From: jsberry@yahoo.com (jsberry) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: 27 Sep 2004 11:37:41 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 36 Message-ID: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.55.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1096310262 20843 127.0.0.1 (27 Sep 2004 18:37:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:37:42 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161777 Who would you pick to go from Rivendell? I'd pick five: Frodo (fated to carry the ring) Sam (faithful companion, alternate ring-bearer) Gandalf (magic, lore, diplomatic contacts, not bad with a sword) Aragorn (ranger skills, fighting ability) Glorfindel (can fight big-uglies like nazgul, balrogs, etc.) The Counsel's goals of "diversity" and an arbitrary quota of 9 were unnecessary. Gimli's axe was better used in big battles. Boromir's exclusion should have been obvious, even without hindsight. Glorfindel was a better choice than Legolas; presumably Glorfindel was the best fighter among to all the free peoples so it would be a pity to waste him. Pippin and Merry were worthless, slowed them down, and nearly got everybody killed. And why not send them to Dale with an escort of Giants (in the mountains)Beornings (in the vale) and Woodelves (in Mirkwood), then down the river to Emyn Muhl, etc. To promote the "diversity" all-for-one theme, I would have sent a second delegation to Minas Tirith via Lorien and Rohan with Boromir, Legolas, Gimli, Pippin, and Merry. (A split-off fellowship to MT was an option left available to the Nine Walkers, but I would send them on a different path, to remove deadweight from the primary mission and draw off attention of enemies looking for "halflings.") Alternately, if 9 must be the quota, whom would you send? Glorfindel rather than Boromir? Sons of Elrond rather than Pippin & Merry? Obviously, Tolkien had his reasons for his Fellowship (it was a darn good story) but if you were actually head of the Counsel, what would you do? Try not to use hindsight, like knowing Boromir will flip, etc. ###### From: "Dan_Leach" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 22:27:47 +0100 Lines: 21 Message-ID: <2rrerlF1dphmeU1@uni-berlin.de> References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1yGL4P8n13GJuJZgaCoaCA7sWxR8/HTRxX/LoCgSPqFIUC1ayo X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161789 Well, i think as elrond said the quest could only be achieved through secrecy and power wasnt the answer, id go with a similar group... in fact thinking about it.... the same group :)) Of those i might think of leaving behind Boromir was going back to minas tirith anyway and his path was with the fellowship for hundreds of miles so he is in at the start, pippin and merry insisted they would follow the fellowship of their own volition anyway, so they had to be included. Legolas and Gimli were the 2 obvious representatives of their own cultures for the fellowship (maybe change Glorfindel for Legolas, but maybe Glorfindel was to powerful with to much presence to approach morder in secrecy...maybe). Aragorn was off to fullfill a destiny that seemed almost laid before his feet and Gandalf was the main mover of events in the struggle against sauron (at least in the second half of the third age) So, all in all i think i would choose the fellowship as it was. If anything maybe even make it more secret and more rustic and just send the 4 hobbits with a guide (a fairly unknown member of the dunedain or some other very experienced traveller) It might have been an interesting angle to the story if it was mostly about hobbits, although i think they might have to become something they simply arnt to fullfill a story like that. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <4S%5d.286$TP4.88@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:45:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.164.134 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1096321536 82.43.164.134 (Mon, 27 Sep 2004 22:45:36 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 22:45:36 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.zanker.org!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!feeder1.essentkabel.com!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161792 jsberry wrote: > Who would you pick to go from Rivendell? Arwen. On her own. With a sword. And the Ring. ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:54:18 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.glorb.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161793 "jsberry" wrote in message news:51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com... > Who would you pick to go from Rivendell? > (snip) > to waste him. Pippin and Merry were worthless, slowed them down, and > nearly got everybody killed. Worthless? I think not. Ask Eomer or Faramir or Beregond if they thought Merry and Pippin were "worthless". Let's see: They were both responsible for the Ents taking out Saruman, and Merry helped Eowyn take out the Witch-king, while Pippin save Faramir from his crazy father. Worthless, huh? And how would Merry and Pippin have slowed them any more than Frodo or Sam? As to "nearly getting everybody killed" I'd like to know when and where? The stone in Moria? I think it's pretty well established they would have had a run in with the Orcs with or without the stone. True, Boromir was killed defending them, but he certainly did not fall into the category of "everybody", and as it gave him a chance to redeem himself for "flipping" as you call it, he might have felt the sacrifice worth it. Personally, I cannot imagine the story as being anything like the one we love without the Fellowship being the ones who were chosen in the story. But if you are insisting on playing games, and seem to think that Boromir should have been excluded by hindsight, I suppose you could have had Faramir take the dream to Rivendell instead. That's the only change I can see that would make any sense. Barbara > ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:46:28 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 36 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161805 "jsberry" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >The Counsel's goals of "diversity" and an arbitrary quota of 9 were >unnecessary. Gimli's axe was better used in big battles. Boromir's >exclusion should have been obvious, even without hindsight. To take the last point first, why? Why was Boromir's exclusion obvious? Remember that the Fellowship was _not_ charged to go to the Cracks of Doom -- only Frodo had that charge on him. The others were to accompany him for as far as they chose. Gimli argued that they should swear to accompany Frodo, and Elrond overruled him emphatically. Given that, Boromir was obvious to go with them. Like Aragorn, he was a valuable fighting man, _and_ he had knowledge of some of the lands they would have to pass through. Now, as for the diversity issue. Elrond was not being PC. In mythic times like the Third Age, people live by symbols. Having a representative of each of the Free Peoples makes a strong statement, one that was repeated when Gandalf spoke to Saruman in the "Voice" chapter. But as for Glorfindel rather than Legolas, I confess that one makes more sense to me too. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### Message-ID: <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> From: pawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 63 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:49:24 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.229.184.40 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1096336387 64.229.184.40 (Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:53:07 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:53:07 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nf3.bellglobal.com!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!HSE-MTL-ppp68167.qc.sympatico.ca!nobody Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161807 aelfwina wrote: > "jsberry" wrote in message > >>to waste him. Pippin and Merry were worthless, slowed them down, and >>nearly got everybody killed. > Worthless? I think not. Ask Eomer or Faramir or Beregond if they > thought > Merry and Pippin were "worthless". Let's see: They were both responsible for > the Ents taking out Saruman, and Merry helped Eowyn take out the Witch-king, > while Pippin save Faramir from his crazy father. Worthless, huh? To be fair to the OP, all of these events could have been precipitated by Glorfindel alone. More importantly, for all we know, Gandalf may have survived Moria if not for the early warning the orcs got due to Pippin's mischief. The inclusion of Glorfindel and longer initial life of Gandalf could have made the entire war unnecessary (depending on what Gandalf's plan from the beginning was, if he had any at all past Lorien). I find it pretty hard to argue the OP's point from a strategic point of view. > And how > would Merry and Pippin have slowed them any more than Frodo or Sam? As to > "nearly getting everybody killed" I'd like to know when and where? The > stone in Moria? I think it's pretty well established they would have had a > run in with the Orcs with or without the stone. But they definitely lost the element of surprise. > True, Boromir was killed defending them, but he certainly did not fall into > the category of "everybody", and as it gave him a chance to redeem himself > for "flipping" as you call it, he might have felt the sacrifice worth it. Can't agree here. The Ring was too great a test for any mortal and almost any immortal. Boromir would have been better off never having known about it. > Personally, I cannot imagine the story as being anything like the one we > love without the Fellowship being the ones who were chosen in the story. Of course, it is devised brilliantly from beginning to end. I wouldn't change a thing in the story. That's not what the OP was asking though. > But if you are insisting on playing games, Not even sure what that's about. It was an interesting topic for a group that seems to become more and more mundane very year. In case you haven't noticed, regulars are starting to welcome flame wars with old adversaries. What the hell is with this group anyway? How many times must a newcomer retreat with his/her tail between their legs for bringing up something worth talking about? > and seem to think that Boromir > should have been excluded by hindsight, The OP said even without hindsight. > I suppose you could have had > Faramir take the dream to Rivendell instead. That's the only change I can > see that would make any sense. How does that make any more sense than including one of the most resourceful beings in Middle Earth in the original fellowship? ###### Message-ID: <4158C92D.6080903@porterhouse.com> From: pawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 22:15:09 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.229.184.40 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1096338187 64.229.184.40 (Mon, 27 Sep 2004 22:23:07 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 22:23:07 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.glorb.com!cyclone.bc.net!news.uunet.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!HSE-MTL-ppp68167.qc.sympatico.ca!nobody Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161810 Stan Brown wrote: > "jsberry" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > To take the last point first, why? Why was Boromir's exclusion > obvious? > Remember that the Fellowship was _not_ charged to go to the Cracks > of Doom -- only Frodo had that charge on him. The others were to > accompany him for as far as they chose. Gimli argued that they > should swear to accompany Frodo, and Elrond overruled him > emphatically. > Given that, Boromir was obvious to go with them. Like Aragorn, he > was a valuable fighting man, _and_ he had knowledge of some of the > lands they would have to pass through. > For one thing, the Fellowship was chosen by Elrond, with the help of Gandalf and possibly Aragorn and who knows what other beings which were clearly in possession of prescient abilities. For another, Boromir had already shown signs in the Council of falling under the Ring's influence (unless desiring the Ring's power from th moment he first saw it wasn't a sign). > Now, as for the diversity issue. Elrond was not being PC. In mythic > times like the Third Age, people live by symbols. Having a > representative of each of the Free Peoples makes a strong statement, > one that was repeated when Gandalf spoke to Saruman in the "Voice" > chapter. I agree there was no political motive, but it does come off as a little whimsical in the books, considering the serious nature of the man who made the final choice. You could argue he had foresight, but then there's that whole Boromir issue. ###### From: "Mike Sullivan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 22:46:17 -0700 Organization: SLAC Lines: 122 Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> Reply-To: "Mike Sullivan" NNTP-Posting-Host: libwin15.slac.stanford.edu X-Trace: news.Stanford.EDU 1096350446 18668 134.79.20.35 (28 Sep 2004 05:47:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.stanford.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!newsfeed.stanford.edu!shelby.stanford.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161815 "pawn" wrote in message news:4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com... > aelfwina wrote: > > "jsberry" wrote in message > > > >>to waste him. Pippin and Merry were worthless, slowed them down, and > >>nearly got everybody killed. > > > > Worthless? I think not. Ask Eomer or Faramir or Beregond if they thought > > Merry and Pippin were "worthless". Let's see: They were both responsible for > > the Ents taking out Saruman, and Merry helped Eowyn take out the Witch-king, > > while Pippin save Faramir from his crazy father. Worthless, huh? > > To be fair to the OP, all of these events could have been precipitated > by Glorfindel alone. More importantly, for all we know, Gandalf may I always had the sense that Glorfindel's prophecy included elves as a gender. Glorfindel was a match for the Witch King, but he didn't take him out in the wars in the north. Would Glorfindel have been at the Tower of the Guard when the gates were being assaulted? No, he would have been facing the Witch King along with Gandalf. > have survived Moria if not for the early warning the orcs got due to > Pippin's mischief. The inclusion of Glorfindel and longer initial life > of Gandalf could have made the entire war unnecessary (depending on what > Gandalf's plan from the beginning was, if he had any at all past > Lorien). I find it pretty hard to argue the OP's point from a strategic > point of view. Certainly makes sense, which is why the story is so great. If Glorfindel had gone, I think he would have certainly stood before the Balrog, and been a match. This would have spared Gandalf to help the hobbits to get to Mordor, probably send Aragorn to Minas Tirith to create the feint they would need. This would have been a disaster, of course, as Gollum would have become unnecessary and thus untamed. Gandalf would have had to try to seize the ring at the Crack of Doom, and then stand against Sauron. There would be an overwhelming enemy to Aragorn's rear. Glorfindel was too strong an entity in ME. Might as well send a host of Elves. Surely, Gandalf was as strong but was cloaked as a man. > > > And how > > would Merry and Pippin have slowed them any more than Frodo or Sam? As to > > "nearly getting everybody killed" I'd like to know when and where? The > > stone in Moria? I think it's pretty well established they would have had a > > run in with the Orcs with or without the stone. > > But they definitely lost the element of surprise There was a definite foreshadowing of Gandalf's fall. By it being a desperate journey required that the strong fall. > > > True, Boromir was killed defending them, but he certainly did not fall into > > the category of "everybody", and as it gave him a chance to redeem himself > > for "flipping" as you call it, he might have felt the sacrifice worth it. > > Can't agree here. The Ring was too great a test for any mortal and > almost any immortal. Boromir would have been better off never having > known about it. But it helped Faramir resist the lure. Thus was Boromir vindicated and his honorable death not in vain. > > > Personally, I cannot imagine the story as being anything like the one we > > love without the Fellowship being the ones who were chosen in the story. > > Of course, it is devised brilliantly from beginning to end. I wouldn't > change a thing in the story. That's not what the OP was asking though. I agree. I would have chosen Glorfindel, Aragorn, Gandalf, Merry, Sam, Gimli, and Boromir. > > > But if you are insisting on playing games, > > Not even sure what that's about. It was an interesting topic for a > group that seems to become more and more mundane very year. In case you > haven't noticed, regulars are starting to welcome flame wars with old > adversaries. What the hell is with this group anyway? How many times > must a newcomer retreat with his/her tail between their legs for > bringing up something worth talking about? > > > and seem to think that Boromir > > should have been excluded by hindsight, > > The OP said even without hindsight. > > > I suppose you could have had > > Faramir take the dream to Rivendell instead. That's the only change I can > > see that would make any sense. > > How does that make any more sense than including one of the most > resourceful beings in Middle Earth in the original fellowship? > Excluding Glorfindel is covered in the Council. Glorfindel was prepared to assault the walls of Mordor, not to sneak in. I think Elrond was pretty clear that Glorfindel had too much outward power to do the job. Gandalf was as powerful or more, but was used to a more humble existence. Mike ###### From: north5@gmail.com (Al MacLeod) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: 28 Sep 2004 03:18:23 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 53 Message-ID: <37ae01c1.0409280218.1885f9d1@posting.google.com> References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.232.123.113 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1096366704 24318 127.0.0.1 (28 Sep 2004 10:18:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:18:24 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161818 jsberry@yahoo.com (jsberry) wrote in message news:<51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com>... > Boromir's > exclusion should have been obvious, even without hindsight. There's another problem with excluding Boromir, even with hindsight. He had been summoned here to represent the most powerful free nation of men, who have been guarding against Sauron for thousands of years, and who were a very powerful force. Gondor must be kept "on-side" - for the war, for the secrecy of the mission, for Aragorn's coronation. Imagine if Boromir had gone all that way (losing his horse ;)), been introduced to a guy who claimed to be his king, told all about this mighty weapon which could save his people, then told that he wasn't allowed to play, even though they were going the same way. Denethor would have been furious, Gondor would not have co-operated - they may even have attempted to intercept and sieze the party on the way down. Aragorn would have found a hostile kingdom, and the alliance against Sauron would have been uncoordinated and fractuous. Better to keep him along, and hope that the parting at Nen Hithoel is amicable! > Glorfindel was a better choice than Legolas; presumably Glorfindel was > the best fighter among to all the free peoples so it would be a pity > to waste him. Pippin and Merry were worthless, slowed them down, and > nearly got everybody killed. Without hindsight Merry and Pippin have nothing to offer, I would see no reason to include them. So far, they'd been nearly killed several times, and the most pro-active thing they'd done was run at the Black Riders waving flaming brands (that Aragorn lit). However I think that Gimli and Legolas have something to offer; both symbolically, and practically - they offer very different skill sets. In summary, I'd just lose the two hobbits and keep the rest. :-) If it has to be nine, send Elladan and Elrohir. Thinking about it, although Legolas represents "the elves", he's only really representing the Sylvan elves. No representative of the Noldor? Or does Aragorn count? ;-) > And why not send them to Dale with an escort of Giants (in the > mountains)Beornings (in the vale) and Woodelves (in Mirkwood), then > down the river to Emyn Muhl, etc. I'm not sure about that - but I agree the route should have been a little better thought through. :-) Al .-. ###### From: jsberry@yahoo.com (jsberry) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: 28 Sep 2004 05:40:19 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 38 Message-ID: <51431c0.0409280440.3b8120ca@posting.google.com> References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.55.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1096375220 2286 127.0.0.1 (28 Sep 2004 12:40:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:40:20 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161821 "aelfwina" wrote in message news:<10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com>... > "jsberry" wrote in message > news:51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com... > Worthless? I think not. Ask Eomer or Faramir or Beregond if they thought > Merry and Pippin were "worthless". Let's see: They were both responsible for > the Ents taking out Saruman, and Merry helped Eowyn take out the Witch-king, > while Pippin save Faramir from his crazy father. Worthless, huh? And how > would Merry and Pippin have slowed them any more than Frodo or Sam? As to > "nearly getting everybody killed" I'd like to know when and where? The > stone in Moria? I think it's pretty well established they would have had a > run in with the Orcs with or without the stone. The question is to look at this from the perspective of the Counsel. The "character growth" of Pippin and Merry was unpredictable; their value was negligible; their liabilities were obvious. Pippin awoke the orcs and maybe the Balrog with his stone. He almost gave up the whole plan with the palantir (if Sauron had interrogated him). The men had to carry them over the snow. I'm assuming they slowed down the daily marches too, even if they didn't stop for elevensies. In short, their early screw-ups were predictable but their later heroics were not. > Personally, I cannot imagine the story as being anything like the one we > love without the Fellowship being the ones who were chosen in the story. I'm not trying to re-write Tolkien's story. I love the story. I'm looking at it from a strategic/wargaming perspective. For fun. > But if you are insisting on playing games Precisely. You would probably not be interested in this thread. > and seem to think that Boromir should have been excluded by hindsight, I suppose you could have had Faramir take the dream to Rivendell instead. That's the only change I can see that would make any sense. No, even without hindsight. He was not enthusiastic about the plan, he showed early signs of ring-lust, and he has a motive to conflict with Aragorn (which he did keep under control, mostly). And Boromir is already at the Counsel, the question is how to deal with him. ###### From: "Gorbag" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <51431c0.0409280440.3b8120ca@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: <6Yd6d.1$IJ3.0@bos-service2.ext.ray.com> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:47:58 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.125.220.77 X-Complaints-To: news@ext.ray.com X-Trace: bos-service2.ext.ray.com 1096379266 138.125.220.77 (Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:47:46 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:47:46 EDT Organization: Raytheon Company Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!nntp.cifnet.net!HSNX.atgi.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!151.164.30.34!cyclone.swbell.net!bos-service1.raytheon.com!bos-service2.ext.ray.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161824 "jsberry" wrote in message news:51431c0.0409280440.3b8120ca@posting.google.com... > The question is to look at this from the perspective of the Counsel. > The "character growth" of Pippin and Merry was unpredictable; their > value was negligible; their liabilities were obvious. Pippin awoke > the orcs and maybe the Balrog with his stone. He almost gave up the > whole plan with the palantir (if Sauron had interrogated him). The > men had to carry them over the snow. I'm assuming they slowed down > the daily marches too, even if they didn't stop for elevensies. In > short, their early screw-ups were predictable but their later heroics > were not. That's pretty much true for everyone. The hobbits are metaphors for children in that sense. Even Chess has pawns. Only some become queens (or any other more powerful piece; knights sometimes come in handy too). There is also the element of providence. Had Gandalf NOT fallen, he would not have emerged with his greater power as the white wizard, either. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:39:22 -0500 From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <4S%5d.286$TP4.88@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:39:18 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <1tqdnce-_94mDsTcRVn-ow@conversent.net> Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.203.74.66 X-Trace: sv3-GBeVgHpSYHK3bKQmO0VHVSsh9g5McLnJ53bbKE1KDpkaaUFiZJYYFnPjZcMFvrZViJFi+AQ5Ym4KUpY!9W0QpotYn9Khh/KHCadhR4nai0BDfXpWq/sAx3R9yMyjmOCmr+tLMS0AnmLZGM5RDtshYP6DweAp!eO/p1g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.15 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.conversent.net!news.conversent.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161829 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:4S%5d.286$TP4.88@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk... > jsberry wrote: > > Who would you pick to go from Rivendell? > > Arwen. On her own. With a sword. And the Ring. :o) (riding an Eagle?) T.A. ###### From: "David Besack" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:47:20 -0400 Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 9 Sender: dbesack@shenker-lab5.team-shenker.dental.upenn.edu Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shenker-lab5.team-shenker.dental.upenn.edu X-Trace: netnews.upenn.edu 1096390042 407302 130.91.35.95 (28 Sep 2004 16:47:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@upenn.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:47:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news2.telebyte.nl!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news2.wam.umd.edu!elk.ncren.net!nntp.upenn.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161830 > Worthless? I think not. Ask Eomer or Faramir or Beregond if they thought > Merry and Pippin were "worthless". Let's see: They were both responsible for > the Ents taking out Saruman, That course of action was likely going to happen anyway, don't you think? ###### From: "David Besack" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:51:16 -0400 Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 10 Sender: dbesack@shenker-lab5.team-shenker.dental.upenn.edu Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shenker-lab5.team-shenker.dental.upenn.edu X-Trace: netnews.upenn.edu 1096390276 418910 130.91.35.95 (28 Sep 2004 16:51:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@upenn.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:51:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!info4.fnal.gov!nntp.upenn.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161831 > The inclusion of Glorfindel and longer initial life > of Gandalf could have made the entire war unnecessary (depending on what > Gandalf's plan from the beginning was, if he had any at all past > Lorien). I always thought he might try to move east along the mountains and enter Mordor from the east. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:01:16 -0500 From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:01:16 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Lines: 99 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.203.74.66 X-Trace: sv3-ONy8jnHLeDuhms4GP+uLI00JY2aD0D2Qk/GuB68Qf45uu9mKi2VrosDw5gMCkpP6DTkpcaq11Hvg0JY!jcwJmJ6efCrtpuqmvN2PtBfNIWW9PMLSlkjVvs/+JMEvtG903TZAbBm/BWD2Wsr4KGzHPWwGGpcV!GMdaTw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.16 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.conversent.net!news.conversent.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161834 "Mike Sullivan" wrote in message news:cjatte$i7c$1@news.Stanford.EDU... > > Excluding Glorfindel is covered in the Council. Glorfindel was prepared to > assault the walls of Mordor, not to sneak in. huh? I'll assume you're just being poetic. > I think Elrond was pretty > clear that Glorfindel had too much outward power to do the job. "outward power"? Elves can be pretty stealthy too and that's what was needed. I think what Elrond was saying was that, no matter how powerful the the force that was sent, if it wasn't powerful enough to wage total war against all of Mordor and break itself in to reach Mt Doom then brute force (or power) wouldn't be enough. I don't think he was actually suggesting that Glorfindel had a chance. Elrond was just using him as an example of a powerful figure. 20 butt kicking Noldor are going to set off more alarms than a few stinky men and hobbits. (Legolas and Gimli weren't originally going all that way to Mordor, I believe) Glorfindel would have been usefull though. I wonder who Elrond would have picked if Merry and Pippin didn't step up. It opens up a whole slew of what-ifs! Here's my Fellowship: Gandalf; the pass over the mountains would still have been blocked. Make Gimli drop the rock in Moria. Since Gandalf is in charge he still takes the point against the Balrog and dies. Why does everyone think Glorfindel would attack the Balrog? Is he a glutten for punishment? Frodo - Sam - At the Breaking of the Fellowship these 3 would have followed Frodo's original path Glorfindel - Aragorn - Gimli - Follow same path Legolas - Boromir - Still dies after trying for the Ring a Ranger - perhaps Aragorns sister? That might be the nessesary motivation to go to the rescue. Perhaps she also holds some info that mustn't get to Saruman? Saruman thinks a Ranger holds the Ring? This unnamed Ranger also manages to rouse the Ents. This also opens the way for some backstory fills and maybe some more info on the Arwen/Aragorn romance. Actually it opens up the possibility for a ton of info by their interaction. She and Eowyn kill the Witch King after Aragorn refuses to take her through the Paths of the Dead but have her die for added tragedy. Gollem and Glorfindel. Won't those two be interesting travel partners! Gollem sticks to his original plan. They still follow Gollem suspecting treachery but perhaps they feel more confident with the High Elf with them. Glorfindel battles and kills Shelob and accurately, this time, rouses the Orcs to existence of a mighty Elf warrior on the loose.Cirith Ungol is emptied trying to find the "spy" and Glorfindel has no choice but to draw the enemy off leaving Frodo and Sam to find MT Doom by themselves. The rest of the story follows out like the original. But this could be a richer story with more history or..... maybe not. What suffers is the Scouring of the Shire. Merry and Pippen were really integral parts of that chapter. But it still could be done if they were part of some Shire resistance while Frodo was gone like Elrond wanted. ************************ Not too much of a difference but doesn't seem as cutesy with the two less Hobbits. I still like the original though. T.A. ###### From: "David Besack" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:14:53 -0400 Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 14 Sender: dbesack@shenker-lab5.team-shenker.dental.upenn.edu Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <37ae01c1.0409280218.1885f9d1@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shenker-lab5.team-shenker.dental.upenn.edu X-Trace: netnews.upenn.edu 1096395296 402405 130.91.35.95 (28 Sep 2004 18:14:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@upenn.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:14:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news2.wam.umd.edu!elk.ncren.net!nntp.upenn.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161837 > > Boromir's > > exclusion should have been obvious, even without hindsight. > > There's another problem with excluding Boromir, even with hindsight. Boromir always gets a bad rap :) He fought against wolves south of Rivendell. He carried hobbits on his shoulders through a wall of snow and ice. He fought orcs in Moria. He fought orcs near the Anduin, and even though he fell, who knows what might have happened to some other of the company if he hadn't killed so many. And coolest of all, he blew the horn of Gondor before they set out. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <4S%5d.286$TP4.88@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <1tqdnce-_94mDsTcRVn-ow@conversent.net> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:14:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.164.134 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1096406070 82.43.164.134 (Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:14:30 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:14:30 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161847 The American wrote: > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message > news:4S%5d.286$TP4.88@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk... >> jsberry wrote: >>> Who would you pick to go from Rivendell? >> >> Arwen. On her own. With a sword. And the Ring. > > (riding an Eagle?) On Bill the Pony. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 22 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:19:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.164.134 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1096406388 82.43.164.134 (Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:19:48 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:19:48 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in.ntli.net!newsrout1-win.ntli.net!ntli.net!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161850 David Besack wrote: [about Gandalf's plan to reach Mount Doom] > I always thought he might try to move east along the mountains and > enter Mordor from the east. That route looks like it doubles the length of the journey. The distance from the Black Gate round the Ered Lithui (Ash Mountains) and back to Mount Doom looks about as far as from the Shire to the Black Gate. Gollum seems to have found one of the few 'safe' routes into Mordor. The only other plan I can think of is to try and slip into Mordor in disguise as orcs (much like Sam and Frodo passed for orcs inside Mordor). Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 45 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:36:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.164.134 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1096407380 82.43.164.134 (Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:36:20 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:36:20 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.telebyte.nl!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161852 pawn wrote: > aelfwina wrote: >> But if you are insisting on playing games, > > Not even sure what that's about. It was an interesting topic for a > group that seems to become more and more mundane very year. I think the point was more that some people don't like playing this sort of game, which is fair enough. There seem to be two main ways to discuss who was in the Fellowship: (a) Think about alternative story scenarios. (b) Discuss the story roles of each member of the Fellowship. I prefer (b) myself. Though (a) can sometimes be interesting, but, IMO, less interesting than (b). The problem with approach (a) is that fairly soon you end up speculating wildly and it is similar to fan fiction. > In case > you haven't noticed, regulars are starting to welcome flame wars with > old adversaries. What the hell is with this group anyway? How many > times must a newcomer retreat with his/her tail between their legs for > bringing up something worth talking about? I think I'll quote what you said: "Not even sure what that's about." But if you really want to discuss the history of the newsgroup and how it has changed over time, I'd really be interested in that. I haven't forgotten my (probably too ambitious and now fairly dormant) attempt to get some perspective on the more-than-10-year history of these newsgroups. Why do you think the groups are becoming more mundane every year? [I obviously disagree] Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... X-Nntp-Posting-Host: qew.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2004Sep29.040944.5209@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CSLab, University of Toronto References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <37ae01c1.0409280218.1885f9d1@posting.google.com> Date: 29 Sep 2004 08:09:44 GMT Lines: 11 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!cyclone.bc.net!torn!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161871 In article <37ae01c1.0409280218.1885f9d1@posting.google.com>, Al MacLeod wrote: >There's another problem with excluding Boromir, even with hindsight. >He had been summoned here to represent the most powerful free nation >of men, What? No he hadn't. He came of his own volition, seeking the answer to a riddle in a dream. ###### From: Eric Root Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:15:23 -0400 Organization: Info Avenue Internet Services, LLC Lines: 12 Message-ID: <415A994B.2000001@swva.net> References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <4S%5d.286$TP4.88@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.37.83.149 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.infoave.net 1096456523 71137 66.37.83.149 (29 Sep 2004 11:15:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@infoave.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:15:23 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020318 Netscape6/6.2.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!canoe.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.infoave.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161873 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >jsberry wrote: > >>Who would you pick to go from Rivendell? >> > >Arwen. On her own. With a sword. And the Ring. > Try not to use hindsight, like knowing she was going to be played by Liv Tyler. ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:08:08 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <10llctuhk4j1l05@corp.supernews.com> References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 49 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161876 "pawn" wrote in message news:4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com... > aelfwina wrote: > > "jsberry" wrote in message > > > > But if you are insisting on playing games, > > Not even sure what that's about. It was an interesting topic for a > group that seems to become more and more mundane very year. In case you > haven't noticed, regulars are starting to welcome flame wars with old > adversaries. What the hell is with this group anyway? How many times > must a newcomer retreat with his/her tail between their legs for > bringing up something worth talking about? I'm sorry if my tone came out a little bit flamy. I don't think that was my intention, but I have to confess that using the term "worthless" for Merry and Pippin irritated me a bit, so I guess that showed. I sometimes feel that the hobbits don't get all the credit they deserve for being the remarkable characters that they were. The two of them accomplished a great deal more in the course of the story than just being "comic relief" or "cute". And I can't see them allowing themselves to be separated from Frodo anyway--they would have probably made an effort to follow if they had not been included. They were only separated from him at the Breaking by force, after all, and it took a troop of Orcs running in the opposite direction to accomplish that! > > > and seem to think that Boromir > > should have been excluded by hindsight, > > The OP said even without hindsight. > > > I suppose you could have had > > Faramir take the dream to Rivendell instead. That's the only change I can > > see that would make any sense. > > How does that make any more sense than including one of the most > resourceful beings in Middle Earth in the original fellowship? There were probably a great many beings who were more powerful or more resourceful. But the Wise (as in Elrond and Gandalf) were agreed that power was not necessarily an asset on this Quest. If Glorfindel had been along, the Ring might have decided he was more likely a target for temptation than Boromir. Imagine *that* scenario! > ###### From: Chris Kern Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:08:16 +0900 Organization: http://newsguy.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-109.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news4 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161878 On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:46:28 -0400, Stan Brown posted the following: >But as for Glorfindel rather than Legolas, I confess that one makes >more sense to me too. Is it possible that if Glorfindel was sent with Gandalf by the Valar (as Tolkien seems to indicate), that he would be under the same "don't help them too much" restriction as the Istari? Now, it's true that Gandalf went with them but his role seems to have been more special than that. Of course, this is all fruitless speculation since the stuff about Glorfindel's mission was written 30+ years after the scenes with Glorfindel in LotR were first put to paper. -Chris ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:00:26 -0500 From: Jeff George Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:00:26 -0400 Sender: JMG Message-ID: <6ufll0h2athcc77fcdd2e10obui7tprdjc@4ax.com> References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> <10llctuhk4j1l05@corp.supernews.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.173.1.18 X-Trace: sv3-S1bfB1qrGbJpUZX+CaisbhYRwGwh6wodOvfVUqXBZ9MxaW8FS9yejmb9IcdHYl+hWebfAqHinTyrohd!OULJgDavz6ene0uWV5VqAO/fTEO8kDZolGnVTD+YdVuBYf4B0a4n3M2qQ1DrspYTi9dl0790Vv4v!m1V+F4Xv X-Complaints-To: abuse@ptd.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@ptd.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.16 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.ptd.net!news.ptd.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161879 On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:08:08 -0500 I used my godlike powers to observe the following from "aelfwina" : > >"pawn" wrote in message >news:4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com... >> aelfwina wrote: >> > "jsberry" wrote in message >> > >> > But if you are insisting on playing games, >> >> Not even sure what that's about. It was an interesting topic for a >> group that seems to become more and more mundane very year. In case you >> haven't noticed, regulars are starting to welcome flame wars with old >> adversaries. What the hell is with this group anyway? How many times >> must a newcomer retreat with his/her tail between their legs for >> bringing up something worth talking about? > >I'm sorry if my tone came out a little bit flamy. I don't think that was my >intention, but I have to confess that using the term "worthless" for Merry >and Pippin irritated me a bit, so I guess that showed. I sometimes feel >that the hobbits don't get all the credit they deserve for being the >remarkable characters that they were. However, at the forming of the Fellowship they WERE rather worthless. No one could foresee the part that they would eventually play. -- "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." - The Who "Who? What? There's an old saying in Guatemala. I know it's in Nicaragua. Meet he new boss. We don't get fooled again in teenage wasteland." - George W. Bush ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:50:13 -0500 From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <37ae01c1.0409280218.1885f9d1@posting.google.com> <2004Sep29.040944.5209@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:50:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.203.74.66 X-Trace: sv3-6cckCVoopNGFSUtYS2XOS/+N/hB1+IwgNE70YgmzO9uvHSAXUT1pKGFoxa7ZvAc4Yu/lqi7A67UC+5j!bJaWuC60kD+Uv4PiU/cux8E6AWZjyoQR3wnsfSL+DSk89yuRKhn6jhHuFPykw1RUlMh/vckGZinn!MBJ8Cg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.16 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.conversent.net!news.conversent.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161885 "Trevor Barrie" wrote in message news:2004Sep29.040944.5209@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu... > In article <37ae01c1.0409280218.1885f9d1@posting.google.com>, > Al MacLeod wrote: > >There's another problem with excluding Boromir, even with hindsight. > >He had been summoned here to represent the most powerful free nation > >of men, > > What? No he hadn't. He came of his own volition, seeking the answer to > a riddle in a dream. > I wonder about that. Did he really get the dream? When have the Valar ever settled for second best? (assuming it was the "Powers that Be" that sent the dream and not Galadriel) He probably just said he got the dream because he knew it was significant and wanted whatever glory or adventure that it might bring him. And knowing his character, also to protect his brother. imho. T.A. ###### Message-ID: <415AE229.6070904@nospam.com> From: Chelsea Christenson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> <10llctuhk4j1l05@corp.supernews.com> <6ufll0h2athcc77fcdd2e10obui7tprdjc@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:26:17 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.2.233.234 X-Trace: news.oracle.com 1096475871 138.2.233.234 (Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:37:51 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:37:51 PDT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!HSNX.atgi.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!chekhov.conxion.net!news.oracle.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161888 Jeff George wrote: > On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:08:08 -0500 I used my godlike powers to observe > the following from "aelfwina" : >>intention, but I have to confess that using the term "worthless" for Merry >>and Pippin irritated me a bit, so I guess that showed. I sometimes feel >>that the hobbits don't get all the credit they deserve for being the >>remarkable characters that they were. > However, at the forming of the Fellowship they WERE rather worthless. > No one could foresee the part that they would eventually play. If you think of the Fellowship as some kind of special forces operation, then they're worthless. But I think Gandalf was expecting the whole business to be very hard on Frodo, and wanted him to have the support of his friends. And from the whole assemble-a-party-for-a-long-journey perspective, hobbits are not bad choices if you have to live off the land for several months. ###### From: Dirk Thierbach Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:54:01 +0200 Lines: 11 Message-ID: <20040929155401.2EF9.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> <10llctuhk4j1l05@corp.supernews.com> <6ufll0h2athcc77fcdd2e10obui7tprdjc@4ax.com> Reply-To: Dirk Thierbach X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de CooW0+JlnSz4LVSUloBTaAYoZ0RbyEhqgA/DWR5XeD4VoAjZvjM0ncnQ== X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.7.5-20040615 ("Gighay") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.26 (i686)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161892 Jeff George wrote: > However, at the forming of the Fellowship [Merry and Pippin] WERE > rather worthless. No one could foresee the part that they would > eventually play. Which is probably one of the points Tolkien wanted to make. They couldn't foresee it, but they chose them nevertheless. - Dirk ###### From: "David Besack" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:31:50 -0400 Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 18 Sender: dbesack@shenker-lab5.team-shenker.dental.upenn.edu Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> <10llctuhk4j1l05@corp.supernews.com> <6ufll0h2athcc77fcdd2e10obui7tprdjc@4ax.com> <415AE229.6070904@nospam.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shenker-lab5.team-shenker.dental.upenn.edu X-Trace: netnews.upenn.edu 1096479110 450724 130.91.35.95 (29 Sep 2004 17:31:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@upenn.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:31:50 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!diablo.voicenet.com!nntp.upenn.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161889 > > However, at the forming of the Fellowship they WERE rather worthless. > > No one could foresee the part that they would eventually play. > > If you think of the Fellowship as some kind of special forces operation, > then they're worthless. But I think Gandalf was expecting the whole > business to be very hard on Frodo, and wanted him to have the support of > his friends. And from the whole assemble-a-party-for-a-long-journey > perspective, hobbits are not bad choices if you have to live off the > land for several months. I thnk that's a good point. Frodo needed companionship, maybe, more than he needed another strong warrior. Also, Elrond couldn't exactly *command* Merry and Pippin not to go. And I guess by the time he realized they were going to go, like it or not, he figured the company was "complete". ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:14:04 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <10lm2bvsg4err33@corp.supernews.com> References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> <10llctuhk4j1l05@corp.supernews.com> <6ufll0h2athcc77fcdd2e10obui7tprdjc@4ax.com> <415AE229.6070904@nospam.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161895 "David Besack" wrote in message news:cjeri6$do54$1@netnews.upenn.edu... > > > However, at the forming of the Fellowship they WERE rather worthless. > > > No one could foresee the part that they would eventually play. > > > > If you think of the Fellowship as some kind of special forces operation, > > then they're worthless. But I think Gandalf was expecting the whole > > business to be very hard on Frodo, and wanted him to have the support of > > his friends. And from the whole assemble-a-party-for-a-long-journey > > perspective, hobbits are not bad choices if you have to live off the > > land for several months. > > I thnk that's a good point. Frodo needed companionship, maybe, more than he > needed another strong warrior. > > Also, Elrond couldn't exactly *command* Merry and Pippin not to go. And I > guess by the time he realized they were going to go, like it or not, he > figured the company was "complete". > Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! Exactly. If Elrond had not allowed them, it would have ended up at eleven because they *would* have followed. Barbara > ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> <10llctuhk4j1l05@corp.supernews.com> <6ufll0h2athcc77fcdd2e10obui7tprdjc@4ax.com> <20040929155401.2EF9.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 21 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:47:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.98.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1096490826 82.44.98.207 (Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:47:06 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:47:06 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161897 Dirk Thierbach wrote: > Jeff George wrote: > >> However, at the forming of the Fellowship [Merry and Pippin] WERE >> rather worthless. No one could foresee the part that they would >> eventually play. > > Which is probably one of the points Tolkien wanted to make. They > couldn't foresee it, but they chose them nevertheless. You could almost say that Elrond's chosing of Merry and Pippin for the Fellowship was an example of estel, and a feeling that it was the right thing to do. And the number nine was not random, it was chosen specifically to make Nine Walkers to counter the Nine Riders. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: loisillon@libertysurf.fr (loisillon) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: 29 Sep 2004 14:00:42 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.225.188.163 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1096491643 18027 127.0.0.1 (29 Sep 2004 21:00:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:00:43 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161898 jsberry@yahoo.com (jsberry) wrote in message news:<51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com>... > Who would you pick to go from Rivendell? > > I'd pick five: > Frodo (fated to carry the ring) > Sam (faithful companion, alternate ring-bearer) > Gandalf (magic, lore, diplomatic contacts, not bad with a sword) > Aragorn (ranger skills, fighting ability) > Glorfindel (can fight big-uglies like nazgul, balrogs, etc.) > > The Counsel's goals of "diversity" and an arbitrary quota of 9 were > unnecessary. Gimli's axe was better used in big battles. Boromir's > exclusion should have been obvious, even without hindsight. > Glorfindel was a better choice than Legolas; presumably Glorfindel was > the best fighter among to all the free peoples so it would be a pity > to waste him. Pippin and Merry were worthless, slowed them down, and > nearly got everybody killed. > > And why not send them to Dale with an escort of Giants (in the > mountains)Beornings (in the vale) and Woodelves (in Mirkwood), then > down the river to Emyn Muhl, etc. > > To promote the "diversity" all-for-one theme, I would have sent a > second delegation to Minas Tirith via Lorien and Rohan with Boromir, > Legolas, Gimli, Pippin, and Merry. (A split-off fellowship to MT was > an option left available to the Nine Walkers, but I would send them on > a different path, to remove deadweight from the primary mission and > draw off attention of enemies looking for "halflings.") > > Alternately, if 9 must be the quota, whom would you send? > Glorfindel rather than Boromir? > Sons of Elrond rather than Pippin & Merry? > > Obviously, Tolkien had his reasons for his Fellowship (it was a darn > good story) but if you were actually head of the Counsel, what would > you do? Try not to use hindsight, like knowing Boromir will flip, > etc. Is the question limited to the persons present at Elrond's Council? I would see well Faramir instead of Boromir. Obviously, we can wonder what would have made Boromir in Ilithien by finding Frodo. But maybe he would not have guessed that Frodon was the ring bearer ? :-) ###### Message-ID: <415B5FD2.2080005@hanneng.com> From: pawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:22:26 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.141.157.232 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cogeco.ca X-Trace: read2.cgocable.net 1096507347 24.141.157.232 (Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:22:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:22:27 EDT Organization: Cogeco Cable Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!meganewsservers.com!feeder2.on.meganewsservers.com!feed.cgocable.net!read2.cgocable.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161911 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > pawn wrote: > Why do you think the groups are becoming more mundane every year? > I would name two things (all my opinion, of course): First, the static nature of the subject matter. Most standard topics have been discussed to death. Second, some regulars in this group are of a certain brand of intellect and have limited patience for simplistic debate, and sometimes seem more concerned about presenting the aura of discussing Tolkien in high back leather chairs in the den, than just enjoying the subject matter. The two combined make it pretty tough on newcomers wanting to discuss the books for the first time. This of course feeds the status quo. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... X-Nntp-Posting-Host: qew.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2004Sep29.212257.7438@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CSLab, University of Toronto References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <37ae01c1.0409280218.1885f9d1@posting.google.com> <2004Sep29.040944.5209@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Date: 30 Sep 2004 01:22:57 GMT Lines: 17 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!atl-c02.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161914 In article , The American wrote: >I wonder about that. >Did [Boromir] really get the dream? >When have the Valar ever settled for second best? I think he almost certainly did. As I recall, in the scene at the falls, when Sam is wondering what role Boromir might have played in Frodo's disappearance, he rejects out of hand the possibility that he might be lying as out of character for Boromir. Given that Sam has had ample opportunity to get to know Boromir at this point, and I can't see any reason why he'd be overly kind to Boromir given the circumstances, I'm inclined to trust his judgement. Whether Boromir's dream was sent by the Valar or was simply the result of the his brother's dreams being on his mind is another matter, of course. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:40:16 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <37ae01c1.0409280218.1885f9d1@posting.google.com> <2004Sep29.040944.5209@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 35 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-08!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161917 "The American" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I wonder about that. >Did he really get the dream? >When have the Valar ever settled for second best? >(assuming it was the "Powers that Be" that sent the dream and not Galadriel) >He probably just said he got the dream because he knew it was significant >and wanted whatever glory or adventure that it might bring him. >And knowing his character, also to protect his brother. I used to wonder, too, whether Boromir ever actually got the dream or just said he had so that he could claim the northern journey. But I believe he did get the dream, and here's why: He held himself to a very strong moral code. I don't believe he would have lied about something like that; it would have been beneath him. And if he were lying, he would have claimed to have the dream many times, perhaps even before Faramir had it. (He might not have told that lie to his father, but he would to the Council, to enhance his own importance.) My own belief is that Faramir got the dream several times because he was the choice of the Valar (or of Eru), but Boromir got it once because it was clear Faramir wouldn't be allowed to go. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:48:37 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> <10llctuhk4j1l05@corp.supernews.com> <6ufll0h2athcc77fcdd2e10obui7tprdjc@4ax.com> <20040929155401.2EF9.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 49 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161918 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >You could almost say that Elrond's chosing of Merry and Pippin for the >Fellowship was an example of estel, and a feeling that it was the right >thing to do. I don't think Elrond _did_ choose them. Gandalf browbeat him into accepting them instead of some Elves who would have been more use and less trouble. On the other hand, Gandalf did have remarkably good hunches. When he says "I feel in my heart" it's generally wise to take his advice. Elrond surely knew this, so when I say "browbeat" I really mean that Elrond knew Gandalf's intuition was better than Elrond's logic in the matter. And of course Gandalf's intuition was right. Merry and Pippin became valuable as unintentional decoys - Saruman's Orcs snatched M&P and therefore didn't look for Sam and Frodo. Then M&P got theh Ents into the war, handing the Battle of the Hornburg and the Battle of Isengard to the good guys. After that they stopped being "baggage" and became real grown-up warriors: Merry helped kill the Witch-King, and Pippin prevented the death of Faramir. If they had not gone south, if they had been sent back to the Shire as Elrond intended, they would not have grown enough to participate in the Scouring. (I'm hazy on the chronology and IDHTBIFOM, but I think by the time of the Council the spoiling of the Shire was already underway.) >And the number nine was not random, it was chosen >specifically to make Nine Walkers to counter the Nine Riders. Not random, but arbitrary. There was no story-internal reason other than a sort of neat numerical coincidence to make the two numbers the same. I believe the story-external reason was to provide the kind of symmetry you repeat from Elrond; but I've never found it convincing. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:51:20 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!63.223.20.72.MISMATCH!sjc1.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161921 "Chris Kern" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Is it possible that if Glorfindel was sent with Gandalf by the Valar >(as Tolkien seems to indicate), that he would be under the same "don't >help them too much" restriction as the Istari? This is just speculation, but I don't think he was under that kind of restriction. He can't have been _much_ more powerful than Galadriel and Elrond, if at all; and they were under no restrictions. Gandalf told Frodo in "Many Meetings" II 1 that he had seen Glorfindel "as he is upon the other side", IIRC. From that I infer that Glorfindel, unlike Gandalf, was not masking his power or his nature. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: north5@gmail.com (Al MacLeod) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: 30 Sep 2004 03:50:32 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <37ae01c1.0409300250.3b98f37a@posting.google.com> References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <37ae01c1.0409280218.1885f9d1@posting.google.com> <2004Sep29.040944.5209@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.232.123.113 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1096541432 12416 127.0.0.1 (30 Sep 2004 10:50:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:50:32 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161933 tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) wrote in message news:<2004Sep29.040944.5209@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>... > In article <37ae01c1.0409280218.1885f9d1@posting.google.com>, > Al MacLeod wrote: > >There's another problem with excluding Boromir, even with hindsight. > >He had been summoned here to represent the most powerful free nation > >of men, > > What? No he hadn't. He came of his own volition, seeking the answer to > a riddle in a dream. OK, so it depends on your definition of "summoned". ;-) Poor choice of words, perhaps. Regardless, he set out after consultation with his father and brother, and as heir of the Steward was certainly a representative of Gondor. Al .-. ###### From: "Hellekin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:14:19 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-156-26-142.range81-156.btcentralplus.com X-Trace: titan.btinternet.com 1096546459 28434 81.156.26.142 (30 Sep 2004 12:14:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:14:19 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!carbon.eu.sun.com!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161938 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1bc53eb332e81d2298ca5c@news.odyssey.net... (snipped) > This is just speculation, but I don't think he was under that kind > of restriction. He can't have been _much_ more powerful than > Galadriel and Elrond, if at all; and they were under no > restrictions. I was wondering what is meant by "power" in this context (other than mere fighting prowess)? Also it's worth noting that (unlike Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel) Glorfindel wasn't a bearer of a ring of power. ###### From: Chris Kern Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:58:27 +0900 Organization: http://newsguy.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-322.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.esat.net!HSNX.atgi.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news4 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161942 On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:14:19 +0000 (UTC), "Hellekin" posted the following: >"Stan Brown" wrote in message >news:MPG.1bc53eb332e81d2298ca5c@news.odyssey.net... > >(snipped) > >> This is just speculation, but I don't think he was under that kind >> of restriction. He can't have been _much_ more powerful than >> Galadriel and Elrond, if at all; and they were under no >> restrictions. > >I was wondering what is meant by "power" in this context (other than mere >fighting prowess)? > >Also it's worth noting that (unlike Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel) >Glorfindel wasn't a bearer of a ring of power. In a very late essay (the same place we get the "two Glorfindels are the same"), Tolkien says that Glorfindel after his rebirth he was almost equivalent in "stature" to a Maiar. -Chris ###### Message-ID: <415C4764.A4F9B8DC@ecisys.com> From: John X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <4S%5d.286$TP4.88@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <415A994B.2000001@swva.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:50:28 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 147.18.228.116 X-Complaints-To: news@ext.ray.com X-Trace: dfw-service2.ext.ray.com 1096566628 147.18.228.116 (Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:50:28 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:50:28 CDT Organization: Raytheon Company Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!151.164.30.34!cyclone.swbell.net!bos-service1.raytheon.com!dfw-service2.ext.ray.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161951 > > >Arwen. On her own. With a sword. And the Ring. > > > Try not to use hindsight, like knowing she was going to be played by Liv > Tyler. "Hindsight"!!!! ##### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <37ae01c1.0409280218.1885f9d1@posting.google.com> <2004Sep29.040944.5209@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <37ae01c1.0409300250.3b98f37a@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 37 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:40:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.98.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1096569610 82.44.98.207 (Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:40:10 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:40:10 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.zanker.org!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161959 Al MacLeod wrote: > tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) wrote in message > news:<2004Sep29.040944.5209@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>... >> In article <37ae01c1.0409280218.1885f9d1@posting.google.com>, >> Al MacLeod wrote: >>> There's another problem with excluding Boromir, even with hindsight. >>> He had been summoned here to represent the most powerful free nation >>> of men, >> >> What? No he hadn't. He came of his own volition, seeking the answer >> to a riddle in a dream. > > OK, so it depends on your definition of "summoned". ;-) And Elrond himself said this of the Council: "That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say. though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world." (The Council of Elrond) So saying Boromir was summoned is not too far from the truth. You just need to leave it vague about who was doing the summoning. You could say that the voice from the West summoned Boromir! "In that dream I thought the eastern sky grew dark and there was a growing thunder, but in the West a pale light lingered, and out of it I heard a voice, remote but clear..." (The Council of Elrond) Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> <10llctuhk4j1l05@corp.supernews.com> <6ufll0h2athcc77fcdd2e10obui7tprdjc@4ax.com> <20040929155401.2EF9.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 49 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:53:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.98.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1096570406 82.44.98.207 (Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:53:26 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:53:26 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161963 Stan Brown wrote: > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> You could almost say that Elrond's chosing of Merry and Pippin for >> the Fellowship was an example of estel, and a feeling that it was >> the right thing to do. > > I don't think Elrond _did_ choose them. Gandalf browbeat him into > accepting them instead of some Elves who would have been more use > and less trouble. You are right. I shouldn't have used the word 'choose' for what Elrond was doing when he formed the Fellowship. He was really only asking for people to agree to go with Frodo. He does say he will "choose" companions for Frodo, but these companions are not bound to Frodo's quest. Gandalf's advice is good, but I think Elrond really relents when he discovers that Pippin and Merry are determined to go. He would not stand in their way. >> And the number nine was not random, it was chosen >> specifically to make Nine Walkers to counter the Nine Riders. > > Not random, but arbitrary. There was no story-internal reason other > than a sort of neat numerical coincidence to make the two numbers > the same. I believe the story-external reason was to provide the > kind of symmetry you repeat from Elrond; but I've never found it > convincing. Well, the number had to be small. Gandalf, Aragorn and the four hobbits are essential to the story. Boromir is needed for more plot elements. And I guess Tolkien felt he had to have a dwarf and elf in the Fellowship. I wonder if the Nazgul were made to be nine to fit the Fellowship, or the other way around (from a story-external point of view). The answer will be in the HoME drafts. Does anyone know whether the numbers of people in the Fellowship varied, and if the number of Nazgul varied? And also when was the earliest version of the Ring Verse written? That last one is important because the 3, 7, 9 Rings in the Ring Verse might be inspired by mythology, hence the Nine Nazgul. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: Matthew Woodcraft Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: 30 Sep 2004 21:00:36 +0100 (BST) Organization: Linux Unlimited Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <20040929155401.2EF9.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: rapun.sel.cam.ac.uk Originator: mattheww@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([193.201.200.170]) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.zanker.org!news.clara.net!wagner.news.clara.net!193.60.199.18.MISMATCH!feed2.jnfs.ja.net!jnfs.ja.net!gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk!news.cam.ac.uk!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!news.cam.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161971 Stan Brown wrote: >I don't think Elrond _did_ choose them. Gandalf browbeat him into >accepting them instead of some Elves who would have been more use >and less trouble. I have a sneaking suspicion that Elrond agreed all along that Merry and Pippin should go, and the conversation we hear is a way of giving them a chance to go home with honour if they choose to. -M- ###### From: Matthew Woodcraft Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: 30 Sep 2004 21:11:38 +0100 (BST) Organization: Linux Unlimited Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <2004Sep29.040944.5209@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rapun.sel.cam.ac.uk Originator: mattheww@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([193.201.200.170]) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.zanker.org!news.clara.net!wagner.news.clara.net!193.60.199.18.MISMATCH!feed2.jnfs.ja.net!jnfs.ja.net!gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk!news.cam.ac.uk!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!news.cam.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161972 Stan Brown wrote: >My own belief is that Faramir got the dream several times because he >was the choice of the Valar (or of Eru), but Boromir got it once >because it was clear Faramir wouldn't be allowed to go. I think maybe the idea is that Boromir is being deliberately offered the choice of giving way to Faramir. Though choosing to go himself was not in itself wrong, he passed up a chance to 'take the higher road'. -M- ###### From: Matthew Woodcraft Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: 30 Sep 2004 21:18:52 +0100 (BST) Organization: Linux Unlimited Lines: 25 Message-ID: <4tc*lQXvq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rapun.sel.cam.ac.uk Originator: mattheww@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([193.201.200.170]) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.zanker.org!news.clara.net!wagner.news.clara.net!193.60.199.18.MISMATCH!feed2.jnfs.ja.net!jnfs.ja.net!gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk!news.cam.ac.uk!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!news.cam.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161973 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >Well, the number had to be small. Gandalf, Aragorn and the four hobbits >are essential to the story. Boromir is needed for more plot elements. >And I guess Tolkien felt he had to have a dwarf and elf in the >Fellowship. I wonder if the Nazgul were made to be nine to fit the >Fellowship, or the other way around (from a story-external point of >view). > >The answer will be in the HoME drafts. Does anyone know whether the >numbers of people in the Fellowship varied, and if the number of Nazgul >varied? And also when was the earliest version of the Ring Verse >written? That last one is important because the 3, 7, 9 Rings in the >Ring Verse might be inspired by mythology, hence the Nine Nazgul. If I remember right, when the chapters after leaving Rivendell were first written Legolas and Gimli weren't in the fellowship (and Strider was still a hobbit). Remember the line <>, which the film unsurprisingly transferred from Frodo to Gimli? When that scene was first written, there was no Gimli there to say it, and Frodo kept the line when he was introduced. -M- ###### From: David Besack Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:35:10 -0400 Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 9 Sender: dbesack@pcp08860371pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <20040929155401.2EF9.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: pcp08860371pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: netnews.upenn.edu 1096580110 7183 68.32.206.80 (30 Sep 2004 21:35:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@upenn.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:35:10 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Macintosh/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!elk.ncren.net!nntp.upenn.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161977 > I have a sneaking suspicion that Elrond agreed all along that Merry and > Pippin should go, and the conversation we hear is a way of giving them > a chance to go home with honour if they choose to. That's an interesting perspective, and something I hadn't thought of. But it does remind me of later when he argues with Gimli about whether or not the company should swear to go to Mt. Doom, and decides pretty much the same thing - that no oath should be taken so if people want, they too can go home with honor. ###### Reply-To: "Raven" From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <4S%5d.286$TP4.88@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <415A994B.2000001@swva.net> <415C4764.A4F9B8DC@ecisys.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 23:42:22 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1096583976 195.82.196.86 (Fri, 01 Oct 2004 00:39:36 CEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 00:39:36 CEST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!uio.no!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161984 "John" skrev i en meddelelse news:415C4764.A4F9B8DC@ecisys.com... [Eric Root:] > > Try not to use hindsight, like knowing she was going to be played by Liv > > Tyler. > "Hindsight"!!!! Yes, hindsight is best if she's wearing tight jeans or a hip-hugging dress, innit? Karasu. ###### From: "Hellekin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:21:09 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-154-88-227.range81-154.btcentralplus.com X-Trace: titan.btinternet.com 1096582869 25800 81.154.88.227 (30 Sep 2004 22:21:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:21:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!news-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161982 "Chris Kern" wrote in message news:cl0ol01336ccupm11edkhcp0ek92sq5q7e@4ax.com... > In a very late essay (the same place we get the "two Glorfindels are > the same"), Tolkien says that Glorfindel after his rebirth he was > almost equivalent in "stature" to a Maiar. Ah I see... I couldn't recall that. I'm always asking myself this "power" question when reading and re-reading Tolkien. It is a pretty central theme in much of what he wrote... but to me is often also a strangely elusive concept to get to grips with in the Tolkien context. Perhaps in any context... ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:17:32 -0500 From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <37ae01c1.0409280218.1885f9d1@posting.google.com> <2004Sep29.040944.5209@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:22:02 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.171.253.214 X-Trace: sv3-6pcjpQ1Q5dBr2LRuW6p330QGW3JXzpM2cB+kuPLV6/oH12qUCyOzMjJ269L68pjYciJX+YOc2vUMcGR!O03q6N2uJfKqEVmPgsoInRADFcia37ia4HQgImYm9dvuqL4/ITEGpU9ON8e2ZRJ403cK+SXJfgaB!WmqDw0WXcDjrMHGuTaY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@adelphia.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: copyright@adelphia.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.16 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.adelphia.com!news.adelphia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161998 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1bc53c1b432fe96698ca5a@news.odyssey.net... > "The American" wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >I wonder about that. > >Did he really get the dream? > >When have the Valar ever settled for second best? > >(assuming it was the "Powers that Be" that sent the dream and not Galadriel) > >He probably just said he got the dream because he knew it was significant > >and wanted whatever glory or adventure that it might bring him. > >And knowing his character, also to protect his brother. > > I used to wonder, too, whether Boromir ever actually got the dream > or just said he had so that he could claim the northern journey. > > But I believe he did get the dream, and here's why: He held himself > to a very strong moral code. I don't believe he would have lied > about something like that; it would have been beneath him. > Yes. I think you're right. T.A. ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: 1 Oct 2004 14:15:05 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <4158C92D.6080903@porterhouse.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de Cu8C/2Ph8Kx8XTq+9bwEYQKy5icdN9mKkJcC8k0w3cBr3UaQt2 User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162019 On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 22:15:09 -0400, pawn wrote: > > For another, Boromir had already shown signs in the Council of falling > under the Ring's influence (unless desiring the Ring's power from th > moment he first saw it wasn't a sign). I don't think that first outburst about using the Ring would necessarily have been a sign of Boromir's later fall. Clearly the questioned had to be asked and the point made that the Ring was a gravest threat to those most powerful enemies of Sauron. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com "My illness is due to my doctor's insistence that I drink milk, a whitish fluid they force down helpless babies." - WC Fields ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: 1 Oct 2004 14:18:54 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de Gz4heNmt/wLYRrIEH3qxngtfKw50LXJwA5AmDUtiF6bKFdhTgr User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162020 On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:21:09 +0000 (UTC), Hellekin wrote: > > "Chris Kern" wrote in message > news:cl0ol01336ccupm11edkhcp0ek92sq5q7e@4ax.com... > >> In a very late essay (the same place we get the "two Glorfindels are >> the same"), Tolkien says that Glorfindel after his rebirth he was >> almost equivalent in "stature" to a Maiar. > > Ah I see... I couldn't recall that. I'm always asking myself this "power" > question when reading and re-reading Tolkien. It is a pretty central theme > in much of what he wrote... but to me is often also a strangely elusive > concept to get to grips with in the Tolkien context. > > Perhaps in any context... I think it's elusive because it has no single meaning. What we're really talking about are the gifts that Eru gave the incarnates in his world. Was Sauron more powerful than Gandalf? Probably in sheer raw ability to create and destroy things, I don't think there's any doubt. But if we talk of wisdom, well Olorin the Maia was said to be the wisest. Perhaps the only being in all of Tolkien's mythos that I would consider powerful in every sense of the word was Melkor himself, and that's because he shared a part in all the gifts of the Ainur. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com "My illness is due to my doctor's insistence that I drink milk, a whitish fluid they force down helpless babies." - WC Fields ###### From: "John Jones" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 21:02:02 +0100 Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <4S%5d.286$TP4.88@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <415A994B.2000001@swva.net> <415C4764.A4F9B8DC@ecisys.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.137.66.29 X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 1096724275 8567 62.137.66.29 (2 Oct 2004 13:37:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Oct 2004 13:37:55 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162104 "Raven" wrote in message news:IW%6d.1512$mb4.1086@news.get2net.dk... > "John" skrev i en meddelelse > news:415C4764.A4F9B8DC@ecisys.com... > > [Eric Root:] > > > Try not to use hindsight, like knowing she was going to be played by Liv > > > Tyler. > > > "Hindsight"!!!! > > Yes, hindsight is best if she's wearing tight jeans or a hip-hugging > dress, innit? > You didn't like the see-through gown? ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... X-Nntp-Posting-Host: qew.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2004Oct1.161821.22690@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CSLab, University of Toronto References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <4tc*lQXvq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> Date: 1 Oct 2004 20:18:21 GMT Lines: 12 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!news.alt.net!cyclone.bc.net!torn!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162044 In article <4tc*lQXvq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Matthew Woodcraft wrote: >Remember the line <>, which the >film unsurprisingly transferred from Frodo to Gimli? When that scene >was first written, there was no Gimli there to say it, and Frodo kept >the line when he was introduced. Gandalf says that line in the film, and I'm pretty sure it was Gandalf in the book too, though my copy of the books is currently not available to check. ###### From: Matthew Woodcraft Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: 01 Oct 2004 22:26:41 +0100 (BST) Organization: Linux Unlimited Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <4tc*lQXvq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> <2004Oct1.161821.22690@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rapun.sel.cam.ac.uk Originator: mattheww@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([193.201.200.170]) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.zanker.org!news.clara.net!wagner.news.clara.net!193.60.199.18.MISMATCH!feed2.jnfs.ja.net!jnfs.ja.net!gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk!news.cam.ac.uk!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!news.cam.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162053 Trevor Barrie wrote: >Matthew Woodcraft wrote: >>Remember the line <>, which the >>film unsurprisingly transferred from Frodo to Gimli? When that scene >>was first written, there was no Gimli there to say it, and Frodo kept >>the line when he was introduced. > >Gandalf says that line in the film, and I'm pretty sure it was Gandalf >in the book too, though my copy of the books is currently not available >to check. Oh, it's certainly a Frodo line in the book. I suppose I should be thankful that the films aren't working their way too deeply into my head :-). The BBC gave it to Gandalf too. Perhaps because it seems odd to suggest that Frodo would be the one who thought most about the matter. -M- ###### From: "Shanahan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 20:16:11 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 106 Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> <10llctuhk4j1l05@corp.supernews.com> <6ufll0h2athcc77fcdd2e10obui7tprdjc@4ax.com> <20040929155401.2EF9.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-752.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.moat.net!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162069 Christopher Kreuzer creatively typed: > Stan Brown wrote: > > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote: > > > And the number nine was not random, it was chosen > > > specifically to make Nine Walkers to counter the Nine Riders. > > > > Not random, but arbitrary. There was no story-internal reason > > other than a sort of neat numerical coincidence to make the > > two numbers the same. I believe the story-external reason was > > to provide the kind of symmetry you repeat from Elrond; but > > I've never found it convincing. > > Well, the number had to be small. Gandalf, Aragorn and the four > hobbits are essential to the story. Boromir is needed for more > plot elements. And I guess Tolkien felt he had to have a dwarf > and elf in the Fellowship. I wonder if the Nazgul were made to > be nine to fit the Fellowship, or the other way around (from a > story-external point of view). > > The answer will be in the HoME drafts. Does anyone know whether > the numbers of people in the Fellowship varied, and if the > number of Nazgul varied? And also when was the earliest version > of the Ring Verse written? That last one is important because > the 3, 7, 9 Rings in the Ring Verse might be inspired by > mythology, hence the Nine Nazgul. I did a bit of poking around in "The Return of the Shadow", and these questions are very interrelated, as you might expect. The exact dating of the LotR drafts is apparently very uncertain; Christopher uses the terms Phase I/II/III and The Story Continued to denote the "waves of composition" in which his father wrote. It's hard to tell where they begin and break off, and it's different for each chapter, so I'll advance only a tentative theory that Phase II ended at the end of 1938, and Phase III in August 1939. At any rate, it seems pretty clear that they are sequential!! Thank god/dess. *Very* early drafts tend to be lost, because they were pencil written over in ink, and so illegible. OK, on to the fun stuff. The Ring Verse was born nearly as it survived, except for the numbers changing. When it was first written, T. was still playing with the idea of there being "elf-wraiths" created by the rings. So elves were as susceptible as men to their effects. A first draft has 9 rings for the elves and 3 for men, a second 3 for elves and 12 for men, but Tolkien settled on 3 for elves and 9 for men fairly soon. This happened when he was developing the idea of The Three Rings as being somehow set apart from the 'lesser' rings. Here's a taste of two early versions: Nine for the Elven-kings under moon and star, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Three for Mortal Men that wander far... Twelve for Mortal Men doomed to die, Nine for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Three for the Elven-kings of earth, sea, and sky... These belong to Phase I; the number nine was fixed fairly early, in Phase II, for the rings and thus for the Nazgûl. The same changes are reflected in the scene at the Ford of Bruinen: first there are 12 horsemen chasing Bingo (Frodo), then 9. Unfortunately (I like your theory that the number of Nazgûl was determined by the number of the Fellowship! It makes me happy symbolically and metaphorically), that doesn't seem to be the case. Tolkien didn't get to choosing the Fellowship until Phase III of composition. Early draft from Ph.III: "Sam subsided, but whispered to Frodo: 'How far is this Mountain? A nice pickle we have landed ourselves in, Mr. Frodo!' 'Taking care of hobbits is not a task that everyone would like,' said Gandalf, 'but I am used to it. I suggest Frodo and his Sam, Merry, Faramond [Pippin], and myself. That is five. And Glorfindel, if he will come [...] That is six.' 'And Trotter [Strider]!' said Peregrin from the corner. 'That is seven, and a fitting number.' An earlier draft than this (Ph.II?) had: Gandalf, Trotter, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Folco, Odo, Glorfindel, Burin son of Balin. Then the above: Gandalf, Trotter, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Faramond, Glorfindel. Then Tolkien thought the company should consist only of hobbits (*love* this idea!) Glorfindel is dropped with no explanation. Boromir is added because of the 'he's a noble warrior, and it's on his way home' logic. The addition of Gimli and Legolas is not mentioned by Christopher, so I'm assuming it wasn't in the source papers he had. Now, all of that bloody detail aside, it seems nonetheless obvious to me that the Nine Walkers were indeed chosen to "be set against the Nine Riders who are evil." You know, symbolism and stuff. Fantasy story and stuff. Y'know. Besides, Elrond says it. How much more do you want? Ciaran S. -- In the prevailing climate of street-smart irony and all manner of gleeful post-modern mayhem, few will champion a tale of wonder, laced with quasi-medieval moralizing, and narrated with nineteenth-century earnestness. - Robert Di Napoli ###### From: Beta Aquilae Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 14:31:47 +0300 Organization: University of Turku Lines: 37 Message-ID: <415E91A3.5080907@yahoo.co.uk> References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: elisabeth.sby.abo.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: bowmore.utu.fi 1096716651 33671 130.232.137.174 (2 Oct 2004 11:30:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@utu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 11:30:51 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!bowmore.utu.fi!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162097 Stan Brown wrote: > But as for Glorfindel rather than Legolas, I confess that one makes > more sense to me too. > I wonder. One of the unforeseen outcomes of the Fellowship was the friendship that was born between Legolas and Gimli -- fairly low-priority in the light of the primary mission to destroy the Ring, but very important in the post-war society. The relationships between (non-Noldorian) Elves and Dwarves being as chilly as they were, I think it makes sense to take fairly young representatives, not yet set in their ways and able to cooperate better than, say, Glorfindel and Glóin, which could have caused the fellowship to splinter even more. Tolkien doesn't write it outright, but I think that the relations between Men, Dwarves and Elves were at their most relaxed in the Dale-Mt Erebor-Mirkwood region after the Battle of the Five Armies. Then there's Glorfindel's presence in the Force (sorry, SW spillover). Frodo is able to sense his spiritual presence at the Ford of Bruinen, and the Nazgûl could probably do so as well. Thus, IMO, Glorfindel as one if the Nine Walkers might have alerted Sauron to what was going on and put him on his guard too soon. Using the perspective of Ineffable Providence again, even the inclusion of Boromir makes sense. His madness was the only thing strong enough to make Frodo conquer his fear and set out for Mordor. Though I agree that it does smell "plot device" from afar, and it isn't very nice of Providence to cast someone in the role of victim. -- "I do not know how many of us it will take. But we must dream it, and if enough of us dream it, then it will happen... Dreams change the world." --Neil Gaiman, A Dream of A Thousand Cats ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> <10llctuhk4j1l05@corp.supernews.com> <6ufll0h2athcc77fcdd2e10obui7tprdjc@4ax.com> <20040929155401.2EF9.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 147 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:05:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.98.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1096718703 82.44.98.207 (Sat, 02 Oct 2004 13:05:03 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 13:05:03 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-in.ntli.net!newsrout1-win.ntli.net!ntli.net!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162098 Shanahan wrote: > Christopher Kreuzer creatively typed: >> The answer will be in the HoME drafts. Does anyone know whether >> the numbers of people in the Fellowship varied, and if the >> number of Nazgul varied? And also when was the earliest version >> of the Ring Verse written? That last one is important because >> the 3, 7, 9 Rings in the Ring Verse might be inspired by >> mythology, hence the Nine Nazgul. > > I did a bit of poking around in "The Return of the Shadow Thanks. > OK, on to the fun stuff. The Ring Verse was born nearly as it > survived, except for the numbers changing. Aha! > When it was first > written, T. was still playing with the idea of there being > "elf-wraiths" created by the rings. That might have been interesting... [early Ring Verses] > Nine for the Elven-kings under moon and star, > Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, > Three for Mortal Men that wander far... "that wander far"?? I think I can see why this didn't survive! > Twelve for Mortal Men doomed to die That's better!! > Nine for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, > Three for the Elven-kings of earth, sea, and sky... > > These belong to Phase I; the number nine was fixed fairly early, in > Phase II, for the rings and thus for the Nazgûl. The same changes > are reflected in the scene at the Ford of Bruinen: first there are > 12 horsemen chasing Bingo (Frodo), then 9. I think (not sure which draft you are looking at) that Bingo/Frodo looked behind him and saw "as many as twelve" (crossed out and replaced by "at least seven"). > Unfortunately (I like your theory that the number of Nazgûl was > determined by the number of the Fellowship! It makes me happy > symbolically and metaphorically) Oh well! > that doesn't seem to be the > case. Tolkien didn't get to choosing the Fellowship until Phase > III of composition. Early draft from Ph.III: Thanks for this as well! > "Sam subsided, but whispered to Frodo: 'How far is this Mountain? A > nice pickle we have landed ourselves in, Mr. Frodo!' > 'Taking care of hobbits is not a task that everyone would > like,' said Gandalf, 'but I am used to it. I suggest Frodo and his > Sam, Merry, Faramond [Pippin], and myself. That is five. And > Glorfindel, if he will come [...] That is six.' Aha! Glorfindel was an early contender for the Fellowship!! I am assuming that this is not a hobbit named Glorfindel.... :-) > 'And Trotter [Strider]!' said Peregrin from the corner. 'That > is seven, and a fitting number.' Indeed. That is _so_ interesting. That Tolkien put those words into the mouth of one of his characters: "seven [is] a fitting number". Thanks a lot for finding this. I will just mention in passing that among the many others references to numbers (I stopped posting them until I've written the whole theory properly), I found one for the number seven. Apparantly, hobbit wills had to have seven witness signatures!! (It's in the first chapter where the Sackville-Bagginses try to contest Bilbo's will, but everything has been properly done). > An earlier draft than this (Ph.II?) had: Gandalf, Trotter, Frodo, > Sam, Merry, Folco, Odo, Glorfindel, Burin son of Balin. That is nine. > Then the above: Gandalf, Trotter, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Faramond, > Glorfindel. Seven. > Then Tolkien thought the company should consist only of hobbits > (*love* this idea!) Do you know where in Return of the Shadow this is exactly? I agree, it is a great idea! How many hobbits does it take to destroy a Ring of Power? > Glorfindel is dropped with no explanation. > Boromir is added because of the 'he's a noble warrior, and it's on > his way home' logic. > The addition of Gimli and Legolas is not mentioned by Christopher, > so I'm assuming it wasn't in the source papers he had. There does seem to be a proto-Gimli in Burin son of Balin. And though Glorfindel is dropped, Legolas is obviously the token Elf used to replace him later! > Now, all of that bloody detail aside, it seems nonetheless obvious > to me that the Nine Walkers were indeed chosen to "be set against > the Nine Riders who are evil." You know, symbolism and stuff. > Fantasy story and stuff. Y'know. Besides, Elrond says it. How > much more do you want? Well, it would be nice to know when Elrond's bit first appeared. But failing that, the real question is, I think, whether Tolkien (while trying out the different numbers for the Fellowship) suddenly thought of finding nine people to fit the Nine Riders symbolism, OR, whether he picked nine and then realised later that he had matched the numbers. The latter one sounds so implausible that I think it must have been the former: Tolkien was consciously trying to make the Fellowship fit one of the 'special' numbers (as used in the Ring Verse). This is seen in the way the numbers were 9 or 7 from the earliest drafts. Hmm. Thanks again for those references. I should just say that I am intending to write up all this Numbers stuff properly (sometime). I'll be sure to credit the ideas and references where I remember, and put a copy up on a webpage somewhere. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Shanahan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 22:49:33 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 87 Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> <10lh30n7326csc4@corp.supernews.com> <4158C324.6070108@porterhouse.com> <10llctuhk4j1l05@corp.supernews.com> <6ufll0h2athcc77fcdd2e10obui7tprdjc@4ax.com> <20040929155401.2EF9.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-216.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.moat.net!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162166 Christopher Kreuzer creatively typed: > Shanahan wrote: > > Christopher Kreuzer creatively > > typed: > > These belong to Phase I; the number nine was fixed fairly > > early, in Phase II, for the rings and thus for the Nazgûl. > > The same changes are reflected in the scene at the Ford of > > Bruinen: first there are 12 horsemen chasing Bingo (Frodo), > > then 9. > > I think (not sure which draft you are looking at) that > Bingo/Frodo looked behind him and saw "as many as twelve" > (crossed out and replaced by "at least seven"). You're quite right. I cut that for brevity's sake (how ironical), but I really shouldn't have. > Aha! Glorfindel was an early contender for the Fellowship!! I am > assuming that this is not a hobbit named Glorfindel.... :-) > > 'And Trotter [Strider]!' said Peregrin from the corner. > > 'That is seven, and a fitting number.' > > Indeed. That is _so_ interesting. That Tolkien put those words > into the mouth of one of his characters: > "seven [is] a fitting number". Yes, I agree. The power of seven and three seem to be very basic and widespread in mythology and the 'Cauldron of Story'. It's a bit harder to make a case for nine, and that is also interesting, because T. seems to accord it some significance. Three threes, perhaps. > Thanks a lot for finding this. I will just mention in passing > that among the many others references to numbers (I stopped > posting them until I've written the whole theory properly), I > found one for the number seven. > Apparantly, hobbit wills had to have seven witness signatures!! In red ink! > > Then Tolkien thought the company should consist only of hobbits > > (*love* this idea!) > > Do you know where in Return of the Shadow this is exactly? I > agree, it is a great idea! How many hobbits does it take to > destroy a Ring of Power? (Four or five pages back from the end of the section titled 'In the House of Elrond.') I think it would all have worked out much better that way! Aragorn would have been free to fulfill his destiny, Boromir would live, and the only problem would be providing enough lembas for four hobbits to eat on the trek to Mordor... Galadriel would have had to provide a magic pony to carry the lembas. > The latter one sounds so implausible that I think it must have > been the former: Tolkien was consciously trying to make the > Fellowship fit one of the 'special' numbers (as used in the Ring > Verse). This is seen in the way the numbers were 9 or 7 from the > earliest drafts. It seems so. > Hmm. Thanks again for those references. I should just say that I > am intending to write up all this Numbers stuff properly > (sometime). I'll be sure to credit the ideas and references > where I remember, and put a copy up on a webpage somewhere. I've got a couple of 'threes' for Book IV, but they're character-related rather than concrete objects. Ciaran S. -- "There is no human situation so miserable that it cannot be made worse by the presence of a policeman." - brendan behan ###### From: Belba Grubb From Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:38:14 -0500 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 51 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162522 On 27 Sep 2004 11:37:41 -0700, jsberry@yahoo.com (jsberry) wrote: >Who would you pick to go from Rivendell? For some, there was no choice to make: -- Frodo (Ringbearer) -- Sam (impossible to separate from Frodo) -- Aragorn (to go and claim the Kingship); -- Boromir (son and heir of the Steward of Gondor); -- Gandalf (mover and shaker, although he made it sound a little iffy in his conversation with the hobbits shortly after the Council) Let's imagine taking Gandalf out of the picture to allow him the freedom to act as a "wildcard" and be in reserve while the Fellowship undertook the Quest. That leaves four. I like the idea of there being nine in the company, so we need five more. But first we need a leader, and in considering that we are forced in Rivendell to make the decision that they actually faced at Parth Galen: to go to Mordor or to Minas Tirith. Without Gandalf, the two natural leaders would be Aragorn and Frodo (as Ringbearer). Frodo obviously could not lead the company on such a quest; that would leave Aragorn, but would commit him to going to Mordor rather than to Minas Tirith, his obvious destination. So Gandalf, after all, has to come along to be leader. (This also shows the blow to the whole Quest his fall in Moria caused.) We now have five and need four more. Were I in Elrond's place, I would have chosen Elladan and Elrohir, and accompanying them Glorfindel for the Noldor and Legolas for the Sindar. Doughty fighters all, and that would have been the basis of my decision as I would had lacked the wisdom to open the fellowship up to members of all races who were threatened (thereby getting Gimli on board). Faced with Pippin's rebellion, I probably would have done as Elrond did and allow him and Merry to go, this in the places of my two sons, who could then play the role of "wild cards" and eventually accompany the Dunedain of the north to the inevitable battle in the South. >And why not send them to Dale with an escort of Giants (in the >mountains)Beornings (in the vale) and Woodelves (in Mirkwood), then >down the river to Emyn Muhl, etc. Because of the corruption and trouble the Ring would cause. Somebody would be tempted to control a stone giant through the Ring; or a Beorning might wish to use the Ring to become as great a skin-changer as was Beorn, or greater; Thranduil might take it into his head to use the Ring to clear Mirkwood of the evil still emanating from Dol Guldur; etc. And that's assuming that the Orcs didn't attack the convoy along the way and that Sauron missed them completely. Barb ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <51431c0.0409271037.1b401317@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 26 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 23:56:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.102.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1097452578 82.44.102.80 (Mon, 11 Oct 2004 00:56:18 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 00:56:18 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162528 Belba Grubb From Stock wrote: > On 27 Sep 2004 11:37:41 -0700, jsberry@yahoo.com (jsberry) wrote: >> And why not send them to Dale with an escort of Giants (in the >> mountains)Beornings (in the vale) and Woodelves (in Mirkwood), then >> down the river to Emyn Muhl, etc. > > Because of the corruption and trouble the Ring would cause. Better argument than that. Dale is on a river, but not a river that goes to Emyn Muil. Look at the map. Having said that, I think the idea of going over the High Pass was considered and rejected, but can't remember the reference. In any case, the idea was to get to Lorien, not Mirkwood. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### Lines: 51 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 11 Oct 2004 20:22:24 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Message-ID: <20041011162224.28660.00000600@mb-m05.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.giganews.com.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162574 >>> And why not send them to Dale with an escort of Giants (in the >>> mountains)Beornings (in the vale) and Woodelves (in Mirkwood), then >>> down the river to Emyn Muhl, etc. >> >> Because of the corruption and trouble the Ring would cause. > > > >Better argument than that. > >Dale is on a river, but not a river that goes to Emyn Muil. Look at the >map. Having said that, I think the idea of going over the High Pass was >considered and rejected, but can't remember the reference. It was snowed in by that point. That is why they went south an hoped to cross the Misty's further down. I think Elrond made a mistake by keeping the Ring in Rivendell for so long. They knew the Nine were unhorsed so he should have struck while the iron was hot and gotten the Ring over the Misty's and down to Lorien as quickly as possible. By waiting for so long, the High Pass was snowed in. > In any case, >the idea was to get to Lorien, not Mirkwood. This leads back to the age old question: how was Gandald originally going to get into Mordor. The Black Gate seems unlikely, as does sneaking by Minas Morgul. And clearly he didn't like the route through Cirith Ungol either. Possibly there are secret passes only Gandalf or Aragorn may have known about, but the only other known route to the reader is to take the long way around and walk into Mordor from the back. In that scenario, going via the Dale route the OP mention has some value. Or something completely different: taking the Ring to the Havens and then by ship down to Coast to Dol Amroth or Pelargir. I never really understood the aversion to taking the Ring to the Havens. Again, the Nine were unhorsed and Sauron would have no way of knowing which way the Ring was going or even if it had moved out of Rivendell. As it was, the only reason Sauron knew of the Ring's movement was through Saruman and his crebain. While it is true that Umbar's fleet attacked and took Pelargir, that was not for many months later. If they acted quickly, marhced the RIng to the Havens and then by ship down to either Dol Amroth or Pelargir, the Ring could have benn gotten safely pretty close to Mordor. Taking it by Sea had a another good point. Worse comes to worse, just drop it into the deep ocean. If the Silmaril could not be found, the Ring certainly would not. Russ ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20041011162224.28660.00000600@mb-m05.aol.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 107 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 22:44:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.102.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1097534690 82.44.102.80 (Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:44:50 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:44:50 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162588 McREsq wrote: > I think Elrond made a mistake by keeping the Ring in Rivendell for so > long. They knew the Nine were unhorsed so he should have struck while > the iron was hot and gotten the Ring over the Misty's and down to > Lorien as quickly as possible. There may have been other servants of the Enemy about. It would have been more of a catastrophe to act too quickly and for the Ring to be captured. They had nearly lost the Ring recently through being unprepared and through Saruman's treachery delaying Gandalf. They had to be sure they got it right this time. > This leads back to the age old question: how was Gandalf originally > going to get into Mordor. The Black Gate seems unlikely, as does > sneaking by Minas Morgul. And clearly he didn't like the route > through Cirith Ungol either. Possibly there are secret passes only > Gandalf or Aragorn may have known about, but the only other known > route to the reader is to take the long way around and walk into > Mordor from the back. > > In that scenario, going via the Dale route the OP mention has some > value. There would have been an army of Easterlings there... > Or something completely different: taking the Ring to the > Havens and then by ship down to Coast to Dol Amroth or Pelargir. I suspect that Sauron would have conjured a storm to wreck the ship at sea. Much like the palantiri of the North were mostly lost in that shipwreck where Arvedui perished, the Ring would have been lost in the Deeps and Sauron would have conquered ME without the Ring. > I never really understood the aversion to taking the Ring to the > Havens. Again, the Nine were unhorsed and Sauron would have no > way of knowing which way the Ring was going or even if it had > moved out of Rivendell. Galdor, an elf of the Havens, said this: "If the return to Iarwain be thought too dangerous, then flight to the Sea is now fraught with gravest peril. My heart tells me that Sauron will expect us to take the western way, when he learns what has befallen. He soon will. The Nine have been unhorsed indeed but that is but a respite, ere they find new steeds and swifter. Only the waning might of Gondor stands now between him and a march in power along the coasts into the North; and if he comes, assailing the White Towers and the Havens, hereafter the Elves may have no escape from the lengthening shadows of Middle-earth." (The Council of Elrond) [Though I think this is just Galdor, under instructions from Cirdan, saying: keep that ^*%^& Ring away from the Havens"!] Remember that the Fellowship in Hollin sense something pass overhead. Maybe the Nazgul were already mounted and searching for the Ring in Eriador? "Frodo looked up at the sky. Suddenly he saw or felt a shadow pass over the high stars, as if for a moment they faded and then flashed out again. He shivered." (The Ring Goes South) However, when Elrond sends out messengers from Rivendell: "In no region had the messengers discovered any signs or tidings of the Riders or other servants of the Enemy." And that is after two months wasting time in Rivendell. OK, so they could have done the things you suggest in those two months, but at the time it probably felt like too much of a gamble. > As it was, the only reason Sauron knew of the Ring's > movement was through Saruman and his crebain. While it is true that > Umbar's fleet attacked and took Pelargir, that was not for many > months later. If they acted quickly, marhced the RIng to the Havens > and then by ship down to either Dol Amroth or Pelargir, the Ring > could have benn gotten safely pretty close to Mordor. And then what? I don't think it was an accident that the route of the Fellowhip did not pass through any realms of Men. In Pelargir or Dol Amroth, a Boromir-clone could have tried to seize the Ring! Even then, you still have to figure out how to get into Mordor. Going south and landing near Umbar or Harad is a LONG way south and in Enemy territory. And I think that the Bridges over the Anduin at Osgiliath were watched by the Enemy. Though I like the idea of approaching Morgul from the south, from Pelargir through southern Ithilien. > Taking it by Sea had a another good point. Worse comes to worse, > just drop it into the deep ocean. If the Silmaril could not be > found, the Ring certainly would not. And then Sauron would just conquer without the Ring. One of the (not clearly stated) points of the Council was that destroying the Ring would make a final end of this menace, and was their chance of destroying Sauron. They are effectively going on the offensive by trying to destroy the Ring. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### Lines: 143 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 12 Oct 2004 18:08:15 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Message-ID: <20041012140815.03406.00001390@mb-m25.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162617 Christopher wrote: >> I think Elrond made a mistake by keeping the Ring in Rivendell for so >> long. They knew the Nine were unhorsed so he should have struck while >> the iron was hot and gotten the Ring over the Misty's and down to >> Lorien as quickly as possible. > >There may have been other servants of the Enemy about. It would have >been more of a catastrophe to act too quickly and for the Ring to be >captured. They had nearly lost the Ring recently through being >unprepared and through Saruman's treachery delaying Gandalf. They had to >be sure they got it right this time. Well, we know from hindsight that the way was clear and they could have transported the Ring either to the Havens or to Lorien in relative safety if they moved quickly. But obviously Elrond could not operate from hindsight. So what did Elrond know? They knew Sauron had no significant force in the area with the Nazgul unclothed and unhorsed. Plus, I don't really see how the ultimate solution - a party of nine, including 4 hobbits - makes the Ring any safer than an escort of Eldar to the Havens or to Lorien. > > >> This leads back to the age old question: how was Gandalf originally >> going to get into Mordor. The Black Gate seems unlikely, as does >> sneaking by Minas Morgul. And clearly he didn't like the route >> through Cirith Ungol either. Possibly there are secret passes only >> Gandalf or Aragorn may have known about, but the only other known >> route to the reader is to take the long way around and walk into >> Mordor from the back. >> >> In that scenario, going via the Dale route the OP mention has some >> value. > >There would have been an army of Easterlings there... So? There were armies of Southrons marching through Ithilien. No matter which way they went they were going to encounter Sauron's armies. >> Or something completely different: taking the Ring to the >> Havens and then by ship down to Coast to Dol Amroth or Pelargir. > >I suspect that Sauron would have conjured a storm to wreck the ship at >sea. How would Sauron know where the Ring was? He didn't know where it was when it was passing right under his nose in Mordor. IIRC, the only reason Sauron even knew the general location of the Ring was two events: Saruman's crebain and later Frodo using the Seat of Seeing. > Much like the palantiri of the North were mostly lost in that >shipwreck where Arvedui perished, the Ring would have been lost in the >Deeps and Sauron would have conquered ME without the Ring. I don't think Sauron would want to lose the Ring. >> I never really understood the aversion to taking the Ring to the >> Havens. Again, the Nine were unhorsed and Sauron would have no >> way of knowing which way the Ring was going or even if it had >> moved out of Rivendell. > >Galdor, an elf of the Havens, said this: > >"If the return to Iarwain be thought too dangerous, then flight to the >Sea is now fraught with gravest peril. My heart tells me that Sauron >will expect us to take the western way, when he learns what has >befallen. He soon will. The Nine have been unhorsed indeed but that is >but a respite, ere they find new steeds and swifter. Only the waning >might of Gondor stands now between him and a march in power along the >coasts into the North; and if he comes, assailing the White Towers and >the Havens, hereafter the Elves may have no escape from the lengthening >shadows of Middle-earth." (The Council of Elrond) As I read that I think Galdor is only talking about the Ring remaining at the Havens. Under the scenario I am exploring it would not remain there but be quickly shipped down south. Plus, Galdor's timing is all off. Even as the book played out, Sauron attacked much earlier than intended and mainly due to Aragorn revealing himself in the Palantir. The discussions at Elrond's House occured much earlier and Suaorn would have been even less ready to mount an attack against Gondor and fight up the coast. >[Though I think this is just Galdor, under instructions from Cirdan, >saying: keep that ^*%^& Ring away from the Havens"!] > >Remember that the Fellowship in Hollin sense something pass overhead. >Maybe the Nazgul were already mounted and searching for the Ring in >Eriador? > >"Frodo looked up at the sky. Suddenly he saw or felt a shadow pass over >the high stars, as if for a moment they faded and then flashed out >again. He shivered." (The Ring Goes South) Quite possibly, but again, that is after several months of delay in Rivendell. I am exploring the idea of them moving quickly. >However, when Elrond sends out messengers from Rivendell: "In no region >had the messengers discovered any signs or tidings of the Riders or >other servants of the Enemy." > >And that is after two months wasting time in Rivendell. OK, so they >could have done the things you suggest in those two months, but at the >time it probably felt like too much of a gamble. Perhaps, but ultimately a gamble turned out to be their entire strategy. >> As it was, the only reason Sauron knew of the Ring's >> movement was through Saruman and his crebain. While it is true that >> Umbar's fleet attacked and took Pelargir, that was not for many >> months later. If they acted quickly, marhced the RIng to the Havens >> and then by ship down to either Dol Amroth or Pelargir, the Ring >> could have benn gotten safely pretty close to Mordor. > >And then what? I don't think it was an accident that the route of the >Fellowhip did not pass through any realms of Men. No so. The reason they did not use the High Pass (and thus travel through the realms of men such as the Beornings) was that it was too late in the season. Moreover, if not for outside events they would have passed through Rohan and Gondor. > In Pelargir or Dol >Amroth, a Boromir-clone could have tried to seize the Ring! So land further south. >Even then, you still have to figure out how to get into Mordor. Going >south and landing near Umbar or Harad is a LONG way south and in Enemy >territory. No matter which way, they are entering enemy territory. I don't have Fondstadt's book handy but I don't think a march from the the sea and around Mordor to enter from the east is any longer of a march then the one they actually did. Russ ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20041012140815.03406.00001390@mb-m25.aol.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 110 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:33:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.161.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1097613232 82.43.161.162 (Tue, 12 Oct 2004 21:33:52 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 21:33:52 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162627 McREsq wrote: > Christopher wrote: >> McREsq wrote: >>> I think Elrond made a mistake by keeping the Ring in Rivendell for >>> so long. They knew the Nine were unhorsed so he should have struck >>> while the iron was hot and gotten the Ring over the Misty's and >>> down to Lorien as quickly as possible. > Plus, I don't really see how the ultimate solution - a party of nine, > including 4 hobbits - makes the Ring any safer than an escort of > Eldar to the Havens or to Lorien. Hobbits are resistant to the lure of the Ring? It was an unexpected move that threw the Enemy off the scent? >> >> >>> This leads back to the age old question: how was Gandalf originally >>> going to get into Mordor. >>> In that scenario, going via the Dale route the OP mention has some >>> value. >> >> There would have been an army of Easterlings there... > > So? There were armies of Southrons marching through Ithilien. No > matter which way they went they were going to encounter Sauron's > armies. At least in Ithilien they had trees to hide in. The wide open plains of Rhovanion would not be the place to sneak around in. >>> Or something completely different: taking the Ring to the >>> Havens and then by ship down to Coast to Dol Amroth or Pelargir. >> >> I suspect that Sauron would have conjured a storm to wreck the ship >> at sea. > > How would Sauron know where the Ring was? True. I was thinking of generalised storms like we see in Caradhras, and over the Emyn Muil and Rohan. > As I read that I think Galdor is only talking about the Ring > remaining at the Havens. Under the scenario I am exploring it would > not remain there but be quickly shipped down south. But Sauron would think that the most likely place to look for the Ring. In contrast the Fellowship go by unexpected routes and disappear underground and are difficult to find. > Quite possibly, but again, that is after several months of delay in > Rivendell. I am exploring the idea of them moving quickly. Which could have led to catastrophe. How could Elrond be sure that they could move quickly, without sending out scouts to check first? >> However, when Elrond sends out messengers from Rivendell: "In no >> region had the messengers discovered any signs or tidings of the >> Riders or other servants of the Enemy." >> >> And that is after two months wasting time in Rivendell. OK, so they >> could have done the things you suggest in those two months, but at >> the time it probably felt like too much of a gamble. > > Perhaps, but ultimately a gamble turned out to be their entire > strategy. But this was a better gamble! Gandalf said (after the attempt to cross Caradhras): "I see now little hope, if we do not soon vanish from sight for a while, and cover our trail." How would they do that by travelling to the Havens (the first route that Sauron would look for them on) and being in a ship that could easily be tracked by Sauron's spies (probably birds)? >>> As it was, the only reason Sauron knew of the Ring's >>> movement was through Saruman and his crebain. What about the wargs? >> I don't think it was an accident that the route of the >> Fellowhip did not pass through any realms of Men. > > No so. The reason they did not use the High Pass (and thus travel > through the realms of men such as the Beornings) was that it was too > late in the season. Moreover, if not for outside events they would > have passed through Rohan and Gondor. I don't think Gandalf would have let the Ring go that way. He would most likely have crossed at Rauros like Frodo did. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: Alexey Romanov Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:43:06 +0400 Lines: 65 Message-ID: References: <20041011162224.28660.00000600@mb-m05.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de FCMLPXtKtuzBBGGx1Uh5SQnkyAo3bnPG4upbmdpIZlGsShKSZv X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.646 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162635 On 11 Oct 2004 20:22:24 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: > >>>> And why not send them to Dale with an escort of Giants (in the >>>> mountains)Beornings (in the vale) and Woodelves (in Mirkwood), then >>>> down the river to Emyn Muhl, etc. >>> >>> Because of the corruption and trouble the Ring would cause. >> >> >> >>Better argument than that. >> >>Dale is on a river, but not a river that goes to Emyn Muil. Look at the >>map. Having said that, I think the idea of going over the High Pass was >>considered and rejected, but can't remember the reference. > >It was snowed in by that point. That is why they went south an hoped to cross >the Misty's further down. > >I think Elrond made a mistake by keeping the Ring in Rivendell for so long. >They knew the Nine were unhorsed so he should have struck while the iron was >hot and gotten the Ring over the Misty's and down to Lorien as quickly as >possible. By waiting for so long, the High Pass was snowed in. > Was the High Pass being snowed in a report of the scouts? If so, they both started before Company could and would presumably be faster. If the Company tried to get to the High Pass without scouting they would only run into snow then. >> In any case, >>the idea was to get to Lorien, not Mirkwood. > >This leads back to the age old question: how was Gandald originally going to >get into Mordor. The Black Gate seems unlikely, as does sneaking by Minas >Morgul. And clearly he didn't like the route through Cirith Ungol either. >Possibly there are secret passes only Gandalf or Aragorn may have known about, >but the only other known route to the reader is to take the long way around and >walk into Mordor from the back. > >In that scenario, going via the Dale route the OP mention has some value. Or >something completely different: taking the Ring to the Havens and then by ship >down to Coast to Dol Amroth or Pelargir. > >I never really understood the aversion to taking the Ring to the Havens. >Again, the Nine were unhorsed and Sauron would have no way of knowing which way >the Ring was going or even if it had moved out of Rivendell. As it was, the >only reason Sauron knew of the Ring's movement was through Saruman and his >crebain. While it is true that Umbar's fleet attacked and took Pelargir, that >was not for many months later. If they acted quickly, marhced the RIng to the >Havens and then by ship down to either Dol Amroth or Pelargir, the Ring could >have benn gotten safely pretty close to Mordor. I do have to agree here (not to mention effect on Gondorian morale). >Taking it by Sea had a another good point. Worse comes to worse, just drop it >into the deep ocean. If the Silmaril could not be found, the Ring certainly >would not. The Silmaril didn't *want* to be found, however. >Russ Alexey Romanov ###### Lines: 142 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 13 Oct 2004 03:03:39 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Message-ID: <20041012230339.22383.00001830@mb-m17.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:162655 Christopher wrote: >> Plus, I don't really see how the ultimate solution - a party of nine, >> including 4 hobbits - makes the Ring any safer than an escort of >> Eldar to the Havens or to Lorien. > >Hobbits are resistant to the lure of the Ring? It was an unexpected move >that threw the Enemy off the scent? Except that decision was only arrived to at the very end. What was Elrond's plan over the prior months? >>> There would have been an army of Easterlings there... >> >> So? There were armies of Southrons marching through Ithilien. No >> matter which way they went they were going to encounter Sauron's >> armies. > >At least in Ithilien they had trees to hide in. The wide open plains of >Rhovanion would not be the place to sneak around in. I disagree. An army would be throwing up dust that could be seen for miles. A small party could get out of the way easily. Quite frankly, I could see a small group fairly easily negotiating a passage around the ass-end of Mordor. After all, no one would be expecting anyone going in that direction for anything nefarious. Let's face it, if a small party could sneak by the Black Gate and Minas Morgul, I don't think the vastness of the Eastlands would pose any problems. >>>> Or something completely different: taking the Ring to the >>>> Havens and then by ship down to Coast to Dol Amroth or Pelargir. >>> >>> I suspect that Sauron would have conjured a storm to wreck the ship >>> at sea. >> >> How would Sauron know where the Ring was? > >True. I was thinking of generalised storms like we see in Caradhras, and >over the Emyn Muil and Rohan. I suspect ships built by Cirdan culd withstand generalized storms. That even assume Sauron would know where they were going. If you recall, several pieces had to fall into palce for Sauron to know where the Nine Walkers were going. > > >> As I read that I think Galdor is only talking about the Ring >> remaining at the Havens. Under the scenario I am exploring it would >> not remain there but be quickly shipped down south. > >But Sauron would think that the most likely place to look for the Ring. Why? There's no evidence Sauron took a second look at the Havens. The Havens was only vulnerable if the Ring stayed there. If the Ring arrived and took ship there was no danger to the Havens. >In contrast the Fellowship go by unexpected routes and disappear >underground and are difficult to find. How unexpected? What routes did they have by that time of year? Why was it so easy for Mordor orcs to link up with Saruman's uruk-hai and take Merry and Pippin? > > > >> Quite possibly, but again, that is after several months of delay in >> Rivendell. I am exploring the idea of them moving quickly. > >Which could have led to catastrophe. How could Elrond be sure that they >could move quickly, without sending out scouts to check first? Again, this is hindsight but he sent scouts out for a few months to determine the way was clear but by the time the Nine set out the way was not clear. So what did scouting serve? Elrond's delay caused a major problem: the High Pass was unpassable. That forced the Nine walkers over Caradhras (the gap of Rohan was no passable because Saruman was Sauron's stooge). Let's face it, Elrond's timidity did not serve the Free Peoples well. All's well that ends well, but there is much room for criticism there. Elrond was, perhaps unsurprisingly, mirroring the attitude of his fading people. >>> However, when Elrond sends out messengers from Rivendell: "In no >>> region had the messengers discovered any signs or tidings of the >>> Riders or other servants of the Enemy." >>> >>> And that is after two months wasting time in Rivendell. OK, so they >>> could have done the things you suggest in those two months, but at >>> the time it probably felt like too much of a gamble. >> >> Perhaps, but ultimately a gamble turned out to be their entire >> strategy. > >But this was a better gamble! Gandalf said (after the attempt to cross >Caradhras): > >"I see now little hope, if we do not soon vanish from sight for a while, >and cover our trail." > >How would they do that by travelling to the Havens (the first route that >Sauron would look for them on) What is your evidence for that? The most obvios route was over the High Pass and down the Anduin to Lorien. > and being in a ship that could easily be >tracked by Sauron's spies (probably birds)? Any route the Nine walkers chose would risk being spotted by crebain. But what force could Sauron bring to bear in such a short time at the Havens. Nothing. >>>> As it was, the only reason Sauron knew of the Ring's >>>> movement was through Saruman and his crebain. > >What about the wargs? Again, how could they catch up and do any damage to a strong force from Rivendell? >>> I don't think it was an accident that the route of the >>> Fellowhip did not pass through any realms of Men. >> >> No so. The reason they did not use the High Pass (and thus travel >> through the realms of men such as the Beornings) was that it was too >> late in the season. Moreover, if not for outside events they would >> have passed through Rohan and Gondor. > >I don't think Gandalf would have let the Ring go that way. He would most >likely have crossed at Rauros like Frodo did. They still would have passed though mannish realms. Russ ###### Lines: 191 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 17 Nov 2004 21:12:30 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Message-ID: <20041117161230.21623.00000616@mb-m12.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:164390 Christopher wrote: >> >> >>>> Plus, I don't really see how the ultimate solution - a party of >>>> nine, including 4 hobbits - makes the Ring any safer than an escort >>>> of Eldar to the Havens or to Lorien. >>> >>> Hobbits are resistant to the lure of the Ring? It was an unexpected >>> move that threw the Enemy off the scent? >> >> Except that decision was only arrived to at the very end. What was >> Elrond's plan over the prior months? > >Sit tight and work out what to do. As opposed to your plan of rushing >off somewhere straightaway and getting it all wrong... Doh! Seriously though, there is something to be said for striking when the iron's hot. After the flight to the ford, the nazgul were in disarray. Elrond should have considered taking advantage of the situation. Elrond's plan also left them less options. They knew Saruman was working for Sauron so by waiting so long that mean the Caradhras pass was their only option. That's putting all your eggs one basket. On the other hand, making an early crossing of the high pass gave the Fellowship several options. >>>>> There would have been an army of Easterlings there... >>>> >>>> So? There were armies of Southrons marching through Ithilien. No >>>> matter which way they went they were going to encounter Sauron's >>>> armies. >>> >>> At least in Ithilien they had trees to hide in. The wide open plains >>> of Rhovanion would not be the place to sneak around in. >> >> I disagree. An army would be throwing up dust that could be seen for >> miles. A small party could get out of the way easily. > >What about being spotted by the Nazgul? There was that risk no matter which way they took. Sauron only knew their general path because the party left so late and had to go south to cross the Misty's at Caradhras where they were spotted by Saruman's crebain. Without that, Sauron would have no idea what they were up to. Thus, had the Fellowship left early enough in order to be able to use the high pass near Rivendell, they could have crossed into Rhovanion and taken the long way round into Mordor or gone down the Anduin leaving Sauron completely in the dark as to their plans and route. >> Quite frankly, I could see a small group fairly easily negotiating a >> passage around the ass-end of Mordor. After all, no one would be >> expecting anyone going in that direction for anything nefarious. >> Let's face it, if a small party could sneak by the Black Gate and >> Minas Morgul, I don't think the vastness of the Eastlands would pose >> any problems. > >Except that they _are_ vast. How long does this plan take? When do these >starved hobbit skeletons eventually get discovered by a band of orcs? >No, wait, that _is_ what happened! They just discovered Frodo's skeleton >on some Indonesian island somewhere... Why do you think the Fellowship would be in such dire straights taking this route? Yes it was longer, but the members were well versed in surviving off the land. Bilbo's party survived a journey that was not that much longer than the one I am proposing. The Fellowship could have restocked and refitted at several points along the way: withe Beornings, the wood-elves, the men of Laketown. > > >>> In contrast the Fellowship go by unexpected routes and disappear >>> underground and are difficult to find. >> >> How unexpected? What routes did they have by that time of year? Why >> was it so easy for Mordor orcs to link up with Saruman's uruk-hai and >> take Merry and Pippin? > >Because the Fellowship were spotted on the Great River. Before then the >Fellowship must have seemed to have disappeared from the face of ME. As I recall, they were spotted first by the crebain of Saruman. And since Saruman knew, that means Sauron knew through his domination of Saruman via the Palantir. >>> >>> >>>> Quite possibly, but again, that is after several months of delay in >>>> Rivendell. I am exploring the idea of them moving quickly. >>> >>> Which could have led to catastrophe. How could Elrond be sure that >>> they could move quickly, without sending out scouts to check first? >> >> Again, this is hindsight but he sent scouts out for a few months to >> determine the way was clear but by the time the Nine set out the way >> was not clear. So what did scouting serve? > >The way _was_ clear. The Nine Riders had been unhorsed. That was vital >to the success of a Fellowship going on foot. I'm not so sure of the benefit of scouting that took so long. For example, Elrond's sons scouted down to Lorien. However by the time they returned to Rivendell the way could have become less clear - and that is exactly what happened. >>>>> However, when Elrond sends out messengers from Rivendell: "In no >>>>> region had the messengers discovered any signs or tidings of the >>>>> Riders or other servants of the Enemy." >>>>> >>>>> And that is after two months wasting time in Rivendell. OK, so they >>>>> could have done the things you suggest in those two months, but at >>>>> the time it probably felt like too much of a gamble. >>>> >>>> Perhaps, but ultimately a gamble turned out to be their entire >>>> strategy. >>> >>> But this was a better gamble! Gandalf said (after the attempt to >>> cross Caradhras): >>> >>> "I see now little hope, if we do not soon vanish from sight for a >>> while, and cover our trail." >>> >>> How would they do that by travelling to the Havens (the first route >>> that Sauron would look for them on) >> >> What is your evidence for that? The most obvios route was over the >> High Pass and down the Anduin to Lorien. > >And the most obvious route was one that would be closely watched. Would >you _really_ have gone that way if you had had the responsibility of >making the right choice for the future of ME? Actually, didn't someone say the most obvious route was taking the Ring to the Havens? >>> and being in a ship that could easily be >>> tracked by Sauron's spies (probably birds)? >> >> Any route the Nine walkers chose would risk being spotted by crebain. >> >> But what force could Sauron bring to bear in such a short time at the >> Havens. Nothing. > >Why would he need to bring a great force to bear? Once he had spotted >them he would just have them followed and slowly draw the net around >them. But that's a risk present in *any* route - the one they took as well as the hypothetical routes we are discussing. >>>>>> As it was, the only reason Sauron knew of the Ring's >>>>>> movement was through Saruman and his crebain. >>> >>> What about the wargs? >> >> Again, how could they catch up and do any damage to a strong force >> from Rivendell? > >How do you feed and supply this 'strong' force? The same way Elves have been doing it for thousands of years. Gildor's party made the Nazgul back off. >>>>> I don't think it was an accident that the route of the >>>>> Fellowhip did not pass through any realms of Men. >>>> >>>> No so. The reason they did not use the High Pass (and thus travel >>>> through the realms of men such as the Beornings) was that it was >>>> too late in the season. Moreover, if not for outside events they >>>> would have passed through Rohan and Gondor. >>> >>> I don't think Gandalf would have let the Ring go that way. He would >>> most likely have crossed at Rauros like Frodo did. >> >> They still would have passed though mannish realms. > >Where? Any way into Mordor is going to involve going through areas where men lived. Whether through Ithilien or around to the east or to the South. Russ Russ ------------------------------------- I'd like to apologize in advance for anything that I may say or do that could be construed as offensive as I slowly go NUTS. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20041117161230.21623.00000616@mb-m12.aol.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 97 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:51:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.165.89 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1100728263 82.43.165.89 (Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:51:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:51:03 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:164392 Russ wrote: > Thus, had the Fellowship left early enough in order to be able to use > the high pass near Rivendell, they could have crossed into Rhovanion > and taken the long way round into Mordor or gone down the Anduin > leaving Sauron completely in the dark as to their plans and route. I'm slowly beginning to like this idea. Except for the fact that by the time the Fellowship get to Amon Hen, Frodo seems to see the land of the Beornings in flame, and battle under the trees in Mirkwood. I know you are suggesting that they leave earlier, but I still think you will run into more problems along that route than the one that was actually taken. After all, the Fellowship seemed to think that the route they chose would not be too difficult. Unfortunately they did run into several problems en route! You obviously think that your route _might_ be easier, but can you be sure? >>> Quite frankly, I could see a small group fairly easily negotiating a >>> passage around the ass-end of Mordor. After all, no one would be >>> expecting anyone going in that direction for anything nefarious. >>> Let's face it, if a small party could sneak by the Black Gate and >>> Minas Morgul, I don't think the vastness of the Eastlands would pose >>> any problems. >> >> Except that they _are_ vast. How long does this plan take? When do >> these starved hobbit skeletons eventually get discovered by a band >> of orcs? No, wait, that _is_ what happened! They just discovered >> Frodo's skeleton on some Indonesian island somewhere... > > Why do you think the Fellowship would be in such dire straights > taking this route? Yes it was longer, but the members were well > versed in surviving off the land. Bilbo's party survived a journey > that was not that much longer than the one I am proposing. Um. They nearly got killed in the Misty Mountains and in Mirkwood. It wasn't until they got to Beorn and later the town on the Long Lake that they managed to resupply. > The Fellowship could have restocked and refitted at several points > along the way: withe Beornings, the wood-elves, the men of Laketown. All potentially filled with Sauron's spies. I would guess that the Fellowship wanted to keep away from any large settlements. > I'm not so sure of the benefit of scouting that took so long. For > example, Elrond's sons scouted down to Lorien. However by the time > they returned to Rivendell the way could have become less clear - and > that is exactly what happened. Agreed. >>> What is your evidence for that? The most obvious route was over the >>> High Pass and down the Anduin to Lorien. >> >> And the most obvious route was one that would be closely watched. >> Would you _really_ have gone that way if you had had the >> responsibility of making the right choice for the future of ME? > > Actually, didn't someone say the most obvious route was taking the > Ring to the Havens? That was me. Hey! I don't _have_ to be consistent! :-) <...> Hold on! _You_ are being inconsistent! I've pointed out that the High Pass route is too obvious, and you are trying to switch to talking about something else! Tsk, tsk! >>>> I don't think Gandalf would have let the Ring go that way. He would >>>> most likely have crossed at Rauros like Frodo did. >>> >>> They still would have passed though mannish realms. >> >> Where? > > Any way into Mordor is going to involve going through areas where men > lived. Whether through Ithilien or around to the east or to the South. But your route goes close to large settlements and areas of fairly large populations (presumably). The actual route the Fellowship (and then Frodo) took is notable for travelling through _empty_ lands. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 70.70.200.108 Reply-To: "Chris Wright" From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20041117161230.21623.00000616@mb-m12.aol.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 23:08:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1100732921 64.59.144.74 (Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:08:41 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:08:41 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:164397 > Why do you think the Fellowship would be in such dire straights dire -straits- Sorry to be a spelling nazi, but they are my favorite band, and it's good to remember the original connotation - nautical. As for Elrond not striking while the iron was hot, certainly it has something to do with the tacit assumption that Frodo was always to be the Ring-bearer. I think there was a general fear of the Ring changing hands through anything other than dumb luck (e.g. Bilbo's finding of the Ring, Bilbo's getting fed up and abandoning everything, not excepting the Ring). And of course, no one else really wanted to take responsibility for custodianship of the Ring, except Boromir. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:44:59 -0600 From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20041117161230.21623.00000616@mb-m12.aol.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:44:55 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Lines: 85 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.203.74.66 X-Trace: sv3-uPUFTnea89niiMSASCnH0vxRNgkLe1UR+u1u+taqgP0HfoqsdyGK5W+0vOc+K98X+16Ei1QUAar92rj!dWOCDfkrdE40MMvD5JuF9s1M6+44NXIDXo9SZbAYEvVBLd3b4d9Mg3G6SspEWsNYji6CESiW8Rk/!VWsl0w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.conversent.net!news.conversent.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:164428 "Russ" wrote in message news:20041117161230.21623.00000616@mb-m12.aol.com... > > Seriously though, there is something to be said for striking when the iron's > hot. After the flight to the ford, the nazgul were in disarray. Elrond should > have considered taking advantage of the situation. I thought they all agreed to wait until the scouts that were sent out returned. I don't remember anyone thinking *not* to wait for the scouts. > > Elrond's plan also left them less options. They knew Saruman was working for > Sauron so by waiting so long that mean the Caradhras pass was their only > option. That's putting all your eggs one basket. On the other hand, making an > early crossing of the high pass gave the Fellowship several options. > Without those returning scouts they would be running blind. > > There was that risk no matter which way they took. Sauron only knew their > general path because the party left so late and had to go south to cross the > Misty's at Caradhras where they were spotted by Saruman's crebain. Without > that, Sauron would have no idea what they were up to. > Huh? I thought the loyalty of the crebain was only guessed at as was whether they were even successful at seeing the Company. > Thus, had the Fellowship left early enough in order to be able to use the high > pass near Rivendell, they could have crossed into Rhovanion and taken the long > way round into Mordor or gone down the Anduin leaving Sauron completely in the > dark as to their plans and route. I thought making for Lorien and getting aid from Galadriel was a better plan. > > >> Quite frankly, I could see a small group fairly easily negotiating a > >> passage around the ass-end of Mordor. After all, no one would be > >> expecting anyone going in that direction for anything nefarious. > >> Let's face it, if a small party could sneak by the Black Gate and > >> Minas Morgul, I don't think the vastness of the Eastlands would pose > >> any problems. > > > >Except that they _are_ vast. How long does this plan take? When do these > >starved hobbit skeletons eventually get discovered by a band of orcs? > >No, wait, that _is_ what happened! They just discovered Frodo's skeleton > >on some Indonesian island somewhere... > > Why do you think the Fellowship would be in such dire straights taking this > route? Yes it was longer, but the members were well versed in surviving off > the land. Bilbo's party survived a journey that was not that much longer than > the one I am proposing. The Fellowship could have restocked and refitted at > several points along the way: withe Beornings, the wood-elves, the men of > Laketown. > "OK, who has the map needed to travel through the ass-end of Mordor?" asks Aragorn. "No, not the North Ithilen map Gimli. We left that area over 300 miles ago!" :o) Everywhere the Fellowship traveled, even after it broke up, they were lead by someone who at least had some clue as to where they were going. T.A. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20041117161230.21623.00000616@mb-m12.aol.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:10:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.165.89 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1100808606 82.43.165.89 (Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:10:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:10:06 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.zanker.org!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:164446 The American wrote: > "OK, who has the map needed to travel through the ass-end of Mordor?" > asks Aragorn. "No, not the North Ithilen map Gimli. We left that area > over 300 miles ago!" :-) > Everywhere the Fellowship traveled, even after it broke up, they were > lead by someone who at least had some clue as to where they were > going. Thank-you. A decisive point. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 70.70.200.108 Reply-To: "Chris Wright" From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20041119142941.23218.00001001@mb-m03.aol.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:02:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1100901729 64.59.144.74 (Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:02:09 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:02:09 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:164514 "Michelle J. Haines" wrote in message news:MPG.1c080127188e71fb9896ae@news.starband.net... > In article <20041119142941.23218.00001001@mb-m03.aol.com>, > mcresq@aol.comnojunk says... >> >> Have you read the book? > > He keeps trying to rewrite them to make Boromir the hero. ... Boromir gets bad rap is all, as a result of the central conceit of LotR: the One ring is conceivable. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20041119102420.08032.00000903@mb-m07.aol.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 27 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:42:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.103.51 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1100950938 82.44.103.51 (Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:42:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:42:18 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsgate.cistron.nl!feeder.enertel.nl!nntpfeed-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:164540 Russ wrote: > Well, then they could still cross at the high pass then head straight > down the Anduin to Lorien. My point is that leaving earlier and > crossing the Misty's through the high pass leaves them much more > options than leaving later - which left them one option: Caradhras. I can agree with you on this. :-) > They were going to have to pass through populated areas at some > point. Let's say they made it through Caradhras. They're still > going to have to go through Rohan and Ithilien to reach Mordor. The Ring never went through Rohan, it only went along the river on its northern borders, and the Fellowship noticed how empty those lands were. And Ithilien is _not_ a populated land. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20041119150505.21925.00000908@mb-m06.aol.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 23 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:45:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.103.51 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1100951155 82.44.103.51 (Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:45:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:45:55 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:164541 Russ wrote: > Tord wrote: > >>> Aragorn travelled extensively through the eastlands. >> >> He did, but the eastlands is a really huge place. As far as I >> remember, we are never told exactly where Aragorn went during the >> time he spent in Rhun and Harad. It is not at all clear that he was >> ever close to the eastern end of Mordor. > > Well, it's also said he entered Mordor. Put both ideas together > and... Makes you wonder why he didn't give Frodo a few tips on how to get into Mordor. Maybe Aragorn entered in disguise serving in one of Sauron's armies? Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20041119103130.08032.00000904@mb-m07.aol.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 19 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:51:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.103.51 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1100951480 82.44.103.51 (Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:51:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:51:20 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:164542 Russ wrote: > How did Sauron know to send orcs to Amon Hen? I agree that the crebain in Hollin _might_ have spotted them, but I also think that Sauron would have had orc bands out in force on the eastern side of the River no matter what. It is one of these orc bands that spots the Fellowship just before they reach Sarn Gebir. Presumably it is the same band that makes its way to Amon Hen. Aragorn is also wary of the birds that fly overhead while they are on the River and at Parth Galen. These might have also been spies of the Enemy. And there also seems to be a Nazgul taxi service running, at least for Grishnakh. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20041119120850.06002.00000518@mb-m21.aol.com> Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Lines: 19 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <1kGnd.18937$up1.9608@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:58:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.103.51 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: text.news.blueyonder.co.uk 1100951933 82.44.103.51 (Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:58:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:58:53 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!text.news.blueyonder.co.uk!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:164543 Russ wrote: > However, the fellowship did not leave for another 2 months: December > 25. Maybe we have to look for another reason. Story-externally, Tolkien wanted the dates of 25 December and 25 March to be used for their Christian significance. Remember, you might also ask why the Fellowship spent so long in Lorien. It would be nice to find a story-internal reason for the Rivendell and Lorien stays that are stronger than just "resting" and "scouting". Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### Lines: 20 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 21 Nov 2004 01:50:42 GMT References: <1kGnd.18937$up1.9608@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Message-ID: <20041120205042.06587.00000497@mb-m24.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:164577 Christopher wrote: >> However, the fellowship did not leave for another 2 months: December >> 25. > >Maybe we have to look for another reason. Story-externally, Tolkien >wanted the dates of 25 December and 25 March to be used for their >Christian significance. Remember, you might also ask why the Fellowship >spent so long in Lorien. > >It would be nice to find a story-internal reason for the Rivendell and >Lorien stays that are stronger than just "resting" and "scouting". Waiting for Frodo to recover? Russ ------------------------------------- Qom delenda est. http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/041122/usnews/22iran.htm ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:42:28 -0600 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:42:30 -0600 From: Larry Swain User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... References: <1kGnd.18937$up1.9608@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> <20041120205042.06587.00000497@mb-m24.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <20041120205042.06587.00000497@mb-m24.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.80.74.226 X-Trace: sv3-mCFfpMrLE0JkjPwrUZIxZJ/ajBUjpbaUWNm2Df1ONj1xES30nJ7uXO5XXAL4px4YqWI8ZTze4I93Wyo!vK7dFN5G3ji+MN6sbdE0VrgT37gnmaj2LJDrd/WtfcfZrcY0eaoy+mpRm7NZxGrO X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!prodigy.com!prodigy.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:164598 Russ wrote: > Christopher wrote: > >>>However, the fellowship did not leave for another 2 months: December >>>25. >> >>Maybe we have to look for another reason. Story-externally, Tolkien >>wanted the dates of 25 December and 25 March to be used for their >>Christian significance. Remember, you might also ask why the Fellowship >>spent so long in Lorien. >> >>It would be nice to find a story-internal reason for the Rivendell and >>Lorien stays that are stronger than just "resting" and "scouting". > Waiting for Frodo to recover? Plus the Council, plus the scouting missions for news and info before setting out. ###### Lines: 37 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.comnojunk (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 23 Nov 2004 14:49:28 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: If you were picking the Fellowship... Message-ID: <20041123094928.06333.00000906@mb-m18.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:164699 > > > >Russ wrote: >> Christopher wrote: >> >> >>>>However, the fellowship did not leave for another 2 months: December >>>>25. >>> >>>Maybe we have to look for another reason. Story-externally, Tolkien >>>wanted the dates of 25 December and 25 March to be used for their >>>Christian significance. Remember, you might also ask why the Fellowship >>>spent so long in Lorien. >>> >>>It would be nice to find a story-internal reason for the Rivendell and >>>Lorien stays that are stronger than just "resting" and "scouting". >> >> >> Waiting for Frodo to recover? > >Plus the Council, The Council occurred 4 days after Frodo fell at Bruinen. > plus the scouting missions for news and info before >setting out. Well, that's what we've been discussing. We were looking for other reasons. Russ ------------------------------------- Qom delenda est. http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/041122/usnews/22iran.htm