From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Lines: 125 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:31:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.102.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1097415079 82.44.102.80 (Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:31:19 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:31:19 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162472 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > "'Rope!' cried Sam, talking wildly to himself in his excitement and > relief. 'Well, if I don't deserve to be hung on the end of one as a > warning to numbskulls! You're nowt but a ninnyhammer, Sam Gamgee: > that's what the Gaffer said to me often enough, it being a word of > his. Rope!'" (Sam remembering he has a rope, The Taming of Smeagol) I thought there was something funny about this quote. I suddenly noticed that the: "...hung on the end of one as a warning to numbskulls!" bit seems to be a reference to capital punishment by hanging. I remember the topic of capital punishment in Middle-earth coming up in the discussion of the 'The Voice of Saruman' chapter, where there is a reference to a gibbet: "Too long have they escaped the gibbet themselves. But the noose comes, slow in the drawing, tight and hard in the end. Hang if you will!" (Saruman talking about the House of Eorl, The Voice of Saruman) Belba then mentioned Boromir asking if Gollum was put to death: "He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put him?" (Boromir, The Council of Elrond) and Faramir saying that Gollum's life (and previously Frodo and Sam for being in Ithilien without leave) was forfeit for coming to Henneth Annun, and that he himself will be put to death if his choice is wrong: "Were I as hasty as you, I might have slain you long ago. For I am commanded to slay all whom I find in this land without the leave of the Lord of Gondor. [...] I should now take you back to Minas Tirith to answer there to Denethor, and my life will justly be forfeit, if I now choose a course that proves ill for my city." (Faramir speaking to Frodo and Sam, The Window on the West) "But now he has done worse trespass than only to go coney-snaring in the uplands: he has dared to come to Henneth Annun, and his life is forfeit." (Faramir speaking of Gollum, The Forbidden Pool) There is also the bit where Eomer says his life may be forfeit if Aragorn does not return the horses: "In this I place myself, and maybe my very life, in the keeping of your good faith. Do not fail." (Eomer to Aragorn, The Riders of Rohan) And in Minas Tirith, Beregond's life would normally have been forfeit for spilling blood in Rath Dinen and for deserting his post: "Beregond, by your sword blood was spilled in the Hallows, where that is forbidden. Also you left your post without leave of Lord or of Captain. For these things, of old, death was the penalty. Now therefore I must pronounce your doom." (Aragorn speaking to Beregond, The Steward and the King) And of course we have Gandalf's words to Frodo after Frodo says that Gollum deserves death: "...do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement." (The Shadow of the Past) And Frodo's version of this: "...be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety." (The Taming of Smeagol) And of course Sam and Frodo were merciful and showed pity to Gollum. Which is pretty central to the whole story. Jens Kilian also mentioned that Bree punished people by banishing them from the village: "we showed them the gates and pushed them out" (Butterbur talking to the hobbits and Gandalf, Homeward Bound) And Wormtongue was given the option of exile (despite Eomer wanting to kill him) with a hint of worse to come later if he returned: "This is your choice: to ride with me to war, and let us see in battle whether you are true; or to go now, whither you will. But then, if ever we meet again, I shall not be merciful." (Theoden's ultimatum to Wormtongue, The King of the Golden Hall) There is an implication that the Ents would have killed Saruman if they had caught him at the initial assault on Isengard, but Treebeard and Gandalf left Saruman locked in Orthanc, though the Ents later freed him (under the influence of Saruman's voice). The hobbits later want to put Saruman and the ruffians to death, but Frodo restrains them (all the following are rather frightening examples of mob justice - seemingly less civilised than the military justice of Rohan/Gondor): "But remember: there is to be no slaying of hobbits, not even if they have gone over to the other side. Really gone over, I mean; not just obeying ruffians' orders because they are frightened. No hobbit has ever killed another on purpose in the Shire, and it is not to begin now. And nobody is to be killed at all, if it can be helped." (Frodo, The Scouring of the Shire) I guess Frodo's "no hobbit has ever killed another on purpose in the Shire" means that Sam's "hung on the end of [a rope]" bit must be referring to tales of those outside the Shire or before the Shire was founded. At the Battle of Bywater, Frodo's: "chief part had been to prevent the hobbits in their wrath at their losses, from slaying those of their enemies who threw down their weapons." (The Scouring of the Shire) Then we have the hobbits reaction to Saruman: "Don't let him go! Kill him! He's a villain and a murderer. Kill him!" But Frodo restrains them here, and later when Saruman attacks him. But he is unable to stop the hobbits killing Wormtongue. Can anyone think of other examples of justice, punishment, and capital punishment (and maybe related mercy in justice) in any of Tolkien's writings? Especially 'The Hobbit' and 'The Silmarillion'? Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:23:59 -0500 Message-ID: <41698C52.11775F58@operamail.com> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:24:02 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.80.74.154 X-Trace: sv3-QswzC57edSfLm6w9JP1rJ7SNykk2NDfqBq2/nUkO8Hmaz+D/RNCmakMSexw/Oe5r6ITEB6pI7mZENxY!fur8x4k8C6FKbLy92ZN/S0W6w9C1qYEnHijIjqPh72AFwus3jfmn4WlITJQblXrYyg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162497 Stan Brown wrote: > > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Belba then mentioned Boromir asking if Gollum was put to death: > > > >"He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in > >mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put him?" (Boromir, > >The Council of Elrond) > > "Doom" in that quote means "fate" not "death". In modern language, > Boromir was asking, "What did you do with him? Imprisonment, death, > or what?" > "Doom" in LotR has both its old meaning, as when Elrond says "that > is the doom that we must deem", and its modern meaning, as when > Boromir mutters "The Halfling! Is then the doom of Minas Tirith come > at last?" > Not fate so much as judgement, legal decision, sentence. Dooms Day is literally Old English (domdaeg) for Judgement Day. So the "doom we must deem" would be in Mod. parlance, The decision we must decide, Or the judgement we must judge. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41698C52.11775F58@operamail.com> Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Lines: 26 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:06:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.102.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1097438767 82.44.102.80 (Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:06:07 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:06:07 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162507 Larry Swain wrote: > Stan Brown wrote: >> "Doom" in LotR has both its old meaning, as when Elrond says "that >> is the doom that we must deem", and its modern meaning, as when >> Boromir mutters "The Halfling! Is then the doom of Minas Tirith come >> at last?" >> > Not fate so much as judgement, legal decision, sentence. Dooms > Day is literally Old English (domdaeg) for Judgement Day. > > So the "doom we must deem" would be in Mod. parlance, The > decision we must decide, Or the judgement we must judge. Hang on. Are you saying that 'deem' is a verb of 'doom'? Or that 'doom' is a noun-verb or something. I think what I am trying to say is: are 'doom' and 'deem' different forms of the same word? Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: TT Arvind Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:36:12 +0100 Organization: Ents for the Great Teuncitarian Revolution Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <41698C52.11775F58@operamail.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de MGZMsRQUfS0KJMyeA0jpyw8hTNig+ViO6c63DDTLYuzgkyGjjm X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-News-Feed: Purina(TM) Dried Posts X-Ray-Glasses: Activated X-Files: Is a stupid waste of time Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162510 Wes ðu Christopher Kreuzer hal! > Hang on. Are you saying that 'deem' is a verb of 'doom'? Or that 'doom' > is a noun-verb or something. I think what I am trying to say is: are > 'doom' and 'deem' different forms of the same word? In a sense. In Old English, the two words were distinct - "doom" was 'dóm' and "deem" was 'déman'. But both are thought to come from the same proto-Germanic root. ("dóm", by the way, is also where the modern -dom suffix - as in freedom - comes from) -- Meneldil A chicken is an egg's way of producing more eggs. ###### From: nat_mann@yahoo.com (Natman) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Message-ID: <416974dc.5868127@netnews.comcast.net> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 138 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.5.115.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s52 1097430566 24.5.115.189 (Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:49:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:49:26 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:49:26 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s52.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162480 On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:31:19 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote: >Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > >> "'Rope!' cried Sam, talking wildly to himself in his excitement and >> relief. 'Well, if I don't deserve to be hung on the end of one as a >> warning to numbskulls! You're nowt but a ninnyhammer, Sam Gamgee: >> that's what the Gaffer said to me often enough, it being a word of >> his. Rope!'" (Sam remembering he has a rope, The Taming of Smeagol) > >I thought there was something funny about this quote. I suddenly noticed >that the: "...hung on the end of one as a warning to numbskulls!" bit >seems to be a reference to capital punishment by hanging. > >I remember the topic of capital punishment in Middle-earth coming up in >the discussion of the 'The Voice of Saruman' chapter, where there is a >reference to a gibbet: > >"Too long have they escaped the gibbet themselves. But the noose comes, >slow in the drawing, tight and hard in the end. Hang if you will!" >(Saruman talking about the House of Eorl, The Voice of Saruman) > >Belba then mentioned Boromir asking if Gollum was put to death: > >"He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in >mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put him?" (Boromir, >The Council of Elrond) > >and Faramir saying that Gollum's life (and previously Frodo and Sam for >being in Ithilien without leave) was forfeit for coming to Henneth >Annun, and that he himself will be put to death if his choice is wrong: > >"Were I as hasty as you, I might have slain you long ago. For I am >commanded to slay all whom I find in this land without the leave of the >Lord of Gondor. [...] I should now take you back to Minas Tirith to >answer there to Denethor, and my life will justly be forfeit, if I now >choose a course that proves ill for my city." (Faramir speaking to Frodo >and Sam, The Window on the West) > >"But now he has done worse trespass than only to go coney-snaring in the >uplands: he has dared to come to Henneth Annun, and his life is >forfeit." (Faramir speaking of Gollum, The Forbidden Pool) > >There is also the bit where Eomer says his life may be forfeit if >Aragorn does not return the horses: > >"In this I place myself, and maybe my very life, in the keeping of your >good faith. Do not fail." (Eomer to Aragorn, The Riders of Rohan) > >And in Minas Tirith, Beregond's life would normally have been forfeit >for spilling blood in Rath Dinen and for deserting his post: > >"Beregond, by your sword blood was spilled in the Hallows, where that is >forbidden. Also you left your post without leave of Lord or of Captain. >For these things, of old, death was the penalty. Now therefore I must >pronounce your doom." (Aragorn speaking to Beregond, The Steward and the >King) > >And of course we have Gandalf's words to Frodo after Frodo says that >Gollum deserves death: > >"...do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement." (The Shadow of >the Past) > >And Frodo's version of this: > >"...be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing >for your own safety." (The Taming of Smeagol) > >And of course Sam and Frodo were merciful and showed pity to Gollum. >Which is pretty central to the whole story. > >Jens Kilian also mentioned that Bree punished people by banishing them >from the village: > >"we showed them the gates and pushed them out" (Butterbur talking to the >hobbits and Gandalf, Homeward Bound) > >And Wormtongue was given the option of exile (despite Eomer wanting to >kill him) with a hint of worse to come later if he returned: > >"This is your choice: to ride with me to war, and let us see in battle >whether you are true; or to go now, whither you will. But then, if ever >we meet again, I shall not be merciful." (Theoden's ultimatum to >Wormtongue, The King of the Golden Hall) > >There is an implication that the Ents would have killed Saruman if they >had caught him at the initial assault on Isengard, but Treebeard and >Gandalf left Saruman locked in Orthanc, though the Ents later freed him >(under the influence of Saruman's voice). The hobbits later want to put >Saruman and the ruffians to death, but Frodo restrains them (all the >following are rather frightening examples of mob justice - seemingly >less civilised than the military justice of Rohan/Gondor): > >"But remember: there is to be no slaying of hobbits, not even if they >have gone over to the other side. Really gone over, I mean; not just >obeying ruffians' orders because they are frightened. No hobbit has ever >killed another on purpose in the Shire, and it is not to begin now. And >nobody is to be killed at all, if it can be helped." (Frodo, The >Scouring of the Shire) > >I guess Frodo's "no hobbit has ever killed another on purpose in the >Shire" means that Sam's "hung on the end of [a rope]" bit must be >referring to tales of those outside the Shire or before the Shire was >founded. > >At the Battle of Bywater, Frodo's: "chief part had been to prevent the >hobbits in their wrath at their losses, from slaying those of their >enemies who threw down their weapons." (The Scouring of the Shire) > >Then we have the hobbits reaction to Saruman: > >"Don't let him go! Kill him! He's a villain and a murderer. Kill him!" > >But Frodo restrains them here, and later when Saruman attacks him. But >he is unable to stop the hobbits killing Wormtongue. > >Can anyone think of other examples of justice, punishment, and capital >punishment (and maybe related mercy in justice) in any of Tolkien's >writings? Especially 'The Hobbit' and 'The Silmarillion'? > >Christopher > >-- >--- >Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard There's Gandalf's speech to Frodo concerning Gollum (FOTR, the Shadow of the Past): Frodo: "He deserves death" Gandalf: "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement." ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:12:30 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162488 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Belba then mentioned Boromir asking if Gollum was put to death: > >"He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in >mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put him?" (Boromir, >The Council of Elrond) "Doom" in that quote means "fate" not "death". In modern language, Boromir was asking, "What did you do with him? Imprisonment, death, or what?" "Doom" in LotR has both its old meaning, as when Elrond says "that is the doom that we must deem", and its modern meaning, as when Boromir mutters "The Halfling! Is then the doom of Minas Tirith come at last?" -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:15:31 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162490 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: [many examples, snipped] Some of those are indeed instances of justice, I agree. But I think many are not matters of punishment but of public safety. The Bree-landers exiled troublemakers not so much to punish them a to keep their community safe. The hobbits called for Saruman to die so that they would be safe from him. Faramir is commanded to slay wanderers in Ithilien not because they are trespassing but because they are presumptively spies. And so forth. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:26:23 -0500 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 12:29:51 -0700 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 79 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-jY733CDpT7yhRI6LMK+yCk7pycppSllFGU6MJ3xrK03LrA2RTcAVDqlIse+lEc7NK4IL0/FDo0deGQK!ASxfJcE5O7IfuSjRdap0JL4uXxIT6Smezef/ECuwsdQemgGM5KHmn47TBhyuCVTWtvU8FhNh7aum!fyTYKLnV X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.netkonect.net!news-peer0-test!btnet!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!38.144.126.100.MISMATCH!feed5.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162498 In article , spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk says... > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > > Can anyone think of other examples of justice, punishment, and capital > punishment (and maybe related mercy in justice) in any of Tolkien's > writings? Especially 'The Hobbit' and 'The Silmarillion'? The Hobbit: Then the elves put thongs on him [Thorin], and shut him in one of the inmost caves with strong wooden doors, and left him. They gave him food and drink, plenty of both, if not very fine; for Wood-elves were not goblins, and were reasonably well-behaved even to their worst enemies, when they captured them. The giant spiders were the only living things that they had no mercy upon." The Silmarillion: "Then Eöl mounted his horse, saying: 'It is good, Lord Curufin, to find a kinsman thus kindly at need. I will remember it when I return.' Then Curufin looked darkly upon Eöl. 'Do not flaunt the title of your wife before me,' he said. 'For those who steal the daughters of the Noldor and wed them without gift or leave do not gain kinship with their kin. I have given you leave to go. Take it, and be gone. By the laws of the Eldar I may not slay you at this time. And this counsel I add: return now to your dwelling in the darkness of Nan El-moth; for my heart warns me that if you now pursue those who love you no more, never will you return thither.'" "'Lord,' he cried, 'the Guard have taken captive one that came by stealth to the Dark Gate. Eöl he names himself, and he is a tall Elf, dark and grim, of the kindred of the Sindar; yet he claims the Lady Aredhel as his wife, and demands to be brought before you. His wrath is great and he is hard to restrain; but we have not slain him as your law commands.'" "Then Turgon sat in his high seat holding his staff of doom, and in a stem voice spoke: 'I will not debate with you. Dark Elf. By the swords of the Noldor alone are your sunless woods defended. Your freedom to wander there wild you owe to my kin; and but for them long since you would have laboured in thraldom in the pits of Angband. And here I am King; and whether you will it or will it not, my doom is law. This choice only is given to you: to abide here, or to die here; and so also for your son.'" He is later executed by being thrown over the Caragdur. "Then silence fell upon the hall, for those that stood there were astounded and afraid, and they thought that Beren would be slain. But Thingol spoke slowly, saying: 'Death you have earned with these words; and death you should find suddenly, had I not sworn an oath in haste; of which I repent, baseborn mortal, who in the realm of Morgoth has learnt to creep in secret as his spies and thralls.'" Unfinished Tales: "'Then Voronwë will remember also the laws of his land,' said the voice. 'Since by command he went forth, he has the right to return. But not to lead hither any stranger. By that deed his right is void, and he must be led as a prisoner to the king's judgement. As for the stranger, he shall be slain or held captive at the judgement of the Guard. Lead him hither that I may judge.'" Morgoth's Ring: "The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates." -- Tar-Elenion He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. ###### From: TT Arvind Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:53:56 +0100 Organization: Ents for the Great Teuncitarian Revolution Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de TQkV1F96zwJEaFpR7kBPcwPKXGqUxFujwf9iU5WqFy4yhDwhds X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-News-Feed: Purina(TM) Dried Posts X-Ray-Glasses: Activated X-Files: Is a stupid waste of time Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162504 Wes ðu Christopher Kreuzer hal! > Can anyone think of other examples of justice, punishment, and capital > punishment (and maybe related mercy in justice) in any of Tolkien's > writings? Especially 'The Hobbit' and 'The Silmarillion'? 'In Arda Marred Justice is not Healing. Healing cometh only by suffering and patience, and maketh no demand, not even for Justice. Justice worketh only within the bonds of things as they are, accepting the marring of Arda, and therefore though Justice is itself good and desireth no further evil, it can but perpetuate the evil that was, and doth not prevent it from the bearing of fruit in sorrow. Thus the Statute was just, but it accepted Death and the severance of Finwë and Míriel, a thing unnatural in Arda Unmarred, and therefore with reference to Arda Unmarred it was unnatural and fraught with Death. The liberty that it gave was a lower road that, if it led not still downwards, could not again ascend. But Healing must retain ever the thought of Arda Unmarred, and if it cannot ascend, must abide in patience. This is Hope which, I deem, is before all else the virtue most fair in the Children of Eru, but cannot be commanded to come when needed: patience must often long await it.' (From /Laws and Customs of the Eldar/) -- Meneldil What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. That is the entire law; all the rest is commentary. - Hillel ###### From: TT Arvind Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:58:25 +0100 Organization: Ents for the Great Teuncitarian Revolution Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de I+9SYOfyxlLFpGF6DjXXMwj8M6oE5LvdR+yqmSrtns8wb0yzSt X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-News-Feed: Purina(TM) Dried Posts X-Ray-Glasses: Activated X-Files: Is a stupid waste of time Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162505 Wes ðu Stan Brown hal! > The Bree-landers exiled troublemakers not so much to punish them a > to keep their community safe. The hobbits called for Saruman to die > so that they would be safe from him. Faramir is commanded to slay > wanderers in Ithilien not because they are trespassing but because > they are presumptively spies. And so forth. I agree. A similar example from Sil. is the law of Turgon that all strangers in Gondolin were to be slain. I do wonder what JRRT's opinion on such rules for presumptively killing someone to keep a community safe was, though. -- Meneldil Armadillo: To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Lines: 64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:23:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.102.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1097439819 82.44.102.80 (Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:23:39 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:23:39 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162508 TT Arvind wrote: > Wes ðu Stan Brown hal! >> The Bree-landers exiled troublemakers not so much to punish them a >> to keep their community safe. The hobbits called for Saruman to die >> so that they would be safe from him. Faramir is commanded to slay >> wanderers in Ithilien not because they are trespassing but because >> they are presumptively spies. And so forth. > > I agree. A similar example from Sil. is the law of Turgon that all > strangers in Gondolin were to be slain. I think it was just not allowed to leave. Hurin and Huor - though that became an exception when they left. Maeglin and Eol: Maeglin chose to stay, and Eol was chucked off a cliff for killing Aredhel. No. Hang on. You are right: "I will not debate with you. Dark Elf. By the swords of the Noldor alone are your sunless woods defended. Your freedom to wander there wild you owe to my kin; and but for them long since you would have laboured in thraldom in the pits of Angband. And here I am King; and whether you will it or will it not, my doom is law. This choice only is given to you: to abide here, or to die here; and so also for your son." (Turgon speaking to Eol, Of Maeglin, The Silmarillion) Turgon is described as stern. Holding his staff of doom no less! > I do wonder what JRRT's > opinion on such rules for presumptively killing someone to keep a > community safe was, though. I think there is another example when it is implied that Thingol will slay Beren: "[Luthien] would reveal nothing, until he swore an oath to her that he would neither slay Beren nor imprison him. [...] [Thingol later says:] 'Can you show reason why my power should not be laid on you [Beren] in heavy punishment for your insolence and folly?' [...] [Beren gives a proud reply and Thingol and the elves react thus:] Then silence fell upon the hall, for those that stood there were astounded and afraid, and they thought that Beren would be slain. But Thingol spoke slowly, saying: 'Death you have earned with these words; and death you should find suddenly, had I not sworn an oath in haste; of which I repent...'" (Of Beren and Luthien, The Silmarillion) OK. That's not really an example of presumptive killing to keep the realm safe. But it is probably fair to say that all such examples (in Rohan, Gondor, Doriath, Gondolin) are because the realm is at war. As for Tolkien's opinion, is it reflected in his writings where we see at least two exceptions to this rule? Eomer and Faramir allow Aragorn and Frodo to go free. Maybe Tolkien is saying that cases should be judged on an individual basis (see also the example of Beregond)? I still find the case of Turgon and Eol to be a bit OTT. And Thingol as well. But maybe that is because LotR is 'nicer' than the 'harsh' Silmarillion? Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: TT Arvind Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:42:49 +0100 Organization: Ents for the Great Teuncitarian Revolution Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de hqP9zfdkBexWOk9t7OGXggHCKMHMuOstNZJHAP5K9hyAleRGDN X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-News-Feed: Purina(TM) Dried Posts X-Ray-Glasses: Activated X-Files: Is a stupid waste of time Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162511 Wes ðu Christopher Kreuzer hal! > "I will not debate with you. Dark Elf. By the swords of the Noldor alone > are your sunless woods defended. Your freedom to wander there wild you > owe to my kin; and but for them long since you would have laboured in > thraldom in the pits of Angband. And here I am King; and whether you > will it or will it not, my doom is law. This choice only is given to > you: to abide here, or to die here; and so also for your son." (Turgon > speaking to Eol, Of Maeglin, The Silmarillion) And even more so a little earlier, when the guards tell Turgid of Eel's arrival, and say that they have not slain him as as the law commands. > As for Tolkien's opinion, is it reflected in his writings where we see > at least two exceptions to this rule? Eomer and Faramir allow Aragorn > and Frodo to go free. Maybe Tolkien is saying that cases should be > judged on an individual basis (see also the example of Beregond)? Fair enough, but the fact remains that these cases are exceptions to the rule, and it is the rule that I personally find a little harsh, even if it was made in wartime. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Lines: 61 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:46:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.102.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1097441178 82.44.102.80 (Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:46:18 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:46:18 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162512 Stan Brown wrote: > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> Belba then mentioned Boromir asking if Gollum was put to death: >> >> "He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in >> mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put him?" >> (Boromir, The Council of Elrond) > > "Doom" in that quote means "fate" not "death". In modern language, > Boromir was asking, "What did you do with him? Imprisonment, death, > or what?" The "put" bit reminds me of the phrase "he was put to death". But I guess you can 'put' lots of things... > "Doom" in LotR has both its old meaning, as when Elrond says "that > is the doom that we must deem", and its modern meaning, as when > Boromir mutters "The Halfling! Is then the doom of Minas Tirith come > at last?" Nice. Doom is one word that resonates throughout the books. I must remember that distinction though! It is not easy to be sure. How about "and doom fell upon Tinuviel"? And Beren's feet that "over hills were doomed to roam"? These two are obvously more fate than judgement (picking up on Larry's distinction between the two). Heh. And I wonder which sense is meant for Mount Doom? "On Mount Doom doom shall fall." (Frodo) And the Doom of dumbeats!! (onomatopoeic) Celeborn and Galadriel talk about Doom as well. "To Isengard with Doom we come!" (the Ents) The bits with Faramir and Gollum are a nice illustration of the distinction between judgement and death, as well as the close connection: "'Then I will declare my doom,' said Faramir [...] 'This doom shall stand for a year and a day...' [to Frodo, and then to Gollum:] you are under doom of death [...] Yet if ever you be found by any man of Gondor astray without [Frodo] the doom shall fall." (The Window on the West) The Lord of the Ring-wraiths had met his doom. Stand, Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom. And it is interesting how the Ring of Power, Ruling Ring (and other names besides) becomes (after it is destroyed) the Ring of Doom. And 'The Silmarillion' is, ermm, very doomy. :-) Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: Troels Forchhammer Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:44:04 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Cybercity Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: port223.ds1-hh.adsl.cybercity.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.cybercity.dk 1097444644 34704 217.157.189.228 (10 Oct 2004 21:44:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cybercity.dk NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:44:04 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 X-Face: "Rt@v9]z5%&{}CPvx9[[dd!0V;NzH~|$@#;V"K4i{YbxWjfz]mC2l58XKtr\D58h*!j\LqJJ{04fO\KD2NzCYZXs~$2J(yKvlS Stan Brown enriched us with: > > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> >> "He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in >> mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put him?" >> (Boromir, The Council of Elrond) > > "Doom" in that quote means "fate" not "death". In modern language, > Boromir was asking, "What did you do with him? Imprisonment, > death, or what?" > > "Doom" in LotR has both its old meaning, as when Elrond says "that > is the doom that we must deem", and its modern meaning, as when > Boromir mutters "The Halfling! Is then the doom of Minas Tirith > come at last?" Leaning heavily on the Scandinavian uses of 'dom' here . . . I think that all of these can be explained using the old meaning -- a decision about the fate of something. Boromir is asking if this, at last is when the fate of Minas Tirith will be decided. This would also include the Doom of Mandos -- a decision that decided the fate of the exiles. The sense of 'judgement' is, I think, also covered. The word involves a decision or judgement, but a strong sense of fate is implied -- it is decision or judgement that affects the fates of those involved: it is not just a decision of whether you want strawberry or vanilla flavour in your ice cream (though in the end the removal of the vanilla flavour might be the result of the doom of the customers). -- Troels Forchhammer Valid mail is Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men. - Lord Acton, in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887. ###### From: Troels Forchhammer Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:57:54 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Cybercity Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: port223.ds1-hh.adsl.cybercity.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.cybercity.dk 1097445474 34704 217.157.189.228 (10 Oct 2004 21:57:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cybercity.dk NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:57:54 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 X-Face: "Rt@v9]z5%&{}CPvx9[[dd!0V;NzH~|$@#;V"K4i{YbxWjfz]mC2l58XKtr\D58h*!j\LqJJ{04fO\KD2NzCYZXs~$2J(yKvlS Stan Brown enriched us with: > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > [many examples, snipped] > > Some of those are indeed instances of justice, I agree. But I think > many are not matters of punishment but of public safety. Not sure that I'm ready to engage in a discussion of morality, but still: are these truly separable when we're speaking of sentencing wrong-doers? Are the motives of safety, revenge and 'poetic justice' not all intertwined in punishing and our perception of justice? > The Bree-landers exiled troublemakers not so much to punish them > as to keep their community safe. Being thrown out into the wild was definitely also a punishment, I'd say. > The hobbits called for Saruman to die so that they would be safe > from him. But also out of revenge, and as a punishment for his evil deeds. > Faramir is commanded to slay wanderers in Ithilien not because > they are trespassing but because they are presumptively spies. That's a better example, but in that case there is no real proof that these persons were actually trespassing with evil intent, so 'justice' in the meaning of the punishment of those who have sinned wouldn't really enter into the picture. -- Troels Forchhammer Valid mail is Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men. - Lord Acton, in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 22:52:41 -0500 Message-ID: <416A038C.88C181EC@operamail.com> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 22:52:44 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) References: <41698C52.11775F58@operamail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.80.74.27 X-Trace: sv3-MxIFOidOXdiDiMbYfTQMExsfiwlc5A0ne7ixxh+ae2Pok44oswxSUfQgm0xz/4/xX9RJUTNvStRdoAu!j/pxUXuJZ17hhVLSDTOUXQx5MvnghfO79MPxIEy1PB7ojaYdfeOqGDLsjpYVCVzl X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162539 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > > Larry Swain wrote: > > Stan Brown wrote: > > > > >> "Doom" in LotR has both its old meaning, as when Elrond says "that > >> is the doom that we must deem", and its modern meaning, as when > >> Boromir mutters "The Halfling! Is then the doom of Minas Tirith come > >> at last?" > >> > > Not fate so much as judgement, legal decision, sentence. Dooms > > Day is literally Old English (domdaeg) for Judgement Day. > > > > So the "doom we must deem" would be in Mod. parlance, The > > decision we must decide, Or the judgement we must judge. > > Hang on. Are you saying that 'deem' is a verb of 'doom'? Or that 'doom' > is a noun-verb or something. I think what I am trying to say is: are > 'doom' and 'deem' different forms of the same word? Yes. They come from the same root. dom is the noun, deman is the Old English form of the verb, long e. We do it with a few words in MOdern English too: sing a song, for example. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 22:59:00 -0500 Message-ID: <416A0506.4179227D@operamail.com> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 22:59:02 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) References: <41698C52.11775F58@operamail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.80.74.27 X-Trace: sv3-lDR5kqcCBoRFJTVJUZcgo289ETl74PTlNG/DirX9XaDhZkTueIFwUQgnWXjc+1bJngz9n4b8jMekIEP!NDt08TMd43vdbh/s5pnQ0tmv/m+H/frKcka9mq/PUaDDR88OPtoKJW8qgU+vYzYw X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162540 TT Arvind wrote: > > Wes ðu Christopher Kreuzer hal! > > > Hang on. Are you saying that 'deem' is a verb of 'doom'? Or that 'doom' > > is a noun-verb or something. I think what I am trying to say is: are > > 'doom' and 'deem' different forms of the same word? > > In a sense. In Old English, the two words were distinct - "doom" was > 'dóm' and "deem" was 'déman'. But both are thought to come from the > same proto-Germanic root. Indo-European languages generally do this with a number of common words. To take a Latin example: amo, to love; amor, love; amans, the part. but also adj. loving; and so on...... > ("dóm", by the way, is also where the modern -dom suffix - as in freedom > - comes from) and kingdom ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:00:23 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162531 On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:58:25 +0100, TT Arvind wrote: > >I agree. A similar example from Sil. is the law of Turgon that all >strangers in Gondolin were to be slain. I do wonder what JRRT's opinion >on such rules for presumptively killing someone to keep a community safe >was, though. He probably approved since he read it in an Anglo-Saxon law book. the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- God? I'm no God! God has MERCY! ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 04:01:35 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4169fd1a.85611649@news.saix.net> References: Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: tpr-ip-nas-2-p37.telkom-ipnet.co.za X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1097467901 25389 155.239.169.37 (11 Oct 2004 04:11:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 2004 04:11:41 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!news-peer1!btnet-feed3!news-peer0-test!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162542 On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:12:30 -0400, Stan Brown wrote: >"Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in >rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Belba then mentioned Boromir asking if Gollum was put to death: >> >>"He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in >>mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put him?" (Boromir, >>The Council of Elrond) > >"Doom" in that quote means "fate" not "death". In modern language, >Boromir was asking, "What did you do with him? Imprisonment, death, >or what?" Doesn't it mean verdict and sentence? Fate is impersonals, and is what happens to you because of circumstances. Doom is the verdict and sentence of a court, based on a specific charge, and is not nearly as capricious and arbitrary as fate. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: "Shanahan" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:27:51 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-087.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162533 Troels Forchhammer creatively typed: > Stan Brown enriched us with: > > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote: > > > > > > "He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great > > > in mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put > > > him?" (Boromir, The Council of Elrond) > > > > "Doom" in LotR has both its old meaning, as when Elrond says > > "that is the doom that we must deem", and its modern meaning, > > as when Boromir mutters "The Halfling! Is then the doom of > > Minas Tirith come at last?" > > Leaning heavily on the Scandinavian uses of 'dom' here . . . > I think that all of these can be explained using the old meaning > -- a decision about the fate of something. > Boromir is asking if this, at last is when the fate of Minas > Tirith will be decided. > This would also include the Doom of Mandos -- a decision that > decided the fate of the exiles. > The sense of 'judgement' is, I think, also covered. > The word involves a decision or judgement, but a strong sense of > fate is implied -- it is decision or judgement that affects the > fates of those involved This fits pretty exactly with the Latin etymology of the word 'fate', also. Fate is inescapable, the word of the gods. But we also find in Tolkien that 'fate' is not inescapable; 'chance' and the courage and pity of those involved will also affect the outcome of a decision. (Not to mention the ol' 'free will'.) Tolkien may have varied between using the modern words 'doom', 'fortune', 'chance' and 'fate', because there is no exact modern equivalent for the word he was really thinking of: Old English '/wyrd/'. Shippey has some interesting things to say about this (he is discussing 'chance' versus 'fate'): "The Old English word is /wyrd/, which most glossaries and dictionaries translate as 'fate' [Shippey is disagreeing with this translation]. Tolkien knew that the etymologies of the two words were quite different, 'fate' coming from the Latin /fari/, 'to speak', so, 'that which has been spoken', sc. by the gods. The Old English word derives from /weorþan/, 'to become': it means 'what has become'..../Wyrd/ can be an oppressive force, then, for no one can change the past; but it is perhaps not as oppressive as 'fate' or even 'fortune'...." Beowulf: "/Wyrd/ often spares the man who is not doomed....as long as his courage holds." Ciaran S. -- From the wildness of my heart I cannot exclude the question whether railway-engineers, if they had been brought up on more fantasy, might not have done better with all their abundant means than they commonly do. - JRRT ###### From: Dirk Thierbach Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 08:56:52 +0200 Lines: 11 Message-ID: <20041011065652.2F5.2.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> References: Reply-To: Dirk Thierbach X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de lTrPf+HYK2LeiFvQIi/dEgdqPwrh2sCs9/RU6F4tgdeegn1thePsnlDQ== X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.7.5-20040615 ("Gighay") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.26 (i686)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162548 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > As for Tolkien's opinion, is it reflected in his writings where we see > at least two exceptions to this rule? I think Tolkien is imitating the general style of the sagas etc. here, where judgements (and their consequences wrt. the fate/doom of the persons involved) are more prominent. And I guess by looking at the later consequences that some of these judgements have, you can find out at least a bit about his opinions on them. - Dirk ###### From: Dirk Thierbach Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:26:38 +0200 Lines: 30 Message-ID: <20041011072638.59E.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> References: Reply-To: Dirk Thierbach X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de JCiK6i3wWfXXX00Y1joRNQu+ZeaD3EXyAbqsBxyeAWmTa92qQkMTQvxg== X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.7.5-20040615 ("Gighay") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.26 (i686)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162551 Shanahan wrote: > Fate is inescapable, the word of the gods. But we also find in > Tolkien that 'fate' is not inescapable; Is it? There are several attempts by people to "escape" their fate (e.g. Turin); but in they end, they don't succeed, and it is exactly their actions that cause the "prophecies" to come true (a common theme in fairy-tales). After all, their fate is determined by the way they are, by their character, so they cannot escape themselves. It's this tension between "inescapable fate" and the attempts to escape them nevertheless that makes the stories interesting. > 'chance' and the courage and pity of those involved will also affect > the outcome of a decision. (Not to mention the ol' 'free will'.) Hm. Is there any example in Tolkien where these things have changed the "fate"? I cannot think of any at the moment. > Shippey has some interesting things to say about this (he is > discussing 'chance' versus 'fate'): [snip quote about etymology] This is not from "The Road to Middle Earth", is it? There's also some interesting discussion in several places in this book, beyond the etymology. - Dirk ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 10:01:33 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162557 "TT Arvind" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >A similar example from Sil. is the law of Turgon that all >strangers in Gondolin were to be slain. I do wonder what JRRT's opinion >on such rules for presumptively killing someone to keep a community safe >was, though. D we see any instance where the law is ever executed? All I can think of is examples of people trying to make fair judgment despite the law. Faramir didn't kill Frodo, Gollum, or Sam; Turgon didn't kill Eol; etc. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Troels Forchhammer Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:22:18 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Cybercity Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <20041011072638.59E.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: port223.ds1-hh.adsl.cybercity.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.cybercity.dk 1097518938 7882 217.157.189.228 (11 Oct 2004 18:22:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cybercity.dk NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:22:18 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 X-Face: "Rt@v9]z5%&{}CPvx9[[dd!0V;NzH~|$@#;V"K4i{YbxWjfz]mC2l58XKtr\D58h*!j\LqJJ{04fO\KD2NzCYZXs~$2J(yKvlS Dirk Thierbach enriched us with: > Shanahan wrote: > >> Fate is inescapable, the word of the gods. But we also find in >> Tolkien that 'fate' is not inescapable; > > Is it? There are several attempts by people to "escape" their fate > (e.g. Turin); but in they end, they don't succeed, and it is > exactly their actions that cause the "prophecies" to come true (a > common theme in fairy-tales). After all, their fate is determined > by the way they are, by their character, so they cannot escape > themselves. Is there a difference between 'destiny' and 'fate' in English? And in that case, would either apply better than the other in this case? Frodo was 'meant' by the Valar or Eru to take the Ring to Mordor -- that task was appointed to him, as Elrond concludes. But he still had a choice whether to take up the task or not, he held himself the power to accept that doom or to reject it. It was, in a sense, his own choice whether to take up the fate that was laid before him. The case of Turin is a bit more complex. By trying to work against his fate, he fulfilled it, but part of this was also due to Morgoth's malice (as I read it), that followed him. That his fate always caught up with him was not always by his own errors alone. > It's this tension between "inescapable fate" and the attempts to > escape them nevertheless that makes the stories interesting. That as well as the acceptance of the tasks set by some higher powers, as in the case of Frodo. >> 'chance' and the courage and pity of those involved will also >> affect the outcome of a decision. (Not to mention the ol' 'free >> will'.) > > Hm. Is there any example in Tolkien where these things have > changed the "fate"? I cannot think of any at the moment. I can't either, but I think that part of the message is that the characters still choose their actions themselves -- they are not bereft of their free will to act, but somehow they always end up doing as they were fated. Some of this might be the Catholic, or Christian, speaking: whether you accept God or reject Him, you will nevertheless end up doing his will. -- Troels Forchhammer Valid mail is Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men. - Lord Acton, in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20041011072638.59E.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Lines: 125 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:21:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.102.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1097522519 82.44.102.80 (Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:21:59 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:21:59 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162567 Troels Forchhammer wrote: > Dirk Thierbach enriched us with: >> Shanahan wrote: >>> Fate is inescapable, the word of the gods. But we also find in >>> Tolkien that 'fate' is not inescapable; >> >> Is it? There are several attempts by people to "escape" their fate >> (e.g. Turin); but in they end, they don't succeed, and it is >> exactly their actions that cause the "prophecies" to come true (a >> common theme in fairy-tales). After all, their fate is determined >> by the way they are, by their character, so they cannot escape >> themselves. > > Is there a difference between 'destiny' and 'fate' in English? > And in that case, would either apply better than the other in this > case? There might be a slight difference, but with fundamental concepts like this there can sometimes be a collection of similar but slightly different words, and part of the skill of an author is chosing the correct word, or the correct combination of words, to express his meaning. But an author also has to hope his readers have the same understanding of words that he does. In Tolkien's case I am not so sure that he did not sometimes go too far! [But it is still interesting.] Getting back to 'fate' and 'destiny', I would use examples like: "He fulfilled his destiny." [+] "The doom long foreseen came upon him." [*] "He was driven by fate." [&] I would say that destiny is less 'strong' than 'fate'. And that fate is something inevitable (with either foresight or hindsight) even if you try to avoid it, while destiny (sometimes foretold) is something that can be achieved by your own efforts, and has 'positive' connotations, rather than the 'negative' ones associated with fate. But others may disagree, of course! > Frodo was 'meant' by the Valar or Eru to take the Ring to Mordor I actually think that it is wrong to say any of: Frodo was fated to be the Ringbearer. Frodo was destined to be the Ringbearer. Both of these imply unavoidable foresight. Events conspiring to force Frodo to be the Ringbearer. Which is not what happened. Consider this quote directly from 'The Council of Elrond': "A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken." (Frodo about to accept the task of taking the Ring to the Fire, The Council of Elrond) [* - Now I know why I chose that example for doom!] So it is correct to say that Frodo's doom was to be the Ringbearer. The only question is when that doom or 'judgement' occurred. I would say that Eru deemed ('judged') Frodo as suitable to be the Ringbearer, and the final stage was Frodo's free choice to be the Ringbearer (with Eru's blessing). This bit about free choice does make it different from normal dooms, but there is still some deeming going on, hence it is described as a doom. > that task was appointed to him, as Elrond concludes. You can be appointed without being meant to do something. You might just be the best person available. Gandalf had a large (maybe mostly unwitting) role in finding the best people suited to carrying the Ring. > But he still had > a choice whether to take up the task or not, he held himself the > power to accept that doom or to reject it. It was, in a sense, his > own choice whether to take up the fate that was laid before him. I wouldn't call it fate. More a task or quest. As in your first sentence. [+] Gandalf says: "The Ring-bearer has fulfilled his Quest." Frodo fulfils his Quest, not his destiny. He is not said to be destined to achieve it. [&] "Long was the way that fate them bore" (Beren and Luthien) and also "he is bound up with the fate of the Ring." (Gandalf talking about Gollum). This quote on fate is particularly interesting: "In the morning you must depart for now we have chosen, and the tides of fate are flowing." (Galadriel talking to Frodo after she rejects the Ring). I don't even know where to begin comparing this to Frodo's decision to take the Ring to Mount Doom. Hmm. There are lots of references to fate: "Ever am I fated to be your burden, friend at need" (Gandalf to Gwaihir) "It was an evil fate. But he had taken it on himself in his own sitting-room in the far-off spring of another year, so remote now that it was like a chapter in a story of the world's youth, when the Trees of Silver and Gold were still in bloom." (Frodo at the Black Gate) Following on from Galadriel's comment about the tides of fate: "...a black dread fell on them, knowing that the tides of fate had turned against them and their doom was at hand." (The men and orcs at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields after Aragorn appears). And that is, I presume, the modern meaning of doom. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Shanahan" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:20:35 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 76 Message-ID: References: <20041011072638.59E.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-532.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.moat.net!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162578 Dirk Thierbach creatively typed: > Shanahan wrote: > > > Fate is inescapable, the word of the gods. But we also find in > > Tolkien that 'fate' is not inescapable; > > Is it? There are several attempts by people to "escape" their > fate (e.g. Turin); but in they end, they don't succeed, and it > is exactly their actions that cause the "prophecies" to come > true (a common > theme in fairy-tales). After all, their fate is determined by > the way they are, by their character, so they cannot escape > themselves. Yes, true. This is the Greek form of tragedy, where fate is indeed inescapable (as it is in the Latin root word for 'fate'). Interesting that the examples you cite are all from the legendarium...old tragic tales; from the point of view of the people in LotR, analogous to Greek tragedy from our point of view. LotR is more of a romance than a tragedy, whereas the older legends are purely tragedy. > It's this tension between "inescapable fate" and the attempts to > escape them nevertheless that makes the stories interesting. And 'tragic'. ;) Like watching a fly caught in a web... > > 'chance' and the courage and pity of those involved will also > > affect the outcome of a decision. (Not to mention the ol' > > 'free will'.) > > Hm. Is there any example in Tolkien where these things have > changed the "fate"? I cannot think of any at the moment. Oh boy, now you're going to stump me. It's so hard to argue these things backwards; all we have are the events as they happened, so it all *seems* fated, by hindsight. Pretty much all we can say is "if X had chosen to do this instead of this, then..." and then point to Tolkien's firm belief in free will. I could point to the Half-Elven, who are allowed to choose their own fate; but that's not quite the same as changing a preordained fate. I think the best way I can express it is to say that, in LotR (and perhaps even in The Silm.: Tuor can choose whether or not to follow Ulmo's chosen fate for him; Ulmo even has to prod him on a few times, as with the swans), no one is fated to any one road. All are given choices and allowed to pick their own paths. For example, Elrond will lay no oath of loyalty on any of the Fellowship (his argument with Gimli as the Fellowship leaves Rivendell), except Frodo: and even Frodo is sworn only to not let any other handle the Ring; he is not sworn to carry it to Orodruin, or sworn to destroy it. Let me posit this thesis: a preordained fate must come from the gods. And since the gods make no pronouncements in LotR, then we have no true 'fate' in LotR. We only have possible paths, and choices, and /estel/ that those choices will work out, if the character gives his utmost to the task. > > Shippey has some interesting things to say about this (he is > > discussing 'chance' versus 'fate'): > This is not from "The Road to Middle Earth", is it? There's also > some interesting discussion in several places in this book, > beyond the etymology. It's from "Author of the Century". I really enjoy Shippey. Ciaran S. -- All slang is metaphor, and all metaphor is poetry. - g.k. chesterton ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 22:06:48 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <4169fd1a.85611649@news.saix.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!tethys.csu.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162597 On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 04:01:35 GMT, hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote: >On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:12:30 -0400, Stan Brown >wrote: >> >>"Doom" in that quote means "fate" not "death". In modern language, >>Boromir was asking, "What did you do with him? Imprisonment, death, >>or what?" > >Doesn't it mean verdict and sentence? > >Fate is impersonals, and is what happens to you because of circumstances. Doom >is the verdict and sentence of a court, based on a specific charge, and is not >nearly as capricious and arbitrary as fate. Well, uh, when the "verdict and sentence" is from God or the gods .... (as most men have believed throughout time.) the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "Aim towards the enemy." - Instruction printed on U.S. Army rocket launcher ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:20:10 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 29 Message-ID: <416bb72b.33603307@news.saix.net> References: <4169fd1a.85611649@news.saix.net> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 155.239.185.50 X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1097605827 28846 155.239.185.50 (12 Oct 2004 18:30:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Oct 2004 18:30:27 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!news-peer1!btnet-feed3!news-peer0-test!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162619 On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 22:06:48 -0700, the softrat wrote: >On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 04:01:35 GMT, hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) >wrote: > >>On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:12:30 -0400, Stan Brown >>wrote: >>> >>>"Doom" in that quote means "fate" not "death". In modern language, >>>Boromir was asking, "What did you do with him? Imprisonment, death, >>>or what?" >> >>Doesn't it mean verdict and sentence? >> >>Fate is impersonals, and is what happens to you because of circumstances. Doom >>is the verdict and sentence of a court, based on a specific charge, and is not >>nearly as capricious and arbitrary as fate. > >Well, uh, when the "verdict and sentence" is from God or the gods .... The fates were personifications of impersonal destiny who sometimes even seem to conftrol Zeus. You don't have to DO anything to get a destiny. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: rorowe501@netscape.net (RoRowe) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: 12 Oct 2004 13:19:51 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.215.88.90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1097612392 17861 127.0.0.1 (12 Oct 2004 20:19:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:19:52 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeeds.phibee.net!nerim.net!usenet-fr.net!proxad.net!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162626 > D we see any instance where the law is ever executed? All I can > think of is examples of people trying to make fair judgment despite > the law. I think the law allows a field commander to "presume" a trespasser is a spy. However, a presumption is different from a guilty sentence. The commander can listen to evidence that may rebut the presumption. If the evidence is credible, the presumption no longer stands and the offender is a mere trespasser. This is how Eomer and Faramir handled the situation. Each had the authority to execute their captives. But they choose not to because after listening to their stories, they decided an execution was not in order. RR ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:25:23 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <4169fd1a.85611649@news.saix.net> <416bb72b.33603307@news.saix.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.space.net!news.m-online.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162633 On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:20:10 GMT, hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) wrote: > >The fates were personifications of impersonal destiny who sometimes even seem >to conftrol Zeus. You don't have to DO anything to get a destiny. That is the more developed conception. The concept of the existence of gods preceeds the concept of the existence of fate, moving from the more concrete to the more abstract. At the most primitive, 'gods' are just 'who-we-blame-for-stuff-we-don't-know-what-caused-it'. the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "When science is on your side, argue the science. When the law is on your side, argue the law. When neither science nor the law is on your side, issue a press release." ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:40:29 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 22 Message-ID: <416cbca6.100551835@news.saix.net> References: <4169fd1a.85611649@news.saix.net> <416bb72b.33603307@news.saix.net> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: tpr-ip-nas-1-p40.telkom-ipnet.co.za X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1097653844 16271 155.239.184.40 (13 Oct 2004 07:50:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Oct 2004 07:50:44 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!news-peer1!btnet-feed3!news-peer0-test!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162663 On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:25:23 -0700, the softrat wrote: >On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:20:10 GMT, hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) >wrote: >> >>The fates were personifications of impersonal destiny who sometimes even seem >>to conftrol Zeus. You don't have to DO anything to get a destiny. > >That is the more developed conception. The concept of the existence of >gods preceeds the concept of the existence of fate, moving from the >more concrete to the more abstract. At the most primitive, 'gods' are >just 'who-we-blame-for-stuff-we-don't-know-what-caused-it'. Neverthelesa, a doom is not a fate, though the same thing could be both a doom and a fate. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:22:21 GMT Organization: Topiary of Cthulhu Lines: 11 Message-ID: <416d4c3f.99081641@news.compuserve.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mid-tgn-ngo-vty132.as.wcom.net X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1097684582 19330 216.192.86.132 (13 Oct 2004 16:23:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:23:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!oleane.net!oleane!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162675 On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:42:49 +0100, TT Arvind wrote: > >And even more so a little earlier, when the guards tell Turgid of Eel's >arrival, and say that they have not slain him as as the law commands. Die, Turgid Eels! Your bloated, slimy form disgusts me! Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat) -- Death to all fanatics! ###### From: me@privacy.net (Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: 13 Oct 2004 20:38:31 GMT Organization: Dept. of CS, Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Lines: 24 Sender: Jamie Andrews Message-ID: <2t5i27F1pqugrU1@uni-berlin.de> References: X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de BUfAu1M/v6ceXjDTIYFCFw9wZdLOdsmhzxJHThx8X2yr7mj8Dt X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.4.7-20030322 ("Suggestions") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162683 In rec.arts.books.tolkien Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > I still find the case of Turgon and Eol to be a bit OTT. And Thingol as > well. But maybe that is because LotR is 'nicer' than the 'harsh' > Silmarillion? I think a number of things are going on here. Aredhel was a Noldorin lady, and killing a Noldorin lady was perhaps even less excusable than killing a regular old Noldo (or Sinda). Also, Aredhel was Turgon's sister, so he may have been influenced by that in his decision. Finally, I think it would have been inconsistent with Turgon's fatal flaw (pride) to have him keep around in Gondolin someone who had sort of gotten the better of him and would not bow to his dominion. Story-externally, I think Tolkien wanted a backstory to explain how Maeglin, arguably the most evil Elf in history, got the way he was. Seeing your parents both die violently before your eyes, getting cursed by your father, ending up trapped in a city where you know no one, and falling in love with your cousin is a pretty good setup for that. :-) --Jamie. (a Dover edition designed for years of use!) andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address. @csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.) ###### Lines: 7 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 13 Oct 2004 20:48:57 GMT References: <2t5i27F1pqugrU1@uni-berlin.de> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Message-ID: <20041013164857.21613.00002141@mb-m10.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162685 > Story-externally, I think Tolkien wanted a backstory to >explain how Maeglin, arguably the most evil Elf in history, got >the way he was. Let's not forget Galadriel, the leather dominatrix of Lorien. Russ ###### From: Troels Forchhammer Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:32:03 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Cybercity Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: <20041011072638.59E.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: port223.ds1-hh.adsl.cybercity.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.cybercity.dk 1097706723 81553 217.157.189.228 (13 Oct 2004 22:32:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cybercity.dk NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:32:03 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 X-Face: "Rt@v9]z5%&{}CPvx9[[dd!0V;NzH~|$@#;V"K4i{YbxWjfz]mC2l58XKtr\D58h*!j\LqJJ{04fO\KD2NzCYZXs~$2J(yKvlS "Christopher Kreuzer" enriched us with: > > Troels Forchhammer wrote: >> >> Is there a difference between 'destiny' and 'fate' in English? >> And in that case, would either apply better than the other in >> this case? > > There might be a slight difference, Thank you for this. >> Frodo was 'meant' by the Valar or Eru to take the Ring to Mordor > > I actually think that it is wrong to say any of: > > Frodo was fated to be the Ringbearer. > Frodo was destined to be the Ringbearer. > > Both of these imply unavoidable foresight. Events conspiring to > force Frodo to be the Ringbearer. Which is not what happened. > "It was an evil fate. But he had taken it on himself in his own > sitting-room in the far-off spring of another year, so remote now > that it was like a chapter in a story of the world's youth, when > the Trees of Silver and Gold were still in bloom." (Frodo at the > Black Gate) Doesn't this passage imply that Frodo did in some part chose that fate himself? Though the timing is different, this strikes me as giving the same impression as I intended (though I probably worded it poorly). One might say that before Frodo made his choice, his journey to Mordor was one /possible/ fate for him. It was the fate he was meant to choose, but it wouldn't 'work' unless he chose it freely. I'm not sure that that is any clearer :-( Might we talk of a potential fate? A fate Frodo is meant to fulfill, but one that he has to choose himself? -- Troels Forchhammer Valid mail is Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind. - (Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man) ###### From: "Shanahan" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:32:06 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <20041011072638.59E.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-954.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162700 Troels Forchhammer creatively typed: > "Christopher Kreuzer" enriched us > with: > > Both of these imply unavoidable foresight. Events conspiring to > > force Frodo to be the Ringbearer. Which is not what happened. > Doesn't this passage imply that Frodo did in some part chose > that fate himself? > > Though the timing is different, this strikes me as giving the > same impression as I intended (though I probably worded it > poorly). One might say that before Frodo made his choice, his > journey to Mordor was one /possible/ fate for him. It was the > fate he was meant to choose, but it wouldn't 'work' unless he > chose it freely. > I'm not sure that that is any clearer :-( > Might we talk of a potential fate? A fate Frodo is meant to > fulfill, but one that he has to choose himself? How about Frodo having a choice between the "infamous Trouser Legs of Time"? Ciaran S. -- "Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape... You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they *become*?" - t. pratchett ###### From: TT Arvind Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:47:37 +0100 Organization: Ents for the Great Teuncitarian Revolution Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <416d4c3f.99081641@news.compuserve.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 5pDGUJtVAWVCHt6rVBbpLwsHhwrtI9qEngoodNJC9lxmaMH0SO X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-News-Feed: Purina(TM) Dried Posts X-Ray-Glasses: Activated X-Files: Is a stupid waste of time Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162718 Wes ðu Jim Deutch hal! > On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:42:49 +0100, TT Arvind > wrote: > > > >And even more so a little earlier, when the guards tell Turgid of Eel's > >arrival, and say that they have not slain him as as the law commands. > > Die, Turgid Eels! Your bloated, slimy form disgusts me! Aaugh! Death to spellcheckers! -- Dying is a very dull, dreary affair. And my advice to you is to have nothing whatever to do with it. - W. Somerset Maugham ###### From: Menelvagor@mailandnews.com (Count Menelvagor) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: 14 Oct 2004 23:45:04 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6bfb27a8.0410142245.4fabd8e4@posting.google.com> References: <416d4c3f.99081641@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.63.221.71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1097822705 10001 127.0.0.1 (15 Oct 2004 06:45:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 06:45:05 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162768 TT Arvind wrote in message news:... > Wes ðu Jim Deutch hal! > > On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:42:49 +0100, TT Arvind > > wrote: > > > > > >And even more so a little earlier, when the guards tell Turgid of Eel's > > >arrival, and say that they have not slain him as as the law commands. > > > > Die, Turgid Eels! Your bloated, slimy form disgusts me! > > Aaugh! Death to spellcheckers! are we supposed to believe a spellchecker did that? yeah right. the eel's tail has grown long indeed. ###### From: Menelvagor@mailandnews.com (Count Menelvagor) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: 14 Oct 2004 23:48:18 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 10 Message-ID: <6bfb27a8.0410142248.32b15b04@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.63.221.71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1097822899 10130 127.0.0.1 (15 Oct 2004 06:48:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 06:48:19 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162769 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:... > I still find the case of Turgon and Eol to be a bit OTT. And Thingol as > well. But maybe that is because LotR is 'nicer' than the 'harsh' > Silmarillion? the ethos of LOTR does seem more humane than Sil. perhaps partly a matter of Sil's archaism. the elves in Sil are gits. ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: 15 Oct 2004 16:16:46 GMT Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <6bfb27a8.0410142248.32b15b04@posting.google.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de nyQb3+e8RvYNsORsvUxfIwA6use0JRyvOX/Agv+u+Nq/wcl01h User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162780 Menelvagor@mailandnews.com (Count Menelvagor) wrote in news:6bfb27a8.0410142248.32b15b04@posting.google.com: > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message > news:... > >> I still find the case of Turgon and Eol to be a bit OTT. And >> Thingol as well. But maybe that is because LotR is 'nicer' than >> the 'harsh' Silmarillion? > > the ethos of LOTR does seem more humane than Sil. perhaps partly > a > matter of Sil's archaism. > > the elves in Sil are gits. The humanism of the New Testament versus the blood 'n' guts of the Old. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: 15 Oct 2004 16:19:27 GMT Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de PkyWcjOAgXVIV4uzE/xhzgLR17UxaOZC933sOBcwL8j9cJaGuY User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162781 TT Arvind wrote in news:MPG.1bd3a4bb32066795989cca@news.individual.net: > Wes ðu Stan Brown hal! >> The Bree-landers exiled troublemakers not so much to punish them >> a to keep their community safe. The hobbits called for Saruman to >> die so that they would be safe from him. Faramir is commanded to >> slay wanderers in Ithilien not because they are trespassing but >> because they are presumptively spies. And so forth. > > I agree. A similar example from Sil. is the law of Turgon that > all strangers in Gondolin were to be slain. I do wonder what > JRRT's opinion on such rules for presumptively killing someone to > keep a community safe was, though. None too positive, judging by how the treatment of Beleg by the outlaws is portrayed. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <416d4c3f.99081641@news.compuserve.com> <6bfb27a8.0410142245.4fabd8e4@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Lines: 19 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:19:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.161.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1097882395 82.43.161.162 (Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:19:55 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:19:55 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.nextoneserver.com!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162786 Count Menelvagor wrote: > TT Arvind wrote >> Wes ðu Jim Deutch hal! >>> TT Arvind ttarvind@hotmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> And even more so a little earlier, when the guards tell Turgid of >>>> Eel's arrival, and say that they have not slain him as as the law >>>> commands. >>> >>> Die, Turgid Eels! Your bloated, slimy form disgusts me! >> >> Aaugh! Death to spellcheckers! > > are we supposed to believe a spellchecker did that? yeah right. > > the eel's tail has grown long indeed. So it is Eol's spirit hanging around Caradhras? :-) ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <6bfb27a8.0410142248.32b15b04@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Lines: 29 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:25:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.161.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1097882758 82.43.161.162 (Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:25:58 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:25:58 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162787 Count Menelvagor wrote: > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message > news:... > >> I still find the case of Turgon and Eol to be a bit OTT. And Thingol >> as well. But maybe that is because LotR is 'nicer' than the 'harsh' >> Silmarillion? > > the ethos of LOTR does seem more humane than Sil. perhaps partly a > matter of Sil's archaism. I wonder whether it was an age thing? Tolkien had written out his doom-laden mythology earlier on in his life, and then, with the experience of age, was able to write a moving and humane story in LotR. I may be over-generalising though. > the elves in Sil are gits. Except Finrod Felagund. But yes, the story in Silm is a lot more about Elves than the story in LotR. So in Silm we see the Elves, warts and all. In LotR they are a fading people, and they just sing and act wise all the time, and then go sailing West... Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Shanahan" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 00:57:19 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <6bfb27a8.0410142248.32b15b04@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-825.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162820 Yuk Tang creatively typed: > Menelvagor@mailandnews.com (Count Menelvagor) wrote in > > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote > > > > > I still find the case of Turgon and Eol to be a bit OTT. And > > > Thingol as well. But maybe that is because LotR is 'nicer' > > > than the 'harsh' Silmarillion? > > > > the ethos of LOTR does seem more humane than Sil. perhaps > > partly a matter of Sil's archaism. > > the elves in Sil are gits. > > The humanism of the New Testament versus the blood 'n' guts of > the Old. Greek tragedy versus medieval morality plays. Yup. Ciaran S. -- "Much human ingenuity has gone into finding the ultimate Before. The current state of knowledge can be summarized thus: In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded. - t. pratchett ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: 18 Oct 2004 10:14:04 GMT Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <20041011072638.59E.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de tWJBPpvo/c/MHDjSiuNMmgwldjDUNdjuU0MrR/16fGiqyGdP1s User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162906 Troels Forchhammer wrote in news:Xns957FCF6B7C080T.Forch@212.242.40.196: > In message > Dirk > Thierbach enriched us with: > > The case of Turin is a bit more complex. By trying to work against > his fate, he fulfilled it, but part of this was also due to > Morgoth's malice (as I read it), that followed him. That his fate > always caught up with him was not always by his own errors alone. >> >> Hm. Is there any example in Tolkien where these things have >> changed the "fate"? I cannot think of any at the moment. > > I can't either, but I think that part of the message is that the > characters still choose their actions themselves -- they are not > bereft of their free will to act, but somehow they always end up > doing as they were fated. Some of this might be the Catholic, or > Christian, speaking: whether you accept God or reject Him, you > will nevertheless end up doing his will. Then what is the difference between the Elder and the Younger Children? The Silm emphasises that the Atani are able to shape fate in a way that the Quendi cannot, yet Turin is an object example of how fate encloses even one of the Atani. Is it a mistranslation, and 'Fate' only refers to Arda as such, and Men are only able to change 'Fate' by escaping Arda altogether? -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: AC Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: 18 Oct 2004 14:07:36 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <20041011072638.59E.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de IEmukqEIZ4ZXda1Z0Aga7ASANrVG969RoK8rFcNlRGQsiHbgs/ User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162912 On 18 Oct 2004 10:14:04 GMT, Yuk Tang wrote: > > Then what is the difference between the Elder and the Younger > Children? The Silm emphasises that the Atani are able to shape fate > in a way that the Quendi cannot, yet Turin is an object example of > how fate encloses even one of the Atani. Is it a mistranslation, and > 'Fate' only refers to Arda as such, and Men are only able to change > 'Fate' by escaping Arda altogether? I think Turin is a rather bad example. Morgoth seems to have been screwing pretty majorily with him. Do recall that when Turin was among the woodsmen of Brethel, and his whereabouts were unknown, things went a good deal better for him. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com "My illness is due to my doctor's insistence that I drink milk, a whitish fluid they force down helpless babies." - WC Fields ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: 18 Oct 2004 14:56:37 GMT Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <20041011072638.59E.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de xC6XuhF1rg+98/Ae2r0GcApBlHsKFmz62Xf+SshPdoB9bHf8yf User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162913 AC wrote in news:slrncn7jh8.7u9.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net: > On 18 Oct 2004 10:14:04 GMT, > Yuk Tang wrote: >> >> Then what is the difference between the Elder and the Younger >> Children? The Silm emphasises that the Atani are able to shape >> fate in a way that the Quendi cannot, yet Turin is an object >> example of how fate encloses even one of the Atani. Is it a >> mistranslation, and 'Fate' only refers to Arda as such, and Men >> are only able to change 'Fate' by escaping Arda altogether? > > I think Turin is a rather bad example. Morgoth seems to have been > screwing pretty majorily with him. Do recall that when Turin was > among the woodsmen of Brethel, and his whereabouts were unknown, > things went a good deal better for him. So Men are able to make their own Fate, as long as a Vala isn't devoting his attention to screwing an individual. Fair enough, I suppose. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### Lines: 30 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 18 Oct 2004 16:25:26 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Message-ID: <20041018122526.22988.00002184@mb-m10.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162918 YMT wrote: >> The case of Turin is a bit more complex. By trying to work against >> his fate, he fulfilled it, but part of this was also due to >> Morgoth's malice (as I read it), that followed him. That his fate >> always caught up with him was not always by his own errors alone. >>> >>> Hm. Is there any example in Tolkien where these things have >>> changed the "fate"? I cannot think of any at the moment. >> >> I can't either, but I think that part of the message is that the >> characters still choose their actions themselves -- they are not >> bereft of their free will to act, but somehow they always end up >> doing as they were fated. Some of this might be the Catholic, or >> Christian, speaking: whether you accept God or reject Him, you >> will nevertheless end up doing his will. > >Then what is the difference between the Elder and the Younger >Children? The Silm emphasises that the Atani are able to shape fate >in a way that the Quendi cannot, yet Turin is an object example of >how fate encloses even one of the Atani. Is it a mistranslation, and >'Fate' only refers to Arda as such, and Men are only able to change >'Fate' by escaping Arda altogether? I see it as two things. First, as you say, Men are able to escape Arda and on their death their spirits leave. Secondly, when the time of Man comes (i.e. the 4th Age) they are no longer bound by the music of the Ainur and make their own fate. Russ ###### From: AC Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: 18 Oct 2004 16:50:55 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <20041011072638.59E.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de /p19ftaw6UEuNCu2nfNYhASXPgNILw1yhYOWw862Ua5vhj3JaO User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162920 On 18 Oct 2004 14:56:37 GMT, Yuk Tang wrote: > AC wrote in > news:slrncn7jh8.7u9.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net: >> On 18 Oct 2004 10:14:04 GMT, >> Yuk Tang wrote: >>> >>> Then what is the difference between the Elder and the Younger >>> Children? The Silm emphasises that the Atani are able to shape >>> fate in a way that the Quendi cannot, yet Turin is an object >>> example of how fate encloses even one of the Atani. Is it a >>> mistranslation, and 'Fate' only refers to Arda as such, and Men >>> are only able to change 'Fate' by escaping Arda altogether? >> >> I think Turin is a rather bad example. Morgoth seems to have been >> screwing pretty majorily with him. Do recall that when Turin was >> among the woodsmen of Brethel, and his whereabouts were unknown, >> things went a good deal better for him. > > So Men are able to make their own Fate, as long as a Vala isn't > devoting his attention to screwing an individual. Fair enough, I > suppose. Oh I don't think it's as bad as that. Morgoth had his effect, but it was Turin who still did idiotic things like convince Nargothrond to fight openly, who slew the Easterling (can't remember the fellow's name) in Dor-lomin. He was a miserable bastard. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com "My illness is due to my doctor's insistence that I drink milk, a whitish fluid they force down helpless babies." - WC Fields ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: 18 Oct 2004 18:03:09 GMT Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <20041011072638.59E.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de /oZe+bwg7jC22G8RzqEahgAmZWzRhXEbrSMyosu6DPAYoI2fEC User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162922 AC wrote in news:slrncn7t3f.7u9.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net: > On 18 Oct 2004 14:56:37 GMT, > Yuk Tang wrote: >> AC wrote in >> news:slrncn7jh8.7u9.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net: >>> On 18 Oct 2004 10:14:04 GMT, >>> Yuk Tang wrote: >>>> >>>> Then what is the difference between the Elder and the Younger >>>> Children? The Silm emphasises that the Atani are able to shape >>>> fate in a way that the Quendi cannot, yet Turin is an object >>>> example of how fate encloses even one of the Atani. Is it a >>>> mistranslation, and 'Fate' only refers to Arda as such, and Men >>>> are only able to change 'Fate' by escaping Arda altogether? >>> >>> I think Turin is a rather bad example. Morgoth seems to have >>> been screwing pretty majorily with him. Do recall that when >>> Turin was among the woodsmen of Brethel, and his whereabouts >>> were unknown, things went a good deal better for him. >> >> So Men are able to make their own Fate, as long as a Vala isn't >> devoting his attention to screwing an individual. Fair enough, I >> suppose. > > Oh I don't think it's as bad as that. Morgoth had his effect, but > it was Turin who still did idiotic things like convince > Nargothrond to fight openly, who slew the Easterling (can't > remember the fellow's name) in Dor-lomin. He was a miserable > bastard. Which brings me back to my theory that Melkor understood the nature of the Eruhini, and more specifically the Atani, more than the other Valar. In addition to his innate power, Melkor was able to manipulate the Children into carrying out his plans, even as they opposed him. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <416d4c3f.99081641@news.compuserve.com> <6bfb27a8.0410142245.4fabd8e4@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: <1fXcd.7014$1p.5968@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.101.75.68 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1098137661 213.101.75.68 (Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:14:21 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:14:21 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d213-101-75-68.swipnet.se Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:16:54 +0200 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162931 "Count Menelvagor" skrev i meddelandet news:6bfb27a8.0410142245.4fabd8e4@posting.google.com... [snip] > > > Die, Turgid Eels! Your bloated, slimy form disgusts me! I must object to this trasking of eels, those delicious fish. Smoked eel - yum! Öjevind ###### From: "Shanahan" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:26:25 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <20041011072638.59E.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-449.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162946 AC creatively typed: > On 18 Oct 2004 10:14:04 GMT, > Yuk Tang wrote: > > > > Then what is the difference between the Elder and the Younger > > Children? The Silm emphasises that the Atani are able to > > shape fate in a way that the Quendi cannot, yet Turin is an > > object example of how fate encloses even one of the Atani. Is > > it a mistranslation, and 'Fate' only refers to Arda as such, > > and Men are only able to change 'Fate' by escaping Arda > > altogether? > > I think Turin is a rather bad example. Morgoth seems to have > been screwing pretty majorily with him. Do recall that when > Turin was among the woodsmen of Brethel, and his whereabouts > were unknown, things went a good deal better for him. I agree with what you say in principle. But recall that during this period among the woodsmen of Brethil, Turin was falling in love with, marrying, and impregnating, his sister. Ciaran S. -- If a ragnarök would burn all the slums and gas-works, and shabby garages, and long arc-lit suburbs, it cd. for me burn all the works of art - and I'd go back to trees. - JRRT ###### Lines: 26 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 19 Oct 2004 13:45:58 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Message-ID: <20041019094558.29613.00000991@mb-m05.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!195.185.185.44.MISMATCH!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162955 > >AC creatively typed: >> On 18 Oct 2004 10:14:04 GMT, >> Yuk Tang wrote: >> > >> > Then what is the difference between the Elder and the Younger >> > Children? The Silm emphasises that the Atani are able to >> > shape fate in a way that the Quendi cannot, yet Turin is an >> > object example of how fate encloses even one of the Atani. Is >> > it a mistranslation, and 'Fate' only refers to Arda as such, >> > and Men are only able to change 'Fate' by escaping Arda >> > altogether? >> >> I think Turin is a rather bad example. Morgoth seems to have >> been screwing pretty majorily with him. Do recall that when >> Turin was among the woodsmen of Brethel, and his whereabouts >> were unknown, things went a good deal better for him. > >I agree with what you say in principle. But recall that during >this period among the woodsmen of Brethil, Turin was falling in >love with, marrying, and impregnating, his sister. He didn't know she was his sister. Maeglin on the other hand knew Idril was his cousin. Russ ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20041011072638.59E.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Lines: 31 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:31:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.160.122 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1099254676 82.43.160.122 (Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:31:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:31:16 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163663 Troels Forchhammer wrote: > "Christopher Kreuzer" quoted: >> "It was an evil fate. But he had taken it on himself in his own >> sitting-room in the far-off spring of another year, so remote now >> that it was like a chapter in a story of the world's youth, when >> the Trees of Silver and Gold were still in bloom." (Frodo at the >> Black Gate) > > Doesn't this passage imply that Frodo did in some part chose that fate > himself? > Might we talk of a potential fate? A fate Frodo is meant to fulfill, > but one that he has to choose himself? I've been saving up these 'fate' threads, but my mind is drawing a blank on them. Mainly because I can't get this quote out of my head: "...in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End." (Ulmo to Tuor, Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin, Unfinished Tales) Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20041011072638.59E.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> Subject: Re: Justice in Middle-earth (was Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)) Lines: 36 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:40:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.160.122 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1099255255 82.43.160.122 (Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:40:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:40:55 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:163664 Yuk Tang wrote: > Then what is the difference between the Elder and the Younger > Children? The Silm emphasises that the Atani are able to shape fate > in a way that the Quendi cannot, yet Turin is an object example of > how fate encloses even one of the Atani. Is it a mistranslation, and > 'Fate' only refers to Arda as such, and Men are only able to change > 'Fate' by escaping Arda altogether? I've been saving up these 'fate' threads, but my mind is drawing a blank on them. Mainly because I can't get this quote out of my head: "...in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End." (Ulmo to Tuor, Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin, Unfinished Tales) I think this quote is particularly apt for what happened to Turin. As for the difference between the Elder and Younger Children, I've always hated the idea that the Ainur and Elves were limited by the Music, and I prefer the idea that it was alien to their being to do anything other than elaborate upon the themes of the Music (as seen around them), whereas Men were capable of originating _new_ themes. In this sense, the Music being "as fate to all things else" would imply that Elves were created to play the Music but that Men were created to continue the Music. Maybe both Elves and Men could do either, but each was better and more attuned to one than the other. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard