From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Lines: 94 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 17:09:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.102.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1097341749 82.44.102.80 (Sat, 09 Oct 2004 18:09:09 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 18:09:09 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in.ntli.net!newsrout1-win.ntli.net!ntli.net!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162441 Samwise son of Hamfast, otherwise known as Sam Gamgee, is well-known (within the pages of LotR) for reciting old sayings learnt from his father (Hamfast Gamgee or simply the Gaffer). I first began to take note of these in a recent Chapter of the Week discussion, and made a vague threat to try and list some of them. Well, here they are: "Elves and Dragons. Cabbages and potatoes are better for me and you. Don 't go getting mixed up in the business of your betters, or you'll land in trouble too big for you..." (Hamfast telling others what he told Sam, A Long-Expected Party) "[Sam] breathed with relief when he was safely across. 'Live and learn! as my gaffer used to say. Though he was thinking of gardening, not of roosting like a bird, nor of trying to walk like a spider. Not even my uncle Andy ever did a trick like that!'" (Sam crossing the rope bridge, Lothlorien) "It's the job that's never started as takes longest to finish, as my old gaffer used to say." (Sam on leaving Lorien, The Mirror of Galadriel) "'Rope!' cried Sam, talking wildly to himself in his excitement and relief. 'Well, if I don't deserve to be hung on the end of one as a warning to numbskulls! You're nowt but a ninnyhammer, Sam Gamgee: that's what the Gaffer said to me often enough, it being a word of his. Rope!'" (Sam remembering he has a rope, The Taming of Smeagol) "'Ninnyhammers!' he said. 'Noodles! My beautiful rope! There it is tied to a stump, and we're at the bottom.'" (Sam about to be surprised by a rope, The Taming of Smeagol) "I do know something about rope and about knots. It's in the family, as you might say. Why, my grand-dad, and my uncle Andy after him, him that was the Gaffer's eldest brother, he had a rope-walk over by Tighfield many a year. And I put as fast a hitch over the stump as any one could have done, in the Shire or out of it." (Sam trying to explain why the rope shouldn't have come loose, The Taming of Smeagol) "Various reproachful names for himself came to Sam's mind, drawn from the Gaffer's large paternal word-hoard..." (Sam realising that he fell asleep and left him and Frodo unguarded against Gollum, The Passage of the Marshes) "Don't think of any of your Gaffer's hard names..." (Frodo trying to reassure Sam about his falling asleep and not keeping watch, The Passage of the Marshes) "My word, but the Gaffer would have a thing or two to say, if he saw me now! Often said I'd come to a bad end, if I didn't watch my step, he did. But now I don't suppose I'll ever see the old fellow again. He'll miss his chance of I told'ee so, Sam: more's the pity. He could go on telling me as long as he'd got breath, if only I could see his old face again." (Sam upon seeing the Black Gate, The Black Gate is Closed) "'Po-ta-toes,' said Sam. 'The Gaffer's delight, and rare good ballast for an empty belly.'" (Sam speaking to Gollum, Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbits) "'Save me! ' said Sam turning white, and then flushing scarlet. 'There I go again! When ever you open your big mouth you put your foot in it the Gaffer used to say to me, and right enough.'" (Sam after being indiscreet in front of Faramir, The Window on the West) "You've spoken very handsome all along, put me off my guard, talking of Elves and all. But handsome is as handsome does we say. Now's a chance to show your quality." (Sam lecturing Faramir, The Window on the West) "...where there's life there's hope, as my Gaffer used to say; and need of vittles, as he mostways used to add." (Sam speaking to Frodo to raise his hopes and get him to eat, Journey to the Crossroads) "Well, I was born lucky, whatever my gaffer may say. There's another wish come true!" (Sam speaking about Bill [the Pony], Homeward Bound) "It's an ill wind as blows nobody no good, as I always say. And All's well as ends Better!" (Hamfast Gamgee's verdict on being restored to Bagshot Row after the Scouring of the Shire, The Grey Havens) "Make it short, and then you won't have to cut it short before you can use it." (Hamfast Gamgee's advice to Sam on naming babies, The Grey Havens) I think all these sayings give a nice insight into the character of Hamfast Gamgee, and also into his son, Samwise Gamgee. The one I like best is the one from when they are in front of the Black Gate. That one is quite sombre, but mostly these moments of the story are lighter and sometimes humorous. The best piece of advice, IMO, is the one about a job that's never started! Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 20:32:25 +0200 Organization: Encephalo Productions Lines: 17 Message-ID: <2sqp5uF165h13U1@uni-berlin.de> References: Reply-To: "Taemon" X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 67N0Y8Lb1Fc707FgdSh9RAbUycXLlHStn5StACic+24BYNXaBY X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162443 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > "'Rope!' cried Sam, talking wildly to himself in his > excitement and relief. 'Well, if I don't deserve to be > hung on the end of one as a warning to numbskulls! You're > nowt but a ninnyhammer, Sam Gamgee: that's what the > Gaffer said to me often enough, it being a word of his. > Rope!'" (Sam remembering he has a rope, The Taming of > Smeagol) I'm currently reading a book in which the word "ninehammer" pops up now and then ("Quicksilver, Neal Stephenson). Anyone know more about it? T. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 17:11:12 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 38 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!sjc1.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162448 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Samwise son of Hamfast, otherwise known as Sam Gamgee, is well-known >(within the pages of LotR) for reciting old sayings learnt from his >father (Hamfast Gamgee or simply the Gaffer). >"It's the job that's never started as takes longest to finish, as my old >gaffer used to say." (Sam on leaving Lorien, The Mirror of Galadriel) Was this one composed for LotR It has the sound of an old saying, though it's completely applicable today. When I read it in LotR, I assumed Tolkien was quoting, perhaps in modified form (as he did with Frodo's song at the Prancing Pony). But now I wonder: did Tolkien invent this? >"You've spoken very handsome all along, put me off my guard, talking of >Elves and all. But handsome is as handsome does we say. Now's a chance >to show your quality." (Sam lecturing Faramir, The Window on the West) I'm certain "handsome is as handsome does" did not originate with Tolkien. >"...where there's life there's hope, as my Gaffer used to say; and need >of vittles, as he mostways used to add." (Sam speaking to Frodo to raise >his hopes and get him to eat, Journey to the Crossroads) "Where there's life there's hope" is not Tolkien's, but I very much like how he has adapted it with the earthy addition of the Gaffer. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 17:17:23 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <2sqp5uF165h13U1@uni-berlin.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 32 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162449 "Taemon" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > >> "'Rope!' cried Sam, talking wildly to himself in his >> excitement and relief. 'Well, if I don't deserve to be >> hung on the end of one as a warning to numbskulls! You're >> nowt but a ninnyhammer, Sam Gamgee: that's what the >> Gaffer said to me often enough, it being a word of his. >> Rope!'" (Sam remembering he has a rope, The Taming of >> Smeagol) > >I'm currently reading a book in which the word "ninehammer" pops >up now and then ("Quicksilver, Neal Stephenson). Anyone know more >about it? Onelook is a terrific dictionary resource. Try http://www.onelook.com/?ls=a&w=ninehammer It asks "did you mean ninnyhammer?" and finds that word in six dictionaries. Unfortunately, none of the six happens to give a derivation, though two do say "-Addison". -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Lines: 19 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 21:56:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.102.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1097358990 82.44.102.80 (Sat, 09 Oct 2004 22:56:30 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 22:56:30 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162450 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > "'Ninnyhammers!' he said. 'Noodles! My beautiful rope! There it is > tied to a stump, and we're at the bottom.'" (Sam about to be > surprised by a rope, The Taming of Smeagol) Ninnyhammers is being discussed in another thread (it means fool), but what on Earth does "Noodles!" mean? I've ferreted around various dictionaries and learnt that as well as being a pasta-like food, noodle can also refer to the human head. It might be a short leap from here to infer a meaning that implies "bad thinking" or "foolish thinking". In other words, Sam is once again berating himself for being a fool. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: Troels Forchhammer Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 23:13:37 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Cybercity Lines: 83 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: port223.ds1-hh.adsl.cybercity.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.cybercity.dk 1097363617 56044 217.157.189.228 (9 Oct 2004 23:13:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cybercity.dk NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 23:13:37 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 X-Face: "Rt@v9]z5%&{}CPvx9[[dd!0V;NzH~|$@#;V"K4i{YbxWjfz]mC2l58XKtr\D58h*!j\LqJJ{04fO\KD2NzCYZXs~$2J(yKvlS "Christopher Kreuzer" enriched us with: > > Samwise son of Hamfast, otherwise known as Sam Gamgee, is > well-known (within the pages of LotR) for reciting old sayings > learnt from his father (Hamfast Gamgee or simply the Gaffer). I > first began to take note of these in a recent Chapter of the Week > discussion, and made a vague threat to try and list some of them. > Well, here they are: Thanks, great list! (By the way: on the subject of lists: I've created a nice little script that has been collecting day-by-day posting statistics for AFT and RABT from Google from November 23, 1992 and April 1, 1993 respectively -- I will run it a third time collecting the cross-posting statistics. I hope this will be useful for the history project.) You missed one of my personal favourites (in the humorous department) from the Scouring of the Shire: " 'Well, you can't say fairer than that,' said the gaffer. 'Mr. Frodo Baggins is a real gentlehobbit, I always have said, whatever you may think of some others of the name, begging your pardon. And I hope my Sam's behaved hisself and given satisfaction?' 'Perfect satisfaction, Mr. Gamgee,' said Frodo. 'Indeed, if you will believe it, he's now one of the most famous people in all the lands, and they are making songs about his deeds from here to the Sea and beyond the Great River.' Sam blushed, but he looked gratefully at Frodo, for Rosie's eyes were shining and she was smiling at him. 'It takes a lot o' believing,' said the gaffer, 'though I can see he's been mixing in strange company. What's come of his weskit? I don't hold with wearing ironmongery, whether it wears well or no.'" I left in Frodo's comment for context. I particularly like the last two sentences -- for some reason his 'whether it wears well or no' always has me LOL when I read it ;-) > I think all these sayings give a nice insight into the character > of Hamfast Gamgee, Indeed. Though they are becoming more and more rare (at least in Denmark) one can still meet an old gaffer in places, and Tolkien has caught them right on. > and also into his son, Samwise Gamgee. The true Hobbit, the most Hobbit-like of the four Hobbits in the fellowship (and the only from a lower social class). It is, I think, noteworthy that he does end up becoming the mayor several times. > The one I like best is the one from when they are in front of > the Black Gate. That one is quite sombre, Not so much the 'gafferism', for me that is, but the filial regret at the prospect of not proving his gaffer wrong on this point (I like to think that the gaffer did end up being very proud of his son). > but mostly these moments of the story are lighter and sometimes > humorous. I think that most, if not all, of the gaffer's own sayings serve both a humorous role as well as helping to define something essentially Hobbitish -- I recall Bilbo and Frodo's relative Dora and her long correspondance of advice as well as Bilbo's own lapse into this Hobbit habit when giving Pippin and Merry "a fair sample of this" and afterwards adding "in Shire-fashion: 'Don't let your heads get too big for your hats! But if you don't finish growing up soon, you are going to find hats and clothes expensive.'" -- Troels Forchhammer Valid mail is Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men. - Lord Acton, in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Lines: 57 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <%n%9d.5736$xb.4835@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 00:29:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.102.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1097368187 82.44.102.80 (Sun, 10 Oct 2004 01:29:47 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 01:29:47 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162459 Troels Forchhammer wrote: > In message > "Christopher Kreuzer" enriched us with: >> >> Samwise son of Hamfast, otherwise known as Sam Gamgee, is >> well-known (within the pages of LotR) for reciting old sayings >> learnt from his father (Hamfast Gamgee or simply the Gaffer). > Thanks, great list! That is as far as I wanted to go. I did hear someone say that there are "at least 70" sayings/proverbs in LotR. The Gafferisms are the nicest though! > (By the way: on the subject of lists: I've created a nice little > script that has been collecting day-by-day posting statistics for AFT > and RABT from Google from November 23, 1992 and April 1, 1993 > respectively -- I will run it a third time collecting the > cross-posting statistics. I hope this will be useful for the history > project.) Definitely! Could you e-mail me off-list about that? I still have that spreadsheet I'd like to discuss with you (or anyone) if you/they have time. > 'It takes a lot o' believing,' said the gaffer, 'though I > can see he's been mixing in strange company. What's come of > his weskit? I don't hold with wearing ironmongery, whether > it wears well or no.'" That is very funny! :-) I had to look up 'weskit'. I should have guessed it was a dialect word for waistcoat! Tolkien was famous for wearing brightly-coloured waistcoats like his hobbits!! >> I think all these sayings give a nice insight into the character >> of Hamfast Gamgee, > > Indeed. Though they are becoming more and more rare (at least in > Denmark) one can still meet an old gaffer in places, and Tolkien has > caught them right on. Hopefully the spirit of gaffers will live on, even if they words they use might change... Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard "This tale grew in the telling, until it became a history of the Great War of the Ring..." - J.R.R. Tolkien (Foreward to LotR) ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:10:07 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162461 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >> "'Ninnyhammers!' he said. 'Noodles! My beautiful rope! There it is >> tied to a stump, and we're at the bottom.'" (Sam about to be >> surprised by a rope, The Taming of Smeagol) > >Ninnyhammers is being discussed in another thread (it means fool), but >what on Earth does "Noodles!" mean? I've ferreted around various >dictionaries and learnt that as well as being a pasta-like food, noodle >can also refer to the human head. It might be a short leap from here to >infer a meaning that implies "bad thinking" or "foolish thinking". In >other words, Sam is once again berating himself for being a fool. Yup! Note the alliteration: ninnyhammers! noodles! -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:13:09 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <%n%9d.5736$xb.4835@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162462 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I had to look up 'weskit'. I should have guessed it was a dialect word >for waistcoat! Tolkien was famous for wearing brightly-coloured >waistcoats like his hobbits!! Not so much a "dialect word" as phonetic transliteration of the usual pronunciation. I believe Tolkien himself pronounced it "weskit". For some reason, it is a convention to show rustic speech by writing words exactly the way _everyone_ pronounces them rather than using normal spelling. Compare "sez" for "says". Everybody pronounces the word "sez", but somehow if you write it "sez" it indicates that a rustic is speaking. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: "Shanahan" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 00:42:54 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-398.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162467 Christopher Kreuzer creatively typed: > Samwise son of Hamfast, otherwise known as Sam Gamgee, is > well-known (within the pages of LotR) for reciting old sayings > learnt from his father (Hamfast Gamgee or simply the Gaffer). I Don't forget my favorite: Gaffer to the regulars in the Ivy Bush: "Old Mr. Bilbo has learnt him his letters (meaning no harm mind you, and I hope no harm comes of it)..." Ciaran S. -- "Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape... You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they *become*?" - t. pratchett ###### From: Yuk Tang Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: 10 Oct 2004 12:03:13 GMT Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de nhrwaA7S1NWl5r/5jS20QwCpZooTdkhnLdBNY0pS9F67OegBAn User-Agent: Xnews/L5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162470 Troels Forchhammer wrote in news:Xns957ECAD65493T.Forch@212.242.40.196: > In message > "Christopher Kreuzer" enriched us > with: > >> and also into his son, Samwise Gamgee. > > The true Hobbit, the most Hobbit-like of the four Hobbits in the > fellowship (and the only from a lower social class). He's the only one not to come from the notorious Took and Brandybuck clans, who are known for being queer i' t'head. -- Cheers, ymt. ###### From: "John Jones" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:45:25 +0100 Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <%n%9d.5736$xb.4835@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.137.64.73 X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 1097417751 8075 62.137.64.73 (10 Oct 2004 14:15:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2004 14:15:51 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162474 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1bd256ab90c9a05a98cac8@news.odyssey.net... > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >I had to look up 'weskit'. I should have guessed it was a dialect word > >for waistcoat! Tolkien was famous for wearing brightly-coloured > >waistcoats like his hobbits!! > > Not so much a "dialect word" as phonetic transliteration of the > usual pronunciation. I believe Tolkien himself pronounced it > "weskit". > It's Midlands speech. > For some reason, it is a convention to show rustic speech by writing > words exactly the way _everyone_ pronounces them rather than using > normal spelling. Compare "sez" for "says". Everybody pronounces the > word "sez", but somehow if you write it "sez" it indicates that a > rustic is speaking. > Not really; 'sez' is dialect or an accent. English Received Pronunciation speakers use 'says'. ###### From: "John Jones" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:48:42 +0100 Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.137.64.73 X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 1097417753 8075 62.137.64.73 (10 Oct 2004 14:15:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2004 14:15:53 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.nextoneserver.com!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162475 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1bd21dff72cf860498cabf@news.odyssey.net... > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Samwise son of Hamfast, otherwise known as Sam Gamgee, is well-known > >(within the pages of LotR) for reciting old sayings learnt from his > >father (Hamfast Gamgee or simply the Gaffer). > > >"It's the job that's never started as takes longest to finish, as my old > >gaffer used to say." (Sam on leaving Lorien, The Mirror of Galadriel) > > Was this one composed for LotR It has the sound of an old saying, > though it's completely applicable today. When I read it in LotR, I > assumed Tolkien was quoting, perhaps in modified form (as he did > with Frodo's song at the Prancing Pony). But now I wonder: did > Tolkien invent this? > 'It is not the starting of a thing that delivereth true glory, but the continuing until the end' (IIRC); Drake. The Gaffer's aphorism is a proverb, I think. > >"You've spoken very handsome all along, put me off my guard, talking of > >Elves and all. But handsome is as handsome does we say. Now's a chance > >to show your quality." (Sam lecturing Faramir, The Window on the West) > > I'm certain "handsome is as handsome does" did not originate with > Tolkien. > Isn't it in Shakespeare? It's certainly another proverbial saying. ###### From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:38:06 +0200 Organization: Encephalo Productions Lines: 61 Message-ID: <2st6rmF1n54jeU1@uni-berlin.de> References: <2sqp5uF165h13U1@uni-berlin.de> Reply-To: "Taemon" X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 2DORiF17OLNi7U1HcrMmHw3K3I5d3GcIlofRSumD+jNuk3rZ9A X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news1.uni-leipzig.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162478 Stan Brown wrote: > "Taemon" wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > I'm currently reading a book in which the word > > "ninehammer" pops up now and then ("Quicksilver, Neal > > Stephenson). Anyone know more about it? I found this quote, by the way: Quicksilver - The first book of Neil Stephenson's Baroque Cycle, which threatens to be 3000 pages when it's all done. This book is nearly 1000 on its own, but reads along at a brisk pace and keeps you wanting more. Connected more than a little to the spectacular Cryptonomicon, this book is set (mostly) in the mid to late 1600s and deals with the scientific, social, and political revolutions of that era, as observed by the Waterhouses and Shaftoes of this earlier era. Newton and Liebniz create calculus while we watch (and, as he managed to make modular arithmatic and cryptanalysis approachable in Cryptonomicon, Stephenson manages to summarize the essential nature and usefulness of this discovery so anyone can follow it), the crowns of Europe strugle for dominance while we watch, and more than a few surprises are slipped in. There are a few anacronisms (some quite humorous, others annoying), a few odd affectations (particularly in spelling certain words... why fancied should be phant'sied while other words that have changed since the 17th century are unaffected I don't know... and I don't think ninnyhammer was ever spelled "ninehammer"), and a very incomplete tale... But I'm very much looking forward to the next ~1000 pages (The Confusion) come April! <\quote> Apart from that, Google only showed up "Ninehammer" as a name. > Onelook is a terrific dictionary resource. > > Try http://www.onelook.com/?ls=a&w=ninehammer > > It asks "did you mean ninnyhammer?" and finds that word > in six dictionaries. I used a Dutch Google, that asked "Did you mean niethammer", which means absolutely nothing to me :-) > Unfortunately, none of the six > happens to give a derivation, though two do say > "-Addison". Let's see what the brilliant translator of Lord of the Rings made of it. "'Domkoppen,' zei hij. Gossiepietje. Mijn mooie touw." Heh :-) "Domkoppen" is fools. Methinks it should have been "Domkop". "Gossiepietje" is very old and silly. I think it might be translated as "golly", or something. Gossiepietje. Ha :-) But, better than "macaroni", I guess. T. ###### From: Dirk Thierbach Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:54:02 +0200 Lines: 26 Message-ID: <20041010185402.A24.1.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> References: <2sqp5uF165h13U1@uni-berlin.de> <2st6rmF1n54jeU1@uni-berlin.de> Reply-To: Dirk Thierbach Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1MTAuLvjYx6OH2tUvzW2UAzdxkUh03pEAMDkPL4lFc9pmdeYajSlURhw== X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.7.5-20040615 ("Gighay") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.26 (i686)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162483 Taemon wrote: > I used a Dutch Google, that asked "Did you mean niethammer", > which means absolutely nothing to me :-) "Niethammer" is german for "riveting hammer". > Let's see what the brilliant translator of Lord of the Rings made > of it. > > "'Domkoppen,' zei hij. Gossiepietje. Mijn mooie touw." The german translation (the old one by Carroux, which is usually very good) has 'Tölpel!' sagte er. 'Dummköpfe! Mein schönes Seil!' "Tölpel" also means "fool(s)" (singular and plural are identical), but more like someone who cannot coordinate his movements properly, not like someone who is "stupid in the head". > Heh :-) "Domkoppen" is fools. Methinks it should have been > "Domkop". "Gossiepietje" is very old and silly. Is it made up out of two words? - Dirk ###### From: Dirk Thierbach Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:58:47 +0200 Lines: 13 Message-ID: <20041010185847.A24.2.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> References: Reply-To: Dirk Thierbach X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de Sb6RN3F1LUays4lCRERTqwQryT8/+9xQsWpPavD9GjhtCr0mpg+H/ADg== X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.7.5-20040615 ("Gighay") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.26 (i686)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162484 Stan Brown wrote: > Was this one composed for LotR It has the sound of an old saying, > though it's completely applicable today. When I read it in LotR, I > assumed Tolkien was quoting, perhaps in modified form (as he did > with Frodo's song at the Prancing Pony). But now I wonder: did > Tolkien invent this? Shippey observes somewhere in "The Road to Middle Earth" that Tolkien quite often expresses a modern worldview in the form of (often invented) archaic sounding proverbs. So it's quite possible Tolkien made this one up. - Dirk ###### Message-ID: <4169879E.AEDEA495@yahoo-dot.ca> From: Odysseus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,fr-CA,fr,fr-FR,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) References: <%n%9d.5736$xb.4835@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:03:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.166.231.142 X-Trace: edtnps84 1097435018 198.166.231.142 (Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:03:38 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:03:38 MDT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed2.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!edtnps84.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162486 Stan Brown wrote: > > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >I had to look up 'weskit'. I should have guessed it was a dialect word > >for waistcoat! Tolkien was famous for wearing brightly-coloured > >waistcoats like his hobbits!! > > Not so much a "dialect word" as phonetic transliteration of the > usual pronunciation. I believe Tolkien himself pronounced it > "weskit". > > For some reason, it is a convention to show rustic speech by writing > words exactly the way _everyone_ pronounces them rather than using > normal spelling. Compare "sez" for "says". Everybody pronounces the > word "sez", but somehow if you write it "sez" it indicates that a > rustic is speaking. > As John mentioned, the "sez" pronunciation is much less standard in Britain than in North America. Anyway, the term for such spellings as "weskit" is "eye dialect", and it's generally taken to be disparaging. Although Tolkien uses it with obvious affection, a cynical reader might still consider it patronizing. -- Odysseus ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:17:12 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <%n%9d.5736$xb.4835@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162491 "John Jones" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Not really; 'sez' is dialect or an accent. English Received Pronunciation >speakers use 'says'. Really? I've listened to lots of Brideshead Revisited and English Hitchcock movies and while I do hear the past tense of "are" as "wear", never hear the present of "say" as "says". -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:21:29 +0200 Organization: Encephalo Productions Lines: 29 Message-ID: <2stge1F1p19kaU1@uni-berlin.de> References: <2sqp5uF165h13U1@uni-berlin.de> <2st6rmF1n54jeU1@uni-berlin.de> <20041010185402.A24.1.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> Reply-To: "Taemon" X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de Sxx/64W2zdlbtk1xDAAtMwwwWFfkyUQeRN7O3mlB8MtDyFFZKm X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162495 Dirk Thierbach wrote: > Taemon wrote: > > I used a Dutch Google, that asked "Did you mean > > niethammer", which means absolutely nothing to me :-) > "Niethammer" is german for "riveting hammer". Ah. One wonders why Google.nl deemed it fit to inform me on that matter. > > Let's see what the brilliant translator of Lord of the > > Rings made of it. > > "'Domkoppen,' zei hij. Gossiepietje. Mijn mooie touw." > The german translation (the old one by Carroux, which is > usually very good) has > 'Tölpel!' sagte er. 'Dummköpfe! Mein schönes Seil!' With the exclamation marks? > > Heh :-) "Domkoppen" is fools. Methinks it should have > > been "Domkop". "Gossiepietje" is very old and silly. > Is it made up out of two words? Not that I know. I think it's one of those made-up curses, used by those who don't want to use His name in vain. T. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:41:39 -0500 Message-ID: <41699076.E373E590@operamail.com> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:41:42 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.80.74.154 X-Trace: sv3-NLq/LsoSMzsyVKMQrioi0Ng6Q6SiUwc62HhyBJBjPg+0yfhlMkMpiwy+o4c60r5PalPOgcLcWJ5CZAA!FxuvkhMa8LWtPvTqRM6wyxeqhgYJ8e2cXPqyl/5yDwV7dV3euIHZwCRVJXpKExn21A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162502 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > > > "'Ninnyhammers!' he said. 'Noodles! My beautiful rope! There it is > > tied to a stump, and we're at the bottom.'" (Sam about to be > > surprised by a rope, The Taming of Smeagol) > > Ninnyhammers is being discussed in another thread (it means fool), but > what on Earth does "Noodles!" mean? I've ferreted around various > dictionaries and learnt that as well as being a pasta-like food, noodle > can also refer to the human head. It might be a short leap from here to > infer a meaning that implies "bad thinking" or "foolish thinking". In > other words, Sam is once again berating himself for being a fool. Noodles here is a synonym for Ninnyhammer--fool, stupid person. It comes from slightly later, 18th rather than 16th, century. The etymology is uncertain, but is probably a development from Noddle-the back of the head, the head, but also a "stupid person" from about 1700. Noddle as a word for stupid person and also a bit later for the head ('the ol' noodle') appear less than a half century later, so the similarity in semantic fields and pronunciation suggest a rather strong connection. Noodle as in pasta probably enters English also in the late 1700s, but is probably a mispronunciation of German knudel with a an umlaut over that u, and a weakening of the initial "k". ###### From: nkeedy@msn.com (Nathan Keedy) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: 10 Oct 2004 16:14:45 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: <4f1e0c4d.0410101514.6b13e8a7@posting.google.com> References: <%n%9d.5736$xb.4835@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.47.185.197 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1097450086 18190 127.0.0.1 (10 Oct 2004 23:14:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 23:14:46 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162520 > > > For some reason, it is a convention to show rustic speech by writing > > words exactly the way _everyone_ pronounces them rather than using > > normal spelling. Compare "sez" for "says". Everybody pronounces the > > word "sez", but somehow if you write it "sez" it indicates that a > > rustic is speaking. > > > > Not really; 'sez' is dialect or an accent. English Received Pronunciation > speakers use 'says'. Really? I don't think I've ever met anyone who actually pronounces says as 'says'. ###### From: Dirk Thierbach Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 08:39:30 +0200 Lines: 12 Message-ID: <20041011063930.2F5.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> References: <41699076.E373E590@operamail.com> Reply-To: Dirk Thierbach Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 9vE0ACVB4llfi5EacGygagCuHZ1t1nbBtCY0G4z7kb/XttiXzL+7to7w== X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.7.5-20040615 ("Gighay") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.26 (i686)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162546 Larry Swain wrote: > Noodle as in pasta probably enters English also in the late > 1700s, but is probably a mispronunciation of German knudel with > a an umlaut over that u, and a weakening of the initial "k". Actually its an o with umlaut, i.e. "Knödel" ("flour dumpling"). "Knüdel" doesn't exist, though "Nüdeli", as a southern dialect form of "Nudel", does. My etymological dictionary says it might also come from the noun "Knuddel" (something pressed tightly together; probably related to "to cuddle"). - Dirk ###### From: Dirk Thierbach Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 08:47:54 +0200 Lines: 34 Message-ID: <20041011064754.2F5.1.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> References: <2sqp5uF165h13U1@uni-berlin.de> <2st6rmF1n54jeU1@uni-berlin.de> <20041010185402.A24.1.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> <2stge1F1p19kaU1@uni-berlin.de> Reply-To: Dirk Thierbach Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de JV+8Qnx+X6969pnGZbLKFQ3sXqanOFrwXgUTpNE203t8uPWdYmEiUTcw== X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.7.5-20040615 ("Gighay") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.26 (i686)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162547 Taemon wrote: > Dirk Thierbach wrote: >> "Niethammer" is german for "riveting hammer". > Ah. One wonders why Google.nl deemed it fit to inform me on that > matter. Yes :-) But Google.de sometimes also offers me spelling variants that look strange (they might be Dutch, but I didn't check, and I don't remember details). OTOH, northern german dialect and Dutch are sometimes similar enough, so maybe it's a feature :-) >> 'Tölpel!' sagte er. 'Dummköpfe! Mein schönes Seil!' > With the exclamation marks? Yes. It looks more natural this way. Different writing traditions, I guess. >> > Heh :-) "Domkoppen" is fools. Methinks it should have >> > been "Domkop". "Gossiepietje" is very old and silly. >> Is it made up out of two words? > Not that I know. I think it's one of those made-up curses, used > by those who don't want to use His name in vain. Ah. I can only interpret Dutch by association (which is sometimes completely wrong, and sometimes works, but is fun in any case), and it looked vaguely similar to "Gosse" (dirty small street) and then either a name, or something with "feet", or maybe even something related to "stone". But I guess then that's complete nonsense :-) - Dirk ###### From: "Taemon" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 22:05:06 +0200 Organization: Encephalo Productions Lines: 47 Message-ID: <2t07bsF1oj7iuU1@uni-berlin.de> References: <2sqp5uF165h13U1@uni-berlin.de> <2st6rmF1n54jeU1@uni-berlin.de> <20041010185402.A24.1.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> <2stge1F1p19kaU1@uni-berlin.de> <20041011064754.2F5.1.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> Reply-To: "Taemon" X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de y56/scpjSUn9DX/KNMm/tg8yCsulaEBrhJhKgtJ43o2quUcXRy X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162572 Dirk Thierbach wrote: > Taemon wrote: > > Dirk Thierbach wrote: > > > "Niethammer" is german for "riveting hammer". > > Ah. One wonders why Google.nl deemed it fit to inform > > me on that matter. > Yes :-) But Google.de sometimes also offers me spelling > variants that look strange (they might be Dutch, but I didn't > check, and I don't remember details). Tell me next time! > OTOH, northern german dialect > and Dutch are sometimes similar enough, so maybe it's a > feature :-) Heh. Maybe it's Fries. > > > 'Tölpel!' sagte er. 'Dummköpfe! Mein schönes Seil!' > > With the exclamation marks? > Yes. It looks more natural this way. Different writing > traditions, I guess. It does look more natural. I thought the original was without the exclamation marks, but I was mistaken. > > I think it's one of those made-up > > curses, used by those who don't want to use His name in > > vain. > Ah. I can only interpret Dutch by association (which is > sometimes completely wrong, and sometimes works, but is > fun in any case), and it looked vaguely similar to > "Gosse" (dirty small street) and then either > a name, or something with "feet", or maybe even something > related to "stone". But I guess then that's complete > nonsense :-) Yes :-) But I have no idea where it comes from. Try "blikskaters"! :-) Gossiepietje. Heh. T. ###### Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) From: "Seymour C. Moore" References: <41699076.E373E590@operamail.com> <20041011063930.2F5.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> Organization: UA User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Lines: 19 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 00:06:11 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!140.99.99.194.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!easynews-local!news.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162589 Dirk Thierbach wrote in news:20041011063930.2F5.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de: > Larry Swain wrote: >> Noodle as in pasta probably enters English also in the late >> 1700s, but is probably a mispronunciation of German knudel with >> a an umlaut over that u, and a weakening of the initial "k". > > Actually its an o with umlaut, i.e. "Knödel" ("flour dumpling"). > "Knüdel" doesn't exist, though "Nüdeli", as a southern dialect form of > "Nudel", does. My etymological dictionary says it might also come from > the noun "Knuddel" (something pressed tightly together; probably > related to "to cuddle"). Hmm...I wonder if the Norwegian verb "knulle" (fuck) comes from that word... C ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:37:43 -0500 Message-ID: <416B5F9A.D46A7E42@operamail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:37:46 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) References: <41699076.E373E590@operamail.com> <20041011063930.2F5.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.80.74.164 X-Trace: sv3-Me8eVJ7WEpAXoCRmA4chliGtYXibYGu32FlbMFitTXhrsjm2IY5fwcdh829MNgf+Fe5Xg0d0LaCP2ig!i5RwwxBO5VwilMklx2n3LFFuyJLT+1AnxzZu+yL2qAmbKdrqJLw1d9r/YgJO6EHM2w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162594 Dirk Thierbach wrote: > > Larry Swain wrote: > > Noodle as in pasta probably enters English also in the late > > 1700s, but is probably a mispronunciation of German knudel with > > a an umlaut over that u, and a weakening of the initial "k". > > Actually its an o with umlaut, i.e. "Knödel" ("flour dumpling"). "Knüdel" > doesn't exist, though "Nüdeli", as a southern dialect form of "Nudel", does. > My etymological dictionary says it might also come from the noun "Knuddel" > (something pressed tightly together; probably related to "to cuddle"). > > - Dirk Well, yes and no actually. First, I got confused: there should be no "k" in my Nudel! I got confused between Nudel and knodel. English "noodle" as in pasta likely comes from Nudel, not knodel, though they are related. Nudel is likely a Germanization of the Latin minutulus--very small, thought to refer to small bits of dough in soup. Sorry for the confusion! ###### From: Dirk Thierbach Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:21:29 +0200 Lines: 33 Message-ID: <20041012102129.4E1.1.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> References: <41699076.E373E590@operamail.com> <20041011063930.2F5.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> <416B5F9A.D46A7E42@operamail.com> Reply-To: Dirk Thierbach Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 4YoSQFtM6ElTZ267PbRO6AEXYCT2hHl98bAmTzYkVoHr+kUHaGe9uu9Q== X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.7.5-20040615 ("Gighay") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.26 (i686)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162603 Larry Swain wrote: > > > Dirk Thierbach wrote: >> >> Larry Swain wrote: >> > Noodle as in pasta probably enters English also in the late >> > 1700s, but is probably a mispronunciation of German knudel with >> > a an umlaut over that u, and a weakening of the initial "k". >> Actually its an o with umlaut, i.e. "Knödel" ("flour dumpling"). "Knüdel" >> doesn't exist, though "Nüdeli", as a southern dialect form of "Nudel", >> does. My etymological dictionary says it might also come from the noun >> "Knuddel" (something pressed tightly together; probably related to "to >> cuddle"). > Well, yes and no actually. First, I got confused: there should > be no "k" in my Nudel! I got confused between Nudel and > knodel. English "noodle" as in pasta likely comes from Nudel, > not knodel, though they are related. But German Nudel comes from Knödel (or Knuddel, etc.), according to my etymologogical dictionary. (And "Nudel" and "noodle" are of course the same word, not a mispronounciation -- I thought that was rather obvious). > Nudel is likely a Germanization of the Latin minutulus Maybe, though this variant isn't in the dictionary. I think the other variant looks more likely. But I don't know enough to really judge it. - Dirk ###### From: "John Jones" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:48:50 +0100 Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <%n%9d.5736$xb.4835@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.137.66.191 X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 1097674939 3362 62.137.66.191 (13 Oct 2004 13:42:19 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Oct 2004 13:42:19 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162668 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1bd354c4b8d4a56698cad6@news.odyssey.net... > "John Jones" wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > >Not really; 'sez' is dialect or an accent. English Received Pronunciation > >speakers use 'says'. > > Really? I've listened to lots of Brideshead Revisited and English > Hitchcock movies and while I do hear the past tense of "are" as > "wear", never hear the present of "say" as "says". > Possibly the idea of Received Pronunciation has changed; certainly the way pre-war upper class people spoke is quite different from modern RP. Tolkien himself told a bumptious American officer that RP is the speech of the bourgeoisie, not of the aristocracy. Needless to say, I consider that the way I speak is correct RP! The past tense of 'are' is 'wur' (but not quite). ###### From: "John Jones" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:50:17 +0100 Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <%n%9d.5736$xb.4835@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <4f1e0c4d.0410101514.6b13e8a7@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.137.66.191 X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 1097674940 3362 62.137.66.191 (13 Oct 2004 13:42:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Oct 2004 13:42:20 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162669 "Nathan Keedy" wrote in message news:4f1e0c4d.0410101514.6b13e8a7@posting.google.com... > > > > > For some reason, it is a convention to show rustic speech by writing > > > words exactly the way _everyone_ pronounces them rather than using > > > normal spelling. Compare "sez" for "says". Everybody pronounces the > > > word "sez", but somehow if you write it "sez" it indicates that a > > > rustic is speaking. > > > > > > > Not really; 'sez' is dialect or an accent. English Received Pronunciation > > speakers use 'says'. > > Really? I don't think I've ever met anyone who actually pronounces says as 'says'. Well, you know one now ;o) ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:48:49 -0500 Message-ID: <416CB3B6.20FAC8B7@operamail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:48:54 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) References: <41699076.E373E590@operamail.com> <20041011063930.2F5.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> <416B5F9A.D46A7E42@operamail.com> <20041012102129.4E1.1.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lines: 68 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.80.74.56 X-Trace: sv3-OgD4Ph7Hz22CImThCFAUBaZZBsJEd2Uznu8uNTO7Zv/KNsUSaTCMNC6sS959iqTSpzaEWqqcqr+oUCK!f3/QC5mbvlpadLcHoGUn69DZNXjsvL0D/hRwYR9zQDaSa17RPqMFC52dBGktAtv3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162660 Dirk Thierbach wrote: > > Larry Swain wrote: > > > > > > Dirk Thierbach wrote: > >> > >> Larry Swain wrote: > >> > Noodle as in pasta probably enters English also in the late > >> > 1700s, but is probably a mispronunciation of German knudel with > >> > a an umlaut over that u, and a weakening of the initial "k". > > >> Actually its an o with umlaut, i.e. "Knödel" ("flour dumpling"). "Knüdel" > >> doesn't exist, though "Nüdeli", as a southern dialect form of "Nudel", > >> does. My etymological dictionary says it might also come from the noun > >> "Knuddel" (something pressed tightly together; probably related to "to > >> cuddle"). > > > Well, yes and no actually. First, I got confused: there should > > be no "k" in my Nudel! I got confused between Nudel and > > knodel. English "noodle" as in pasta likely comes from Nudel, > > not knodel, though they are related. > > But German Nudel comes from Knödel (or Knuddel, etc.), according to > my etymologogical dictionary. (And "Nudel" and "noodle" are of course > the same word, not a mispronounciation -- I thought that was rather > obvious). So? The question was where noodle in English comes from, not about the development of german, English borrowed the word nudel, not knodel as i first said. And no, Nudel and noodle are not the same word, one is English and one is German. That English anglicized a German word 400 years ago is true and the English word is in origin a borrowing from German is also true, but they are not the same word. And you should pay more attention here: ready? If English borrowed Nudel and made it noodle, how can there be a K and an umlaut being mispronouced? Now here's the good part: they can't be. So the bit about the mispronunciation was my error as was my suggestion about Knodel being the source of the English word. Perhaps because I tried to make light of it you missed the fact that I was trying to say that I was wrong in the first place and then corrected my error. > > Nudel is likely a Germanization of the Latin minutulus > > Maybe, though this variant isn't in the dictionary. I think the > other variant looks more likely. But I don't know enough to really > judge it. Gapped forms of minutulos appear in ROmance languages meaning pasta too, so it is likely that they all came from the same root. I may check further if I have time. ###### From: Brian E. Clark Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.3.72.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s02 1097649168 24.3.72.115 (Wed, 13 Oct 2004 06:32:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 06:32:48 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 06:32:48 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wns14feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s02.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162662 In article , the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm says... > Was this one composed for LotR It has the sound of an old saying, > though it's completely applicable today. It reminds me much of, "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." Brian ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee) Message-ID: References: <2sqp5uF165h13U1@uni-berlin.de> <2st6rmF1n54jeU1@uni-berlin.de> <20041010185402.A24.1.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> <2stge1F1p19kaU1@uni-berlin.de> <20041011064754.2F5.1.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> <2t07bsF1oj7iuU1@uni-berlin.de> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 55 Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 15:04:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.121.24.191 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net 1098025449 165.121.24.191 (Sun, 17 Oct 2004 08:04:09 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 08:04:09 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!53e16bff!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162832 "Taemon" wrote: >Dirk Thierbach wrote: > >> Taemon wrote: >> > Dirk Thierbach wrote: >> > > "Niethammer" is german for "riveting hammer". >> > Ah. One wonders why Google.nl deemed it fit to inform >> > me on that matter. >> Yes :-) But Google.de sometimes also offers me spelling >> variants that look strange (they might be Dutch, but I didn't >> check, and I don't remember details). > >Tell me next time! > >> OTOH, northern german dialect >> and Dutch are sometimes similar enough, so maybe it's a >> feature :-) > >Heh. Maybe it's Fries. > >> > > 'Tölpel!' sagte er. 'Dummköpfe! Mein schönes Seil!' >> > With the exclamation marks? >> Yes. It looks more natural this way. Different writing >> traditions, I guess. > >It does look more natural. I thought the original was without the >exclamation marks, but I was mistaken. > > >> > I think it's one of those made-up >> > curses, used by those who don't want to use His name in >> > vain. >> Ah. I can only interpret Dutch by association (which is >> sometimes completely wrong, and sometimes works, but is >> fun in any case), and it looked vaguely similar to >> "Gosse" (dirty small street) and then either >> a name, or something with "feet", or maybe even something >> related to "stone". But I guess then that's complete >> nonsense :-) > >Yes :-) But I have no idea where it comes from. Try >"blikskaters"! :-) > >Gossiepietje. Heh. Huh. In the absence of all this information my completely uninformed guess would have been ... Peter the Goose. Where "goose" means "fool". Sort of like the "Simple Hans" character in German folk tales. But that would require that "gossie" is related to "goose", "pietje" to "Peter" -- and that geese are considered to be not very bright in The Netherlands. -- I still mostly download on Saturdays & upload on Sundays. Patience is a virtue.