Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Magical realism vs. fantasy (was Re: OT: Good fantasy books???) References: <41234f01.88334638@news.compuserve.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 30 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1092952800 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:00:00 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:00:00 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: Ap9Vc-5878-45-3615@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 25e18196 6e305cf7 d6b8f4d0 e6bc7624 06739761 Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:00:00 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160328 Quoth " Shanahan" in article : > Jim Deutch <103134.3516@compuserve.com> gave the example: > > Mark Helprin: _Winter's Tale_ > Altho, I'd tend to classify it as 'magical realism' rather than > 'fantasy'. Hmm...is there a difference? The biggest difference that I've seen is that "magical realism" gets a great deal of respect as fine literature, while "fantasy" gets essentially none. (Well, okay, that's not really true, but it's close.) Gene Wolfe apparently defined it by saying that "Magical Realism is Fantasy written in Spanish." I've pondered the difference a number of times in the past, but I really haven't read enough magical realism to feel confident making strong statements about what characterizes it. I've seen some people suggest that magical realism differs from fantasy in that the former makes some "supernatural" elements an intrinsic part of the world described; others suggest that the difference is that the "unreality" in magical realism (unlike that in fantasy) is whimsical and has no consistent rules. To my mind, those definitions are mutually inconsistent, almost opposites, but what do I know? :) In the end, I think that there probably _is_ a difference between fantasy and magical realism, but I don't think it's an either/or distinction. There are some stories that are clearly one or the other, but a lot of things fall somewhere in the middle. Steuard Jensen ###### From: " Shanahan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Magical realism vs. fantasy (was Re: OT: Good fantasy books???) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:48:37 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <41234f01.88334638@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-806.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160348 Steuard Jensen creatively typed: > Quoth " Shanahan" in article > : >> Jim Deutch <103134.3516@compuserve.com> gave the example: >>> Mark Helprin: _Winter's Tale_ > >> Altho, I'd tend to classify it as 'magical realism' rather than >> 'fantasy'. Hmm...is there a difference? > > The biggest difference that I've seen is that "magical realism" > gets a great deal of respect as fine literature, while "fantasy" > gets essentially none. (Well, okay, that's not really true, but > it's close.) Gene Wolfe apparently defined it by saying that > "Magical Realism is Fantasy written in Spanish." ROFL! > I've pondered the difference a number of times in the past, but I > really haven't read enough magical realism to feel confident > making strong statements about what characterizes it. I've seen > some people suggest that magical realism differs from fantasy in > that the former makes some "supernatural" elements an intrinsic > part of the world described; others suggest that the difference > is that the "unreality" in magical realism (unlike that in > fantasy) is whimsical and has no consistent rules. To my mind, > those definitions are mutually inconsistent, almost opposites, > but what do I know? :) I haven't read any m.r. except Marquez, but I tend to think of it as "some magical stuff happening in the 'real world'". Whereas fantasy creates an alternate world. > In the end, I think that there probably _is_ a difference between > fantasy and magical realism, but I don't think it's an either/or > distinction. There are some stories that are clearly one or the > other, but a lot of things fall somewhere in the middle. But yes, I'd have to agree with that. There is no hard distinction. De Lint's stuff, for example, has to be placed somewhere in the middle. Ciaran S. -- Oh Lord, bless this Thy holy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits in Thy mercy ###### From: Dirk Thierbach Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Magical realism vs. fantasy (was Re: OT: Good fantasy books???) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:32:16 +0200 Lines: 16 Message-ID: <20040820063216.389.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> References: <41234f01.88334638@news.compuserve.com> Reply-To: Dirk Thierbach X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de iXVgrz0rNXhjImhyIXTbRgiucVtNJF9tmW7iIjLK47CuiHQggYt2JoLQ== X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.7.5-20040615 ("Gighay") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.26 (i686)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160370 Steuard Jensen wrote: > Quoth " Shanahan" in article >> Altho, I'd tend to classify it as 'magical realism' rather than >> 'fantasy'. Hmm...is there a difference? > In the end, I think that there probably _is_ a difference between > fantasy and magical realism, but I don't think it's an either/or > distinction. There are some stories that are clearly one or the > other, but a lot of things fall somewhere in the middle. I have never heard the term before. Can you give a few examples of books that are clearly on the side of 'magical realism'? - Dirk ###### Message-ID: <412633E9.3AA251C6@aon.at> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:24:57 +0200 From: Georg Schönegger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [de] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Magical realism vs. fantasy (was Re: OT: Good fantasy books???) References: <41234f01.88334638@news.compuserve.com> <20040820063216.389.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: M291P016.adsl.highway.telekom.at X-Trace: 1093022605 newsreader02.highway.telekom.at 19672 62.47.204.80 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.space.net!news.m-online.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed01.highway.telekom.at!newsreader02.highway.telekom.at!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160373 Dirk Thierbach schrieb: > > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > Quoth " Shanahan" in article > > >> Altho, I'd tend to classify it as 'magical realism' rather than > >> 'fantasy'. Hmm...is there a difference? > > > In the end, I think that there probably _is_ a difference between > > fantasy and magical realism, but I don't think it's an either/or > > distinction. There are some stories that are clearly one or the > > other, but a lot of things fall somewhere in the middle. > > I have never heard the term before. Can you give a few examples of books > that are clearly on the side of 'magical realism'? > > - Dirk most jonathan carroll books (at least the ones i've read) georg ###### From: jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Magical realism vs. fantasy (was Re: OT: Good fantasy books???) Date: 20 Aug 2004 13:47:27 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <41234f01.88334638@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1093024047 22009 166.84.1.1 (20 Aug 2004 17:47:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:47:27 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!panix!panix1.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160374 In article , Steuard Jensen wrote: >Quoth " Shanahan" in article >> Altho, I'd tend to classify it as 'magical realism' rather than >> 'fantasy'. Hmm...is there a difference? >The biggest difference that I've seen is that "magical realism" gets a >great deal of respect as fine literature, while "fantasy" gets >essentially none. (Well, okay, that's not really true, but it's >close.) Gene Wolfe apparently defined it by saying that "Magical >Realism is Fantasy written in Spanish." > >I've pondered the difference a number of times in the past, but I >really haven't read enough magical realism to feel confident making >strong statements about what characterizes it. I've seen some people >suggest that magical realism differs from fantasy in that the former >makes some "supernatural" elements an intrinsic part of the world >described; others suggest that the difference is that the "unreality" >in magical realism (unlike that in fantasy) is whimsical and has no >consistent rules. To my mind, those definitions are mutually >inconsistent, almost opposites, but what do I know? :) > >In the end, I think that there probably _is_ a difference between >fantasy and magical realism, but I don't think it's an either/or >distinction. There are some stories that are clearly one or the >other, but a lot of things fall somewhere in the middle. I'm nowhere near an expert on this, but my sense is that in works of "fantasy" magic is meant to be taken very literally, as part of the physics of the fantasy world, while in "magical realism" the magic is more dreamlike and metaphorical, and its significance lies mainly in what it evokes in the mind of the reader, rather than its impact on the story's characters and plot. -- John Brock jbrock@panix.com ###### Message-ID: <412643C3.40109@nospam.com> From: Chelsea Christenson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Magical realism vs. fantasy (was Re: OT: Good fantasy books???) References: <41234f01.88334638@news.compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:32:35 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.2.233.234 X-Trace: news.oracle.com 1093027421 138.2.233.234 (Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:43:41 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:43:41 PDT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!chekhov.conxion.net!news.oracle.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160379 John Brock wrote: > I'm nowhere near an expert on this, but my sense is that in works > of "fantasy" magic is meant to be taken very literally, as part of > the physics of the fantasy world, while in "magical realism" the > magic is more dreamlike and metaphorical, and its significance lies > mainly in what it evokes in the mind of the reader, rather than > its impact on the story's characters and plot. I recently re-read Megan Lindholm's "Wizard of the Pigeons," which decided that it was a fantasy but allows the reader to wonder if it's magic realism. (The story is told from the point of view of the Wizard, who is a homeless Vietnam vet in Seattle, so I think it's fair to say that the reader is supposed to wonder about his credibility.) ###### From: "Wade and April" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <41234f01.88334638@news.compuserve.com> <20040820063216.389.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> Subject: Re: Magical realism vs. fantasy (was Re: OT: Good fantasy books???) Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.218.84.124 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mchsi.com X-Trace: attbi_s02 1093054043 12.218.84.124 (Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:07:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:07:23 GMT Organization: MediaCom High Speed Internet Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:07:23 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s02.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160397 "Dirk Thierbach" wrote: > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > > In the end, I think that there probably _is_ a difference between > > fantasy and magical realism, but I don't think it's an either/or > > distinction. There are some stories that are clearly one or the > > other, but a lot of things fall somewhere in the middle. > > I have never heard the term before. Can you give a few examples of books > that are clearly on the side of 'magical realism'? > > - Dirk > The classic that folk usually refer to in the realm of magical realism is Gabriel Garcia-Marquez's "One Hundred Years of Solitude." Another one is Spanish would be Isabel Allende's "The House of the Spirits." In the English language a couple famous examples are Salman Rushdie's "Midnight's Children" and (perhaps) Toni Morrison's "Beloved." My guess about the difference is that in a fantasy story magic and the supernatural are accepted in a way they are not in a magic realism story. The magic in in Garcia-Marquez or Rushdie is usually taken to be extraordinary exceptions to the way the world usually works and is met with astonishment by the characters in the story. In fantasy novels, like LOTR, the characters may be in awe of someone like Gandalf, but no one seems all that shocked that he can do what he does. In the fantasy novel the magical events don't generally challenge the world view of characters whereas in magical realism they often do. In magic realism the magic is usually a symbolic centerpiece in a way it is not in fantasy. That is what I think off the top of my head, at least. Wade ###### From: Eric Root Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Magical realism vs. fantasy (was Re: OT: Good fantasy books???) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:29:34 -0400 Organization: Info Avenue Internet Services, LLC Lines: 24 Message-ID: <412CCC7E.9060304@swva.net> References: <41234f01.88334638@news.compuserve.com> <20040820063216.389.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-143-ct11.citizens.swva.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.infoave.net 1093454974 504672 66.37.75.143 (25 Aug 2004 17:29:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@infoave.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:29:34 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!63.223.20.72.MISMATCH!sjc1.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!news.infoave.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160667 Dirk Thierbach wrote: > Steuard Jensen wrote: > >>Quoth " Shanahan" in article > >>>Altho, I'd tend to classify it as 'magical realism' rather than >>>'fantasy'. Hmm...is there a difference? >> > >>In the end, I think that there probably _is_ a difference between >>fantasy and magical realism, but I don't think it's an either/or >>distinction. There are some stories that are clearly one or the >>other, but a lot of things fall somewhere in the middle. > I have never heard the term before. Can you give a few examples of > books > that are clearly on the side of 'magical realism'? > - Dirk > I haven't heard the term either, but I think that _A Winter's Tale_ is in the same genre as _Little, Big_. ###### From: " Shanahan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Magical realism vs. fantasy (was Re: OT: Good fantasy books???) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:27:40 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <41234f01.88334638@news.compuserve.com> <20040820063216.389.0.NOFFLE@ID-7776.user.dfncis.de> <412CCC7E.9060304@swva.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-706.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160674 Eric Root creatively typed: > Dirk Thierbach wrote: >> I have never heard the term before. Can you give a few examples >> of books that are clearly on the side of 'magical realism'? >> > I haven't heard the term either, but I think that _A Winter's > Tale_ is in the same genre as _Little, Big_. Definitely. And both good books and satisfyingly lengthy to curl up with. Ciaran S. -- "Much human ingenuity has gone into finding the ultimate Before. The current state of knowledge can be summarized thus: In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded. - t. pratchett