From: jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Bagels and the Ring of Gyges Date: 6 Jun 2004 21:07:21 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 37 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1086570442 17292 166.84.1.2 (7 Jun 2004 01:07:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 01:07:22 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer1.stngva01.us.to.verio.net!news.verio.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!panix2.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154471 At the end of an article titled "What the Bagel Man Saw" in today's New York Times Magazine I came across the following: Amid all the talk of cheating, lying and scamming, Paul F. takes the floor to declare his faith in humankind. "You guys know the story about the Ring of Gyges, right?" he says. A man named Gyges, he explains, came upon a cave and, inside it, a skeleton wearing a ring. When Gyges put on the ring, he found that it made him invisible. Now he was faced with a choice: would he use his invisibility for good or evil? The story comes from Plato's "Republic." It was told by a student named Glaucon, in challenge to a Socratic teaching about honesty and justice. "Socrates was arguing against the idea that people will be dishonest if given the chance," Paul F. says. "His point was that people are good, even without enforcement." But Paul F. doesn't tell his friends how Glaucon's story ends. Gyges actually did woeful things once he got the ring -- seduced the queen, murdered the king and so on. The story posed a moral question: could any man resist the temptation of evil if he knew his acts could not be witnessed? Glaucon seemed to think the answer was no. But Paul F. sides with Socrates -- for he knows that the answer, at least 89 percent of the time, is yes. A quick Google search shows that Gyges has been mentioned a few times in these newsgroups, but not often and not recently, so I thought this might be of interest. The article itself may be found at http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/06/magazine/06BAGEL.html. (Note that you may have to register with the NYT web site). -- John Brock jbrock@panix.com ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Bagels and the Ring of Gyges Lines: 20 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 19:12:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1086635547 82.43.162.58 (Mon, 07 Jun 2004 20:12:27 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 20:12:27 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsrout1.ntli.net!news-in.ntli.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154577 John Brock wrote: > "You guys know the story about the Ring of Gyges, right?" > The story posed a moral question: could any man resist the > temptation of evil if he knew his acts could not be witnessed? I think that the temptation provided by being invisible is different from the real temptation of Tolkien's Ring of Power. But an interesting precedent of sorts. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Bagels and the Ring of Gyges Date: 7 Jun 2004 21:58:54 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <%s7xc.1097$ri.94607@dfw-read.news.verio.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1086659934 16646 166.84.1.1 (8 Jun 2004 01:58:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 01:58:54 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1.stngva01.us.to.verio.net!news.verio.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!panix1.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154627 In article <%s7xc.1097$ri.94607@dfw-read.news.verio.net>, Shanahan wrote: >John Brock firmly declared: >> At the end of an article titled "What the Bagel Man Saw" in >> today's New York Times Magazine I came across the following: > >> story posed a moral question: could any man resist the >> temptation of evil if he knew his acts could not be witnessed? >> Glaucon seemed to think the answer was no. But Paul F. >> sides with Socrates -- for he knows that the answer, at >> least 89 percent of the time, is yes. >89 percent?? Someone determined that 89 percent of human beings >will resist the temptation to evil actions when invisible? Color >me confused and/or skeptical. No, someone determined that if you deliver a bunch of bagels to various businesses every day, leave them unattended along with a money box, and expect payment on the honor system, on average only 11 percent of the bagels will be stolen (and the money box itself will almost never be stolen!). It's actually a rather interesting article, focusing mainly on who pays, who doesn't, and why -- but I'll have to admit that the final paragraph, taken by itself, is perhaps a bit misleading. -- John Brock jbrock@panix.com ###### From: "Shanahan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Bagels and the Ring of Gyges Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <%s7xc.1097$ri.94607@dfw-read.news.verio.net> Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 20:02:01 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.153.86.69 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 1086653371 66.153.86.69 (Tue, 08 Jun 2004 00:09:31 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 00:09:31 GMT Organization: NTT/Verio Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1.stngva01.us.to.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154617 John Brock firmly declared: > At the end of an article titled "What the Bagel Man Saw" in > today's New York Times Magazine I came across the following: > story posed a moral question: could any man resist the > temptation of evil if he knew his acts could not be witnessed? > Glaucon seemed to think the answer was no. But Paul F. > sides with Socrates -- for he knows that the answer, at > least 89 percent of the time, is yes. 89 percent?? Someone determined that 89 percent of human beings will resist the temptation to evil actions when invisible? Color me confused and/or skeptical. - Ciaran S. -- The State is the altar of political freedom and, like the religious altar, it is maintained for the purpose of human sacrifice. - e.g. ###### From: "TeaLady (Mari C.)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Bagels and the Ring of Gyges Date: 10 Jun 2004 02:51:02 GMT Organization: Lint Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <%s7xc.1097$ri.94607@dfw-read.news.verio.net> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de ZGfFjGrSJZN8D9oSNL9jigl867CZ9sXp/z+7w+XRa2MuCR4TkF User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 x-face: 8S?dQ)V'hP@.Lf3Ot.sv"e+zw7tDI4*y7F3ySvbXP%qrfyUVyXTSovH~=C}5]"*4K`e4q_@ ]OG'MH[A!iPTo6O:Ru:FUr,R6|%`H^>U:F)MjpAS&{^3A/Mq=/0ewP)VoUj7E^)Ilg`n%{z=R0d88: O{^)NYf]Ys.D#w`R':o+%gkH,f.bZyYp]`)+}?f8$&{,Gz@z9ou=N]Z}o0CI]q&n\\kz/Op@\cg15@S[z&bb'f`2T,a> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154831 jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) wrote in news:ca36gu$28m$1@panix1.panix.com: > In article <%s7xc.1097$ri.94607@dfw-read.news.verio.net>, > Shanahan wrote: >>John Brock firmly declared: >>> At the end of an article titled "What the Bagel Man Saw" >>> in today's New York Times Magazine I came across the >>> following: > >> > >>> story posed a moral question: could any man resist the >>> temptation of evil if he knew his acts could not be >>> witnessed? Glaucon seemed to think the answer was no. But >>> Paul F. sides with Socrates -- for he knows that the >>> answer, at least 89 percent of the time, is yes. > >>89 percent?? Someone determined that 89 percent of human >>beings will resist the temptation to evil actions when >>invisible? Color me confused and/or skeptical. > > No, someone determined that if you deliver a bunch of bagels > to various businesses every day, leave them unattended along > with a money box, and expect payment on the honor system, on > average only 11 percent of the bagels will be stolen (and > the money box itself will almost never be stolen!). It's > actually a rather interesting article, focusing mainly on > who pays, who doesn't, and why -- but I'll have to admit > that the final paragraph, taken by itself, is perhaps a bit > misleading. Which means that 11% of the bagel munchers were crooks, or one crooked munched 11% of the bagels, or any other permutation that reaches 11%. I saw a show, or was it an article I read ? that featured wallets, with cash and credit cards, left lying about. The premise was the wallet would be returned, but cash missing, or credit card(s). Surprisingly (for the producers/writers), a large percentage were returned untouched. We (humans) are, basically, good people, despite the penchant for Those Who Know to tell us otherwise. I always believed the notion of evil lurking in all our hearts to be the result of the Original Sin concept, perpetrated by (many, perhaps all, not sure) organized and slightly organized and almost but not quite chaotic religions and philosphies of dark and wicked sin, and helped along by pessimistic fools, or those few who really are wicked at heart and want to spread the blame around, so as to take the heat off their own failings. -- TeaLady / mari conroy ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:08:56 -0500 From: R Dan Henry Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Bagels and the Ring of Gyges Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:08:05 -0700 Organization: Me, Myself, and I, a subsidiary of the Universe Reply-To: danhenry@inreach.com Message-ID: References: <%s7xc.1097$ri.94607@dfw-read.news.verio.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.25.50.132 X-Trace: sv3-GpLkPRRMTFrPcrLt7d5qcQkxxkoFQukOKDJWnWq3Tcca5teuCitD7SrRBkNuD5krkmJL6/mvL1BTgVZ!pRMLOgJ6PS8ntwycn7hhHaB/b3dTAAu1Px9q8JTNvpEbyEIC2AijJHYIfucdYqyTFnTn0NWuDtKX!OJqAEi0Li+IeuXE6I1gedrI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@inreach.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.inreach.com!news.inreach.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154891 On 10 Jun 2004 02:51:02 GMT, in a fit of madness "TeaLady (Mari C.)" declared: >Which means that 11% of the bagel munchers were crooks, or one >crooked munched 11% of the bagels, or any other permutation that >reaches 11%. Or simply that 89% considered that it might be a trap with a hidden camera and aren't going to risk their jobs for free bagel. R. Dan Henry (danhenry@inreach.com) "He stood up, and seemed suddenly to grow taller." - JRRT, LOTR, I.10 "Strider" Yeah, standing up will do that. ###### From: jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Bagels and the Ring of Gyges Date: 10 Jun 2004 19:45:08 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 72 Message-ID: References: <%s7xc.1097$ri.94607@dfw-read.news.verio.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1086911109 7731 166.84.1.2 (10 Jun 2004 23:45:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:45:09 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tdcnorge.no!news2.telebyte.nl!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!panix2.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154897 In article , TeaLady (Mari C.) wrote: >jbrock@panix.com (John Brock) wrote in >news:ca36gu$28m$1@panix1.panix.com: > >> In article <%s7xc.1097$ri.94607@dfw-read.news.verio.net>, >> Shanahan wrote: >>>89 percent?? Someone determined that 89 percent of human >>>beings will resist the temptation to evil actions when >>>invisible? Color me confused and/or skeptical. >> No, someone determined that if you deliver a bunch of bagels >> to various businesses every day, leave them unattended along >> with a money box, and expect payment on the honor system, on >> average only 11 percent of the bagels will be stolen (and >> the money box itself will almost never be stolen!). It's >> actually a rather interesting article, focusing mainly on >> who pays, who doesn't, and why -- but I'll have to admit >> that the final paragraph, taken by itself, is perhaps a bit >> misleading. >Which means that 11% of the bagel munchers were crooks, or one >crooked munched 11% of the bagels, or any other permutation that >reaches 11%. Yes. Although, given that bagels were delivered to a large number of establishments, that one crook would have to be very fast and hungry fellow. :-) >I saw a show, or was it an article I read ? that featured >wallets, with cash and credit cards, left lying about. The >premise was the wallet would be returned, but cash missing, or >credit card(s). Surprisingly (for the producers/writers), a >large percentage were returned untouched. > >We (humans) are, basically, good people, despite the penchant >for Those Who Know to tell us otherwise. I always believed the >notion of evil lurking in all our hearts to be the result of the >Original Sin concept, perpetrated by (many, perhaps all, not >sure) organized and slightly organized and almost but not quite >chaotic religions and philosphies of dark and wicked sin, and >helped along by pessimistic fools, or those few who really are >wicked at heart and want to spread the blame around, so as to >take the heat off their own failings. You may be a little overoptimistic, at least with respect to the article I linked to. The bagels were delivered to white collar businesses, where people tend to be fairly civilized, and even then the bagel people refused to deliver to businesses where payment rates dropped below 80 percent, which skews the statistics upward. If you go to the other end of the spectrum, where people are not so civilized, I think there are certainly places in this country where payment rates would approach zero, and the money boxes would have to be armored and bolted to the wall. :-/ I think most people are born capable of behaving well, but I think it's pretty clear that most of us -- if not all -- are also capable of behaving very badly under the wrong circumstances, and that this fact poses a huge problem for the human race, since it is easier to destroy than to create, and one day of bad behavior can easily outweigh a lifetime of good behavior. It's all very nice to be "basically good", but that isn't enough. We (humans) still need to firmly discipline ourselves to control our potential for evil, because, however "basically good" we may be, when evil does get the upper hand the results can be so bad. Perhaps the concept of "original sin" is an attempt to address this problem, and provide motivation for the necessary discipline. -- John Brock jbrock@panix.com