Message-ID: <1103776102_636@corp.com> From: "O. Sharp" Subject: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Summary: User-Agent: tin/1.6.2-20030910 ("Pabbay") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.20-29.8.progeny.8 (i686)) Date: 22 Dec 2004 22:21:16 -0600 Lines: 90 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeed.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out.newsfeeds.com!spool4-maxim!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166143 Okay, well, it's like this: I was watching the extended edition of "Return Of The King: The Motion Picture", and I noticed something which struck me as trivial but annoying at first which gradually began bugging the hell out of me. And now it's got me irritated enough that I just had to drop by for a minute and see if others have had the same experience. And that moment which annoyed me... very minor little spoilers follow... is this: The good guys arrive at Isengard. Gandalf says they need to see Saruman. And then he says - more than once, if I recall correctly - that the _reason_ they need to see Saruman is because Saruman is "deep within the Enemy's counsel," and that therefore they can get information from him, and for emphasis they say they really _need_ that information, and Saruman _almost_ gives them the information before... Grima stabs him, right on cue of course. (Now _there's_ a movie cliche! "The murderer's name is... _urrk!_" "The money's... in the... _urrrk!_" "Sauron's plan is to attack Minas... _urrrrk!_") And what's really beginning to annoy me is how stinkin' _practical_ Gandalf has become. In the book, I always read Gandalf's trip to Isengard - "dangerous, and probably useless, but it must be done" - as an act of mercy: to offer Saruman a chance to turn from evil and redeem himself, to give him an opportunity to be of service again; to offer him a last chance to fulfil his original task. It's notable that only _after_ Saruman rejects this appeal does Gandalf cast him from power. That's a quality to be seen many times in the books, and one which I find especially moving: that the good guys are willing to show pity and mercy even to their enemies. In many ways, that's what _makes_ them good guys. But that's obviously not good enough for the movies. Nope! No pity or mercy here! Gandalf's sole purpose in going to see Saruman is to extract information from him. There's no pity involved; Gandalf is just being _practical_. And so the whole theme of the scene changes: instead of offering a last chance to a helpless enemy, instead of an offer of redemption which is tragically rejected, we have only "We're here because he has something we want." What a loss! The heroes have traded morality in for practicality. Instead of hoping for Saruman's redemption, they're only there to steal his laptop. The same kind of thinking has bothered me in many places in the movie - Faramir's completely ignoble behaviour, Theoden's questioning whether he should even bother riding to Gondor, pretty much every sentiment that ever found its way out of movie-Elrond's mouth - but perhaps because this one came from Gandalf, an emissary of the Valar, someone presumably more concerned with the heart than with the _hroa_, I find it bugged me a _lot_ more. Good God! What's the point in a heavenly emissary if they have nothing more than this to offer? Why not just hire Ken Lay and get on with it? So much of what is horrible and Orc-like in modern-day behaviour - firing people who've worked in an industry all their lives because people will work cheaper in Asia, for one example - gets by because such behavior is so _practical_ and _efficient_, however hideous. One of the appeals of the book is that the heroes aren't "practical" like that: after Helm's Deep they release their Dunlending attackers alive, Faramir gives Frodo his word and even faced with the chance to easily capture the Ring he stays true to his word, and the good guys ride long miles out of their way to offer a second chance to a defeated enemy (and indeed one whom Gandalf thinks will reject the offer anyway: "dangerous, and probably useless, but it must be done"). That quality of mercy is almost wholly absent from the movie (not totally; Gandalf's lesson to Frodo about the pity of Bilbo is still present, at least). It's a shame; that quality of kindness is something which the world could use some occasional reminders of, I think. But that's just me. Opinions? Did this change in Gandalf's motivation, and in the overall tone of the movie this way, bug anyone else? ----------------------------------------------------------------- ohh@drizzle.com Mind you, as tragic as I think this change in the movie is, I'm still not sure that it bugs me as much as Comic-Relief Gimli[tm]. A once-proud race demeaned to this. "Toss me! Toss me! Let me tell you about Dwaven women. Give me a drink!" Nasty and disheartening - and they even showed the Glittering Caves in Helm's Deep, and then the screenwriters wrote out his chance to _see_ them, much less wax poetic about their beauty. Aiya! What's this movie got against Dwarves, anyway? Did Peter Jackson have a childhood trauma involving a Dwarf or something? Did an old relative get caught in the sack of Doriath? What's his damn _problem_?... -----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =----- ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 70.70.200.108 From: Chris Wright User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> In-Reply-To: <1103776102_636@corp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 2 Message-ID: <3jDyd.571657$%k.175561@pd7tw2no> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:32:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1103823167 64.59.144.74 (Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:32:47 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:32:47 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166198 I can only guess that these shortcomings reflect Mr. Jackson's comparative lack of morality -- in comparison to Tolkien's. ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:45:10 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <10sm5ae4c75do81@corp.supernews.com> References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 103 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!195.185.185.44.MISMATCH!feed.news.tiscali.de!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-08!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166208 "O. Sharp" wrote in message news:1103776102_636@corp.com... > And what's really beginning to annoy me is how stinkin' _practical_ > Gandalf has become. I think here it reflects a lack of trust by PJ for his non-reading audience. He knows that anyone who has not read the books won't have a clue as to who/what Gandalf really is, and it wouldn't have lent itself to brief exposition, so he goes for the motivation that *everyone* will understand. Personally, I think it was one of his mistakes, as I don't believe you always *have* to have explanations anyway. > > In the book, I always read Gandalf's trip to Isengard - "dangerous, and > probably useless, but it must be done" - as an act of mercy: to offer > Saruman a chance to turn from evil and redeem himself, to give him an > opportunity to be of service again; to offer him a last chance to fulfil > his original task. It's notable that only _after_ Saruman rejects this > appeal does Gandalf cast him from power. That's a quality to be seen many > times in the books, and one which I find especially moving: that the good > guys are willing to show pity and mercy even to their enemies. In many > ways, that's what _makes_ them good guys. I agree. > > But that's obviously not good enough for the movies. Nope! No pity or > mercy here! Gandalf's sole purpose in going to see Saruman is to extract > information from him. There's no pity involved; Gandalf is just being > _practical_. And so the whole theme of the scene changes: instead of > offering a last chance to a helpless enemy, instead of an offer of > redemption which is tragically rejected, we have only "We're here because > he has something we want." What a loss! The heroes have traded morality in > for practicality. Instead of hoping for Saruman's redemption, they're only > there to steal his laptop. *chuckle* I chose to overlook that, because I felt that the underlying mercy was still there--of course, I've read the books and can *put* it there if I choose. > > The same kind of thinking has bothered me in many places in the movie - > Faramir's completely ignoble behaviour, Theoden's questioning whether he > should even bother riding to Gondor, pretty much every sentiment that ever > found its way out of movie-Elrond's mouth - but perhaps because this one > came from Gandalf, an emissary of the Valar, someone presumably more > concerned with the heart than with the _hroa_, I find it bugged me a _lot_ > more. Good God! What's the point in a heavenly emissary if they have > nothing more than this to offer? Why not just hire Ken Lay and get on with > it? Again, I think PJ decided to go with the obvious, rather than put any strain on the mentality of the non-reading viewers. > > So much of what is horrible and Orc-like in modern-day behaviour - firing > people who've worked in an industry all their lives because people will > work cheaper in Asia, for one example - gets by because such behavior is > so _practical_ and _efficient_, however hideous. One of the appeals of the > book is that the heroes aren't "practical" like that: after Helm's Deep > they release their Dunlending attackers alive, Faramir gives Frodo his > word and even faced with the chance to easily capture the Ring he stays > true to his word, and the good guys ride long miles out of their way to > offer a second chance to a defeated enemy (and indeed one whom Gandalf > thinks will reject the offer anyway: "dangerous, and probably useless, but > it must be done"). That quality of mercy is almost wholly absent from the > movie (not totally; Gandalf's lesson to Frodo about the pity of Bilbo is > still present, at least). It's a shame; that quality of kindness is > something which the world could use some occasional reminders of, I think. > > But that's just me. Opinions? Did this change in Gandalf's motivation, and > in the overall tone of the movie this way, bug anyone else? I won't say I didn't notice it, but other than Faramir, it didn't bother me, because, again I chose to put my book-knowledge in where it was left out. And he did a lot to redeem his poor choices for Faramir in the EE. But there is a good deal of truth to what you say. Barbara > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ohh@drizzle.com Mind you, as tragic as I think this change in > the movie is, I'm still not sure that it bugs me > as much as Comic-Relief Gimli[tm]. A once-proud > race demeaned to this. "Toss me! Toss me! Let me > tell you about Dwaven women. Give me a drink!" > Nasty and disheartening - and they even showed > the Glittering Caves in Helm's Deep, and then > the screenwriters wrote out his chance to _see_ > them, much less wax poetic about their beauty. > Aiya! What's this movie got against Dwarves, > anyway? Did Peter Jackson have a childhood > trauma involving a Dwarf or something? Did an > old relative get caught in the sack of Doriath? > What's his damn _problem_?... > > > -----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- > http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =----- ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:44:11 -0600 From: Rhino 7 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:44:05 -0800 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 2.0/32.646 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.168.117.69 X-Trace: sv3-PZjVOc87B+UTd8W2kalt+uSkmnc2J6pjjHKC/DMroK22CbRbCv4PRjmkppMU5O7yVkwV0EHB6q4SdFd!DAvhspOb8HzjzHmTrkK5Fb/Et0DltF9rmyyuFkvnzsSo5fvdqDGlxHrtMlWowIC3E0vshIQo X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166213 >But that's just me. Opinions? Did this change in Gandalf's motivation, and >in the overall tone of the movie this way, bug anyone else? > >----------------------------------------------------------------- >ohh@drizzle.com How about Gandalf *lying* to Pippin about what to expect the afterlife to look like? (Even if it's only a 'white lie' to make him feel better?) Since when to man-like creatures go to Valinor after death? ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 55 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:10:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1103832649 82.43.126.28 (Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:10:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:10:49 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!195.185.185.44.MISMATCH!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-in.ntli.net!newsrout1-win.ntli.net!news-out.ntli.net!newsrout1-gui.ntli.net!ntli.net!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166216 Rhino 7 wrote: > How about Gandalf *lying* to Pippin about what to expect the afterlife > to look like? (Even if it's only a 'white lie' to make him feel > better?) Since when to man-like creatures go to Valinor after death? Phillipa Boyens makes her reasons for this quite clear on the documentary on the RotK:EE. She says that she sees Frodo's passing West over the Sea as a metaphor for death. I think she also said that Fran Walsh really wanted the "rain curtain" and "far green country" bits in the script *somewhere*. Boyens also said the same about the transfer of the Faramir dream ("dark green wave ... darkness unescapable") to Eowyn. I agree with what Boyens said about that description being deeply personal to Tolkien (it was a dream that Tolkien and one of his sons had), but I don't understand how she can on the one hand say that she is including that scene as a tribute to Tolkien, but then on the other hand say "we couldn't make it work with Faramir, so we gave it to Eowyn" (paraphrased). In my opinion, if you can't make something as deeply personal as that work, then it is best left out (ditto for the "rain curtain" phrase). Eowyn is not Numenorean, and as such the "green wave" phrase jars for those who know the backstory. Also, if you are going to use book lines, it is probably best not to leave out the crucial lines. I can think of two examples straightaway: 1) The "green wave" quote above that was given to Eowyn. The crucial phrase in the book is "darkness unescapable". This is dumped for something about a "dark abyss before me". I must apologise, that phrase is something Eowyn _does_ say: "I stand upon some dreadful brink, and it is utterly dark in the abyss before my feet..." So now we find that Eowyn's line in the film is a merging of her line and Faramir's line. Not sure if this is good or not. 2) At the crossroads, we are given the scene where the sunlight shines on the flowers on the head of the statue of a Gondorian king. This is nice, but the crucial phrase is dropped: "They cannot conquer for ever!" Instead, we get what looks like despair on Sam and Frodo's faces as the darkness falls. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 39 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:20:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1103833240 82.43.126.28 (Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:20:40 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:20:40 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.zanker.org!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166218 O. Sharp wrote: > And what's really beginning to annoy me is how stinkin' _practical_ > Gandalf has become. Agreed. You put it very well. > But that's just me. Opinions? Did this change in Gandalf's > motivation, and in the overall tone of the movie this way, bug anyone > else? I found the replacement motivation to be very suspect. The film is not consistent in saying (through Gandalf) that they are uncertain where Sauron will strike. Faramir uses a map and words tell the viewer that Sauron will strike _hardest_ at Minas Tirith. In the book this is never in doubt. As early as the Council of Elrond we are told that Sauron is massing to strike Gondor, and that Gondor has always borne the brunt of the Enemy's aggression. Gandalf takes Pippin to ride to Minas Tirith "before the seas of war surround it". But in the film, Gandalf seems to use Pippin's palantir-vision of the White Tree to conclude that Sauron will strike Minas Tirith. The impression is that this is a vitally important piece of information - Gandalf Holmes or something. The film then tries to use the palantir scenes to fulfil the genuine book function of luring Sauron to strike early. And a muddle is the result. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 50 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 16:44:16 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.29 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104075633 213.101.77.29 (Sun, 26 Dec 2004 16:40:33 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 16:40:33 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166312 "O. Sharp" skrev i meddelandet news:1103776102_636@corp.com... [snip] > And what's really beginning to annoy me is how stinkin' _practical_ > Gandalf has become. > > In the book, I always read Gandalf's trip to Isengard - "dangerous, and > probably useless, but it must be done" - as an act of mercy: to offer > Saruman a chance to turn from evil and redeem himself, to give him an > opportunity to be of service again; to offer him a last chance to fulfil > his original task. It's notable that only _after_ Saruman rejects this > appeal does Gandalf cast him from power. That's a quality to be seen many > times in the books, and one which I find especially moving: that the good > guys are willing to show pity and mercy even to their enemies. In many > ways, that's what _makes_ them good guys. I completely agree. > But that's obviously not good enough for the movies. Nope! No pity or > mercy here! Gandalf's sole purpose in going to see Saruman is to extract > information from him. There's no pity involved; Gandalf is just being > _practical_. And so the whole theme of the scene changes: instead of > offering a last chance to a helpless enemy, instead of an offer of > redemption which is tragically rejected, we have only "We're here because > he has something we want." What a loss! The heroes have traded morality in > for practicality. Instead of hoping for Saruman's redemption, they're only > there to steal his laptop. > > The same kind of thinking has bothered me in many places in the movie - > Faramir's completely ignoble behaviour, Theoden's questioning whether he > should even bother riding to Gondor, pretty much every sentiment that ever > found its way out of movie-Elrond's mouth - but perhaps because this one > came from Gandalf, an emissary of the Valar, someone presumably more > concerned with the heart than with the _hroa_, I find it bugged me a _lot_ > more. Good God! What's the point in a heavenly emissary if they have > nothing more than this to offer? Why not just hire Ken Lay and get on with > it? I'm afraid everything indicates that nobility - truly noble behaviour - is quite alien to Peter Jackson. That was no doubt the reason why he turned Faramir into a ruthless, brutal brigand; he simply didn't understand Faramir as depicted in the book. A wise, gentle man, more fond of lore than of fighting though a very valiant soldier! Oh dear, Faramir would not have qualified for the Dirty Dozen, would he? Öjevind ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:13:30 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 35 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166333 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message news:RXAzd.7327$Of5.5112@nntpserver.swip.net... > "O. Sharp" skrev i meddelandet > news:1103776102_636@corp.com... > > [snip] > > > And what's really beginning to annoy me is how stinkin' _practical_ > > Gandalf has become. (snip) > I'm afraid everything indicates that nobility - truly noble behaviour - is > quite alien to Peter Jackson. That was no doubt the reason why he turned > Faramir into a ruthless, brutal brigand; he simply didn't understand Faramir > as depicted in the book. A wise, gentle man, more fond of lore than of > fighting though a very valiant soldier! Oh dear, Faramir would not have > qualified for the Dirty Dozen, would he? Although I was not happy with the turn of events in the film version of RotK as regards Faramir, I would say he was not anywhere *near* a "brutal, ruthless, brigand". I saw him as being more easily tempted and less noble than book-Faramir, true, but not to that extent, and in the end he *did* end up doing the right thing for the right reason, even though he knew his father would condemn him for it. In other words, he was flawed, but neither brutal nor ruthless, or he never would have had a change of heart. Barbara > > Öjevind > > ###### From: "Alan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 42 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: <90Izd.89279$K7.52370@news-server.bigpond.net.au> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:43:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.54.20.173 X-Complaints-To: abuse@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1104104581 203.54.20.173 (Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:43:01 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:43:01 EST Organization: BigPond Internet Services Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.moat.net!lon-transit.news.telstra.net!lon-in.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166334 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message news:RXAzd.7327$Of5.5112@nntpserver.swip.net... > "O. Sharp" skrev i meddelandet > news:1103776102_636@corp.com... > > [snip] > > I'm afraid everything indicates that nobility - truly noble behaviour - is > quite alien to Peter Jackson. That was no doubt the reason why he turned > Faramir into a ruthless, brutal brigand; he simply didn't understand > Faramir > as depicted in the book. A wise, gentle man, more fond of lore than of > fighting though a very valiant soldier! Oh dear, Faramir would not have > qualified for the Dirty Dozen, would he? > > Öjevind > I'm not sure that I agree with your interpretation of Faramir's character. As I saw it ,Faramir was being loyal to his Lord and Father in bringing the Ring to Minas Tirith. From Letter 244 "He was daunted by his father" "He had been accustomed to giving away and not giving way and not giving his own opinion air,while retaining a power of command among men, such as a man may obtain who is evidently personally courageous and decisive, but also modest, fairminded and scrupulously just and very merciful" My view is that is what the film portrays sucessfully. Alan ###### From: "Jette Goldie" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:47:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.41.77.252 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1104104861 82.41.77.252 (Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:47:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:47:41 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166335 "aelfwina" wrote > Although I was not happy with the turn of events in the film version of RotK > as regards Faramir, I would say he was not anywhere *near* a "brutal, > ruthless, brigand". I saw him as being more easily tempted and less noble > than book-Faramir, true, but not to that extent, and in the end he *did* end > up doing the right thing for the right reason, even though he knew his > father would condemn him for it. In other words, he was flawed, but neither > brutal nor ruthless, or he never would have had a change of heart. > Barbara EE Faramir is even *less* a "brutal, ruthless brigand" - a noble man, just not an unrealistically noble one. -- Jette "Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes jette@blueyonder.co.uk http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ ###### From: "borromini" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.204.157.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr14.news.prodigy.com 1104136943 ST000 63.204.157.50 (Mon, 27 Dec 2004 03:42:23 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 03:42:23 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: OX[URXKED@^SSVDYLJJ\OPLI[B]NQHMHCIXNMRQIMASJETAANVW[AKWZE\]^XQWIGNE_[EBL@^_\^JOCQ^RSNVLGTFTKHTXHHP[NB\_C@\SD@EP_[KCXX__AGDDEKGFNB\ZOKLRNCY_CGG[RHT_UN@C_BSY\G__IJIX_PLSA[CCFAULEY\FL\VLGANTQQ]FN Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:42:23 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr14.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!aabfe827!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166347 "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > I'm afraid everything indicates that nobility - truly noble behaviour - is > quite alien to Peter Jackson. That was no doubt the reason why he turned > Faramir into a ruthless, brutal brigand; he simply didn't understand > Faramir > as depicted in the book. A wise, gentle man, more fond of lore than of > fighting though a very valiant soldier! Oh dear, Faramir would not have > qualified for the Dirty Dozen, would he? I think you're missing the point about PJ's film in relationship to the book. It's not a question about whether he understood book Faramir. Between PJ, PB and FW (screenplay authors) I'm fairly certain they understood book Faramir and simply decided they were going to treat him differently just as they did with so many of the other characters. I didn't particularly like all their treatment of those characters and the modified storyline/themes, but it's clear that this is not because Tolkien's themes are misunderstood. They just simply were not interested in making a film that's faithful to the books regardless of what they've publicly stated. borromini ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:24:15 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.76.111 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104153631 213.101.76.111 (Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:20:31 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:20:31 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166353 "Jette Goldie" skrev i meddelandet news:x4Izd.7437$Ar5.5690@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk... [snip] > EE Faramir is even *less* a "brutal, ruthless brigand" - a noble > man, just not an unrealistically noble one. I would not call Faramir unrealistically noble. And that is quite apart from such things as him being farsighted because of his Númenorean blood and other things that are a fact in Middle-earth but not on our Earth. Also, keep in mind that had he taken the Ring, Middle-earth would have been doomed; in the book he had the wisdom to know this at once whereas in the film, he behaves quite differently. And nothing can excuse the Gestapo-like roughing up of Gollum in the film. Öjevind ###### From: "Jette Goldie" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:10:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.41.77.252 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1104160253 82.41.77.252 (Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:10:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:10:53 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166357 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message news:z_Tzd.7484$Of5.5170@nntpserver.swip.net... > "Jette Goldie" skrev i meddelandet > news:x4Izd.7437$Ar5.5690@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk... > > [snip] > > > EE Faramir is even *less* a "brutal, ruthless brigand" - a noble > > man, just not an unrealistically noble one. > > I would not call Faramir unrealistically noble. And that is quite apart from > such things as him being farsighted because of his Númenorean blood and > other things that are a fact in Middle-earth but not on our Earth. Also, > keep in mind that had he taken the Ring, Middle-earth would have been > doomed; in the book he had the wisdom to know this at once whereas in the > film, he behaves quite differently. And nothing can excuse the Gestapo-like > roughing up of Gollum in the film. ??? Did we see the same movie? I saw no such scene - even on the extended. -- Jette "Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes jette@blueyonder.co.uk http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: 27 Dec 2004 15:14:17 GMT Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> X-Trace: individual.net 6igsSA8HmaPEbYNSAzVqtAReVBDo0XtO3Df5wRXKTgWemdzsUS User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166358 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in news:z_Tzd.7484$Of5.5170@nntpserver.swip.net: > "Jette Goldie" skrev i meddelandet > news:x4Izd.7437$Ar5.5690@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk... > > [snip] > >> EE Faramir is even *less* a "brutal, ruthless brigand" - a noble >> man, just not an unrealistically noble one. > > I would not call Faramir unrealistically noble. And that is quite > apart from such things as him being farsighted because of his > Númenorean blood and other things that are a fact in Middle-earth > but not on our Earth. Also, keep in mind that had he taken the > Ring, Middle-earth would have been doomed; in the book he had the > wisdom to know this at once whereas in the film, he behaves quite > differently. And nothing can excuse the Gestapo-like roughing up > of Gollum in the film. Ojevind, what do you think of King Harry of Agincourt fame? One of the greatest Kings England's ever had? -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: Michelle J. Haines Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 Lines: 21 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:22:03 EST Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:22:08 -0700 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!63.223.20.72.MISMATCH!sjc1.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!fe25.usenetserver.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166359 In article <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, jet@blueyonder.com.uk says... > > ??? Did we see the same movie? I saw no such scene - even on > the extended. It's definitely in the EE. Faramir's men knock him around quite a bit. They cut it from the TR because they thought it would make Faramir too much of a bad guy. Michelle Flutist -- Drift on a river, That flows through my arms Drift as I'm singing to you I see you smiling, So peaceful and calm And holding you, I'm smiling, too Here in my arms, Safe from all harm Holding you, I'm smiling, too -- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99] ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: 27 Dec 2004 15:24:55 GMT Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> X-Trace: individual.net UY9g2STpO3pyL6DPRaolAg6KZjeI8FaieN6yHAM11WnzllzpOz User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166361 "Jette Goldie" wrote in news:1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk: > "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message > news:z_Tzd.7484$Of5.5170@nntpserver.swip.net... >> "Jette Goldie" skrev i meddelandet >> news:x4Izd.7437$Ar5.5690@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk... >> >> [snip] >> >> > EE Faramir is even *less* a "brutal, ruthless brigand" - a >> > noble man, just not an unrealistically noble one. >> >> I would not call Faramir unrealistically noble. And that is quite >> apart >> from >> such things as him being farsighted because of his Númenorean >> blood and other things that are a fact in Middle-earth but not on >> our Earth. Also, keep in mind that had he taken the Ring, >> Middle-earth would have been doomed; in the book he had the >> wisdom to know this at once whereas in the film, he behaves quite >> differently. And nothing can excuse the >> Gestapo-like >> roughing up of Gollum in the film. > > ??? Did we see the same movie? I saw no such scene - even on > the extended. The Rangers gave Gollum a roughing up in TTTEE before Faramir came in (IIRC) and put a stop to it. With a different POV from Ojevind, I had little problem with the scene; I'd always felt that such things existed, but were just not written about by Tolkien. After all, such happenings and worse were taken as granted in RL, even during the peak of the 'chivalric' age, eg. Henry V's behaviour during and after Agincourt, British actions after Rorke's Drift, etc. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: "Jette Goldie" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: <0dWzd.7683$Ar5.3804@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:52:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.41.77.252 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1104162748 82.41.77.252 (Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:52:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:52:28 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.euro.net!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166367 "Michelle J. Haines" wrote in message news:MPG.1c39d658a91b9be09896eb@news.starband.net... > In article <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, > jet@blueyonder.com.uk says... > > > > ??? Did we see the same movie? I saw no such scene - even on > > the extended. > > It's definitely in the EE. Faramir's men knock him around quite a > bit. They cut it from the TR because they thought it would make > Faramir too much of a bad guy. However *Faramir* does no such thing. Let me see, you are Rangers charged with the protection of your country from evil men........ terrorists. Someone rather suspicious turns up, and is obviously up to no good. Even the noble US forces don't sit such people down with a cup of tea for a chat. -- Jette "Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes jette@blueyonder.co.uk http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ ###### From: "Gregg Cattanach" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.44.85.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr31.news.prodigy.com 1104164890 ST000 12.44.85.20 (Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:28:10 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:28:10 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: Q[R_@SZEVJV[C\LY@JKBORTDEZXXPGLLEXRZKB]MPXHTEPIB_NVUAH_[BL[\IRKIANGGJBFNJF_DOLSCENSY^U@FRFUEXR@KFXYDBPWBCDQJA@X_DCBHXR[C@\EOKCJLED_SZ@RMWYXYWE_P@\\GOIW^@SYFFSWHFIXMADO@^[ADPRPETLBJ]RDGENSKQQZN Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:28:10 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr31.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!9c9da953!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166369 Jette Goldie wrote: > "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message > news:z_Tzd.7484$Of5.5170@nntpserver.swip.net... Also, keep in mind that had he taken the Ring, >> Middle-earth would have been doomed; in the book he had the wisdom >> to know this at once whereas in the film, he behaves quite >> differently. And nothing can excuse the Gestapo-like roughing up of >> Gollum in the film. > > > ??? Did we see the same movie? I saw no such scene - even on > the extended. This Gollum abuse is in the Two Towers EE just before Faramir interrogates Gollum. -- Gregg C. ###### From: "Jette Goldie" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:05:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.41.77.252 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1104167141 82.41.77.252 (Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:05:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:05:41 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166371 "Gregg Cattanach" wrote in message news:uKWzd.3641$sS6.2063@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com... > Jette Goldie wrote: > > "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message > > news:z_Tzd.7484$Of5.5170@nntpserver.swip.net... > Also, keep in mind that had he taken the Ring, > >> Middle-earth would have been doomed; in the book he had the wisdom > >> to know this at once whereas in the film, he behaves quite > >> differently. And nothing can excuse the Gestapo-like roughing up of > >> Gollum in the film. > > > > > > ??? Did we see the same movie? I saw no such scene - even on > > the extended. > > This Gollum abuse is in the Two Towers EE just before Faramir interrogates > Gollum. I have that DVD. = Faramir= commits no such crime. -- Jette Never bet on Star Trek trivia if your opponent speaks Klingon. - Ancient Kung Foole Proverb jette@blueyonder.co.uk ###### From: "Gregg Cattanach" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.44.85.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr19.news.prodigy.com 1104172016 ST000 12.44.85.20 (Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:26:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:26:56 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: [[PA@SZEVJV[C\LY@JKBORTDEZXXPGLLEXRZKB]MPXHJUZ]CDVW[AKK[J\]^HVKHG^EWZHBLO^[\NH_AZFWGN^\DHNVMX_DHHX[FSQKBOTS@@BP^]C@RHS_AGDDC[AJM_T[GZNRNZAY]GNCPBDYKOLK^_CZFWPGHZIXW@C[AFKBBQS@E@DAZ]VDFUNTQQ]FN Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:26:56 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr19.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!9c9da953!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166378 Jette Goldie wrote: > "Gregg Cattanach" wrote in message > news:uKWzd.3641$sS6.2063@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com... >> Jette Goldie wrote: >>> "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message >>> news:z_Tzd.7484$Of5.5170@nntpserver.swip.net... >> Also, keep in mind that had he taken the Ring, >>>> Middle-earth would have been doomed; in the book he had the wisdom >>>> to know this at once whereas in the film, he behaves quite >>>> differently. And nothing can excuse the Gestapo-like roughing up of >>>> Gollum in the film. >>> >>> >>> ??? Did we see the same movie? I saw no such scene - even on >>> the extended. >> >> This Gollum abuse is in the Two Towers EE just before Faramir >> interrogates Gollum. > > > I have that DVD. = Faramir= commits no such crime. If my statement implied that Faramir was the abuser, then I should have been more explicit. His lieutenants are battering him around, Faramir is watching, and then he tells them 'that is enough'. However, in the scene where he leads Frodo, Sam and Gollum to the sewers that lead away from Osgiliath, he does bash Gollum around a fair amount at that point. -- Gregg C. ###### From: Michelle J. Haines Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <0dWzd.7683$Ar5.3804@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 Lines: 42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:34:42 EST Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:33:51 -0700 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!atl-c03.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!fe25.usenetserver.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166389 In article <0dWzd.7683$Ar5.3804@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, jet@blueyonder.com.uk says... > > "Michelle J. Haines" wrote in message > news:MPG.1c39d658a91b9be09896eb@news.starband.net... > > > > It's definitely in the EE. Faramir's men knock him around quite a > > bit. They cut it from the TR because they thought it would make > > Faramir too much of a bad guy. > > > However *Faramir* does no such thing. No, but he was standing in the room letting it go on until Faramir was softened up. > Let me see, you are Rangers charged with the protection of > your country from evil men........ terrorists. Someone rather > suspicious turns up, and is obviously up to no good. Even the > noble US forces don't sit such people down with a cup of tea > for a chat. No one is saying it doesn't happen. The objection is to the characters being portrayed with more real-world morals than Tolkien's high nobility. For the most part I like the movies the way they are. It was a wince-inducing scene, though, and not necessarily because it was a bad scene, it was just hard to watch. You hardly need two guys to beat up a Hobbit. Michelle Flutist -- Drift on a river, That flows through my arms Drift as I'm singing to you I see you smiling, So peaceful and calm And holding you, I'm smiling, too Here in my arms, Safe from all harm Holding you, I'm smiling, too -- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99] ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:53:56 +0100 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <33blkkF3qmb1fU1@individual.net> References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: individual.net 5uquvEXzf9tIc9E6IXb4+gXkJUqIIB0tskb05ZDGP2kyQDNsLf X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166396 in , borromini enriched us with: > > I think you're missing the point about PJ's film in relationship to > the book. It's not a question about whether he understood book > that this is not because Tolkien's themes are misunderstood. They > just simply were not interested in making a film that's faithful to > the books regardless of what they've publicly stated. Well said! Now, whether to be disappointed about that must of course remain a subjective matter -- probably something that defies analysis. -- Troels Forchhammer One who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in fetters. - Aragorn "Strider", 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien) ###### From: "perrin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:14:13 +0800 Organization: Singapore Telecommunications Ltd Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 220.255.193.94 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.loxinfo.co.th!peony.singnet.com.sg!columbine.singnet.com.sg!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166402 Right. Didn't the Elves and Gandalf do the same to Gollum when they first caught him (in Gandalf's telling to Frodo)? -- cheers perrin "Yuk Tang" wrote in message news:Xns95CC9CD1F3869jimlaker2yahoocom@130.133.1.4... : "Jette Goldie" wrote in : news:1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk: : > "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message : > news:z_Tzd.7484$Of5.5170@nntpserver.swip.net... : >> "Jette Goldie" skrev i meddelandet : >> news:x4Izd.7437$Ar5.5690@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk... : >> : The Rangers gave Gollum a roughing up in TTTEE before Faramir came in : (IIRC) and put a stop to it. With a different POV from Ojevind, I : had little problem with the scene; I'd always felt that such things : existed, but were just not written about by Tolkien. After all, such : happenings and worse were taken as granted in RL, even during the : peak of the 'chivalric' age, eg. Henry V's behaviour during and after : Agincourt, British actions after Rorke's Drift, etc. : : : -- : Cheers, ymt. ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: 28 Dec 2004 02:46:36 GMT Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> X-Trace: individual.net Z6GLShYCz800aCRF/XGnOgJw3dOLSp6EG7wiwbHcgf2H1TL+Fr User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166407 [Reformatted] "perrin" wrote in news:cqqa9s$naf$1@mawar.singnet.com.sg: > "Yuk Tang" wrote in message > news:Xns95CC9CD1F3869jimlaker2yahoocom@130.133.1.4... >: >> >: The Rangers gave Gollum a roughing up in TTTEE before Faramir >: came in (IIRC) and put a stop to it. With a different POV from >: Ojevind, I had little problem with the scene; I'd always felt >: that such things existed, but were just not written about by >: Tolkien. After all, such happenings and worse were taken as >: granted in RL, even during the peak of the 'chivalric' age, eg. >: Henry V's behaviour during and after Agincourt, British actions >: after Rorke's Drift, etc. > > Right. Didn't the Elves and Gandalf do the same to Gollum when > they first caught him (in Gandalf's telling to Frodo)? Firstly, don't top post, especially if you're going to use a signature line. My newsreader (Xnews) cuts off everything from signature onwards, as do many other newsreaders, so the thread of conversation is lost unless people take the trouble of splicing together two replies as I did in this. Secondly, the Elves were reportedly quite gentle to Gollum, but Aragorn wasn't. Gollum was quite unpleasant when captured by Aragorn, and the Ranger returned the favour. That's partly why I didn't see the TTTEE beating with much surprise; things happen, it's just that historians don't often write about it, or allude to it using euphemisms. The RL historical events referred to above were: 1. Having captured a number of Frenchmen during the main battle of Agincourt, Henry V was faced with another French attack that had broken into his baggage train. Not having enough men to both guard the prisoners and deal with this threat, he executed the prisoners. IIRC Shakespeare didn't make much of this in his play. 2. After driving off the Zulu attack at Rorke's Drift, the British went over the battlefield and systematically bayoneted all the Zulu wounded. IIRC the film didn't include this incident. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:29:28 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.205 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104247541 213.101.77.205 (Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:25:41 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:25:41 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166423 "Yuk Tang" skrev i meddelandet [snip] > The Rangers gave Gollum a roughing up in TTTEE before Faramir came in > (IIRC) and put a stop to it. With a different POV from Ojevind, I > had little problem with the scene; I'd always felt that such things > existed, but were just not written about by Tolkien. After all, such > happenings and worse were taken as granted in RL, even during the > peak of the 'chivalric' age, eg. Henry V's behaviour during and after > Agincourt, British actions after Rorke's Drift, etc. Yes, but Middle-earth was not Europe dutring the Middle Ages. Tolkien depicts it as much nobler than that. Öjevind ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:32:26 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.205 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104247723 213.101.77.205 (Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:28:43 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:28:43 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166424 "Yuk Tang" skrev i meddelandet [snip] > > I would not call Faramir unrealistically noble. And that is quite > > apart from such things as him being farsighted because of his > > Númenorean blood and other things that are a fact in Middle-earth > > but not on our Earth. Also, keep in mind that had he taken the > > Ring, Middle-earth would have been doomed; in the book he had the > > wisdom to know this at once whereas in the film, he behaves quite > > differently. And nothing can excuse the Gestapo-like roughing up > > of Gollum in the film. > > Ojevind, what do you think of King Harry of Agincourt fame? One of the > greatest Kings England's ever had? "Not Amurath an Amurath succeeds, but Harry Harry"? Well, he lived in medieval Europe, which was a brutal place. Tolkien describes his Gondoreans as more civilized than that. Öjevind ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: 28 Dec 2004 16:29:21 GMT Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> X-Trace: individual.net qfzjbot64d+684F5auwM7Q9EJoNbdyP/o50mC2PABd3VNsaINY User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166427 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in news:LYeAd.7768$Of5.5511@nntpserver.swip.net: > "Yuk Tang" skrev i meddelandet > > [snip] > >> > I would not call Faramir unrealistically noble. And that is >> > quite apart from such things as him being farsighted because of >> > his Númenorean blood and other things that are a fact in >> > Middle-earth but not on our Earth. Also, keep in mind that had >> > he taken the Ring, Middle-earth would have been doomed; in the >> > book he had the wisdom to know this at once whereas in the >> > film, he behaves quite differently. And nothing can excuse the >> > Gestapo-like roughing up of Gollum in the film. >> >> Ojevind, what do you think of King Harry of Agincourt fame? One >> of the greatest Kings England's ever had? > > "Not Amurath an Amurath succeeds, but Harry Harry"? Well, he lived > in medieval Europe, which was a brutal place. Tolkien describes > his Gondoreans as more civilized than that. Aragorn (from the North Kingdom) was no shirker of the rough stuff, as he admits himself. In the bad old days, torture was often systematically used to gain information. Even nowadays, as a relative in the police told me to widening eyes, the existence of a CoC doesn't completely stop the authorities from using intimidation to get their way. It's the old stick and carrot routine, and historically the stick is more favoured, and the carrot often just seems pleasant in comparison with the stick (tell me what you know and I'll tell the guards to stop beating the *&%$ out of you). European campaigns, where the only thing at stake was sovereignty over disputed areas, saw quite a few atrocities. Harry made examples of the towns he had to fight for, thus terrorising others into surrendering. Even Alexander, with his noble reputation, indulged in such acts. I don't see what's so unrealistic about the Gondorian Rangers beating Gollum up a bit as a prelude to questioning, especially if we presume that some prior questioning had already taken place with little success. Remember that more is at stake than was the case with the various Anglo-French wars, and not killing Gollum out of hand was already an act of mercy beyond their orders. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: 28 Dec 2004 16:36:45 GMT Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> X-Trace: individual.net tLPUldoAEL10Uv7jc2un3QbUG5GjIETPUIBAHOWZmb7Gzgvzmr User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166428 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in news:VVeAd.7766$Of5.5507@nntpserver.swip.net: > "Yuk Tang" skrev i meddelandet > > [snip] > >> The Rangers gave Gollum a roughing up in TTTEE before Faramir >> came in (IIRC) and put a stop to it. With a different POV from >> Ojevind, I had little problem with the scene; I'd always felt >> that such things existed, but were just not written about by >> Tolkien. After all, such happenings and worse were taken as >> granted in RL, even during the peak of the 'chivalric' age, eg. >> Henry V's behaviour during and after Agincourt, British actions >> after Rorke's Drift, etc. > > Yes, but Middle-earth was not Europe dutring the Middle Ages. > Tolkien depicts it as much nobler than that. One could argue that the Middle Ages were not the Middle Ages. The poets depicted it as much nobler than that. It's a case of accepting that what Tolkien was what happened, or whether there were happenings on the margins that were not worthy of note (cue discussion of whether or not Elves needed lavatories). I can't remember whether it's Tolkien scholars or Tolkien himself who said it, but we should remember that Middle Earth was supposed to be an alternative history/mythology of our world, and therefore (unless specifically noted) the same rules apply. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### Message-ID: <41D19416.6000508@sympatico.ca> From: Joel Polowin Reply-To: jpolowinXYZZy@sympatico.ca User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:12:54 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.209.183.126 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1104253974 216.209.183.126 (Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:12:54 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:12:54 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!cyclone.bc.net!news.uunet.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166430 Yuk Tang wrote: > I don't see what's so unrealistic about the Gondorian Rangers > beating Gollum up a bit as a prelude to questioning, Not Rangers. Aragorn's people (Halbarad et al.) were Rangers; Faramir's men weren't. -- Joel Polowin jpolowinXYZZy@sympatico.ca but delete "XYZZy" from address "If you show trophy fish in first act, then by third act you must show that it is only red herring." -- Pavel Chekov ###### From: "Speaking Clock" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:56:40 -0000 Organization: - Lines: 19 Message-ID: <33dodjF3v7k46U1@individual.net> References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <41D19416.6000508@sympatico.ca> X-Trace: individual.net uC3OEEr5UtfhnHEf5DbLxgmGqX2DDax/kI6/J8tR2GFPvRn2s= Keywords: world X-No-archive: yes X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Response Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166434 Joel Polowin wrote: > Yuk Tang wrote: >> I don't see what's so unrealistic about the Gondorian >> Rangers beating Gollum up a bit as a prelude to questioning, > > Not Rangers. Aragorn's people (Halbarad et al.) were Rangers; > Faramir's men weren't. "After a while he spoke to them; but they were slow and cautious in answering. They named themselves Mablung and Damrod, soldiers of Gondor, and they were Rangers of Ithilien; for they were descended from folk who lived in Ithilien at one time, before it was overrun. From such men the Lord Denethor chose his forayers, who crossed the Anduin secretly (how or where, they would not say) to harry the Orcs and other enemies that roamed between the Ephel Dúath and the River." (Of Herbs And Stewed Rabbit) -- Speaking Clock ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:35:21 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.75.65 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104334296 213.101.75.65 (Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:31:36 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:31:36 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166477 "Yuk Tang" skrev i meddelandet news:Xns95CDA9007583Fjimlaker2yahoocom@130.133.1.4. [snip] > One could argue that the Middle Ages were not the Middle Ages. The > poets depicted it as much nobler than that. It's a case of accepting > that what Tolkien was what happened, or whether there were happenings > on the margins that were not worthy of note (cue discussion of > whether or not Elves needed lavatories). I can't remember whether > it's Tolkien scholars or Tolkien himself who said it, but we should > remember that Middle Earth was supposed to be an alternative > history/mythology of our world, and therefore (unless specifically > noted) the same rules apply. Well... I regard Tolkien's books as works of fiction, and hence the author's opinions about the world and characters portrayed are rather important. Öjevind ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:37:30 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.75.65 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104334424 213.101.75.65 (Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:33:44 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:33:44 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166478 "Yuk Tang" skrev i meddelandet news:Xns95CDA7BF5C4BEjimlaker2yahoocom@130.133.1.4... > "Öjevind Lång" wrote in [snip] > European campaigns, where the only thing at stake was sovereignty > over disputed areas, saw quite a few atrocities. Harry made examples > of the towns he had to fight for, thus terrorising others into > surrendering. Even Alexander, with his noble reputation, indulged in > such acts. Alexander was a drink-sodden, half-barbarian killer, and his Greek contemporaries regarded him as such. The glorification of him only started later. Öjevind ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: 29 Dec 2004 15:40:36 GMT Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> X-Trace: individual.net QMCsdzzYy+r3s3am8X+K0wGDqp+kEwZGAzmMUMLR6kCgDt1t0t User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166479 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in news:s5AAd.8038$Of5.5727@nntpserver.swip.net: > "Yuk Tang" skrev i meddelandet > news:Xns95CDA9007583Fjimlaker2yahoocom@130.133.1.4. > > [snip] > >> One could argue that the Middle Ages were not the Middle Ages. >> The poets depicted it as much nobler than that. It's a case of >> accepting that what Tolkien was what happened, or whether there >> were happenings on the margins that were not worthy of note (cue >> discussion of whether or not Elves needed lavatories). I can't >> remember whether it's Tolkien scholars or Tolkien himself who >> said it, but we should remember that Middle Earth was supposed to >> be an alternative history/mythology of our world, and therefore >> (unless specifically noted) the same rules apply. > > Well... I regard Tolkien's books as works of fiction, and hence > the author's opinions about the world and characters portrayed are > rather important. Fair enough. My argument is just that Aragorn's hints shows that 'nobility' was no barrier to treating captives with a certain amount of roughness, and interpreting the euphemisms using RL rules. That said, Aragorn, being the loner that he often was, may have been more used to dishing out such treatment. As seen in the Council, Boromir was used to 'honourable' open warfare, with its accompanying rules of conduct, while Aragorn worked in a more undercover/underhand manner. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: "robert j. kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 14 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s03 1104334858 24.62.143.251 (Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:40:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:40:58 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:40:58 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wns14feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s03.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166480 Öjevind Lång wrote: > Alexander was a drink-sodden, half-barbarian killer, and his Greek > contemporaries regarded him as such. The glorification of him only started > later. Yup. He was probably the most successful thug in history. However, he did spread some elements of Greek culture far and wide. His city, Alexandria was the nexus of some of the greatest scientific work of the ancient world. It is is ill wind that does not blow some good to someone. Bob Kolker ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: 29 Dec 2004 15:49:04 GMT Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> X-Trace: individual.net dGPZ1YKRg+Mym871V4h57gF4wR3M4lbb++OI9Bm3ccMYz6u06T User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166481 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in news:s7AAd.8039$Of5.5732@nntpserver.swip.net: > "Yuk Tang" skrev i meddelandet > news:Xns95CDA7BF5C4BEjimlaker2yahoocom@130.133.1.4... >> "Öjevind Lång" wrote in > > [snip] > >> European campaigns, where the only thing at stake was sovereignty >> over disputed areas, saw quite a few atrocities. Harry made >> examples of the towns he had to fight for, thus terrorising >> others into surrendering. Even Alexander, with his noble >> reputation, indulged in such acts. > > Alexander was a drink-sodden, half-barbarian killer, and his Greek > contemporaries regarded him as such. The glorification of him only > started later. By the Successors, especially Ptolemy? I have to admit that my main source is Arrian, and he draws from a pro-Alexander tradition. http://www.livius.org/arl-arz/arrian/arrian.htm -- Cheers, ymt. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:39:32 -0600 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:38:03 -0500 From: Flame of the West User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <4fadnbSN1-x5ZE_cRVn-jg@comcast.com> Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.49.70.57 X-Trace: sv3-4ILkP2Kk+gVOh6ABjQsPHUv0RBGqOsOJlnqrDAc3gN3HDs05o0NYINFUE0L8EskSyPZT3KcLnSF1qPz!PXyi7LXit1/VQrsbmLOJ3qYgJS8DNM7nPyv5zsWlncHkOLKU//eFGDwUSno= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166490 Öjevind Lång wrote: > Alexander was a drink-sodden, half-barbarian killer, and his Greek > contemporaries regarded him as such. Was his mother really the babe she was portrayed as in the movie? -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: nat_mann@yahoo.com (Natman) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Message-ID: <41d304b6.8449519@netnews.comcast.net> References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <4fadnbSN1-x5ZE_cRVn-jg@comcast.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.5.115.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s02 1104348454 24.5.115.189 (Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:27:34 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:27:34 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:27:34 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wns14feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s02.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166496 On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:38:03 -0500, Flame of the West wrote: >Öjevind Lång wrote: > >> Alexander was a drink-sodden, half-barbarian killer, and his Greek >> contemporaries regarded him as such. > >Was his mother really the babe she was portrayed as >in the movie? > > > > Yep. And she was really just one year older than he was. (Angelina Jolie b. 1975, Colin Farrell b. 1976) ###### From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:55:15 +0100 Organization: Encephalo Productions Lines: 16 Message-ID: <33ggd9F415jfpU1@individual.net> References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <4fadnbSN1-x5ZE_cRVn-jg@comcast.com> <41d304b6.8449519@netnews.comcast.net> Reply-To: "Taemon" X-Trace: individual.net U59tNHJiSvtFeRgU2wtJ3QRxFfnNw/iHN4UhZp/98uZ6vHpXMO X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166500 Natman wrote: > On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:38:03 -0500, Flame of the West > wrote: > > Öjevind Lång wrote: > > > Alexander was a drink-sodden, half-barbarian killer, > > > and his Greek contemporaries regarded him as such. > > Was his mother really the babe she was portrayed as > > in the movie? > Yep. And she was really just one year older than he was. And he also rode the same horse during his 30-years long career. T. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:51:29 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:55:26 -0800 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <4fadnbSN1-x5ZE_cRVn-jg@comcast.com> <41d304b6.8449519@netnews.comcast.net> <33ggd9F415jfpU1@individual.net> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.23.131.109 X-Trace: sv3-fRgwNIBUOuaXorg5iJ617fce9oHnqRNivrAUm87lnKbWVnxJ1ZQs8f8Gkpp/6HbbdXiDBFDW67YdLoG!Kpf6rfyHXQZ3jv9027lVNQClLnICHh5qfLVLn7ZrVTjlhygM/0j+ZeOD3Hv6ejcHTn3BXc28D+e1!8IVg3A4v X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166503 In article <33ggd9F415jfpU1@individual.net>, Taemon@zonnet.nl says... > Natman wrote: > > > On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:38:03 -0500, Flame of the West > > wrote: > > > Öjevind Lång wrote: > > > > Alexander was a drink-sodden, half-barbarian killer, > > > > and his Greek contemporaries regarded him as such. > > > Was his mother really the babe she was portrayed as > > > in the movie? > > Yep. And she was really just one year older than he was. > > And he also rode the same horse during his 30-years long career. From age 12 (when he tamed Bucephalus) until Bucephalus died in the battle at the Hydapses (in 326), three years before Alexander's death (in 322). -- Tar-Elenion He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:54:27 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:58:24 -0800 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <4fadnbSN1-x5ZE_cRVn-jg@comcast.com> <41d304b6.8449519@netnews.comcast.net> <33ggd9F415jfpU1@individual.net> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.23.131.109 X-Trace: sv3-0Ioy3jPt1IWjq+9f6KBBEpDkEjPZksqQ5bqkUi1z76ydDVbH2QR2ELyxCDxOwKQOJYn4c8rOhn0uup1!m4LsFO9LbpM0UYFE6V0GQCJP6uYSYDB/MlHrpJojwN12uTJWq4A8vOhzblY+vu/9KE7Pvh4kHZWt!J+p1uDThZw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166505 In article , tar_elenion@hotmail.com says... > From age 12 (when he tamed Bucephalus) until Bucephalus died in the > battle at the Hydapses (in 326), three years before Alexander's death > (in 322). That should read '323'. -- Tar-Elenion He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:28:21 -0800 Organization: None to Speak Of Message-ID: <3sa6t0185m32nadmltlouu539rna25np7j@4ax.com> References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166508 On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:37:30 +0100, "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > >Alexander was a drink-sodden, half-barbarian killer, and his Greek >contemporaries regarded him as such. The glorification of him only started >later. > Not a sweetie like Röd Orm? the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: 29 Dec 2004 23:08:27 GMT Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <4fadnbSN1-x5ZE_cRVn-jg@comcast.com> <41d304b6.8449519@netnews.comcast.net> <33ggd9F415jfpU1@individual.net> X-Trace: individual.net voT7y08/tGTHKmq4GjhiYA/pfPoAKivGuYywN/So3Lw1bVZfI/ User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166511 "Taemon" wrote in news:33ggd9F415jfpU1 @individual.net: > Natman wrote: >> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:38:03 -0500, Flame of the West >> wrote: >> > Öjevind Lång wrote: >> > > Alexander was a drink-sodden, half-barbarian killer, >> > > and his Greek contemporaries regarded him as such. >> > Was his mother really the babe she was portrayed as >> > in the movie? >> Yep. And she was really just one year older than he was. > > And he also rode the same horse during his 30-years long career. He got Bucephalus as a kid and the horse died died towards the end of his career, so that's nearly twenty years. Btw, did Tolkien draw any inspiration for Eorl-Felarof from the story of Alexander-Bucephalus? Any references in HoME? -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <0dWzd.7683$Ar5.3804@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <1AHAd.910$1c.876@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:02:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1104364925 82.43.126.28 (Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:02:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:02:05 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166520 Michelle J. Haines wrote: > In article <0dWzd.7683$Ar5.3804@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, > jet@blueyonder.com.uk says... >> However *Faramir* does no such thing. > > No, but he was standing in the room letting it go on until Faramir > was softened up. I thought Gollum was the one with two personalities? :-) ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:54:41 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.202 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104403854 213.101.77.202 (Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:50:54 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:50:54 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166554 "Yuk Tang" skrev i meddelandet news:Xns95CE9F7E572FEjimlaker2yahoocom@130.133.1.4... [snip] > > Well... I regard Tolkien's books as works of fiction, and hence > > the author's opinions about the world and characters portrayed are > > rather important. > > Fair enough. My argument is just that Aragorn's hints shows that > 'nobility' was no barrier to treating captives with a certain amount > of roughness, and interpreting the euphemisms using RL rules. That > said, Aragorn, being the loner that he often was, may have been more > used to dishing out such treatment. As seen in the Council, Boromir > was used to 'honourable' open warfare, with its accompanying rules of > conduct, while Aragorn worked in a more undercover/underhand manner. I think people tend to overinterpret Aragrn's statement that he "was not gentle" to Gollum and that he hit him. I have always taken it to mean that Gollum was hissing and spitting and trying to bite him, and that Aragorn hit him one to make him stop it and behave. Remember how Sam and Frodo had to tie him up. (Gollum, that is, not Aragorn.) I am sure there was nothing like the torture of prisoners that those TV programmes advertising the SAS seem to glorify. Note also that when it turns out the Elves felt so bad about keeping Gollum a prisoner that they let him outdoors, even climbing a tree, every day, which made it possible for him to escape, Aragorn does not ask: "Are you guys out of your minds?" He accepts their gentleness. Though the comment by Glóin that the Elves were less gentle to him and his companions during their quest to Erebor is very much to the point. Hah! I bet the Elves hooded the dwarves and tried to scare them with dogs, only Tolkien did not see fit to mention it. Öjevind ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: <6cRAd.8310$Of5.5887@nntpserver.swip.net> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:03:01 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.202 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104404354 213.101.77.202 (Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:59:14 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:59:14 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166555 "Yuk Tang" skrev i meddelandet news:Xns95CEA0EDDC10Fjimlaker2yahoocom@130.133.1.4... [snip] > > Alexander was a drink-sodden, half-barbarian killer, and his Greek > > contemporaries regarded him as such. The glorification of him only > > started later. > > By the Successors, especially Ptolemy? I have to admit that my main > source is Arrian, and he draws from a pro-Alexander tradition. > > http://www.livius.org/arl-arz/arrian/arrian.htm Alexander's Greek contemporaries despised him and his vile father. After all, father and son were the ones who put an end to the freedom of the Greek city states, something that does not appear to interest Oliver Stone, for example; there is no mention at all of it in that awful film of his. But the glorification of him started even in antiquity; Plutarch, for example, mentions some fairly incriminating things about him (killing his childhood friend when drunk because the friend criticized the way he had started to demand being adored the way Oriental kings did; frequently sleeping it off until four in the afternoon; razing entire cities), but keeps trying to find excuses for him. Ptolemy was a half-barbarian from Macedon, like Alexander, so he probably saw nothing odd about his behaviour. Well, the drunken killing was probably regarded as a minor blemish. Alexander also set fire to Persepolis when drunk. What a guy. Öjevind ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <4fadnbSN1-x5ZE_cRVn-jg@comcast.com> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:18:07 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.202 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104405260 213.101.77.202 (Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:14:20 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:14:20 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166559 "Flame of the West" skrev i meddelandet news:4fadnbSN1-x5ZE_cRVn-jg@comcast.com... > Öjevind Lång wrote: > > > Alexander was a drink-sodden, half-barbarian killer, and his Greek > > contemporaries regarded him as such. > > Was his mother really the babe she was portrayed as > in the movie? I believe the sources do say Olympias was beautiful. Incidentally, she was the daughter of the King of Epirus, another northern hellenistic kingdom, and hence not the foreign barbarian Stone depicts her as. You could perhaps say that, like Philip, she was a northern half-barbarian. She is said to have been on very bad terms with Philip, and there were rumours even back then that the ugly Philip could not be the handsome Alexander's father, and that Olympias was responsible for his murder. But those were rumours, nothing more. Olympias was, according to the same sources, very annoyed by suggestions that Philip was not Alexander's father. She most certainly would not have traipsed around bragging about having foisted a cuckoo's offspring on Macedon; that would have been Alexander's ticket to Hades. Macedon (and to some extent Epirus) differed drastically from the civilized Greek states further south in several ways. There was their language, which was hardly accepted as Greek at all. There was their immoderate drinking, which disgusted the Greeks. There was the clan feuds, and the killing sprees attending every succcession to the Macedonian throne - what happened when Alexander became king was par for the course as far as Macedon was concerned. Öjevind ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <3sa6t0185m32nadmltlouu539rna25np7j@4ax.com> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:23:40 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.202 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104405593 213.101.77.202 (Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:19:53 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:19:53 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166561 "the softrat" skrev i meddelandet news:3sa6t0185m32nadmltlouu539rna25np7j@4ax.com... > On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:37:30 +0100, "Öjevind Lång" > wrote: > > > >Alexander was a drink-sodden, half-barbarian killer, and his Greek > >contemporaries regarded him as such. The glorification of him only started > >later. > > > Not a sweetie like Röd Orm? Come now - Röde Orm is not described as a sweetie. Neither is he described as killing a friend when drunk - though he does get into a fight with him when the friend is drunk; the Vikings tie the friend up, pour water on him and leave him to sleep it off. (Most of all, they want him to stop his vile singing about two little bear cubs.) Anyway, no one ever claimed that the Vikings spread the blessings of western civilzation everywhere. The Vikings did introduce the jury system, thoiugh. I bet they were also responsible for "habeas corpus", that is to say, "have his corpse". Öjevind ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: 30 Dec 2004 12:22:22 GMT Lines: 67 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> X-Trace: individual.net ecXk6Vx+LD7wA82ZLAQrRg6l/8uT7/O28aPZDfEkv05QG8a8PL User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166567 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in news:i4RAd.8308$Of5.5937@nntpserver.swip.net: > "Yuk Tang" skrev i meddelandet > news:Xns95CE9F7E572FEjimlaker2yahoocom@130.133.1.4... > > [snip] > >> > Well... I regard Tolkien's books as works of fiction, and hence >> > the author's opinions about the world and characters portrayed >> > are rather important. >> >> Fair enough. My argument is just that Aragorn's hints shows that >> 'nobility' was no barrier to treating captives with a certain >> amount of roughness, and interpreting the euphemisms using RL >> rules. That said, Aragorn, being the loner that he often was, >> may have been more used to dishing out such treatment. As seen >> in the Council, Boromir was used to 'honourable' open warfare, >> with its accompanying rules of conduct, while Aragorn worked in a >> more undercover/underhand manner. > > I think people tend to overinterpret Aragrn's statement that he > "was not gentle" to Gollum and that he hit him. I have always > taken it to mean that Gollum was hissing and spitting and trying > to bite him, and that Aragorn hit him one to make him stop it and > behave. I read it as a mixture of hitting him to stop Gollum's unpleasantness and feeling glad (at the time) about hitting him because he disliked him. One often leads into the other, and the rationalisation can go away until such a point where the abuser feels guilty about his actions. If Gollum behaved in the way we know he could behave, the cycle could begin all over again. Sam is an object example of how this works. > Remember how Sam and Frodo had to tie him up. (Gollum, > that is, not Aragorn.) I am sure there was nothing like the > torture of prisoners that those TV programmes advertising the SAS > seem to glorify. > > Note also that when it turns out the Elves felt so bad about > keeping > Gollum a prisoner that they let him outdoors, even climbing a > tree, every day, which made it possible for him to escape, Aragorn > does not ask: "Are you guys out of your minds?" He accepts their > gentleness. Does Sam rebuke Frodo for his gentleness towards Gollum? We see Sam's POV of the proceedings in TTT, and we see that he disapproves of his master's actions and attitude. We don't get the opportunity to see Aragorn's POV, so we can't presume his acceptance. He may have done, but it's arguable either way. > Though the comment by Glóin that the Elves were less > gentle to him and his companions during their quest to Erebor is > very much to the point. > Hah! I bet the Elves hooded the dwarves and tried to scare them > with dogs, > only Tolkien did not see fit to mention it. You should have seen the photos they'd taken. I never knew you could do that with apples. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: 30 Dec 2004 12:24:13 GMT Lines: 72 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <6cRAd.8310$Of5.5887@nntpserver.swip.net> X-Trace: individual.net YEIFTSYw7slXbGt0Q5tilw96jD7+hbxa57cEDmiadzINdiNN6Z User-Agent: Xnews/L5 X-No-Archive: yes Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166568 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in news:6cRAd.8310$Of5.5887@nntpserver.swip.net: > "Yuk Tang" skrev i meddelandet > news:Xns95CEA0EDDC10Fjimlaker2yahoocom@130.133.1.4... > > [snip] > >> > Alexander was a drink-sodden, half-barbarian killer, and his >> > Greek contemporaries regarded him as such. The glorification of >> > him only started later. >> >> By the Successors, especially Ptolemy? I have to admit that my >> main source is Arrian, and he draws from a pro-Alexander >> tradition. >> >> http://www.livius.org/arl-arz/arrian/arrian.htm > > Alexander's Greek contemporaries despised him and his vile father. > After all, father and son were the ones who put an end to the > freedom of the Greek city states, something that does not appear > to interest Oliver Stone, for example; there is no mention at all > of it in that awful film of his. But the glorification of him > started even in antiquity; Plutarch, for example, mentions some > fairly incriminating things about him (killing his childhood > friend when drunk because the friend criticized the way he had > started to demand being adored the way Oriental kings did; And yet Leonnatus got back into his good books, even before the Mallian incident. Was Cletus or Leonnatus the more representative example of how he treated people who'd upset him? > frequently sleeping it off until four in the afternoon; razing > entire cities), but keeps trying to find excuses for him. > Ptolemy was a half-barbarian from Macedon, like Alexander, so he > probably > saw nothing odd about his behaviour. Well, the drunken killing was > probably regarded as a minor blemish. > Alexander also set fire to Persepolis when drunk. What a guy. I was going to say that the Macedonian treatment of the defeated Greek cities was unusual for the time, but John Keegan has made me think again. Sparta's enslavement of the Messenes was fairly far out, but Epaminondas' liberation of the same was also off the scale in relation to the norm. So where did the continuing autonomy (in self-affairs) allowed by the Macedonians fall in the overall picture? Was it unusually lenient, or was it expected? Were any other states ever powerful enough to have the option of putting others under the yoke, but refrained as Philip did? The story of Athens and Sparta suggests that Philip's leniency was not the norm. Then there were Alexander's efforts to Persianise himself and the Macedonians. This would have fitted the definition of 'barbarity' at the time, but our changed POV would regard them as worthy, even admirable. Was supplication a demand that he should be worshipped as a living god? Or was it a political necessity to demonstrate that neither Greek nor Persian would be different in the eyes of the Great King? The real answer may be a mixture of both, that a tendency towards one may have inclined him to take action based on the other; cf. Polybius' assessment of Scipio Africanus' belief in his divinity. Based on what I've read about the period, Philip and Alexander were notably generous to their defeated enemies. But despite that, they occasionally indulged in some pretty nasty stuff. As for being drunken and disorderly; barring ascetic peoples like the Spartans and the Romans, things like that happened as a matter of course, and were usually accepted as such (unless the accuser was already looking for things to fault the subject on). -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <6cRAd.8310$Of5.5887@nntpserver.swip.net> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 24 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:20:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1104412834 82.43.126.28 (Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:20:34 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:20:34 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166570 Yuk Tang wrote: > Then there were Alexander's efforts to Persianise himself and the > Macedonians. Was this his idea? It doesn't fit the idea of a drunken barbarian, but more the strategic goal of a long-term strategist. Is there any hint at the personal intellect of Alexander and Philip? Were they more than drunken barbarians and (at least in Alexander's case) brilliant generals? Or did some of the policies result from the actions of a surrounding clique of attendants or layer of bureaucracy? Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: 30 Dec 2004 13:57:41 GMT Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <6cRAd.8310$Of5.5887@nntpserver.swip.net> X-Trace: individual.net RdTu5RWLLUb7zp5ZvfQOzANNdh3DZip3d+PHsZKWRRLJIrgico User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166578 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in news:CgTAd.181$4r5.132@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk: > Yuk Tang wrote: > > > >> Then there were Alexander's efforts to Persianise himself and the >> Macedonians. > > Was this his idea? It doesn't fit the idea of a drunken barbarian, > but more the strategic goal of a long-term strategist. Is there > any hint at the personal intellect of Alexander and Philip? Were > they more than drunken barbarians and (at least in Alexander's > case) brilliant generals? Philip's career seems to have aimed at establishing himself as the head of the Greeks. He was opposed by the Greeks, who regarded him as a barbarian; imagine if a Turk tried to make Turkey the epitome of all things European. Alexander organised numerous displays of Persian and Graeco-Macedonian bonds. That was one of the things I was wondering about in my earlier post. Did Philip and Alexander show mercy to the defeated because they were 'civilised' by our standards, or did they use it for political expediency? Where is the divide between the two, if any? > Or did some of the policies result from the actions of a > surrounding clique of attendants or layer of bureaucracy? The sources suggest that Philip and Alexander were quite headstrong, able to formulate strategies on their own, unwilling to take advice where it conflicted with 'their' aims. I'd say that they were already inclined towards integration, gathered friends and followers who were of similar mind, and asked the bureaucracy for advice on how to bring it about. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:08:59 -0800 Organization: None to Speak Of Message-ID: <4999t0l46lbgdagk59tt7tik1qvelmeovh@4ax.com> References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <3sa6t0185m32nadmltlouu539rna25np7j@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in.ntli.net!newsrout1-win.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166605 On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:23:40 +0100, "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > The Vikings did introduce the jury system, thoiugh. I bet they were also >responsible for "habeas corpus", that is to say, "have his corpse". That is NOT what 'habeas corpus' says or means.... YOU should know better. *I* would translate it as (and my Latin is not very good) "You may have a body.", and the 'body' referred to is a 'body of evidence'. 'corpse' is some witticism about 'necros'. (...as in 'necrophilia'...) the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Alas, usenet is where one will often see crowds of people jumping up and down on the greasy smear on the pavement that used to be a dead horse. --Nyrath the Nearly Wise ###### From: Chris Applegate Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:38:54 -0500 Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH, USA Lines: 12 Sender: cxa25@bgp958917bgs.derbrh01.mi.comcast.net Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bgp958917bgs.derbrh01.mi.comcast.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: eeyore.INS.cwru.edu 1104471535 19947 68.41.122.213 (31 Dec 2004 05:38:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@po.cwru.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Dec 2004 05:38:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-User: cxa25@bgp958917bgs.derbrh01.mi.comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling.newsfeeds.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!usenet.INS.cwru.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166621 Rhino 7 wrote: > How about Gandalf *lying* to Pippin about what to expect the afterlife > to look like? (Even if it's only a 'white lie' to make him feel > better?) Since when to man-like creatures go to Valinor after death? Mortals go to/over/through Aman as they exit the world. At least, they did in the First Age; that's how Beren and Luthien were reunited. Except for Gandalf's vague and ambiguous description of his after-death experience, we don't really know what happens to dead mortals in the post-Atalante world. CDA ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:09:47 -0600 From: Rhino 7 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:09:42 -0800 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 2.0/32.646 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.168.117.69 X-Trace: sv3-oCH8TeGf9yhubEZCr8BQ4CKpGfSQTdStC2fXYZEN1hfQM2VirsN9LoAE+JZc7UbgB34HEuZzMhZyWTa!Tl/+oynQvMVYgyWahiVvZsg+hMpRcBSjC3J4XifkEfmLif5YqXUkLaLp62edeVlQy3jiyQVH X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed7!newsfeed.cwix.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166626 On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:38:54 -0500, Chris Applegate wrote: >Rhino 7 wrote: >> How about Gandalf *lying* to Pippin about what to expect the afterlife >> to look like? (Even if it's only a 'white lie' to make him feel >> better?) Since when to man-like creatures go to Valinor after death? > >Mortals go to/over/through Aman as they exit the world. At least, they >did in the First Age; that's how Beren and Luthien were reunited. Except >for Gandalf's vague and ambiguous description of his after-death >experience, we don't really know what happens to dead mortals in the >post-Atalante world. > >CDA Which is exactly my point. Gandalf didn't know what Pippin's post-life journey would look like - so why pretend that he did? And if PJ and company wanted to use the grey rain curtain description .... let's see it!! This is a *m*o*v*i*e* ... you *s*h*o*w* things. "I wanted to see the shores of Valinor - maybe even a glimpse of Tirion!! Boo Hoo Hoo" Rhino7 ###### From: TT Arvind Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 13:01:43 -0000 Organization: Ents for the Great Teuncitarian Revolution Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> X-Trace: individual.net W0/HOzkeRDB3N7l7thizSgBuIcdZHxfepfM79GvIAqSvhTJcV2 X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-News-Feed: Purina(TM) Dried Posts X-Ray-Glasses: Activated X-Files: Is a stupid waste of time Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166637 Wes ðu Öjevind Lång hal! > I am sure there was nothing like the torture of prisoners that > those TV programmes advertising the SAS seem to glorify. I agree that SAS' inflight service has been getting worse, but aren't you being a little harsh? -- Arvind ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:18:46 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.76.42 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104506097 213.101.76.42 (Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:14:57 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:14:57 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166643 "TT Arvind" skrev i meddelandet news:MPG.1c3f5e05f001401f989d85@news.individual.net... > Wes ðu Öjevind Lång hal! > > I am sure there was nothing like the torture of prisoners that > > those TV programmes advertising the SAS seem to glorify. > > I agree that SAS' inflight service has been getting worse, but aren't > you being a little harsh? Heh. Öjevind ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <3sa6t0185m32nadmltlouu539rna25np7j@4ax.com> <4999t0l46lbgdagk59tt7tik1qvelmeovh@4ax.com> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:20:32 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.76.42 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104506202 213.101.76.42 (Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:16:42 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:16:42 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166644 "the softrat" skrev i meddelandet news:4999t0l46lbgdagk59tt7tik1qvelmeovh@4ax.com... > On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:23:40 +0100, "Öjevind Lång" > wrote: > > > The Vikings did introduce the jury system, thoiugh. I bet they were also > >responsible for "habeas corpus", that is to say, "have his corpse". > > That is NOT what 'habeas corpus' says or means.... > > YOU should know better. Oh, really? ;-) > *I* would translate it as (and my Latin is not very good) "You may > have a body.", and the 'body' referred to is a 'body of evidence'. > 'corpse' is some witticism about 'necros'. > > (...as in 'necrophilia'...) Ah, so. No, necrophiliacs the Vikings were not. Öjevind ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: 31 Dec 2004 18:04:27 GMT Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <3sa6t0185m32nadmltlouu539rna25np7j@4ax.com> <4999t0l46lbgdagk59tt7tik1qvelmeovh@4ax.com> X-Trace: individual.net kUe7i3lM/iCXuHeZgfi25wD5iAAhPH8BjMGfSAn8HsydXp414S User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166652 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in news:u3eBd.8788$Of5.6056@nntpserver.swip.net: > > Ah, so. No, necrophiliacs the Vikings were not. They enjoyed making dead people. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: "robert j. kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <3sa6t0185m32nadmltlouu539rna25np7j@4ax.com> <4999t0l46lbgdagk59tt7tik1qvelmeovh@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6CgBd.594708$wV.103254@attbi_s54> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s54 1104516610 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 31 Dec 2004 18:10:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 18:10:10 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 18:10:11 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!surfnet.nl!feeder.enertel.nl!nntpfeed-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s54.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166653 Yuk Tang wrote: > "Öjevind Lång" wrote in > news:u3eBd.8788$Of5.6056@nntpserver.swip.net: >>Ah, so. No, necrophiliacs the Vikings were not. > They enjoyed making dead people. You man they enjoyed making people dead. The Vikings had names like Blood-Axe and Skull Hammer. Bob Kolker > ###### From: Michele Fry Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 09:30:51 +0000 Organization: sass Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: sassoonery.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1104573082 9047 212.228.13.129 (1 Jan 2005 09:51:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 09:51:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 S Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!peer-uk.news.demon.net!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!sassoonery.demon.co.uk!michele Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166694 In article , Öjevind Lång writes >I think people tend to overinterpret Aragrn's statement that he "was not >gentle" to Gollum and that he hit him. I have always taken it to mean that >Gollum was hissing and spitting and trying to bite him, and that Aragorn hit >him one to make him stop it and behave. I think that maybe you are also over-interpreting here. It is perfectly possible to be ungentle with someone without actually hitting them: holding someone's arm too tightly for them to pull away, or simply shoving them about would be ungentle, but neither of these involves actual hitting in any way... Michele == "A book is not only a friend, it makes friends for you. When you have possessed a book with mind and spirit, you are enriched. But when you pass it on you are enriched threefold." - Henry Miller 'The Books In My Life' (1969) == Now reading: Spindle's End - Robin McKinley == Commit random acts of literacy! Read & Release at Bookcrossing: http://www.bookcrossing.com/friend/Sass-80 ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <1CVzd.7664$Ar5.5878@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Lines: 49 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 11:20:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1104578458 82.43.126.28 (Sat, 01 Jan 2005 11:20:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 11:20:58 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166696 Michele Fry wrote: > In article , Öjevind Lång > writes > >> I think people tend to overinterpret Aragrn's statement that he "was >> not gentle" to Gollum and that he hit him. I have always taken it to >> mean that Gollum was hissing and spitting and trying to bite him, >> and that Aragorn hit him one to make him stop it and behave. > > I think that maybe you are also over-interpreting here. It is > perfectly possible to be ungentle with someone without actually > hitting them: holding someone's arm too tightly for them to pull > away, or simply shoving them about would be ungentle, but neither of > these involves actual hitting in any way... I actually thought he [Aragorn] was referring to this bit: "...watching him day and night, making him walk before me with a halter on his neck, gagged, until he was tamed by lack of drink and food..." But I see that the context of "not gentle" refers to the _actual_ biting of Aragorn by Gollum (not attempted biting): "He will never love me, I fear; for he bit me, and I was not gentle." I can guess that the instinctive reaction to being bitten (at least by an animal) is to pull your hand or whatever away. Not sure if it would always be an instinctive reaction to hit the biter: maybe it would be if they hadn't let go yet! And I guess it would have to be more than just Aragorn restraining him to have Gollum hate Aragorn. Though the hate may have resulted from the gagging and use of a halter, the implication for me is that Aragorn's immediate reaction to being bitten was to be so "ungentle" that Gollum feared and hated him ever after. Though there is also my theory that Gollum reacted the way he did to the Elven rope that Frodo and Sam tried to use, partly because it was Elven, and partly because he feared being treated the way Aragorn treated him: gagged, rope around neck, starved into submission. This contrasts greatly with the kindness shown to him by Frodo, and that, I think, is the real point here. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: Chris Applegate Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 10:48:52 -0500 Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH, USA Lines: 26 Sender: cxa25@bgp958917bgs.derbrh01.mi.comcast.net Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bgp958917bgs.derbrh01.mi.comcast.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: eeyore.INS.cwru.edu 1104594536 18617 68.41.122.213 (1 Jan 2005 15:48:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@po.cwru.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jan 2005 15:48:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-User: cxa25@bgp958917bgs.derbrh01.mi.comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!usenet.INS.cwru.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166701 Rhino 7 wrote: > Which is exactly my point. Gandalf didn't know what Pippin's > post-life journey would look like - so why pretend that he did? Gandalf had existed in Aman up until ca. TA 1000. If dead mortals continued to pass through Aman on their way beyond, he would be aware of it. If they instead left Arda directly, no sight-seeing at Mandos, he would be aware of that. We don't know what Pippin's post-mortem journey would be, but Gandalf does -- at least up until Pippin exits the Valarin area of responsibility. > And if PJ and company wanted to use the grey rain curtain description > .... let's see it!! This is a *m*o*v*i*e* ... you *s*h*o*w* things. Offhand, I can't think of any place such footage could be inserted. It would be a shame to replace the footage of Gandalf comforting Pippin with a short SFX shot of a boat drifting towards an island. Maybe a dream sequence in Lorien, just before the Mirror? > "I wanted to see the shores of Valinor - maybe even > a glimpse of Tirion!! Boo Hoo Hoo" Guy named Ar-Pharazon is planning a trip.... CDA ###### From: Anthony Bryant User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, ja, ru, ar, zh, zh-tw, el MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <3sa6t0185m32nadmltlouu539rna25np7j@4ax.com> <4999t0l46lbgdagk59tt7tik1qvelmeovh@4ax.com> <6CgBd.594708$wV.103254@attbi_s54> In-Reply-To: <6CgBd.594708$wV.103254@attbi_s54> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5qBBd.605$OA6.309305@newshog.newsread.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 17:50:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.106.73.53 X-Complaints-To: Abuse Role , We Care X-Trace: newshog.newsread.com 1104601857 206.106.73.53 (Sat, 01 Jan 2005 12:50:57 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 12:50:57 EST Organization: HoosierNet (hoosier.net) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsread.com!newsstand.newsread.com!POSTED.newshog.newsread.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166708 robert j. kolker wrote: > The Vikings had names like Blood-Axe and Skull Hammer. They also had nicknames like "blue-tooth" "Lucky" and "Bare-legs." The vikings were a crazy bunch. Tony -- Anthony J. Bryant Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff): http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel: http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder ###### From: "robert j. kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <3sa6t0185m32nadmltlouu539rna25np7j@4ax.com> <4999t0l46lbgdagk59tt7tik1qvelmeovh@4ax.com> <6CgBd.594708$wV.103254@attbi_s54> <5qBBd.605$OA6.309305@newshog.newsread.com> In-Reply-To: <5qBBd.605$OA6.309305@newshog.newsread.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s02 1104606923 24.62.143.251 (Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:15:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:15:23 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:15:23 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wns14feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s02.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166711 Anthony Bryant wrote: > They also had nicknames like "blue-tooth" "Lucky" and "Bare-legs." > The vikings were a crazy bunch. What's in yerrrr wallet? Bob Kolker ###### From: Anthony Bryant User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, ja, ru, ar, zh, zh-tw, el MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <3sa6t0185m32nadmltlouu539rna25np7j@4ax.com> <4999t0l46lbgdagk59tt7tik1qvelmeovh@4ax.com> <6CgBd.594708$wV.103254@attbi_s54> <5qBBd.605$OA6.309305@newshog.newsread.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 17:20:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.106.73.45 X-Complaints-To: Abuse Role , We Care X-Trace: newshog.newsread.com 1104686413 206.106.73.45 (Sun, 02 Jan 2005 12:20:13 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 12:20:13 EST Organization: HoosierNet (hoosier.net) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out2.kabelfoon.nl!83.128.0.10.MISMATCH!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!newsread.com!newsstand.newsread.com!POSTED.newshog.newsread.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166793 robert j. kolker wrote: > Anthony Bryant wrote: > >> They also had nicknames like "blue-tooth" "Lucky" and "Bare-legs." >> >> The vikings were a crazy bunch. > What's in yerrrr wallet? Arrrrrr! Tony -- Anthony J. Bryant Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff): http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel: http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 13:54:02 -0600 From: Rhino 7 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 11:54:00 -0800 Message-ID: References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 2.0/32.646 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.168.117.69 X-Trace: sv3-c5VxYwT1EvnqbgWbrWVQwX/i5Hk0bblv6EO+gWI15R8sb1uLHozTaTccqfVhmEgy+PlrQunpgkEV1x3!eaceBwE1HoVJ+rQBkqa5ahFL3skoqo6aWpIq0HiRtt+3KM8W+50mYtyOIvb9goVF8eREZO4V X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166804 >Offhand, I can't think of any place such footage could be inserted. It >would be a shame to replace the footage of Gandalf comforting Pippin >with a short SFX shot of a boat drifting towards an island. Maybe a >dream sequence in Lorien, just before the Mirror? How about Gandalf and Frodo at the rail of the ship as the shores come into view placed at the end of the credits? >> "I wanted to see the shores of Valinor - maybe even >> a glimpse of Tirion!! Boo Hoo Hoo" > >Guy named Ar-Pharazon is planning a trip.... > >CDA :-P phhhhhhhhhhhhht Rhino7 ###### From: Jens Kilian Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: EE RotK: Gandalf the Practical Date: 10 Jan 2005 22:35:16 +0100 Organization: 1&1 Internet AG Lines: 12 Sender: jjk@gondolin Message-ID: <87hdlparxn.fsf@gondolin.bb.bawue.de> References: <1103776102_636@corp.com> <10sui4riiugsid8@corp.supernews.com> <3sa6t0185m32nadmltlouu539rna25np7j@4ax.com> <4999t0l46lbgdagk59tt7tik1qvelmeovh@4ax.com> <6CgBd.594708$wV.103254@attbi_s54> NNTP-Posting-Host: p54a0ae6b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: online.de 1105392918 6331 84.160.174.107 (10 Jan 2005 21:35:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@einsundeins.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:35:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Bot-Bait: Bait User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!blackbush.cw.net!cw.net!feed.news.schlund.de!schlund.de!news.online.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:167443 "robert j. kolker" writes: > The Vikings had names like Blood-Axe and Skull Hammer. "No-one knows why dwarfs, who at home in the mountains lead quiet, orderly lives, forget it all when they move to the big city. Something comes over even the most blameless iron-ore miner and prompts him to wear chain-mail all the time, carry an axe, change his name to something like Grabthroat Shinkicker and drink himself into surly oblivion." - Terry Pratchett, _Guards! Guards!_ -- mailto:jjk@acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish, http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]