NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:40:55 -0500 From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: "Then a great beauty was revealed in him" Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:40:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.203.74.66 X-Trace: sv3-psQVMFlwCKgPYt3dNvflyVtXfc0SNN56JaPh8PQJ0uDhHmo3Xk0GuWU3XugasOlOLdh42rLZ4UYV6xu!f/dM7XPbs3Q9aTPDy04FpFrw9iGqM+Kqa+KDHR98uo4oTWZTOCJdIjFnmnWGcKM1mdVbelLHSICu!plbhYg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.conversent.net!news.conversent.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159071 "Estel, Estel!" she cried, and with that even as he took her hand and kissed it, he fell into sleep. Then a great beauty was revealed in him, so that all who after came there looked on him in wonder; for they saw that the grace of his youth, and the valour of his manhood, and the wisdom and majesty of his age were blended together. And long there he lay, an image of the splendour of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world." "Then a great beauty was revealed in him" I've read this before about great men and women when they die. I, of course, can't think of any right now! But is this a literary or historical tradition of some type? Or what do you think Tolkien was trying to say? It seems significant in some way that I can't describe. More than "he looked good". TIA. T.A. ###### Message-ID: <4107F017.2A42A709@operamail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:27:35 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Then a great beauty was revealed in him" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 X-Trace: DXC=;JY_ > "Estel, Estel!" she cried, and with that even as he took her hand and kissed > it, he fell into sleep. Then a great beauty was revealed in him, so that all > who after came there looked on him in wonder; for they saw that the grace of > his youth, and the valour of his manhood, and the wisdom and majesty of his > age were blended together. And long there he lay, an image of the splendour > of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world." > > "Then a great beauty was revealed in him" > > I've read this before about great men and women when they die. > I, of course, can't think of any right now! > But is this a literary or historical tradition of some type? > Or what do you think Tolkien was trying to say? > It seems significant in some way that I can't describe. > More than "he looked good". > TIA. > > T.A. Its a common trope is saints' lives...the saint's body when dead is incorrupt, utterly healthy, gives off a pleasing scent, is ageless, etc....and of course some of those saints are kings and similar things are told of saintly kings who didn't quite get canonized but are honored nonetheless. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:45:42 -0500 From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <4107F017.2A42A709@operamail.com> Subject: Re: "Then a great beauty was revealed in him" Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:56:59 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.22.243.90 X-Trace: sv3-bUia5Fl8ffjGEqDyDTL4/ZlPiEcLHmdFKfTjN30wKyYBUoJdDkmb7DIPABtK0kqfCJQmTfmQsel0KWL!efwilSrLTN+NIs2CxJRTS7K47V47MeGJamiolCBMyZTvSoDWhYBdAmtyfy6XQWbiEjE8drnlIVKc!LSuXzyhEdkpR5vHE X-Complaints-To: abuse@adelphia.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: copyright@adelphia.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.adelphia.com!news.adelphia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159083 "Larry Swain" wrote in message news:4107F017.2A42A709@operamail.com... > > > The American wrote: > > > > "Estel, Estel!" she cried, and with that even as he took her hand and kissed > > it, he fell into sleep. Then a great beauty was revealed in him, so that all > > who after came there looked on him in wonder; for they saw that the grace of > > his youth, and the valour of his manhood, and the wisdom and majesty of his > > age were blended together. And long there he lay, an image of the splendour > > of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world." > > > > "Then a great beauty was revealed in him" > > > > I've read this before about great men and women when they die. > > I, of course, can't think of any right now! > > But is this a literary or historical tradition of some type? > > Or what do you think Tolkien was trying to say? > > It seems significant in some way that I can't describe. > > More than "he looked good". > > TIA. > > > > T.A. > > Its a common trope is saints' lives...the saint's body when dead > is incorrupt, utterly healthy, gives off a pleasing scent, is > ageless, etc....and of course some of those saints are kings and > similar things are told of saintly kings who didn't quite get > canonized but are honored nonetheless. That's it! As soon as you said Saint's I remembered. I wonder if it predates Saints though. T.A. ###### From: krsmith@nefcom.net (Ken Smith) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Then a great beauty was revealed in him" Date: 4 Aug 2004 09:56:51 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 62 Message-ID: References: <4107F017.2A42A709@operamail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.163.96.134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1091638612 19717 127.0.0.1 (4 Aug 2004 16:56:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:56:52 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159240 In this same passage, Aragorn makes an intriguing statement to Arwen: "...I am the last of the Numenoreans and the latest king of the Elder Days...." I also noted that Arwen addressed him here as "King of the Numenoreans". My questions/comments on this passage: 1. How is Aragorn the "last of the Numenoreans"? Eldarion his son is of course also a lineal descendent of Elendil and so would seem to be as "Numenorean" as Aragorn. Unless Aragorn is making a deathbed "policy statement" that the Reunited Kingdom must no longer think of itself as a "Realm in Exile". 2. How is he the "latest king of the Elder Days"? I always thought the Elder Days were the First Age. Am I missing something here? Thanks, Ken Smith KRnospamSmith@nefcom.net "The American" wrote in message news:... > "Larry Swain" wrote in message > news:4107F017.2A42A709@operamail.com... > > > > > > The American wrote: > > > > > > "Estel, Estel!" she cried, and with that even as he took her hand and > kissed > > > it, he fell into sleep. Then a great beauty was revealed in him, so that > all > > > who after came there looked on him in wonder; for they saw that the > grace of > > > his youth, and the valour of his manhood, and the wisdom and majesty of > his > > > age were blended together. And long there he lay, an image of the > splendour > > > of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world." > > > > > > "Then a great beauty was revealed in him" > > > > > > I've read this before about great men and women when they die. > > > I, of course, can't think of any right now! > > > But is this a literary or historical tradition of some type? > > > Or what do you think Tolkien was trying to say? > > > It seems significant in some way that I can't describe. > > > More than "he looked good". > > > TIA. > > > > > > T.A. > > > > Its a common trope is saints' lives...the saint's body when dead > > is incorrupt, utterly healthy, gives off a pleasing scent, is > > ageless, etc....and of course some of those saints are kings and > > similar things are told of saintly kings who didn't quite get > > canonized but are honored nonetheless. > > That's it! > As soon as you said Saint's I remembered. > I wonder if it predates Saints though. > > T.A. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Then a great beauty was revealed in him" Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:46:49 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <4107F017.2A42A709@operamail.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159241 On 4 Aug 2004 09:56:51 -0700, in rec.arts.books.tolkien krsmith@nefcom.net (Ken Smith) wrote: > >My questions/comments on this passage: >1. How is Aragorn the "last of the Numenoreans"? He is last as there aint none after him (yet). And his son is half elf-spawn. > >2. How is he the "latest king of the Elder Days"? I always thought >the Elder Days were the First Age. This is a poetic way of saying the last of a great (genealogical) line. > >Am I missing something here? I think you are missing the poetic nuances. > the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- When I'm not in my right mind, my left mind gets pretty crowded. ###### From: "Bruce Tucker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Then a great beauty was revealed in him" Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:57:09 -0400 Organization: LexisNexis, Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <4107F017.2A42A709@operamail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.121.40.95 X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 1091645850 2354 10.121.40.95 (4 Aug 2004 18:57:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@lexisnexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 18:57:30 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!dedekind.zen.co.uk!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.visi.com!news-out.octanews.net!petbe.visi.com!ash.uu.net!lexisnexis.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159242 "Ken Smith" wrote > In this same passage, Aragorn makes an intriguing statement to Arwen: > "...I am the last of the Numenoreans and the latest king of the Elder > Days...." I also noted that Arwen addressed him here as "King of the > Numenoreans". > > My questions/comments on this passage: > 1. How is Aragorn the "last of the Numenoreans"? Eldarion his son is > of course also a lineal descendent of Elendil and so would seem to be > as "Numenorean" as Aragorn. Unless Aragorn is making a deathbed > "policy statement" that the Reunited Kingdom must no longer think of > itself as a "Realm in Exile". Interesting point. I had never considered the political or other contextual significance of his words before you brought this up, and perhaps this is what he was trying to convey. Aragorn was the last who looked backwards; after him both rulers and ruled must look forward for their destiny. Another way of looking at it, IMO, is to ask what set the Numenoreans apart from other Men, aside from hving lived on an island. The Numenoreans were special by virtue of having a living tradition, however it may have lapsed in some times and places, of a close relationship with the Eldar (and having learned "true knowledge" from Eonwe and other blessings from the Valar as well, although how much was due to that and how much to association with the Elves we don't know). After Aragorn's death this would exist only as an ancestral memory. I wonder if perhaps this is what he meant in saying he was the last of the Numenoreans - the last to live fully in the way that made the Numenoreans special, i.e., in a way marked by close association with the Eldar. > 2. How is he the "latest king of the Elder Days"? I always thought > the Elder Days were the First Age. IDHTBIFOM, but I believe somewhere in the appendices the author says that the term "Elder Days" was used during the Second and Third Ages to refer only to the First Age, but during the Fourth Age the term came to mean all of the first three ages. -- Bruce Tucker disintegration @ mindspring.com ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Then a great beauty was revealed in him" Date: 4 Aug 2004 20:11:31 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <4107F017.2A42A709@operamail.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de PA9/LNYP+d6vzv0JEDSrHgoXyle2h9pzCTReRExbLnja5WQqaT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159244 On 4 Aug 2004 09:56:51 -0700, Ken Smith wrote: > In this same passage, Aragorn makes an intriguing statement to Arwen: > "...I am the last of the Numenoreans and the latest king of the Elder > Days...." I also noted that Arwen addressed him here as "King of the > Numenoreans". > > My questions/comments on this passage: > 1. How is Aragorn the "last of the Numenoreans"? Eldarion his son is > of course also a lineal descendent of Elendil and so would seem to be > as "Numenorean" as Aragorn. Unless Aragorn is making a deathbed > "policy statement" that the Reunited Kingdom must no longer think of > itself as a "Realm in Exile". I think that's partly what he means. I think he also means that his son, having Arwen's lineage as well, cannot be considered a Numenorean. > > 2. How is he the "latest king of the Elder Days"? I always thought > the Elder Days were the First Age. > > Am I missing something here? I think the usage here is a little broader, including all ages up until the ages of Man. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### Message-ID: <41115A9F.10195245@operamail.com> Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:52:31 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Then a great beauty was revealed in him" References: <4107F017.2A42A709@operamail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 X-Trace: DXC=Z8mAUkeFF9m8ia00;EaF7`0R]m=BkYWIg:6bU3OT9S9jXGQSl12JFnfU5D]MWcGNlfP9[Y;aKKH8f X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!c03.atl99!c01.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159251 With the War of the Ring and Sauron's demise, the wars and concerns of the first three ages are wrapped up and concluded in Aragorn and Arwen's kingdom and their union. Thus, Aragorn is the capstone for both Elrond's line and Elros's line; but he is also the fulfillment in a sense of all the houses of men from the 1st age. But it took all the other peoples of Middle Earth besides the direct descendants of the Numenoreans to make the renewed kingdom possible. Thus, Aragorn is the last of the Numenoreans, what follows after him is new and forward looking, no longer fighting the wars against Morgoth and Sauron. Just my take > -- ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Then a great beauty was revealed in him" Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 20:45:59 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <4107F017.2A42A709@operamail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159289 "Bruce Tucker" <"Bruce Tucker" > wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >IDHTBIFOM, but I believe somewhere in the appendices the author says >that the term "Elder Days" was used during the Second and Third Ages to >refer only to the First Age, but during the Fourth Age the term came to >mean all of the first three ages. Yup. See the fourth paragraph of LotR App B: "In the Fourth Age the earlier ages were often called the Elder Days; but that name was properly given only to the days before the casting out of Morgoth. The histories of that time are not recorded here." Most people don't think about _reading_ The Tale of Years, but I recommend it strongly both because it puts events in perspective and because it gives some information that's not in the story proper. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm