Message-ID: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 07:54:18 -0400 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 60 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.17 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1086436455 25189 207.199.164.17 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!c03.atl99!atl-c02.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!yellow.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154167 I ran across a small snippet this week that's relevant to Tolkien's theme of "technology is bad." I one of the news stories about the anniversary of D-Day, I heard Churchill's "Finest Hour" speech. In the last paragraph, he said "But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science." It's easy to think this paragraph inspired Tolkien's descriptions of just how calamatous a victory by Sauron would be. We know that Tolkien had already laid out his story when Churchill said this, and Tolkien disclaimed being influenced by the specific events of the two World Wars, I see a cultural connection here, not cause and effect. In Churchill's warning is a recognition that science, misused, is an amplifier of evil. This is not a proclamation that science (and by extension, technology) is evil, but that it is being used for evil. Churchill does not oppose technology (it gave Britain the Spitfire), put does not put blind faith in it. And Churchill casually tosses this reference into a speech with a very different purpose. I think he took for granted that a large part of his audience would share a cautious attitude toward the science that had made the World Wars so much more deadly than the 19th Century imperial wars. It was part of the atmosphere of his time, and of Tolkien's time. What about this less-radical position: it's not technology that's bad, but the destruction of things that ought to be respected. Not the forges that are bad, but tearing down Isengard's trees to feed them. Not the cars that are bad, but paving over England's villages and farms to spread the cars. I'm not convinced that Tolkien made this distinction. I hope he at least thought about it. In his writings, it's easier to find evidence of the more radical Romantic position: the advance of technology has crushed the noble spirit of an earlier age. There is not room for both, so roll back the new in order to recover the more valuable old. There's only one place I find Tolkien suggesting there might be a way to use science and technology in balance, or in an appropriate way. That's in the hints of advanced Numenorean science, such as the building of Orthanc and the walls of Minas Tirith. The bottom line: I think this is a more complex issue than either/or, techno/Romanticism. There may be something more interesting to say about Tolkien's attitudes than "he was anti-technology." Others may have explored this. But it was fun to use Churchill to illuminate Tolkien (and vice versa). -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 11:22:10 -0400 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <2ie6paFm9qv0U1@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 65F/KOmu8/xxo0YKUUwJSAgXqh/AQRqBj/0wNM9Q0hhxWc9pQ= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154194 Glenn Holliday wrote: > The bottom line: I think this is a more > complex issue than either/or, techno/Romanticism. > There may be something more interesting to say about > Tolkien's attitudes than "he was anti-technology." > Others may have explored this. But it was fun to > use Churchill to illuminate Tolkien (and vice versa). Swords and levers are examples of technology. Tolkien was no friend of heavy industry. He was not fond of Dark Satanic Mills. Bob Kolker > ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 19:02:44 -0500 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 125 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154238 On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 07:54:18 -0400, Glenn Holliday wrote: >I ran across a small snippet this week that's relevant to >Tolkien's theme of "technology is bad." I one of the news >stories about the anniversary of D-Day, I heard Churchill's >"Finest Hour" speech. In the last paragraph, he said > >"But if we fail, then the whole world, including the >United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink >into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more >protracted, by the lights of perverted science." > >It's easy to think this paragraph inspired Tolkien's >descriptions of just how calamatous a victory by Sauron >would be. We know that Tolkien had already laid out his story >when Churchill said this, and Tolkien disclaimed being >influenced by the specific events of the two World Wars, >I see a cultural connection here, not cause and effect. > >In Churchill's warning is a recognition that >science, misused, is an amplifier of evil. This is not a >proclamation that science (and by extension, technology) >is evil, but that it is being used for evil. Churchill >does not oppose technology (it gave Britain the Spitfire), >put does not put blind faith in it. > >And Churchill casually tosses this reference into a speech >with a very different purpose. I think he took for granted >that a large part of his audience would share a cautious >attitude toward the science that had made the World Wars >so much more deadly than the 19th Century imperial wars. >It was part of the atmosphere of his time, and of Tolkien's time. Even before WWI, Chesterton was saying: The child is, indeed, in these, and many other matters, the best guide. And in nothing is the child so righteously childlike, in nothing does he exhibit more accurately the sounder order of simplicity, than in the fact that he sees everything with a simple pleasure, even the complex things. The false type of naturalness harps always on the distinction between the natural and the artificial. The higher kind of naturalness ignores that distinction. To the child the tree and the lamp-post are as natural and as artificial as each other; or rather, neither of them are natural but both supernatural. For both are splendid and unexplained. The flower with which God crowns the one, and the flame with which Sam the lamplighter crowns the other, are equally of the gold of fairy-tales. In the middle of the wildest fields the most rustic child is, ten to one, playing at steam-engines. And the only spiritual or philosophical objection to steam-engines is not that men pay for them or work at them, or make them very ugly, or even that men are killed by them; but merely that men do not play at them. The evil is that the childish poetry of clockwork does not remain. The wrong is not that engines are too much admired, but that they are not admired enough. The sin is not that engines are mechanical, but that men are mechanical. --- "Heretics," 1905 (quote taken from online source, which is from the 12th edition, 1919) 12 editions in 14 years -- not an obscure or unpopular POV. These people were still around, as were their families, when Churchill gave his speech. But other types of people had come onto the scene, and it's perhaps not unrelated that Churchill had been ignored for quite a while politically in Britain before his war-time prominence. In the broader picture, as mankind became more mechanical and as some of the newer types eventually labeled H.G. Wells as a "prophet," and G.K. Chesterton as a "reactionary," when both men (and they were very good friends, even when they disagreed) were complex and too great to be fit into any such expedient cubbyholes, later thinkers on the subject, including JRRT, may have felt less secure and therefore more radical, to the detriment of all: The escapist is not so subservient to the whims of evanescent fashion as these opponents. He does not make things (which it may be quite rational to regard as bad) his masters or his gods by worshipping them as inevitable, even "inexorable." And his opponents, so easily contemptuous, have no guarantee that he will stop there: he might rouse men to pull down the street-lamps. Escapism has another and even wickeder face: Reaction. Not long ago-incredible though it may seem-I heard a clerk of Oxenford declare that he "welcomed" the proximity of mass-production robot factories, and the roar of self-obstructive mechanical traffic, because it brought his university into "contact with real life." He may have meant that the way men were living and working in the twentieth century was increasing in barbarity at an alarming rate, and that the loud demonstration of this in the streets of Oxford might serve as a warning that it is not possible to preserve for long an oasis of sanity in a desert of unreason by mere fences, without actual offensive action (practical and intellectual). I fear he did not. -- "On Fairy-stories" 1939 As much as I admire JRRT's thinking and writing (and enjoy this outburst of his very much), Chesterton outclasses him here. >What about this less-radical position: it's not technology that's >bad, but the destruction of things that ought to be respected. >Not the forges that are bad, but tearing down Isengard's trees >to feed them. Not the cars that are bad, but paving over >England's villages and farms to spread the cars. > >I'm not convinced that Tolkien made this distinction. >I hope he at least thought about it. In his writings, it's >easier to find evidence of the more radical Romantic position: >the advance of technology has crushed the noble spirit of >an earlier age. There is not room for both, so >roll back the new in order to recover the more valuable old. It might rather spring from the native understanding that such dichotomies of good-bad, new-old, etc., are artificial and a symptom of the mechanical mind rather than illustrative of anything in the world as it actually is. Which writings of JRRT did you have in mind? Barb ###### From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: 5 Jun 2004 23:25:44 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 33 Message-ID: <3b26e128.0406052225.7ac4541b@posting.google.com> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.93.81.43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1086503144 7858 127.0.0.1 (6 Jun 2004 06:25:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 06:25:44 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!209.11.36.156.MISMATCH!nntp-server.pubsub.com!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154268 Glenn Holliday wrote in message news:<40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org>... > What about this less-radical position: it's not technology that's > bad, but the destruction of things that ought to be respected. > Not the forges that are bad, but tearing down Isengard's trees > to feed them. Not the cars that are bad, but paving over > England's villages and farms to spread the cars. Tolkien wasn't nearly as opposed to tecnology as people today make him out to be. I have noticed some prominent Tolkien scholars are starting to address this erroneous notion, but they are probably saying too little, too late. What Tolkien (who bought a car in the 1930s, used tape recorders in the 1950s, and delighted in other aspects of our technological civilization) deplored were the seeming wanton destruction of the landscape by industrialists, and the dehumanization of the individual by rigid governments and social forces driven by the technological revolution. He often referred to something he called 'The Machine', which was a controlling structure that stripped a person of their individuality. One example of The Machine is how the military forces its members to conform to uniform standards and behaviors. Another example of The Machine is how industrial society strives to turn workers into robots, performing the same tasks day after day, living in similar houses, purusing similar mundane interests. The Machine strips the human spirit of its artistic qualities and values. Christopher Tolkien gives a very vivid and energetic explanation of his father's views in the 1992 film biography. If you should get a chance to watch it, do so. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <3b26e128.0406052225.7ac4541b@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Lines: 16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <6XCwc.1243$NJ3.13871201@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 11:08:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1086520130 82.43.162.58 (Sun, 06 Jun 2004 12:08:50 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 12:08:50 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154284 Michael Martinez wrote: > Christopher Tolkien gives a very vivid and energetic explanation of > his father's views in the 1992 film biography. If you should get a > chance to watch it, do so. Michael, do you have any more details on this? It sounds interesting and I'd like to try and get hold of a copy. Who broadcast it? Is it available to buy? Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 08:32:45 -0500 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: <3276c0l0iljj4a043jk5927gqe6lmg4l0f@4ax.com> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <3b26e128.0406052225.7ac4541b@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 46 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!sjc1.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154305 On 5 Jun 2004 23:25:44 -0700, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >Glenn Holliday wrote in message news:<40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org>... >> What about this less-radical position: it's not technology that's >> bad, but the destruction of things that ought to be respected. >> Not the forges that are bad, but tearing down Isengard's trees >> to feed them. Not the cars that are bad, but paving over >> England's villages and farms to spread the cars. > >Tolkien wasn't nearly as opposed to tecnology as people today make him >out to be. I have noticed some prominent Tolkien scholars are >starting to address this erroneous notion, but they are probably >saying too little, too late. > >What Tolkien (who bought a car in the 1930s, ...and created a very funny and enjoyable children's story "In Mr. Bliss" about what happened when a man bought a car. >used tape recorders in >the 1950s, and delighted in other aspects of our technological >civilization) deplored were the seeming wanton destruction of the >landscape by industrialists, and the dehumanization of the individual >by rigid governments and social forces driven by the technological >revolution. > >He often referred to something he called 'The Machine', which was a >controlling structure that stripped a person of their individuality. >One example of The Machine is how the military forces its members to >conform to uniform standards and behaviors. Another example of The >Machine is how industrial society strives to turn workers into robots, >performing the same tasks day after day, living in similar houses, >purusing similar mundane interests. > >The Machine strips the human spirit of its artistic qualities and >values. > >Christopher Tolkien gives a very vivid and energetic explanation of >his father's views in the 1992 film biography. If you should get a >chance to watch it, do so. I have yet to read even Humphrey's biography of him, but will certainly keep an eye out for this film. Thank you. Barb ###### From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: 6 Jun 2004 22:57:39 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 33 Message-ID: <3b26e128.0406062157.5b9614d9@posting.google.com> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <3b26e128.0406052225.7ac4541b@posting.google.com> <6XCwc.1243$NJ3.13871201@news-text.cableinet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.90.40.125 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1086587860 9676 127.0.0.1 (7 Jun 2004 05:57:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 05:57:40 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154528 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:<6XCwc.1243$NJ3.13871201@news-text.cableinet.net>... > Michael Martinez wrote: > > > Christopher Tolkien gives a very vivid and energetic explanation of > > his father's views in the 1992 film biography. If you should get a > > chance to watch it, do so. > > Michael, do you have any more details on this? It sounds interesting and > I'd like to try and get hold of a copy. Who broadcast it? Is it > available to buy? It was called "JRRT: A Film Biography" but my copy came from the UK and was one of only about forty copies sold in the United States before it was taken off the market due to licensing restrictions. It was produced in 1992 and was authorized by the Tolkien something-or-other. I don't think it was the Tolkien Society, but maybe it was them. It was a celebration of Tolkien's centenniel birthday. There was all sorts of hoopla that year. I am not sure of where it is right now. The narrator was Judy Dench. Other interviewees included the late Father John Tolkien, Priscilla Tolkien, Queen Margrethe, Tom Shippey, Verlyin Fleiger, and maybe one or two other people I cannot recall. When I started the Tolkien and Middle-earth fan programming track for DragonCon (I am no longer the director) a few years ago, I played the video to packed rooms. It is two hours long. Christopher's segments are among the most riveting. Shippey also has a great screen presence. I have heard that it is occasionally shown on cable channels here in the US. ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 10:05:11 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <10cbldk2si6i86b@corp.supernews.com> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 72 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154685 "Glenn Holliday" wrote in message news:40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org... > I ran across a small snippet this week that's relevant to > Tolkien's theme of "technology is bad." I one of the news > stories about the anniversary of D-Day, I heard Churchill's > "Finest Hour" speech. In the last paragraph, he said > > "But if we fail, then the whole world, including the > United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink > into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more > protracted, by the lights of perverted science." > > It's easy to think this paragraph inspired Tolkien's > descriptions of just how calamatous a victory by Sauron > would be. We know that Tolkien had already laid out his story > when Churchill said this, and Tolkien disclaimed being > influenced by the specific events of the two World Wars, > I see a cultural connection here, not cause and effect. > > In Churchill's warning is a recognition that > science, misused, is an amplifier of evil. This is not a > proclamation that science (and by extension, technology) > is evil, but that it is being used for evil. Churchill > does not oppose technology (it gave Britain the Spitfire), > put does not put blind faith in it. > > And Churchill casually tosses this reference into a speech > with a very different purpose. I think he took for granted > that a large part of his audience would share a cautious > attitude toward the science that had made the World Wars > so much more deadly than the 19th Century imperial wars. > It was part of the atmosphere of his time, and of Tolkien's time. > > What about this less-radical position: it's not technology that's > bad, but the destruction of things that ought to be respected. > Not the forges that are bad, but tearing down Isengard's trees > to feed them. Not the cars that are bad, but paving over > England's villages and farms to spread the cars. > > I'm not convinced that Tolkien made this distinction. > I hope he at least thought about it. In his writings, it's > easier to find evidence of the more radical Romantic position: > the advance of technology has crushed the noble spirit of > an earlier age. There is not room for both, so > roll back the new in order to recover the more valuable old. > > There's only one place I find Tolkien suggesting there might be a > way to use science and technology in balance, or in an > appropriate way. That's in the hints of advanced > Numenorean science, such as the building of Orthanc and > the walls of Minas Tirith. > > The bottom line: I think this is a more > complex issue than either/or, techno/Romanticism. > There may be something more interesting to say about > Tolkien's attitudes than "he was anti-technology." > Others may have explored this. But it was fun to > use Churchill to illuminate Tolkien (and vice versa). It also puts me in mind of Lewis' That Hideous Strength. I know that JRRT himself was not fond of the last of CSL's space trilogy because of what he saw as Charles William's influence, but the same attitude towards "progress" and "technology" is still there. Barbara > > -- > Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org > ###### Message-ID: <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:07:43 -0400 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 69 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.93 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1090887559 10532 207.199.164.93 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!cw-insnet-peer-00!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:158992 Belba Grubb from Stock wrote: > > On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 07:54:18 -0400, Glenn Holliday > wrote: > > >In his writings, it's > >easier to find evidence of the more radical Romantic position: > >the advance of technology has crushed the noble spirit of > >an earlier age. There is not room for both, so > >roll back the new in order to recover the more valuable old. > > It might rather spring from the native understanding that such > dichotomies of good-bad, new-old, etc., are artificial and a symptom > of the mechanical mind rather than illustrative of anything in the > world as it actually is. > > Which writings of JRRT did you have in mind? The Hobbit, "Over Hill and Under Hill" (Speaking of Goblins) "They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. ... It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world ... but in those days ... they had not advanced (as it is called) so far. LOTR, "The Council of Elrond" Tolkien does not explicitly say so, but I think the description of Saruman replacing the trees of Isengard with pits and machinery implies that good Saruman was friendly to nature, evil Saruman friendly to technology. LOTR "The Scouring of the Shire," Tolkien does not explicitly say technology is bad. But it is thoroughly evil invaders who cut down the trees and build a new mill. We don't know exactly what the mill does, but it is "frowning and dirty ugliness: a great brick building straddling the stream, which it fouled with a steaming and stinking outflow." Whatever is going on inside the mill is clearly more technological than anything the Shire had previously seen. BOLT 2 "The Fall of Gondolin" "Melko ... or iron and flame ... wrought a host of monsters such as have only at that time been seen ..." Some of these monsters clearly have magical character, but they are also clearly technological constructions. Some act as armored personnel carriers, "... and these were filled in their innermost depths with the grimmest of Orcs ..." The point is that only Melko was ever interested in building things like this. Letter 155 (Speaking of magic, of the Elves and of the Enemy) "Both sides live mainly by 'ordinary' means. The Enemy, or those who have become like him, go in for 'machinery' - with destructive and evil effects - because 'magicians', who have become chiefly concerned to use magia for their own power, would do so (do do so)." There are also references to Numenorian technology (the walls of Orthanc and Minas Tirith). But those sound more like art than machine works. Throughout Tolkien's works, whenever we see the industrial style of technology, it is in the hands of evil. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 18:49:03 -0500 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: <9lvqg01jevp4h9nko8277gs1vvrtnqd2sf@4ax.com> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 278 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159169 >On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:07:43 -0400, Glenn Holliday spake... This is one of those situations where I hope it's all right to talk a bit before quoting the post I'm responding to. It has been a little while, with many bytes having passed under the bridge in the interval, so please let me try to restate things just to make sure I'm not totally clueless here. (Warning: this is going to be very long.) You passed along Churchill's quote: "But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science." and noted that this contains a recognition that science ("and by extension, technology"), misused, is an amplifier of evil (not necessarily evil in itself) and is being used by evil. It shouldn't be trusted blindly. Much of Britain (his "audience") would share a cautious attitude toward science that had made the world wars so much more deadly, and it was in this atmosphere that JRRT was writing and which he would absorb I responded with a 1905 quote from a popular work by the British writer G. K. Chesterton that, among other things, seemed to show more tolerance, or perhaps wonder is a better word, for the results of science: "To the child the tree and the lamp-post are as natural and as artificial as each other; or rather, neither of them are natural but both supernatural. For both are splendid and unexplained. The flower with which God crowns the one, and the flame with which Sam the lamplighter crowns the other, are equally of the gold of fairy-tales." and noted that Chesterton's work had been very popular and so reflected something of the social atmosphere of those days. Contrasted with that quote from GKC was a 1938 quote from JRRT in "On Fairy-stories" in which his view of street lamps was rather radical: "he might rouse men to pull down the street-lamps. Escapism has another and even wickeder face: Reaction." Chesterton's quote also addressed technology ("steam-engines"), and he said: "And the only spiritual or philosophical objection to steam-engines is not that men pay for them or work at them, or make them very ugly, or even that men are killed by them; but merely that men do not play at them. The evil is that the childish poetry of clockwork does not remain. The wrong is not that engines are too much admired, but that they are not admired enough. The sin is not that engines are mechanical, but that men are mechanical." and from that basis I suggested that in the three decades or so since Chesterton had spoken, mankind had indeed become more mechanical and had developed a tendency to label both people and things, whether accurately or not, and so unmechanical people with views like those JRRT expressed in his 1938 speech on fairy-stories felt more insecure and so might have lost their sense of wonder at street lamps, to use Chesterton's example, and developed a desire to tear them down (see the relevant section of "On Fairy-stories" for JRRT's complete discussion of street lamps and why he didn't like them; he actually brings Chesterton into it, but with a different quote, one about modernity). You had earlier suggested that "it's not the technology that's bad, but the destruction of things that ought to be respected," and noted that it was easy to find, in JRRT's writings, evidence of "the more radical Romantic position: the advance of technology has crushed the noble spirit of an earlier age. There is not room for both, so roll back the new in order to recover the more valuable old." I remarked that "it might rather spring from the native understanding that such dichotomies of good-bad, new-old, etc., are artificial and a symptom of the mechanical mind rather than illustrative of anything in the world as it actually is." So to sum up, and please correct me if I've misunderstood anything, your point is that JRRT's "anti-technology" mindset developed, at least in part, from a general societal recognition in the first few decades of the 20th century that technology is not to be trusted, not because it's necessarily bad but because it is used for evil ends, including the destruction of worthwhile things that are separate from and do not partake of it and that in JRRT's writings there is evidence of the Romantic position that the advance of technology has crushed the human spirit of earlier ages and that the two cannot coexist because there is not enough room in the world for both. My point is that JRRT recognized that dichotomies are artificial and a symptom of the mechanical mind, separate from the actual realities of the world. I also asked: >> Which writings of JRRT did you have in mind? > And on Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:07:43 -0400, Glenn Holliday wrote: >The Hobbit, "Over Hill and Under Hill" >(Speaking of Goblins) >"They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. ... "...many clever ones. They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty..." Here we have the same technology, used and misused, coexisting in the world (as we'll see when we get to Thranduil's cave and to Erebor). >It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines >that have since troubled the world ... but in those days ... >they had not advanced (as it is called) so far. "...have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; but in those days..." Contrast that with Gandalf's fireworks, remembered so fondly by Bilbo, and how, at the Farewell Party, it was mentioned that Gandalf set off some of the pieces himself. Also that Gandalf's "technology" killed large numbers of goblins when Thorin and Company were ambushed in the HIgh Pass. Again, similar technologies coexisting, but the great difference is in the mind of the operators. And in the same passage, after "make many clever ones" but before "It is not unlikely," JRRT pointed out that the goblins "get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work until they die for want of air and light." Shades of socialist Jack London running a dog team to death, in 1903, in the frozen North of "The Call of the Wild." This may a good time to mention that JRRT's main gripe about the street lamps of 1938 Britian was that they were mass-produced and ugly, not that they were powered by electricity (whereas those in which Chesterton found "the gold of fairy tales" were gas lamps lit by hand): one has only to think of the "silver lamps" of the Elves of Lorien and "the light of sun and star and moon in shining lamps of crystal hewn undimmed by cloud or shade of night," shining in Moria "for ever fair and bright" to recognize that JRRT found full measure of wonder in what electricity could do for lighting. That is to say, it's not the technology: it's the social, economic and political spheres wherein the problem rests. Jack London went to the dogs; JRRT spoke of escapism and reaction. Neither one was really in sync with the mainstream social patterns of their respective days, but both became wildly popular, and still are today, because they each wrote in such a way that you feel as though you are actually in a different world that is both completely beautiful and utterly horrible, and in which every step is an adventure and a wonder. But to say that either man's writing reflected his times is like, dare I say it, treading on thin ice. >LOTR, "The Council of Elrond" >Tolkien does not explicitly say so, but I think the description >of Saruman replacing the trees of Isengard with pits and >machinery implies that good Saruman was friendly to nature, >evil Saruman friendly to technology. Well, Radagast was friend to nature and look where it got him (nowhere). But of course, what you're saying is true, and it's reinforced by Treebeard later on, when he describes Saruman to Merry and Pippin: He is plotting to become a Power. He has a mind of metal and wheels; and he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment. Saruman has certainly lost "the childish poetry of clockwork." But the main problem with Saruman, it seems to me, is not his willingness to misuse technology; rather, it is his ambition. Good Saruman was not "plotting to become a Power"; Bad Saruman is, wholeheartedly. IMHO, his studies of Sauron seduced him into desire for power, and that's when he slipped. All the rest of it, including the wheels and metal and lack of care for growing things, came after that. Here we have, underlying the mechanical mind, selfish ambition, and failure to understand the true nature of Evil and so falling victim to it. One could say, here we have JRRT digging down far past the technological symptoms to get at the core of the problem, and it is one rather closer to the spiritual/intellectual side of things than to the merely mechanistic. I would argue that our view of Tolkien's "anti-technology" mindset actually reflects our own times more than it sheds any light on his work or its relation to his own times. We are the mechanics; but Tolkien, in spite of the rise of those mechanically minded labelers mentioned above, still had a much broader field in which to take root and flourish. It was still okay to include matters of the spirit in one's thought and work. Indeed, I take this quote from "On Fairy-stories": Yet I suspect that this flower-and-butterfly minuteness [of fairies] was also a product of "rationalization," which transformed the glamour of Elfland into mere finesse, and invisibility into a fragility that could hide in a cowslip or shrink behind a blade of grass. It seems to become fashionable soon after the great voyages had begun to make the world seem too narrow to hold both men and elves; when the magic land of Hy Breasail in the West had become the mere Brazils, the land of red-dye-wood. with its emphasis on "rationalization" (set apart with quotes in the original) to be the really rather harmless tip of an iceberg that, if traced down probably further than JRRT himself would have done, would lead to a base as huge and complicated as that of the whole history of the Church and the Protestant Reformation. Rather than get into all that, I'll just ask if it's possible that your view that there is not room for both the advance of technology and the noble spirit of an earlier age is actually just another product of the "rationalization" JRRT was talking about here, and which he seemed to be distancing himself from. >LOTR "The Scouring of the Shire," >Tolkien does not explicitly say technology is bad. >But it is thoroughly evil invaders who cut down the >trees and build a new mill. We don't know exactly what >the mill does, but it is "frowning and dirty ugliness: >a great brick building straddling the stream, which it >fouled with a steaming and stinking outflow." Whatever >is going on inside the mill is clearly more technological >than anything the Shire had previously seen. I'm going to pass on this for now simply because I'm tired of thinking and writing (g). >BOLT 2 "The Fall of Gondolin" >"Melko ... or iron and flame ... wrought a host of monsters >such as have only at that time been seen ..." >Some of these monsters clearly have magical character, >but they are also clearly technological constructions. >Some act as armored personnel carriers, "... and these >were filled in their innermost depths with the grimmest >of Orcs ..." The point is that only Melko was ever >interested in building things like this. > >Letter 155 >(Speaking of magic, of the Elves and of the Enemy) >"Both sides live mainly by 'ordinary' means. The Enemy, or those who >have become like him, go in for 'machinery' - with destructive and evil >effects - because 'magicians', who have become chiefly concerned to use >magia for their own power, would do so (do do so)." These I'll pass on, also, and regretfully for they sound intriguing, but I'm not familiar enough with the works to comment on them. Hope someone else does (or has -- I'm way behind in reading posts). >There are also references to Numenorian technology >(the walls of Orthanc and Minas Tirith). But those >sound more like art than machine works. Not when angry Ents come visiting, or the army of the Witch-king lays siege to your city...art takes on a very practical aspect then. What is JRRT saying about art and practicality here, I wonder. >Throughout Tolkien's works, whenever we see the industrial >style of technology, it is in the hands of evil. And when we see "pretty" technology it seems to be "magic," that is, the delay between conception and implementation has been reduced to a very short interval of time indeed. And "pretty" and "industrial" technology coexist in Middle-earth. They are not in competition, but the minds that wield them are. Barb ###### From: " Shanahan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 23:33:38 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <9lvqg01jevp4h9nko8277gs1vvrtnqd2sf@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-991.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159170 Belba Grubb from Stock declared: >> On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:07:43 -0400, Glenn Holliday >> spake... >> Throughout Tolkien's works, whenever we see the industrial >> style of technology, it is in the hands of evil. > > And when we see "pretty" technology it seems to be "magic," that > is, the delay between conception and implementation has been > reduced to a very short interval of time indeed. And "pretty" > and "industrial" technology coexist in Middle-earth. They are > not in competition, but the minds that wield them are. I agree with much of what you've said here. I'll just add that Barb's point is supported very directly by Letter #131: "Both of these [the Fall and Mortality] (alone or together) will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective, - and so to the Machine (or Magic)." The "corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills" is what makes and defines evil, not whether one uses machines or magic to do so. I feel that what Tolkien objected to about industrialization was its mode and its mindset, not the fact that machines existed. The mode of production and the treatment of people themselves as machines, the Henry Ford production-line mindset that created only deadly sameness. Hardly an original belief, but one he held passionately. Ciaran S. -- We're not allowed miracles. We traded them in for technology some years ago, and now we're stuck with finding out how things work. -r.a.macavoy ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 07:59:27 -0400 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <2n6ol2Fts9kdU2@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <9lvqg01jevp4h9nko8277gs1vvrtnqd2sf@4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de JqaK9tylkqqG2K1GjOffDABBB44OhmtOdnrL2coFvkQWeu9Yw= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!feed.news.tiscali.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159177 Shanahan wrote: > I feel that what Tolkien objected to about industrialization was > its mode and its mindset, not the fact that machines existed. The > mode of production and the treatment of people themselves as > machines, the Henry Ford production-line mindset that created only > deadly sameness. Hardly an original belief, but one he held > passionately. Here is the short version. Tolkien was a Luddite lite. Many Brit intellectuals were. Bob Kolker ###### From: Hashemon Urtasman User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> In-Reply-To: <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Message-ID: <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:33:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.193.56.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1091478780 69.193.56.147 (Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:33:00 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:33:00 EDT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!c01.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!cyclone01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!12dc6cf53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159186 Glenn Holliday wrote: > Letter 155 > (Speaking of magic, of the Elves and of the Enemy) > "Both sides live mainly by 'ordinary' means. The Enemy, or those > who have become like him, go in for 'machinery' - with destructive > and evil effects - because 'magicians', who have become chiefly > concerned to use magia for their own power, would do so (do do so)." > There are also references to Numenorian technology > (the walls of Orthanc and Minas Tirith). But those > sound more like art than machine works. > Throughout Tolkien's works, whenever we see the industrial > style of technology, it is in the hands of evil. > Tolkien wrote on one of tax returns, "not a penny for Concorde", referring to that plane financed by taxpayers. It may be the "megaproject" which he was against, and not technology per se. Look at his love for Elvish and Dwarvish skill. Hasan ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:23:40 -0400 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <2n80nvFtaqfvU3@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de YnfdnLXCEa3bf2+KZl0gBQRBsIJG79BRDDaRlFV9mnU5Dgt3E= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159190 Hashemon Urtasman wrote: > It may be the "megaproject" which he was against, and not technology > per se. Look at his love for Elvish and Dwarvish skill. Both skills were shapings of Nature. Neither featured machines and other such artifacts. One gets the impression the Elven craftsmen (or craftselves) were smithies. Neither Elf nor Dwarve was likely to produce a computer or a particle accelerator. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Bruce Tucker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 20:59:11 -0400 Organization: LexisNexis, Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2n80nvFtaqfvU3@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.121.40.95 X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 1091494752 24834 10.121.40.95 (3 Aug 2004 00:59:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@lexisnexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 00:59:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!nntpfeed.zonnet.nl!in.100proofnews.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!newspeer.radix.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!lexisnexis.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159192 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote > > Hashemon Urtasman wrote: > > > > > It may be the "megaproject" which he was against, and not technology per > > se. Look at his love for Elvish and Dwarvish skill. > > Both skills were shapings of Nature. Neither featured machines and other > such artifacts. One gets the impression the Elven craftsmen (or > craftselves) were smithies. I don't think "natural" vs. "unnatural" has much to do with it at all. A razor-sharp, carbon-steel (or is it?) sword that glows in the presence of orcs is hardly a natural artifact, whether it came out of a primitive forge or Ted Sandyman's new mill. For that matter, I doubt Sandyman's mill produced anything nearly as complex or technologically advanced as the tower of Orthanc. And if the Dwarves made such clever and excellent toys, I can easily imagine them making more practical machines as well; remember, we never get a good, up-close look at a functioning Dwarven society to see how they live day-to-day. I always imagined they'd be wonderful locksmiths and clockmakers. I think when it comes to how things are made the difference is craft vs. industry. The Elves, at their best, did the things they did and made the things they made for sheer love of doing it. Having the products afterwards was almost a side-benefit. When Feanor and his sons became obsessed over ownership of certain products of his genius, this was portrayed as both a moral flaw and the cause of their downfall. Thus, the material production methods Tolkien favored are those which emphasize loving, meticulous craftsmanship, direct and personal interaction of the artisan with the thing being produced. Methods designed to minimize the need for this interaction in favor of a higher ratio of (shoddy) goods produced for a given amount of effort are a huge step in the wrong direction for Tolkien - something that would appeal to the bad side of Dwarves, maybe, the clever side of goblins, definitely, and the greediest nature of dragons or of men like the Master of Lake-town. > Neither Elf nor Dwarve was likely to produce a computer or a particle > accelerator. What's that thing you just sent your message through, if not a sort of 21st century palantir? Or, reverse that. -- Bruce Tucker disintegration @ mindspring.com ###### From: " Shanahan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 22:40:31 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <9lvqg01jevp4h9nko8277gs1vvrtnqd2sf@4ax.com> <2n6ol2Fts9kdU2@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-634.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159195 Robert J. Kolker declared: > Shanahan wrote: > >> I feel that what Tolkien objected to about industrialization was >> its mode and its mindset, not the fact that machines existed. >> The mode of production and the treatment of people themselves as >> machines, the Henry Ford production-line mindset that created >> only deadly sameness. Hardly an original belief, but one he held >> passionately. > > Here is the short version. Tolkien was a Luddite lite. Many Brit > intellectuals were. Shorter version: yup. Ciaran S. -- Well Jimmy played harmonica in the pub where I was born he played it from the nighttime til the peaceful early morn he soothed the souls of psychos and the men who had the horn and they all looked very happy in the morning - the pogues ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 06:36:04 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 50 Message-ID: <410f2a07.73540058@news.saix.net> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2n80nvFtaqfvU3@uni-berlin.de> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: tpr-ip-nas-1-p124.telkom-ipnet.co.za X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1091515270 18258 155.239.184.124 (3 Aug 2004 06:41:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Aug 2004 06:41:10 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!194.72.7.126.MISMATCH!news-peer-test!news-peer0-test!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159200 On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 20:59:11 -0400, "Bruce Tucker" wrote: >"Robert J. Kolker" wrote >> >> Hashemon Urtasman wrote: >> >> > >> > It may be the "megaproject" which he was against, and not technology >per >> > se. Look at his love for Elvish and Dwarvish skill. >> >> Both skills were shapings of Nature. Neither featured machines and >other >> such artifacts. One gets the impression the Elven craftsmen (or >> craftselves) were smithies. > >I don't think "natural" vs. "unnatural" has much to do with it at all. A >razor-sharp, carbon-steel (or is it?) sword that glows in the presence >of orcs is hardly a natural artifact, whether it came out of a primitive >forge or Ted Sandyman's new mill. For that matter, I doubt Sandyman's >mill produced anything nearly as complex or technologically advanced as >the tower of Orthanc. And if the Dwarves made such clever and excellent >toys, I can easily imagine them making more practical machines as well; >remember, we never get a good, up-close look at a functioning Dwarven >society to see how they live day-to-day. I always imagined they'd be >wonderful locksmiths and clockmakers. > >I think when it comes to how things are made the difference is craft vs. >industry. The Elves, at their best, did the things they did and made the >things they made for sheer love of doing it. Having the products >afterwards was almost a side-benefit. When Feanor and his sons became >obsessed over ownership of certain products of his genius, this was >portrayed as both a moral flaw and the cause of their downfall. Which would make Tolkien part of the New Left, and what Ayn Rand called the "Anti-Industrial Revolution". Except that he wasn't. But yes, one can detect in his books that he prefered a mode of production where things were made for use rather than profit. He was unconcerned with the bottom line, and disliked industrial methods that produced pollution. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 06:31:32 -0400 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <2n97s7Fu6amhU1@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2n80nvFtaqfvU3@uni-berlin.de> <410f2a07.73540058@news.saix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de Zz634WUJxUVbzOc165So0QRa27cGBtr4RxYaDwor1FKqKHsvA= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <410f2a07.73540058@news.saix.net> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!feeder2.ecngs.de!217.73.144.44.MISMATCH!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159205 Steve Hayes wrote: > But yes, one can detect in his books that he prefered a mode of production > where things were made for use rather than profit. He was unconcerned with the > bottom line, and disliked industrial methods that produced > pollution. A perfectly reasonable position. Better we should get our goodies without pollution than with pollution. Of course, that means they will cost more. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Gorbag" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2n80nvFtaqfvU3@uni-berlin.de> <410f2a07.73540058@news.saix.net> <2n97s7Fu6amhU1@uni-berlin.de> Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: <%7NPc.595$d4.576@bos-service2.ext.ray.com> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 10:17:29 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.125.203.240 X-Complaints-To: news@ext.ray.com X-Trace: bos-service2.ext.ray.com 1091542651 138.125.203.240 (Tue, 03 Aug 2004 10:17:31 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 10:17:31 EDT Organization: Raytheon Company Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!151.164.30.34!cyclone.swbell.net!bos-service1.raytheon.com!bos-service2.ext.ray.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159214 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message news:2n97s7Fu6amhU1@uni-berlin.de... > > > Steve Hayes wrote: > > But yes, one can detect in his books that he prefered a mode of production > > where things were made for use rather than profit. He was unconcerned with the > > bottom line, and disliked industrial methods that produced pollution. > > A perfectly reasonable position. Better we should get our goodies > without pollution than with pollution. Of course, that means they will > cost more. Well, only because our current economic model allows polluting for "free." If the polluter had to cleanup as well (no particulate, odor, sound, or energy that is unwanted by your neighbors may escape your property line), then I imagine low pollution forms of production would be less expensive. ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: 3 Aug 2004 19:52:45 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.128.228.61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1091587965 11810 127.0.0.1 (4 Aug 2004 02:52:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 02:52:45 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159231 Glenn Holliday wrote in message news:<41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org>... > > There are also references to Numenorian technology > (the walls of Orthanc and Minas Tirith). But those > sound more like art than machine works. Depends on how you define it. The Numenereans were tremendous engineers, what we see in Gondor and Mordor was the work of a handful of escapees from a cataclysmic disaster, taking with them only a smattering of their homeland's knowledge and techniques. J.R.R.T. mentions in the Akallabeth that even Sauron himself, the former head of Aule's own people, was 'amazed' at the sight of the capitol city of Numenor. It must have been quite a place. The early Gondorians mined and dug. Remember that Theoden and his forces managed to sneak up on the siege force at Minas Tirith by taking a forgotten rode through a gap in the hills that was, essentially, a long-forgotten strip mine(!) left over from the construction of Minas Tirith. Ghan-Buri-Ghan told the Riders that the Dunedain, in the early days, 'carved hills as man carves a beast'. One difference between the Gondorians and the modern industrial 'mindset': the Gondorians built to last. 'Planned obsolesence' wasn't a goal of theirs, they designed Minas Tirith to last for millennia. Thus there wasn't a boundless appetite for new mines and new environmental damage, they could 'do their work' and stop. That might indicate something about J.R.R.T.'s views. Shermanlee ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: 3 Aug 2004 19:59:22 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.128.228.61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1091588363 12109 127.0.0.1 (4 Aug 2004 02:59:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 02:59:23 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159232 Hashemon Urtasman wrote in message news:<0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>... > > > Tolkien wrote on one of tax returns, "not a penny for Concorde", > referring to that plane financed by taxpayers. > > It may be the "megaproject" which he was against, and not technology per > se. Look at his love for Elvish and Dwarvish skill. > > Hasan To be fair, even on a practical level Tolkien may well have had a point. The Concorde project has turned out to be of questionable practical value, even in purely economic terms. Ditto the 'Chunnel'. The notion that big projects are good simply because they are big is common, but often leads to iffy results. "If you build it they will come" makes for a poor economic projection. Shermanlee ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 06:25:26 -0400 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 2CZ0QDiSlN12/7CH/i+u4w4GIegnjRv6Ob0CIJL0GtfNbCDKQ= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159234 Johnny1A wrote: > To be fair, even on a practical level Tolkien may well have had a > point. The Concorde project has turned out to be of questionable > practical value, even in purely economic terms. Ditto the 'Chunnel'. It was a government boondogle and a loser. The Concorde is now an expensive relic of a wrong-headed policy. Subsonic wide body planes built by private enterprise carry the bulk of the flying public. > The notion that big projects are good simply because they are big is > common, but often leads to iffy results. "If you build it they will > come" makes for a poor economic projection. > Shermanlee On the other hand if some things are not built people are the poorer for that. For example the Panama Canal. A very useful project that has repaid its costs many, many times over. By the way, it was a private project, even though Teddy Roosevelt had to foment a revolution in Panama to make the canal possible. Bob Kolker ###### From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 20:53:32 GMT Organization: Topiary of Cthulhu Lines: 13 Message-ID: <4111497f.31062685@news.compuserve.com> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2n80nvFtaqfvU3@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: mid-tgn-ngo-vty142.as.wcom.net X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1091652838 19930 216.192.86.142 (4 Aug 2004 20:53:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 20:53:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159247 On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 20:59:11 -0400, "Bruce Tucker" wrote: >I think when it comes to how things are made the difference is craft vs. >industry. The Elves, at their best, did the things they did and made the >things they made for sheer love of doing it. Having the products >afterwards was almost a side-benefit. Yes: remember the jewel-strewn beaches of Valinor? That was Elves' work. They made (mined and polished?) them, then tossed them in. Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat) -- "Everything is futile." -- Marvin of Borg ###### Message-ID: <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> From: Jussi Jaatinen <1.1@nowhere.org> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 08:37:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.21.37.149 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1091695048 172.21.37.149 (Thu, 05 Aug 2004 11:37:28 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 11:37:28 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159256 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > It was a government boondogle and a loser. The Concorde is now an > expensive relic of a wrong-headed policy. Subsonic wide body planes > built by private enterprise carry the bulk of the flying public. This is easy to say with hindsight. Back when it was being made, people didn't know that there was going to be an oil crisis and it was generally believed that supersonic travel would be the future. The 747 was originally designed to be a freighter. Policy-wise, it's difficult to assess if Concorde was the right or wrong thing to do, since at least it maintained and developed aerospace knowhow in Europe, which was needed to get the Airbus consortium off the ground later on. It wasn't necessary for that, but it definitely made it easier since it provided an example of international co-operation in that field. -JJ ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:13:47 -0400 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de Msx/UNgARP5JUL4L+KMShg0miZer5WAQgyjeOgq5LlCRL0fSw= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159261 Jussi Jaatinen wrote: > This is easy to say with hindsight. Back when it was being made, > people > didn't know that there was going to be an oil crisis and it was > generally believed that supersonic travel would be the future. The 747 > was originally designed to be a freighter. Even without an oil crisis Concorde was a looser. It did not carry a big enough payload. It was strictly for the rich and famous. And yes, it is easier to put seats in a freighter and convert a luxury yacht to freight carrying. Concorde simply did not scale up for a good payload like the slower wide bodies. Concorde was the result of a bad case of penis envy on the part of the Frogs and the Brits. The Frogs hate the U.S. because Americans are better, braver, richer and have bigger dongs than they. The Brits are sad because they use to own us and new we own them. Bob Kolker ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: 5 Aug 2004 17:42:56 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de KewGVHbHbdA7seJDdc2vAQZAtYwqxMUC5AgLpoBrnBiBLZMrAY User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159264 On 3 Aug 2004 19:52:45 -0700, Johnny1A wrote: > Glenn Holliday wrote in message news:<41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org>... > > One difference between the Gondorians and the modern industrial > 'mindset': the Gondorians built to last. 'Planned obsolesence' > wasn't a goal of theirs, they designed Minas Tirith to last for > millennia. Thus there wasn't a boundless appetite for new mines and > new environmental damage, they could 'do their work' and stop. Frankly I think the Numenoreans largely stopped due to wars and internal dissent. Gondor waned until whatever sort of industrial complex there was was bent towards war with Mordor. Remember, it was the Numenoreans that denuded many of the forests of the northwest of Middle Earth. I rather get the impression that Gondor throughout the Third Age was like Rome, steadily waning, and ultimately, while still a militarily impressive state, no longer capable of the sort major construction projects seen in earlier times. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: "John Jones" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 19:17:01 +0100 Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.137.66.172 X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 1091809123 30176 62.137.66.172 (6 Aug 2004 16:18:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 2004 16:18:43 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159337 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message news:2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de... > > > Jussi Jaatinen wrote: > > > > This is easy to say with hindsight. Back when it was being made, people > > didn't know that there was going to be an oil crisis and it was > > generally believed that supersonic travel would be the future. The 747 > > was originally designed to be a freighter. > > Even without an oil crisis Concorde was a looser. It did not carry a big > enough payload. It was strictly for the rich and famous. And yes, it is > easier to put seats in a freighter and convert a luxury yacht to freight > carrying. > In reality, the Concorde was sabotaged by the Americans because they weren't able to make an SST themselves. For confirmation of American attitudes, see below. And they wonder why nobody likes them ... > Concorde simply did not scale up for a good payload like the slower wide > bodies. Concorde was the result of a bad case of penis envy on the part > of the Frogs and the Brits. The Frogs hate the U.S. because Americans > are better, braver, richer and have bigger dongs than they. The Brits > are sad because they use to own us and new we own them. > > Bob Kolker > > ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 17:33:30 -0500 From: Swyck@nospam.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 18:33:29 -0400 Message-ID: <50d5h01tsl91kp8h04sae8tei6a9q25mq4@4ax.com> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.37.14.153 X-Trace: sv3-sBGN2cyFmr/4azeO43tEtttCtyBt6iC0DzYUlJ+oAbUrHA82fToaq26uJJ9tKTH0M+Q2k/qKTcZdEMx!qnGvxcKhot6BGF7mSq2wujSr/8MCbpRK4ngG4sJq4B0/0HN1SBsOuK0Ii6QR4qeYMcoFpxE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159282 On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 06:25:26 -0400, "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > >Johnny1A wrote: >> To be fair, even on a practical level Tolkien may well have had a >> point. The Concorde project has turned out to be of questionable >> practical value, even in purely economic terms. Ditto the 'Chunnel'. > >It was a government boondogle and a loser. The Concorde is now an >expensive relic of a wrong-headed policy. Subsonic wide body planes >built by private enterprise carry the bulk of the flying public. > It was my understanding that the Chunnel is a loser simply from a profit standpoint, not from its practical value. Most railroads and all public transportation can be considered failures from that point of view, since few if any show a profit. Many people would say that they redeem the investment in other ways. Just because its not profitable doesn't mean its not useful. I don't really know how popular or easy to use the chunnel is. It should have been able to make travel between Britain and the continent easier. Hasn't it done that? Swyck ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 19:46:34 -0400 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <2nfv6rFhmh5U1@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <50d5h01tsl91kp8h04sae8tei6a9q25mq4@4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de uNqY2aqdAWYhA6wJUwlW2QNmcIO4DffkoI8Rs/vZs+XJSRCEM= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <50d5h01tsl91kp8h04sae8tei6a9q25mq4@4ax.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159283 Swyck@nospam.com wrote: > It was my understanding that the Chunnel is a loser simply from a > profit standpoint, not from its practical value. Most railroads and > all public transportation can be considered failures from that point > of view, since few if any show a profit. Many people would say that > they redeem the investment in other ways. Just because its not > profitable doesn't mean its not useful. I would believe this if investors freely invested in such iconic projects for rewards other than profit. But, Concorde, Chunnel and many others where Pyramid Building enterprises funded by taxes. Taxation is theft by government, so the funds used for these boondoggles was taken by force. One would think the Chunnel would show a profit because it makes so much sense. Why doesn't it show a profit over the long haul. Are the usage fees too low? Are there competing ways of moving freight and people between Dover and Calais that are more cost effective? If the Chunnel does not meet a need, why whas it built? Bob Kolker ###### Message-ID: <41136527.AEE1CEB9@nowhere.org> From: Jussi Jaatinen <1.1@nowhere.org> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:03:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.21.37.149 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1091790213 172.21.37.149 (Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:03:33 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:03:33 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!nntpfeed.zonnet.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159314 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > The Frogs hate the U.S. because Americans > are better, braver, richer and have bigger dongs than they. The Brits > are sad because they use to own us and new we own them. Killfile, Bob. Bob, killfile. BR, -JJ ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:18:36 -0400 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <2ni0buF139r9U1@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de unqaoG66njGiqNYQcj0F7gFF24KpsuF0LRjWE4Bsf+PjYMyPA= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159348 John Jones wrote: > In reality, the Concorde was sabotaged by the Americans because they weren't > able to make an SST themselves. For confirmation of American attitudes, see > below. And they wonder why nobody likes them ... And a damned good thing they either could not or did not. The only place one can fly the damned thing is over water because of the sonic shock wave. The race for a supersonic transport was a race best lost. A supersonic airplane has limited uses. It is great as a war plane and terrible as a commercial passenger and freight carrier. If you really must have speed dig a tunnel under the earth between New York and London. Travel time is 42 minutes. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Bruce Tucker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 14:49:49 -0400 Organization: LexisNexis, Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.121.40.95 X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 1091818190 9905 10.121.40.95 (6 Aug 2004 18:49:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@lexisnexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 18:49:50 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!news-out.octanews.net!petbe.visi.com!ash.uu.net!lexisnexis.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159351 "John Jones" wrote > In reality, the Concorde was sabotaged by the Americans because they > weren't able to make an SST themselves. Could you please explain how, exactly, the Americans "sabotaged" the Concorde project? > because they weren't able to make an SST themselves. The US was perfectly able to build an SST, but quite sensibly chose not to, canceling funding in 1972 out of respect for the environment and the comparatively nasty damage (chiefly the sonic booms and the damage to the ozone layer from high-altitude flights) each SST flight would inflict on it compared to conventional air transport. Aside from there concerns, Concorde was a loser because the SST concept made (and makes) no economic sense using the technology of the 1960s (or today, for that matter). It used expensive fuel prodigiously for little purpose. Few travelers are willing to pay nearly ten times the cost of an ordinary first-class ticket merely to shave a few hours off in-cabin flight time when all the other hassles of commercial air travel remain unmitigated. The Concorde was essentially the Hummer of the skies, a giant, showy, enormously expensive, and environmentally destructive status symbol for spoiled rich folk, without even the military justification for the vast fortunes spent on its development. -- Bruce Tucker disintegration @ mindspring.com ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:01:45 -0400 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <2ni9tqF15e9dU2@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de +we8zRvuNHxvskMyv1BxNQSoP6h7mxyJZ55ZIDLJ0lIf7yEIM= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159367 Bruce Tucker wrote: > unmitigated. The Concorde was essentially the Hummer of the skies, a > giant, showy, enormously expensive, and environmentally destructive > status symbol for spoiled rich folk, without even the military > justification for the vast fortunes spent on its development. It was pyramid building indulged in by the French and the Brits, mostly for bogus reasons of national pride. The Concorde made and still makes no sense. A case could be made for the Chunnel. Bob Kolker > ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: 6 Aug 2004 16:22:26 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <50d5h01tsl91kp8h04sae8tei6a9q25mq4@4ax.com> <2nfv6rFhmh5U1@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.128.228.180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1091834546 14611 127.0.0.1 (6 Aug 2004 23:22:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 23:22:26 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159382 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message news:<2nfv6rFhmh5U1@uni-berlin.de>... > > One would think the Chunnel would show a profit because it makes so much > sense. Why doesn't it show a profit over the long haul. Are the usage > fees too low? Are there competing ways of moving freight and people > between Dover and Calais that are more cost effective? I could be wrong, but from what I've read and heard, the last is the case. The problem is that the Chunnel is _inherently_ expensive, since it has to be ventilated, insured, inspected, etc, etc. From what I've been told, the ferry operators can basically undercut the Chunnel at will. The Chunnel is convenient, but perhaps not enough more convenient, to cover its costs. Shermanlee ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: 6 Aug 2004 21:26:23 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.128.228.173 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1091852783 27665 127.0.0.1 (7 Aug 2004 04:26:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 04:26:23 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159405 "John Jones" wrote in message news:... > In reality, the Concorde was sabotaged by the Americans because they weren't > able to make an SST themselves. For confirmation of American attitudes, see > below. And they wonder why nobody likes them ... If you're going to make accusations, make sensible ones, rather than sounding like a mirror image of one of Robert's silly rants. America knows exactly how to make SSTs, so do all the other major industrial nations. Concorde failed because it was faster than the 747s, but not _enough_ faster to justify the considerably higher price per trip (necessary because of the higher maintenance costs, greater fuel consumption, and other expenses SSTs necessarily have) on the Atlantic run, and it lacked the range to make the Pacific crossings, which is where supersonic speed would really be useful. Add in the low cargo/passenger capacity of the Concorde (which is _much_ smaller than a 747 or an Airbus) and you have the real-world explantion for its lack of success. Nobody sabotaged anything. Shermanlee ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: 6 Aug 2004 21:30:10 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2ni0buF139r9U1@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.128.228.173 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1091853011 27817 127.0.0.1 (7 Aug 2004 04:30:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 04:30:11 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159407 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message news:<2ni0buF139r9U1@uni-berlin.de>... > John Jones wrote: > > > In reality, the Concorde was sabotaged by the Americans because they weren't > > able to make an SST themselves. For confirmation of American attitudes, see > > below. And they wonder why nobody likes them ... > > And a damned good thing they either could not or did not. The only place > one can fly the damned thing is over water because of the sonic shock > wave. The race for a supersonic transport was a race best lost. > > A supersonic airplane has limited uses. It is great as a war plane and > terrible as a commercial passenger and freight carrier. If you could make one fuel-efficient and low-maintenance enough to be viable, an SST could be very useful for trans-Pacific crossings, where the distances are so much greater than the Atlantic. But it's a serious technical challenge to make an SST cheap enough, reliable enough, efficient enough, and long-ranged enough for that market. Shermanlee ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 07:31:11 -0400 Lines: 15 Message-ID: <2njss0F1edvtU2@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de GZGV6ua9Ab76c80+M/5aWQZucwmfIa8cGQCiewNyxJSJJsoBo= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159426 Johnny1A wrote: > Concorde failed because it was faster than the 747s, but not _enough_ > faster to justify the considerably higher price per trip (necessary > because of the higher maintenance costs, greater fuel consumption, and > other expenses SSTs necessarily have) on the Atlantic run, and it > lacked the range to make the Pacific crossings, which is where > supersonic speed would really be useful. There is only one solution. Dig a tunnel connecting Los Angeles and Tokyo. The trip will take 42 minutes. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 07:34:41 -0400 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <2njt2jF1m67aU1@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2ni0buF139r9U1@uni-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 5LtL9DeuANKtyW4E45zEswL8Ktn2An3ckIg3uI7As+E1Rgq9Q= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159427 Johnny1A wrote: > If you could make one fuel-efficient and low-maintenance enough to be > viable, an SST could be very useful for trans-Pacific crossings, where > the distances are so much greater than the Atlantic. But it's a > serious technical challenge to make an SST cheap enough, reliable > enough, efficient enough, and long-ranged enough for that market. Even if such a plane were built, it could never carry enough cargo. Better to use teleconferencing for trans-Pacific business. Light travels 186,000 miles per second and it does not weigh much. The only hope for really -fast- cargo transfer, is a tunnel. Of course the Coriolis force will require that the tunnel does not have too much north south extension. Bob Kolker ###### Message-ID: <4114DE8B.C197FC0C@nowhere.org> From: Jussi Jaatinen <1.1@nowhere.org> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 13:48:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.163.25.197 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1091886502 10.163.25.197 (Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:48:22 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:48:22 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159437 Bruce Tucker wrote: > Few travelers are willing to pay nearly ten times the cost of > an ordinary first-class ticket merely to shave a few hours off in-cabin > flight time when all the other hassles of commercial air travel remain > unmitigated. For the record, BA charged about USD8k for the Concorde and USD6k for First class London-New York flights. So the difference isn't "ten times". -JJ ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2n80nvFtaqfvU3@uni-berlin.de> <410f2a07.73540058@news.saix.net> <2n97s7Fu6amhU1@uni-berlin.de> Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Lines: 29 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <2ewRc.1650$Az6.17346794@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 20:41:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1091997694 82.43.162.58 (Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:41:34 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:41:34 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159555 Robert J. Kolker wrote: > Steve Hayes wrote: >> But yes, one can detect in his books that he prefered a mode of >> production where things were made for use rather than profit. He was >> unconcerned with the bottom line, and disliked industrial methods >> that produced pollution. > > A perfectly reasonable position. Better we should get our goodies > without pollution than with pollution. Of course, that means they will > cost more. Only in strict short-term economics. Ultimately polluting methods cost more when you factor in health costs (treating the illnesses of pollution), human costs (the deaths caused by pollution), the environmental cost (very difficult to quantify) and the costs of dealing with the waste from a 'disposable' culture The trick is to make sure that the solution is genuinely better (recycling paper is environmentally unfriendly when it involves bleaching the paper), and to carry out a complete, long-term, accurate and honest cradle-to-grave risk-benefit analysis. Of course, hardly any of those adjectives describe Big Business. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2ni0buF139r9U1@uni-berlin.de> <2njt2jF1m67aU1@uni-berlin.de> Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Lines: 17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 20:47:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1091998061 82.43.162.58 (Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:47:41 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:47:41 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159556 Robert J. Kolker wrote: > The only hope for really -fast- cargo transfer, is a tunnel. Of course > the Coriolis force will require that the tunnel does not have too much > north south extension. Oh go on... Say what happens to a north-south tunnel on a spinning Earth. Or what happens to people travelling on it. And how fast is travel via Clarke's orbital towers joined by a ring, and can they be extended to cover non-equatorial regions? Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2ni9tqF15e9dU2@uni-berlin.de> Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Lines: 16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 20:51:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1091998282 82.43.162.58 (Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:51:22 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:51:22 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!195.14.215.231.MISMATCH!news.netcologne.de!newsfeed-fusi.netcologne.de!news.zanker.org!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159557 Robert J. Kolker wrote: > The Concorde made and still makes no sense. A case could be > made for the Chunnel. So what is good and bad about the Chunnel? Apart from the fact that my train was delayed on the English side and made me miss my night-train connection from Brussels? (I still got put up in a hotel overnight by Eurostar!) Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2njss0F1edvtU2@uni-berlin.de> Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Lines: 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 20:54:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1091998472 82.43.162.58 (Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:54:32 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:54:32 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159558 Robert J. Kolker wrote: > There is only one solution. Dig a tunnel connecting Los Angeles and > Tokyo. The trip will take 42 minutes. Hang on. You said that for the New York-London tunnel. There is obviously some physics going on here. Are you digging a specially shaped tunnel here with that funny coroid (or something) geometry? ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <50d5h01tsl91kp8h04sae8tei6a9q25mq4@4ax.com> <2nfv6rFhmh5U1@uni-berlin.de> Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Lines: 20 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:00:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1091998806 82.43.162.58 (Sun, 08 Aug 2004 22:00:06 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 22:00:06 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.zanker.org!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159559 Johnny1A wrote: > The Chunnel is convenient, but perhaps not enough more convenient, to > cover its costs. Oh it is convenient for travelling to Brussels and Paris from London, but the problem recently was the rise of the budget airlines. They _also_ undercut the Chunnel. I travelled outwards by Chunnel because there was a good combined deal for the onwards travel, but had to come back by ferry because the deal was one-way. Having travelled to and from the continent by Chunnel and ferry, I can say that the Chunnel is much more convenient, but much more expensive. And air travel is just horrendous anyway. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 17:03:42 -0400 Lines: 32 Message-ID: <2nniphF2pdtfU1@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2ni9tqF15e9dU2@uni-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de UZSwkD0kXSqjzm0bJo+GIQFI9o+3mTFKmKoqOZfMqHkW6SQ5o= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159560 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > Robert J. Kolker wrote: > >>The Concorde made and still makes no sense. A case could be >>made for the Chunnel. > So what is good and bad about the Chunnel? Apart from the fact that > my > train was delayed on the English side and made me miss my night-train > connection from Brussels? (I still got put up in a hotel overnight by > Eurostar!) The Good News. One can get from Here to There even when there is a raging storm in the Channel. The railroad ride is weather-proof. After you get off the train, you are on your own. I imagine the train ride takes a shorter time than the boat ride. It is twenty five miles across between Dover and Calais. A ferry does what? Thirty knots top speed? Hydroplane fast boats are touchy in the chop so bad weather will limit them. The train should be able to go at least 100 km/hr and probably faster than that. You sound like a well travelled person. How long did the Dover-Calais run take before the Chunnel? The Bad News is the cost of maintainance. The rails have to be inspected and the tunnel must be checked to see whether it leaks. Also it is a target for terrorist attack. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 17:06:18 -0400 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <2nniucF2pdtfU2@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2njss0F1edvtU2@uni-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de qeZx8qeqnu5cbHesUXL1tAdouLP3iwUZnyhldDT3yClHD5wkU= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159561 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > Robert J. Kolker wrote: > >>There is only one solution. Dig a tunnel connecting Los Angeles and >>Tokyo. The trip will take 42 minutes. > Hang on. You said that for the New York-London tunnel. There is > obviously some physics going on here. Are you digging a specially shaped > tunnel here with that funny coroid (or something) geometry? A gravity free fall drop through a tunnel takes half the time of a free fall orbit around the earth at 0 altitude. 42 = one half of 84. It does not matter which two points are connected. A free fall drop is 42 minutes. Of course I am ignoring the fact that the Coriolis effect will bang the tunnel vehicle against the side so some kind of rocket compensators will be required. It is a matter of elementary orbital mechanics. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 17:11:17 -0400 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <2nnj7nF2pdtfU5@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <50d5h01tsl91kp8h04sae8tei6a9q25mq4@4ax.com> <2nfv6rFhmh5U1@uni-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de gK5hQrd9dkTmDgsKRBuG8QB5GlcZ0ZpKfEm7XYYMIkvKAN+rU= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159565 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > back by ferry because the deal was one-way. Having travelled to and from > the continent by Chunnel and ferry, I can say that the Chunnel is much > more convenient, but much more expensive. And air travel is just > horrendous anyway. > You pays your money, you takes your choice. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2ni9tqF15e9dU2@uni-berlin.de> <2nniphF2pdtfU1@uni-berlin.de> Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Lines: 44 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:14:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1091999656 82.43.162.58 (Sun, 08 Aug 2004 22:14:16 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 22:14:16 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.telebyte.nl!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159566 Robert J. Kolker wrote: > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >> So what is good and bad about the Chunnel? > > The Good News. One can get from Here to There even when there is a > raging storm in the Channel. The railroad ride is weather-proof. Unless a tree blows onto the lines at either end... > After > you get off the train, you are on your own. I imagine the train ride > takes a shorter time than the boat ride. It is twenty five miles > across between Dover and Calais. A ferry does what? Thirty knots top > speed? Hydroplane fast boats are touchy in the chop so bad weather > will limit them. The train should be able to go at least 100 km/hr > and probably faster than that. You sound like a well travelled > person. How long did the Dover-Calais run take before the Chunnel? Um. Maybe 90mins to 2hrs. Not really sure. London to Brussels is 2.5hrs by Chunnel. Harwich to Hook of Holland is 4hrs. Leiden to London (including travel within London) on that ferry took about 9hrs (including transfer and check-in times). By Chunnel it would have been about 5hrs. And the ferry claimed to be and was very fast. I am cheating slightly here, as the location in London of the Chunnel and rail-sail terminals greatly affect the travel times in London, favouring the Chunnel option for me. > The Bad News is the cost of maintainance. The rails have to be > inspected and the tunnel must be checked to see whether it leaks. > Also it is a target for terrorist attack. Thanks for the reminder... I assume that the leaks are not seawater and that a bomb would not totally breach the tunnel but just collapse a section. They did dig a long way below the sea didn't they? Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2njss0F1edvtU2@uni-berlin.de> <2nniucF2pdtfU2@uni-berlin.de> Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Lines: 11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:16:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1091999791 82.43.162.58 (Sun, 08 Aug 2004 22:16:31 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 22:16:31 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159567 Robert J. Kolker wrote: > A gravity free fall drop through a tunnel takes half the time of a > free fall orbit around the earth at 0 altitude. 42 = one half of 84. > It does not matter which two points are connected. A free fall drop > is 42 minutes. Of course I am ignoring the fact that the Coriolis > effect will bang the tunnel vehicle against the side so some kind of > rocket compensators will be required. Imagine serving a meal on that trip... ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 05:13:37 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 36 Message-ID: <4116f350.26177535@news.saix.net> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2njss0F1edvtU2@uni-berlin.de> <2nniucF2pdtfU2@uni-berlin.de> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: tpr-ip-nas-1-p163.telkom-ipnet.co.za X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1092028752 29445 155.239.184.163 (9 Aug 2004 05:19:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Aug 2004 05:19:12 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!zen.net.uk!demorgan.zen.co.uk!194.72.9.35.MISMATCH!news-peer1!news-peer0-test!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159603 On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 17:06:18 -0400, "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > >Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > >> Robert J. Kolker wrote: >> >> >>>There is only one solution. Dig a tunnel connecting Los Angeles and >>>Tokyo. The trip will take 42 minutes. >> >> >> Hang on. You said that for the New York-London tunnel. There is >> obviously some physics going on here. Are you digging a specially shaped >> tunnel here with that funny coroid (or something) geometry? > >A gravity free fall drop through a tunnel takes half the time of a free >fall orbit around the earth at 0 altitude. 42 = one half of 84. It does >not matter which two points are connected. A free fall drop is 42 >minutes. Of course I am ignoring the fact that the Coriolis effect will >bang the tunnel vehicle against the side so some kind of rocket >compensators will be required. > >It is a matter of elementary orbital mechanics. That's new to me. I would have thought one would oscillate like a bungee jumper. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:36:57 -0400 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <2npcvsF37or3U1@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2njss0F1edvtU2@uni-berlin.de> <2nniucF2pdtfU2@uni-berlin.de> <4116f350.26177535@news.saix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de h7TaWG6qgS8boFW7UW78OgKrB4z/xHbkN4GwxIgUeHT6WDLg4= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <4116f350.26177535@news.saix.net> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159610 Steve Hayes wrote: > That's new to me. I would have thought one would oscillate like a > bungee > jumper. One would. Just is being in an external orbit means going around in ellipses. Assuming no friction there would be perpetual oscillation. Clearly if such a tunnel were dug the vehicles would need some kind of booster to make the final connection to a docking station. Basically it would require braking. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Bruce Tucker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:06:35 -0400 Organization: LexisNexis, Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2ni0buF139r9U1@uni-berlin.de> <2njt2jF1m67aU1@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.121.40.95 X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 1092063996 12639 10.121.40.95 (9 Aug 2004 15:06:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@lexisnexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:06:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsoutpeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsinpeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!ash.uu.net!lexisnexis.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159616 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote > The only hope for really -fast- cargo transfer, is a tunnel. Of course > the Coriolis force will require that the tunnel does not have too much > north south extension. What are you going to line your tunnel with? How are you going to ventilate and cool the interior? And what materials will the tunnel-going vessel be made of, that it can withstand the speeds you propose? For that matter, what are the aerodynamic implications of traveling several times the speed of sound within the tight confines of a tunnel? Won't your theoretical 42-minute transit time be greatly slowed as your vessel has to push a massive column of air ahead of it and drag an equally massive column of air behind it? Or are you proposing an enormous tunnel and a relatively tiny vessel? Even then aerodynamic drag will eventually put an upper limit on its velocity, I'd think far short of what would be required. Anyway, it's not going to be very popular once potential customers realize how toasty their cargo is going to get on the trip through. -- Bruce Tucker disintegration @ mindspring.com ###### Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 21:25:09 +0100 From: Andy Cooke User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2njss0F1edvtU2@uni-berlin.de> <2nniucF2pdtfU2@uni-berlin.de> In-Reply-To: <2nniucF2pdtfU2@uni-berlin.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 52 Message-ID: <4117ddd0$0$20249$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 09 Aug 2004 20:25:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 81-178-196-33.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1092083152 news-text.dial.pipex.com 20249 81.178.196.33:4351 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.osn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsoutpeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsinpeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159642 Robert J. Kolker wrote: > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > >> Robert J. Kolker wrote: >> >> >>> There is only one solution. Dig a tunnel connecting Los Angeles and >>> Tokyo. The trip will take 42 minutes. >> >> >> >> Hang on. You said that for the New York-London tunnel. There is >> obviously some physics going on here. Are you digging a specially shaped >> tunnel here with that funny coroid (or something) geometry? > A gravity free fall drop through a tunnel takes half the time of a > free fall orbit around the earth at 0 altitude. 42 = one half of > 84. It does not matter which two points are connected. A free fall > drop is 42 minutes. Of course I am ignoring the fact that the > Coriolis effect will bang the tunnel vehicle against the side so > some kind of rocket compensators will be required. > It is a matter of elementary orbital mechanics. > Could you show me the equations involved? After all, as the distance travelled tends to zero, we get some very counter-intuitive results (e.g. for a tunnel of 1 mile, a journey time of half an orbit would seem excessive). I can see a tunnel bored through the centre of the Earth having a one-way trip time of 42 minutes - a round trip being equivalent to an orbit. I also find it difficult to construct a free-fall trajectory that's not aimed directly at the centre of the Earth without a sideways impulse of some kind delivered to the vehicle - as the trajectory departs from one through the core towards one at right angles to the core, the sideways impulse has to deliver a velocity tending from zero (through core) towards c. 7.8 km per second - so you may as well dispense with the (rather noticeable) cost of drilling your thoasands-of-kilometres-long tunnel (and, I presume, evacuating it of air and keeping it in vacuum) and simply go for vehicles doing sub-orbital hops. -- Andy Cooke ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 16:43:30 -0400 Lines: 12 Message-ID: <2nq5vmF3gc46U3@uni-berlin.de> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2ni0buF139r9U1@uni-berlin.de> <2njt2jF1m67aU1@uni-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de YfaXsTlQkLwWXmbGxippqQDFX1jTrFgaNiCvK2OHJWHx2A01E= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159648 Bruce Tucker wrote: > What are you going to line your tunnel with? Mithril and Lembas. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2njss0F1edvtU2@uni-berlin.de> <2nniucF2pdtfU2@uni-berlin.de> <4116f350.26177535@news.saix.net> <2npcvsF37or3U1@uni-berlin.de> Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Lines: 20 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 23:08:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1092092936 82.43.162.58 (Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:08:56 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:08:56 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159688 Robert J. Kolker wrote: > Steve Hayes wrote: >> That's new to me. I would have thought one would oscillate like a >> bungee jumper. > One would. Just is being in an external orbit means going around in > ellipses. Assuming no friction there would be perpetual oscillation. > Clearly if such a tunnel were dug the vehicles would need some kind of > booster to make the final connection to a docking station. Basically > it would require braking. Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your Captain speaking. I am sorry to have to report that the New York docking station failed to catch us. We are now falling back towards London. The next scheduled stop at New York will be in 84 minutes. We apologise for the delay. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2njss0F1edvtU2@uni-berlin.de> <2nniucF2pdtfU2@uni-berlin.de> <4117ddd0$0$20249$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Lines: 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 23:11:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1092093085 82.43.162.58 (Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:11:25 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:11:25 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159689 Andy Cooke wrote: > so you may as well dispense with the (rather noticeable) cost of > drilling your thoasands-of-kilometres-long tunnel (and, I presume, > evacuating it of air and keeping it in vacuum) and simply go for > vehicles doing sub-orbital hops. What? Like SpaceShipOne? :-) ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: 9 Aug 2004 22:15:49 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2ni0buF139r9U1@uni-berlin.de> <2njt2jF1m67aU1@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.128.228.214 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1092114969 30606 127.0.0.1 (10 Aug 2004 05:16:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 05:16:09 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159711 "Bruce Tucker" wrote in message news:... > "Robert J. Kolker" wrote > > > The only hope for really -fast- cargo transfer, is a tunnel. Of course > > the Coriolis force will require that the tunnel does not have too much > > north south extension. > > What are you going to line your tunnel with? How are you going to > ventilate and cool the interior? And what materials will the > tunnel-going vessel be made of, that it can withstand the speeds you > propose? For that matter, what are the aerodynamic implications of > traveling several times the speed of sound within the tight confines of > a tunnel? Won't your theoretical 42-minute transit time be greatly > slowed as your vessel has to push a massive column of air ahead of it > and drag an equally massive column of air behind it? This idea is generally proposed with the assumption that the tunnel is sustained in a vacuum state. Once you pump out all the air, several problems vanish. Of course, the _big_ problem remains: creating such a system surpasses our current engineering abilities by an emormous margin. Shermanlee ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: 9 Aug 2004 22:16:38 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2ni0buF139r9U1@uni-berlin.de> <2njt2jF1m67aU1@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.128.228.214 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1092115016 30629 127.0.0.1 (10 Aug 2004 05:16:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 05:16:56 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159712 "Bruce Tucker" wrote in message news:... > "Robert J. Kolker" wrote > > > The only hope for really -fast- cargo transfer, is a tunnel. Of course > > the Coriolis force will require that the tunnel does not have too much > > north south extension. > > What are you going to line your tunnel with? How are you going to > ventilate and cool the interior? And what materials will the > tunnel-going vessel be made of, that it can withstand the speeds you > propose? For that matter, what are the aerodynamic implications of > traveling several times the speed of sound within the tight confines of > a tunnel? Won't your theoretical 42-minute transit time be greatly > slowed as your vessel has to push a massive column of air ahead of it > and drag an equally massive column of air behind it? This idea is generally proposed with the assumption that the tunnel is sustained in a vacuum state. Once you pump out all the air, several problems vanish. Of course, the _big_ problem remains: creating such a system surpasses our current engineering abilities by an emormous margin. Shermanlee ###### From: "Bruce Tucker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:56:24 -0400 Organization: LexisNexis, Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2ni0buF139r9U1@uni-berlin.de> <2njt2jF1m67aU1@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.121.40.95 X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 1092156991 30763 10.121.40.95 (10 Aug 2004 16:56:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@lexisnexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:56:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news-out.visi.com!news-out.octanews.net!petbe.visi.com!ash.uu.net!lexisnexis.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159730 "Johnny1A" wrote > This idea is generally proposed with the assumption that the tunnel is > sustained in a vacuum state. Once you pump out all the air, several > problems vanish. You've only replaced one set of impossible engineering problems with another. How on earth are you going to maintain such a vacuum using pumps 1500 miles back up the tunnel? And you're back to the problem of the lining - IIRC there's a lot of dissolved gas in the earth's interior that's going to seep into your tunnel (and it's going to be a nasty, corrosive environment at that). Frankly, I don't think the concept is workable even in theory - you'd use up more energy maintaining the vacuum than you'd use just lobbing your cargo over in a ballistic arc. And then without circulating air in the tunnel you're also back to the question of how the heck you cool anything passing through. The walls are going to be *very* hot and therefore going to radiate a lot of heat onto your vessel. You can't just put big radiator fins or some such on it because they'd just be more surface area to absorb more radiated heat from the tunnel walls. I suppose you could put canisters of compressed gas on the ship and release it to vent heat and chill coolant which could be circulated through the vessel, but would this be enough to counteract the enormous amount of heat absorbed in passing through the earth's mantle? Somehow I doubt it. -- Bruce Tucker disintegration @ mindspring.com ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2ni0buF139r9U1@uni-berlin.de> <2njt2jF1m67aU1@uni-berlin.de> Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Lines: 40 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:23:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1092169417 82.43.162.58 (Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:23:37 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:23:37 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159746 Bruce Tucker wrote: > "Johnny1A" wrote > >> This idea is generally proposed with the assumption that the tunnel >> is sustained in a vacuum state. Once you pump out all the air, >> several problems vanish. > > You've only replaced one set of impossible engineering problems with > another. How on earth are you going to maintain such a vacuum using > pumps 1500 miles back up the tunnel? And you're back to the problem of > the lining - IIRC there's a lot of dissolved gas in the earth's > interior that's going to seep into your tunnel (and it's going to be > a nasty, corrosive environment at that). Frankly, I don't think the > concept is workable even in theory - you'd use up more energy > maintaining the vacuum than you'd use just lobbing your cargo over in > a ballistic arc. Or using some system of orbital towers. > And then without circulating air in the tunnel you're also back to the > question of how the heck you cool anything passing through. The walls > are going to be *very* hot and therefore going to radiate a lot of > heat onto your vessel. You can't just put big radiator fins or some > such on it because they'd just be more surface area to absorb more > radiated heat from the tunnel walls. I suppose you could put > canisters of compressed gas on the ship and release it to vent heat > and chill coolant which could be circulated through the vessel, but > would this be enough to counteract the enormous amount of heat > absorbed in passing through the earth's mantle? Somehow I doubt it. Um. This enormous source of heat. The heat from the Earth's mantle. Why not harness it to help solve some of these 'impossible' engineering problems? You have to think outside the box you know... Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Bruce Tucker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:26:14 -0400 Organization: LexisNexis, Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <0yxPc.1399037$Ar.144570@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <2nbrssFu5ps6U1@uni-berlin.de> <4111F169.440F8ECD@nowhere.org> <2netksF5vdaU1@uni-berlin.de> <2ni0buF139r9U1@uni-berlin.de> <2njt2jF1m67aU1@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.121.40.95 X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 1092237975 10012 10.121.40.95 (11 Aug 2004 15:26:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@lexisnexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:26:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!newshub3.home.nl!home.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!uunet!ash.uu.net!lexisnexis.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:159803 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote > Um. This enormous source of heat. The heat from the Earth's mantle. Why > not harness it to help solve some of these 'impossible' engineering > problems? You have to think outside the box you know... For the first - maintaining the vacuum - that *might* be a theoretical possibility, although it would be tough. For the second, cooling the ship passing through is, I think, not even theoretically possible by this method. Second Law of Thermodynamics. It can't used absorbed heat as a power source for a cooling system designed to dump absorbed heat - for such a system to work its efficiency would have to be greater than 100%. None of this is to say that the engineering problems are inherently impossible - just that AFAICT they are much tougher for this mode of transport than they are for the other, much more accessible ballistic path, up and over rather than down and under. Of course you do have the problem of engineering a soft landing at the other end, but that strikes me as easier than developing structural materials that can withstand sustained temperatures upwards of 2500 degrees C. -- Bruce Tucker disintegration @ mindspring.com ###### Message-ID: <412E96BA.DF778A0E@acm.org> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:04:50 -0400 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <9lvqg01jevp4h9nko8277gs1vvrtnqd2sf@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 202 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.119 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1093572269 9086 207.199.164.119 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:160743 Belba Grubb from Stock wrote: > > >On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:07:43 -0400, Glenn Holliday spake... > > This is one of those situations where I hope it's all right to talk a > bit before quoting the post I'm responding to. It has been a little > while, with many bytes having passed under the bridge in the interval, > so please let me try to restate things just to make sure I'm not > totally clueless here. (Warning: this is going to be very long.) Yes, it took me a while to scan for specific examples. And I did begin this reply in July, but it's been a hectic August :-) Barb, I enjoy your comments very much. I dashed off a quick connection, and you are forcing me to think much more widely than I did when I wrote my first comment. Thanks. I'm going to snip and shorten a bit, and try to do justice to your thoughts: > You passed along Churchill's quote: > > "But if we fail, then the whole world, including the > United States, including all that we have known and cared for, > will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, > and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted > science." > > I responded with a 1905 quote from a popular work by the British > writer G. K. Chesterton that, among other things, seemed to show more > tolerance, or perhaps wonder is a better word, for the results of > science: > > "To the child the tree and the lamp-post are as natural > and as artificial as each other; or rather, neither of them > are natural but both supernatural. For both are splendid > and unexplained. The flower with which God crowns the one, > and the flame with which Sam the lamplighter crowns the > other, are equally of the gold of fairy-tales." ... > I remarked that "it might rather spring from the native understanding > that such dichotomies of good-bad, new-old, etc., are artificial and a > symptom of the mechanical mind rather than illustrative of anything in > the world as it actually is." ... > My point is that JRRT recognized that dichotomies are artificial and a > symptom of the mechanical mind, separate from the actual realities of > the world. The lamp-post example makes me think of C.S. Lewis' comment on this dichotomy: throw a mechanical artifact into the mythical ground and it becomes imbued with life and grows its own beauty. I'm sure you know the reference, but here it is anyway: in "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" one of the first wonders the children encounter in Narnia is a lamp-post growing out of the ground, Later in the Narnia series, though earlier in time within the stories, we learn that a character brought a piece of a London lamp-post into Narnia when everything was newly created. Once planted there, it acted like a cutting, and grew into a complete lamp-post. I suspect Tolkien would sympathize with that resolution of dichotomy. Though he disliked Lewis' Narnia works in general, I've never heard him mention that specific passage. > This may a good time to mention that JRRT's main gripe about the > street lamps of 1938 Britian was that they were mass-produced and > ugly, not that they were powered by electricity (whereas those in > which Chesterton found "the gold of fairy tales" were gas lamps lit by > hand): one has only to think of the "silver lamps" of the Elves of > Lorien and "the light of sun and star and moon in shining lamps of > crystal hewn undimmed by cloud or shade of night," shining in Moria > "for ever fair and bright" to recognize that JRRT found full measure > of wonder in what electricity could do for lighting. And don't forget the lamps of Illuin and Ormal, the Valar's first light for Middle-Earth. I always thought it was vaguely out of character for Tolkien to use mechanical artifacts for such an important work of the Valar. It felt similar to the early drafts in which Melkor built robot-like monsters. Tolkien abandoned those, and I wondered if he might not have abandoned the lamps as well. But now I wonder if he chose them precisely to point out that works of art are worthy of the Valar. Perhaps when Tolkien wrote against technology, he took an extreme position for literary purposes. As somebody pointed out, Tolkien did not object to owning an automobile. However, he did object to Oxford becoming a factory town. It appears he found value in individual machines, used well. What he warned against was not machines but, as Ciaran said, "the Machine." > That is to say, it's not the technology: it's the social, economic and > political spheres wherein the problem rests. I think you and I are saying much the same thing at this point. > But to say that either man's writing reflected his times is like, dare > I say it, treading on thin ice. :-) Well, I think any author can't help reflecting his or her times, but I'm not going to go off on that tangent. ... > But the main problem with Saruman, it seems to me, is not his > willingness to misuse technology; rather, it is his ambition. ,,, > All the rest of it, including > the wheels and metal and lack of care for growing things, came after > that. Yes, I agree absolutely. The association of bad Saruman with technology is a result, not the cause or root sickness of Saruman. > I would argue that our view of Tolkien's "anti-technology" mindset > actually reflects our own times more than it sheds any light on his > work or its relation to his own times. You are making an important point here. I think I only partially agree. > We are the mechanics; but > Tolkien, in spite of the rise of those mechanically minded labelers > mentioned above, still had a much broader field in which to take root > and flourish. It was still okay to include matters of the spirit in > one's thought and work. I'm not so sure. There are contemporary writers stuck in that context. But within our world there are many contexts and many cultures. ("Dominant culture" and "counter culture" is, IMO, a dichotomy of the type you discussed, that is not useful.) I came of age and first read Tolkien in the 1960s. There are also lots of writers today who work in matters of the spirit. That's been the case in every age. It's probably true today that writers of this type are found on niche best-seller lists more commonly than on the top 10. Our own context may blind us, but we are able to be aware of that problem and look beyond our context. That's why I started this thread by quoting Churchill rather than Abby Hoffman. > Indeed, I take this quote from "On Fairy-stories": > > Yet I suspect that this flower-and-butterfly minuteness [of > fairies] was also a product of "rationalization," which > transformed the glamour of Elfland into mere finesse... > I'll just ask if it's possible that > your view that there is not room for both the advance of technology > and the noble spirit of an earlier age is actually just another > product of the "rationalization" JRRT was talking about here, and > which he seemed to be distancing himself from. Originally I suggested that was Tolkien's view, and asked if his expression of that view was a reflection of his times. I do not personally agree with that view. I realize I set up a hard-edged proposition to make it easier to say a few things about it. You have successfully argued that Tolkien's view was not so hard-edged. Putting a hard edge on a proposition, and talking about things in a way that emphasizes extremes and divisions between views is an example of rationalization. It's running the more fuzzy reality through a rational filter in order to turn it into something that's easier to wave about and pass around the room. The view that there is not room for both the advance of technology and the noble spirit of an earlier age is likely to be a product of this kind of rationalization. > >There are also references to Numenorian technology > >(the walls of Orthanc and Minas Tirith). But those > >sound more like art than machine works. > > Not when angry Ents come visiting, or the army of the Witch-king lays > siege to your city...art takes on a very practical aspect then. What > is JRRT saying about art and practicality here, I wonder. I was thinking about a different distinction between Numenorian arts and (for example) Saruman's. The Numenorian walls, and the pre-Numenorian examples of the Silmarils and the Palantiri share some characteristics. Their desirable qualities are a result of how they are made more than of how they work. They do not act on the world. Could we say they mediate access to the world? (I might change my mind if I think more about that one.) I think it's clear that all good and noble things in Tolkien's world are also beautiful ones. In LOTR, we seldom see people distinguish between "high art" and practical artifacts that have artistic value. I expect Tolkien was conscious of that thread, since he surely knew that dichotomy was an invention of later human history. -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### Message-ID: <413C4A1B.DF894F98@acm.org> Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 07:29:32 -0400 From: Glenn Holliday Reply-To: holliday@acm.org Organization: What? Me worry? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <9lvqg01jevp4h9nko8277gs1vvrtnqd2sf@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.199.164.90 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 1094470180 15462 207.199.164.90 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161019 Belba Grubb from Stock wrote: > ... > My point is that JRRT recognized that dichotomies are artificial and a > symptom of the mechanical mind, separate from the actual realities of > the world. I wonder if there is another thing going on, more subtle than I had first suggested. As you and others said, calling Tolkien "anti-technology" is too simplistic. There is lots of evidence of him accepting and using examples of technology. I think we can see a difference in Tolkien's attitudes to different scales of use. Hobbiton has a mill, which the hobbits use. No reason it shouldn't exist. But the hobbits are dismayed in the "Cleansing" chapter to see that heavy industrial zoning has been extended to most of the town. The Elves and Dwarves have blacksmith shops, and the Dwarves even mine coal to support their forges. Tolkien speaks approvingly of the metal art they produce. But Tolkien speaks disapprovingly of Saruman denuding the entire ring of Isengard to turn it all into factories. Tolkien, as has been mentioned several times, bought an automobile. But he was upset when an automobile factory completely changed the character of the town of Oxford. Tolkien did not mind individual roads or machines. But he was upset when industrialization and roads displaced large parts of the English countryside. So I now think Tolkien implicitly presents a proposition that "technology can be OK, but carries a danger of overwhelming people and their environment." -- Glenn Holliday holliday@acm.org ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:05:42 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <9lvqg01jevp4h9nko8277gs1vvrtnqd2sf@4ax.com> <413C4A1B.DF894F98@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161021 "Glenn Holliday" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Hobbiton has a mill, which the hobbits use. No reason it >shouldn't exist. But the hobbits are dismayed in the >"Cleansing" chapter to see that heavy industrial zoning >has been extended to most of the town. I wonder. Is it the fact that the new mill is "industrial", or that it's polluting the air and water,(*) and the building itself is ugly? (*) "The Mirror of Galadriel" In a lot of places I get the sense that Tolkien is more against wanton destruction and waste more than against modern technology per se. It's hard to be sure, because the two do seem to go together. :-( I'm thinking of Treebeard's complaint that Orcs cut down trees "without even the bad excuse of feeding the fires" -- i.e., cutting them down wasn't good, but doing it with no need to use them for fuel, that made it worse. Cotton tells Merry about the new mill, and I get the sense that a big part of his outrage is that the old mill was able to handle all the grinding there was for it to do. In other words, it was the waste of pulling down something perfectly serviceable, and replacing it with something no more useful, that was the problem. But maybe I'm reading my own biases into Tolkien? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:27:09 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <9lvqg01jevp4h9nko8277gs1vvrtnqd2sf@4ax.com> <413C4A1B.DF894F98@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161026 Further thoughts: I wonder if Tolkien was anti-technology at all? When we say "technology" I think we are really saying "progress", viz the replacement of the old mill with the new mill, and the building of the "Council houses" in the Shire. I get the sense that he was not against progress as such, but against the idea of change for its own sake, the idea of replacing something old and pleasant with something new and ugly when there was no pressing need for the new thing. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### Reply-To: "Raven" From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <9lvqg01jevp4h9nko8277gs1vvrtnqd2sf@4ax.com> <413C4A1B.DF894F98@acm.org> Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 22:19:47 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.126 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1094509413 195.82.196.126 (Tue, 07 Sep 2004 00:23:33 CEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 00:23:33 CEST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161049 "Stan Brown" skrev i en meddelelse news:MPG.1ba62fb8394ca69c98c946@news.odyssey.net... > I get the sense that he was not against progress as such, but > against the idea of change for its own sake, the idea of replacing > something old and pleasant with something new and ugly when there > was no pressing need for the new thing. I get the idea that he would have approved of applying "If it ain't broke don't fix it" to the concept of technological and industrial progress. Ravnur. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.240.204 Reply-To: "Chris Wright" From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <9lvqg01jevp4h9nko8277gs1vvrtnqd2sf@4ax.com> <413C4A1B.DF894F98@acm.org> Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 06:22:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1094538146 64.59.144.74 (Tue, 07 Sep 2004 00:22:26 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 00:22:26 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161059 "Raven" wrote in message news:Fr5%c.3633$xU2.1105@news.get2net.dk... > "Stan Brown" skrev i en meddelelse > news:MPG.1ba62fb8394ca69c98c946@news.odyssey.net... > >> I get the sense that he was not against progress as such, but >> against the idea of change for its own sake, the idea of replacing >> something old and pleasant with something new and ugly when there >> was no pressing need for the new thing. > > I get the idea that he would have approved of applying "If it ain't > broke > don't fix it" to the concept of technological and industrial progress. > > Ravnur. I get the sense that Tolkien is against a few things, when it comes to technology: - wasting resources - polluting the earth - compromising aesthetics in the name of economy - marginalizing non-human species in the pursuit of human happiness ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:45:00 -0500 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: <1d9rj05pesc9hg32lg0p0ijgob904k0i8h@4ax.com> References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <9lvqg01jevp4h9nko8277gs1vvrtnqd2sf@4ax.com> <413C4A1B.DF894F98@acm.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 88 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161066 On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:27:09 -0400, Stan Brown wrote: >Further thoughts: > >I wonder if Tolkien was anti-technology at all? When we say >"technology" I think we are really saying "progress", viz the >replacement of the old mill with the new mill, and the building of >the "Council houses" in the Shire. > >I get the sense that he was not against progress as such, but >against the idea of change for its own sake, the idea of replacing >something old and pleasant with something new and ugly when there >was no pressing need for the new thing. You bring up a good point. He addresses it in "On Fairy-stories" while talking about escapism, and in the quote below he defines it not so much as Progress as an acute awareness in our own times of the ugliness and evil we are submerged in (note: he has addressed Progress a bit earlier in the essay, and can see that signs of Progress such as mass-produced street lamps are impermanent (as well as ugly), whereas something like lightning, which we will always have with us in unchanged form, is permanent and therefore more a matter of Faerie). It is part of the essential malady of such days- producing the desire to escape, not indeed from life, but from our present time and self-made misery- that we are acutely conscious both of the ugliness of our works, and of their evil. So that to us evil and ugliness seem indissolubly allied. We find it difficult to conceive of evil and beauty together. The fear of the beautiful fay that ran through the elder ages almost eludes our grasp. Even more alarming: goodness is itself bereft of its proper beauty. In Faerie one can indeed conceive of an ogre who possesses a castle hideous as a nightmare (for the evil of the ogre wills it so), but one cannot conceive of a house built with a good purpose-an inn, a hostel for travellers, the hall of a virtuous and noble king-that is yet sickeningly ugly. At the present day it would be rash to hope to see one that was not-unless it was built before our time. This, however, is the modern and special (or accidental) escapist" aspect of fairy-stories, which they share with romances, and other stories out of or about the past. Many tories out of the past have only become "escapist" in their appeal through surviving from a time when men were as a rule delighted with the work of their hands into our time, when many men feel disgust with man-made things. But there are also other and more profound "escapisms" that have always appeared in fairy-tale and legend. There are other things more grim and terrible to fly from than the noise, stench, ruthlessness, and extravagance of the internal-combustion engine. There are hunger, thirst, poverty, pain, sorrow, injustice, death. And even when men are not facing hard things such as these, there are ancient limitations from which fairy-stories offer a sort of escape, and old ambitions and desires (touching the very roots of fantasy) to which they offer a kind of satisfaction and consolation.... Just as an aside, it's an interesting observation he made back in the late 30s, especially seen from the perspective of these current times of moral equivalency, about goodness having lost its beauty. And many volumes could be written about today's failure to see evil and beauty coexisting in one place. Getting back to the main thought, JRRT does not here bring up pressing need as any justification for something new and ugly: there are still such needs today for inns and hostels and virtuous kings. A bit earlier in the essay he has actually wondered, internally and rather anarchically, whether those who respond to such pressing needs might better have included fairy-stories, or at least fantasy, in their childhood and academic studies: From the wildness of my heart I cannot exclude the question whether railway-engineers, if they had been brought up on more fantasy, might not have done better with all their abundant means than they commonly do. Fairy-stories might be, I guess, better Masters of Arts than the academic person I have referred to. Of course, today engineers of all sorts, planners, architects, etc., have all probably gotten a surfeit of both fantasy and fairy-stories in their upbringing and education. Are we happier with man-made things as a result? Possibly. Barb ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:49:40 -0500 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <9lvqg01jevp4h9nko8277gs1vvrtnqd2sf@4ax.com> <413C4A1B.DF894F98@acm.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 127 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161067 On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 07:29:32 -0400, Glenn Holliday wrote: >Belba Grubb from Stock wrote: >> >... >> My point is that JRRT recognized that dichotomies are artificial and a >> symptom of the mechanical mind, separate from the actual realities of >> the world. > >I wonder if there is another thing going on, more subtle than I >had first suggested. > >As you and others said, calling Tolkien "anti-technology" is >too simplistic. There is lots of evidence of him accepting >and using examples of technology. > >I think we can see a difference in Tolkien's attitudes >to different scales of use. > >Hobbiton has a mill, which the hobbits use. No reason it >shouldn't exist. But the hobbits are dismayed in the >"Cleansing" chapter to see that heavy industrial zoning >has been extended to most of the town. > >The Elves and Dwarves have blacksmith shops, and the Dwarves >even mine coal to support their forges. Tolkien speaks >approvingly of the metal art they produce. But Tolkien >speaks disapprovingly of Saruman denuding the entire ring >of Isengard to turn it all into factories. > >Tolkien, as has been mentioned several times, bought an >automobile. But he was upset when an automobile factory >completely changed the character of the town of Oxford. In "Mr. Bliss," one finds an interesting, though certainly tongue-in-cheek, portrayal of how much even one car can complicate things. >Tolkien did not mind individual roads or machines. >But he was upset when industrialization and roads >displaced large parts of the English countryside. > >So I now think Tolkien implicitly presents a proposition >that "technology can be OK, but carries a danger of >overwhelming people and their environment." Perhaps you're right. He was explicit in "The Lord of the Rings": But there is nothing that Sauron cannot turn to evil uses...Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves. I can't comment very much on this in detail because I haven't read his biography, let alone the Letters, etc. But I can see this evidence of "an art deeper than we possess ourselves" in Ted Sandyman's getting Men to "build a bigger [mill] and fill it full o' wheels and outlandish contraptions," where Ted now labors for the Men where his father was once his own master. Technology can be liberating in JRRT's world -- it can make people masterful, as it has Sandyman's father and, most notably, the Dwarves. They understand the art which they practice, are not overwhelmed by it, and do not, as did the Noldor to both their glory and their regret, hunger for more technology and deeper knowledge. They use it to survive what might be called their diaspora, and later, when times are better, to get those non-technological things they need and enjoy. But there is nothing that Sauron can't turn to evil (Melkor's evil will still in the world, or if you will, fallen Man), and that evil is the more easily accessed when the technological art one is using is greater than one's innate ability to master it. Ted Sandyman becomes almost a slave in the business where his father was a free man. Saruman, once the superior of Gandalf in wisdom and skill, must answer to Sauron through the Palantir even as he decorates his fingers with rings and plots to become a power himself. Other examples come easily to mind. It all comes down, perhaps, to JRRT's faith once again. Mankind is fallen, but mankind is also redeemed and through man God brings Creation to fruition. Everyone has gifts from their Creator which they can use to bring this about. But when they seek more than that -- to become more than what they are or to accomplish more than they are fit to accomplish -- then the trouble starts, because they're trying to run counter to the divine plan. "Sauron" turns it to evil and the woes begin to multiply. (Of course, then you have to factor in The Ineffable Plan -- see "Good Omens," by Pratchett and Gaiman, for some practical applications of that - G - but this is getting beyond the immediate subject here.) Was all this rooted in Tolkien's times? Sure it was, as surely as those times were themselves rooted in the teachings of all the churches and temples and synagogues that still stood when JRRT was around and still stand today. But since roughly the middle of the previous century, the Industrial Age had been happening; living standards had been improving and Progress had come to town. Many regarded it with wonder (reference Chesterton and his description of children playing with toy steam shovels, for instance). It could be argued, and probably was, that this was all in accord with God's will, that we were using our innate gifts properly. But no one could be absolutely sure of that, especially with those things that were of an art deeper than most people possessed themselves. Those were the cases where dichotomies began occurring, or when what Chesterton called "mechanical men" started appearing, in contrast to the natural flow of humans using things in the way they were best fit to use them (i.e., according to their innate gifts and God's plan and all that). Technology was mastering men, or separating men. It was becoming problematical and people were forgetting what Stephen Crane called "the great simplicity," which was not a pleasant one and so was easily forgettable, albeit eternal. It's hard for us to imagine how people saw Progress then and the "advent of a new age" and all the rest of it, and so it's extremely hard to say how much of JRRT's view was representative of his times. Just one example: we are all accustomed to living in houses wired with electricity: for contrast, watch Buster Keaton's 1922 "The Electric House" to see how unusual home wiring was then, just 16 or 17 years before JRRT delivered his "On Fairy-stories" speech, and what a comedian could do with this newfangled thing. Can people of our own age say anything reasonable of how people in that age viewed technology or are we blinded by the light, so to speak, of our own times? Barb ###### From: " Shanahan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's "anti-technology" reflects his times? Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 22:30:27 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 69 Message-ID: References: <40C1B469.3B856B07@acm.org> <41043D3E.86612A69@acm.org> <9lvqg01jevp4h9nko8277gs1vvrtnqd2sf@4ax.com> <413C4A1B.DF894F98@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-649.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!195.185.185.44.MISMATCH!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:161118 Belba Grubb from Stock creatively typed: > On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 07:29:32 -0400, Glenn Holliday > wrote: >> Belba Grubb from Stock wrote: >> ... >>> My point is that JRRT recognized that dichotomies are >>> artificial and a symptom of the mechanical mind, separate from >>> the actual realities of the world. >> >> I wonder if there is another thing going on, more subtle than I >> had first suggested. >> >> As you and others said, calling Tolkien "anti-technology" is >> too simplistic. There is lots of evidence of him accepting >> and using examples of technology. Don't forget that Tolkien equated 'magic' and 'technology'. The crucial point is the use to which they are put. When a person desires a shortcut to power, that is the evil; it does not matter whether that shortcut is taken by magical or by mechanical means. Letters: Both of these (alone or together) will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective, - and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of development of the inherent inner powers or talents - or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills. The Machine is our more obvious modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognised. >> So I now think Tolkien implicitly presents a proposition >> that "technology can be OK, but carries a danger of >> overwhelming people and their environment." > > Perhaps you're right. Agreed. But the real danger is the danger to the will, that the desire for instant power or gratification will lead to evil, and to the desire to control the will of others, in order to achieve the desired ends more quickly or "efficiently" (a word we have often heard in paeans to Progress). > He was explicit in "The Lord of the Rings": > But there is nothing that Sauron cannot turn to evil > uses...Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper > than we possess ourselves. This is part of the same temptation, I think. Once the art we use surpasses our own understanding (how many of us could build a computer from scratch?), we lose our free will in controlling it. > I can't comment very much on this in detail because I haven't > read his biography, let alone the Letters, etc. But I can see > this evidence of "an art deeper than we possess ourselves" in > Ted Sandyman's getting Men to "build a bigger [mill] and fill it > full o' wheels and outlandish contraptions," where Ted now > labors for the Men where his father was once his own master. Yes. We then become slaves to the technology, or magic, and our free will is lost. Ciaran S. -- If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal. - e.goldman