From: "MattDP" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: 16 Dec 2004 01:50:13 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.66.176.18 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1103190620 1874 127.0.0.1 (16 Dec 2004 09:50:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:50:20 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: G2/0.2 Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=194.66.176.18; posting-account=bIZwewwAAADvv2EA07S1QBsk7avac4h5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!zendas.de!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!64.233.160.134.MISMATCH!postnews.google.com!c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165622 Hi, Forgive me any inaccuracies in this post. I don't have a copy of the relevant literature to hand. I seem to remember from the Silm (or elsewhere) that Sauron was described as being a Maia of the "folk" of Aule, and that's partly why he had the requiste knowledge of smithing to craft the rings. I also seem to remember that there are other references to Maia belonging to the "folk" of one or other of the Valar. Again, IIRC, Melkor is described as being the Vala of ice and fire. Clearly the Balrogs are spirits of fire. On the basis of this, I have always assumed that the Balrogs were the "folk" of Melkor who chose to fall into evil with him yet there is no direct evidence that I'm aware of that Tolkien ever conceived this as being the case. Is my assumption valid, and is there any other textual evidence to shed light on the matter? ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: 16 Dec 2004 15:41:59 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net A6O9SoRJWrCjqX5CZPBT8w0s7oi79sDwm3i5IvA2XMhu9LQEAA User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165635 On 16 Dec 2004 01:50:13 -0800, MattDP wrote: > Hi, > > Forgive me any inaccuracies in this post. I don't have a copy of the > relevant literature to hand. > > I seem to remember from the Silm (or elsewhere) that Sauron was > described as being a Maia of the "folk" of Aule, and that's partly why > he had the requiste knowledge of smithing to craft the rings. I also > seem to remember that there are other references to Maia belonging to > the "folk" of one or other of the Valar. > > Again, IIRC, Melkor is described as being the Vala of ice and fire. Tolkien makes it pretty clear that Melkor had something of the gifts of all the Ainur. That is in part, I presume, what made him the most powerful of them. I do recall that of all the Valar, Aule was the most like Melkor, if that tells you anything. > Clearly the Balrogs are spirits of fire. On the basis of this, I have > always assumed that the Balrogs were the "folk" of Melkor who chose to > fall into evil with him yet there is no direct evidence that I'm aware > of that Tolkien ever conceived this as being the case. > > Is my assumption valid, and is there any other textual evidence to shed > light on the matter? Well, the Ainur that served Melkor were corrupted by him, so I don't know if that means some of those Maiar were initially of his folk or not, or whether Melkor even had any folk in the beginning. In the Ainulindale, I get the feeling that, in the Timeless Halls, he was something of a loner. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com "Will you kindly explain to me the reasons to debar individuals in certain branches from rising by merit to commissioned rank? If a cook may rise, or a steward, why not an electrical artificer or au ordnance rating or a shipwright? If a telegraphist may rise, why not a painter? Apparently there is no difficulty about painters rising in Germany!" - Winston Churchill ###### From: "Zimri" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 70.240.236.185 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr11.news.prodigy.com 1103347042 ST000 70.240.236.185 (Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:17:22 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:17:22 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: TSU[@I_A\S@GSR\X\JINOPTDFZ\@@FXLM@TDOCQDJ@_@FNHBK^RAQFW[ML\THRCKV^GGZKJMGV^^_JSCFFUA_QXFGVSCYRPILH]TRVKC^LSN@DX_HCAFX__@J\DAJBVMY\ZWZCZLPA^MVH_P@\\EOMW\YSXHG__IJQY_@M[A[[AXQ_XDSTAR]\PG]NVAQUVM Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 05:17:22 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr11.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!1dccac64!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165776 "AC" wrote in message news:slrncs3b67.1qt.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net... > On 16 Dec 2004 01:50:13 -0800, > MattDP wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Forgive me any inaccuracies in this post. I don't have a copy of the >> relevant literature to hand. >> >> I seem to remember from the Silm (or elsewhere) that Sauron was >> described as being a Maia of the "folk" of Aule, and that's partly why >> he had the requiste knowledge of smithing to craft the rings. I also >> seem to remember that there are other references to Maia belonging to >> the "folk" of one or other of the Valar. >> >> Again, IIRC, Melkor is described as being the Vala of ice and fire. > > Tolkien makes it pretty clear that Melkor had something of the gifts of > all > the Ainur. That is in part, I presume, what made him the most powerful of > them. I do recall that of all the Valar, Aule was the most like Melkor, > if > that tells you anything. Yeah, it tells me that Tolkien is borrowing from the belief that Lucifer's opposite isn't God but Michael. CS Lewis referred to this in "Screwtape Letters" IIRC. It is, I think, standard Christian orthodoxy. -- zimriel sbc dot at global net . http://pages.sbcglobal.net/zimriel/ *new improved shorter .sig* ###### From: rdwillia@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Richard Williams) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:53:23 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BIOSCI/MRC Rosalind Franklin Centre for Genomics Research Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bromine.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk X-Trace: helium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk 1103583203 14193 193.62.192.35 (20 Dec 2004 22:53:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@net.bio.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:53:23 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!dedekind.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!hamilton.zen.co.uk!193.60.199.26.MISMATCH!feed4.jnfs.ja.net!feed3.jnfs.ja.net!jnfs.ja.net!rfcgr.mrc.ac.uk!rdwillia Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165960 In article , AC wrote: >Well, the Ainur that served Melkor were corrupted by him, so I don't know if >that means some of those Maiar were initially of his folk or not, or whether >Melkor even had any folk in the beginning. In the Ainulindale, I get the >feeling that, in the Timeless Halls, he was something of a loner. Valaquenta has: "For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror." So it sounds like at least some of the 'horrid crew' went way back to when Melkor was the Archangel To Be Seen With. Even as far back as the Music "some began to attune their music to his [Melkor's] rather than to the thought which they had at first". But before this he does seem to have been a loner ("being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren"). Richard. ###### From: "Jordan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: 20 Dec 2004 16:02:09 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 66 Message-ID: <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.197.86.6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1103587335 3784 127.0.0.1 (21 Dec 2004 00:02:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:02:15 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: User-Agent: G2/0.2 Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=63.197.86.6; posting-account=_Vd1LwwAAADqbRZdD9RbtSNLNjZsPzrX Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165970 Richard Williams wrote: > > So it sounds like at least some of the 'horrid crew' went way back to when > Melkor was the Archangel To Be Seen With. Even as far back as the Music > "some began to attune their music to his [Melkor's] rather than to the > thought which they had at first". But before this he does seem to have > been a loner ("being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own > unlike those of his brethren"). Melkor was, in many ways, a standard Tolkienian character writ large: the Brilliant Artisan Corrupted By Pride In His Own Craft. Other such characters in Tolkien would be Feanor, Sauron, and Saruman. What is particularly ironic about this is that Feanor proved Morgoth's indirect nemesis, in that his response to Morgoth's slaying of his father and theft of his gems started the sequence of events that led to the War of Wrath. Admittedly, about half a millennium later, but to the Ainur half a millennium is not a very long time. Miltonian Satanic characters of this sort tend not to cooperate very well. Saruman, for instance, betrayed _both_ the Valar and Sauron, and I think the fanfics that show Sauron chafing under Morgoth's orders but afraid of his superior power get the relationship perfectly correct. I wonder how Feanor would have reacted to the developments of the Second and Third Age, if he'd lived that long. Certainly, he would have been furious at the spectacle of the Men gaining dominion of the world and displacing the Elves. "See! I told you so!" The Balrogs were "spirits of fire." I notice reading the list of the Valar that there are obvious air, water, and earth elemental Powers (Manwe, Ulmo, and Aule + Yavanna sharing the two aspects of earth as unliving and fruitful), but there is no fire elemental. Maybe Melkor was supposed to be the fire spirit but he demanded control of more than just that element. (if you consider _five_ elements, and in real physics there are five elements, Varda is obviously the plasma elemental, because she is the Star-Kindler). In any case, if Melkor was the fire Power, then obviously the Balrogs were recruited from the Maiar that were supposed to serve him -- they would have been the "closest" to him in the no-space no-time that preceded the Creation, when all was magic and nothing any physics we comprehend -- and the most easily corrupted. The ability to subvert Maiar from Aule's service is easily explained. Aule is a power of earth and craft, and most such crafts _require_ fire. Sauron, as a master smith under Aule, would have been strongly drawn to his power. I recommend, in connection with Sauron's corruption, a fanfic entitled "A Veiled Fire" on the Henneth story archive. It presents a highly plausible picture of his personality, seen through the eyes of the Maiar who would have wed him had he not turned to evil, and of both the good and the evil sides of his character. Sincerely Yours, Jordan ###### From: "DylanBD" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:08:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.101.210.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net 1103587732 67.101.210.161 (Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:08:52 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:08:52 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!cbe2cf57!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165971 "Jordan" wrote: > The Balrogs were "spirits of fire." I notice reading the list of the > Valar that there are obvious air, water, and earth elemental Powers > (Manwe, Ulmo, and Aule + Yavanna sharing the two aspects of earth as > unliving and fruitful), but there is no fire elemental. Maybe Melkor > was supposed to be the fire spirit but he demanded control of more than > just that element. No, it's stated that Melkor was the "little bit of everything" guy. Fire shows up in connection with a lot of Valar--the sun and moon, for example, have their origins with Yavanna, Varda kindles the stars, Aule has vulcanism etc etc. Tolkien doesn't seem to pay much attention to the classical elements -- the Three Rings are missing earth, for example. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:15:24 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165978 "Jordan" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >(if you consider _five_ elements, and in real physics there are five >elements, Huh? _Real_ physics has a hundred elements, more or less. How is "five" any more or less close to real physics than "four". -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: "DylanBD" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: <4OMxd.4455$9j5.2522@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 03:31:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.101.210.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net 1103599872 67.101.210.161 (Mon, 20 Dec 2004 19:31:12 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 19:31:12 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!cbe2cf57!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:165980 "Stan Brown" wrote: > "Jordan" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>(if you consider _five_ elements, and in real physics there are five >>elements, > > Huh? _Real_ physics has a hundred elements, more or less. How is > "five" any more or less close to real physics than "four". Three of the four classical elements correspond roughly to the three common states of matter: gas, solid, and liquid. In very high-energy states (like in the sun) gas atoms lose their electrons and become strongly ionized nuclei, which is called plasma and could reasonably correspond to the element of fire. So you have the four elements reappearing in modern physics as four states of matter. Number five is energy, on the theory that all matter is a form of energy. Now you know. ###### From: Troels Forchhammer Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: 21 Dec 2004 10:45:38 GMT Organization: Hogwarts Library Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <4OMxd.4455$9j5.2522@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net 5C/uqpLPORiyK9AgCxrKwwB0k4mByms5DfNlwXQ43+oDtrs7aA User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 X-Face: "Rt@v9]z5%&{}CPvx9[[dd!0V;NzH~|$@#;V"K4i{YbxWjfz]mC2l58XKtr\D58h*!j\LqJJ{04fO\KD2NzCYZXs~$2J(yKvlS "DylanBD" enriched us with: > > Three of the four classical elements correspond roughly to the > three common states of matter: gas, solid, and liquid. [..] > plasma and could reasonably correspond to the element of fire. So > you have the four elements reappearing in modern physics as four > states of matter. Clever ;-) I'll admit, though, that the use of 'elements' to describe the situation in modern physics confused me as well. > Number five is energy, on the theory that all matter is a form of > energy. I'm having a bit more problems with that one. Unless I am mistaken there is no 'energy state' anywhere. Energy must take a form, which might be matter, but which might also be motion or be contained in a field (it's very likely that they've found a new interaction since I graduated, so I'll not even attempt to list them all ). The energy contained in one form can be converted into another form, including matter, but this would mean that this 'fifth state' exists in several varieties (plus that we begin to consider everything as matter, while my impression is that it is more common to consider everything as expressions of energy, but that's probably a more philosophical concern). -- Troels Forchhammer Valid mail is Love while you've got love to give. Live while you've got life to live. - Piet Hein, /Memento Vivere/ ###### From: "Bruce Tucker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 11:17:37 -0500 Organization: LexisNexis, Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <4OMxd.4455$9j5.2522@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.121.40.32 X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 1103645853 18556 10.121.40.32 (21 Dec 2004 16:17:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@lexisnexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:17:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed2.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!nntp.abs.net!ash.uu.net!lexisnexis.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166011 "Troels Forchhammer" wrote > In message > > "DylanBD" enriched us with: > > Number five is energy, on the theory that all matter is a form of > > energy. > > I'm having a bit more problems with that one. Unless I am mistaken > there is no 'energy state' anywhere. Energy must take a form, which > might be matter, but which might also be motion or be contained in a > field (it's very likely that they've found a new interaction since I > graduated, so I'll not even attempt to list them all ). That actually dovetails nicely with the widespread occult or magical notion that the fifth element is spirit (no, Luc Besson did NOT come up with that notion). One could draw a very rough parallel between the role of spirit in magical world-views and that of energy in the model favored by our science. Spirit is, to the magical mind, what animates matter and makes it behave in the ways we observe, and in fact, many see matter as illusory and simply a reflection of the underlying spiritual reality within the limits of the material world (just as matter is really a particular expression of energy bound into certain dimensions). However, I think Jordan got a little mixed up - he counted plasma twice; once as a separate element (for Varda), and once as the energy-state corresponding to fire. If Melkor was the "Vala of fire", he would correspond to plasma as well since we're assuming a correspondence between the state of matter plasma and the element fire. Varda would clearly be associated with the element of air; the essential nature of stars in a magical universe seems to be pretty well universally regarded as being a component of the heavens, not a simple fiery phenomenon (or as I believe C.S. Lewis more or less put it, massive balls of hot incandescent gas is what they're made of, not what they *are*). It seems clear to me that there was no Ainu or Vala associated with spirit/energy, or "the Flame Imperishable", because that was Eru's province alone. -- Bruce Tucker disintegration ta mindspring.com ###### From: Troels Forchhammer Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: 21 Dec 2004 21:09:47 GMT Organization: Hogwarts Library Lines: 65 Message-ID: References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <4OMxd.4455$9j5.2522@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net 9nOA/Xu70oiuBnNFAQKbVw0t5zxEE2ZAQVsiNF2GGD3wl9RoS0 User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 X-Face: "Rt@v9]z5%&{}CPvx9[[dd!0V;NzH~|$@#;V"K4i{YbxWjfz]mC2l58XKtr\D58h*!j\LqJJ{04fO\KD2NzCYZXs~$2J(yKvlS "Bruce Tucker" enriched us with: > > However, I think Jordan got a little mixed up - he counted plasma > twice; once as a separate element (for Varda), and once as the > energy-state corresponding to fire. If Melkor was the "Vala of > fire", he would correspond to plasma as well since we're assuming > a correspondence between the state of matter plasma and the > element fire. Yes, I noticed that as well. > Varda would clearly be associated with the element of air; I think that would have been Manwë -- the eagles and winds and all. > the essential nature of stars in a magical universe seems to be > pretty well universally regarded as being a component of the > heavens, not a simple fiery phenomenon And in the Aristotelian (sp?) description the fifth element was confined to the spheres of the stars -- the stars were made of the fifth element. I think a reflection of this might be seen in some of what Tolkien wrote in Myths Transformed -- not only about Varda being the starkindler (something he seems to have had some troubles porting to his new cosmogonic myth), but in particular in text II: "To Varda Ilúvatar said: 'I will give unto thee a parting gift. Thou shalt take into Eä a light that is holy, coming new from Me, unsullied by the thought and lust of Melkor, [...]" IIRC Aristotle thought that the stars were, if not holy, then at least of a higher nature than the elements of earth, and that was why they alone had a circular proper motion. If we should assign classic elements to the Valar, I think that Varda would be the Valië of the quintessence. > (or as I believe C.S. Lewis more or less put it, massive balls > of hot incandescent gas is what they're made of, not what they > *are*). ;-) > It seems clear to me that there was no Ainu or Vala associated > with spirit/energy, or "the Flame Imperishable", because that was > Eru's province alone. Right. -- Troels Forchhammer Valid mail is Love while you've got love to give. Live while you've got life to live. - Piet Hein, /Memento Vivere/ ###### From: "Jordan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: 21 Dec 2004 13:31:53 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 41 Message-ID: <1103664713.217452.84580@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.197.86.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1103664737 27847 127.0.0.1 (21 Dec 2004 21:32:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:32:17 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: G2/0.2 Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com; posting-host=63.197.86.4; posting-account=_Vd1LwwAAADqbRZdD9RbtSNLNjZsPzrX Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!gatel-ffm!gatel-ffm!proxad.net!216.239.36.134.MISMATCH!postnews.google.com!z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166034 DylanBD wrote: > "Jordan" wrote: > > The Balrogs were "spirits of fire." I notice reading the list of the > > Valar that there are obvious air, water, and earth elemental Powers > > (Manwe, Ulmo, and Aule + Yavanna sharing the two aspects of earth as > > unliving and fruitful), but there is no fire elemental. Maybe Melkor > > was supposed to be the fire spirit but he demanded control of more than > > just that element. > > No, it's stated that Melkor was the "little bit of everything" guy. > > Fire shows up in connection with a lot of Valar--the sun and moon, for > example, have their origins with Yavanna, Varda kindles the stars, Aule has > vulcanism etc etc. > > Tolkien doesn't seem to pay much attention to the classical elements -- the > Three Rings are missing earth, for example. Tolkien specifically states that Manwe rules the air and Ulmo the sea, while Aule is the master of (inorganic) earth. As for the Rings of Power, the ring of (inorganic) earth would be the One itself. It's made of gold, which is the substance Melkor entered most strongly entered into, and it was made by a former Maiar of Aule. Tolkien doesn't pay _strict_ attention to the Greek four-elemental system, but because that system had such a strong influence on the medieval concept of physics, you do see signs of it in the Ardaverse. One complicating fact is that Tolkien was also a scientifically-literate man of the 20th century, and much of _that_ knowledge also crept into his fantasy. Sincerely Yours, Jordan ###### From: "Jordan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: 21 Dec 2004 14:15:29 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 41 Message-ID: <1103664583.517747.73570@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.197.86.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1103667335 32569 127.0.0.1 (21 Dec 2004 22:15:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:15:35 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: G2/0.2 Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com; posting-host=63.197.86.4; posting-account=_Vd1LwwAAADqbRZdD9RbtSNLNjZsPzrX Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!216.239.36.134.MISMATCH!postnews.google.com!z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166040 DylanBD wrote: > "Jordan" wrote: > > The Balrogs were "spirits of fire." I notice reading the list of the > > Valar that there are obvious air, water, and earth elemental Powers > > (Manwe, Ulmo, and Aule + Yavanna sharing the two aspects of earth as > > unliving and fruitful), but there is no fire elemental. Maybe Melkor > > was supposed to be the fire spirit but he demanded control of more than > > just that element. > > No, it's stated that Melkor was the "little bit of everything" guy. > > Fire shows up in connection with a lot of Valar--the sun and moon, for > example, have their origins with Yavanna, Varda kindles the stars, Aule has > vulcanism etc etc. > > Tolkien doesn't seem to pay much attention to the classical elements -- the > Three Rings are missing earth, for example. Tolkien specifically states that Manwe rules the air and Ulmo the sea, while Aule is the master of (inorganic) earth. As for the Rings of Power, the ring of (inorganic) earth would be the One itself. It's made of gold, which is the substance Melkor entered most strongly entered into, and it was made by a former Maiar of Aule. Tolkien doesn't pay _strict_ attention to the Greek four-elemental system, but because that system had such a strong influence on the medieval concept of physics, you do see signs of it in the Ardaverse. One complicating fact is that Tolkien was also a scientifically-literate man of the 20th century, and much of _that_ knowledge also crept into his fantasy. Sincerely Yours, Jordan ###### From: "Jordan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: 21 Dec 2004 14:15:38 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 41 Message-ID: <1103664590.615203.57880@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.197.86.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1103667344 32579 127.0.0.1 (21 Dec 2004 22:15:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:15:44 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: G2/0.2 Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=63.197.86.4; posting-account=_Vd1LwwAAADqbRZdD9RbtSNLNjZsPzrX Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news.mailgate.org!surfnet.nl!news.tudelft.nl!tudelft.nl!feeder1.cambrium.nl!feed.tweaknews.nl!news.zanker.org!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166041 DylanBD wrote: > "Jordan" wrote: > > The Balrogs were "spirits of fire." I notice reading the list of the > > Valar that there are obvious air, water, and earth elemental Powers > > (Manwe, Ulmo, and Aule + Yavanna sharing the two aspects of earth as > > unliving and fruitful), but there is no fire elemental. Maybe Melkor > > was supposed to be the fire spirit but he demanded control of more than > > just that element. > > No, it's stated that Melkor was the "little bit of everything" guy. > > Fire shows up in connection with a lot of Valar--the sun and moon, for > example, have their origins with Yavanna, Varda kindles the stars, Aule has > vulcanism etc etc. > > Tolkien doesn't seem to pay much attention to the classical elements -- the > Three Rings are missing earth, for example. Tolkien specifically states that Manwe rules the air and Ulmo the sea, while Aule is the master of (inorganic) earth. As for the Rings of Power, the ring of (inorganic) earth would be the One itself. It's made of gold, which is the substance Melkor entered most strongly entered into, and it was made by a former Maiar of Aule. Tolkien doesn't pay _strict_ attention to the Greek four-elemental system, but because that system had such a strong influence on the medieval concept of physics, you do see signs of it in the Ardaverse. One complicating fact is that Tolkien was also a scientifically-literate man of the 20th century, and much of _that_ knowledge also crept into his fantasy. Sincerely Yours, Jordan ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:40:15 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <4OMxd.4455$9j5.2522@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166051 "DylanBD" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Number five is energy, on the theory that all matter is a form of energy. By that theory diamonds and carbon are separate elements. I think not. If all matter is energy, then either there is one element (energy) or there are four (the ones you named). But of course the sort of mind that believed in the four elements would not accept that they could be changed into energy. Sorry to be harsh, but I've had it up to here with attempts to merge the hard accuracy of science with the fuzzy feel-goodism of New Age spiritualism. I don't say that such was necessarily your intention, but it sounded close and that's how you pushed my button. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:41:46 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103664590.615203.57880@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.space.net!news.m-online.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166052 "Jordan" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Tolkien specifically states that Manwe rules the air and Ulmo the sea, We heard you the first two times. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: "DylanBD" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <4OMxd.4455$9j5.2522@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:29:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.101.210.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1103675384 67.101.210.161 (Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:29:44 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:29:44 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!cbe2cf57!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166059 "Stan Brown" wrote: > Sorry to be harsh, but I've had it up to here with attempts to merge > the hard accuracy of science with the fuzzy feel-goodism of New Age > spiritualism. I don't say that such was necessarily your intention, > but it sounded close and that's how you pushed my button. In fact, you're taking up one of my recurring themes. Science is a way of asking questions, not a set of answers, and basing a belief system on it is a basic misapprehension of its purpose -- whether that be "creation science" or untestable noodling on about "quantum energy." But shut my mouth, we are not in talk.origins, thank God. I really don't think the four elements map well onto Tolkien, as I've said--he tends to divide things into threes not fours, and Manwe/Ulmo/Aule works better as Zeus/Poseidon/Pluto than Air/Water/Earth. Calling the One Ring the missing "earth" to the Three sets up an odd situation in which earth becomes "master" of the other elements -- not at all a Tolkien-esque thought. Also, if this frame of reference had meaning for the lore-wise Noldor, wouldn't they have noticed that a fourth ring was missing from the set? Celebrimbor: "Hey, there's only three element rings here...what about earth?" Sauron: "Er...that's a secret!" Celebrimbor: "Something's amiss here..." Sauron: "No no, not at all. Look, a monkey!" [runs] ###### Message-ID: <41C8DC72.6DEDCA34@yahoo-dot.ca> From: Odysseus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,fr-CA,fr,fr-FR,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <4OMxd.4455$9j5.2522@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 17 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:30:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.166.231.142 X-Trace: edtnps89 1103682602 198.166.231.142 (Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:30:02 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:30:02 MST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!wattres.watt.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed2.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!edtnps89.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166066 Troels Forchhammer wrote: > > In message "Bruce > Tucker" enriched us with: > > > > > Varda would clearly be associated with the element of air; > > I think that would have been Manwë -- the eagles and winds and all. > It seems the most natural inference to me that being a couple their powers have a strong affinity or, in the terms of this discussion, belong to the same element. Likewise for Aulë and Yavanna, as mentioned. -- Odysseus ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:41:02 -0600 From: R. Dan Henry Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:41:04 -0800 Message-ID: References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <4OMxd.4455$9j5.2522@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.25.61.75 X-Trace: sv3-A1JtGZ2XwKYSvUsN+WWkBHUlvKHARUhqZuATikSIoIpTAlkGb6IIQ/6vDWRqVx2Lt9RUTh9lkwg0HUH!WApn5UxXCT2RfSS+6yzvrZMDB2ckBS3KrxYyEk0qiU9i5UENfeX65haDgRUwQJD2Fh/RoF3gwHw1!d5UjirS6ZSVuzHg4mvF1KA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.inreach.com!news.inreach.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166072 On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 11:17:37 -0500, "Bruce Tucker" wrote: > Varda would clearly be associated with >the element of air; the essential nature of stars in a magical universe >seems to be pretty well universally regarded as being a component of the >heavens, not a simple fiery phenomenon Yes, but "the heavens" are *above* the air. The stars were considered to be composed of a fifth element (quintessence) which was superior to the earthly four, providing the eternal quality to the heavens which the world below clearly lacked. R. Dan Henry danhenry@inreach.com ###### From: "Jordan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: 22 Dec 2004 12:07:45 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 15 Message-ID: <1103746065.765382.245240@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103664590.615203.57880@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.197.86.6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1103746069 25270 127.0.0.1 (22 Dec 2004 20:07:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:07:49 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: User-Agent: G2/0.2 Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=63.197.86.6; posting-account=_Vd1LwwAAADqbRZdD9RbtSNLNjZsPzrX Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166089 Stan Brown wrote: > "Jordan" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Tolkien specifically states that Manwe rules the air and Ulmo the sea, > > We heard you the first two times. Sorry, I was posting through Google Beta and it probably hiccupped -- told me it hadn't posted while it actually had, so that I wound up re-posting. Sincerely Yours, Jordan ###### From: "Jordan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: 22 Dec 2004 12:15:30 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 32 Message-ID: <1103746530.662493.95380@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <4OMxd.4455$9j5.2522@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.197.86.6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1103746534 25922 127.0.0.1 (22 Dec 2004 20:15:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:15:34 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: User-Agent: G2/0.2 Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com; posting-host=63.197.86.6; posting-account=_Vd1LwwAAADqbRZdD9RbtSNLNjZsPzrX Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!209.11.36.156.MISMATCH!nntp-server.pubsub.com!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166090 I'd argue that Tolkien's Ardaverse slowly changed from pure fantasy to science fantasy as his concepts matured. Tolkien very much wanted to create the illusion that his Ages could have really happened in some dim forgotten past, and so he tried to avoid directly stating that anything _impossible_ could have happened in them. Now, a lot of _The Silmarillion_ IS inconsistent with what we know about Earth's past. But that's partially because some of its core mythical elements include astronomical impossibilities (Tolkien had, for instance, formulated much of the myth of Earendil as early as, I think, the late 1920's) and a lot of what Tolkien thought possible (Atlantis and the mutating continental shapes) was based upon pre-tectonic drift theories of land formation and disappearance. Of the sf/fantasy writers of Tolkien's generation, Lovecraft was the only one who guessed right that continents _do_ drift. The reason why "merging the hard accuracy of science with the fuzzy feel-goodism of New Age spiritualism" makes sense in the Ardaverse is that what we know of the very early First Age is (supposedly) based on an ancient Halfling interpretation (_The Red Book_) of some ancient Elven interpretations (the source materials at Rivendell etc.) of the doings of the Valar in an age long before there were any Elves to witness it firsthand. The Valar presumably understand physics on a level beyond our current science (after all, they _embody_ various physical principles); however, what the Elves understood of what they told them; and what Merry understood of what the Elves told him of this, and what Tolkien understood after translating _The Red Book_ into English, is another matter entirely. See? Sincerely Yours, Jordan ###### From: "Jordan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: 22 Dec 2004 12:19:09 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <1103746749.312117.289520@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <4OMxd.4455$9j5.2522@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.197.86.6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1103746756 26275 127.0.0.1 (22 Dec 2004 20:19:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:19:16 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: User-Agent: G2/0.2 Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=63.197.86.6; posting-account=_Vd1LwwAAADqbRZdD9RbtSNLNjZsPzrX Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!gatel-ffm!gatel-ffm!proxad.net!216.239.36.134.MISMATCH!postnews.google.com!c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166091 LOL!!! That's a very good point! On the other hand, the _Elves_ didn't necessarily follow the Four Element system, and there was a very obvious reason in the Ardaverse why making a Ring of Earth might be dangerous -- Morgoth had long ago corrupted that domain. Remember, Celebrimbor lacked one important datum about "Annatar" -- that he was really Gorthaur the Cruel, of infamous Elder Days memory. But if he'd known that he was talking to Morgoth's old chief henchman, he never would have worked with him in the first place, no matter what knowledge was offered. Celebrimbor's weakness was his curiosity into smithcraft, but Celebrimbor was not evil. Sincerely Yours, Jordan ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: 23 Dec 2004 04:54:50 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <4OMxd.4455$9j5.2522@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> <1103746530.662493.95380@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: individual.net pkDzhOSTE5Rf3ppnjo5YMAIYzM59tI0pcV0Fn0I7dqbCGS9UFk User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166146 On 22 Dec 2004 12:15:30 -0800, Jordan wrote: > I'd argue that Tolkien's Ardaverse slowly changed from pure fantasy to > science fantasy as his concepts matured. Tolkien very much wanted to > create the illusion that his Ages could have really happened in some > dim forgotten past, and so he tried to avoid directly stating that > anything _impossible_ could have happened in them. If you don't yet have a copy of Morgoth's Ring, then I recommend you pick one up. Tolkien attempted a solution to the problem you outline, disasterously so, as it occupied the last period of time in which he could likely have completed the Silmarillion. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 11:08:42 -0600 From: R. Dan Henry Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:08:45 -0800 Message-ID: References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <4OMxd.4455$9j5.2522@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.25.61.36 X-Trace: sv3-OxrmsLhgOmE3H3yFKSSVB5detbVxS53fNt+Ws4kCM4BC7po9U7sXyU4TrwDTzg/nlUxAaE0VmEmOJ0d!3sdvhvBnGSXkgW5ExtWcDbk1njEquVB9a2fp/I2c7wrBPPGncDj40R/leswe2eTrU6Dbknm8GTsX!90nlf69WkJlVo/yU7swGYA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.inreach.com!news.inreach.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:166315 On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:29:44 GMT, "DylanBD" wrote: >I really don't think the four elements map well onto Tolkien, as I've >said--he tends to divide things into threes not fours, and Manwe/Ulmo/Aule >works better as Zeus/Poseidon/Pluto than Air/Water/Earth. But Zeus-Poseidon-Pluto *is* Air-Earth-Water, a pre-philosophical division of the elements which ignores fire. There were a number of "elemental" schemes in different cultures. The Chinese had five. Sets of four actually work better with North American cosmologies as four seems to have the same place in the New World as three in the Old World as the main "magic number". But it does seem from the Zeus-Poseidon-Pluto division of Sky, Sea, and Underworld that there was a three-element concept in the earliest Greek thought (with recognition that the world where Men lived was a blending and thus a sort of no-gods-land where the elements could conflict). So I agree with your basic comparison -- I intended to make it myself -- but I disagree that this is not an elemental scheme. The three main Greek gods were closely identified with specific "elements". R. Dan Henry danhenry@inreach.com ###### Message-ID: <41d5def8_2@127.0.0.1> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:28:32 +0000 References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Lines: 35 User-Agent: KNode/0.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Authenticated-User: $$nnmvwqeaa0shkm X-Comments: This message was posted through > Valaquenta has: > > "For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of > his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his > darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with > lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the > Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called > the Balrogs, demons of terror." > > So it sounds like at least some of the 'horrid crew' went way back > to when Melkor was the Archangel To Be Seen With. Even as far back > as the Music "some began to attune their music to his [Melkor's] > rather than to the thought which they had at first". But before this > he does seem to have been a loner ("being alone he had begun to > conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren"). > > Richard. Don't forget also that Arien, the maiden who guided the Sun, was also a sprit of fire, one of those that Melkor had not managed to corrupt, and was therefore essentially kindred to the Balrogs. On a slight tangent: There seemed to be a number of Balrogs running around Angband. How many (good ones) were running around Aman, apart from Arien? Best, -- Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net ###### Message-ID: <41d5e305_1@127.0.0.1> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: Re: Balrogs as the "folk" of Melkor Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:45:49 +0000 References: <1103190613.913185.193530@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1103587329.525747.40330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <4OMxd.4455$9j5.2522@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Lines: 21 User-Agent: KNode/0.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Authenticated-User: $$nnmvwqeaa0shkm X-Comments: This message was posted through Yes, but "the heavens" are *above* the air. The stars were > considered to be composed of a fifth element (quintessence) which > was superior to the earthly four, providing the eternal quality to > the heavens which the world below clearly lacked. Would it be fair to say then that the stars were powered by the very energy of the Universe itself? This would fit in with what Bruce was saying, that matter is a projection of a much greater domain beyond the material world. Metaphysicists have referred to this relationship as the "implicate order" (energy) and "explicate order" (matter). Best, -- Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net