From: tree01@inreach.com (Felix Oscar) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Tolkien's quasi-Chinese logo Date: 28 Sep 2004 10:00:15 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 2 Message-ID: <22986a60.0409280900.72c248f5@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.209.19.126 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1096390815 22681 127.0.0.1 (28 Sep 2004 17:00:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:00:15 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161833 Was JRR alive when they made the quasi-Chinese logo made from his initials? Did JRR have any interest in Asian or African culture? I've never read that he did. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's quasi-Chinese logo Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:09:51 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <24ajl091ru4iubtnhmkkd6r59v341091op@4ax.com> References: <22986a60.0409280900.72c248f5@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-08!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161836 On 28 Sep 2004 10:00:15 -0700, tree01@inreach.com (Felix Oscar) wrote: >Was JRR alive when they made the quasi-Chinese logo made from his initials? I don't remember. Either JRR or his son, Christopher, designed the 'logo', actually, in this case, called a 'monogram'. >Did JRR have any interest in Asian or African culture? I've never read that he did. Not as far as I recall. the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now. -- Steven Wright ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 70.70.200.108 Reply-To: "Chris Wright" From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <22986a60.0409280900.72c248f5@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Tolkien's quasi-Chinese logo Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 20:22:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1096402974 64.59.144.74 (Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:22:54 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:22:54 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161843 "Felix Oscar" wrote in message news:22986a60.0409280900.72c248f5@posting.google.com... > Was JRR alive when they made the quasi-Chinese logo made from his > initials? Quasi-Chinese? I'm sure any resemblence to Eastern glyphs is purely coincidental. It's just a stylistic interposition of his four initials (the second 'R' being reversed). ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <22986a60.0409280900.72c248f5@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Tolkien's quasi-Chinese logo Lines: 10 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:37:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.153.163.152 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: trndny04 1096407448 141.153.163.152 (Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:37:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:37:28 EDT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trndny04.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161853 "Felix Oscar" wrote in message news:22986a60.0409280900.72c248f5@posting.google.com... > Was JRR alive when they made the quasi-Chinese logo made > from his initials? Tolkien designed the monogram himself. It was a common practice which had nothing to do with Asian or African cultures. ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <22986a60.0409280900.72c248f5@posting.google.com> <24ajl091ru4iubtnhmkkd6r59v341091op@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Tolkien's quasi-Chinese logo Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 02:04:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.160.230.204 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1096423468 24.160.230.204 (Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:04:28 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:04:28 CDT Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!feed.news.schlund.de!schlund.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!cox.net!news-xfer.cox.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161867 the softrat wrote: > On 28 Sep 2004 10:00:15 -0700, tree01@inreach.com (Felix Oscar) wrote: > >> Was JRR alive when they made the quasi-Chinese logo made from his >> initials? > > I don't remember. Either JRR or his son, Christopher, designed the > 'logo', actually, in this case, called a 'monogram'. I've seen it on some of his early artwork, suggesting that JRR designed it himself. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### From: "Hellekin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's quasi-Chinese logo Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:21:29 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0409280900.72c248f5@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-154-93-6.range81-154.btcentralplus.com X-Trace: sparta.btinternet.com 1096456889 12584 81.154.93.6 (29 Sep 2004 11:21:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:21:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!carbon.eu.sun.com!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161874 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:sQk6d.8242$sP2.4360@trndny04... > "Felix Oscar" wrote in message > news:22986a60.0409280900.72c248f5@posting.google.com... > > > Was JRR alive when they made the quasi-Chinese logo made > > from his initials? > > Tolkien designed the monogram himself. It was a common practice which > had nothing to do with Asian or African cultures. > Tolkien did indeed create the monogram himself. I suggested a while back that it may have been related to the uncannily similar Japanese kanji symbols "hon" and "moku" - which intriguingly mean "book" and "tree" respectively. I thought it noteworthy because there is no doubt JRRT was very fond of both books and trees. At first I assumed this to be pure coincidence rather than a deliberate construct by a tree-loving bibliophile linguist. However the book "JRR Tolkien; Artist and Illustrator" (though not directly mentioning the connection) actually lends a great deal of credence to my idea that Tolkien may not only have been subconsciously aware of kanji - but may in fact have deliberately modified them. He is reported to have bought several Japanese prints for his rooms at Oxford while there as an undergraduate so he would certainly have encountered kanji in his teenage years. Even so, Japanese influences could be seen even in the most mundane environments in Tolkien's day - the patterns of William Morris, himself inspired by oriental designs, were a major influence on Tolkien's artistic development. Perhaps equally convincingly, these particular kanji are not obscure ones. In fact "hon" is one of two symbols that make up the word for "Japan" itself. The symbol represents a tree with roots - normally this means "book" but in this context the 'roots' can also mean 'origins'. Along with Ni (the symbol for sun) the literal translation of "Nihon" or "Nippon" is 'Origin of the Sun', or more familiarly to westerners 'Land of the Rising Sun'. What these symbols mean is likely to be one of the first questions an enquiring mind (with a fascination for languages) may ask of Japanese characters. It is certainly a common question from those who are just beginning to learn Japanese. As far as I know the symbols are the same in Chinese too (which is where they originated). It would be no surprise to me at all that Tolkien's own monogram was inspired at least in part by these oriental symbols that represent things so dear to his heart. ###### From: Huan the hound Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's quasi-Chinese logo Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:06:25 -0400 Organization: Mediocre; I could really use a filing cabinet around here. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <2s015tF1eq9prU1@uni-berlin.de> References: <22986a60.0409280900.72c248f5@posting.google.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de YOunKikYaSUljJpGKUYAbAOO1Z3YaRqGnh5BDZaJCeAKP+Ts6I User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Macintosh/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161883 Hellekin posted on 9/29/04 7:21 AM: [snip] > In fact "hon" is one of two symbols that make up the word > for "Japan" itself. The symbol represents a tree with > roots - normally this means "book" but in this context > the 'roots' can also mean 'origins'. Along with Ni (the > symbol for sun) the literal translation of "Nihon" or > "Nippon" is 'Origin of the Sun', or more familiarly to > westerners 'Land of the Rising Sun'. [snip] > As far as I know the symbols are the same in Chinese too > (which is where they originated). Yeah, they're "ri ben" in Mandarin pinyin (sounds a little like "urban" in English), and mean sun and notebook as you said, though "ben" must have another meaning beyond my limited vocabulary. Huan, the hound of Valinor -- Yet at length Draugluin escaped, and fleeing back into the tower he died before Sauron's feet; and as he died he told his master: 'Huan is there!'