From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Tolkien, Lewis and Arthur C. Clarke Lines: 53 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <5bH7d.1499$xb.703@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 23:52:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.98.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1096761153 82.44.98.207 (Sun, 03 Oct 2004 00:52:33 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 00:52:33 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162142 While reading a book today I was very surprised to stumble across a reference to Tolkien. I was wondering if anyone here would know anything more about this reference? The book is a collection of autobiographical essays by the famous science fiction writer Arthur C. Clarke (The View From Serendip, various dates, collection published 1978). In it, I found the following two tidbits: "I can recommend the sea voyage from London to Sydney to anyone who wants both to read 'The Lord of the Rings' and to write a novel of his/her own..." (this was 1954, Clarke wrote parts of 'The City and the Stars') Clarke then says that the ship arrived in Ceylon (Sri Lanka) in mid-December 1954. Surely this means that he can't have read all of 'The Lord of the Rings', but only 'The Fellowship of the Ring' and 'The Two Towers'. Or maybe only FotR (can't remember the exact publication dates and would also need the sailing date of the ship - which was P&O's Himalaya). Later, while talking about his role in the British Interplanetary Society, Clarke talks about celebrities that debated space travel with him: "Another literary figure who was not so sympathetic to our aims was the theologian and novelist C. S. Lewis. Although several of his best books are about space flight, he was very much opposed to the idea and attacked rocket societies because they would spread the crimes of mankind to other planets. This annoyed me, and we arranged a confrontation in a famous Oxford pub. My second was Val Cleaver, later head of the Rolls-Royce Rocket Division, and Dr Lewis was supported by Professor J. R. R. Tolkien, since famous for 'The Lord of the Rings'. We had a splendid time arguing about the merits of space travel, and as we parted Dr Lewis said, 'I am sure you are very wicked people, but how dull it would be if everyone was good.'" Clarke does not date this meeting, but from the context it must be before 1954 and appears to be between 1947 and 1951. I presume that the "famous Oxford pub" is 'The Bird and Baby' (or whatever it was called then or now). Can anyone remember if this is mentioned anywhere in Tolkien's Letters or in the Biography? Or maybe in Lewis's papers? Or anywhere else? I would like to find out more about this encounter, and maybe even date it properly. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.83.13.148 Message-ID: <415F7ACF.B407FBE5@no.spam> From: Sean X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien, Lewis and Arthur C. Clarke References: <5bH7d.1499$xb.703@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 04:03:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1096776220 64.59.144.74 (Sat, 02 Oct 2004 22:03:40 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 22:03:40 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162161 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > > Can anyone remember if this is mentioned anywhere in Tolkien's Letters > or in the Biography? Or maybe in Lewis's papers? Or anywhere else? I > would like to find out more about this encounter, and maybe even date it > properly. I'd also like to know more about it if any information is available. Lewis appeared to be much more on a religious agenda than Tolkien -- or maybe JRR was just more subtle about it. In other words it's a long way from Cair Andros to Cair Paravel, or so it seems to me. Sean ###### From: Matthew Woodcraft Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien, Lewis and Arthur C. Clarke Date: 03 Oct 2004 12:38:03 +0100 (BST) Organization: Linux Unlimited Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <5bH7d.1499$xb.703@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: rapun.sel.cam.ac.uk Originator: mattheww@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([193.201.200.170]) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.zanker.org!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!feeder.news.heanet.ie!feed4.jnfs.ja.net!feed2.jnfs.ja.net!jnfs.ja.net!gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk!news.cam.ac.uk!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!news.cam.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162181 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >Clarke does not date this meeting, but from the context it must be >before 1954 and appears to be between 1947 and 1951. I presume that the >"famous Oxford pub" is 'The Bird and Baby' (or whatever it was called >then or now). > >Can anyone remember if this is mentioned anywhere in Tolkien's Letters >or in the Biography? Or maybe in Lewis's papers? Or anywhere else? I >would like to find out more about this encounter, and maybe even date it >properly. It was in 1944, apparently in the Eastgate (over the road from the Mitre). I've never seen much about this in C S Lewis books. You'll do better working from the Clarke end. There's a recently-published book by Neil McAleer: <>. -M- ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <5bH7d.1499$xb.703@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: Tolkien, Lewis and Arthur C. Clarke Lines: 19 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <8xS7d.1663$xb.613@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 12:47:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.98.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1096807620 82.44.98.207 (Sun, 03 Oct 2004 13:47:00 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 13:47:00 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!feeder2.ecngs.de!217.73.144.44.MISMATCH!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!62.253.162.219.MISMATCH!news-in.ntli.net!newsrout1-win.ntli.net!ntli.net!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162186 Matthew Woodcraft wrote: [Clarke, Cleaver, Lewis, Tolkien debate] > It was in 1944, apparently in the Eastgate (over the road from the > Mitre). > > I've never seen much about this in C S Lewis books. You'll do better > working from the Clarke end. Strange that Lewis avoided the issue, if he did. > There's a recently-published book by Neil McAleer: < Space Odyssey: The war of ideas between Arthur C Clarke and C S > Lewis>>. Wonderful! Thanks! Must try to get his authorised biography of Clarke as well. ###### From: Menelvagor@mailandnews.com (Count Menelvagor) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien, Lewis and Arthur C. Clarke Date: 3 Oct 2004 17:15:34 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6bfb27a8.0410031615.5a00679@posting.google.com> References: <5bH7d.1499$xb.703@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.63.221.92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1096848934 16773 127.0.0.1 (4 Oct 2004 00:15:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 00:15:34 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!proxad.net!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162224 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:<5bH7d.1499$xb.703@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>... > Later, while talking about his role in the British Interplanetary > Society, Clarke talks about celebrities that debated space travel with > him: > > "Another literary figure who was not so sympathetic to our aims was the > theologian and novelist C. S. Lewis. Although several of his best books > are about space flight, he was very much opposed to the idea and > attacked rocket societies because they would spread the crimes of > mankind to other planets. This annoyed me, and we arranged a > confrontation in a famous Oxford pub. My second was Val Cleaver, later lewis was quite right. hmunsa wd have not only wreaked havoc, but would done so appallingly unaesthetically.