From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:45:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1103755504 82.43.126.28 (Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:45:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:45:04 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.zanker.org!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166111 I was talking to someone the other day, and this question came up: Could Gollum see Frodo when Frodo was wearing the Ring at the Sammath Naur? I was somewhat surprised, never having considered the possibility, but I couldn't definitely refute the idea. I don't think Gollum could see Frodo, but could he maybe sense where the Ring was? Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 01:38:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.230.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1103765911 24.160.230.42 (Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:38:31 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:38:31 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!router2.news.adelphia.net!router1.news.adelphia.net!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-server.columbus.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166130 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > I was talking to someone the other day, and this question came up: > > Could Gollum see Frodo when Frodo was wearing the Ring at the Sammath > Naur? > > I was somewhat surprised, never having considered the possibility, > but I couldn't definitely refute the idea. I don't think Gollum could > see Frodo, but could he maybe sense where the Ring was? I never got the impression that he did. He knew where Frodo was standing when he claimed the Ring and put it on. H e just went for that point. To see Frodo would imply that Gollum was in a partial spirit-world state without the benefit of wearing the Ring. For this to happen, he would have to have been "wraithified" by the Ring , an effect he was resistant to. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### Reply-To: "teepee" From: "teepee" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 66 Organization: home X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 NNTP-Posting-Host: $$5lpnkdexhbzw33v.x-privat.org Message-ID: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> Date: 23 Dec 2004 02:41:43 +0100 X-Authenticated-User: $$x4ysbmi577hxkoyemw X-Complaints-To: abuse@x-privat.org Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out.tin.it!news-in.tin.it!x-privat.org!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166129 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote > Could Gollum see Frodo when Frodo was wearing the Ring at the Sammath > Naur? > > I was somewhat surprised, never having considered the possibility, but I > couldn't definitely refute the idea. I don't think Gollum could see > Frodo, but could he maybe sense where the Ring was? Well he couldn't see Bilbo with the ring on, and that was when he was more attuned to it. OTOH the ring probably wanted him to stop Frodo at that point. [MOVIE ASIDE] I was watching the EE of ROTK again and one thing I never noticed before was how Gollum held the ring out of the lava even as he was consumed by it, keeping it safe as long as possible. I think we're meant to understand that the ring was trying to get Frodo to jump in and rescue it, and that's what the 'cliffhanger' scene was about - Frodo finally rejecting the power of the ring in favour of life. Now I understand what the writers were trying to achieve a little better, I'm even more appalled by it. Did they understand nothing? Frodo could no more resist the ring than Gollum could. That was the whole point. -- ###### From: JXStern Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Message-ID: References: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 01:49:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.62.126.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: trnddc02 1103766556 4.62.126.36 (Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:49:16 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:49:16 EST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trnddc02.POSTED!4fcf30b0!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166133 On 23 Dec 2004 02:41:43 +0100, "teepee" wrote: >[MOVIE ASIDE] > >I was watching the EE of ROTK again and one thing I never noticed before was >how Gollum held the ring out of the lava even as he was consumed by it, >keeping it safe as long as possible. I think we're meant to understand that >the ring was trying to get Frodo to jump in and rescue it, and that's what >the 'cliffhanger' scene was about - Frodo finally rejecting the power of the >ring in favour of life. > >Now I understand what the writers were trying to achieve a little better, >I'm even more appalled by it. Did they understand nothing? Frodo could no >more resist the ring than Gollum could. That was the whole point. The director's comments only talk about trying to balance the dramatic tensions or somesuch, they don't mention such metaphysical considerations. They say they filmed the scene three ways - (1) straight book, (2) as in the movie, and (3) Frodo pushing Gollum in without falling himself. I'd like (4) Frodo produces a shotgun, blows off Gollum's hand, ring falls onto the lava, Gollum sues for damages. J. ###### Message-ID: <41CA54B2.DAC3ED46@yahoo-dot.ca> From: Odysseus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,fr-CA,fr,fr-FR,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 05:15:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.166.231.142 X-Trace: edtnps91 1103778920 198.166.231.142 (Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:15:20 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:15:20 MST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.utanet.at!news.glorb.com!newsfeed2.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!edtnps91.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166153 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > > I was talking to someone the other day, and this question came up: > > Could Gollum see Frodo when Frodo was wearing the Ring at the Sammath > Naur? > > I was somewhat surprised, never having considered the possibility, but I > couldn't definitely refute the idea. I don't think Gollum could see > Frodo, but could he maybe sense where the Ring was? > I don't think such an assumption is necessary. It's my impression that Frodo hadn't much chance to move after putting on the Ring, and anyway he seems to have been in something of a trance. So I've always pictured Gollum heading for where Frodo had last been visible and, having made contact, finding the Ring by touch as they grappled. -- Odysseus ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:29:24 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166168 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Could Gollum see Frodo when Frodo was wearing the Ring at the Sammath >Naur? I think not. We know that Bilbo was invisible to Gollum while wearing the Ring, just as Bilbo was invisible to hobbits while wearing the Ring. We know that in the Sammath Naur Frodo-with-Ring was invisible to Sam; therefor he was invisible to Gollum as well. Gollum located Frodo's Ring finger by feel. >I was somewhat surprised, never having considered the possibility, but I >couldn't definitely refute the idea. I don't think Gollum could see >Frodo, but could he maybe sense where the Ring was? Maybe, but he didn't need to. He saw Frodo put it on, and attacked before Frodo had time to move. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: "Jette Goldie" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:52:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.41.77.252 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1103813561 82.41.77.252 (Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:52:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:52:41 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166180 "Bill O'Meally" wrote in message news:rkpyd.144973$ye4.42971@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com... > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > > I was talking to someone the other day, and this question came up: > > > > Could Gollum see Frodo when Frodo was wearing the Ring at the Sammath > > Naur? > > > > I was somewhat surprised, never having considered the possibility, > > but I couldn't definitely refute the idea. I don't think Gollum could > > see Frodo, but could he maybe sense where the Ring was? > > I never got the impression that he did. He knew where Frodo was standing > when he claimed the Ring and put it on. H e just went for that point. To > see Frodo would imply that Gollum was in a partial spirit-world state > without the benefit of wearing the Ring. For this to happen, he would > have to have been "wraithified" by the Ring , an effect he was resistant > to. We have reason to believe that Gollum's sense of smell is particularly accute, for a hobbit. He sniffed Frodo out? -- Jette Goldie jette@blueyonder.co.uk Apache and Dakota http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/kitties.html ###### From: "Gregg Cattanach" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.44.85.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr17.news.prodigy.com 1103815599 ST000 12.44.85.20 (Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:26:39 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:26:39 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: Q[R_PJSCOXWURVX[ZJKX_VX@]JTFQLTLFXVH_IQDJ@_@FN\CDVW[AKK[J\]^HVKHG^EWZHBLO^[\NH_AZFWGN^\DHNVMX_DHHX[FSQKBOTS@@BP^]C@RHS_AGDDC[AJM_T[GZNRNZAY]GNCPBDYKOLK^_CZFWPGHZIXW@C[AFKBBQS@E@DAZ]VDFUNTQQ]FN Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:26:39 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newsswing.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr17.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!9c9da953!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166185 teepee wrote: > I was watching the EE of ROTK again and one thing I never noticed > before was how Gollum held the ring out of the lava even as he was > consumed by it, keeping it safe as long as possible. I think we're > meant to understand that the ring was trying to get Frodo to jump in > and rescue it, and that's what the 'cliffhanger' scene was about - > Frodo finally rejecting the power of the ring in favour of life. No, you're trying too hard. Frodo knew the Ring was gone at that point, there wasn't anything left to 'reject'. He wasn't going to let go so he could 'get' the Ring. He was trying to survive. Gollum holding the Ring aloft was just a good visual. Another aside: Would a person that fell into lava sink in like that or would he 'float' on top of it and be roasted alive? It is, after all, molten rock and I would think it would be really dense. > > Now I understand what the writers were trying to achieve a little > better, I'm even more appalled by it. Did they understand nothing? > Frodo could no more resist the ring than Gollum could. That was the > whole point. The whole point of Frodo attacking Gollum after Gollum got the ring WAS that Frodo couldn't resist the Ring. He didn't want Gollum to die, he just wanted the Ring back. Then they both fell during the struggle. -- Gregg C. ###### From: "Gregg Cattanach" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41CA54B2.DAC3ED46@yahoo-dot.ca> Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Message-ID: <0uByd.2424$Y8.704@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.44.85.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr17.news.prodigy.com 1103815676 ST000 12.44.85.20 (Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:27:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:27:56 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: Q[R_PJONRZVQB\X[ORHF_WTAUKXBABXMKHUTNBPLAH[\BQUBLNTC@AWZWDXZXQ[K\FFSKCVM@F_N_DOBWVWG__LG@VVOIPLIGX\\BU_B@\P\PFX\B[APHTWAHDCKJF^NHD[YJAZMCY_CWG[SX\Y]^KC\HSZRWSWKGAY_PC[BQ[BXAS\F\\@DMTLFZFUE@\VL Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:27:56 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!skynet.be!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr17.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!9c9da953!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166186 Odysseus wrote: > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >> >> I was talking to someone the other day, and this question came up: >> >> Could Gollum see Frodo when Frodo was wearing the Ring at the Sammath >> Naur? >> >> I was somewhat surprised, never having considered the possibility, >> but I couldn't definitely refute the idea. I don't think Gollum >> could see Frodo, but could he maybe sense where the Ring was? >> [Movie] Gollum saw Frodo's footprints on the dirt and followed them. -- Gregg C. ###### Lines: 11 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comjunk.net (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 23 Dec 2004 16:45:31 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Message-ID: <20041223114531.06251.00001355@mb-m27.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166197 >The director's comments only talk about trying to balance the dramatic >tensions or somesuch, they don't mention such metaphysical >considerations. They say they filmed the scene three ways - (1) >straight book, (2) as in the movie, and (3) Frodo pushing Gollum in >without falling himself. I'd like (4) Frodo produces a shotgun, blows >off Gollum's hand, ring falls onto the lava, Gollum sues for damages. You forgot 5: Frodo pushes Gollum into the lava. Gollumis rescued by a Sith Lord and encased in a black life suit and trained in the ways of the force. Russ ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 53 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:51:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1103838663 82.43.126.28 (Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:51:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:51:03 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166227 Stan Brown wrote: > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> Could Gollum see Frodo when Frodo was wearing the Ring >> at the Sammath Naur? > > I think not. We know that Bilbo was invisible to Gollum while wearing > the Ring, That should be conclusive: "He could not see the hobbit, but now he was on the alert, and he had other senses that the darkness had sharpened: hearing and smell." (Riddles in the Dark, The Hobbit) This sensitivity of Gollum is demonstrated a few sentences later as Bilbo leaps over Gollum: "Gollum threw himself backwards, and grabbed as the hobbit flew over him, but too late: his hands snapped on thin air..." (Riddles in the Dark, The Hobbit) But just to play devil's advocate... > Gollum located Frodo's Ring finger by feel. I don't read this in the book: "Suddenly Sam saw Gollum's long hands draw upwards to his mouth; his white fangs gleamed, and then snapped as they bit." That doesn't imply that Gollum found Frodo's hand by feel. But I agree that this explanation makes most sense. >> I was somewhat surprised, never having considered the possibility, >> but I couldn't definitely refute the idea. I don't think Gollum >> could see Frodo, but could he maybe sense where the Ring was? > > Maybe, but he didn't need to. He saw Frodo put it on, and attacked > before Frodo had time to move. Yes. Re-reading the passage, I see that Sam and Frodo are quite close to each other in that passageway inside Mount Doom, with the Crack of Doom running across the passageway. Not at all like in the movie, though similarly (pier or corridor), there is nowhere for Frodo to escape to. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:53:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1103838819 82.43.126.28 (Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:53:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:53:39 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166228 Gregg Cattanach wrote: > Another aside: Would a person that fell into lava sink in like that > or would he 'float' on top of it and be roasted alive? It is, after > all, molten rock and I would think it would be really dense. I would say no sinking, and roasting, or more likely bursting into flames (depends on the water content of the object burning). People can get covered in lava, but it tends to be the lava rolling over them, not them going into the lava. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:19:00 -0800 Organization: None to Speak Of Message-ID: References: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166232 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:26:39 GMT, "Gregg Cattanach" wrote: > >Another aside: Would a person that fell into lava sink in like that or >would he 'float' on top of it and be roasted alive? It is, after all, >molten rock and I would think it would be really dense. > Well.... He would float, like a french fry in hot fat, but he would turn crispy black almost immediately. There would also be a loud frying noise and much water would be given off, although at the temperatures involved, the water would not be visible (what you normally see is partially condensed water vapor, not true steam.). OTOH, the gold ring would sink like a rock into the molten rock because gold is so dense. So much for the real-world physics of movie drama.... (Maybe we couldn't hear the frying noise over the sound track...) the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Oyster--n., a person who sprinkles his conversation with Yiddish expressions. ###### Reply-To: "Raven" From: "Raven" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:11:19 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.77 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1103847189 195.82.196.77 (Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:13:09 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:13:09 CET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166237 "Gregg Cattanach" skrev i en meddelelse news:PsByd.2423$Y8.1141@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com... > Another aside: Would a person that fell into lava sink in like that or > would he 'float' on top of it and be roasted alive? It is, after all, > molten rock and I would think it would be really dense. The person would float - briefly, before being consumed by the fire. The Ring would *not* float and melt on the surface of the lava. Rock has a specific density of between 2 and 3. A human (or hobbit) has a specific density of about or somewhat less than 1, when the air in the lungs is included - as can be attested by any person who has tried to swim. When I exhale I sink in freshwater but still float in salt water, indicating that with lungs as empty as I can get them my specific density is somewhat more than 1. I expect that if I fell into lava I would be somewhat less than half submerged while my flesh endured. Of course if I fell into the lava from a height I would probably become submerged for a moment like a cork falling into water - and my body perhaps consumed before it buoyed back to the surface, decomposed though not burned (oxidized) until the char became re-exposed to the atmospheric air. Perhaps someone should go to Hawaii (whose volcanoes have a rather runny lava) and dump a dead pig into some and see precisely what happens. One thing I might expect is a steam explosion, with the water of the body evaporating quite quickly. Gold has 19.3 and would sink like a rock in water, if the lava surface were truly molten. It might stay on top if the surface of the lava were solidified, though still both somewhat soft as well as glowing. Harvan. ###### Message-ID: <41CB767F.E48297FE@yahoo-dot.ca> From: Odysseus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,fr-CA,fr,fr-FR,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur References: <41CA54B2.DAC3ED46@yahoo-dot.ca> <0uByd.2424$Y8.704@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:51:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.166.231.142 X-Trace: edtnps89 1103853104 198.166.231.142 (Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:51:44 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:51:44 MST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newsfeed2.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!edtnps89.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166241 Gregg Cattanach wrote: > > Odysseus wrote: > > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > >> > >> I was talking to someone the other day, and this question came up: > >> > >> Could Gollum see Frodo when Frodo was wearing the Ring at the Sammath > >> Naur? > >> > >> I was somewhat surprised, never having considered the possibility, > >> but I couldn't definitely refute the idea. I don't think Gollum > >> could see Frodo, but could he maybe sense where the Ring was? > >> > > [Movie] Gollum saw Frodo's footprints on the dirt and followed them. > I didn't write any of that. Please watch your attributions when snipping. -- Odysseus ###### From: "Zimri" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: <1NOyd.2621$F67.2203@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 70.240.232.41 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr12.news.prodigy.com 1103870141 ST000 70.240.232.41 (Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:35:41 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:35:41 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: FKPO@SNF\JUWSR\YBBCBNWX@RJ_XPDLMN@GZ_GYO^RR@ETUCCNSKQFCY@TXDX_WHSVB]ZEJLSNY\^J[CUVSA_QLFC^RQHUPH[P[NRWCCMLSNPOD_ESALHUK@TDFUZHBLJ\XGKL^NXA\EVHSP[D_C^B_^JCX^W]CHBAX]POG@SSAZQ\LE[DCNMUPG_VSC@VJM Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:35:41 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!atl-c02.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!newsswing.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr12.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!1dccac64!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166247 "teepee" > I was watching the EE of ROTK again and one thing I never noticed before was > how Gollum held the ring out of the lava even as he was consumed by it, > keeping it safe as long as possible. I think we're meant to understand > that > the ring was trying to get Frodo to jump in and rescue it, and that's what > the 'cliffhanger' scene was about - Frodo finally rejecting the power of > the > ring in favour of life. > > Now I understand what the writers were trying to achieve a little better, > I'm even more appalled by it. Did they understand nothing? Frodo could no > more resist the ring than Gollum could. That was the whole point. I take it to be the Ring's power over Gollum, and its drive for self-preservation at Gollum's expense. It's a coda to its betrayals of Isildur and Gollum in the FotR prologue. Of all the scenes which Boyens and Jackson changed, you complain about this? -- zimriel sbc dot at global net . http://pages.sbcglobal.net/zimriel/ *new improved shorter .sig* ###### From: "Shanahan" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 02:14:35 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-423.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166252 teepee declared: > [MOVIE ASIDE] > > I was watching the EE of ROTK again and one thing I never noticed > before was how Gollum held the ring out of the lava even as he > was consumed by it, keeping it safe as long as possible. I think > we're meant to understand that the ring was trying to get Frodo > to jump in and rescue it, I think we're meant to understand that Gollum is more invested in saving the Ring than himself, to the point where he doesn't even notice he's dying. > and that's what the 'cliffhanger' scene > was about - Frodo finally rejecting the power of the ring in > favour of life. Yup. > Now I understand what the writers were trying to achieve a little > better, I'm even more appalled by it. Did they understand > nothing? Frodo could no more resist the ring than Gollum could. > That was the whole point. Perhaps they were thinking that the connection between Ring and Frodo was broken when Gollum bit it off his finger. Gollum, then, at this point, is the one under the Ring's power, and Frodo is coming back from its enslavement, and is saved by Sam's love. Not so twisted. Ciaran S. -- It's a grand life, if you don't tire. -gaelic proverb ###### From: Troels Forchhammer Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Date: 24 Dec 2004 12:47:15 GMT Organization: Hogwarts Library Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <41CA54B2.DAC3ED46@yahoo-dot.ca> <0uByd.2424$Y8.704@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com> <41CB767F.E48297FE@yahoo-dot.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net 2kkO3K7QD1HCe7Hb4taYGgC+rgK14Dnf8nEcG4i8n6QWiBvXPt User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 X-Face: "Rt@v9]z5%&{}CPvx9[[dd!0V;NzH~|$@#;V"K4i{YbxWjfz]mC2l58XKtr\D58h*!j\LqJJ{04fO\KD2NzCYZXs~$2J(yKvlS Odysseus enriched us with: > Gregg Cattanach wrote: >> >> Odysseus wrote: >>> >>> Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >>>> >>>> I was talking to someone the other day, and this question came >>>> up: [...] >> >> [Movie] Gollum saw Frodo's footprints on the dirt and followed >> them. > > I didn't write any of that. Please watch your attributions when > snipping. Arguably you put in the "Christopher Kreuzer wrote:" part and were correctly attributed for that ;-) (it was the only text with a single quote character ">", which would be the level referring to you). It's one of the problems I've often had -- if I want to respond to a message that hasn't appeared on my server (or has already expired) and I do so by responding to a response to the original message, what then to do with the attributions? I normally make some excuse for riding my own reply pig-a-back on theirs, and then try my best to make at least an inane comment to their text, but it /is/ an awkward situation at best. -- Troels Forchhammer Valid mail is ++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start. - (Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times) ###### From: "L. Colin Wilson" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:38:45 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Nane Avaw! Lines: 17 Message-ID: <41CC1CC5.5020606@yahoo.co.uk> References: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-152-66-169.range81-152.btcentralplus.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: hercules.btinternet.com 1103895525 28808 81.152.66.169 (24 Dec 2004 13:38:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:38:45 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!news-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166261 Gregg Cattanach wrote: > Another aside: Would a person that fell into lava sink in like that or > would he 'float' on top of it and be roasted alive? It is, after all, > molten rock and I would think it would be really dense. The person would float, but I've my doubts about "roasted alive". As GC says, lava is dense: someone who fell on it from that height probably would be killed instantly by the impact. In the circumstances, I'd say it's the lesser of two evils. Either way (as someone else pointed out) there would be smoke and sizzling, something like a barbecue. I thought the scene in the film was very unrealistic, and unsatisfactory. It would have been better if they'd kept with the depiction in the book, and left to the imagination the situation at the bottom of the chasm. Colin Wilson. ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Date: 24 Dec 2004 14:25:57 GMT Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> <41CC1CC5.5020606@yahoo.co.uk> X-Trace: individual.net t928SIWBC5iOhJjFQIn/Lwe8zv4MQJFjCnWBeLlSt4AKKL2zgz User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166266 "L. Colin Wilson" wrote in news:41CC1CC5.5020606@yahoo.co.uk: > Gregg Cattanach wrote: > >> Another aside: Would a person that fell into lava sink in like >> that or would he 'float' on top of it and be roasted alive? It >> is, after all, molten rock and I would think it would be really >> dense. > > The person would float, but I've my doubts about "roasted alive". > As GC says, lava is dense: someone who fell on it from that height > probably would be killed instantly by the impact. In the > circumstances, I'd say it's the lesser of two evils. > > Either way (as someone else pointed out) there would be smoke and > sizzling, something like a barbecue. I thought the scene in the > film was very unrealistic, and unsatisfactory. It would have been > better if they'd kept with the depiction in the book, and left to > the imagination the situation at the bottom of the chasm. Slightly unsatisfactory for most viewers. Not only is the main villain unseen, but the destruction of one of the main protagonists would also be unseen. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:14:36 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <41CA54B2.DAC3ED46@yahoo-dot.ca> <0uByd.2424$Y8.704@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com> <41CB767F.E48297FE@yahoo-dot.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166269 "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >It's one of the problems I've often had -- if I want to respond to a >message that hasn't appeared on my server (or has already expired) and >I do so by responding to a response to the original message, what then >to do with the attributions? Why do you need to do anything? Sure, everything's a level deeper than it would be if you replied to the original, but still all the attributions are right. And if the person you're quoting has actually mangled the original, then it's clear in the archives where in the thread the alteration happened. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:12:04 -0600 From: R. Dan Henry Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:12:10 -0800 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.25.52.104 X-Trace: sv3-8N8EMXpwwHxebtrOh248vU3YSokXBmDMf/TbNu+4uJG5M3XbedHYlO1YHfDGTMt3dFR/gpQYexojlz/!CIFJ36mRO0rBTx6uRGOHGToZ9NNCC791LUL6r33aZYcryz0JQNQatiVJ9leOa8VQf/FbMaOkV4GJ!5AayUNVZL57bNAjXUc1j4Sk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.inreach.com!news.inreach.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166400 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:51:03 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote: >Stan Brown wrote: >> Gollum located Frodo's Ring finger by feel. > >I don't read this in the book: > >"Suddenly Sam saw Gollum's long hands draw upwards to his mouth; his >white fangs gleamed, and then snapped as they bit." > >That doesn't imply that Gollum found Frodo's hand by feel. But I agree >that this explanation makes most sense. He's clearly pulling Frodo's hand to his mouth with his own hands here. I'd say that's using the sense of touch. R. Dan Henry danhenry@inreach.com ###### Reply-To: "teepee" From: "teepee" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 59 Organization: home X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 NNTP-Posting-Host: $$5lpnkdexhbzw33v.x-privat.org Message-ID: <41d0ba08@x-privat.org> Date: 28 Dec 2004 02:42:32 +0100 X-Authenticated-User: $$x4ysbmi577hxkoyemw X-Complaints-To: abuse@x-privat.org Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out.tin.it!news-in.tin.it!x-privat.org!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166403 "Gregg Cattanach" wrote > teepee wrote: > > I was watching the EE of ROTK again and one thing I never noticed > > before was how Gollum held the ring out of the lava even as he was > > consumed by it, keeping it safe as long as possible. I think we're > > meant to understand that the ring was trying to get Frodo to jump in > > and rescue it, and that's what the 'cliffhanger' scene was about - > > Frodo finally rejecting the power of the ring in favour of life. > > No, you're trying too hard. Frodo knew the Ring was gone at that point, > there wasn't anything left to 'reject'. He wasn't going to let go so he > could 'get' the Ring. He was trying to survive. Gollum holding the Ring > aloft was just a good visual. Well I stand by my analysis on this, but may I point out the ring wasn't gone. It was still floating on the lava. Rewatch the scene and you'll see what I mean. -- ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:00:57 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> <41d0ba08@x-privat.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.space.net!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166447 "teepee" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: [3 lines of text and a couple of screenfuls of blank lines] This seems to be a frequent occurrence with your articles? Could you check your newsreader settings and/or not lean on the Enter key at the end of your article, please? :-) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: teepee Reply-To: noemail@hotmail.com User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur References: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> <41d0ba08@x-privat.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: $$5lpnkdexhbzw33v.x-privat.org Message-ID: <41d20c6a@x-privat.org> Date: 29 Dec 2004 02:46:18 +0100 Organization: X-Privat NNTP Server - http://www.x-privat.org Lines: 48 X-Authenticated-User: $$x4ysbmi577hxkoyemw X-Complaints-To: abuse@x-privat.org Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!news-out.tin.it!news-in.tin.it!x-privat.org!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166454 Stan Brown wrote: > "teepee" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > [3 lines of text and a couple of screenfuls of blank lines] > This seems to be a frequent occurrence with your articles? Could you > check your newsreader settings and/or not lean on the Enter key at > the end of your article, please? :-) > It's deliberate. My (free) news server sometimes inserts adverts at the end of my posts, so I put in a few blank lines of signature so people don't have to look at them. I'm sorry if it bothers you though. -- ###### From: teepee Reply-To: noemail@hotmail.com User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur References: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> <41d0ba08@x-privat.org> <41d20c6a@x-privat.org> In-Reply-To: <41d20c6a@x-privat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: $$5lpnkdexhbzw33v.x-privat.org Message-ID: <41d20d7b$1@x-privat.org> Date: 29 Dec 2004 02:50:51 +0100 Organization: X-Privat NNTP Server - http://www.x-privat.org Lines: 8 X-Authenticated-User: $$x4ysbmi577hxkoyemw X-Complaints-To: abuse@x-privat.org Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out.tin.it!news-in.tin.it!x-privat.org!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166455 teepee wrote: > It's deliberate. My (free) news server sometimes inserts adverts at > the end of my posts, so I put in a few blank lines of signature so > people don't have to look at them. Having said which I notice it doesn't seem to have happened for a while, so maybe they're stopped doing it. I shall switch it off. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:09:57 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> <41d0ba08@x-privat.org> <41d20c6a@x-privat.org> <41d20d7b$1@x-privat.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166471 "teepee" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >teepee wrote: > >> It's deliberate. My (free) news server sometimes inserts adverts at the >> end of my posts, so I put in a few blank lines of signature so people >> don't have to look at them. > >Having said which I notice it doesn't seem to have happened for a while, >so maybe they're stopped doing it. I shall switch it off. Thank you. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41CA54B2.DAC3ED46@yahoo-dot.ca> <0uByd.2424$Y8.704@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com> <41CB767F.E48297FE@yahoo-dot.ca> Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:46:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1104363996 82.43.126.28 (Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:46:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:46:36 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166517 Stan Brown wrote: > "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> It's one of the problems I've often had -- if I want to respond to a >> message that hasn't appeared on my server (or has already expired) >> and I do so by responding to a response to the original message, >> what then to do with the attributions? > > Why do you need to do anything? Sure, everything's a level deeper > than it would be if you replied to the original, but still all the > attributions are right. And if the person you're quoting has actually > mangled the original, then it's clear in the archives where in the > thread the alteration happened. Nah. Ruthlessly snip everything except what you are replying to. If you snip right and write clearly, everything should be OK... :-) ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 31 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:50:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1104364245 82.43.126.28 (Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:50:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:50:45 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166518 R. Dan Henry wrote: > On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:51:03 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" > wrote: >> "Suddenly Sam saw Gollum's long hands draw upwards to his >> mouth; his white fangs gleamed, and then snapped as they bit." >> >> That doesn't imply that Gollum found Frodo's hand by feel. But I >> agree that this explanation makes most sense. > > He's clearly pulling Frodo's hand to his mouth with his own hands > here. I'd say that's using the sense of touch. Pulling with his hands is using his muscles to pull the hand. It doesn't say how he located ("found") the hand. When you see food and pick it up and pull it to your mouth with your hands, that is not using touch, it is using sight to locate the food. [Note that I don't think Gollum could see Frodo - I am just pointing out that this passage does not say that Gollum used touch to find Frodo's hand. For that I would require a word like "groped" describing Gollum's actions] Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41ca2257@x-privat.org> <41d0ba08@x-privat.org> Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 31 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:53:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1104364409 82.43.126.28 (Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:53:29 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:53:29 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166519 teepee wrote: > "Gregg Cattanach" wrote > >> teepee wrote: >>> I was watching the EE of ROTK again and one thing I never noticed >>> before was how Gollum held the ring out of the lava even as he was >>> consumed by it, keeping it safe as long as possible. I think we're >>> meant to understand that the ring was trying to get Frodo to jump in >>> and rescue it, and that's what the 'cliffhanger' scene was about - >>> Frodo finally rejecting the power of the ring in favour of life. >> >> No, you're trying too hard. Frodo knew the Ring was gone at that >> point, there wasn't anything left to 'reject'. He wasn't going to >> let go so he could 'get' the Ring. He was trying to survive. >> Gollum holding the Ring aloft was just a good visual. > > Well I stand by my analysis on this, but may I point out the ring > wasn't gone. It was still floating on the lava. Rewatch the scene and > you'll see what I mean. I agree with you here. I think this is the 'film' interpretation, and I finally agreed that this is what was being shown (regardless of whether it is true to the spirit of Tolkien's book) when I saw that the Ring did not dissolve until Frodo grabbed Sam's hand and 'rejected' the Ring. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41CA54B2.DAC3ED46@yahoo-dot.ca> <0uByd.2424$Y8.704@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com> <41CB767F.E48297FE@yahoo-dot.ca> Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 29 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:03:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.156 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1104401035 172.27.158.156 (Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:03:55 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:03:55 EET Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166546 in , Christopher Kreuzer enriched us with: > > Nah. Ruthlessly snip everything except what you are replying to. Of course that might be a problem -- what am I replying to? The discussion or your comment? (As snipped I am replying to your comment only.) > If you snip right and write clearly, everything should be OK... :-) Me? Write clearly? Writing clearly implies, I'm afraid, an economy of words that I find completely unattainable ;-) -- Troels Forchhammer If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants. - Isaac Newton ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41CA54B2.DAC3ED46@yahoo-dot.ca> <0uByd.2424$Y8.704@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com> <41CB767F.E48297FE@yahoo-dot.ca> Subject: Re: Gollum seeing Frodo at Sammath Naur Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:10:15 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.75.140 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104447988 213.101.75.140 (Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:06:28 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:06:28 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!feed.news.tiscali.de!uio.no!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166598 "Troels Forchhammer" skrev i meddelandet news:foQAd.33591$k4.645757@news1.nokia.com... Jaså, du anlitar Nokia? Varför inte Ericsson? Bara därför att Nokia är bättre? ;-) > in , > Christopher Kreuzer enriched us with: > > > > Nah. Ruthlessly snip everything except what you are replying to. > > Of course that might be a problem -- what am I replying to? The > discussion or your comment? (As snipped I am replying to your comment > only.) > > > If you snip right and write clearly, everything should be OK... :-) > > Me? Write clearly? > > youngsters these days!> > > Writing clearly implies, I'm afraid, an economy of words that I find > completely unattainable ;-) Write clearly about what? Gollum still had his shades on at Sammath Naur! Öjevind