From: tr2267@hotmail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Leaf by Niggle Date: 16 Jun 2004 22:17:14 GMT Lines: 6 Message-ID: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de Qyo0CO+lJ8Z1Vg/EfSpPBQuoMym3ZVyBsZI5OqLpfsTUAw38YH X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155302 I read this story and didn't understand what was going on. Can anyone who has read it tell me what was going on and if there was a point to the story? Did you like or dislike the story? My reaction was that reading it was a waste of time, and I would like to hear if others agree/disagree. ###### Message-ID: <40D0CB37.A31816B2@operamail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:35:35 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 X-Trace: DXC=MoBD I read this story and didn't understand what was going on. Can anyone who > has read it tell me what was going on and if there was a point to the story? > Did you like or dislike the story? My reaction was that reading it was > a waste of time, and I would like to hear if others agree/disagree. I love the story. Love it very much. I would now read (or read again) Tolkien's essay on "On Fairy Stories"--Leaf by Niggle contains and illustrates much that Tolkien explicity says in the essay. As for what it is "about", well the essential plot is this: Niggle is a small time painter who lives just outside the village and has one great work on which he continuously works, but has constant interruptions, from Niggle's point of view. What's more, he must prepare for his "journey'" (death) [laying up treasures in heaven by good works]. His neighbor is Parish, a Ol' Gaffer type, more into gardening than painting and who can not figure out what Niggle is working or why while his yard and garden are in a shambles. Well as you know, Niggle must make his journey, regardless, and he is unprepared. So off he goes to purgatory where he works until he is "cured" and a less self absorbed. Eventually he gets packed off to a new place, to essentially create it. He is faced with things like planting and growing and such. He wishes that he had Parish there, he knew all about that sort of thing. Soon, Parish shows up. And together, they plant, nurture and grow things, etc all under the spreading boughs of the great tree. In the end, Niggle goes "further up and further in" if I might use a Narnianism, and then realizes that what he and Parish have been up to is making Niggle's great painting a physical reality. That's an oversimplification and takes all the beauty out of it. And it might help. Then again, you could be saying, "Well I got that part! Duh!" In either case, I still love that story and would be happy to discuss it. ljs ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <40D0CB37.A31816B2@operamail.com> Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Lines: 29 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:48:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1087426131 82.43.162.58 (Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:48:51 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:48:51 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news2.telebyte.nl!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155307 Larry Swain wrote: > tr2267@hotmail.com wrote: > >> I read this story and didn't understand what was going on. Can >> anyone who has read it tell me what was going on and if there was a >> point to the story? Did you like or dislike the story? My reaction >> was that reading it was >> a waste of time, and I would like to hear if others agree/disagree. Disagree. Very nice story. > I love the story. Love it very much. I would now read (or read > again) Tolkien's essay on "On Fairy Stories"--Leaf by Niggle contains > and illustrates much that Tolkien explicity says in the essay. > > As for what it is "about", well the essential plot is this: Larry, you forgot to say _why_ Tolkien wrote it, and what it meant to Tolkien. That is a very important part of the story. And also what applicability the story has... Who would Niggle be applied to? Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Alan Reynolds" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:57:42 +0100 Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.134.0.222 X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 1087426690 3354 217.134.0.222 (16 Jun 2004 22:58:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 2004 22:58:10 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155311 wrote in message news:2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de... > > I read this story and didn't understand what was going on. Can anyone who > has read it tell me what was going on and if there was a point to the story? > Did you like or dislike the story? My reaction was that reading it was > a waste of time, and I would like to hear if others agree/disagree. > I think this is one of Tolkien's best short stories. As Larry Swain said, it's about an artist's (Niggle's) struggle to artistic perfection, cut short by his journey (death) and his time in Purgatory (Tolkien was a Catholic), then the realisation of his Picture in another life. It's a deeply moving and spiritual work. It's also unique in Tolkien's writings, in two ways. First, it's the nearest thing to an allegory that JRRT has done. Tolkien is famous for disliking allegories. The second is that this is the only story that Tolkien did'nt "niggle" over! - he said that he woke up one morning with it in his head and simply wrote it down. It was during the War, in the 1940s; he was writing LotR and despairing of ever finishing it. So one can see that Niggle _might_ be Tolkien, in which case his Picture _might_ be LotR; and the story tells of Tolkien's fear of not living long enough to finish it. (he was in his fifties by then). That is the background to this story - see Carpenter's Biography of Tolkien; and Tolkien's _Letters_, and Tom Shippey's _The Road to Middle earth_ for more. A waste of time? oh no. Alan ps This story also has one of my favourite lines in it. '"I think a little gentle treatment is called for now" said the SecondVoice"'. Personally, I think we could all stand a little gentle treatment now and again. I know I could. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:48:59 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <9eq1d0lelqo7bb6u53d2t7d6lo3mfnobsm@4ax.com> References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155331 On 16 Jun 2004 22:17:14 GMT, tr2267@hotmail.com wrote: > >I read this story and didn't understand what was going on. Niggle is taking a long time to paint a tree. >Can anyone who >has read it tell me what was going on and if there was a point to the story? (see above) and yes, absolutely. >Did you like or dislike the story? I *love* it! >My reaction was that reading it was >a waste of time, and I would like to hear if others agree/disagree. I disagree, but I can understand why, with your obvious depth of understanding, you didn't. Wait until you grow up. the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Frisbeetarianism: The belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:51:07 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <40D0CB37.A31816B2@operamail.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155332 On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:35:35 -0500, Larry Swain wrote: > >I love the story. Love it very much. I would now read (or read again) >Tolkien's essay on "On Fairy Stories"--Leaf by Niggle contains and illustrates >help. Then again, you could be saying, "Well I got that part! Duh!" In either >case, I still love that story and would be happy to discuss it. > >ljs Oh, Larry! You are too nice for words! Were you a kindergarden teacher before you got your present position? the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Frisbeetarianism: The belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck. ###### From: Mercedes McTaggart Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:10:36 +0100 Organization: Quite a lot actually Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> Reply-To: mercymct Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de rj1U9Q8cqMLG0OTJXPexjACG9wQsT2paWZpyrUZq1hRwBDUDk= X-Orig-Path: yahoo.com!mercy User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U () Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!feed.news.tiscali.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155333 In message <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de>, tr2267@hotmail.com wrote > >I read this story and didn't understand what was going on. Can anyone who >has read it tell me what was going on and if there was a point to the story? >Did you like or dislike the story? My reaction was that reading it was >a waste of time, and I would like to hear if others agree/disagree. > Whilst I cannot think of anything to add to the excellent comments already made by other contributors to this thread, especially Larry Swain (it's late and my tiny brain is tired!) I would like to add my voice to all those who feel this is amongst Tolkien's finest work. I adore the story and find it immensely moving and uplifting. I humbly suggest you give it another try! -- Mercedes McTaggart They don't know what they don't know... ###### From: tr2267@hotmail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Date: 17 Jun 2004 01:57:01 GMT Lines: 49 Message-ID: <2jcc3dFvtl7nU1@uni-berlin.de> References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <40D0CB37.A31816B2@operamail.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de nOfDg/cUJdQWmrI7fJe04AIhoi5t1GdEChwIGmlwdrW/sUzjUt X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155337 Okay thanks for your great explanation. With this in mind I may read it again someday. I assumed that Niggle was like Tolkien but I wasn't paying much attention after the 'journey'. In article <40D0CB37.A31816B2@operamail.com>, Larry Swain wrote: > > >tr2267@hotmail.com wrote: > >> I read this story and didn't understand what was going on. Can anyone who >> has read it tell me what was going on and if there was a point to the story? >> Did you like or dislike the story? My reaction was that reading it was >> a waste of time, and I would like to hear if others agree/disagree. > >I love the story. Love it very much. I would now read (or read again) >Tolkien's essay on "On Fairy Stories"--Leaf by Niggle contains and illustrates >much that Tolkien explicity says in the essay. > >As for what it is "about", well the essential plot is this: >Niggle is a small time painter who lives just outside the village and has one >great work on which he continuously works, but has constant interruptions, from >Niggle's point of view. What's more, he must prepare for his "journey'" (death) >[laying up treasures in heaven by good works]. His neighbor is Parish, a Ol' >Gaffer type, more into gardening than painting and who can not figure out what >Niggle is working or why while his yard and garden are in a shambles. Well as >you know, Niggle must make his journey, regardless, and he is unprepared. > >So off he goes to purgatory where he works until he is "cured" and a less self >absorbed. Eventually he gets packed off to a new place, to essentially create >it. He is faced with things like planting and growing and such. He wishes that >he had Parish there, he knew all about that sort of thing. Soon, Parish shows >up. And together, they plant, nurture and grow things, etc all under the >spreading boughs of the great tree. > >In the end, Niggle goes "further up and further in" if I might use a Narnianism, >and then realizes that what he and Parish have been up to is making Niggle's >great painting a physical reality. > >That's an oversimplification and takes all the beauty out of it. And it might >help. Then again, you could be saying, "Well I got that part! Duh!" In either >case, I still love that story and would be happy to discuss it. > >ljs > ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 37 Message-ID: <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1087497858 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:44:18 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:44:18 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: 6ElAc-5190-25-9261@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 7fb8dab5 b5833f84 76fea5e4 68edf87e a92384f5 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:44:18 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.esat.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155398 Quoth mercymct in article : > In message <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de>, tr2267@hotmail.com wrote > >Did you like or dislike the story? My reaction was that reading it > >was a waste of time, and I would like to hear if others > >agree/disagree. > Whilst I cannot think of anything to add to the excellent comments > already made by other contributors to this thread, especially Larry > Swain (it's late and my tiny brain is tired!) I would like to add my > voice to all those who feel this is amongst Tolkien's finest work. I > adore the story and find it immensely moving and uplifting. I humbly > suggest you give it another try! What she said! Me too! :) I absolutely love "Leaf by Niggle", despite the fact that I dislike allegory just as Tolkien did (and I'm not even Christian, so the fact that I didn't get annoyed by this thoroughly Christian story is quite something). It's just beautiful, and if there actually is an afterlife, I desperately hope that it will be something like what Tolkien described here. Oh, and to reply to a point in Larry Swain's post in this thread, he commented: 'Niggle goes "further up and further in" if I might use a Narnianism'. In fact, I've argued here in the past that the whole "further up and further in" idea in Lewis's _The Last Battle_ is in fact a "Niggleism". Tolkien's story seems to have been written first (by 1939, and published in 1947, while Lewis's book is copyrighted 1956), and I would be surprised if he hadn't shared it with Lewis. Steuard Jensen ###### Message-ID: <40D1EBDC.365B851C@operamail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:07:08 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 X-Trace: DXC=R57nle0Sgh5[Y:;b50B:e<0R]m=BkYWI7:6bU3OT9S9:<3W;f[3=XO=U5D]MWcGNl6D_8We>9TgB: X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155401 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > In fact, I've argued here in the past that the whole "further up and > further in" idea in Lewis's _The Last Battle_ is in fact a > "Niggleism". Tolkien's story seems to have been written first (by > 1939, and published in 1947, while Lewis's book is copyrighted 1956), > and I would be surprised if he hadn't shared it with Lewis. > > Steuard Jensen Hi Steuard, HMM, my comment I guess was not about the idea so much as the phrase itself--as far as I know Tolkien doesn't use it. But I'd agree that the idea is in Niggle, which predates the Narnia series. Both I think derive the idea from Plato and Chriatian Platonism of the literature they both read. But I can see how you could make the argument that "further up and further in" is a "Niggleism." ljs ###### From: Mercedes McTaggart Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:20:32 +0100 Organization: Quite a lot actually Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> Reply-To: mercymct Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de PFaHt+YMLFsWzFpH5/1ZRQSfl9R103ls3nz6kl3sJEwJZviYI= X-Orig-Path: yahoo.com!mercy User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U () Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155402 In message <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu>, Steuard Jensen wrote (snippety snip): >> Whilst I cannot think of anything to add to the excellent comments >> already made by other contributors to this thread, especially Larry >> Swain (it's late and my tiny brain is tired!) I would like to add my >> voice to all those who feel this is amongst Tolkien's finest work. I >> adore the story and find it immensely moving and uplifting. I humbly >> suggest you give it another try! > >What she said! Me too! :) > >I absolutely love "Leaf by Niggle", despite the fact that I dislike >allegory just as Tolkien did (and I'm not even Christian, so the fact >that I didn't get annoyed by this thoroughly Christian story is quite >something). It's just beautiful, and if there actually is an >afterlife, I desperately hope that it will be something like what >Tolkien described here. I couldn't have put it better myself. I think that the following tells us much more of value about the mind of the man who created the epics we all love than any amount of 'FAQ's' on 'Racism in Tolkien's writings'!!! "Before him stood the Tree, his tree, finished. If you could say that of a tree that was alive, it's leaves opening, its branches growing and bending in the wind that Niggle had so often felt or guessed, and had so often failed to catch. He gazed at the Tree, and slowly he lifted his arms and opened them wide." Did Tolkien believe that true artists get the opportunity to perfect the work they could but inadequately express here, elsewhere? I would like to think so. He would not be alone in such a belief. Mozart often complained that he could never reproduce the divine music he heard with his _inner_ ear, on earth. >In fact, I've argued here in the past that the whole "further up and >further in" idea in Lewis's _The Last Battle_ is in fact a >"Niggleism". Tolkien's story seems to have been written first (by >1939, and published in 1947, while Lewis's book is copyrighted 1956), >and I would be surprised if he hadn't shared it with Lewis. That seems very probable to me. -- Mercedes McTaggart They don't know what they don't know... ###### From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Date: 17 Jun 2004 13:49:12 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3b26e128.0406171249.49d2f0da@posting.google.com> References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <40D0CB37.A31816B2@operamail.com> <2jcc3dFvtl7nU1@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.148.129.177 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1087505353 8330 127.0.0.1 (17 Jun 2004 20:49:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:49:13 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155410 tr2267@hotmail.com wrote in message news:<2jcc3dFvtl7nU1@uni-berlin.de>... > Okay thanks for your great explanation. With this in mind I may read it again > someday. I assumed that Niggle was like Tolkien but I wasn't paying > much attention after the 'journey'. If you watch the movie "What dreams may come", starring Robin Williams and Cuba Gooding, Jr., you will get an idea of how the "Leaf by Niggle" story has influenced some modern entertainment. A lot of people enjoy it (I do not) and there are homages to the concept, if not to the story itself, in many stories. ###### From: "Alan Reynolds" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:44:33 +0100 Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.134.49.152 X-Trace: newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk 1087508679 9171 217.134.49.152 (17 Jun 2004 21:44:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 2004 21:44:39 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155415 "Mercedes McTaggart" wrote in message news:Drpah9EA8e0AFw5r@nonone.noonehere.com... > In message <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu>,> > I think that the following tells us much more of value about the mind of > the man who created the epics we all love than any amount of 'FAQ's' on > 'Racism in Tolkien's writings'!!! > > "Before him stood the Tree, his tree, finished. If you could say that of > a tree that was alive, it's leaves opening, its branches growing and > bending in the wind that Niggle had so often felt or guessed, and had so > often failed to catch. He gazed at the Tree, and slowly he lifted his > arms and opened them wide." Yes, I love that part too. Carpenter tells us in his biography of Tolkien that some US admirers held a memorial service shortly after Tolkien's death, where 'Leaf by Niggle' was read in it's entirety. Must have been v. moving, I expect. Alan ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> <40D1EBDC.365B851C@operamail.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 33 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1087514129 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:15:29 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:15:29 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: lCpAc-7371-25-10898@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 8aa25761 b9be3a43 f1adb603 661f2564 7ea20780 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:15:29 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155429 Quoth Larry Swain in article <40D1EBDC.365B851C@operamail.com>: > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > In fact, I've argued here in the past that the whole "further up > > and further in" idea in Lewis's _The Last Battle_ is in fact a > > "Niggleism". > HMM, my comment I guess was not about the idea so much as the phrase > itself--as far as I know Tolkien doesn't use it. Oh, I completely agree with you there. I just leapt at the opportunity to share my Niggle-Narnia observation with a largely new audience. :) > Both I think derive the idea from Plato and Chriatian Platonism of > the literature they both read. I had the same thought, back when my wife (just a girlfriend at that point) took a class that discussed the Gnostic Gospels. I'd read a reasonable amount of Plato myself, and some of the things that she was seeing in that class reminded me an awful lot of both of these stories. > But I can see how you could make the argument that "further up and > further in" is a "Niggleism." The thing that really "clinches it" for me (that is, that convinces me that there was probably direct borrowing between the two rather than just mutual inheritance from Plato) is the significance of the Mountains in both tales. I don't recal anything of the sort in Plato's writings, anyway, and the imagery of the two stories in that respect feels very similar to me. Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> <40D1EBDC.365B851C@operamail.com> Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Lines: 55 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:38:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1087515508 82.43.162.58 (Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:38:28 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:38:28 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155432 Steuard Jensen wrote: > Quoth Larry Swain in article > <40D1EBDC.365B851C@operamail.com>: >> Steuard Jensen wrote: >>> In fact, I've argued here in the past that the whole "further up >>> and further in" idea in Lewis's _The Last Battle_ is in fact a >>> "Niggleism". >> Both I think derive the idea from Plato and Chriatian Platonism of >> the literature they both read. > > I had the same thought, back when my wife (just a girlfriend at that > point) took a class that discussed the Gnostic Gospels. I'd read a > reasonable amount of Plato myself, and some of the things that she was > seeing in that class reminded me an awful lot of both of these > stories. I think there was something else prodding your subconscious... You were probably remembering the quote from 'The Last Battle' from the last chapter 'Further Up and Further In', where Professor (the Lord) Digory says of the different Narnias: " 'And of course it is different; as different as a real thing is from a shadow or as waking life is from a dream.' His voice stirred everyone like a trumpet as he spoke these words: but when he added under his breath 'It's all in Plato, all in Plato: bless me, what _do_ they teach them in these schools!' the older ones laughed." >> But I can see how you could make the argument that "further up and >> further in" is a "Niggleism." > > The thing that really "clinches it" for me (that is, that convinces me > that there was probably direct borrowing between the two rather than > just mutual inheritance from Plato) is the significance of the > Mountains in both tales. I don't recal anything of the sort in > Plato's writings, anyway, and the imagery of the two stories in that > respect feels very similar to me. Hmm. With that Narnia movie (is it being filmed at the moment?), it would be appropriate to have some more Narnia vs. ME discussions here. Trouble is how to avoid all the attacks on Lewis's open allegories versus Tolkien's more subtle use of Christian themes. I'd like to discuss the substance of the books and their similarities and differences, without diverging too much (though it is needed) into the differences of the authors and their philosophies. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: tr2267@hotmail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Date: 18 Jun 2004 02:18:44 GMT Lines: 10 Message-ID: <2jf1o4F10t5hkU2@uni-berlin.de> References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <40D0CB37.A31816B2@operamail.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1IHpRRMxK+EAxZ+M+xwJHAqx69v7ZievpWBAOxjWrWn8B8Za67 X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155457 In article <40D0CB37.A31816B2@operamail.com>, Larry Swain wrote: > > >In the end, Niggle goes "further up and further in" if I might use a Narnianism, >and then realizes that what he and Parish have been up to is making Niggle's >great painting a physical reality. Does Niggle's painting remind anyone of Eru's Music? ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:05:53 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155474 On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:44:33 +0100, "Alan Reynolds" wrote: > >Yes, I love that part too. Carpenter tells us in his biography of Tolkien >that some US admirers held a memorial service shortly after Tolkien's death, >where 'Leaf by Niggle' was read in it's entirety. Must have been v. moving, >I expect. > >Alan > But tr2267@hotmail.com would not have understood *that* either. And then he would have gotten abusive. the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal ###### Message-ID: <40D268A8.F8C8791A@operamail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:59:36 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <40D0CB37.A31816B2@operamail.com> <2jf1o4F10t5hkU2@uni-berlin.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 X-Trace: DXC=`XGLMS^i4hMfD10SUN>ai^6]`9lRQJ^V_N\3= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!diablo.voicenet.com!199.184.165.233.MISMATCH!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155477 Sure....good artistry whether the poet, the painter, the musician have long been considered both as forms of worship but also as doorways to the sublime and divine. (Well I guess when you get down to it, worship and the doorways to the divine are the same thing.) Anyway, the idea is something current in paganism, Judaism, and Christianity. tr2267@hotmail.com wrote: > In article <40D0CB37.A31816B2@operamail.com>, > Larry Swain wrote: > > > > > >In the end, Niggle goes "further up and further in" if I might use a Narnianism, > >and then realizes that what he and Parish have been up to is making Niggle's > >great painting a physical reality. > > Does Niggle's painting remind anyone of Eru's Music? ###### Message-ID: <40D26C1E.A4074CA7@operamail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:14:22 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> <40D1EBDC.365B851C@operamail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 X-Trace: DXC=?EM2cMSg]@39k<8U2i:0S80R]m=BkYWI7:6bU3OT9S9:k<`7m^U@[l1SUN>ai^6]`9dB > The thing that really "clinches it" for me (that is, that convinces me > that there was probably direct borrowing between the two rather than > just mutual inheritance from Plato) is the significance of the > Mountains in both tales. I don't recal anything of the sort in > Plato's writings, anyway, and the imagery of the two stories in that > respect feels very similar to me. > > Steuard Jensen Heya Steuard, Well, not from Plato, no. But keep in mind that both men read the Bible, and especially in the Christian Old Testament and the first gospel, mountains play a significant role as the places where divine visitations occur and where the gods come from. Even in Greco-Roman mythologies most of the gods dwell on Olympus. So the role of the mountains in both works may indeed have come from common sources. I'll admit though that it is probably both cross pollination and common sources here. I've always meant to track this one down further but never have. I guess this might be a good time to start. Why do mountains bound the world? Finally I'll add that Lewis does use this same motif in _The Pilgrim's Regress_ published in the early 30s (book out of reach at the moment). so if we go by cross-pollination, Lewis must have influenced Tolkien. ;) ljs ###### Message-ID: <40D26D34.52373710@operamail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:19:00 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> <40D1EBDC.365B851C@operamail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 X-Trace: DXC=lXEB0k]^k:FD7I\oL:B:IG0R]m=BkYWIG:6bU3OT9S9Jk6m03e5MAXMSUN>ai^6]`IN1g`@ZlB;MI X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155480 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > > > > > > Hmm. With that Narnia movie (is it being filmed at the moment?), it > would be appropriate to have some more Narnia vs. ME discussions here. > Trouble is how to avoid all the attacks on Lewis's open allegories > versus Tolkien's more subtle use of Christian themes. I'd like to > discuss the substance of the books and their similarities and > differences, without diverging too much (though it is needed) into the > differences of the authors and their philosophies. > I'd be game for such a discussion. Ground rule: we all know that Lewis loved allegory; we know Tolkien didn't. Let's not belabor the obvious. ljs ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:19:09 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> <40D1EBDC.365B851C@operamail.com> <40D26D34.52373710@operamail.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 29 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155489 On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:19:00 -0500, Larry Swain wrote: > >Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > >> Hmm. With that Narnia movie (is it being filmed at the moment?), it >> would be appropriate to have some more Narnia vs. ME discussions here. >> Trouble is how to avoid all the attacks on Lewis's open allegories >> versus Tolkien's more subtle use of Christian themes. I'd like to >> discuss the substance of the books and their similarities and >> differences, without diverging too much (though it is needed) into the >> differences of the authors and their philosophies. > >I'd be game for such a discussion. Ground rule: we all know that Lewis >loved allegory; we know Tolkien didn't. Let's not belabor the obvious. > >ljs Except that Smith of Wootton-Major is an allegory, so even the Great Tolkien could stoop so low.... Yeah, I know. He was getting old .... the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "The woman gave to me and I did teunce." -- Adman in the Garbage of Eating' ###### From: Ostadan@theonering.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Date: 18 Jun 2004 09:40:41 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix5.panix.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1087566041 28831 166.84.1.5 (18 Jun 2004 13:40:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:40:41 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!elk.ncren.net!news2.wam.umd.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!panix5.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155500 In article , Alan Reynolds wrote: > >> "Before him stood the Tree, his tree, finished. If you could say that of >> a tree that was alive, it's leaves opening, its branches growing and >> bending in the wind that Niggle had so often felt or guessed, and had so >> often failed to catch. He gazed at the Tree, and slowly he lifted his >> arms and opened them wide." > > >Yes, I love that part too. Carpenter tells us in his biography of Tolkien >that some US admirers held a memorial service shortly after Tolkien's death, >where 'Leaf by Niggle' was read in it's entirety. Must have been v. moving, >I expect. The Mythopoeic Society sent JRRT a large birthday card for his 80th, with a picture of Niggle, seen from behind, his arms spread wide, before the Tree, with the caption, "It's a Gift!" below. Inside were the words, "Thank you for _your_ gift!" and many signatures. ###### Message-ID: <40D2F9C7.798E9CE3@operamail.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:18:47 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> <40D1EBDC.365B851C@operamail.com> <40D26D34.52373710@operamail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 50 X-Trace: DXC=9F06L0R]m=BkYWIG:6bU3OT9S9JBB`C@e]Wj6DF9gVG9bnM2HbDBN_NABN5N X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!nntp.abs.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155503 the softrat wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:19:00 -0500, Larry Swain > wrote: > > > >Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > > > >> Hmm. With that Narnia movie (is it being filmed at the moment?), it > >> would be appropriate to have some more Narnia vs. ME discussions here. > >> Trouble is how to avoid all the attacks on Lewis's open allegories > >> versus Tolkien's more subtle use of Christian themes. I'd like to > >> discuss the substance of the books and their similarities and > >> differences, without diverging too much (though it is needed) into the > >> differences of the authors and their philosophies. > > > >I'd be game for such a discussion. Ground rule: we all know that Lewis > >loved allegory; we know Tolkien didn't. Let's not belabor the obvious. > > > >ljs > > Except that Smith of Wootton-Major is an allegory, so even the Great > Tolkien could stoop so low.... > > Yeah, I know. He was getting old .... > > Heya, I disagree. The most I'd be willing to say is that there are allegorical elements in the story, but not that it is an allegory. If it is the latter there are too many important elements in the story that do not have real world parallels. For example, if Tolkien is Smith, who is Alf? And who is Nokes? And what is there parallel to the eating of the fay star? (speaking of which, I'm reading Jitterbug Perfume by Tom Robbins which also has a cake eating episode in it in which a "prize" is found in someone's mouth and changes his life; there however the parallels end.) Since LoTR et al were entered upon by inventing and developing languages, I think saying that the cake episode for Smith is not really parallel to inventing languages. Smith is not an orphan, etc. So I think we may draw some parallels between the story and Tolkien's life and it probably portrays some of the concern that Tolkien had about his "great work", but I wouldn't call the story an allegory. ljs ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> <40D1EBDC.365B851C@operamail.com> <40D26D34.52373710@operamail.com> <40D2F9C7.798E9CE3@operamail.com> Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Lines: 18 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:12:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1087589576 82.43.162.58 (Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:12:56 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:12:56 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155541 Larry Swain wrote: [about Smith of Wootton Major] > So I think we may draw some parallels between the story and Tolkien's > life and it probably portrays some of the concern that Tolkien had > about his "great work", but I wouldn't call the story an allegory. I thought Tolkien said it was, but having looked up some Letters, I see that he said that Leaf by Niggle was the allegorical tale. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:31:04 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> <40D1EBDC.365B851C@operamail.com> <40D26D34.52373710@operamail.com> <40D2F9C7.798E9CE3@operamail.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!tethys.csu.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155556 On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:18:47 -0500, Larry Swain wrote: > >Heya, > >I disagree. You're wrong, but entitled (I guess). >For example, if Tolkien is Smith, who is Alf? I fergets. >And who is Nokes? Conventional society in general. >And what is there parallel to the eating of the fay star? Well, the star is just an 'admission ticket'. JRRT's ticket was different. But he had one! >Smith is not an orphan, etc. He might as well be....even Tolkien had Family...on both sides! > >So I think we may draw some parallels between the story and Tolkien's life >and it probably portrays some of the concern that Tolkien had about his >"great work", but I wouldn't call the story an allegory. > OK. So *you* wouldn't..... Wes žu hal! the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Question _your own_ authority. ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <40D0CB37.A31816B2@operamail.com> <2jf1o4F10t5hkU2@uni-berlin.de> Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 23:48:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.225.105 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1087602516 65.26.225.105 (Fri, 18 Jun 2004 18:48:36 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 18:48:36 CDT Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!c03.atl99!c01.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!elnk-atl-nf1!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155567 tr2267@hotmail.com wrote: > In article <40D0CB37.A31816B2@operamail.com>, > Larry Swain wrote: >> >> >> In the end, Niggle goes "further up and further in" if I might use a >> Narnianism, and then realizes that what he and Parish have been up >> to is making Niggle's great painting a physical reality. > > Does Niggle's painting remind anyone of Eru's Music? It reminds me of Tolkien's mythology. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### Message-ID: <40D45476.9DD953A5@operamail.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 09:57:58 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> <40D1EBDC.365B851C@operamail.com> <40D26D34.52373710@operamail.com> <40D2F9C7.798E9CE3@operamail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 X-Trace: DXC=^einDV23Ulb`Nk`JZHdB27e X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news2.telebyte.nl!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!diablo.voicenet.com!199.184.165.233.MISMATCH!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155613 the softrat wrote: > > > > OK. So *you* wouldn't..... > Oh, come softrat. You know that I am the arbiter of all things. Fall into line or I shall flame you like MM cause I can't stand anyone disagreeing with me. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:12:38 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <9tl8d05c1jjemdqa64r9rfsgu0onnr8v8n@4ax.com> References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> <40D1EBDC.365B851C@operamail.com> <40D26D34.52373710@operamail.com> <40D2F9C7.798E9CE3@operamail.com> <40D45476.9DD953A5@operamail.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155616 On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 09:57:58 -0500, Larry Swain wrote: > >Oh, come softrat. You know that I am the arbiter of all things. Fall into >line or I shall flame you like MM cause I can't stand anyone disagreeing with >me. > I have but one answer to that..... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! :-) One MM is too much! the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Look, if I could make one thing perfectly clear, then believe me I would. --- Justin Alistair Lowde ###### Lines: 23 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mrmaxiemaxwell@aol.comnospam (Maxie) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 20 Jun 2004 13:24:15 GMT References: <40D26D34.52373710@operamail.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Message-ID: <20040620092415.04811.00000185@mb-m24.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!freenix!skynet.be!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155732 Larry Swain wrote, >I'd be game for such a discussion. Ground rule: we all know that Lewis >loved allegory; we know Tolkien didn't. Let's not belabor the obvious. I'm not sure your ground rule is so obvious. Taking Professor Lewis' most famous series, I don't believe the Chronicles of Narnia ARE an allegory, all told. (I'll concede that there are some allegorical elements in _The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe_, and a few in _The Last Battle_, but the five middle books aren't allegorical at all as I use the term. And LWW fails the strictest test for allegorical writing: there's no one-to-one connection between most the characters and abstract principles or historical/religious/mythic figures, the exception being Aslan (who isn't supposed to REPRESENT jesus, but to actually BE Jesus as he appears in another world). Just a thought, MM Maxie Maxwell "Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey ... The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon." G. K. Chesterton ###### Message-ID: <40D5B40C.453FD6CF@operamail.com> Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:58:04 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle References: <40D26D34.52373710@operamail.com> <20040620092415.04811.00000185@mb-m24.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 X-Trace: DXC==L8?LbkWP>J>8dadjO>C2A0R]m=BkYWIG:6bU3OT9S9Jk6m03e5MAXMU5D]MWcGNlF_:TY:;Sk?ZD X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:155736 Maxie wrote: > Larry Swain wrote, > > >I'd be game for such a discussion. Ground rule: we all know that Lewis > >loved allegory; we know Tolkien didn't. Let's not belabor the obvious. > > I'm not sure your ground rule is so obvious. Taking Professor Lewis' most > famous series, I don't believe the Chronicles of Narnia ARE an allegory, all > told. (I'll concede that there are some allegorical elements in _The Lion, the > Witch, and the Wardrobe_, and a few in _The Last Battle_, but the five middle > books aren't allegorical at all as I use the term. And LWW fails the strictest > test for allegorical writing: there's no one-to-one connection between most the > characters and abstract principles or historical/religious/mythic figures, the > exception being Aslan (who isn't supposed to REPRESENT jesus, but to actually > BE Jesus as he appears in another world). > > Hey Maxie, Well, let me point out first that I did NOT say that Lewis WROTE allegory, I said he LOVED allegory. The latter statement is true: Lewis loved Spenser and Langland and cites them often in various works. (He also loved Dante). The same can not be said of Tolkien. I would agree with your assessment of the Narnia series. There are in many of Lewis' works allegorical elements without being strict allegories. And one could push your assessment of Aslan to other allegorical elements: the view of "heaven" in the LB for example is not an allegory of heaven, but simply how heaven appears in that world. And so on. ljs ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> <40D1EBDC.365B851C@operamail.com> <40D26D34.52373710@operamail.com> Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle Lines: 21 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 21:18:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1088371089 82.43.162.58 (Sun, 27 Jun 2004 22:18:09 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 22:18:09 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:156953 Larry Swain wrote: > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >> Hmm. With that Narnia movie (is it being filmed at the moment?), it >> would be appropriate to have some more Narnia vs. ME discussions >> here. > I'd be game for such a discussion. Ground rule: we all know that > Lewis loved allegory; we know Tolkien didn't. Let's not belabor the > obvious. I'm drawing a blank here. _Were_ there any similarities between ME and Narnia? I could talk about Narnia, but that would be a bit off-topic without a Tolkien connection. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### Message-ID: <40DFA9AE.A5C3621C@operamail.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 00:16:30 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Leaf by Niggle References: <2jbv79FtvfdgU3@uni-berlin.de> <6ElAc.31$25.9266@news.uchicago.edu> <40D1EBDC.365B851C@operamail.com> <40D26D34.52373710@operamail.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 X-Trace: DXC=E_T5dMnZEj_mZCC?C4oiS[0R]m=BkYWIW:6bU3OT9S9Z8VOlHC\7XM]F9gVG9bnM2XJM@VKDPl2KV X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:157034  

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

Larry Swain <theswain@operamail.com> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

>> Hmm. With that Narnia movie (is it being filmed at the moment?), it
>> would be appropriate to have some more Narnia vs. ME discussions
>> here.

> I'd be game for such a discussion.  Ground rule: we all know that
> Lewis loved allegory; we know Tolkien didn't.  Let's not belabor the
> obvious.

I'm drawing a blank here. _Were_ there any similarities between ME and
Narnia? I could talk about Narnia, but that would be a bit off-topic
without a Tolkien connection.
 
 

Yes.  The structure of the universe is certainly one thing they had in common.  The method of creation via song (though the singers are different in a way), the use of "pagan" elements, though they used them in much different ways, in their Christian universes, the importance of trees, the seeds of good's fall are in itself, not from an absolute evil, and so on.  Plenty of differences too, but there are similarities I think. [1. text/html]