB1 (IV.307) and AB2 (V141-2). But it is impossible to be certain of anything with such compressed entries." It doesn't seem that she did 'die' in the sense of the incarnate (or as did Sauron), though I'm not sure how she's supposed to have reached Valinor with a hröa. In the context of the present discussions, I would venture that Thingol's death severed the bond between her fëa and hröa (or at least significantly weakened it) so that she could finally 'disarray' herself of the hröa and return to Valinor as a disembodied fëa... -- Troels Forchhammer A good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read. - (Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!) ###### Message-ID: <41ee4de9_4@127.0.0.1> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:17:15 +0000 References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1> <1105969176_7@news-west.n> <41edb0f1_5@127.0.0.1> <356ussF4irs1jU1@individual.net> Lines: 26 User-Agent: KNode/0.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Authenticated-User: $$nnmvwqeaa0shkm X-Comments: This message was posted through in <41edb0f1_5@127.0.0.1>, > Ancalagon The Black enriched us > with: >> > > > >> Melian "disappeared out of Middle Earth" and returned to the >> gardens of Lorien "to muse upon her sorrows" after the death of >> Thingol. This is in The Silmarillion. > > Thanks -- so I might even recall wrongly when claiming she died? > That is the question: did she leave her body behind, or did she deconstruct it? The fact that she "disappeared out of Middle Earth" would suggest that there was no trace of her body, nor was there any suggestion that she went somewhere secret and then "died". Surely her clothes would have been left behind? Assuming she wore any... Best, -- Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: 19 Jan 2005 16:42:35 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net UAtxKokIOI7dzCE5Lx4ghgmtDLj6ESK6I5Ir95fX7y8OwaKSAb User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167933 On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:31:05 +0000, Ancalagon The Black wrote: > > Although this is not made explicit, I think that the bodies were > created by Eru, and it was only by the inherent power of the Maiar > spirit that the body was preserved against the ravages of time. > I also believe that this incarnation process has an inherent effect on > memory, unless their memories were deliberately wiped by Eru. Woh there! That's an enormous leap. Is it really within the nature of the mythos that Eru jumps in and intervenes like this? I don't buy it, and without some textual evidence, I can think of no reason that we (or at least I) should just stick with what we know, that the Ainur were self-arraying and that the raiment could, on occasion, have an influence on the Ainu's abilities. It seems to me that some folks are beginning to use Eru as a convenient "god of the gaps" (pun intended) argument. That is, whenever we run up against some topic that doesn't have an answer, or at least an easy or straightforward answer, that suddenly somebody will say "I think Eru did it." -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: 19 Jan 2005 16:44:10 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41eaf760_4@127.0.0.1> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net x3Ktw/+Mt+HwN2PlG9aSoww5wrLJgnrXvgUfc9wicWrJE3FatE User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167934 On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:32:13 GMT, Bill O'Meally wrote: > Tar-Elenion wrote: > >> He did leave Arda. He even left Ea (the Universe): >> "Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I >> wandered far on roads that I will not tell." >> LotR, TTT >> Gandalf left the created universe (of which time is a part) and was >> not in Valinor before returning as the White. >> > > A point I have never considered is why, upon death, did Gandalf's spirit > leave Ea like a Mortal's would? I realise that Eru intervened by > enhancing and reincarnating Gandalf, but had Eru intervened even at the > point of his death? I don't think it left so much as Eru grabbed Gandalf's fea and yanked it out. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:15:24 GMT Organization: Topiary of Cthulhu Lines: 26 Message-ID: <41ee94b0.99339893@news.compuserve.com> References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41ebe5d8.10783946@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mid-tgn-ney-vty1.as.wcom.net X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1106154976 19373 216.192.72.1 (19 Jan 2005 17:16:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:16:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167936 On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:07:24 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer" wrote: >in <41ebe5d8.10783946@news.compuserve.com>, >Jim Deutch <103134.3516@compuserve.com> enriched us with: >> >> On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:58:56 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer" >> wrote: >> OTOH, we do know, quite explicitly and certainly, that Sauron's power >> was bound up into the Ring. It was just this externalization of his >> power that allowed him to survive (twice!) the destruction of his hroa >> and build a new one. Gandalf, without an externalization of his >> power, couldn't do that without the intervention of Eru. Neither >> could Saruman. > >That particular point, however, is not one of the good reasons. Both >Gandalf and Saruman, if part of their power was externalised in their >staffs, would be in the same situation as Sauron after the destruction of >the One Ring, not as Sauron at the end of the Second Age or the >Akallabêth. Hmm, yes, good point: I wasn't thinking (point to softrat). Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- "I made a mistake but I will never admit it ." - habshi on sci.physics ###### Message-ID: <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:34:44 +0000 References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> Lines: 19 User-Agent: KNode/0.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Authenticated-User: $$nnmvwqeaa0shkm X-Comments: This message was posted through It seems to me that some folks are beginning to use Eru as a > convenient "god > of the gaps" (pun intended) argument. That is, whenever we run up > against some topic that doesn't have an answer, or at least an easy > or straightforward answer, that suddenly somebody will say "I think > Eru did it." > Personally, I try to keep Eru out of it as much as possible when formulating an argument for debate in this group, but from reading some of the text quoted in this thread, it seems that in this case (the Istari mission) Eru seemed to have quite an influence. Best, -- Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: 19 Jan 2005 23:49:24 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net g/KxpA3NzJrYJT6hOnfeFQc9s3471NKLXO5uNVoVWR9U/Mj0ru User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167961 On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:34:44 +0000, Ancalagon The Black wrote: > AC wrote: > >> It seems to me that some folks are beginning to use Eru as a >> convenient "god >> of the gaps" (pun intended) argument. That is, whenever we run up >> against some topic that doesn't have an answer, or at least an easy >> or straightforward answer, that suddenly somebody will say "I think >> Eru did it." >> > > Personally, I try to keep Eru out of it as much as possible when > formulating an argument for debate in this group, but from reading > some of the text quoted in this thread, it seems that in this case > (the Istari mission) Eru seemed to have quite an influence. Again, I don't understand your justification. The only thing the texts say is that Eru intervened at the point of Gandalf's death. That same Letter makes it clear that the original plan was the Valar's, and mentions nothing of Eru being part of the formulation (though I suppose it's possible or maybe even likely that Manwe may have consulted Eru). Eru only enters the scheme when that plan fails; namely that the only one of the Istari to remain faithful to his purpose had just physically died in a confrontation with an ancient Power to save the Ringbearer. Not only that, but Eru enlarged upon the original plan, so it really doesn't sound to my ears at all like Eru had much directly to do with the Istari at all. This is rather consistent with the idea that the Valar are the governors of Arda. It was their job to take care of Sauron. Whenever Eru has got directly involved, we've heard about it. Whether it was giving the Dwarves fea, or popping His children (Elves and Men) into creation, drowning Numenor and altering the shape of the world, or dragging Gandalf out of creation and enhancing him before popping him back in, we know about it. Since there's nothing, to my mind, odd about some Ainur taking on physical raimant that limits their native powers, particularly at the behest of the Valar, I see no reason at all to invoke God. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:26:06 -0600 From: R. Dan Henry Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:26:09 -0800 Message-ID: References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.25.63.249 X-Trace: sv3-sgFCgnmAzqkfrJBt4xaWJZ6hR0z7Xv58W7lg1OrDMOGm+BDH0kEksUOyfTDoeP+FzuC0BisXJvBjBKl!/xzpedu4Pv44zGHXL7TTq+dEFjxxaS8yOaW2cVVHuPkS0YudgPiADAAATwh/qgUkAHIG6OBsfXo4!OEcIIR+jUwF1vt7qh+UOoVI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!nella.toplink-plannet.de!feed.news.toplink-plannet.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.inreach.com!news.inreach.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167969 On 19 Jan 2005 23:49:24 GMT, AC wrote: >Whenever Eru has got directly involved, we've heard about it. This is an untestable assumption. It does not follow from having records of *some* things that Eru did that we therefore have records of *all* he did or even all of the *major* interventions. R. Dan Henry danhenry@inreach.com ###### Message-ID: <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 22:33:35 +0000 References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> Lines: 22 User-Agent: KNode/0.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Authenticated-User: $$nnmvwqeaa0shkm X-Comments: This message was posted through Ainur taking on physical raimant that limits their native powers, > particularly at the behest of the Valar, I see no reason at all to > invoke God. > This is where we differ. For me, I would think that constructing an honest-to-Eru body, failings and vulnerabilities included, would not be something that would come naturally to an Ainu, as opposed to the deconstructable forms that they use in Aman, and when travelling in the mortal lands. Of course, it is not made explicit anywhere that they had help constructing these bodies, either... Best, -- Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: 21 Jan 2005 07:24:28 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net 3B+WqF7cG+hhJj+bXSlQMgmDxxHTF8WWT0Lw5g/j7JMjzV0wtq User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168025 On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 22:33:35 +0000, Ancalagon The Black wrote: > AC wrote: > > Since there's nothing, to my mind, odd about some >> Ainur taking on physical raimant that limits their native powers, >> particularly at the behest of the Valar, I see no reason at all to >> invoke God. >> > > This is where we differ. For me, I would think that constructing an > honest-to-Eru body, failings and vulnerabilities included, would not > be something that would come naturally to an Ainu, as opposed to the > deconstructable forms that they use in Aman, and when travelling in > the mortal lands. > > Of course, it is not made explicit anywhere that they had help > constructing these bodies, either... Then how do you explain Melian, who apparently had a body of an Elf, and was thus able to bear a child? -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### Message-ID: <41f19621_5@127.0.0.1> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:02:15 +0000 References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> Lines: 54 User-Agent: KNode/0.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Authenticated-User: $$nnmvwqeaa0shkm X-Comments: This message was posted through Then how do you explain Melian, who apparently had a body of an Elf, > and was thus able to bear a child? > ;-) I can't, not entirely. There is no evidence that Melian died in the normal sense, i.e left her body behind while her /fea/ returned to the gardens of Lorien. Assuming she didn't, her body must have been deconstructable, even after bearing a child. Also, an Elf /hroa/ would not be subject to the same physical hurts and hungers as a Man /hroa/, depending on the "accuracy" of the constructed body. An important question here is this: what determines the difference in "shelf life" between an Elf /hroa/ and a Man /hroa/? Is the Elf /hroa/ naturally more resistant to illness and injury, or is it the power of the Elf /fea/ that keeps those things at bay? If an Elf was born into the /hroa/ of a Man, would that /hroa/ last as long as a typical Elf /hroa/? What if a Man /fea/ was born into a Elf /hroa/? Would he sill die, and if so, how long until this happened? I was going to cite Elros, but that doesn't quite fit. Also, would there be an issue of "compatibility" between an immortal /fea/ and a /hroa/ originally meant for a mortal /fea/? Olorin (as Gandalf) was quite possibly so curtailed by his mission, and further by being in the /hroa/ of a mortal Man, that when his body became badly damaged, he did not have enough power available to him to either repair what was there, deconstruct it and create a new one, or create a new one and leave the old one on the mountain top. At that point Eru chose to intervene. OTOH, Sauron we know could easily construct and deconstruct forms to suit his needs, and could even afford to leave bodies behind. Witness the battle with Huan, where he changed from a wolf to a snake to a "monster" (what was that anyway, and why didn't he simply deconstruct it?) and then left that (apparently still constructed) body behind, before turning into a bat resembling Thuringwethil, and flying off into Taur-nu-Fuin. Sauron then lost his body in the destruction of Numenor, and again in the battle with Elendil and Gil-Galad, yet after a while still had enough power to construct a new body, and became known as the Necromancer. Question: How come there was no Girdle of Sauron? It sounds like just the sort of thing he would do, yet he never did... Apologies for the long post (read: ramble)! Best, -- Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> <41f19621_5@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-ID: <58kId.219045$ye4.29656@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 03:54:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.230.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1106366081 24.160.230.42 (Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:54:41 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:54:41 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168043 Ancalagon The Black wrote: > An important question here is this: what determines the difference in > "shelf life" between an Elf /hroa/ and a Man /hroa/? Is the > Elf /hroa/ naturally more resistant to illness and injury, or is it > the power of the Elf /fea/ that keeps those things at bay? The latter. If an Elf > was born into the /hroa/ of a Man, would that /hroa/ last as long as > a typical Elf /hroa/? Biologically, they are the same. In other words, there really is no such thing as an "Elf hroa" vs a "Man hroa". It was the power of the Elf fea over the hroa that made the difference. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 85 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:57:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.146 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1106913435 172.27.158.146 (Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:57:15 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:57:15 EET Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168221 In message , AC enriched us with: > > On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 22:33:35 +0000, > Ancalagon The Black wrote: >> AC wrote: >> >>> Since there's nothing, to my mind, odd about some Ainur taking >>> on physical raimant that limits their native powers, particularly >>> at the behest of the Valar, I see no reason at all to invoke God. >> >> This is where we differ. For me, I would think that constructing >> an honest-to-Eru body, failings and vulnerabilities included, would >> not be something that would come naturally to an Ainu, as opposed >> to the deconstructable forms that they use in Aman, and when >> travelling in the mortal lands. >> >> Of course, it is not made explicit anywhere that they had help >> constructing these bodies, either... > > Then how do you explain Melian, who apparently had a body of an Elf, > and was thus able to bear a child? Melian was a case of self-arrayal, as it is termed in Ósanwe-kenta. I don't think there is any doubt that the Ainur, all of them, could create this kind 'raiment' hröar without any help -- in /The Silmarillion/ it is clearly described as something they do for themselves: " Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar, save only in majesty and splendour. Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being." (Silm 'Ainulindalë') But it is also explained in MR that they Valar had both the authority and the power to create a new hröa for an unhoused Elf: " Eru answered: 'Let the body that was destroyed be re-made. Or let the naked fëa be re-born as a child.' Manwë said: 'Is it Thy will that we should attempt these things? For we fear to meddle with Thy Children.' Eru answered: Have I not given to the Valar the rule of Arda, and power over all the substance thereof, to shape it at their will under My will? Ye have not been backward in these things. As for my First-born, have ye not removed great numbers of them to Aman from the Middle-earth in which I set them?'" [Morgoth's Ring 4,II App 'The Converse of Manwë and Eru' and later conceptions of Elvish reincarnation] Thus there can, as I see it, be little doubt that it was within both the power and the authority of the Valar to create an incarnate hröa even for some of their own order (the Istari). The earlier text in 'Laws and Customs' refer only to reincarnation by child-birth, witch, in the text quoted above, is specifically said to be beyond the powers of the Valar and the province of Eru alone. I'm not sure what Tolkien's ideas would have been with respect to the incarnation of the Istari when he wrote LotR, but in the light of his comments in /Letters/ (in particular "was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar" in #156 from 1954) I doubt that he thought that Eru was involved. It is, IMO, likely that the differences between the incarnation of the Istari and the normal self-arrayal by the Ainur weren't clearly envisioned at the time LotR was completed. The Istari were limited even in comparison with self-arrayed Maiar such as Melian or Sauron, but the details of the limitations need, perhaps, not have been thought out at first. -- Troels Forchhammer Valid e-mail is t.forch(a)email.dk Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind. - (Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man) ###### X-Proxy-User: $$nnmvwqeaa0shkm Message-ID: <1107726273_4355@exe-east.n> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:45:57 +0000 References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> Lines: 33 User-Agent: KNode/0.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Comments: This message was posted through But it is also explained in MR that they Valar had both the > authority and the power to create a new hröa for an unhoused Elf: > > " Eru answered: 'Let the body that was destroyed be > re-made. Or let the naked fëa be re-born as a child.' > Manwë said: 'Is it Thy will that we should attempt these > things? For we fear to meddle with Thy Children.' > Eru answered: Have I not given to the Valar the rule of > Arda, and power over all the substance thereof, to shape it > at their will under My will? Ye have not been backward in > these things. As for my First-born, have ye not removed > great numbers of them to Aman from the Middle-earth in > which I set them?'" > [Morgoth's Ring 4,II App 'The Converse of Manwë and Eru' and later > conceptions of Elvish reincarnation] > > Thus there can, as I see it, be little doubt that it was within both > the power and the authority of the Valar to create an incarnate hröa > even for some of their own order (the Istari). Interesting. I wonder what would happen to the memories of an Elf reunited with a full-grown body (for example Glorfindel and Finrod), as opposed to being reborn as a child? Would they remain intact, or would the reborn Elf have to learn things all over again? Best, -- Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> <1107726273_4355@exe-east.n> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 02:53:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.229.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1107744784 24.160.229.217 (Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:53:04 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:53:04 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!headwall.stanford.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168621 Ancalagon The Black wrote: > Interesting. I wonder what would happen to the memories of an Elf > reunited with a full-grown body (for example Glorfindel and Finrod), > as opposed to being reborn as a child? Would they remain intact, or > would the reborn Elf have to learn things all over again? > > Best, From MR 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar': "For the fea re-born became a child indeed, enjoying once more all the wonder and newness of childhood; but slowly, and only after it had acquired a knowledge of the world and mastery of itself, its memory would awake; until, when the re-born elf was full-grown, it recalled all its former life, and then the old life, and the 'waiting', and the new life became one ordered history and identity. This memory would thus hold a double joy of childhood, and also an experience and knowledge greater than the years of its body..." -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 02:08:47 -0500 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <36oig0F54e43kU3@individual.net> References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> <1107726273_4355@exe-east.n> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: individual.net mVxAHuR9ZsaJDeaxcPo3UQ3GVGneuNxksDz9xadEp4bSx+nI4I User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168637 "Bill O'Meally" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Ancalagon The Black wrote: > >> Interesting. I wonder what would happen to the memories of an Elf >> reunited with a full-grown body (for example Glorfindel and Finrod), >> as opposed to being reborn as a child? Would they remain intact, or >> would the reborn Elf have to learn things all over again? >> >> Best, > >From MR 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar': > >"For the fea re-born became a child indeed, ..." It's true that's there, but it was not Tolkien's only thought on the subject. He wrote at other times that the houseless fea was put back into a reconstructed adult body. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> <1107726273_4355@exe-east.n> <36oig0F54e43kU3@individual.net> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 14:04:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.229.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1107785067 24.160.229.217 (Mon, 07 Feb 2005 08:04:27 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 08:04:27 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-server.columbus.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168639 Stan Brown wrote: > "Bill O'Meally" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> Ancalagon The Black wrote: >> >>> Interesting. I wonder what would happen to the memories of an Elf >>> reunited with a full-grown body (for example Glorfindel and Finrod), >>> as opposed to being reborn as a child? Would they remain intact, or >>> would the reborn Elf have to learn things all over again? >>> >>> Best, >> >> From MR 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar': >> >> "For the fea re-born became a child indeed, ..." > > It's true that's there, but it was not Tolkien's only thought on > the subject. He wrote at other times that the houseless fea was put > back into a reconstructed adult body. Did he ever make a final decision as to how reincarnation occurs, or could it be through both processes? How would the decision be made as to whether a fea would be re-born, or placed back into an adult body? -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:03:08 -0500 Lines: 21 Message-ID: <36phpsF558o0nU4@individual.net> References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> <1107726273_4355@exe-east.n> <36oig0F54e43kU3@individual.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: individual.net 4ceZeSlAIcpss6uin9dKYQSvjaLvTv/B0g+lN3AH8vTFEOLtoe User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168642 "Bill O'Meally" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: [reincarnation of Elves by rebirth or construction of a new adult body] >Did he ever make a final decision as to how reincarnation occurs, or >could it be through both processes? How would the decision be made as to >whether a fea would be re-born, or placed back into an adult body? Did he ever make a final decision about anything? :-) Someone ele may remember something mroe definitive, but as far as I can recall he never definitely rejected either approach. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### Reply-To: "Raven" From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> <1107726273_4355@exe-east.n> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:43:12 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.57 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1107818287 195.82.196.57 (Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:18:07 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:18:07 CET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!uio.no!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168698 "Bill O'Meally" skrev i en meddelelse news:kKANd.3742$w75.1291@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com... > From MR 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar': > "For the fea re-born became a child indeed, enjoying once more all the > wonder and newness of childhood; but slowly, and only after it had > acquired a knowledge of the world and mastery of itself, its memory > would awake; until, when the re-born elf was full-grown, it recalled all > its former life, and then the old life, and the 'waiting', and the new > life became one ordered history and identity. This memory would thus > hold a double joy of childhood, and also an experience and knowledge > greater than the years of its body..." Imagine remembering being potty-trained not only once, but twice. And having two sets of parents. The latter is of course easily achieved by us Men, in this age of frequent divorce and remarriage. :-) *Amer. ###### From: Conrad Dunkerson Reply-To: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> <1107726273_4355@exe-east.n> <36oig0F54e43kU3@individual.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:01:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.89.11.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: trndny08 1107820872 138.89.11.8 (Mon, 07 Feb 2005 19:01:12 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 19:01:12 EST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trndny08.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168699 Bill O'Meally wrote: > Did he ever make a final decision as to how reincarnation occurs, or > could it be through both processes? How would the decision be made > as to whether a fea would be re-born, or placed back into an adult > body? The 'rebirth as a child' idea was the original, but Tolkien replaced it with the 're-housed in adult bodies' concept. There was a transitional phase where both were present, but the 're-housed' idea won out. "My father here discussed again the idea that Elvish reincarnation might be achieved by 'rebirth' as a child, and rejected it as emphatically as he had done in the discussion called 'Reincarnation of Elves', X.363-4..." PoME, Last Writings - Note 17 ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:11:48 -0500 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <36qhukF53j09eU5@individual.net> References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> <1107726273_4355@exe-east.n> <36oig0F54e43kU3@individual.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: individual.net zLAdiHCtkcgYrV2jQijagAOW6LGy6kpDAdNtXp67smZ80UgqsI User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168702 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >"My father here discussed again the idea that Elvish reincarnation might >be achieved by 'rebirth' as a child, and rejected it as emphatically as >he had done in the discussion called 'Reincarnation of Elves', X.363-4..." >PoME, Last Writings - Note 17 Thanks Conrad. I've been rereading MR (HoME X) and had just got to the bit about rebirth as a child. I was sure that wasn't the last word, but didn't realize it was only 150 pages or so further on. :-) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> <1107726273_4355@exe-east.n> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 01:56:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.229.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1107827811 24.160.229.217 (Mon, 07 Feb 2005 19:56:51 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 19:56:51 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168704 Raven wrote: > Imagine remembering being potty-trained not only once, but twice. > And having two sets of parents. The latter is of course easily > achieved by us Men, in this age of frequent divorce and remarriage. > :-) > > *Amer. Worse yet, imagine having to go through *High School* twice! Just imagine the neuroses that would ensue as you started to remember your previous life. OMYGOD! I'm not supposed to be a jock, I'm a hippie/muscician/pothead! -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:30:31 +0100 Lines: 28 Message-ID: <36vdnoF56ovo9U1@individual.net> References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> <1107726273_4355@exe-east.n> X-Trace: individual.net Y+vThofCXvFshGpeyDNkyAcjHgHaGsJJQ50ETgQVq589ZRwZRV X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:168823 In message <1107726273_4355@exe-east.n>, Ancalagon The Black enriched us with: > > Interesting. I wonder what would happen to the memories of an Elf > reunited with a full-grown body (for example Glorfindel and Finrod), > as opposed to being reborn as a child? Would they remain intact, or > would the reborn Elf have to learn things all over again? IIRC the Elf reborn as a child would regain their memories of their prior life as some later point in their new life -- I suppose, without recalling if I've read that somewhere -- that an Elf reincarnated in rebuilt (i.e. adult) body would have full access to all memories (except, perhaps, for their death and time in the Halls of Mandos) immediately upon their reincarnation. -- Troels Forchhammer Valid e-mail is t.forch(a)email.dk A Thaum is the basic unit of magical strength. It has been universally established as the amount of magic needed to create one small white pigeon or three normal sized billiard balls. - (Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic) ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41ebe5d8.10783946@news.compuserve.com> <3570kuF4ifjedU1@individual.net> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:39:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.125.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1108921192 82.43.125.102 (Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:39:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:39:52 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:169408 Troels Forchhammer wrote: [Melian's departure after Thingol's death] > It doesn't seem that she did 'die' in the sense of the incarnate (or > as did Sauron), though I'm not sure how she's supposed to have reached > Valinor with a hröa. In the context of the present discussions, I > would venture that Thingol's death severed the bond between her fëa > and hröa (or at least significantly weakened it) so that she could > finally 'disarray' herself of the hröa and return to Valinor as a > disembodied fëa... My opinion is that this is supported by the text. But I've been told several times that this chapter of 'The Silmarillion' is a patchwork of JRRT, CJRT and GGK: "Upon Doriath a heavy change had fallen. Melian sat long in silence beside Thingol the King [...] Melian was of the divine race of the Valar, and she was a Maia of great power and wisdom; but for love of Elwe Singollo she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Iluvatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda. In that form she bore to him Luthien Tinuviel; and in that form she gained a power over the substance of Arda, and by the Girdle of Melian was Doriath defended through long ages from the evils without. But now Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian. Thus it came to pass that her power was withdrawn in that time from the forests of Neldoreth and Region, and Esgalduin the enchanted river spoke with a different voice, and Doriath lay open to its enemies." (Of the Ruin of Doriath) The key passage to me, seems to be this: "...and with his death a change came also upon Melian." Though it is not clear to me whether this change is physically forced on Melian (as a consequence of all this hroa and fea stuff that's been discussed in this thread), or whether the change is mentally forced on her (she is so overwhelmed by grief), or a combination of both. The later bit about 'musing on her sorrows' in Lorien (in Aman) seems to support the later case, though the actual Girdle seems to depend more significantly on whether she had the form of an elf. It seems as if she could not maintain the Girdle unless she had the form of an elf ("in that form she gained a power over the substance of Arda"), and she no longer had the motivation to maintain the form of an elf now that Thingol was dead. Of course, there is also the bit that I snipped: "...she knew that her parting from Thingol was the forerunner of a greater parting, and that the doom of Doriath was drawing nigh." This might imply that contributing to the decision/imperative of Melian to leave was the conscious wisdom and knowledge of a Maia. She knew her place in the scheme of things, and knew better than to wait and be steamrollered by a mighty Doom. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> <41f19621_5@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 43 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:49:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.125.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1108921783 82.43.125.102 (Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:49:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:49:43 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!proxad.net!194.117.148.138.MISMATCH!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:169409 Ancalagon The Black wrote: > OTOH, Sauron we know could easily construct and deconstruct forms to > suit his needs, and could even afford to leave bodies behind. > Witness the battle with Huan, where he changed from a wolf to a snake > to a "monster" (what was that anyway, and why didn't he simply > deconstruct it?) and then left that (apparently still constructed) > body behind, before turning into a bat resembling Thuringwethil, and > flying off into Taur-nu-Fuin. I suspect that this was because he didn't have a Ring at this point. The implication is that Sauron will not be able to reform a body unless Morgoth does it for him: "[Luthien] said that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: 'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower.'" (Of Beren and Luthien) This is not my idea, but something I read in these newsgroups. I vaguely remember extending the speculation to include the idea that Sauron's motivation for constructing his Ring was to avoid such humilation ever happening again. > Sauron then lost his body in the destruction of Numenor, and again in > the battle with Elendil and Gil-Galad, yet after a while still had > enough power to construct a new body, and became known as the > Necromancer. > > Question: How come there was no Girdle of Sauron? It sounds like > just the sort of thing he would do, yet he never did... His 'girdle' was the Ruling Ring. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41eaa2fd_2@127.0.0.1> <41ee9851_4@127.0.0.1> <41f02fd9_2@127.0.0.1> <41f19621_5@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 12 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:53:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.125.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1108922012 82.43.125.102 (Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:53:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:53:32 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!proxad.net!194.117.148.138.MISMATCH!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:169411 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > Ancalagon The Black wrote: >> Question: How come there was no Girdle of Sauron? It sounds like >> just the sort of thing he would do, yet he never did... > > His 'girdle' was the Ruling Ring. PS. He was a late learner. Melian was top of the class in girdle-making. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41ebe5d8.10783946@news.compuserve.com> <3570kuF4ifjedU1@individual.net> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <3c4Sd.19396$8B3.3081@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:57:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.125.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1108922239 82.43.125.102 (Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:57:19 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:57:19 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:169412 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > Troels Forchhammer wrote: > > [Melian's departure after Thingol's death] > >> It doesn't seem that she did 'die' in the sense of the incarnate (or >> as did Sauron), though I'm not sure how she's supposed to have >> reached Valinor with a hröa. In the context of the present >> discussions, I would venture that Thingol's death severed the bond >> between her fëa and hröa (or at least significantly weakened it) so >> that she could finally 'disarray' herself of the hröa and return to >> Valinor as a disembodied fëa... > > My opinion is that this is supported by the text. But I've been told > several times that this chapter of 'The Silmarillion' is a patchwork > of JRRT, CJRT and GGK: > > "Upon Doriath a heavy change had fallen. Melian sat long in silence > beside Thingol the King [...] Melian was of the divine race of the > Valar, and she was a Maia of great power and wisdom; but for love of > Elwe Singollo she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of > Iluvatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels > of the flesh of Arda. In that form she bore to him Luthien Tinuviel; > and in that form she gained a power over the substance of Arda, and > by the Girdle of Melian was Doriath defended through long ages from > the evils without. But now Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had > passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also > upon Melian. Thus it came to pass that her power was withdrawn in > that time from the forests of Neldoreth and Region, and Esgalduin the > enchanted river spoke with a different voice, and Doriath lay open to > its enemies." (Of the Ruin of Doriath) > > The key passage to me, seems to be this: > > "...and with his death a change came also upon Melian." > > Though it is not clear to me whether this change is physically forced > on Melian (as a consequence of all this hroa and fea stuff that's been > discussed in this thread), or whether the change is mentally forced on > her (she is so overwhelmed by grief), or a combination of both. The > later bit about 'musing on her sorrows' in Lorien (in Aman) seems to > support the later case, though the actual Girdle seems to depend more > significantly on whether she had the form of an elf. It seems as if > she could not maintain the Girdle unless she had the form of an elf > ("in that form she gained a power over the substance of Arda"), and > she no longer had the motivation to maintain the form of an elf now > that Thingol was dead. > > Of course, there is also the bit that I snipped: > > "...she knew that her parting from Thingol was the forerunner of a > greater parting, and that the doom of Doriath was drawing nigh." > > This might imply that contributing to the decision/imperative of > Melian to leave was the conscious wisdom and knowledge of a Maia. She > knew her place in the scheme of things, and knew better than to wait > and be steamrollered by a mighty Doom. As in: "And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm." (Melian's words to Thingol when he set a Silmaril as the price for Beren to win the hand of their daughter Luthien) ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41d72d3e_3@127.0.0.1> <33vvr0F45p0l9U1@individual.net> <8NmDd.172233$ye4.101341@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> <62sDd.34153$g4.635230@news2.nokia.com> <41ebe5d8.10783946@news.compuserve.com> <3570kuF4ifjedU1@individual.net> Subject: Re: Hroa versus "Projected Fea" Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 23:15:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.229.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1108941327 24.160.229.217 (Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:15:27 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:15:27 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!news1.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:169431 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: The > later bit about 'musing on her sorrows' in Lorien (in Aman) seems to > support the later case, though the actual Girdle seems to depend more > significantly on whether she had the form of an elf. It seems as if > she could not maintain the Girdle unless she had the form of an elf > ("in that form she gained a power over the substance of Arda"), and > she no longer had the motivation to maintain the form of an elf now > that Thingol was dead. I hadn't noted that bit of information before. I had often pondered the Girdle, and thought that Melian must indeed be mighty among the Maia to achieve this feat. The "gaining power over the substance of Arda" through becoming incarnate answers a lot of questions. Morgoth used his physical form in much the same way. "Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the /hroa/, the 'flesh' or physical matter, of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it..." MR 399 Of course her purpose in this was vastly different than Morgoth's. Interesting contrast with the Istari who were incarnated in order to *diminish* their native powers. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--