NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 23:37:03 -0600 From: "Christopher Fiore" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Lord Frodo? Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:37:03 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.2.243.39 X-Trace: sv3-4HTlPyfwhVzOHGSRLuXhXcaTFV2N34Z/x5yeKeybNOQaLfm7AGMng+l7p/8dnn86PptvFFpujV1XEFP!RqCb+MQ6XfQZdpr+STKPshnhGF6jNeh93tgSOKtgp9OuiT1wRF+8B8HxfqE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165985 Galadriel with the Ring would be cause for despair, if Gandalf had it, he would be "too terrible to imagine," but what about Frodo? Just how powerful would Frodo have become, if Gollum hadn't taken the Ring from him at Mount Doom? Could Frodo have become another Dark Lord? ###### Message-ID: <41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 07:22:26 -0500 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.35 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1103631733 7084 207.199.164.35 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165997 Christopher Fiore wrote: > > Galadriel with the Ring would be cause for despair, if Gandalf had it, he > would be "too terrible to imagine," but what about Frodo? Just how powerful > would Frodo have become, if Gollum hadn't taken the Ring from him at Mount > Doom? Could Frodo have become another Dark Lord? Given Sauron's presence, no. Tolkien makes it clear that Sauron would have overcome Frodo and retrieved the ring. If Sauron is not in the picture, so that Frodo has as long as he wants to learn and master the Ring, there are a couple of options. The Ring is evil, and has already corrupted Frodo. Ultimately that will continue, and Frodo becomes an evil Lord. The crushing effect of the Ring might lead to Frodo physically degenerating as Gollum did. Personally, I think it's more likely that Frodo will remain physically intact, but his native personality will decline. The Ring treats him as the best available alternative to Sauron. Frodo ends up something like the Witch King. He uses the Ring's power of dominance to eventually win over many of the armies that might come against him. Even Sauron at his greatest power did not exercise absolute dominance over wills. The Wise and some steadfast pockets of resistance remain hidden, waiting for an opportunity to oppose the new Dark Lord. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: "Mike P." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org> Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:27:11 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Lines: 76 Message-ID: <41c840d2$0$4537$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 211.28.139.241 X-Trace: 1103642834 4537 211.28.139.241 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.tesion.net!news.space.net!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news1.optus.net.au!optus!newsfeeder.syd.optusnet.com.au!news.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166007 "Glenn Holliday" wrote in message news:41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org... > Christopher Fiore wrote: > > > > Galadriel with the Ring would be cause for despair, if Gandalf had it, he > > would be "too terrible to imagine," but what about Frodo? Just how powerful > > would Frodo have become, if Gollum hadn't taken the Ring from him at Mount > > Doom? Could Frodo have become another Dark Lord? > > Given Sauron's presence, no. Tolkien makes it clear that Sauron > would have overcome Frodo and retrieved the ring. > > If Sauron is not in the picture, so that Frodo has as long as he > wants to learn and master the Ring, there are a couple of options. > The Ring is evil, and has already corrupted Frodo. Ultimately > that will continue, and Frodo becomes an evil Lord. The crushing > effect of the Ring might lead to Frodo physically degenerating > as Gollum did. > > Personally, I think it's more likely that Frodo will remain > physically intact, but his native personality will decline. > The Ring treats him as the best available alternative to > Sauron. Frodo ends up something like the Witch King. He > uses the Ring's power of dominance to eventually win over many > of the armies that might come against him. > > Even Sauron at his greatest power did not exercise absolute > dominance over wills. The Wise and some steadfast pockets > of resistance remain hidden, waiting for an opportunity to > oppose the new Dark Lord. > Wasn't the ring supposed to give power according to your stature (I don't mean physical height). For a Gondorian military man like Boromir it would give him the power to control his army and sweep everything before him. To Noldo like Galadriel, or to someone like Gandalf or Saruman the ring would give them unparalleled power and dominion over others. As for hobbits, the ring imparted power corresponding to the power a hobbit might imagine - it prolonged your life and made you invisible - that's a lot of power for a Hobbit or someone like Smeagol. At the very most, the ring would turn Frodo into an evil tyrrant of the Shire. If you think about Gollum under the Misty Mountains had all the power he could imagine. He was lord of his little lake in the mountains, eating what he wanted, and had power to evade and kill his enemies (i.e. the orcs). The ring had made Gollum a lord of a small region, used him up, prolonged his life and did what it could with him until it betrayed him. From a certain point of view, giving the ring to a hobbit is a waste of it's potential power. Sauron was probably the only "person" who could realise it's full potential. But I'm sure Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel and Elrond would probably make effective use of it's power (although probably not as much as Sauron could). Then you had guys like Aragorn and Boromir who could probably wield the ring to devastating effect in battle. I think in the long run if Frodo kept the ring he probably would have turned into a variant of Gollum. Even Gollum didn't have the ring long enough for it to turn him into a wraith. I just don't see Frodo commanding or fighting armies with the ring. It's not the type of power the ring imparts to someone like a Hobbit. Sauron's greatest fear was that someone would come openly against him using the ring in battle (someone like Aragorn). Hobbits (with or without the ring) didn't pose a threat, because after all it didn't cross his mind that they would destroy it. Just my thoughts... Mike ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: 21 Dec 2004 17:28:15 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net Gqb85zUYURpFZpPHfUgmuAab0Qewct1CoNokUjjZMqr8bTPBzx User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166015 On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:37:03 -0500, Christopher Fiore wrote: > Galadriel with the Ring would be cause for despair, if Gandalf had it, he > would be "too terrible to imagine," but what about Frodo? Just how powerful > would Frodo have become, if Gollum hadn't taken the Ring from him at Mount > Doom? Could Frodo have become another Dark Lord? No. He simply wasn't a powerful enough individual. Tolkien makes pretty clear that if Frodo had managed to claim the Ring at Sammath Naur, the Nazgul would have been all nicy-nicy until Sauron came, and that would be that. Only someone of far greater power, Gandalf, Galadriel, Saruman and maybe Elrond, could hope to master the Ring and defeat Sauron. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: 21 Dec 2004 17:41:04 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org> <41c840d2$0$4537$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net UeElJzPnhFX0ZmpzE4RXDg1MTaMgH5P10IcQWFzYpC2GtXbOyb User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166016 On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:27:11 +1100, Mike P. wrote: > > > Sauron's greatest fear was that someone would come openly against him using > the ring in battle (someone like Aragorn). Hobbits (with or without the > ring) didn't pose a threat, because after all it didn't cross his mind that > they would destroy it. I agree completely. Gandalf made it very clear that the Ring gives power according to stature (I suspect that this is true of all the Rings of Power). While I think Frodo was, relative to Gollum, a far greater person and thus would have been imparted with more power, he simply would not have had the capacity of someone like Aragorn, though I think Galadriel hints that Frodo might be able to master the Ring to some degree (and cautioned him against it). Remember that, particularly after the Morgul wound, Frodo is enhanced in some way that Gandalf recognizes, and Sam sees briefly in Ithilien, so I think he would have ended up somewhat mightier than Gollum. It must be reminded, however, that Tolkien states that a direct confrontation was not envisioned (this was in reference to Gandalf, but, I'm sure, applies to anyone claiming the Ring). It's quite likely, in my view, that someone like Aragorn, Denethor or even Boromir could have mastered the Ring sufficiently to master his own armies and drive the enemy's to despair. Sauron would not be felled, as they do not have the might to claim it to such an extent. Sauron would, however, probably be driven away from the center of power. Certainly not even Sauron could march through vast armies dominated by Aragorn the Ring-lord. In the end, of course, Aragorn would have faded, and I guess would have become a sort of an Uber-Witch King, with the benefit that he isn't enslaved to Sauron's will. The situation is different if the new Ringlord is someone of far greater power; Gandalf, Galadriel or Saruman (I think Elrond and Glorifindel would probably fit into this category as well, and maybe even the Balrog). They are of the greatest stature of the dwellers of Middle Earth, and with the Ring, that would probably push them over the top. They could throw down Sauron utterly, so that for him it would be like the Ring being destroyed. My hunch on this is that the rapport between Sauron and the Ring, which had existed even during the long years that it ws lost, would be broken. I think that's what Tolkien was getting at in the letter in question, that for Sauron that power would be rendered permanently unaccessible, but that only someone of great power already, like Gandalf, could hope to master the Ring sufficiently to do that. Of course, for the unlucky dwellers of Middle Earth, it probably wouldn't make a difference. Whether the Ringlord is Aragorn or Denethor, or somebody even mightier like Gandalf or Galadriel, they would end up suffering, because the Ring would corrupt the Ringlord to evil. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: rdwillia@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Richard Williams) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:21:19 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BIOSCI/MRC Rosalind Franklin Centre for Genomics Research Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org> <41c840d2$0$4537$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: bromine.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk X-Trace: helium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk 1103660479 1103 193.62.192.35 (21 Dec 2004 20:21:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@net.bio.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:21:19 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!feeder.news.heanet.ie!feed4.jnfs.ja.net!feed2.jnfs.ja.net!jnfs.ja.net!rfcgr.mrc.ac.uk!rdwillia Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166026 In article , AC wrote: >dominated by Aragorn the Ring-lord. In the end, of course, Aragorn would >have faded, and I guess would have become a sort of an Uber-Witch King, with >the benefit that he isn't enslaved to Sauron's will. I wonder about that. Is it possible to be a wraith, enslaved by the Ring but not by Sauron, or does complete fading lead to eventual domination by Sauron even though he does not hold the Ring? If the latter, I guess Sauron just has to run away, hide and play a waiting game if any mortal becomes the Ringlord! Of course Gollum ended up enslaved by the Ring and not by Sauron (it's implied that Frodo as the current Ringbearer could command him, whereas Sauron had to apply torture), but then he never actually faded. Richard. ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: 21 Dec 2004 21:11:50 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org> <41c840d2$0$4537$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net j66Fn0SmqTAS1KhFw/7RrQmM0oyk9D16tvSeIs5rrRq4fgV76u User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166032 On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:21:19 +0000 (UTC), Richard Williams wrote: > In article , > AC wrote: > >>dominated by Aragorn the Ring-lord. In the end, of course, Aragorn would >>have faded, and I guess would have become a sort of an Uber-Witch King, with >>the benefit that he isn't enslaved to Sauron's will. > > I wonder about that. Is it possible to be a wraith, enslaved by the Ring > but not by Sauron, or does complete fading lead to eventual domination by > Sauron even though he does not hold the Ring? If the latter, I guess > Sauron just has to run away, hide and play a waiting game if any mortal > becomes the Ringlord! Of course Gollum ended up enslaved by the Ring and > not by Sauron (it's implied that Frodo as the current Ringbearer could > command him, whereas Sauron had to apply torture), but then he never > actually faded. My feeling on this is that the Nazgul were chained to Sauron's will because Sauron held the Nine. If that is the case, then Sauron would not dominate the will of a mortal like Aragorn if he held the Ring. Of course, if Sauron managed to get the Ring after that, then Aragorn's out of luck anyways. This is all my opinion, of course. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:35:48 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166049 "Christopher Fiore" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Galadriel with the Ring would be cause for despair, if Gandalf had it, he >would be "too terrible to imagine," but what about Frodo? Just how powerful >would Frodo have become, if Gollum hadn't taken the Ring from him at Mount >Doom? Could Frodo have become another Dark Lord? Tolkien addresses this in /Letters/, and you'll find a summary in the FAQ of the Rings. Basically, if Frodo had not been intercepted by Gollum the Nazgûl would have distracted him until Sauron came, at which point Frodo would have turned the Ring over. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:19:17 -0600 From: R. Dan Henry Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:19:21 -0800 Message-ID: <5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com> References: <41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org> <41c840d2$0$4537$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.25.51.126 X-Trace: sv3-dGCi+6i9H86b2K+KMVO2dLeXn6APpIzde5AtvVnarbfeuimRcSsgRJ4u+io0B+H4nfINOuzSlxun2kl!F9mov/szwvIYhQWOuJmRP8Wo02f3PNpjP+G+U38lELBmRNKJ1GsOvDys3XFhHieK/yigAA0G8trV!wFGOn8alUTQ/YfQ+vbslu4s= X-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.inreach.com!news.inreach.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166092 On 21 Dec 2004 21:11:50 GMT, AC wrote: >My feeling on this is that the Nazgul were chained to Sauron's will because >Sauron held the Nine. Do you think Sauron was actually wearing the Nine? If so, it's interesting to note that he had a one-to-one match with his fingers. Okay, maybe not *that* interesting. R. Dan Henry danhenry@inreach.com ###### From: rdwillia@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Richard Williams) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:41:26 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BIOSCI/MRC Rosalind Franklin Centre for Genomics Research Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bromine.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk X-Trace: helium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk 1103748086 28200 193.62.192.35 (22 Dec 2004 20:41:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@net.bio.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:41:26 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!easynet-monga!easynet.net!feed4.jnfs.ja.net!feed2.jnfs.ja.net!jnfs.ja.net!rfcgr.mrc.ac.uk!rdwillia Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166094 In article <5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com>, R. Dan Henry wrote: >On 21 Dec 2004 21:11:50 GMT, AC wrote: > >>My feeling on this is that the Nazgul were chained to Sauron's will because >>Sauron held the Nine. > >Do you think Sauron was actually wearing the Nine? If so, it's >interesting to note that he had a one-to-one match with his fingers. Which raises the question of what he'd have done if he'd recovered the One. Wearing _two_ Rings of Power on one finger seems like, well, overdoing the bling a bit. Perhaps he could have had a pair of them converted to earRings..? Richard. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:35:55 -0600 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:35:55 -0800 From: Chris Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041208 Thunderbird/1.0 - [MOOX M3] Mnenhy/0.7 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? References: <5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.238.252 X-Trace: sv3-oa0LztW13yn9SFlpaEdYijm2v5ynWtp6pFiRdaDkpe1HW9pIJoSU96N/wvERVJcCo7DEZ20Y2FHBRe/!JSlGG3xY5JUbfsRLZ5XuWM+/yjEgIKDL7a7JRFnyrT6YHAnz711tH6LT0X0+0XI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166108 Richard Williams wrote: > In article <5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com>, > R. Dan Henry wrote: > >>On 21 Dec 2004 21:11:50 GMT, AC wrote: >> >> >>>My feeling on this is that the Nazgul were chained to Sauron's will because >>>Sauron held the Nine. >> >>Do you think Sauron was actually wearing the Nine? If so, it's >>interesting to note that he had a one-to-one match with his fingers. > Which raises the question of what he'd have done if he'd recovered > the One. Wearing _two_ Rings of Power on one finger seems like, > well, overdoing the bling a bit. Perhaps he could have had a pair of > them converted to earRings..? This is sounding more and more like a Green Lantern comic. "OMG, but what if Hal Jordan had TWO rings? Wouldn't he be awesome then?" ###### From: "Gregg Cattanach" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.44.85.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr17.news.prodigy.com 1103817249 ST000 12.44.85.20 (Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:54:09 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:54:09 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: Q[R_@SZEVJV[C\LY@JKBORTDEZXXPGLLEXRZKB]MPXH@ETUCCNSKQFCY@TXDX_WHSVB]ZEJLSNY\^J[CUVSA_QLFC^RQHUPH[P[NRWCCMLSNPOD_ESALHUK@TDFUZHBLJ\XGKL^NXA\EVHSP[D_C^B_^JCX^W]CHBAX]POG@SSAZQ\LE[DCNMUPG_VSC@VJM Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:54:09 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr17.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!9c9da953!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166191 Richard Williams wrote: had a one-to-one match with his fingers. > > Which raises the question of what he'd have done if he'd recovered the > One. Wearing _two_ Rings of Power on one finger seems like, well, > overdoing the bling a bit. Perhaps he could have had a pair of them > converted to earRings..? He's the Dark Lord, he can wear whatever bling-bling he wants! ###### From: "Mike P." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org> <41c840d2$0$4537$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:34:21 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Lines: 39 Message-ID: <41cb0fb1$0$4536$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 211.28.139.241 X-Trace: 1103826865 4536 211.28.139.241 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news1.optus.net.au!optus!newsfeeder.syd.optusnet.com.au!news.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166206 "R. Dan Henry" wrote in message news:5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com... > On 21 Dec 2004 21:11:50 GMT, AC wrote: > > >My feeling on this is that the Nazgul were chained to Sauron's will because > >Sauron held the Nine. > > Do you think Sauron was actually wearing the Nine? If so, it's > interesting to note that he had a one-to-one match with his fingers. > > Okay, maybe not *that* interesting. > I've wondered about that. Did Sauron have the nine rings or were they worn by the Nazgul? So, originally the nine were given to kings of men (black numenoreans etc), which turned them into wraiths. Didn't they need to keep these rings to stay as wraiths. At what point did Sauron say, ok your conversion into wraiths is now successful give me back the nine. I thought that was the whole point of the one ring so that Sauron could dominate and control the others wearing the lesser rings (such as the nine). I favour the theory that the nazgul each held their own ring because that is what kept them as wraiths and gave them un-naturally long life. If they didn't have the rings, wouldn't they eventually fade and die like all men. After all think about what happen to Bilbo (or even Gollum) while he had the one ring. The ring gave both of them a long life. Bilbo was over 100 but didn't look that old (even though he fealt weary and stretched). It is only after Bilbo gave up the ring did his normal aging process start to kick-in again and he started to show his real age. Gollum on the other hand held the ring much longer so maybe the wear off effect took longer. Mike ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:23:49 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:26:48 -0800 Message-ID: References: <41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org> <41c840d2$0$4537$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com> <41cb0fb1$0$4536$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 63 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.23.131.109 X-Trace: sv3-3xUOJt8rSoHE7kCC+6tKstERcsSoxroyCfpsME0B+HWUscaHyzZvyd/nM1+XFLRFY5U2Pptmoz4Bv2o!m9yNiO9xTd4iaKjTj780oKdIavT6eZlvwsm+SHvshRmDoRnO7rmNJbJ3ngLKqanK/9VZvKr8Oixf!P5cfyOedYA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166210 In article <41cb0fb1$0$4536$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, no.spam@thanks.com says... > > "R. Dan Henry" wrote in message > news:5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com... > > On 21 Dec 2004 21:11:50 GMT, AC wrote: > > > > >My feeling on this is that the Nazgul were chained to Sauron's will > because > > >Sauron held the Nine. > > > > Do you think Sauron was actually wearing the Nine? If so, it's > > interesting to note that he had a one-to-one match with his fingers. > > > > Okay, maybe not *that* interesting. > > > > I've wondered about that. Did Sauron have the nine rings or were they worn > by the Nazgul? In Letter 246, JRRT writes that Sauron "held" the Nine Rings: "But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring's subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination? Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt - saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible." > > So, originally the nine were given to kings of men (black numenoreans etc), > which turned them into wraiths. Didn't they need to keep these rings to stay > as wraiths. At what point did Sauron say, ok your conversion into wraiths is > now successful give me back the nine. I thought that was the whole point of > the one ring so that Sauron could dominate and control the others wearing > the lesser rings (such as the nine). > > I favour the theory that the nazgul each held their own ring because that is > what kept them as wraiths and gave them un-naturally long life. If they > didn't have the rings, wouldn't they eventually fade and die like all men. > > After all think about what happen to Bilbo (or even Gollum) while he had the > one ring. The ring gave both of them a long life. Bilbo was over 100 but > didn't look that old (even though he fealt weary and stretched). It is only > after Bilbo gave up the ring did his normal aging process start to kick-in > again and he started to show his real age. Gollum on the other hand held the > ring much longer so maybe the wear off effect took longer. I don't see the aging process 'kicking-in' for Bilbo until after the One Ring is destroyed. -- Tar-Elenion He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org> <41c840d2$0$4537$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com> <41cb0fb1$0$4536$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Lines: 68 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <81Fyd.5828$Ar5.1929@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:30:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1103830212 82.43.126.28 (Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:30:12 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:30:12 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.zanker.org!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166211 Mike P. wrote: > I favour the theory that the nazgul each held their own ring because > that is what kept them as wraiths and gave them un-naturally long > life. If they didn't have the rings, wouldn't they eventually fade > and die like all men. Probably not. It is not certain what happens with the Rings that the Nazgul have, but a reasonable assumption is that those Rings are like all the other Rings of Power, specifically like the One Ring. And we do know a fair amount about the One Ring. We know that things done with the aid of the One Ring are not undone when the Ring is lost. The foundations of Barad-dur are not undone, and Sauron himself is not permamnently reduced (as he is after the Ring is destroyed). Similarly, Sauron holding the Nazgul rings would not cause a reversal of the effects of those rings. What would undo the effects is the destruction of either the rings or the One Ring. And this happens at the end of the Third Age. > After all think about what happen to Bilbo (or even Gollum) while he > had the one ring. The ring gave both of them a long life. Bilbo was > over 100 but didn't look that old (even though he fealt weary and > stretched). All OK so far. > It is only after Bilbo gave up the ring did his normal > aging process start to kick-in again Possibly. It is not certain what the rate of aging is when the Ring is taken away. Gollum seems to age more slowly than Bilbo does. I favour a theory that at some point the aging process of a hobbit is frozen if that hobbit is affected by the Ring for long enough, and remains frozen even if the Ring is removed from the immediate vicinity. > and he started to show his real age. This is not correct. Bilbo only shows his real age once the Ring has been destroyed. Compare the descriptions of Bilbo in: (a) The Shire at age 111. (b) Rivendell at about age 128 (before the War of the Ring). (c) Rivendell at about age 129 (after the War of the Ring). > Gollum on the other hand held the ring much longer so maybe the > wear off effect took longer. As above, there probably isn't any wear-off effect. Also, we see Bilbo 17 years after he gives up the Ring. We see Gollum about 78 years after he loses the Ring. There are lots of other factors to consider as well, such as how strongly they are affected by the Ring (Gollum murdered to obtain the Ring), how long they held the Ring (Gollum held it for longer, as you say - several hundred years), how long they were parted from the Ring. Also, hobbits seem to be affected by the Ring in a different way to Men. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:18:43 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org> <41c840d2$0$4537$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com> <41cb0fb1$0$4536$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news.alt.net!sjc1.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166244 "Mike P." wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I've wondered about that. Did Sauron have the nine rings or were they worn >by the Nazgul? There is no real doubt: Sauron had them. See quotes on both sides of the issue in the FAQ of the Rings. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: "Mike P." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org> <41c840d2$0$4537$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com> <41cb0fb1$0$4536$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:46:04 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Lines: 22 Message-ID: <41cc1da3$0$5287$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 211.28.139.241 X-Trace: 1103895972 5287 211.28.139.241 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news1.optus.net.au!optus!newsfeeder.syd.optusnet.com.au!news.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166262 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1c3554a13a8f1ba398cf54@news.odyssey.net... > "Mike P." wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >I've wondered about that. Did Sauron have the nine rings or were they worn > >by the Nazgul? > > There is no real doubt: Sauron had them. > > See quotes on both sides of the issue in the FAQ of the Rings. > Ok if Sauron, held the nine rings, he must at some stage given the rings to the men who became the Nazgul. Did Tolkien ever write about at what stage he decided to take them back and hold them as his own? Thanks. Mike ###### Lines: 8 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: carl032163@aol.com (Carl032163) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 24 Dec 2004 13:58:37 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Message-ID: <20041224085837.06096.00001643@mb-m21.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166263 A more interesting question might be: Why did the Ring not have as corrupting an influence on Isildur? Clearly it was "precious" to him, and to that degree he was under its power, but he didn't become a tyrant (unless I missed something) or try to make war on Rivendell. He just held it until he was slaughtered by Orcs. Maybe that's why it left him, because it couldn't inspire him to be truly evil. Maybe in the hands of other it merely inspires a desire to possess it, and Gandalf and Galadriel were wrong to fear its corrupting influence. ###### From: Conrad Dunkerson Reply-To: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? References: <20041224085837.06096.00001643@mb-m21.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <20041224085837.06096.00001643@mb-m21.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 6 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:06:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.89.76.132 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: trndny06 1103897189 138.89.76.132 (Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:06:29 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:06:29 EST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trndny06.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166264 Carl032163 wrote: > A more interesting question might be: Why did the Ring not have as corrupting > an influence on Isildur? He was killed before it had a chance. It didn't corrupt Bilbo or Frodo instantaneously either. ###### From: Conrad Dunkerson Reply-To: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? References: <41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org> <41c840d2$0$4537$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com> <41cb0fb1$0$4536$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <41cc1da3$0$5287$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> In-Reply-To: <41cc1da3$0$5287$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:10:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.89.76.132 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: trndny07 1103897459 138.89.76.132 (Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:10:59 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:10:59 EST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trndny07.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166265 Mike P. wrote: > Ok if Sauron, held the nine rings, he must at some stage given the rings to > the men who became the Nazgul. Did Tolkien ever write about at what stage he > decided to take them back and hold them as his own? Well, in LotR it is said that Sauron 'has gathered' the Nine rings. As such, I generally take it to have been after his return. While he had the One he did not need the Nine to control the Nazgul and thus they were probably in the possession of the Nazgul from the time he gave them out, through Sauron's defeat by the Last Alliance, and long into the Third Age. Then, when Sauron was getting ready to move against the West again (possibly as early as before the WK set up shop in Angmar) he took the Nine back and retained them until the One was destroyed. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:13:04 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org> <41c840d2$0$4537$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com> <41cb0fb1$0$4536$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <41cc1da3$0$5287$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166268 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Well, in LotR it is said that Sauron 'has gathered' the Nine rings. As >such, I generally take it to have been after his return. While he had >the One he did not need the Nine to control the Nazgul and thus they >were probably in the possession of the Nazgul from the time he gave them >out, through Sauron's defeat by the Last Alliance, and long into the >Third Age. Then, when Sauron was getting ready to move against the West >again (possibly as early as before the WK set up shop in Angmar) he took >the Nine back and retained them until the One was destroyed. When he no longer had the One, how was he able to demand the Nine from the Nazgûl and compel their obedience? Do you think it was the terror of being Sauron, or their long habits of obedience while he had held the One? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Conrad Dunkerson Reply-To: conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? References: <41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org> <41c840d2$0$4537$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com> <41cb0fb1$0$4536$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <41cc1da3$0$5287$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 29 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:47:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.89.76.132 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: trndny01 1103906860 138.89.76.132 (Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:47:40 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:47:40 EST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trndny01.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166270 Stan Brown wrote: > When he no longer had the One, how was he able to demand the Nine > from the Nazgûl and compel their obedience? Do you think it was the > terror of being Sauron, or their long habits of obedience while he > had held the One? Consider Tolkien's letter about a hypothetical confrontation between Gandalf with the One and Sauron. Tolkien said that it would be a close fight whether Gandalf would be able to with-hold the One from Sauron or not... and that Aragorn, Elrond, Galadriel, et cetera wouldn't even stand a chance. It seems unlikely that any of the Nazgul would be more powerful than Gandalf with the One. They might have greater 'ownership' right to their Rings than Gandalf did to the One, but Sauron had corrupted the Nine before ever handing them out and actually used them to dominate the Nazgul. As such I think that the situations are parallel... once he had 'located' them Sauron could have simply demanded the Rings back from the Nazgul and they would be unable to resist. So while 'terror of Sauron' and 'long habits' are good explanations I don't think either was >required<... Sauron could force them by simple brute force of will. That said, my guess would be that Sauron didn't have to go that far because of the other factors... basically once Sauron had recovered it was a foregone conclusion. The Nazgul could have fought it tooth and nail, been long since conditioned to submit, or yielded to the inevitable... difficult to say which was the case, but I'd guess it was something of each. ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: 24 Dec 2004 17:02:07 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <41C8157F.D7610AFE@acm.org> <41c840d2$0$4537$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <5mljs0l3qirn18t800v2i91c4mk9ctrue6@4ax.com> <41cb0fb1$0$4536$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <41cc1da3$0$5287$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net oDIolmM81J+UHAAtEh4I4AGN3Puh6/YnhQNktDwBvvnlB0kTDn User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166271 On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:13:04 -0500, Stan Brown wrote: > "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Well, in LotR it is said that Sauron 'has gathered' the Nine rings. As >>such, I generally take it to have been after his return. While he had >>the One he did not need the Nine to control the Nazgul and thus they >>were probably in the possession of the Nazgul from the time he gave them >>out, through Sauron's defeat by the Last Alliance, and long into the >>Third Age. Then, when Sauron was getting ready to move against the West >>again (possibly as early as before the WK set up shop in Angmar) he took >>the Nine back and retained them until the One was destroyed. > > When he no longer had the One, how was he able to demand the Nine > from the Nazgûl and compel their obedience? Do you think it was the > terror of being Sauron, or their long habits of obedience while he > had held the One? I think that is quite likely. He may not have been able to control them, but I suspect that he still held a great deal of sway over them. It's also quite possible that they could no longer imagine any deed that ultimately didn't serve Sauron. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: 24 Dec 2004 17:07:23 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <20041224085837.06096.00001643@mb-m21.aol.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net ozLSPR+dDo/YNaXa+bE9igRgmj5K314hYBcH51Vktynoid8gx4 User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166272 On 24 Dec 2004 13:58:37 GMT, Carl032163 wrote: > A more interesting question might be: Why did the Ring not have as corrupting > an influence on Isildur? Clearly it was "precious" to him, and to that degree > he was under its power, but he didn't become a tyrant (unless I missed > something) or try to make war on Rivendell. He just held it until he was > slaughtered by Orcs. Maybe that's why it left him, because it couldn't inspire > him to be truly evil. Maybe in the hands of other it merely inspires a desire > to possess it, and Gandalf and Galadriel were wrong to fear its corrupting > influence. The effect wasn't instaneous. It would take time for its influence to overcome an individual, and I don't think Isildur held on to the Ring all that long. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 02:23:49 -0600 From: R. Dan Henry Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:23:50 -0800 Message-ID: References: <20041224085837.06096.00001643@mb-m21.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.25.51.245 X-Trace: sv3-i5BfbyfkWIoeq2cxy5bmucgwB7cydr5DnawkAj5rS7CHVI7BR2J8K3QVY4NUGMNMSQW0eiJnQByg31N!LiV7itEA4gBpR1c1v9nzmAe5KPTYgkIuBytmG7r9LNQec407W5bG8KR0feNvnar50A7y7BTLpyNx!jILUchySBDu7+7Aw2QiGfdo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.inreach.com!news.inreach.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166279 On 24 Dec 2004 13:58:37 GMT, carl032163@aol.com (Carl032163) wrote: >A more interesting question might be: Why did the Ring not have as corrupting >an influence on Isildur? Clearly it was "precious" to him, and to that degree >he was under its power, but he didn't become a tyrant (unless I missed >something) or try to make war on Rivendell. He just held it until he was >slaughtered by Orcs. Maybe that's why it left him, because it couldn't inspire >him to be truly evil. Maybe in the hands of other it merely inspires a desire >to possess it, and Gandalf and Galadriel were wrong to fear its corrupting >influence. Isildur wasn't able to use it; Gandalf and Galadriel could. They'd have taken up the Ring (if they'd failed) to "use it for good", but that is illusion. The Power of the Ring is in domination, fundamentally it fails to respect the freedom of the other's will. That is why it's use is inevitably corrupting. R. Dan Henry danhenry@inreach.com ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <20041224085837.06096.00001643@mb-m21.aol.com> Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 16:38:46 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.29 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104075303 213.101.77.29 (Sun, 26 Dec 2004 16:35:03 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 16:35:03 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166311 "AC" skrev i meddelandet news:slrncsoj6b.15v.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net... > On 24 Dec 2004 13:58:37 GMT, > Carl032163 wrote: > > A more interesting question might be: Why did the Ring not have as corrupting > > an influence on Isildur? Clearly it was "precious" to him, and to that degree > > he was under its power, but he didn't become a tyrant (unless I missed > > something) or try to make war on Rivendell. He just held it until he was > > slaughtered by Orcs. Maybe that's why it left him, because it couldn't inspire > > him to be truly evil. Maybe in the hands of other it merely inspires a desire > > to possess it, and Gandalf and Galadriel were wrong to fear its corrupting > > influence. > > The effect wasn't instaneous. It would take time for its influence to > overcome an individual, and I don't think Isildur held on to the Ring all > that long. Gandalf comments that no matter how awful his death, it was probably a better fate than the one he would would have met if he had lived on. Öjevind ###### Lines: 23 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comjunk.net (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 27 Dec 2004 21:16:12 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Message-ID: <20041227161612.00289.00002281@mb-m17.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed2.ip.tiscali.net!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!diablo.voicenet.com!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166384 Aaron wrote: >> A more interesting question might be: Why did the Ring not have as >corrupting >> an influence on Isildur? Clearly it was "precious" to him, and to that >degree >> he was under its power, but he didn't become a tyrant (unless I missed >> something) or try to make war on Rivendell. He just held it until he was >> slaughtered by Orcs. Maybe that's why it left him, because it couldn't >inspire >> him to be truly evil. Maybe in the hands of other it merely inspires a >desire >> to possess it, and Gandalf and Galadriel were wrong to fear its corrupting >> influence. > >The effect wasn't instaneous. It would take time for its influence to >overcome an individual, and I don't think Isildur held on to the Ring all >that long. It oversame Smeagol virtually instantaneously. And it overcame Boromir relatively quickly considering he never actually possessed it. Russ ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:14:26 -0800 Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 42 Message-ID: <33bfq0F3v3t81U2@individual.net> References: <20041227161612.00289.00002281@mb-m17.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: individual.net ki5r8mskxNWmOgZsA9BLCwVS6hRqxqEt1ZbNPpyAjEmkUnL50w User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0RC1 (X11/20041201) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <20041227161612.00289.00002281@mb-m17.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166388 Russ wrote: > Aaron wrote: > >>>A more interesting question might be: Why did the Ring not have as >> >>corrupting >> >>>an influence on Isildur? Clearly it was "precious" to him, and to that >> >>degree >> >>>he was under its power, but he didn't become a tyrant (unless I missed >>>something) or try to make war on Rivendell. He just held it until he was >>>slaughtered by Orcs. Maybe that's why it left him, because it couldn't >> >>inspire >> >>>him to be truly evil. Maybe in the hands of other it merely inspires a >> >>desire >> >>>to possess it, and Gandalf and Galadriel were wrong to fear its corrupting >>>influence. >> >>The effect wasn't instaneous. It would take time for its influence to >>overcome an individual, and I don't think Isildur held on to the Ring all >>that long. > It oversame Smeagol virtually instantaneously. And it overcame > Boromir > relatively quickly considering he never actually possessed it. Smeagol was a bad dude to begin with, and I suspect that Boromir's fall had as much to do with his pride and his belief that a tool of power must not be destroyed. I suspect that the precise nature of any individual's turn to evil due to the Ring was based on their personalities as much as anything else. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: vonhooligan@juno.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien, alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: 27 Dec 2004 18:39:08 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 50 Message-ID: <1104201548.458932.139450@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> References: <20041224085837.06096.00001643@mb-m21.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.60.19.21 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: posting.google.com 1104201552 25783 127.0.0.1 (28 Dec 2004 02:39:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:39:12 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: User-Agent: G2/0.2 Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=204.60.19.21; posting-account=q3DRwwwAAADG7F6uNwLnC6TqfLINWddG Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!216.239.36.134.MISMATCH!postnews.google.com!f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166406 Öjevind Lång wrote: > "AC" skrev i meddelandet > news:slrncsoj6b.15v.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net... > > > On 24 Dec 2004 13:58:37 GMT, > > Carl032163 wrote: > > > A more interesting question might be: Why did the Ring not have as > corrupting > > > an influence on Isildur? Clearly it was "precious" to him, and to that > degree > > > he was under its power, but he didn't become a tyrant (unless I missed > > > something) or try to make war on Rivendell. He just held it until he was > > > slaughtered by Orcs. Maybe that's why it left him, because it couldn't > inspire > > > him to be truly evil. Maybe in the hands of other it merely inspires a > desire > > > to possess it, and Gandalf and Galadriel were wrong to fear its > corrupting > > > influence. > > > > The effect wasn't instaneous. It would take time for its influence to > > overcome an individual, and I don't think Isildur held on to the Ring all > > that long. > > Gandalf comments that no matter how awful his death, it was probably a > better fate than the one he would would have met if he had lived on. There are two things to bear in mind about Isildur and the Ring... 1) Sauron was-for lack of a better way to put it-temporarily dead. He got better much later on. But just after that battle, he was TKO-ed for the nonce; meaning he wouldn't have been able to exert any power to bring the Ring-or cause it to bring itself-to him. 2) I may be wrong about this, as I don't have the appendices ready at hand. But I don't think Isildur lived all that long after taking the Ring. I think it was about a year, more or less... Vandevere ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <20041224085837.06096.00001643@mb-m21.aol.com> <1104201548.458932.139450@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Lines: 40 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:11:47 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.205 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104246480 213.101.77.205 (Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:08:00 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:08:00 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.netplace.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!News-Peer-Europe!news.stupi.se!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166421 skrev i meddelandet news:1104201548.458932.139450@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... Öjevind Lång wrote: > "AC" skrev i meddelandet > news:slrncsoj6b.15v.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net... [snip] >> Gandalf comments that no matter how awful his death, it was probably a >> better fate than the one he would would have met if he had lived on. >There are two things to bear in mind about Isildur and the Ring... >1) Sauron was-for lack of a better way to put it-temporarily dead. He got better much later on. But just after that battle, he was TKO-ed for the nonce; meaning he wouldn't have been able to exert any power to bring the Ring-or cause it to bring itself-to him. The Ring contained much of Sauron's power. I am sure it could corrupt someone even if Sauron was temporarily out of circulation. It seems Gandalf thought the same. >2) I may be wrong about this, as I don't have the appendices ready at hand. But I don't think Isildur lived all that long after taking the Ring. I think it was about a year, more or less... According to the appendices, he stayed a year in Minas Tirith, instructing his nephew Meneldil in how to rule Gondor. Then he marched north and met his fate at the Gladden Fields. Somewhere (in "Unfinished Tales", perhaps?) Tolkien says that Mendeldil was a rather quiet, secretive man, but that those with a keen sight thought he was gald to see Isildur go so he could cement his own power without deferring to him. Seems the Southern Line was tainted from the very beginning. Öjevind ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:13:33 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <20041224085837.06096.00001643@mb-m21.aol.com> <1104201548.458932.139450@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166451 "" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >1) Sauron was-for lack of a better way to put it-temporarily dead. You could phrase it as Max did in /The Princess Bride/: "He's not completely dead, he's only mostly dead." -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:14:34 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <20041224085837.06096.00001643@mb-m21.aol.com> <1104201548.458932.139450@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166452 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > Somewhere (in "Unfinished Tales", perhaps?) Tolkien says that Mendeldil >was a rather quiet, secretive man, but that those with a keen sight thought >he was gald to see Isildur go so he could cement his own power without >deferring to him. Seems the Southern Line was tainted from the very >beginning. I think another reading is possible: a young man is eager to be his own master and out from the tutelage of his uncle. It seems pretty natural in human nature. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Date: 29 Dec 2004 06:25:31 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <20041224085837.06096.00001643@mb-m21.aol.com> <1104201548.458932.139450@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net MnKWupbHlZLqpMrgFVTKmw0QGSSl9RzWBLicbaHCyuYd2fE/Ob User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166462 On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:14:34 -0500, Stan Brown wrote: > "Öjevind Lång" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> Somewhere (in "Unfinished Tales", perhaps?) Tolkien says that Mendeldil >>was a rather quiet, secretive man, but that those with a keen sight thought >>he was gald to see Isildur go so he could cement his own power without >>deferring to him. Seems the Southern Line was tainted from the very >>beginning. > > I think another reading is possible: a young man is eager to be his > own master and out from the tutelage of his uncle. It seems pretty > natural in human nature. Indeed. I don't think the Gondorian royal line's problems started until much later. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### Lines: 12 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comjunk.net (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 29 Dec 2004 16:44:16 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Message-ID: <20041229114416.22033.00002478@mb-m06.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166485 Stan wrote: >>1) Sauron was-for lack of a better way to put it-temporarily dead. > >You could phrase it as Max did in /The Princess Bride/: "He's not >completely dead, he's only mostly dead." Or the fellow in the new version of Dawn of the Dead who described the zombies as "Dead-ish" Russ ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:41:25 -0600 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:39:56 -0500 From: Flame of the West User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? References: <20041224085837.06096.00001643@mb-m21.aol.com> <1104201548.458932.139450@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <4fadnbeN1-zLZ0_cRVn-jg@comcast.com> Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.49.70.57 X-Trace: sv3-B3toSvu20l/0/bukCK0F9BZyO5+3WlY0hlZHxhSg46gU2ujZq3EZ4bTxzsaDjJvBd4aEIrfDsASo2rS!Ey3BAKKq3izfJrEIdEdOf4IiZYSriCftPbGXUDKEVI2sII/MgrI0FHbxwWE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166491 Stan Brown wrote: > You could phrase it as Max did in /The Princess Bride/: "He's not > completely dead, he's only mostly dead." He's not quite dead. In fact, he's feeling much better! -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <20041224085837.06096.00001643@mb-m21.aol.com> Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Lines: 26 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <9UGAd.884$1c.393@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:15:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1104362117 82.43.126.28 (Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:15:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:15:17 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news.belwue.de!news.n-ix.net!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166512 Öjevind Lång wrote: > "AC" skrev: >> The effect wasn't instaneous. It would take time for its influence >> to overcome an individual, and I don't think Isildur held on to the >> Ring all that long. > > Gandalf comments that no matter how awful his death, it was probably a > better fate than the one he would would have met if he had lived on. It was Elrond, surely? "But soon he was betrayed by it to his death; and so it is named in the North Isildur's Bane. Yet death maybe was better than what else might have befallen him." (Elrond at 'The Council of Elrond') But it doesn't really matter who said it. SINTTDB. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <20041224085837.06096.00001643@mb-m21.aol.com> <9UGAd.884$1c.393@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:46:36 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.77.202 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1104403369 213.101.77.202 (Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:42:49 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:42:49 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166553 "Christopher Kreuzer" skrev i meddelandet news:9UGAd.884$1c.393@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk... [snip] > > Gandalf comments that no matter how awful his death, it was probably a > > better fate than the one he would would have met if he had lived on. > > It was Elrond, surely? > > "But soon he was betrayed by it to his death; and so it is named in the > North Isildur's Bane. Yet death maybe was better than what else might > have befallen him." (Elrond at 'The Council of Elrond') You are right, of course. And I do find that statement rather conclusive with regard to the Ring's influence at all times. > But it doesn't really matter who said it. SINTTDB. I believe I get your drift, but what does the acronym stand for? Öjevind ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <20041224085837.06096.00001643@mb-m21.aol.com> <9UGAd.884$1c.393@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: Lord Frodo? Lines: 14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:07:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1104404847 82.43.126.28 (Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:07:27 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:07:27 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166557 Öjevind Lång wrote: > "Christopher Kreuzer" skrev: >> But it doesn't really matter who said it. SINTTDB. > > I believe I get your drift, but what does the acronym stand for? I just made it up. I thought my post was rather pedantic, so I made that point with the "it doesn't really matter" comment. Then I added SINTTDB (Send is nearer than the delete button) to explain sending it anyway. IDTTAWCO: I don't think this acronym will catch on... :-)