From: "Mike P." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: What if the ring had not been found? Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 03:40:29 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 211.28.62.218 X-Trace: 1103128830 7078 211.28.62.218 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news1.optus.net.au!optus!newsfeeder.syd.optusnet.com.au!news.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165584 Ok just some wild speculation here - what would have happened if the ring had not been found either by Smeagol or Bilbo and remained hidden? I was mainly thinking about this from the point of view of Gandalf's / Olorin's role. After all, out of the 5 Istari, Gandalf was the only one who succeeded in his task - to assist the people of Middle Earth to defeat Sauron. The fact that the ring ended up with Bilbo and then Frodo was a huge fluke (sure will of the ring - looking for it's master and everything aside). It was a huge fluke for Gandalf in helping to achieve his task. Even without the ring, it seemed that Sauron was getting pretty powerful. Sure the defeat on the Pelennor fields was a set back - but it was only a matter a time before he regrouped and launched another offensive. Even without the ring, Sauron could potentially within a couple of decades have controlled large parts of Middle Earth. What would Gandalf have achieved in this case? Wouldn't he have failed anyway and was just saved by a giant fluke? MIke ###### From: jsberry@yahoo.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 15 Dec 2004 10:12:34 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 32 Message-ID: <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.55.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1103134358 503 127.0.0.1 (15 Dec 2004 18:12:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:12:38 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> User-Agent: G2/0.2 Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=208.63.55.2; posting-account=Z0GwRwwAAAC5PKmfidtOfU0m3lJymsuo Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165586 Gandalf still could have succeded by coordinating the good guys. Gandalf organized the elimination of Smaug, killed the Balrog, broke Saruman, and saved Rohan (which saved Gondor). Gandalf replaced Denethor's leadership with Aragorn. He (indirectly) awoke the Ents. That was far from failure. Sauron lost a large army at the Pelenor, and his best general. Most importantly, he lost his allied Easterlings and Southrons (conspicuously absent from the Black Gate). The Corsairs were beaten. Two other Mordor armies were eliminated by Rohan and the Ents. While still capable of crushing the Pelenor survivors on his own turf, Sauron might not have had the offensive strength to make another attempt at Minas Tirith. Meanwhile, on the Central Front, Galadriel was winning the battle by beating back assaults from Dol Guldur. On the Northern Front, the Dwarves fought the Easterlings to a draw (blockaded in Erebor, but surely the Iron Hills dwarves and Mirkwood elves would have bailed them out) and the Easterlings might have quit the effort altogether after their dispiriting Pelenor defeat. Remember, the good guys beat Sauron (with the Ring) in the Second Age, so it is conceivable that they could beat him (without the Ring) in their (also diminished) strength in the Third Age. If Gil Gilad, Elendil, and Isildur could cut his Ring-finger off, then Glorfindel, Aragorn, and Elrond could cut his head off. Even if Gollum had taken the Ring from a poisoned Frodo and disappeared never to be seen again, the good guys could conceivably fought Sauron to a draw. Of course, all of this is speculation ("what ifs" do not lend themselves well to fiction). ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? From: Emerald Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@bellsouth.net X-Abuse-Info: Please forward a copy of all headers for proper handling X-Trace: ofjmidbaofeaohdodbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcboaieckpgagfmammjlnieljpomioalbjblfbmhobfjnpmlgdjgdmeniphlhmfjepgachpijobjlocphfgkggjdbombbbcihefmgghbjjfoaiemglci NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:15:33 EST Organization: BellSouth Internet Group Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:16:34 -0500 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!bigfeed.bellsouth.net!bignumber.bellsouth.net!news.bellsouth.net!bignews6.bellsouth.net.POSTED!5e7ce283!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165587 Mike P. at no.spam@thanks.com wrote on 12/15/04 11:40 AM: > saved by > a giant fluke? > Marvelous imagery! -- Emerald Elbereth A Place Where Emeralds Grow http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/r/drdrive/emeraldelbereth.html ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 15 Dec 2004 21:51:04 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 62 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net lXw4YEdZtJnk6BRhYnAB5wdbn/mP5aAmbDIZlK3HcxmjSqh9y0 User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165595 On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 03:40:29 +1100, Mike P. wrote: > Ok just some wild speculation here - what would have happened if the ring > had not been found either by Smeagol or Bilbo and remained hidden? It wasn't hidden. It was lost, and I suspect that if Deagol hadn't spotted it in the Anduin, then Saruman would have found it later. That would have been bad. > > I was mainly thinking about this from the point of view of Gandalf's / > Olorin's role. After all, out of the 5 Istari, Gandalf was the only one who > succeeded in his task - to assist the people of Middle Earth to defeat > Sauron. > > The fact that the ring ended up with Bilbo and then Frodo was a huge fluke > (sure will of the ring - looking for it's master and everything aside). It > was a huge fluke for Gandalf in helping to achieve his task. Well, Gandalf rather hints that it might not necessarily all been chance right in the Shadow of the Past. > > Even without the ring, it seemed that Sauron was getting pretty powerful. > Sure the defeat on the Pelennor fields was a set back - but it was only a > matter a time before he regrouped and launched another offensive. That's right. Denethor did not see lies in the Palantir. There wasn't sufficient military might to defeat Sauron, or even to hold him off. Gondor, at least, and probably much of the Wilderland and Eriador would have been overrun. > > Even without the ring, Sauron could potentially within a couple of decades > have controlled large parts of Middle Earth. What would Gandalf have > achieved in this case? Wouldn't he have failed anyway and was just saved by > a giant fluke? I think you really need to reread The Shadow of the Past. Chance alone clearly wasn't at work. That being said, without the Ring, I'm presuming that places like Imaldris and Lorien, and probably some other defensible places would have remained out of his control. The key to Imaldris and Lorien was that there two ringbearers ruling them, and with the One, Sauron could not dominate them or control all that had been made with those rings. However, they would have been islands in the sea of Greater Mordor. Sauron's control wouldn't have been as iron strong as it might have been with the Ruling Ring, but still he'd have a very firm military grip. As for Gandalf, I can only assume in that situation that he would do what he'd always done, try to build up the resistance to Sauron. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com "Will you kindly explain to me the reasons to debar individuals in certain branches from rising by merit to commissioned rank? If a cook may rise, or a steward, why not an electrical artificer or au ordnance rating or a shipwright? If a telegraphist may rise, why not a painter? Apparently there is no difficulty about painters rising in Germany!" - Winston Churchill ###### Message-ID: <41C0E1D6.B17E6C63@acm.org> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:16:13 -0500 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.55 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1103162362 20199 207.199.164.55 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165610 "Mike P." wrote: > ... > Even without the ring, Sauron could potentially within a couple of decades > have controlled large parts of Middle Earth. What would Gandalf have > achieved in this case? Wouldn't he have failed anyway and was just saved by > a giant fluke? For a while. It may have been something like the enormous amount of time that Morgoth controlled large parts of Middle Earth before the Valar stepped in. I expect eventually Eru or the Valar would launch another effort to overthrow Sauron. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 16 Dec 2004 01:20:09 GMT Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> X-Trace: individual.net 7uShhgC7596zQaSpY5qs2Q49IyQH+8Wjt2M5KkxMuUp10lGubS User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165609 jsberry@yahoo.com wrote in news:1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: > > Sauron lost a large army at the Pelenor, and his best general. > Most importantly, he lost his allied Easterlings and Southrons > (conspicuously absent from the Black Gate). The Corsairs were > beaten. Two other Mordor armies were eliminated by Rohan and the > Ents. While still capable of crushing the Pelenor survivors on > his own turf, Sauron might not have had the offensive strength to > make another attempt at Minas Tirith. > > Meanwhile, on the Central Front, Galadriel was winning the battle > by beating back assaults from Dol Guldur. On the Northern Front, > the Dwarves fought the Easterlings to a draw (blockaded in Erebor, > but surely the Iron Hills dwarves and Mirkwood elves would have > bailed them out) and the Easterlings might have quit the effort > altogether after their dispiriting Pelenor defeat. > > Remember, the good guys beat Sauron (with the Ring) in the Second > Age, so it is conceivable that they could beat him (without the > Ring) in their (also diminished) strength in the Third Age. If > Gil Gilad, Elendil, and Isildur could cut his Ring-finger off, > then Glorfindel, Aragorn, and Elrond could cut his head off. Even > if Gollum had taken the Ring from a poisoned Frodo and disappeared > never to be seen again, the good guys could conceivably fought > Sauron to a draw. > > Of course, all of this is speculation ("what ifs" do not lend > themselves well to fiction). Tolkien was pretty clear on what would have happened had the Ring not been found. Sauron had built up an overwhelmingly powerful military force, of which the initial assault on Minas Tirith was just a small part. Even in its utter defeat, that force took away a large part of Gondor and Rohan's combined strength (the Rohirrim lost two of their four leading commanders at the Pelennor, Gondor two of three). The combined allies could not hope to survive another pitched battle, let alone prevail. Elsewhere, things were closer. Lorien was besieged, but held its own, as did the Elves of Mirkwood. The Men and Dwarves of Dale and Erebor were beaten back, but retreated into their nearby stronghold. But they were sideshows to the main event in Gondor. As Denethor foresaw, if Gondor fell, so would the West. And Gondor had no chance of standing up to the force it was facing. The Palantir didn't lie. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: JXStern Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 02:26:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.62.122.31 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: trnddc01 1103163974 4.62.122.31 (Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:26:14 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:26:14 EST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trnddc01.POSTED!4fcf30b0!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165611 On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 03:40:29 +1100, "Mike P." wrote: >Ok just some wild speculation here - what would have happened if the ring >had not been found either by Smeagol or Bilbo and remained hidden? See the Council of Elrond, where they talk about this very thing. Not Elrond or Galadriel could resist the coming of Sauron, nor could Bombadil who would be last, as he was first, if given the ring. OK, maybe Gandalf could sneak up behind and give him a wedgie, but the house odds would be strongly in favor of Mordor. J. ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 16 Dec 2004 03:14:41 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 55 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pacific.cse.msu.edu X-AUTHid: wagners5 User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.9 (sun4u)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!info4.fnal.gov!nntp.upenn.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165612 jsberry@yahoo.com wrote: : Gandalf still could have succeded by coordinating the good guys. : Gandalf organized the elimination of Smaug, killed the Balrog, broke : Saruman, and saved Rohan (which saved Gondor). Gandalf replaced : Denethor's leadership with Aragorn. He (indirectly) awoke the Ents. : That was far from failure. : Sauron lost a large army at the Pelenor, and his best general. Most : importantly, he lost his allied Easterlings and Southrons : (conspicuously absent from the Black Gate). From "The Black Gate Opens" 'The Captains mounted again and rode back, and from the host of Mordor there went up a jeering yell. Dust rose smothering the air, as from nearby there marched up an army of Easterlings that had waited for the signal in the shadows of Ered Lithui beyond the further Tower.' From the "The Field of Cormallen" 'But the Men of Rhun and of Harad, Easterling and Southron, saw the ruin of their war and the great majesty and glory of the Captains of the West. And those that were deepest and longest in evil servitude, hating the West, and yet were men proud and bold, in their turn now gathered themselves for a last stand of desperate battle.' : Sauron : might not have had the offensive strength to make another attempt at : Minas Tirith. It is specifically said that Sauron had the strength to make another attempt at Minas Tirith. In "The Last Debate" Gandalf says 'Hardly has our strength sufficed to beat off the first great assault. The next will be greater." : Remember, the good guys beat Sauron (with the Ring) in the Second Age, : so it is conceivable that they could beat him (without the Ring) in : their (also diminished) strength in the Third Age. Gandalf continues: 'This war then is without final hope, as Denethor perceived. Victory cannot be achieved by arms, whether you sit here to endure siege after siege, or march out to be overwhelmed beyond the River.' : Of course, all of this is speculation ("what ifs" do not lend : themselves well to fiction). It is speculation that is directly contradicted by the text. Stephen ###### From: NobodyMan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 73 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:39:21 EST Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:39:21 -0500 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newsswing.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!atl-c02.usenetserver.com!c03.atl99.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!fe14.usenetserver.com.POSTED!83ce148c!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165615 On 15 Dec 2004 10:12:34 -0800, jsberry@yahoo.com wrote: >Gandalf still could have succeded by coordinating the good guys. >Gandalf organized the elimination of Smaug, killed the Balrog, broke >Saruman, and saved Rohan (which saved Gondor). Gandalf replaced >Denethor's leadership with Aragorn. He (indirectly) awoke the Ents. >That was far from failure. Although I credit you in the idea that Gandalf eliminated Smaug, some of your other statements are dubious at best. I agree that Gandalf did "break" Saruman and in the process saved Rohan. Rohan really did nothing to 'save Gondor,' though. Even if the entire population of arms capable Rohan folk moved to Minis Tirith, Gondor still would have fallen to Sauron. His military might was beyond them. Gandalf did nothing to replace Denethor with Aragorn. Aragorn refused to be made leader/king until after Sauron was overthrown. Imrahil was placed as temporary Ward to Gondor until that time. He also had very little to do with the rousing of the Ents. Saruman was almost solely responsible for that. It was his felling of trees and actions near Fangorn that roused the Ents. >Sauron lost a large army at the Pelenor, and his best general. Most >importantly, he lost his allied Easterlings and Southrons >(conspicuously absent from the Black Gate). The Corsairs were beaten. >Two other Mordor armies were eliminated by Rohan and the Ents. While >still capable of crushing the Pelenor survivors on his own turf, Sauron >might not have had the offensive strength to make another attempt at >Minas Tirith. Once again your facts are incorrect. There were many Easterlings and Southrons present at the battle in front of the Moranon. Read the book! It was made very clear that Sauron expended only a small amount of his military strength on the inital battle against Minis Tirith. >Meanwhile, on the Central Front, Galadriel was winning the battle by >beating back assaults from Dol Guldur. On the Northern Front, the >Dwarves fought the Easterlings to a draw (blockaded in Erebor, but >surely the Iron Hills dwarves and Mirkwood elves would have bailed them >out) and the Easterlings might have quit the effort altogether after >their dispiriting Pelenor defeat. The elvish domains were all fighting their own battles. We have no idea what strength remained in the Iron Hills. The Easterlings had a large military presence in Mordor. >Remember, the good guys beat Sauron (with the Ring) in the Second Age, >so it is conceivable that they could beat him (without the Ring) in >their (also diminished) strength in the Third Age. If Gil Gilad, >Elendil, and Isildur could cut his Ring-finger off, then Glorfindel, >Aragorn, and Elrond could cut his head off. Even if Gollum had taken >the Ring from a poisoned Frodo and disappeared never to be seen again, >the good guys could conceivably fought Sauron to a draw. The third age had nowhere near the strength of the Last Alliance of the Second Age. Even the vast and powerful army that was the Last Alliance, under the leadership of the two powerful leaders, Gil Galad and Elendil, took almost a decade to defeat Sauron the first time. The Third Age had no such leaders to rally under. Further, Sauron was only somewhat weaker than during the SA, while the military capablity of his enemies was vastly inferior to the Last Alliance. There was no chance that he could be defeated and Tolkein mad this very clear. >Of course, all of this is speculation ("what ifs" do not lend >themselves well to fiction). ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:45:07 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165643 "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >the Rohirrim lost two of their >four leading commanders at the Pelennor, Gondor two of three How do you figure? Gondor's leading commanders were Imrahil, Aragorn, and Faramir, and as far as I know the first two survived the battle and the third was on sick leave. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: rdwillia@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Richard Williams) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:56:49 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BIOSCI/MRC Rosalind Franklin Centre for Genomics Research Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: bromine.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk X-Trace: helium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk 1103219809 15723 193.62.192.35 (16 Dec 2004 17:56:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@net.bio.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:56:49 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!caladan!news.anlx.net!dedekind.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!hamilton.zen.co.uk!193.60.199.26.MISMATCH!feed4.jnfs.ja.net!feed2.jnfs.ja.net!jnfs.ja.net!rfcgr.mrc.ac.uk!rdwillia Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165645 In article , AC wrote: >As for Gandalf, I can only assume in that situation that he would do what >he'd always done, try to build up the resistance to Sauron. "And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?" (Gandalf to Denethor, _Minas Tirith_, RoTK). Richard. ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 16 Dec 2004 18:41:23 GMT Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> X-Trace: individual.net 06J7jozLGR3xaGwEAPCRxgJUtcmghL1mrDWwUxPq67BWkvrb+M User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165650 Stan Brown wrote in news:MPG.1c2b93a9b87eb54a98ced5@news.odyssey.net: > "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>the Rohirrim lost two of their >>four leading commanders at the Pelennor, Gondor two of three > > How do you figure? Gondor's leading commanders were Imrahil, > Aragorn, and Faramir, and as far as I know the first two survived > the battle and the third was on sick leave. I mistakenly counted Denethor as a commander, the counterpart of Theoden. Aragorn was an independent operator. Rohan's dead commanders: Theoden (C in C), Grimbold (Westfold?) Gondor's wounded commander: Faramir. Denethor (C in C), Boromir dead. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 16 Dec 2004 20:16:06 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 22 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: delhi.cse.msu.edu X-AUTHid: wagners5 User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165661 Yuk Tang wrote: : Stan Brown wrote in : news:MPG.1c2b93a9b87eb54a98ced5@news.odyssey.net: :> "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: :>>the Rohirrim lost two of their :>>four leading commanders at the Pelennor, Gondor two of three :> :> How do you figure? Gondor's leading commanders were Imrahil, :> Aragorn, and Faramir, and as far as I know the first two survived :> the battle and the third was on sick leave. : I mistakenly counted Denethor as a commander, the counterpart of : Theoden. Aragorn was an independent operator. : Rohan's dead commanders: Theoden (C in C), Grimbold (Westfold?) : Gondor's wounded commander: Faramir. : Denethor (C in C), Boromir dead. Do not forget Forlong the Fat. He was the commander of the men of Lossarnach. Stephen ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 16 Dec 2004 21:02:37 GMT Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> X-Trace: individual.net pI/dcoPQ4f0F8BIQhkGuiAJeXDEldGKDqUGJfpEHX0F/lsSvp1 User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165664 stephen@nomail.com wrote in news:cpsqe6$1im8$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu: > Yuk Tang wrote: >: Stan Brown wrote in >: news:MPG.1c2b93a9b87eb54a98ced5@news.odyssey.net: >:> "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >:>>the Rohirrim lost two of their >:>>four leading commanders at the Pelennor, Gondor two of three >:> >:> How do you figure? Gondor's leading commanders were Imrahil, >:> Aragorn, and Faramir, and as far as I know the first two survived >:> the battle and the third was on sick leave. > >: I mistakenly counted Denethor as a commander, the counterpart of >: Theoden. Aragorn was an independent operator. > >: Rohan's dead commanders: Theoden (C in C), Grimbold (Westfold?) >: Gondor's wounded commander: Faramir. >: Denethor (C in C), Boromir dead. > > Do not forget Forlong the Fat. He was the commander of the > men of Lossarnach. Outside Dol Amroth, weren't they one of the major contingents Gondor had counted on? Or would have been, had they not left men behind to guard against the Corsairs. Presumably the remainder would have been picked up by Aragorn on his way to Pelargir. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### Lines: 21 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comjunk.net (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Dec 2004 21:09:12 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Message-ID: <20041216160912.14312.00001759@mb-m13.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!skynet.be!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165669 > >Stan Brown wrote in >news:MPG.1c2b93a9b87eb54a98ced5@news.odyssey.net: >> "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>>the Rohirrim lost two of their >>>four leading commanders at the Pelennor, Gondor two of three >> >> How do you figure? Gondor's leading commanders were Imrahil, >> Aragorn, and Faramir, and as far as I know the first two survived >> the battle and the third was on sick leave. > >I mistakenly counted Denethor as a commander, the counterpart of >Theoden. Aragorn was an independent operator. > >Rohan's dead commanders: Theoden (C in C), Grimbold (Westfold?) >Gondor's wounded commander: Faramir. > Denethor (C in C), Boromir dead. And let's not forget Halbarad, the dour handed Ranger. Russ ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:24:39 -0600 From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:24:38 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Lines: 100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.203.74.66 X-Trace: sv3-X6bc6GL8dod5mSOILspBQ96VRgXf1COFf1yLFnGK2QpVbAaO/hwlhPhLen5Wd/uISRQ9nMOR6ahE6E1!iGAeA8ovSUualL13Yoqo0sIpSKAl+AF/8nm8rQqa18w98CZ15x4SZni32XDZhlkTv6p1QbIHiHQp!K/DdtA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.conversent.net!news.conversent.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165673 "Mike P." wrote in message news:41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au... > Ok just some wild speculation here - what would have happened if the ring > had not been found either by Smeagol or Bilbo and remained hidden? Interesting. Deagel does *not* find the Ring [2463] and it is not taken away and "hidden" in the Misty Mountains by Smeagel So we have both Sauron and Saruman searching the Gladden for it at the same time, roughly. Bilbo probably dies at the hands of the Goblins. Gandalf might try for a rescue mission but seeing how the Goblins came out in force to avenge their King that night I wouldn't have much hope for that. Perhaps after an aborted and fruitless rescue attempt they would have found themselves stuck in the trees and rescued by the Eagles anyway. After that Gandalf would have to decide to stay with the Dwarves or leave like he originally did. If he leaves then the Dwarves either die or fail and Smaug becomes a player in future events like what's hinted at in Unfinished Tales. If Gandalf stays with them then *perhaps* the Quest succeeds in making it through Mirkwood and even receives aid from the Elves. Smaug still would have smelled Laketown on the Dwarves and on their goods and might have done much the same. Perhaps what Bard did (someone else notices the bare patch and survives to tell about it like Bilbo did) and the Battle of the 5 Armies still goes as planned. (even maybe with Gandalf tucking the Arkenstone under his robe!) Assuming the White Council is successful without Gandalf, and I think it's very possible since even Saruman was for it this time, Sauron is driven from Dol-Guldor. Saruman is now in perfect position to find the Ring! Again after referring to what happened in UT and the speculation there that Saruman found Isilder's body I'd say he does. How about, Saruman finds the One Ring before the Last (in our time) meeting of the White Council. NOW what happens? We don't know what kind of forces Saruman has at this time. If any. His aid to the assault on Dol-Guldur might have been just himself. At this time Saruman is also on good terms with Rohan. If the wielders of the 3 try a quick assault on Isengard it is doubtful that they can succeed in taking it. Especially with Saruman wielding the One safely inside. I think that after an initial attempt of reasoning with Saruman and perhaps a hasty failed assault, the White Council might try to work with him but the Elves would accelerate their leaving Middle Earth. Sauron might have used Smaug to destroy Elrond and Cirdan but I don't see Saruman doing so. Or at least not for a while. He might have even preferred that the Elves leave. What would follow would be a slow accumulation of power and forces by Saruman until all the West was under his control. And then his assault on Mordor for mastery of Middle Earth would begin. Some wild cards though: Sauron's reaction to Saruman finding the Ring. I see him launching an immediate naval attack from Umbar and land forces from Dol-Guldor. Would Galadriel aid Saruman or would most of the Lorien be heading for the Grey Havens at this point? She herself is still under the Ban of the Valar. She's stuck here. I bet she personally works with Saruman hoping to gain control or exploit a weakness. Also, if and when Saruman takes the Ring as his own and completely bends it to his will isn't that effectively the same to Sauron as throwing it into Mt Doom? All Saruman has to do is remain in Isengard until he has mastery and it's all over. What can Gandalf do at this point? Not much. He was captured by Saruman easily before and Saruman has "grown" in power but not Gandalf. He's still "Grey". Even if Eru "powered him up" or freed him to use all his power, like in our time, Saruman still outclasses him. He'll possibly become a "behind the scenes" character, helping others resist. Perhaps leading the Rangers and receiving hidden aid from Saruman's second in command, the Ringless, Galadriel. He'll always be looking for a chance to strike and take the Ring from Saruman. Which, of course, leads to a whole other can of worms! :o) Just some thoughts. T.A. ###### From: jsberry@yahoo.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 16 Dec 2004 13:26:21 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 34 Message-ID: <1103232381.414139.258850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.55.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1103232386 26535 127.0.0.1 (16 Dec 2004 21:26:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:26:26 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: User-Agent: G2/0.2 Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com; posting-host=208.63.55.2; posting-account=Z0GwRwwAAAC5PKmfidtOfU0m3lJymsuo Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165674 OK I was wrong about the Southrons and Easterlings at the Black Gate. But they would not have put up with failure forever. They were getting their butts kicked hard up to that point, first by Faramir's band and then at the Pelenor Fields. At some point, their morale will break and they will go home. Unlike orcs, they fight for self-interest. When they do, Sauron's army is night-shift only. I'm not so sure the 3A leaders were weaker than the 2A allies. Aragorn was a better man than Isildur. Glorfindel killed a Balrog. Elrond only got more powerful (he could use his ring in the 3A but not in the 2A). Gandalf was a maia, the 2A allies had none. The alleged supremacy of Sauron over the allies has two sources, Denethor and Gandalf. Denethor's Palantir did not lie, but it was selective. He could see Sauron's might but not the allies' might. They had Ents, Eagles, and the Dead. Rohan DID save Gondor (temporarily anyway). Denethor didn't know about the Galadrim, Woodelves, and Dwarves. Gandalf was not omniscient, and he was known to BS in arguments to get his own way. He wanted the Black Gate Gambit to take the Eye off of Frodo (a good idea) so he said "the next [assault] will be greater." How did he know??? And even if the next assault was greater, the result was not a foregone conclusion. The allies were better prepared, fully mobilized, had better leadership, and superior morale after the first victory. The King of the Nazgul was dead. Sauron had lost three orc armies and one Southron army. So it still looks like a defensive stalemate might have been possible, if the Ring were removed from the equation. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20041216160912.14312.00001759@mb-m13.aol.com> Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Lines: 27 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:41:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1103240467 82.43.126.28 (Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:41:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:41:07 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165694 Russ wrote: >> Stan Brown wrote in >> news:MPG.1c2b93a9b87eb54a98ced5@news.odyssey.net: >>> "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>>> the Rohirrim lost two of their >>>> four leading commanders at the Pelennor, Gondor two of three >>> >>> How do you figure? Gondor's leading commanders were Imrahil, >>> Aragorn, and Faramir, and as far as I know the first two survived >>> the battle and the third was on sick leave. >> >> I mistakenly counted Denethor as a commander, the counterpart of >> Theoden. Aragorn was an independent operator. >> >> Rohan's dead commanders: Theoden (C in C), Grimbold (Westfold?) >> Gondor's wounded commander: Faramir. >> Denethor (C in C), Boromir dead. > > And let's not forget Halbarad, the dour handed Ranger. Or Derufin and Duilin, Horn and Fastred, and Hirluin and all those other names from the poem 'We heard of the horns in the hills ringing...' that I memorised once... Herefara and Herubrand. Think that's it... ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103232381.414139.258850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Lines: 14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:43:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1103240633 82.43.126.28 (Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:43:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:43:53 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165696 jsberry@yahoo.com wrote: > Gandalf was not omniscient, and he was known to BS in arguments > to get his own way. > So it still looks like a defensive stalemate might have been possible, > if the Ring were removed from the equation. Is your name Gandalf? ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Lines: 42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:55:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1103241317 82.43.126.28 (Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:55:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:55:17 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.zanker.org!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165698 NobodyMan wrote: > On 15 Dec 2004 10:12:34 -0800, jsberry@yahoo.com wrote: > >> Gandalf still could have succeded by coordinating the good guys. >> Gandalf organized the elimination of Smaug, killed the Balrog, broke >> Saruman, and saved Rohan (which saved Gondor). Gandalf replaced >> Denethor's leadership with Aragorn. He (indirectly) awoke the Ents. >> That was far from failure. > > Although I credit you in the idea that Gandalf eliminated Smaug, some > of your other statements are dubious at best. But there are several statements throughout the book that Gandalf was "a great mover of the deeds that are done in our time" (to quote Faramir). I don't think you should be so quick to dismiss Gandalf's influence, if not his direct hand, in some of these matters. > I agree that Gandalf did "break" Saruman and in the process saved > Rohan. Rohan really did nothing to 'save Gondor,' though. What do you think Rohan did then? If they hadn't arrived in time, Gandalf would have had to fight the WK, Faramir would have burned with Denethor, much of Minas Tirith might have been destroyed. Aragorn and his army might not have even won at Pelennor, and more armies would have assaulted Gondor from Rohan. > Even if > the entire population of arms capable Rohan folk moved to Minas > Tirith, Gondor still would have fallen to Sauron. His military might > was beyond them. In the long-term, yes. In the short-term, the Rohirrim were vital. It is like the arrival of Eorl to save Cirion's army. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 17 Dec 2004 00:36:31 GMT Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <20041216160912.14312.00001759@mb-m13.aol.com> X-Trace: individual.net U7rlbruj/pSbmW3Te3GrRA5P7W2W0BNDotKxR/S0hYuDkBVJ/N User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165702 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in news:n2pwd.1402$Ar5.1342@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk: > Russ wrote: >>> Stan Brown wrote in >>> news:MPG.1c2b93a9b87eb54a98ced5@news.odyssey.net: >>>> "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>>>> the Rohirrim lost two of their >>>>> four leading commanders at the Pelennor, Gondor two of three >>>> >>>> How do you figure? Gondor's leading commanders were Imrahil, >>>> Aragorn, and Faramir, and as far as I know the first two >>>> survived the battle and the third was on sick leave. >>> >>> I mistakenly counted Denethor as a commander, the counterpart of >>> Theoden. Aragorn was an independent operator. >>> >>> Rohan's dead commanders: Theoden (C in C), Grimbold (Westfold?) >>> Gondor's wounded commander: Faramir. >>> Denethor (C in C), Boromir dead. >> >> And let's not forget Halbarad, the dour handed Ranger. Does he ever appear without that tag? It's like Cletus, the slack- jawed yokel. > Or Derufin and Duilin, Horn and Fastred, and Hirluin and all those > other names from the poem 'We heard of the horns in the hills > ringing...' that I memorised once... > > Herefara and Herubrand. > Think that's it... I've seen an estmate somewhere that Gondor and Rohan lost between a quarter and a third of their entire strength at the Pelennor. Aragorn should have adopted the dynastic name 'Pyrrhus'. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: NobodyMan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103232381.414139.258850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 73 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:08:03 EST Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:08:02 -0500 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!195.185.185.44.MISMATCH!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!atl-c02.usenetserver.com!c03.atl99.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!fe14.usenetserver.com.POSTED!83ce148c!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165709 On 16 Dec 2004 13:26:21 -0800, jsberry@yahoo.com wrote: >OK I was wrong about the Southrons and Easterlings at the Black Gate. >But they would not have put up with failure forever. They were getting >their butts kicked hard up to that point, first by Faramir's band and >then at the Pelenor Fields. At some point, their morale will break and >they will go home. Unlike orcs, they fight for self-interest. When >they do, Sauron's army is night-shift only. Sauron had many other fighters that could fight during the "day" not just men. >I'm not so sure the 3A leaders were weaker than the 2A allies. Aragorn >was a better man than Isildur. Glorfindel killed a Balrog. Elrond >only got more powerful (he could use his ring in the 3A but not in the >2A). Gandalf was a maia, the 2A allies had none. Aragorn vs Isildur is arguable. Neither could hold a candle to Elendil in terms of uniting men under the cause. Many will argue that the Glorifindel that killed a Balrog is NOT the same Glorifindel in LOTR and I won't go there. Elrond's Ring was useless in the battle - even he stated that. The three were not meant to be used as weapons of might. They would be useless in a battle. >The alleged supremacy of Sauron over the allies has two sources, >Denethor and Gandalf. > >Denethor's Palantir did not lie, but it was selective. He could see >Sauron's might but not the allies' might. They had Ents, Eagles, and >the Dead. Rohan DID save Gondor (temporarily anyway). Denethor didn't >know about the Galadrim, Woodelves, and Dwarves. Ents - regional. They could play no part in the battle in Gondor and would have quickly fallen if exposed when Sauron swept to the west. Eagles - small forces compared with Sauron's military might. The dead - mainly worked due to the fear they produced. The Nazgul generated more fear in those around them. The Galadrim - unable to help. They had their own battles they were fighting. Woodelves - Same as the Galadrim. Dwarves - Same as the Galadrim. So where does this help for Gondor come again? >Gandalf was not omniscient, and he was known to BS in arguments to get >his own way. He wanted the Black Gate Gambit to take the Eye off of >Frodo (a good idea) so he said "the next [assault] will be greater." >How did he know??? Because he knew the Palantir couldn't show lies. It only showed what was. He listend to the description of the might Denethor described and knew that Sauron was showing Denethor he hand only sent out the little finger of his body of military might. >And even if the next assault was greater, the result was not a foregone >conclusion. The allies were better prepared, fully mobilized, had >better leadership, and superior morale after the first victory. The >King of the Nazgul was dead. Sauron had lost three orc armies and one >Southron army. The allies were battle weary, whereas the armies they would face were fresh. The forces that Sauron had lost were minimal compared to the whole of his forces. >So it still looks like a defensive stalemate might have been possible, >if the Ring were removed from the equation. NO! Sauron would have easily prevailed. Nobody doubted that. ###### From: NobodyMan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:10:22 EST Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:10:22 -0500 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!atl-c02.usenetserver.com!c03.atl99.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!fe14.usenetserver.com.POSTED!83ce148c!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165710 On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:55:17 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote: >NobodyMan wrote: >> On 15 Dec 2004 10:12:34 -0800, jsberry@yahoo.com wrote: >> >>> Gandalf still could have succeded by coordinating the good guys. >>> Gandalf organized the elimination of Smaug, killed the Balrog, broke >>> Saruman, and saved Rohan (which saved Gondor). Gandalf replaced >>> Denethor's leadership with Aragorn. He (indirectly) awoke the Ents. >>> That was far from failure. >> >> Although I credit you in the idea that Gandalf eliminated Smaug, some >> of your other statements are dubious at best. > >But there are several statements throughout the book that Gandalf was "a >great mover of the deeds that are done in our time" (to quote Faramir). >I don't think you should be so quick to dismiss Gandalf's influence, if >not his direct hand, in some of these matters. I never did! >> I agree that Gandalf did "break" Saruman and in the process saved >> Rohan. Rohan really did nothing to 'save Gondor,' though. > >What do you think Rohan did then? If they hadn't arrived in time, >Gandalf would have had to fight the WK, Faramir would have burned with >Denethor, much of Minas Tirith might have been destroyed. Aragorn and >his army might not have even won at Pelennor, and more armies would have >assaulted Gondor from Rohan. Rohan's assault was failing. It was the arrival of Aragorn, in the supposed "ally ships" of the Corsairs, that turned the battle of Pellenor. >> Even if >> the entire population of arms capable Rohan folk moved to Minas >> Tirith, Gondor still would have fallen to Sauron. His military might >> was beyond them. > >In the long-term, yes. In the short-term, the Rohirrim were vital. It is >like the arrival of Eorl to save Cirion's army. > I would argue that Rohan only delayed victory of the enemy long enough for Aragorn's arrival. It was THAT arrival that turned defeat into victory. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 00:46:38 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 29 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165719 "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Stan Brown wrote in >news:MPG.1c2b93a9b87eb54a98ced5@news.odyssey.net: >> "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>>the Rohirrim lost two of their >>>four leading commanders at the Pelennor, Gondor two of three >> >> How do you figure? Gondor's leading commanders were Imrahil, >> Aragorn, and Faramir, and as far as I know the first two survived >> the battle and the third was on sick leave. > >I mistakenly counted Denethor as a commander, the counterpart of >Theoden. > Denethor (C in C), Boromir dead. Yet you still list him, despite the fact that he (1) wasn't a commander, and (2) didn't fight at the Pelennor battle. As for Boromir ... have you read the book? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 00:51:00 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <20041216160912.14312.00001759@mb-m13.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-08!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165720 "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> Russ wrote: >>> And let's not forget Halbarad, the dour handed Ranger. > >Does he ever appear without that tag? It's like Cletus, the slack- >jawed yokel. He almost never appears _with_ that tag, as far as I can see (one time out of fifteen. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Lines: 42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:01:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.156 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1103274092 172.27.158.156 (Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:01:32 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:01:32 EET Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165729 in , NobodyMan enriched us with: > > On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:55:17 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" > wrote: >> >> NobodyMan wrote: >>> >>> Even if the entire population of arms capable Rohan folk moved >>> to Minas Tirith, Gondor still would have fallen to Sauron. >>> His military might was beyond them. >> >> In the long-term, yes. In the short-term, the Rohirrim were vital. >> It is like the arrival of Eorl to save Cirion's army. >> > I would argue that Rohan only delayed victory of the enemy long enough > for Aragorn's arrival. It was THAT arrival that turned defeat into > victory. I would say that neither force could have been dispensed with. Without the delay and tactical advantage[1] provided by the Rohirrim, Aragorn's forces would have had no chance of turning the battle, but surely Éomer would have died on the Pelennor Fields had Aragorn not arrived when he did. [1] The enemy was in disarray without efficient infrastructure for communicating commands. He had lost his Commander in Chief and at least one other high commanding officer. At the same time the Rohirrim were still a significant force fighting for Aragorn -- a force who had been in the battle for a while and could quickly fill him in on the tactical situation. -- Troels Forchhammer ++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start. - (Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times) ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 17 Dec 2004 10:48:13 GMT Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> X-Trace: individual.net LqfwCp8JBRNllFr8lExOhgtqb0oOn2E0/YcqckvN1nQyXQ6u+D User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165732 Stan Brown wrote in news:MPG.1c2c3cc9b0ae297798cee4@news.odyssey.net: > "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Stan Brown wrote in >>news:MPG.1c2b93a9b87eb54a98ced5@news.odyssey.net: >>> "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>>>the Rohirrim lost two of their >>>>four leading commanders at the Pelennor, Gondor two of three >>> >>> How do you figure? Gondor's leading commanders were Imrahil, >>> Aragorn, and Faramir, and as far as I know the first two survived >>> the battle and the third was on sick leave. >> >>I mistakenly counted Denethor as a commander, the counterpart of >>Theoden. >> Denethor (C in C), Boromir dead. > > Yet you still list him, despite the fact that he (1) wasn't a > commander, and (2) didn't fight at the Pelennor battle. > > As for Boromir ... have you read the book? Which is why I listed them below, tabbed, to show that they were separate from the first line. Sheesh. The post I replied to said that the loss of Sauron's best General showed that Sauron had lost heavily in the Pelennor, and would be lost if the war continued without the Ring factor. I thus listed all the great and good of a similar stature who were lost to the other side as a result of the Pelennor battle. Since Denethor wasn't an active commander (only C in C), I removed him from the first line, which contained Faramir only. But to show the point that Gondor was also running out of Generals, I put in the second line, to show that all three of Gondor's leading lights were either dead or disabled. One would have thought that the loss of the director in chief would be notable, whether or not he stepped onto the field of battle. Many RL Generals directed things from a distance. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 17 Dec 2004 10:51:25 GMT Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> X-Trace: individual.net 7/qxg2juf0cGHnjMUXXhRg1CvTv6ufV3ESmM93bBQAz4/hgZze User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165733 "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in news:Mfxwd.32756$k4.630842@news1.nokia.com: > > [1] The enemy was in disarray without efficient infrastructure for > communicating commands. He had lost his Commander in Chief and at > least one other high commanding officer. Didn't the command fall to Gothmog? Or was he dead by that time? > At the same time the > Rohirrim were still a significant force fighting for Aragorn -- a > force who had been in the battle for a while and could quickly > fill him in on the tactical situation. As opposed to the Haradrim, who seem to have been stunned by Theoden's initial charge. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Lines: 49 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: <5gAwd.32807$k4.631180@news1.nokia.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:26:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.156 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1103286401 172.27.158.156 (Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:26:41 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:26:41 EET Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!nntpfeed.zonnet.nl!feeder1.cambrium.nl!feed.tweaknews.nl!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165737 in , Yuk Tang enriched us with: > > "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in > news:Mfxwd.32756$k4.630842@news1.nokia.com: >> >> [1] The enemy was in disarray without efficient infrastructure for >> communicating commands. He had lost his Commander in Chief and at >> least one other high commanding officer. > > Didn't the command fall to Gothmog? Or was he dead by that time? Yes. "[The Witch-king] was now destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings wtih axes and Variags of Khand. [...]" My impression is that Gothmog were with the reserves, "mustered for the sack of the City", and thus could only assess the situation from there -- that he didn't have a detailed overview of the situation. Still, until the arrival of the forces on the ships, the enemy had a numerical superiority which would eventually have won the day for him; but without the presence of the Rohirrim on the field, Aragorn would also have faced an overwhelmingly superior force -- one that would not have been in disarray (I think it's likely that Gandalf would have defeated the With-king, and that command still would have fallen to Gothmog, but the killings done by the Rohirrim would not have been done, and in particular the enemy would have been in complete control of the Pelennor Fields). >> At the same time the Rohirrim were still a significant force >> fighting for Aragorn -- a force who had been in the battle for >> a while and could quickly fill him in on the tactical situation. > > As opposed to the Haradrim, who seem to have been stunned by Theoden's > initial charge. And in particular by the killing of the chieftain, "the black serpent" (the 'high commanding officer' I mentioned above): "Then all that was left unslain of their cavalry turned and fled far away." -- Troels Forchhammer The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to. - (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods) ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 17 Dec 2004 15:53:37 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 83 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103232381.414139.258850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net oyXR92h4Wd6oana3Pug/igiJqhQpARUaWfnScTvq5mtKnDfozw User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165748 On 16 Dec 2004 13:26:21 -0800, jsberry@yahoo.com wrote: > OK I was wrong about the Southrons and Easterlings at the Black Gate. > But they would not have put up with failure forever. They were getting > their butts kicked hard up to that point, first by Faramir's band and > then at the Pelenor Fields. At some point, their morale will break and > they will go home. Unlike orcs, they fight for self-interest. When > they do, Sauron's army is night-shift only. Some fight for self-interest, some fight because they are told to, and some probably even fight (if they're like the Second Age Men) because they think that Sauron is a god. > > I'm not so sure the 3A leaders were weaker than the 2A allies. Aragorn > was a better man than Isildur. Glorfindel killed a Balrog. Elrond > only got more powerful (he could use his ring in the 3A but not in the > 2A). Gandalf was a maia, the 2A allies had none. Gil-galad was High King of the Noldor, Elendil was a Numenorean before that line began to wane. As to the Three Rings, they were not instruments of war, as Elrond told the Council. > > The alleged supremacy of Sauron over the allies has two sources, > Denethor and Gandalf. > > Denethor's Palantir did not lie, but it was selective. He could see > Sauron's might but not the allies' might. They had Ents, Eagles, and > the Dead. Rohan DID save Gondor (temporarily anyway). Denethor didn't > know about the Galadrim, Woodelves, and Dwarves. Ents, Eagles and Dead were not sufficient to defeat Sauron's forces, and Rohan and Gondor had only been sufficient to fend off the first attack. As to other places of the Free Peoples, they were under assault as well, and even if they proved sufficiently victorious to have some forces left to march to Gondor's aid, just how long would it take to get there. I mean, the Dwarves and Thranduil's folk were weeks away, so only the Galadrim could be of any aid. > > Gandalf was not omniscient, and he was known to BS in arguments to get > his own way. He wanted the Black Gate Gambit to take the Eye off of > Frodo (a good idea) so he said "the next [assault] will be greater." > How did he know??? Because he'd been watching Sauron for generations, and knew that the only hope of defeating Sauron now was the destruction of the Ring. > > And even if the next assault was greater, the result was not a foregone > conclusion. Of course it was. Sauron only had to equal his previous attack and Gondor was finished. > The allies were better prepared, fully mobilized, had > better leadership, and superior morale after the first victory. The > King of the Nazgul was dead. Sauron had lost three orc armies and one > Southron army. And very likely had lots more to come. Remember, Sauron had rushed his forces into that attack on Minas Tirith because he thought that the Heir of Isildur had the Ring. > > So it still looks like a defensive stalemate might have been possible, > if the Ring were removed from the equation. I don't see how it was possible. Gondor had been heavily wounded in the attack, Rohan's strength had been reduced by the war with Saruman. They were toast if another attack came along. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com "Will you kindly explain to me the reasons to debar individuals in certain branches from rising by merit to commissioned rank? If a cook may rise, or a steward, why not an electrical artificer or au ordnance rating or a shipwright? If a telegraphist may rise, why not a painter? Apparently there is no difficulty about painters rising in Germany!" - Winston Churchill ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:23:19 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:23:22 -0800 From: Chris Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041208 Thunderbird/1.0 - [MOOX M3] Mnenhy/0.7 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103232381.414139.258850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.7.185.211 X-Trace: sv3-xqH1QiwHzzwvyuf9ulG+GPkWe0K0Uk31ZB//uCELpgDmokucuOc8hV6fDgCZHHzIikapnb6hYHFJLcp!AvE6nq1gcmVAUHM+drMg3WXQFhgRINZFKKB8Lui0A4iGxMjuZtZ/wns7F7hS X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.cwix.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165750 AC wrote: > On 16 Dec 2004 13:26:21 -0800, jsberry@yahoo.com > wrote: > I don't see how it was possible. Gondor had been heavily wounded in the > attack, Rohan's strength had been reduced by the war with Saruman. They > were toast if another attack came along. However, on the plus side of the column, Sauron had lost his premier general and would have had to either rely on Orcs or Men for the next assault. Both have their drawbacks: Men cannot be trusted, and Orcs were not the sharpest tools in the shed. Also, with the threat of the Corsairs removed, more men would have been able to be raised from the coastlines to swell Gondor's ranks. However, I agree with you in general... the reason that the Ring must be sent to Mordor is that the Council of Elrond see it as the only method of actually winning against Sauron's current forces. Every other route, even if they were able to keep the Ring from Sauron, ended in defeat. So, one must conclude that Fate (Eru) had a hand in the discovery of the Ring. It was not enough that it merely be lost forever, it had to have been found and actively destroyed in order for Sauron to be defeated. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:58:34 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165763 "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >One would have thought that the loss of the director in chief would >be notable, whether or not he stepped onto the field of battle. Many >RL Generals directed things from a distance. Maybe, but it does not follow that everyone who directs things from a distance was a general (or "commander" in your original word). In World war II, Roosevelt direct US military forces from a distance, but he was not a general. If you want to argue that Roosevelt was Commander in Chief, then I direct your attention to Churchill, who was not. In Gondor, as in the US and the UK, the military authority is subordinate to the civilian, though of course the separation is not so clear cut. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 17 Dec 2004 23:14:17 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103232381.414139.258850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net eixsbVCS52xGqss/EM6mDgcBMo29uvNE3QcnSt0zJCeg1nUudA User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165764 On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:23:22 -0800, Chris Anderson wrote: > AC wrote: >> On 16 Dec 2004 13:26:21 -0800, >> jsberry@yahoo.com wrote: > >> I don't see how it was possible. Gondor had been heavily wounded in the >> attack, Rohan's strength had been reduced by the war with Saruman. They >> were toast if another attack came along. > > However, on the plus side of the column, Sauron had lost his premier > general and would have had to either rely on Orcs or Men for the next > assault. Both have their drawbacks: Men cannot be trusted, and Orcs > were not the sharpest tools in the shed. Um, he did have eight other Nazgul, maybe not as tough as the Witch King. > > Also, with the threat of the Corsairs removed, more men would have been > able to be raised from the coastlines to swell Gondor's ranks. Well perhaps, but I still don't think that would be enough. > > However, I agree with you in general... the reason that the Ring must be > sent to Mordor is that the Council of Elrond see it as the only method > of actually winning against Sauron's current forces. Every other route, > even if they were able to keep the Ring from Sauron, ended in defeat. Well, considering that defeat also includes a new Dark Lord who has successfully mastered and claimed the Ring. > > So, one must conclude that Fate (Eru) had a hand in the discovery of the > Ring. It was not enough that it merely be lost forever, it had to have > been found and actively destroyed in order for Sauron to be defeated. I like to think of it as Eru giving a little help here and there, though he clearly needed to do a very big intervention when Gandalf, who had obviously become His chief tool in the final struggle against Sauron, died. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com "Will you kindly explain to me the reasons to debar individuals in certain branches from rising by merit to commissioned rank? If a cook may rise, or a steward, why not an electrical artificer or au ordnance rating or a shipwright? If a telegraphist may rise, why not a painter? Apparently there is no difficulty about painters rising in Germany!" - Winston Churchill ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 17 Dec 2004 23:21:17 GMT Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> X-Trace: individual.net Y9n/rK22Bnj1p53cG4j/OwmMiiBLIZvDCfgqUQTtIgWg0/5TmS User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165767 Stan Brown wrote in news:MPG.1c2d2ea4c958f4ba98ceef@news.odyssey.net: > "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>One would have thought that the loss of the director in chief >>would be notable, whether or not he stepped onto the field of >>battle. Many RL Generals directed things from a distance. > > Maybe, but it does not follow that everyone who directs things > from a distance was a general (or "commander" in your original > word). > > In World war II, Roosevelt direct US military forces from a > distance, but he was not a general. If you want to argue that > Roosevelt was Commander in Chief, then I direct your attention to > Churchill, who was not. > > In Gondor, as in the US and the UK, the military authority is > subordinate to the civilian, though of course the separation is > not so clear cut. Even a civilian C in C who is disabled for whatever reason can throw things into confusion, especially if adequate structures are not in place for a replacement. Witness the breakdown in the Soviet government when Stalin took himself out of the equation during Barbarossa. Imrahil took over in LotR, but who would have taken over from him should he fall and Aragorn not been around? That was my point. Sauron lost his leading General, but Rohan and Gondor lost large chunks of their top ranks, whether directly as a result of the Pelennor or otherwise. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:38:25 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!64.233.160.134.MISMATCH!postnews.google.com!news3.google.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165774 "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >That was my point. Sauron lost his leading General, but Rohan and >Gondor lost large chunks of their top ranks, whether directly as a >result of the Pelennor or otherwise. Silly me; I thought your point was what you actually said. Had you let us know upthread that you actually meant something else, many pixels would have been saved. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:14:31 -0600 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:14:36 -0800 From: Chris Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041208 Thunderbird/1.0 - [MOOX M3] Mnenhy/0.7 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103232381.414139.258850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.7.185.211 X-Trace: sv3-uJldQwZ33Rp87KiMVy68gQU1OmCeEvE3+VsPEC3poe9PC1K6gnuT3It1R4cWsxRRMTZU3ftcqa8hFOY!aAlL4670CBW9brPaKogUj+cZL1t3IYNdhxEkcjvwpFMLQEKM5yZ8Hn8JBp2m X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed7!newsfeed.cwix.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165786 AC wrote: > On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:23:22 -0800, Chris Anderson > wrote: >> However, on the plus side of the column, Sauron had lost his >> premier general and would have had to either rely on Orcs or Men >> for the next assault. Both have their drawbacks: Men cannot be >> trusted, and Orcs were not the sharpest tools in the shed. > Um, he did have eight other Nazgul, maybe not as tough as the Witch > King. I have read somewhere that the other Nazgul didn't have the Witch-King's initiative, although now for the life of me I can't remember the source. >> So, one must conclude that Fate (Eru) had a hand in the discovery >> of the Ring. It was not enough that it merely be lost forever, it >> had to have been found and actively destroyed in order for Sauron >> to be defeated. > I like to think of it as Eru giving a little help here and there, > though he > clearly needed to do a very big intervention when Gandalf, who had obviously > become His chief tool in the final struggle against Sauron, died. A little help here and there, and a small little shove of Gollum over the edge, eh? ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 18 Dec 2004 09:40:23 GMT Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> X-Trace: individual.net LpnZfL4PofVLp3pLPGN8Dw6lu2U6qP7+2+wGCi1Cf7aGHKDxWc User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165787 Stan Brown wrote in news:MPG.1c2d7e4ea8c0bff598cf01@news.odyssey.net: > "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>That was my point. Sauron lost his leading General, but Rohan and >>Gondor lost large chunks of their top ranks, whether directly as a >>result of the Pelennor or otherwise. > > Silly me; I thought your point was what you actually said. > > Had you let us know upthread that you actually meant something > else, many pixels would have been saved. Thanks for telling me what I meant. Perhaps I should refrain from writing, perhaps I should just let you write for me instead. Jsberry wrote (amongst other stuff): 'Sauron lost a large army at the Pelenor, and his best general. ' I wrote (amongst other stuff): 'Even in its utter defeat, that force took away a large part of Gondor and Rohan's combined strength (the Rohirrim lost two of their four leading commanders at the Pelennor, Gondor two of three).' That was in my OP - is that upthread enough for you? I get less snark and more earnestness in aft, OT or not. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 18 Dec 2004 09:42:34 GMT Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103232381.414139.258850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> X-Trace: individual.net EkC5jhNToo+C+KlUVWCWJAaw3qJo2gqaSLJ0n+v0k5wclOmZW+ User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165788 Chris Anderson wrote in news:kLGdndFHz596e17cRVn-hw@comcast.com: > AC wrote: >> >> Um, he did have eight other Nazgul, maybe not as tough as the >> Witch King. > > I have read somewhere that the other Nazgul didn't have the > Witch-King's initiative, although now for the life of me I can't > remember the source. Probably UT. The others apart from Khamul didn't have the same talent for sniffing out the One, but Khamul got confused during the day. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 13:50:02 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 29 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165822 "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I wrote (amongst other stuff): >'Even in its utter defeat, that force took away a large part of >Gondor and Rohan's combined strength (the Rohirrim lost two of their >four leading commanders at the Pelennor, Gondor two of three).' Yes, and I queried which two of three, and you cited Denethor and Boromir neither of whom was even _at_ the Battle of the Pelennor. I understand you can't admit that you posted carelessly; I do it myself sometimes and it _is_ hard to admit. What I don't understand is why you persist in claiming that something obviously wrong was correct, instead of quietly letting it drop. Sorry you think it's "snark" that I don't accept your statement that Denethor and Boromir were commanders who fell at the Pelennor Fields. Welcome back to my kill file. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 18 Dec 2004 22:21:19 GMT Lines: 83 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> X-Trace: individual.net lIdZMQbNCSqwcHNQO7alqwAvFIS8hX4bse3T3NOOx8MvqurOPV User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165833 Stan Brown wrote in news:MPG.1c2e45e972ee0a6598cf10@news.odyssey.net: > "Yuk Tang" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>I wrote (amongst other stuff): >>'Even in its utter defeat, that force took away a large part of >>Gondor and Rohan's combined strength (the Rohirrim lost two of >>their four leading commanders at the Pelennor, Gondor two of >>three).' > > Yes, and I queried which two of three, and you cited Denethor and > Boromir neither of whom was even _at_ the Battle of the Pelennor. Once again, here's my follow up after you pointed it out. SB: 'How do you figure? Gondor's leading commanders were Imrahil, Aragorn, and Faramir, and as far as I know the first two survived the battle and the third was on sick leave.' YT: 'I mistakenly counted Denethor as a commander, the counterpart of Theoden. Aragorn was an independent operator.' [NB. I was counting figures of a similar stature to the Witchking, which Imrahil wasn't] YT: 'Rohan's dead commanders: Theoden (C in C), Grimbold (Westfold?)' 'Gondor's wounded commander: Faramir.' ' Denethor (C in C), Boromir dead.' [NB. There is a tab before the second line, to show the leaders unavailable to Gondor, but who are either civilian (Denethor) or died elsewhere (Boromir). The latter two are also listed on a separate line, to make the point clearer. I even explained this in a subsequent post, only for the explanation to be ignored]. Subsequent post: SB: 'Yet you still list him, despite the fact that he (1) wasn't a commander, and (2) didn't fight at the Pelennor battle. As for Boromir ... have you read the book?' YT: 'Which is why I listed them below, tabbed, to show that they were separate from the first line.' > I understand you can't admit that you posted carelessly; I do it > myself sometimes and it _is_ hard to admit. > > What I don't understand is why you persist in claiming that > something obviously wrong was correct, instead of quietly letting > it drop. I accepted my error in my first post, then corrected it in a subsequent post. When you pointed out an apparent error in the second post, I explained my reasoning. > Sorry you think it's "snark" that I don't accept your statement > that Denethor and Boromir were commanders who fell at the Pelennor > Fields. Further down from my third post. YT: 'The post I replied to said that the loss of Sauron's best General showed that Sauron had lost heavily in the Pelennor, and would be lost if the war continued without the Ring factor. I thus listed all the great and good of a similar stature who were lost to the other side as a result of the Pelennor battle. Since Denethor wasn't an active commander (only C in C), I removed him from the first line, which contained Faramir only. But to show the point that Gondor was also running out of Generals, I put in the second line, to show that all three of Gondor's leading lights were either dead or disabled.' It seems pretty clear that I _didn't_ say that Denethor and Boromir were commanders who fell at the Pelennor Fields. > Welcome back to my kill file. Thank you. Dunno why you decided to take a dislike to me in this thread, when I've accepted corrections where due and explained my thinking when they weren't. Fairly reasonable behaviour, I would have thought. But you obviously disagree. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Lines: 28 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:22:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1103757746 82.43.126.28 (Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:22:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:22:26 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166116 Stan Brown wrote: > In Gondor, as in the US and the UK, the military authority is > subordinate to the civilian, though of course the separation is not > so clear cut. Do you mean the fact that Denethor was girt with a sword and dressed for battle? Or the political structure of a council in Minas Tirith? I got the impression that though Denethor had that council, that he was 'master' of it. And I still saw that as military, not civilian power. "...the Lord of the City was master of his Council, and he was in no mood that day to bow to others. Early in the morning the Council had been summoned. There all the captains judged that because of the threat in the South their force was too weak to make any stroke of war on their own part..." (The Siege of Gondor) Are you saying here that Denethor is a civilian? I always got the impression that he is a general here, albeit not a battlefield one. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103232381.414139.258850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Lines: 28 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:28:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1103758122 82.43.126.28 (Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:28:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:28:42 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166117 Chris Anderson wrote: > AC wrote: >> I like to think of it as Eru giving a little help here and there, > A little help here and there, and a small little shove of Gollum over > the edge, eh? Not really. The way I see it, Gollum was so obsessed by the Ring, and so overjoyed to get it back, that he failed to look where he was stepping and fell over the edge: "...even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far..." (Mount Doom) No need for any shoving. "Evil will, will evil mar", and "with his own weapons was he worsted" and all that. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103232381.414139.258850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Lines: 35 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:36:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.126.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1103758607 82.43.126.28 (Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:36:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:36:47 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166120 Chris Anderson wrote: > Also, with the threat of the Corsairs removed, more men would have > been able to be raised from the coastlines to swell Gondor's ranks. This actually happened: "New strength is on the way from the southern fiefs, now that the coasts have been rid. Four thousands I sent marching from Pelargir through Lossarnach two days ago; and Angbor the fearless rides before them. If we set out in two days more, they will draw nigh ere we depart. Moreover many were bidden to follow me up the River in any craft they could gather; and with this wind they will soon be at hand, indeed several ships have already come to the Harlond." (Aragorn speaking at 'The Last Debate') But Gandalf and Imrahil are not fooled: Gandalf: "Victory cannot be achieved by arms, whether you sit here to endure siege after siege, or march out to be overwhelmed beyond the River." Imrahil: (laughing) "Surely, this is the greatest jest in all the history of Gondor: that we should ride with seven thousands, scarce as many as the vanguard of its army in the days of its power, to assail the mountains and the impenetrable gate of the Black Land!" Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:26:22 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 48 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166167 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Stan Brown wrote: >> In Gondor, as in the US and the UK, the military authority is >> subordinate to the civilian, though of course the separation is not >> so clear cut. > >Do you mean the fact that Denethor was girt with a sword and dressed for >battle? Not so much. I mean that in a semi-feudal society, the military commanders are nearly all members of the aristocracy, which also runs civil society. Think England or France until around 1700: it was quite unusual for a commoner to command an army or an important fleet. Even a hundred years later, outside of the US and revolutionary France, quite a lot of armies were commanded by the nobility. I don't attach much significance to Denethor's putting on a sword and armor. In wartime in Real Life, the monarch usually wears a military or naval uniform; Denethor was acting monarch. Nobody expected George VI to fight in WW2 despite the uniform, and nobody expected Denethor to command his armies personally. (The difference is that Denethor was a near dictator, and George VI was a figurehead.) Denethor's Council was a war council, and he appeared in battle dress. >Or the political structure of a council in Minas Tirith? I got >the impression that though Denethor had that council, that he was >'master' of it. And I still saw that as military, not civilian power. > >Are you saying here that Denethor is a civilian? I always got the >impression that he is a general here, albeit not a battlefield one. I see Denethor as a civilian, but his sons as military commanders; just as Elizabeth II is a civilian though two of her sons were commissioned officers and one served in battle. In WW2, Roosevelt and Churchill and Stalin were all civilians even though they gave military orders to the generals. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 23 Dec 2004 15:41:14 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103232381.414139.258850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net NgvIrHjI9mCTnTfTj4PsswJ0JPjswVmEglXXsRU6GGQkIcGSJQ User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166187 On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:36:47 GMT, Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > Chris Anderson wrote: > > > >> Also, with the threat of the Corsairs removed, more men would have >> been able to be raised from the coastlines to swell Gondor's ranks. > > This actually happened: > > "New strength is on the way from the southern fiefs, now that the coasts > have been rid. Four thousands I sent marching from Pelargir through > Lossarnach two days ago; and Angbor the fearless rides before them. If > we set out in two days more, they will draw nigh ere we depart. Moreover > many were bidden to follow me up the River in any craft they could > gather; and with this wind they will soon be at hand, indeed several > ships have already come to the Harlond." (Aragorn speaking at 'The Last > Debate') > > But Gandalf and Imrahil are not fooled: > > Gandalf: "Victory cannot be achieved by arms, whether you sit here to > endure siege after siege, or march out to be overwhelmed beyond the > River." > > Imrahil: (laughing) "Surely, this is the greatest jest in all the > history of Gondor: that we should ride with seven thousands, scarce as > many as the vanguard of its army in the days of its power, to assail the > mountains and the impenetrable gate of the Black Land!" Ah yes, seven thousand men. If that was the combined might of Gondor and Rohan, then if the Ring had not been taken into the Fire, I expect that that final battle before the Morannon would have been very short and very nasty, and even if the Captains of the West had survived it, how long before Sauron simply marched more of his strength to meet a weakened force. It seems to me that Tolkien is going out of his way here to indicate that a military victory over Sauron was impossible to achieve, and that the only outcome of any military engagement was victory for Sauron. Gondor had survived the one strike, but would not survive another. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 23 Dec 2004 15:46:18 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 62 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net /QNRBbGyrDVImnS8iG7XOwxE3jWERA+Rk8IE5joX67Fnzzi6rv User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166189 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:26:22 -0500, Stan Brown wrote: > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Stan Brown wrote: >>> In Gondor, as in the US and the UK, the military authority is >>> subordinate to the civilian, though of course the separation is not >>> so clear cut. >> >>Do you mean the fact that Denethor was girt with a sword and dressed for >>battle? > > Not so much. I mean that in a semi-feudal society, the military > commanders are nearly all members of the aristocracy, which also runs > civil society. Think England or France until around 1700: it was > quite unusual for a commoner to command an army or an important > fleet. Even a hundred years later, outside of the US and > revolutionary France, quite a lot of armies were commanded by the > nobility. Well, the lines between military and civilian were quite a bit different in medieval times. The notion of a professional army was, to one degree or another, lost in much of Europe after the fall of Rome. These things did exist, of course, but for the most part noblemen would produce armies by selecting those in their charge, and thus the nobility did serve a martial function. It wasn't until the formation of large standing armies (made possible by the rise of the nation states) that we started to see a more concrete division between civilian and soldier. > > I don't attach much significance to Denethor's putting on a sword and > armor. In wartime in Real Life, the monarch usually wears a military > or naval uniform; Denethor was acting monarch. Nobody expected George > VI to fight in WW2 despite the uniform, and nobody expected Denethor > to command his armies personally. (The difference is that Denethor > was a near dictator, and George VI was a figurehead.) Denethor's > Council was a war council, and he appeared in battle dress. Well I think there is some significance. Denethor was a military leader in the feudal style, the ruler of his people in peace, and their commander in war. It's pretty obvious to me at least that Gondor was a feudal state, with the same sort of system of allegiances. > >>Or the political structure of a council in Minas Tirith? I got >>the impression that though Denethor had that council, that he was >>'master' of it. And I still saw that as military, not civilian power. >> >>Are you saying here that Denethor is a civilian? I always got the >>impression that he is a general here, albeit not a battlefield one. > > I see Denethor as a civilian, but his sons as military commanders; > just as Elizabeth II is a civilian though two of her sons were > commissioned officers and one served in battle. In WW2, Roosevelt and > Churchill and Stalin were all civilians even though they gave > military orders to the generals. You are bringing up modern examples; the modern monarchy and modern political leaders. Those don't fit terribly well into a feudal system. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:12:52 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103232381.414139.258850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.space.net!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166202 "AC" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Ah yes, seven thousand men. If that was the combined might of Gondor and >Rohan, then if the Ring had not been taken into the Fire, I expect that that >final battle before the Morannon would have been very short and very nasty, And the Captains thought the same thing. As far as they knew, they were going to almost certain death on the mere possibility that they might distract Sauron's attention from the Ring-bearer I think in the past I have not appreciated the courage and self- sacrifice they displayed. Sure, they ended up surviving, but at the start they had no real hope they'd see another day. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:14:43 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166203 "AC" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:26:22 -0500, >Stan Brown wrote: >You are bringing up modern examples; the modern monarchy and modern >political leaders. Those don't fit terribly well into a feudal system. Edward III of England in the 13th century -- feudal enough for you? He didn't fight in the later years of his reign, but still directed the activities of his armies by delegating to noble commanders. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 23 Dec 2004 18:58:13 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1103134354.649200.117480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net meu67J2AKi0mX9rN+nt5vg7YGNJc51noOSacGks9wNqo6LfOoR User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166207 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:14:43 -0500, Stan Brown wrote: > "AC" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:26:22 -0500, >>Stan Brown wrote: >>You are bringing up modern examples; the modern monarchy and modern >>political leaders. Those don't fit terribly well into a feudal system. > > Edward III of England in the 13th century -- feudal enough for you? > He didn't fight in the later years of his reign, but still directed > the activities of his armies by delegating to noble commanders. However, other kings after him did lead armies into battle. I believe the last monarch to do so was King George II in 1743 at the Battle of Dettingen. It's just my feeling that it is difficult to map modern notions of civilian or martial arenas into a feudal society, with its complex allegiances. The Fall of Rome put an end for over a thousand years to the idea of a large-scale professional army with promotion through the ranks. I'm sure there are examples of this during Medieval times, but that the norm was quite different, and that nobility had their obligations to those above them and below them to function as military commanders. It was only when feudalism finally failed and the European nation states developed did we start to see a return to the more Roman ideal of standing armies of professional soldiers, with the idea of promotion through the ranks to produce the best commanders. Of couse, like all things in history, there's no nice dividing line (there are always exceptions to the rule, and one has to judge in trends), and as late as WWI we can see Nicholas II of Russia behaving as if he was a military commander (with disasterous results). To bring this all back on topic, I do think one can view Denethor as a military figure, because my observations (based upon limited data) are that Gondor is a feudal state with nobility serving the function of military commanders in times of war or strife. There were no generals or field marshalls, merely lords who had armories which they would use to arm the guys that the day before were tending the fields. I'm sure the noblemen, like Denethor with the elite guards in Minas Tirith, had their cadres of professional soldiers (probably knights and other lower nobility) but there was, from top to bottom, no real notion of civilian or martial authorities. If it was peacetime, Denethor and the other nobles of Gondor were essentially civilian authorities, but when there was war, there was simply a transition to a martial hiearchy, and it wasn't even so much a transition but merely another part of their role in the Gondorian feudal society, obligations up and down the hierarchy. I think this is made very clear when Pippin sees the various noblemen of Gondor lead their men into Minas Tirith. These were feudal lords fulfilling their martial obligations to Denethor, who as highest authority (no separation between civilian and military authority here, simply position in the hierarchy), could demand it of them (though in Tolkien's story they are very willing, while in reality feudal lords weren't always so keen to help their betters). -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: dasulliv@cs.indiana.edu (Damien R. Sullivan) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 07:24:59 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Murray's Mud Minions Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: piano.cs.indiana.edu X-Trace: hood.uits.indiana.edu 1104132299 29975 129.79.245.40 (27 Dec 2004 07:24:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-admin@indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 07:24:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!canoe.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.indiana.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166344 mightymartianca@hotmail.com wrote: >It's just my feeling that it is difficult to map modern notions of civilian >or martial arenas into a feudal society, with its complex allegiances. The I think that's where people stumble on thinking of Gondor as a feudal society: it doesn't feel like a complex allegiances society. It feels like *Gondor*, a state which has been mostly stable for 3000 years, even without a king, and which goes directly back to a realm (Numenor) which goes back another 3000 years and probably wasn't that feudal either. I don't recall the Tale of Years mentioning the Kings or Stewards having to put down rebellious nobles, or being threatened by noble castles. If this is feudalism, it's not a version with a history matching that of real feudalism. Or a history matching anything else in the real world. Nothing on Earth was as stable as Gondor or even Arnor. Yeah, there was the Kin-strife, and the breakup of the Northern Kingdom; these are real world elements. But they're stretched out on an ahistorical timescale. The 1600 years of Arnor and then Arthedain would cover the time from the fall of Rome to now. Egypt and China have been around a long time, but not as stable governments; both had lots of violent dynastic changes. Ditto for Rome, though maybe the Byzantines were more stable; I don't know them well. Japan might be closer to a single dynastic line, but often without power, and for less than 2000 years. If Gondor *was* feudalistic, it must have been a feudalism which worked the way it was meant to, rather than the way it really did. But I'm unconvinced it was meant to model Western European feudalism. Byzantium with less politics seems like a better model -- continuity with an older realm, literate government, bulwark against a menace to the East... -xx- Damien X-) ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 27 Dec 2004 17:54:48 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net mcuPRvORpY8Y7EkFdLTbTg1KU/JZ6g5XS5ZjSg4H3huHukcKLz User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166375 On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 07:24:59 +0000 (UTC), Damien R. Sullivan wrote: > mightymartianca@hotmail.com wrote: > >>It's just my feeling that it is difficult to map modern notions of civilian >>or martial arenas into a feudal society, with its complex allegiances. The > > I think that's where people stumble on thinking of Gondor as a feudal society: > it doesn't feel like a complex allegiances society. It feels like *Gondor*, a > state which has been mostly stable for 3000 years, even without a king, and > which goes directly back to a realm (Numenor) which goes back another 3000 > years and probably wasn't that feudal either. I don't recall the Tale of > Years mentioning the Kings or Stewards having to put down rebellious nobles, > or being threatened by noble castles. If this is feudalism, it's not a > version with a history matching that of real feudalism. Or a history matching > anything else in the real world. Nothing on Earth was as stable as Gondor or > even Arnor. Yeah, there was the Kin-strife, and the breakup of the Northern > Kingdom; these are real world elements. But they're stretched out on an > ahistorical timescale. The 1600 years of Arnor and then Arthedain would cover > the time from the fall of Rome to now. > > Egypt and China have been around a long time, but not as stable governments; > both had lots of violent dynastic changes. Ditto for Rome, though maybe the > Byzantines were more stable; I don't know them well. Japan might be closer to > a single dynastic line, but often without power, and for less than 2000 years. > > If Gondor *was* feudalistic, it must have been a feudalism which worked the > way it was meant to, rather than the way it really did. But I'm unconvinced > it was meant to model Western European feudalism. Byzantium with less > politics seems like a better model -- continuity with an older realm, literate > government, bulwark against a menace to the East... Gondor did have severe moments; the Kinstrife comes to mind. It's very clear that Gondor was divided between some fairly high ranking noblemen. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:06:09 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166449 "Damien R. Sullivan" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >If Gondor *was* feudalistic, it must have been a feudalism which worked the >way it was meant to, rather than the way it really did. But I'm unconvinced >it was meant to model Western European feudalism. Byzantium with less >politics seems like a better model -- continuity with an older realm, literate >government, bulwark against a menace to the East... IIRC, governors in the Byzantine Empire dd not pass their position on to their sons. In Gondor it seems that the southern fiefs did have hereditary rulers -- though I agree with you that it stretched credulity to think they would none of them have rebelled in three millennia. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What if the ring had not been found? Date: 29 Dec 2004 06:24:45 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <41c068fe$0$7078$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net rOnR/4crXk5a94qX2zIIgAo9U65VNA6rWjo29P1jI5ELO9ZFCo User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166461 On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:06:09 -0500, Stan Brown wrote: > "Damien R. Sullivan" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>If Gondor *was* feudalistic, it must have been a feudalism which worked the >>way it was meant to, rather than the way it really did. But I'm unconvinced >>it was meant to model Western European feudalism. Byzantium with less >>politics seems like a better model -- continuity with an older realm, literate >>government, bulwark against a menace to the East... > > IIRC, governors in the Byzantine Empire dd not pass their position on > to their sons. In Gondor it seems that the southern fiefs did have > hereditary rulers -- though I agree with you that it stretched > credulity to think they would none of them have rebelled in three > millennia. Well, the Corsairs were essentially rebel Numenoreans. We're talking about an author who described what I find an impossible state; the Shire. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com