From: Tristan Miller Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Does Sam have what it takes to be a murderer? Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:37:06 +0200 Organization: http://www.nothingisreal.com/ Lines: 29 Message-ID: <1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de QXfl5tPPnQuttgnA8VqySwCe9Vw8sulN9toJdjLcHqMW5xp0zY X-Orig-Path: port-3108.kl.dfki.de!news User-Agent: KNode/0.8.0 X-Accept-Language: en-ca, en-us, en-gb, en, fr, de, ia, x-folkspraak, hu X-Face: ,|JJNi.kzX63(aV,0XbB~?dW%VP=u--Ye!qJWlt$gXhm)|>,->@;eGma\{@.zaH:Y%lrG7N7jLuDwQMOk^#5nC"TL$0e\}b[tNPO#+0PL{(^MeyEIZ(a]Nu)?NJ|+gU0[.Ih6K]rQ<:o.?w0S5w_HRtmMIU2\#G"<[Me[HtW"N=kz%=4"#\]1hhw7&wZV#<4=vGay/$5&~4{~#z]:m<174,Bfj^E8No!zH+1ZMlB/(2705k&5)(<{|U(Z>C[npKiK;qiGb|jdJ=_~mz< Space is limited / |`-' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= <> In a haiku, so it's hard (7_\\ http://www.nothingisreal.com/ >< To finish what you ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Does Sam have what it takes to be a murderer? Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:08:39 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <10in0udpbau3ba8@corp.supernews.com> References: <1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 41 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160608 "Tristan Miller" wrote in message news:1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET... > Greetings. > > Here's a question somewhat related to the discussion in the "alternative > ending" thread: Had Gollum not been present at Mount Doom, would Sam have > dutifully pushed Frodo into the chasm once he had announced his intention > to claim the Ring? > > One might simply argue that Sam is too loyal to murder his beloved master. > But consider that Sam has long witnessed and been distressed over the > detrimental effects of the Ring on Frodo, and has an intense loathing for > the Ring-corrupted Gollum. Sam knows that if his master claims the Ring, > he will cease to be the Frodo his knows and loves. He will become > corrupt, power-mad, and, in the unlikely event that he isn't immediately > captured by Sauron, may over time degenerate into something akin to the > hideous Gollum. Knowing then that Frodo as he knows him cannot be saved, > and (less importantly) that he would be saving all of Middle-Earth, Sam > would regretfully acknowledge that his only choice would be to kill Frodo > by pushing him off the ledge. > > Sound plausible? Very, very *remotely* plausible, and only if Sam took himself over the edge at the same time. Personally, I do not believe he could have brought himself to do that to Frodo. On the other hand, I can see him cheerfully shoving Gollum in after he bit it off, if he had not been clumsy enough to dance over the edge. Barbara > > Regards, > Tristan > > -- > _ > _V.-o Tristan Miller [en,(fr,de,ia)] >< Space is limited > / |`-' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= <> In a haiku, so it's hard > (7_\\ http://www.nothingisreal.com/ >< To finish what you ###### From: "robert j. kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Does Sam have what it takes to be a murderer? References: <1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET> In-Reply-To: <1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s02 1093371894 24.62.143.251 (Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:24:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:24:54 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:24:54 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s02.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160613 Tristan Miller wrote: > One might simply argue that Sam is too loyal to murder his beloved > master. But consider that Sam has long witnessed and been distressed > over the > detrimental effects of the Ring on Frodo, and has an intense loathing for > the Ring-corrupted Gollum. Sam knows that if his master claims the Ring, > he will cease to be the Frodo his knows and loves. He will become > corrupt, power-mad, and, in the unlikely event that he isn't immediately > captured by Sauron, may over time degenerate into something akin to the > hideous Gollum. Knowing then that Frodo as he knows him cannot be saved, > and (less importantly) that he would be saving all of Middle-Earth, Sam > would regretfully acknowledge that his only choice would be to kill Frodo > by pushing him off the ledge. If Sam were ready to push Frode into the fire, he would have joined him. I doubt whether Sam could live with himself if he pushed Frodo in. Bob Kolker ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:54:24 -0500 From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET> Subject: Re: Does Sam have what it takes to be a murderer? Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:54:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.203.74.66 X-Trace: sv3-JPnwY4U8TQUdn+SN/i/iz9hF/xf1f1pROKnlTaOC9jnd1Rt3N+ffjQlYq9JX1bxDJJfas+TlBVdd+wE!qhk+IE5pf7UGrVAynPRtX1wSAQf5v8VITZZrzjkkzzVzBVA5Se5MF7S9414m1QOxnSZIG3nOt7uo!bF4zPQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.conversent.net!news.conversent.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160620 "Tristan Miller" wrote in message news:1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET... > Greetings. > > Here's a question somewhat related to the discussion in the "alternative > ending" thread: Had Gollum not been present at Mount Doom, would Sam have > dutifully pushed Frodo into the chasm once he had announced his intention > to claim the Ring? > > One might simply argue that Sam is too loyal to murder his beloved master. > But consider that Sam has long witnessed and been distressed over the > detrimental effects of the Ring on Frodo, and has an intense loathing for > the Ring-corrupted Gollum. Sam knows that if his master claims the Ring, > he will cease to be the Frodo his knows and loves. He will become > corrupt, power-mad, and, in the unlikely event that he isn't immediately > captured by Sauron, may over time degenerate into something akin to the > hideous Gollum. Knowing then that Frodo as he knows him cannot be saved, > and (less importantly) that he would be saving all of Middle-Earth, Sam > would regretfully acknowledge that his only choice would be to kill Frodo > by pushing him off the ledge. > > Sound plausible? > Sam would have tried. Not sure if he could have though. Even Frodo's limited understanding of how to use the Ring might have been enough to keep Sam away. Sam knew they weren't going to survive after the Ring was destroyed anyway and I believe that he loved Frodo enough to try to push him in even if it meant both their lives indoing so. T.A. ###### From: Chris Kern Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Does Sam have what it takes to be a murderer? Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:42:20 +0900 Organization: http://newsguy.com Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-565.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news3 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160626 On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:37:06 +0200, Tristan Miller posted the following: >Greetings. > >Here's a question somewhat related to the discussion in the "alternative >ending" thread: Had Gollum not been present at Mount Doom, would Sam have >dutifully pushed Frodo into the chasm once he had announced his intention >to claim the Ring? It's certainly possible. For a very long time during the writing of the Lord of the Rings, Tolkien thought that Sam would push Gollum into the lava to kill him (in some outlines Sam also died himself). It was only with the actual writing of the initial draft of the Mount Doom chapter that he came up with the current story (or as he would say, "found out what really happened"). Now wait, I misread your post. I think there's a very small chance that he would have killed *Frodo*, perhaps even nonexistent. -Chris ###### Lines: 14 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: carl032163@aol.com (Carl032163) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 25 Aug 2004 23:55:08 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Does Sam have what it takes to be a murderer? Message-ID: <20040825195508.19052.00004696@mb-m06.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160695 On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:37:06 +0200, Tristan Miller posted the following: >Greetings. > >Here's a question somewhat related to the discussion in the "alternative >ending" thread: Had Gollum not been present at Mount Doom, would Sam have >dutifully pushed Frodo into the chasm once he had announced his intention >to claim the Ring? Sam's essential quality, his essence if you will, was his loyalty to Frodo. The question is whether or not he could have come to the conclusion that it would have been better for Frodo to be dead than a slave to the ring. I thinks its about 50/50 whether or not he could have. ###### Message-ID: <20040826035101.15046.qmail@riot.eu.org> From: Igenlode Wordsmith Author-Supplied-Address: tethys blackhole riot eu org Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:56:15 +0100 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Does Sam have what it takes to be a murderer? References: <1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET> Reply-To: Igenlode_W@nym.alias.net Organization: The Ivory Tower ( http://curry.250x.com/Tower ) X-Abuse-Contact: abuse@bananasplit.info Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.zanker.org!news.bananasplit.info!nym2news Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160698 On 24 Aug 2004 Tristan Miller wrote: [snip] > Sam knows that if his master claims the Ring, he will cease to be the Frodo > his knows and loves. He will become corrupt, power-mad, and, in the > unlikely event that he isn't immediately captured by Sauron, may over time > degenerate into something akin to the hideous Gollum. Knowing then that > Frodo as he knows him cannot be saved, and (less importantly) that he would > be saving all of Middle-Earth, Sam would regretfully acknowledge that his > only choice would be to kill Frodo by pushing him off the ledge. > I can certainly see Sam flinging his arms around Frodo and jumping off the ledge himself... -- Igenlode Bookwraith unabashed The moment you stop being polite, you lose credibility in what you say. ###### From: eschmidt@safeaccess.com (Eric Schmidt) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Does Sam have what it takes to be a murderer? Date: 25 Aug 2004 23:04:55 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: <6e5fc465.0408252204.7663abf6@posting.google.com> References: <1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.8.102.243 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1093500296 32564 127.0.0.1 (26 Aug 2004 06:04:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 06:04:56 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160702 Tristan Miller wrote in message news:<1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET>... > Greetings. > > Here's a question somewhat related to the discussion in the "alternative > ending" thread: Had Gollum not been present at Mount Doom, would Sam have > dutifully pushed Frodo into the chasm once he had announced his intention > to claim the Ring? I think even if Sam tried he would find himself wanting the Ring for himself, just like Frodo. He couldn't have deliberately destroyed the Ring. -- Eric Schmidt ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Does Sam have what it takes to be a murderer? Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:23:04 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET> <20040826035101.15046.qmail@riot.eu.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!news1.dtag.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-feed.riddles.org.uk!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160703 On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:56:15 +0100, Igenlode Wordsmith wrote: >I can certainly see Sam flinging his arms around Frodo and jumping off >the ledge himself... Is that where Frodo's head turns all the way around four times and spews forth two quarts of oatmeal? "I've got you now, My Pretty!" the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend." - U.S. Army training notice ###### From: "robert j. kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Does Sam have what it takes to be a murderer? References: <1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET> <20040826035101.15046.qmail@riot.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <20040826035101.15046.qmail@riot.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s51 1093512718 24.62.143.251 (Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:31:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:31:58 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:31:58 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s51.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160714 Igenlode Wordsmith wrote: > I can certainly see Sam flinging his arms around Frodo and jumping off > the ledge himself... That is how I see it, also. Sam is wise enough to do what has to be done, but he could not bear to live and have Frodo die. It would have killed Sam anyway. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Gregg Cattanach" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET> <6e5fc465.0408252204.7663abf6@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Does Sam have what it takes to be a murderer? Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.44.85.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr17.news.prodigy.com 1093549639 ST000 12.44.85.20 (Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:47:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:47:19 EDT Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: OPXUR^WGAJVORVDYFBCDN_HAQB^H@IPDLXUNNHXIJYWZUYICD^RAQBKZQTZTX\_I[^G_KGFNON[ZOE_AZNVO^\XGGNTCIRPIJH[@RQKBXLRZ@CD^HKANYVW@RLGEZEJN@\_WZJBNZYYKVIOR]T]MNMG_Z[YVWSCH_Q[GPC_A@CARQVXDSDA^M]@DRVUM@RBM Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:47:19 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!c03.atl99!atl-c02.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!feedeast.aleron.net!prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr17.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!9c9da953!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160732 Eric Schmidt wrote: > Tristan Miller wrote in message > news:<1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET>... >> Greetings. >> >> Here's a question somewhat related to the discussion in the >> "alternative ending" thread: Had Gollum not been present at Mount >> Doom, would Sam have dutifully pushed Frodo into the chasm once he >> had announced his intention to claim the Ring? > > I think even if Sam tried he would find himself wanting the Ring for > himself, just like Frodo. He couldn't have deliberately destroyed the > Ring. No. Sam is on that short list of people that had actually voluntarily given up the Ring after having used it. Sam hated the Ring because of what it had been doing to Frodo. If he could have thrown himself into the fire with the Ring to save Frodo, he would have. He knew that even his vision as the master gardener of Mordor was a silly fraud and a deception of the Ring. All IMHO, of course. -- Gregg C. ###### Lines: 10 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: jadcox@aol.com (John Adcox) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 27 Aug 2004 22:03:51 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Does Sam have what it takes to be a murderer? Message-ID: <20040827180351.23133.00004084@mb-m07.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160772 Ouch. What a hard question. Like the general consensus, I agree that the hero in Sam would have arisen, and he would have pushed Frodo into the fire --- and that he would have followed. I am awfully glad that didn't happen, though. Thankfully, Providence works overtime in Middle-earth. ___ John Adcox Click below for Mythology, Philosophy, Literature, Writing References and more. http://jadcox.home.mindspring.com ###### From: "tuollaf43@yahoo.com" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Does Sam have what it takes to be a murderer? Date: 5 Sep 2004 13:08:53 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 22 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: odbk17.prod.google.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1094414934 4801 127.0.0.1 (5 Sep 2004 20:08:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 20:08:54 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <20040827180351.23133.00004084@mb-m07.aol.com> User-Agent: G2/0.1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161000 John Adcox wrote: > Ouch. What a hard question. Like the general consensus, I agree that the hero > in Sam would have arisen, and he would have pushed Frodo into the fire --- and > that he would have followed. I am awfully glad that didn't happen, though. > Thankfully, Providence works overtime in Middle-earth. > ___ > John Adcox > > Click below for Mythology, Philosophy, Literature, Writing References and more. > http://jadcox.home.mindspring.com Nah! Sam would have pushed Frodo in, dusted his hands and said 'Thats' that then'. Returning to the Shire the hard way after refusing a lift from the unnatural birds, he would have married Rosy and begot his first son Frodo during kinky "I'm Ringbearer Destroyer" roleplay in his bedroom. ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Does Sam have what it takes to be a murderer? Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:12:27 -0500 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: References: <1647610.EIP98Y04Z6@ID-187157.News.Individual.NET> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 46 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161001 On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:37:06 +0200, Tristan Miller wrote: >Greetings. > >Here's a question somewhat related to the discussion in the "alternative >ending" thread: Had Gollum not been present at Mount Doom, would Sam have >dutifully pushed Frodo into the chasm once he had announced his intention >to claim the Ring? > >One might simply argue that Sam is too loyal to murder his beloved master. >But consider that Sam has long witnessed and been distressed over the >detrimental effects of the Ring on Frodo, and has an intense loathing for >the Ring-corrupted Gollum. Sam knows that if his master claims the Ring, >he will cease to be the Frodo his knows and loves. He will become >corrupt, power-mad, and, in the unlikely event that he isn't immediately >captured by Sauron, may over time degenerate into something akin to the >hideous Gollum. Knowing then that Frodo as he knows him cannot be saved, >and (less importantly) that he would be saving all of Middle-Earth, Sam >would regretfully acknowledge that his only choice would be to kill Frodo >by pushing him off the ledge. > >Sound plausible? It would, if we hadn't already seen Sam weighing all that up in the mountains. He flung the Quest and all his decisions away, and fear and doubt with them. He knew now where his place was and had been: at his master's side, though what he could do there was not clear. Granted that was after he realized Frodo was alive but captured by the Orcs. But Sam is in a very passive frame of mind at the Sammath Naur; quite apart from having just had a blow to the head, I think it's all just too much for him. He's just watching it all unfold in front of him. He wouldn't suddenly come alive to the Quest and murder his beloved Frodo to fulfill the Quest, especially not after he'd already thrown the Quest aside up in the mountaints. He would do whatever Frodo told him to do, even though he'd know it was wrong; the order would probably be something like go fight the Nazgul coming to retrieve the Ring, which of course wouldn't work at all. He'd fall at the hands of the Nazgul, or else he'd join Frodo in a leap into the Fire, thus accomplishing the Quest but not as a happy ending. Barb