NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:29:24 -0500 From: "Simon J. Rowe" Subject: It's all true! Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:29:24 +0100 User-Agent: KNode/0.7.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Message-ID: Lines: 4 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.189.211.50 X-Trace: sv3-kj8rqHTMzNFOcp7nzpjxpAX9Cjw7Y6WixrFqLljTXu2iiSIHfoEOfa5nrL3n7oZOuKbJJKkx3ACXbZZ!tzmRtBOl1C3xWsdfloeQz/BgBN4oGibyWmTcu5LfWq3eyUlxgpC56SX/8w7R6wpo1ucifsWFPGLB!KXqTixs= X-Complaints-To: abuse@brightview.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@brightview.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!diablo.voicenet.com!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.brightview.com!news.brightview.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163356 Hobbit skeleton found! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3948165.stm ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: It's all true! Lines: 24 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <67Sfd.804$up1.737@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:51:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.160.204 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1098903106 82.43.160.204 (Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:51:46 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:51:46 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163357 Simon J. Rowe wrote: > Hobbit skeleton found! > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3948165.stm Quoting from that link: "'There have always been myths about small people - Ireland has its Leprechauns and Australia has the Yowies. I suppose there's some feeling that this is an oral history going back to the survival of these small people into recent times,' said co-discoverer Peter Brown, an associate professor of archaeology at New England. " There is also speculation that some hobbi... sorry, H. floresiensis specimens might still exist in the unexplored rainforests of Indonesia. Frodo Lives!! Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: Javier Caselli Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: 27 Oct 2004 19:15:58 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de vHjmGHnm4ohqNV1zeo5iLgspE7xz5tsr0LFomAvDIx9su42pKb User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163367 "Simon J. Rowe" wrote in news:gPWdnemMHqyZdOLcRVnyjg@brightview.com: > Hobbit skeleton found! > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3948165.stm > quite fascinating, I had heard the news but I just saw the photos on the link you provide. Well, it may well be that many bedside stories have more truth embedded in them than we imagined. :) ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 70.70.200.108 Reply-To: "Chris Wright" From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: It's all true! Lines: 6 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 21:08:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1098911335 64.59.144.74 (Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:08:55 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:08:55 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163382 We already know about pygmies in Africa. Which, last I heard, were being butchered and made into amulets by the race of Men. ###### From: Javier Caselli Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: 27 Oct 2004 22:53:21 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de ZObKEilCwAPiWVyBoS9hXQ0RGWJZktoVz667IO2cbCyY2hIsq6 User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163402 "Chris Wright" wrote in news:H7Ufd.39238$nl.28177@pd7tw3no: > We already know about pygmies in Africa. > > Which, last I heard, were being butchered and made into amulets by the > race of Men. Well, AFAIK pygmies are considered Homo Sapiens Sapiens of full right, though that thing you mention about the butchery put their rights into question to say the least, my God! Back to the point, I think the pygmies are a little taller than this "hobbits", if I remember correctly the average height of pygmies is below one and a half metres (let's say 1'35, though I don't remember for sure), while the Homo Floresiensis aka "Hobbit" is only 1 metre tall. I know the only think that makes this thread on topic is the name the scientifics have given to this new forefather of ours, but I can help but comment this: Have you guys looked at the size of the head? is hardly larger that that of a modern man baby, and they where capable of crafting tools! I don't know about you but I find this discovery fascinating. ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: It's all true! Lines: 40 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:23:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.162.12.247 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1098919413 10.162.12.247 (Thu, 28 Oct 2004 02:23:33 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 02:23:33 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163408 in , Javier Caselli enriched us with: > > "Simon J. Rowe" wrote in > news:gPWdnemMHqyZdOLcRVnyjg@brightview.com: > >> Hobbit skeleton found! >> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3948165.stm >> > > quite fascinating, I had heard the news but I just saw the photos on > the link you provide. Well, it may well be that many bedside stories > have more truth embedded in them than we imagined. :) "And now the songs have come down among us out of strange places, and walk visible under the Sun." Or perhaps a fuller quotation would also be appropriate: "Long we have tended our beasts and our fields, built our houses, wrought our tools, or ridden away to help in the wars of Minas Tirith. And that we called the life of Men, the way of the World. We cared little for what lay beyond the borders of our land. Songs we have that tell of these things, but we are forgetting them, teaching them only to children, as a careless custom. And now the songs have come down among us out of strange places, and walk visible under the Sun." Scientists are usually notoriously bad at picking names for their pets, but this time their choice seems to be exceedingly well-chosen: "The Hobbit" indeed! -- Troels Forchhammer Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men. - Lord Acton, in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 70.70.200.108 Reply-To: "Chris Wright" From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: It's all true! Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 02:44:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1098931468 64.59.144.74 (Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:44:28 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:44:28 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!sjc1.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!pd7cy2so!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163418 "Javier Caselli" wrote in message news:Xns9590910D24F2javicaselliyahooes@130.133.1.4... > "Chris Wright" wrote in > news:H7Ufd.39238$nl.28177@pd7tw3no: > >> We already know about pygmies in Africa. >> >> Which, last I heard, were being butchered and made into amulets by the >> race of Men. > > > Well, AFAIK pygmies are considered Homo Sapiens Sapiens of full right, > though that thing you mention about the butchery put their rights into > question to say the least, my God! > > Back to the point, I think the pygmies are a little taller than this > "hobbits", if I remember correctly the average height of pygmies is > below one and a half metres (let's say 1'35, though I don't remember for > sure), while the Homo Floresiensis aka "Hobbit" is only 1 metre tall. > > I know the only think that makes this thread on topic is the name the > scientifics have given to this new forefather of ours, but I can help > but comment this: Have you guys looked at the size of the head? is > hardly larger that that of a modern man baby, and they where capable of > crafting tools! I don't know about you but I find this discovery > fascinating. Be mindful that bones and skulls do shrink when exposed to certain substances, like sand. That could easily explain why their remains appear to be so small. ###### From: Lord Jubjub Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:48:09 -0500 Organization: Land of Storm and Chaso Message-ID: References: User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.4 (PPC Mac OS X) X-FACE: "\LJ/5EA;~k%mAErPj*&_K+tI#fz(4+WNg)5Z)pZA4{#aVTjw0>{-C}h~~X;G2ylL:Pm@^+"1$1o\mr(R,+~dT#>^1;}[N)J5\T=\VDpM]nF4Pw7&L6|NdUs,9]/{O"D6splJ X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 41 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!jubjub Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163419 In article , "Chris Wright" wrote: > "Javier Caselli" wrote in message > news:Xns9590910D24F2javicaselliyahooes@130.133.1.4... > > "Chris Wright" wrote in > > news:H7Ufd.39238$nl.28177@pd7tw3no: > > > >> We already know about pygmies in Africa. > >> > >> Which, last I heard, were being butchered and made into amulets by the > >> race of Men. > > > > > > Well, AFAIK pygmies are considered Homo Sapiens Sapiens of full right, > > though that thing you mention about the butchery put their rights into > > question to say the least, my God! > > > > Back to the point, I think the pygmies are a little taller than this > > "hobbits", if I remember correctly the average height of pygmies is > > below one and a half metres (let's say 1'35, though I don't remember for > > sure), while the Homo Floresiensis aka "Hobbit" is only 1 metre tall. > > > > I know the only think that makes this thread on topic is the name the > > scientifics have given to this new forefather of ours, but I can help > > but comment this: Have you guys looked at the size of the head? is > > hardly larger that that of a modern man baby, and they where capable of > > crafting tools! I don't know about you but I find this discovery > > fascinating. > > Be mindful that bones and skulls do shrink when exposed to certain > substances, like sand. That could easily explain why their remains appear to > be so small. No, no, no! Not bones. Bones don't shrink. When the finders say that the skeletons were from full-grown people 3 feet tall, I tend to believe them (especially once I check the calendar to make sure it's not April 1st). -- Leader of the Slithy Toves ###### From: cmsahe@hotmail.com (Carlos Santillan) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: 27 Oct 2004 22:26:26 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <1cb16b8c.0410272126.531ef264@posting.google.com> References: <67Sfd.804$up1.737@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.246.237.121 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1098941187 10875 127.0.0.1 (28 Oct 2004 05:26:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 05:26:27 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163424 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:<67Sfd.804$up1.737@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>... > Simon J. Rowe wrote: > > Hobbit skeleton found! > > > There is also speculation that some hobbi... sorry, H. floresiensis > specimens might still exist in the unexplored rainforests of Indonesia. Uhmm, I've just read that they ate a baby once, so we must be careful... (so much for that book I've just read: "The End of Science") > > Frodo Lives!! > > Christopher ###### From: cmsahe@hotmail.com (Carlos Santillan) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: 27 Oct 2004 22:30:05 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: <1cb16b8c.0410272130.7c015ccd@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.246.237.121 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1098941406 11299 127.0.0.1 (28 Oct 2004 05:30:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 05:30:06 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163425 Javier Caselli wrote in message news:... > I know the only think that makes this thread on topic is the name the > scientifics have given to this new forefather of ours, but I can help > but comment this: Have you guys looked at the size of the head? is > hardly larger that that of a modern man baby, and they where capable of > crafting tools! I don't know about you but I find this discovery > fascinating. Yes because, the whole human evolution theory has been always based on the asumption that we (hominids) needed a minimun cranial capacity (1350-1500cc) This Homo Floreiensis had barely 850cc. I'm excited! ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 70.70.200.108 Reply-To: "Chris Wright" From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: It's all true! Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:18:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1098973107 64.59.144.74 (Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:18:27 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:18:27 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-fra1.dfn.de!news2.telebyte.nl!feed5.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163433 > No, no, no! Not bones. Bones don't shrink. When the finders say that > the skeletons were from full-grown people 3 feet tall, I tend to believe > them (especially once I check the calendar to make sure it's not April > 1st). The best way to shrink a skull is to fill it with sand, and leave it. So I hear, anyway. It reduces the volume enormously. But I guess skulls aren't considered to be bones, now are they? ;) ###### Reply-To: "Lurking Laurie" From: "Lurking Laurie" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <67Sfd.804$up1.737@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <1cb16b8c.0410272126.531ef264@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: It's all true! Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.218.206.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr17.news.prodigy.com 1098980321 ST000 24.218.206.207 (Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:18:41 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:18:41 EDT Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: FKPO@MC@OXVQRPH[AZODM^\BZJ]T@FLNLBWLOOAFQATJUZ]CDVW[AKK[J\]^HVKHG^EWZHBLO^[\NH_AZFWGN^\DHNVMX_DHHX[FSQKBOTS@@BP^]C@RHS_AGDDC[AJM_T[GZNRNZAY]GNCPBDYKOLK^_CZFWPGHZIXW@C[AFKBBQS@E@DAZ]VDFUNTQQ]FN Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:18:41 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!Quza.UK.peer!nntp.gblx.net!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr17.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!ecd5e451!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163446 >> Simon J. Rowe wrote: >> > Hobbit skeleton found! >> > > Christopher Kreuzer > replied: >> There is also speculation that some hobbi... >> sorry, H. floresiensis >> specimens might still exist in the unexplored >> rainforests of Indonesia. > Carlos Santillan replied: > Uhmm, I've just read that they ate a baby once, > so we must be > careful... (so much for that book I've just > read: "The End of > Science") "The woodmen said there was some new terror abroad, a ghost that drank blood. It climbed trees to find nests; it crept into holes to find the young; it slipped through windows to find cradles." FotR, The Shadow of the Past >> Frodo Lives!! Gollum Lives! ; ) -Lurking Laurie (campos@NOSPAMprodigy.net) ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: 28 Oct 2004 19:38:45 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de d8m4jPsuyzTTzTMr27GNUgEHG+DZqwxl2t7Ktg0/lAq06A9QCw User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163476 On 27 Oct 2004 22:53:21 GMT, Javier Caselli wrote: > "Chris Wright" wrote in > news:H7Ufd.39238$nl.28177@pd7tw3no: > >> We already know about pygmies in Africa. >> >> Which, last I heard, were being butchered and made into amulets by the >> race of Men. > > > Well, AFAIK pygmies are considered Homo Sapiens Sapiens of full right, > though that thing you mention about the butchery put their rights into > question to say the least, my God! The San and various other groups in Africa called "pygmies" and "hotentots" have brains fully within the normal range of modern H. sapiens. These one meter tall individual has the brain the size of a chimpanzee. It is clearly a different species. > > Back to the point, I think the pygmies are a little taller than this > "hobbits", if I remember correctly the average height of pygmies is > below one and a half metres (let's say 1'35, though I don't remember for > sure), while the Homo Floresiensis aka "Hobbit" is only 1 metre tall. > > I know the only think that makes this thread on topic is the name the > scientifics have given to this new forefather of ours, but I can help > but comment this: Have you guys looked at the size of the head? is > hardly larger that that of a modern man baby, and they where capable of > crafting tools! I don't know about you but I find this discovery > fascinating. If the stone tools can be matched to Flores Man, then it's going to be revolutionary, and turn over decades of assumptions about brain size and capabilility in our ancient ancestors. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com "My illness is due to my doctor's insistence that I drink milk, a whitish fluid they force down helpless babies." - WC Fields ###### From: jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: 28 Oct 2004 16:15:01 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <67Sfd.804$up1.737@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1098994502 20694 166.84.1.1 (28 Oct 2004 20:15:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:15:02 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-fra1.dfn.de!news2.telebyte.nl!news.glorb.com!newsread.com!newsprint.newsread.com!panix!panix1.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163484 In article <67Sfd.804$up1.737@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >Simon J. Rowe wrote: >> Hobbit skeleton found! >> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3948165.stm >Quoting from that link: > >"'There have always been myths about small people - Ireland has its >Leprechauns and Australia has the Yowies. I suppose there's some feeling >that this is an oral history going back to the survival of these small >people into recent times,' said co-discoverer Peter Brown, an associate >professor of archaeology at New England. " > >There is also speculation that some hobbi... sorry, H. floresiensis >specimens might still exist in the unexplored rainforests of Indonesia. If this species still exists it could have consequences far beyond the realms of archaeology and paleontology. Think about it. A second human species! A lot would depend on their intelligence and robustness, but provided we didn't somehow stupidly wipe them out on first contact we might very well introduce them to modern medicine, increase their numbers, and eventually start exporting them around the world as laborers or servants. This would be huge! One thing that has been a constant throughout the whole of human history is that, whatever our differences, we really were one species, always able to talk and mix with each other as equals (even if we didn't always choose to do so). But suddenly this would no longer be true. Suddenly we would be sharing the planet with creatures who were clearly people, yet permanently separate from us, and not our equals. Or maybe they wouldn't be permanently separate -- maybe interbreeding would be possible. Either way, the mind boggles. As interesting and enlightening as it would be -- from a scientific point of view -- to find some of these "hobbits" still alive, I think we will be better off if we don't. -- John Brock jbrock@panix.com ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: It's all true! Lines: 12 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <_1ggd.1695$up1.1416@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 00:21:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.102.116 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1099009274 82.44.102.116 (Fri, 29 Oct 2004 01:21:14 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 01:21:14 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163510 Chris Wright wrote: >> No, no, no! Not bones. Bones don't shrink. When the finders say >> that the skeletons were from full-grown people 3 feet tall, I tend >> to believe them (especially once I check the calendar to make sure >> it's not April 1st). > > The best way to shrink a skull is to fill it with sand, and leave it. > So I hear, anyway. It reduces the volume enormously. That would be a _head_ with the skull removed! As the OP said, bones don't shrink. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <67Sfd.804$up1.737@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <1cb16b8c.0410272126.531ef264@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: It's all true! Lines: 12 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 00:23:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.102.116 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1099009419 82.44.102.116 (Fri, 29 Oct 2004 01:23:39 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 01:23:39 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163511 Lurking Laurie wrote: >> Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >>> Simon J. Rowe wrote: >>>> Hobbit skeleton found! >>> Frodo Lives!! [baby eating stories] > Gollum Lives! ; ) LOL! ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <67Sfd.804$up1.737@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: It's all true! Lines: 13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 00:28:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.102.116 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1099009706 82.44.102.116 (Fri, 29 Oct 2004 01:28:26 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 01:28:26 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newshub3.home.nl!home.nl!news2.telebyte.nl!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163512 John Brock wrote: [about H. floresiensis] > If this species still exists it could have consequences far beyond > the realms of archaeology and paleontology. Indeed. It would be First Contact with what might be a similar but essentially alien intelligence. Though it depends both on if it happens (and I kind of agree with you that it might be best if we are the only hominid species left on Earth) and how intelligent they are (if we can objectively make that sort of assessement). ###### From: Joe K Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:08:25 -0700 Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 12 Message-ID: <4181C238.797E196E@compuserve.com> References: <67Sfd.804$up1.737@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: adsl-69-105-118-16.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1099022413 10358 69.105.118.16 (29 Oct 2004 04:00:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:00:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!nntp.eutelia.it!news.newsland.it!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163525 >>One thing that has been a constant throughout >>the whole of human history is that, whatever our differences, we >>really were one species, always able to talk and mix with each >>other as equals (even if we didn't always choose to do so). Hi John, What about the presumed coexistence of homo sapiens and homo Neanderthalis? Joe ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:27:25 -0500 From: R. Dan Henry Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:27:30 -0700 Message-ID: References: <67Sfd.804$up1.737@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.25.52.27 X-Trace: sv3-0SN6/oQ2yeBr4c9pcqrD5/FUM6HgqD3AXL38h3TZlnaQt214z4y0/Woen9j8Ra43ylcWIqdVreB+3q4!e/QUjsigO0y+O+ypwl5DPHePsZw1VtjM90mtPLhzWlUquKVOWBBo6uhfuGsmZE0kjIB5TWZzdCVA!dLastagzXNu3ZcI/Wd+9tw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.inreach.com!news.inreach.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163526 On 28 Oct 2004 16:15:01 -0400, jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) wrote: >In article <67Sfd.804$up1.737@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, >Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >>There is also speculation that some hobbi... sorry, H. floresiensis >>specimens might still exist in the unexplored rainforests of Indonesia. > >If this species still exists it could have consequences far beyond >the realms of archaeology and paleontology. Yeah, it would be possible to do a *proper* LOTR film series without having to use fancy effects for the halflings! R. Dan Henry danhenry@inreach.com ###### From: jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: 29 Oct 2004 00:51:45 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <67Sfd.804$up1.737@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <4181C238.797E196E@compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1099025506 961 166.84.1.2 (29 Oct 2004 04:51:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:51:46 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!panix2.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163527 In article <4181C238.797E196E@compuserve.com>, Joe K wrote: >>>One thing that has been a constant throughout >>>the whole of human history is that, whatever our differences, we >>>really were one species, always able to talk and mix with each >>>other as equals (even if we didn't always choose to do so). > Hi John, >What about the presumed coexistence of homo sapiens and homo >Neanderthalis? That's pre-history. For all of human history, i.e., for all of the thousands of years when there has been civilization and writing (and this includes all of our written down thoughts about who we are), there has only been one human species. Finding a second human species would change things drastically. And it would not be a reversion to our prehistoric coexistence with the Neanderthals, it would be something entirely new. As interesting as that would be, I find the idea quite disturbing. Our intellectual curiosity would eventually be satisfied (although almost certainly more questions would be raised than answered), but after that we would have to live together for a long, long time. How would that work? What sort of relationship would we have? What would the "hobbits" do to support themselves in our world (where most of them would eventually find themselves living, if we didn't keep them permanently couped up on their little island -- an option that comes with its own moral dilemmas)? Might some of them go feral in our fields and forests? How would we deal with *that*? Would we have to neuter them to keep their numbers down, like cats and dogs? The possibilities are endless, and it's not clear to me that any of them are good. -- John Brock jbrock@panix.com ###### From: Javier Caselli Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: 29 Oct 2004 10:17:37 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de VlYzFv/aQIBoIjjhTIWq8Amhv21fP/0300JCnxlsw0V+edwWTj User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163536 AC wrote in news:slrnco2im4.163.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net: > The San and various other groups in Africa called "pygmies" and > "hotentots" have brains fully within the normal range of modern H. > sapiens. These one meter tall individual has the brain the size of a > chimpanzee. It is clearly a different species. > I don't know, is this scientifically documented? I thought the Homo Sapiens was the only men species alive today. Take into account that many factors infuence in the height of people, for example here in Spain average height has increased around 20 centimetres in about a century only because a great improvement in the quantity and quality of food people can afford. Also the environment has it's influence, it is guessed that this homo floresiensis were so little because they evolved in an island devoid of serious threats. Perhaps something similar happened to the pygmies? Nature can have it's influence too, in Europe, mediterranean people enjoyed better weather conditions a less natural threats than nordics, so nordics evolved to be taller and stronger (and quite mean looking with those horned helmets vikings were son fond of) :D ###### From: Javier Caselli Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: 29 Oct 2004 11:08:00 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <_1ggd.1695$up1.1416@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 3T5dqkp5s6qF0eCUVewIBAjcCXmgyH8WUwyiuBw7lYMl6hOPwI User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163540 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in news:_1ggd.1695 $up1.1416@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk: > That would be a _head_ with the skull removed! > As the OP said, bones don't shrink. > Imagine, if bones could shrink, the REAL size of the Diplodocus? XD No, seriously, if such thing were possible we would have, IMHO, no certain evidence, for example, of creaneal capacities of our ancestors, because it would be very difficult to dilucidate the exact exposure of the bone to shrinking environments before it fossilized, and thus, the exact size of the skull before it shrank would be unknown. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 70.70.200.108 Reply-To: "Chris Wright" From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <_1ggd.1695$up1.1416@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: It's all true! Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:56:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1099065392 64.59.144.74 (Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:56:32 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:56:32 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163547 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:_1ggd.1695$up1.1416@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk... > Chris Wright wrote: >>> No, no, no! Not bones. Bones don't shrink. When the finders say >>> that the skeletons were from full-grown people 3 feet tall, I tend >>> to believe them (especially once I check the calendar to make sure >>> it's not April 1st). >> >> The best way to shrink a skull is to fill it with sand, and leave it. >> So I hear, anyway. It reduces the volume enormously. > > That would be a _head_ with the skull removed! > As the OP said, bones don't shrink. I find it hard to believe that over a long-enough time frame, under all geological conditions bones don't shrink -at all-. ###### From: Joe K Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:10:24 -0700 Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 15 Message-ID: <4182878F.CF647F05@compuserve.com> References: <67Sfd.804$up1.737@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <4181C238.797E196E@compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: adsl-69-105-118-16.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1099072925 12800 69.105.118.16 (29 Oct 2004 18:02:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:02:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163558 >>>One thing that has been a constant throughout >>>the whole of human history is that, whatever our differences, we >>>really were one species, always able to talk and mix with each >>>other as equals (even if we didn't always choose to do so). >> Hi John, >>What about the presumed coexistence of homo sapiens and homo >>Neanderthalis? >That's pre-history. For all of human history, .... Thanks for the clarification. Joe ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: 29 Oct 2004 18:23:52 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <67Sfd.804$up1.737@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <4181C238.797E196E@compuserve.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de KU6GGx784ThyH7gPf3kTFwbZ1XmFk2XbZKHXZLJGAfZyFPuEp6 User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163559 On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:08:25 -0700, Joe K wrote: >>>One thing that has been a constant throughout >>>the whole of human history is that, whatever our differences, we >>>really were one species, always able to talk and mix with each >>>other as equals (even if we didn't always choose to do so). > > Hi John, > What about the presumed coexistence of homo sapiens and homo > Neanderthalis? That's not presumed, but rather a certainty. Moderns and Neandertals were in Europe at the same time for millennia. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com "My illness is due to my doctor's insistence that I drink milk, a whitish fluid they force down helpless babies." - WC Fields ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: 29 Oct 2004 18:34:09 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de L8/1YdzgM6bkFPMCYFeCVQKAKm3Wl/0STOr0XEPjsgq9rxHGaO User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163560 On 29 Oct 2004 10:17:37 GMT, Javier Caselli wrote: > AC wrote in > news:slrnco2im4.163.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net: > >> The San and various other groups in Africa called "pygmies" and >> "hotentots" have brains fully within the normal range of modern H. >> sapiens. These one meter tall individual has the brain the size of a >> chimpanzee. It is clearly a different species. >> > > I don't know, is this scientifically documented? I thought the Homo > Sapiens was the only men species alive today. At the moment we are it. I think the hope is that some of these stories told in the region where Flores Man was found may pan out, and that another extant hominid still survives. > Take into account that > many factors infuence in the height of people, for example here in Spain > average height has increased around 20 centimetres in about a century > only because a great improvement in the quantity and quality of food > people can afford. > > Also the environment has it's influence, it is guessed that this homo > floresiensis were so little because they evolved in an island devoid of > serious threats. Perhaps something similar happened to the pygmies? I believe the small stature of some African peoples is more attributed to temperature, and not to isolation. As I said, pygmies have normal human brains (averaging about 1350-1400cc for all modern human populations), while the little person from Flores had a brain about 380cc, which is around the same range as chimpanzees (400cc). Now, while chimps are fantastically smart critters, who do have some tool-using skills, these fellow seems to have been a good deal more skilled than that. > > Nature can have it's influence too, in Europe, mediterranean people > enjoyed better weather conditions a less natural threats than nordics, > so nordics evolved to be taller and stronger (and quite mean looking > with those horned helmets vikings were son fond of) :D I think the point of the discovery is that we have seen nothing before in hominids which has shown a decrease in *brain size*. Flores Man had a brain the size of a chimpanzee, smaller than the Asian H. erectus populations which are the best candidate as its ancestors. The height is of interest because we haven't seen a hominid showing the dwarfism which is apparently fairly common among animals in isolated island environments (giganticism is also noted in such environments, and apparently Flores was home to tiny elephants and rats the size of small dogs, not to mention the large lizards). -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com "My illness is due to my doctor's insistence that I drink milk, a whitish fluid they force down helpless babies." - WC Fields ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <_1ggd.1695$up1.1416@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: It's all true! Lines: 29 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:04:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.102.116 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1099083895 82.44.102.116 (Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:04:55 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:04:55 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163570 Chris Wright wrote: > I find it hard to believe that over a long-enough time frame, under > all geological conditions bones don't shrink -at all-. First you should realise that fossil bones are not (usually) bone. Getting back to shrinking bones, I'd be interested to hear if you can provide any references for such a thing happening. You might want to think about why certain materials can shrink in the first place, and then why other materials won't do this. I would hazard a guess that molecular and macromolecular properties would explain it, along with why why some materials are soft and others are hard. Also, the act of shrinking may have a lot to do with dessication, or loss of water from the structure. Would you expect a diamond to shrink? Of course not. Chemical or physiological reactions may affect a structure (think of rusting and acid rain or collapsing bones in osteoporosis), but shrinking is a very specific set of processes limited to certain types of materials. The fossilizing of bone is a different process again. The original bone is lost and replaced by rock. That is a slight simplification though, see here for details: http://www.asn.csus.edu/geol/Deptwebpage/kusnick/Geology105/pres.html Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: 29 Oct 2004 18:16:52 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <_1ggd.1695$up1.1416@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1099088213 19690 166.84.1.1 (29 Oct 2004 22:16:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:16:53 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!peer2.news.newnet.co.uk!peer2.news.newnet.co.uk!news2.telebyte.nl!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!panix1.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163579 In article , Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >Chris Wright wrote: >> I find it hard to believe that over a long-enough time frame, under >> all geological conditions bones don't shrink -at all-. >First you should realise that fossil bones are not (usually) bone. > >Getting back to shrinking bones, I'd be interested to hear if you can >provide any references for such a thing happening. You might want to >think about why certain materials can shrink in the first place, and >then why other materials won't do this. I would hazard a guess that >molecular and macromolecular properties would explain it, along with why >why some materials are soft and others are hard. Also, the act of >shrinking may have a lot to do with dessication, or loss of water from >the structure. Would you expect a diamond to shrink? Of course not. >Chemical or physiological reactions may affect a structure (think of >rusting and acid rain or collapsing bones in osteoporosis), but >shrinking is a very specific set of processes limited to certain types >of materials. The fossilizing of bone is a different process again. The >original bone is lost and replaced by rock. That is a slight >simplification though, see here for details: > >http://www.asn.csus.edu/geol/Deptwebpage/kusnick/Geology105/pres.html Don't forget that bone is itself partly made out of rock (or more precisely, calcium phosphate, aka the mineral apatite). This is mentioned on your link, but I thought I would emphasize it. I have heard that it's not uncommon for fossilized bone -- even dinosaur bone -- to retain much of the original bone mineral, rather than everything being entirely replaced by substitute minerals, as is commonly taught. I rather like the idea that when you touch a fossil dinosaur bone you may actually be touching some of the original bone! -- John Brock jbrock@panix.com ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 70.70.200.108 Reply-To: "Chris Wright" From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <_1ggd.1695$up1.1416@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: It's all true! Lines: 5 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-ID: <%vOgd.65081$%k.2419@pd7tw2no> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 15:34:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1099150459 64.59.144.74 (Sat, 30 Oct 2004 09:34:19 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 09:34:19 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news2.euro.net!newsfeeder.wxs.nl!textfeed1.on.meganewsservers.com!meganewsservers.com!feeder2.on.meganewsservers.com!feed.cgocable.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163620 Well, you could put a bone in a grinder and come out with dust. Fling it in the air, and you've 'shrunk' the bone to nothing. ###### From: "TeaLady (Mari C.)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: 30 Oct 2004 18:45:40 GMT Organization: Lint Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <_1ggd.1695$up1.1416@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <%vOgd.65081$%k.2419@pd7tw2no> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de lzkf6BasZVHnZy/M8i4TEQny5ltLC+E7cRLfDxwM/GkFagQtQ/ User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 x-face: 8S?dQ)V'hP@.Lf3Ot.sv"e+zw7tDI4*y7F3ySvbXP%qrfyUVyXTSovH~=C}5]"*4K`e4q_@ ]OG'MH[A!iPTo6O:Ru:FUr,R6|%`H^>U:F)MjpAS&{^3A/Mq=/0ewP)VoUj7E^)Ilg`n%{z=R0d88: O{^)NYf]Ys.D#w`R':o+%gkH,f.bZyYp]`)+}?f8$&{,Gz@z9ou=N]Z}o0CI]q&n\\kz/Op@\cg15@S[z&bb'f`2T,a> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163624 "Chris Wright" wrote in news:%vOgd.65081$%k.2419@pd7tw2no: > Well, you could put a bone in a grinder and come out with > dust. > > Fling it in the air, and you've 'shrunk' the bone to > nothing. > > > Nuh uh. You've not shrunk it, just scattered it. It's still just as big, just re-formed. (or, rather, de-formed.) -- TeaLady (mari) "I keep telling you, chew with your mouth closed!" Kell the coach offers advice on keeping that elusive prey caught. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 70.70.200.108 Reply-To: "Chris Wright" From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <_1ggd.1695$up1.1416@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <%vOgd.65081$%k.2419@pd7tw2no> Subject: Re: It's all true! Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 20:16:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1099167389 64.59.144.74 (Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:16:29 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:16:29 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-fra1.dfn.de!news2.telebyte.nl!feed5.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163628 "TeaLady (Mari C.)" wrote in message news:Xns959296298E78Dspblt@130.133.1.4... > "Chris Wright" wrote in > news:%vOgd.65081$%k.2419@pd7tw2no: > >> Well, you could put a bone in a grinder and come out with >> dust. >> >> Fling it in the air, and you've 'shrunk' the bone to >> nothing. >> >> >> > > Nuh uh. You've not shrunk it, just scattered it. It's still > just as big, just re-formed. (or, rather, de-formed.) Yeah, but effectively, you've shrunk the bone. i.e. before, it measured, say, 35cm, and after, you cannot measure it with a ruler, because it's all over the place. ###### From: Javier Caselli Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: 30 Oct 2004 20:23:51 GMT Organization: Your Company Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <_1ggd.1695$up1.1416@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de EnhAoH5w9kCYgyxs93ELpwfjzT5XKMrBJkwjeswxl7bWHDgaUF User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163629 jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) wrote in news:clufgk$gjp$1@panix1.panix.com: > Don't forget that bone is itself partly made out of rock (or more > precisely, calcium phosphate, aka the mineral apatite). This is > mentioned on your link, but I thought I would emphasize it. I have > heard that it's not uncommon for fossilized bone -- even dinosaur > bone -- to retain much of the original bone mineral, rather than > everything being entirely replaced by substitute minerals, as is > commonly taught. I rather like the idea that when you touch a > fossil dinosaur bone you may actually be touching some of the > original bone! > Yes, it is the organic material of the bone what is lost during the process, that's because no DNA can be obtained of fossils. The case of the Homo Floresiensis is different, given that those bones were not fossilised, scientifics are optimistic that DNA samples could be obtained. I din't know however that bones retained their calcium phosphate, it's logical enough though, very interesting. ###### Message-ID: <41842BDA.39F1FAFB@yahoo-dot.ca> From: Odysseus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,fr-CA,fr,fr-FR,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! References: <_1ggd.1695$up1.1416@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <%vOgd.65081$%k.2419@pd7tw2no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:02:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.166.231.142 X-Trace: clgrps12 1099180962 198.166.231.142 (Sat, 30 Oct 2004 18:02:42 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 18:02:42 MDT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!clgrps12.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163641 Chris Wright wrote: > > "TeaLady (Mari C.)" wrote in message > news:Xns959296298E78Dspblt@130.133.1.4... > > "Chris Wright" wrote in > > news:%vOgd.65081$%k.2419@pd7tw2no: > > > >> Well, you could put a bone in a grinder and come out with > >> dust. > >> > >> Fling it in the air, and you've 'shrunk' the bone to > >> nothing. > > Nuh uh. You've not shrunk it, just scattered it. It's still > > just as big, just re-formed. (or, rather, de-formed.) > > Yeah, but effectively, you've shrunk the bone. i.e. before, it measured, > say, 35cm, and after, you cannot measure it with a ruler, because it's all > over the place. You're contradicting yourself. If you can't measure it, how can you conclude that it has shrunk? -- Odysseus ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 70.70.200.108 Reply-To: "Chris Wright" From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <_1ggd.1695$up1.1416@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <%vOgd.65081$%k.2419@pd7tw2no> <41842BDA.39F1FAFB@yahoo-dot.ca> Subject: Re: It's all true! Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 14:13:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1099232013 64.59.144.74 (Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:13:33 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:13:33 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163653 "Odysseus" wrote in message news:41842BDA.39F1FAFB@yahoo-dot.ca... > Chris Wright wrote: >> >> "TeaLady (Mari C.)" wrote in message >> news:Xns959296298E78Dspblt@130.133.1.4... >> > "Chris Wright" wrote in >> > news:%vOgd.65081$%k.2419@pd7tw2no: >> > >> >> Well, you could put a bone in a grinder and come out with >> >> dust. >> >> >> >> Fling it in the air, and you've 'shrunk' the bone to >> >> nothing. > >> > Nuh uh. You've not shrunk it, just scattered it. It's still >> > just as big, just re-formed. (or, rather, de-formed.) >> >> Yeah, but effectively, you've shrunk the bone. i.e. before, it measured, >> say, 35cm, and after, you cannot measure it with a ruler, because it's >> all >> over the place. > > You're contradicting yourself. If you can't measure it, how can you > conclude that it has shrunk? Well, it has effectively shrunk, precisely because you're unable to measure it. Technically it's the same mass, but good luck gathering up all the particles. ###### Message-ID: <41852C0D.CD82AFA3@yahoo-dot.ca> From: Odysseus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,fr-CA,fr,fr-FR,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! References: <_1ggd.1695$up1.1416@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <%vOgd.65081$%k.2419@pd7tw2no> <41842BDA.39F1FAFB@yahoo-dot.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 18:15:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.166.231.142 X-Trace: clgrps13 1099246548 198.166.231.142 (Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:15:48 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:15:48 MST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!clgrps13.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163659 Chris Wright wrote: > > Well, it has effectively shrunk, precisely because you're unable to measure > it. Technically it's the same mass, but good luck gathering up all the > particles. I still don't see how you can say anything about the size of something you can't measure. One might just as well argue that the powdered bones have grown, in the same way that a cloud of explosive debris appears to do. -- Odysseus ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 70.70.200.108 Reply-To: "Chris Wright" From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <_1ggd.1695$up1.1416@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <%vOgd.65081$%k.2419@pd7tw2no> <41842BDA.39F1FAFB@yahoo-dot.ca> <41852C0D.CD82AFA3@yahoo-dot.ca> Subject: Re: It's all true! Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:30:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1099326632 64.59.144.74 (Mon, 01 Nov 2004 09:30:32 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 09:30:32 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed2.ip.tiscali.net!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.giganews.com.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163698 "Odysseus" wrote in message news:41852C0D.CD82AFA3@yahoo-dot.ca... > Chris Wright wrote: >> >> Well, it has effectively shrunk, precisely because you're unable to >> measure >> it. Technically it's the same mass, but good luck gathering up all the >> particles. > > I still don't see how you can say anything about the size of > something you can't measure. Well, it confounds the experiment, and a dishonest researcher might come up with a specious conclusion in order to justify his salary. Though, I must concede -- it is getting increasingly difficult to argue that these recent archaelogical findings represent something -other- than a hobbit. =) ###### From: Tord Kallqvist Romstad Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: It's all true! Date: 01 Nov 2004 21:14:12 +0100 Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 14 Sender: romstad@europa.uio.no Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: europa.uio.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: readme.uio.no 1099340052 17378 129.240.223.234 (1 Nov 2004 20:14:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uio.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:14:12 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163712 Javier Caselli writes: > Nature can have it's influence too, in Europe, mediterranean people > enjoyed better weather conditions a less natural threats than nordics, > so nordics evolved to be taller and stronger (and quite mean looking > with those horned helmets vikings were son fond of) :D The horned helmets is a myth of relatively recent origin (some time during the 19th century, IIRC). There is some evidence that the ancestors of the vikings in the bronze age may have used horned helmets in religious ceremonies, but they were never used in battle. -- Tord Romstad