Lines: 95 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: robertcarter01@aol.com (RobertCarter01) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 03 Jun 2004 09:37:17 GMT Organization: AOL, http://www.aol.co.uk Subject: A mythology for England Message-ID: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!c03.atl99!news.usenetserver.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153714 This aspect of Tolkien interests me greatly. England has no one mythology (for which perhaps read "obsolete ancient religion") as such, largely because it is overwhelmingly a land of immigrants. Lots of different "peoples" have fetched up on these shores over the past few thousand years, and the Germanic tribes who arrived here after Roman rule collapsed were no different in that they brought with them their own set of beliefs. Britain (as opposed to England) on the other hand, has an ancient mythology which pre-dates the Angles and Saxons et al., indeed it pre-dates the Romans, and some of its remnants may be accessed, in mangled form at least, by reading Geoffrey of Monmouth, which is part transmitted tale and part invention. Much of it is Celtic (to use an unsatisfactory but nevertheless convenient term) in origin, but much of it might be (must be?) from resident peoples among whom the migrating Celts integrated. We are accustomed these days to thinking of the Celts as Irish, Welsh, Scots, &c, people pushed out to marginal mountainous lands on the "fringe", but for a rather longer time than the Romans held sway here the Celts were living in the whole island. In my own fiction I've drawn on this broader, older indigenous source, rather than the Anglo-saxon, but my feeling is that Tolkien, being primarily an Anglo-saxonist, might well have regarded the Geoffrey of Monmouth route as fatally contaminated so far as his purposes were concerned. I say this because, firstly, GoM was pretty well single-handedly the founder of the Arthur legend, and of course if there ever existed an historical Arthur he would have been "on the other side" i.e. the Saxons were Arthur's enemy, and whereas a civil war would be a good setting for an author who intends to make a point about the futility of war, if he intends, say, to make sense of his own, real-life part in a war by working out in fiction the concept of "the just war", then it is better to have an us-and-them kind of war in which "we" are the good, and "they" are the evil. Straying too near to Arthur might not have looked all that promising to Tolkien while he was wearing his novelist hat, if indeed his experiences during the Great War were still resounding inside his head. Secondly, the Arthurian connection was later to become bound up with Grail legends, which tampered with the ideas of, and were heartily disliked by, the orthodoxy of the Roman church. Tolkien was a fairly devout adherent, so that may have worried him. A third reason may arise in connection with the establishment of the extraordinary line of kings rattled off by Geoffrey of Monmouth, which is supposed to account for the first millennium BC of the island's history. Though much was undoubtedly invented by Geoffrey, he himself claimed, and the claims have been investigated to some degree and found to stand up quite well, that he was drawing upon much older, authentic sources. However, although the "Matter of Britain" is a mythic history concerning this island, it collides at root with the Classical world - when a chap named Brutus fled the Trojan wars and set up here after putting paid to the giants who had been supposedly running riot up and down the place. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't hink one sees Tolkien incorporating much material from classical sources. A fourth and final reason why Tolkien may have avoided the GoM route is connected with the Normans. GoM was supposedly Welsh, but he was, as it were, working for the Normans - his version of British myth assisted the Norman kings, who were looking to legitimize themselves as the Kings of the French had by promoting the body of legend known as the "Matter of France" (i.e. Roland, Charlemagne, &c.) to lend them prestige. Tolkien was never what you might call a francophile, and I suspect his attitude to the Normans was possibly influenced by the fact that they drew a firm line under the Anglo-saxon overlordship of the island in 1066. My own feeling is that no single author can simply create "a mythology" as such by drawing on his own imagination and what little remains from the distant past (though GoM had a pretty good stab at it!). I say this largely because a mythology would have to have been believed in religiously (i.e. as a version of the truth) at some time in the past. What modern writers can do, however, is to create a dramatic story which has legend-like qualities, which in its atmosphere and moral orientation demonstrates, or echoes, a belief system which is rooted in a given landscape, which grows in a sort of organic way from a stock of established legend and myth. Tolkien certainly inhabits this realm of endeavour, though which of his works best exemplifies the process is a moot point. Robert Carter P.S. Those interested in seeing one recent elaboration of Geoffrey of Monmouth in modern fictional terms might like to peruse the history sections of my website at www.languageofstones.com, where amongst other things I touch on several of the issues discussed above. ###### From: Damian John Paul Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 16:37:44 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> Reply-To: damian@phpexpert.org NNTP-Posting-Host: host217-43-33-16.range217-43.btcentralplus.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: hercules.btinternet.com 1086280664 19042 217.43.33.16 (3 Jun 2004 16:37:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 16:37:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!news-peer1!btnet-feed3!newreader.ukcore.bt.net!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153750 On 03 Jun 2004 09:37:17 GMT, robertcarter01@aol.com (RobertCarter01) wrote: >Tolkien certainly inhabits this realm of >endeavour, though which of his works best exemplifies the process is a moot >point. > >Robert Carter I would say that what was in Tolkien's mind when he wrote LOTR was the future and not the past or History - I am just reading LOTR for the first time and I have not seen the films, but there is a lot of religion and politics in his writings, although they may not be seen by all who read the books...Tolkien was a lover of Nature, and the LOTR book seems like his protest about the Industrial Revolution that transformed England...from a Green country to one of smog and smoke... This is relatively modern history, and as one critic puts it "The English-speaking world is divided into those who have read The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit and those who are going to read them" meaning, if we all read LOTR and understand and interpret Tolkien's message, then the world could turn out a better place... therefore I would say it is an Ideaology for England... I must read on and then watch the movies, so I can talk more truthfully about the story and underlying message... Share Tips from Shabbydabbydoo Shares All Markets covered - www.phpexpert.org/sharetips/ ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> Subject: Re: A mythology for England Lines: 15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:53:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1086288802 82.43.162.58 (Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:53:22 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:53:22 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153768 Damian John Paul Brown wrote: > I must read on and then watch the movies, so I can talk more > truthfully about the story and underlying message... You only need to read the books if you want to "talk more truthfully about the story and underlying message". Films won't help there. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England Date: 3 Jun 2004 12:57:53 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.93.82.162 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1086292673 16355 127.0.0.1 (3 Jun 2004 19:57:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 19:57:53 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!dedekind.zen.co.uk!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153795 robertcarter01@aol.com (RobertCarter01) wrote in message news:<20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com>... >... In my own fiction I've drawn on > this broader, older indigenous source, rather than the Anglo-saxon, but my > feeling is that Tolkien, being primarily an Anglo-saxonist, might well have > regarded the Geoffrey of Monmouth route as fatally contaminated so far as his > purposes were concerned. Tolkien was a Professor of Old English, not an Anglo-Saxonist. His fiction draws on many sources, including THE BIBLE, THE KALEVALA, Norse sagas, Celtic folklore and mythology, Egyptian and Mesopotamian history and mythology, Greek mythology, Gothic and Roman history, and even some supposed American influenced IN ADDITION TO the Anglo-Saxon literature he loved and embraced so strongly. And if anyone can be fairly accused of following in the footsteps of Geoffrey of Monmouth, I would have to say J.R.R. Tolkien qualifies. His mythology for England, THE BOOK OF LOST TALES, presupposes all sorts of things leading up to real history. He attempted to do exactly what Geoffrey did. But somewhere along the way, Tolkien gave up and moved on to a more original concept. ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England Date: 3 Jun 2004 20:00:42 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de TXg9bkEZn1+grh4I98SNGwQGYfMVNdtnE93X/2jjEmDO7EidLC User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153797 On 3 Jun 2004 12:57:53 -0700, Michael Martinez wrote: > > And if anyone can be fairly accused of following in the footsteps of > Geoffrey of Monmouth, I would have to say J.R.R. Tolkien qualifies. > His mythology for England, THE BOOK OF LOST TALES, presupposes all > sorts of things leading up to real history. He attempted to do > exactly what Geoffrey did. But somewhere along the way, Tolkien gave > up and moved on to a more original concept. Why do you keep asserting that which is so clearly not true? -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: A mythology for England Lines: 17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 21:34:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1086298448 82.43.162.58 (Thu, 03 Jun 2004 22:34:08 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 22:34:08 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsrout1.ntli.net!news-in.ntli.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153822 Michael Martinez wrote: > He attempted to do exactly what Geoffrey did. But somewhere > along the way, Tolkien gave up and moved on to a more original > concept. In what way was the Red Book of Westmarch (I suppose that is what you mean) a more _original_ concept? And in what way does it not "presuppose all sorts of things leading up to real history", as you say Geoffrey of Monmouth did with the Arthurian tales? Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 22:46:24 -0500 Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 23:47:37 -0400 From: Flame of the West User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Macintosh/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.48.109.158 X-Trace: sv3-0MWW7E9qAyI2t3psFwlgxxqiCmhjtSZRas7UU7nyF/XNsC2t+XBmU7WnzjKsBPAZzI6e7i8BFtrUh6k!5d5dLjnpi/x/7btTHVEtngkG2Z7+0fxTXJbB06+nHc1D9WAo2fvzvJEcQ6TeQw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153889 Damian John Paul Brown wrote: > This is relatively modern history, and as one critic puts it "The > English-speaking world is divided into those who have read The Lord of > the Rings and The Hobbit and those who are going to read them" IIRC that critic was none other than CS Lewis. -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: A mythology for England Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 04:47:19 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 79 Message-ID: <40bfea48.8461667@news.saix.net> References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> Reply-To: hayesmstw@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: tpr-ip-nas-1-p16.telkom-ipnet.co.za X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 1086324514 15412 155.239.184.16 (4 Jun 2004 04:48:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jun 2004 04:48:34 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!news-peer1!news-peer0-test!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153896 On 03 Jun 2004 09:37:17 GMT, robertcarter01@aol.com (RobertCarter01) wrote: >I say this because, firstly, GoM was pretty well single-handedly the founder of >the Arthur legend, and of course if there ever existed an historical Arthur he >would have been "on the other side" i.e. the Saxons were Arthur's enemy, and >whereas a civil war would be a good setting for an author who intends to make a >point about the futility of war, if he intends, say, to make sense of his own, >real-life part in a war by working out in fiction the concept of "the just >war", then it is better to have an us-and-them kind of war in which "we" are >the good, and "they" are the evil. Straying too near to Arthur might not have >looked all that promising to Tolkien while he was wearing his novelist hat, if >indeed his experiences during the Great War were still resounding inside his >head. > >Secondly, the Arthurian connection was later to become bound up with Grail >legends, which tampered with the ideas of, and were heartily disliked by, the >orthodoxy of the Roman church. Tolkien was a fairly devout adherent, so that >may have worried him. A third reason may arise in connection with the >establishment of the extraordinary line of kings rattled off by Geoffrey of >Monmouth, which is supposed to account for the first millennium BC of the >island's history. Though much was undoubtedly invented by Geoffrey, he himself >claimed, and the claims have been investigated to some degree and found to >stand up quite well, that he was drawing upon much older, authentic sources. >However, although the "Matter of Britain" is a mythic history concerning this >island, it collides at root with the Classical world - when a chap named Brutus >fled the Trojan wars and set up here after putting paid to the giants who had >been supposedly running riot up and down the place. Please correct me if I'm >wrong, but I don't hink one sees Tolkien incorporating much material from >classical sources. Concerning this, here is something I wrote in another forum a few years ago, and it may be relevant to this point: -- older text begins --- I'm not a fundi on the subject of Grail literature -- I was just mentioning it as an example of the rapid development of Western eucharistic theology in the period following the 1054 schism, which makes it problematic to assume that the Orthodox and Western traditions are closer than they really are. I personally think that soteriology, as a result of the writings of Anselm of Canterbury, was even more divergent, and so a bigger problem today. Nevertheless Western Eucharistic theology did undergo significant development in that time, and the popularity of the Grail legend mirrors that concern. I've been reading Charles Williams's description of that development, and I'd be interested in discussing it further, but it would probably stray off topic for the alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox group. Perhaps we could discuss it more in the coinherence mailing list on the works of Charles Williams - more information about it is available on: http://www.coinherence.faithweb.com/ Williams does not trace any preceding oral tradition of the Grail legend before the written version -- I do not see how it would be possible to do so, but he does trace the the development in the written sources. I have a couple of other observations, these are tentative hypotheses; you may have evidence that shows them to be false: (1) The Arthurian saga was written after the Norman conquest of England. I suggest that it was written in part to legitimse that conquest by showing that the Anglo-Saxons had themselves conquered Britain from the Romano-British in order to create England, and that they were therefore no more legitimate than the Normans who in turn conquered them. (2) The Norman Conquest took place 12 years after the schism. From an Orthodox point of view, the Anglo-Saxon and Celtic Churches were Orthodox. The Norman Conquest was in a sense therefore the conquest of Orthodoxy. It was the Norman Archbishops of Canterbury, like Lanfranc and Anselm, whose theological innovations widened the rift between East and West. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### Message-ID: <40C001F6.49CD4FC3@sbcglobal.net> Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 00:00:39 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 X-Trace: DXC=g8RT6B]d]Z;cGKCSLObU\20R]m=BkYWI7:6bU3OT9S9:XA8fU;X206>7Q8JC=3bkm3SD]^OJWK>o7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153897 Michael Martinez wrote: > Tolkien was a Professor of Old English, not an Anglo-Saxonist. His > fiction draws on many sources, including THE BIBLE, THE KALEVALA, > Norse sagas, Celtic folklore and mythology, Egyptian and Mesopotamian > history and mythology, Greek mythology, Gothic and Roman history, and > even some supposed American influenced IN ADDITION TO the Anglo-Saxon > literature he loved and embraced so strongly. > So Michael, not that I expect you to have either the Christian charity or the courage to respond to me, what do you see as the difference between an Anglo-Saxonists and a "professor of Old English"? And where do you see the Norse sagas, the Bible, Celtic Folklore and Mythology (and you forgot language) Gothic, and Roman history NOT fitting into being a "professor of Old English" or an Anglo-Saxonist? ljs ###### Message-ID: <40C004B3.A9785EED@sbcglobal.net> Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 00:12:19 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.books.inklings Subject: Re: A mythology for England References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <40bfea48.8461667@news.saix.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 50 X-Trace: DXC=_F6S;[mIIiFD7I\oL:B:IG0R]m=BkYWIG:6bU3OT9S9JY:4h?Bo8GOI7Q8JC=3bkmC[b3MZQIdTTO X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!neupina.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!nntp.abs.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153898 Steve Hayes wrote: > I have a couple of other observations, these are tentative hypotheses; you may > have evidence that shows them to be false: > > (1) The Arthurian saga was written after the Norman conquest of England. I > suggest that it was written in part to legitimse that conquest by showing that > the Anglo-Saxons had themselves conquered Britain from the Romano-British in > order to create England, and that they were therefore no more legitimate than > the Normans who in turn conquered them. > No, I don't think so. a) there were Anglo-Saxons who wanted William, not Harold b) the Anglo-Saxons were well aware that they had been invaders--read the first chapters of Bede c) legitimacy wasn't the question--remember that not too long before the conquest they had been ruled by Cnute and there wasn't a lot of problem with his reign (well, there was some, but some cooperated fully. d) William did have a claim to the throne....and it is that legitimacy that is in quiestion, not the legitimacy of the invasion itself and e) the Normans also very quickly adopted Anglo-Saxon saints and holy sites and regnal traditions to show continuity with the Anglo-Saxon past, not to obliterate it. SO I don't think this a path to go down so to speak. > > (2) The Norman Conquest took place 12 years after the schism. From an Orthodox > point of view, the Anglo-Saxon and Celtic Churches were Orthodox. The Norman > Conquest was in a sense therefore the conquest of Orthodoxy. > Not really....William appointed his own bishops and only later did he subscribe to the Roman position--and his son still had to assure the pope that they'd tow the line. The Anglo-Saxon church was quite orthodox and had earlier in the century gone through a major reform, the Benedictine Reform, that was in large part influenced by Abbo of Fleury--Fleury is a monastery in Normandy. ljs > > It was the Norman Archbishops of Canterbury, like Lanfranc and Anselm, whose > theological innovations widened the rift between East and West. > > -- > Steve Hayes > E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com > Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/books.htm ###### From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England Date: 3 Jun 2004 23:51:15 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3b26e128.0406032251.400809a4@posting.google.com> References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.92.38.99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1086331875 31235 127.0.0.1 (4 Jun 2004 06:51:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 06:51:15 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153910 AC wrote in message news:... > On 3 Jun 2004 12:57:53 -0700, > Michael Martinez wrote: > > > > And if anyone can be fairly accused of following in the footsteps of > > Geoffrey of Monmouth, I would have to say J.R.R. Tolkien qualifies. > > His mythology for England, THE BOOK OF LOST TALES, presupposes all > > sorts of things leading up to real history. He attempted to do > > exactly what Geoffrey did. But somewhere along the way, Tolkien gave > > up and moved on to a more original concept. > > Why do you keep asserting that which is so clearly not true? I don't. Why do you insist on misrepresenting the facts? ###### From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England Date: 3 Jun 2004 23:57:15 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 41 Message-ID: <3b26e128.0406032257.547e4406@posting.google.com> References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.92.38.99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1086332236 31676 127.0.0.1 (4 Jun 2004 06:57:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 06:57:16 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!209.11.36.156.MISMATCH!nntp-server.pubsub.com!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153912 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:... > Michael Martinez wrote: > > He attempted to do exactly what Geoffrey did. But somewhere > > along the way, Tolkien gave up and moved on to a more original > > concept. > > In what way was the Red Book of Westmarch (I suppose that is what you > mean) a more _original_ concept? The more original concept is the Middle-earth mythology (represented by the Second Edition of THE HOBBIT and the first edition of THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and all subsequent editions) as opposed to the mythology for England (represented by THE BOOK OF LOST TALES). > ...And in what way does it not "presuppose all sorts of things leading up to > real history", as you say Geoffrey of Monmouth did with the Arthurian tales? In Tolkien's mythology for England (THE BOOK OF LOST TALES), he stipulates that events occurred IN ENGLAND and he provides a fairly detailed pseudo-history for the Anglo-Saxons which is completely contrived. Geoffrey's history, extending back to Brutus, draws upon older mythologies, but he was retaining an essentially Roman connection to Arthur's Britain anyway. It was, nonetheless, a very contrived history. Tolkien loved contrived histories (he apparently was very strongly influenced by "Kyng Alisaunder", a Middle English poem which imaginatively retells the story of Alexander the Great). But he abandoned the concept of contriving a history for England in favor of simply contriving an imaginary history for a previously unmention corner the world. Was it a completely original idea? Of course not. Tolkien was familiar with older works such as GULLIVER'S TRAVELS, SWISS FAMILY ROBINSON, et. al. He was following in the footsteps of a long literary tradition in that respect. But he dispensed with the "mythology for England" to create the "Silmarillion mythology". That is a significant step away from what Chaucer achieved. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 00:16:09 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <7c80c0lg692j6ep4alfajbif1di4n6e4g3@4ax.com> References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!skynet.be!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-feed.riddles.org.uk!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153924 On 3 Jun 2004 12:57:53 -0700, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > >Tolkien was a Professor of Old English, not an Anglo-Saxonist. Uh, Michael... ......they are 95% of the same thing! the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Mr Bullfrog says, "Time's fun, when you're having flies!" ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 00:16:37 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <2e80c0pedqn5m5mhtaq0oiqipodnlejq5k@4ax.com> References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!209.11.36.156.MISMATCH!nntp-server.pubsub.com!news.glorb.com!news.airnews.net!cabal12.airnews.net!cabal11.airnews.net!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153925 On 3 Jun 2004 20:00:42 GMT, AC wrote: >On 3 Jun 2004 12:57:53 -0700, >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> And if anyone can be fairly accused of following in the footsteps of >> Geoffrey of Monmouth, I would have to say J.R.R. Tolkien qualifies. >> His mythology for England, THE BOOK OF LOST TALES, presupposes all >> sorts of things leading up to real history. He attempted to do >> exactly what Geoffrey did. But somewhere along the way, Tolkien gave >> up and moved on to a more original concept. > >Why do you keep asserting that which is so clearly not true? Because that is his interpretation. the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- I don't have a solution, but I admire the problem ###### Lines: 25 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: robertcarter01@aol.com (RobertCarter01) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 04 Jun 2004 13:14:45 GMT References: <40C004B3.A9785EED@sbcglobal.net> Organization: AOL, http://www.aol.co.uk Subject: Re: A mythology for England Message-ID: <20040604091445.11516.00000515@mb-m04.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeds.sol.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153944 One point I'd like to pick up is about "originality". Let's not assume that it's necessarily an unalloyed "good thing" and that you can't have too much of a good thing. Originality is actually a dangerous quantity, and as with spice in cooking, one to be used rather sparingly if the dish is not to be ruined. No creative artist remains unaware of its lower limit for long, and an understanding of the upper limit comes only after some years experience exercising above the lower limit! What, I hear you cry, happens when the creative artist (or let's say the writer) breaches the upper limit? Well, it is variously marked, but manifests itself most readily in the reactions of a readership. First comes disappointment, then mystification. Finally, if they have persevered that long, the search for another book to read! Robert Carter ###### Message-ID: <40C077D5.BE20462E@sbcglobal.net> Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 08:23:33 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> <7c80c0lg692j6ep4alfajbif1di4n6e4g3@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 X-Trace: DXC=aoPlb]V6Y9S6:50a On 3 Jun 2004 12:57:53 -0700, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) > wrote: > > > >Tolkien was a Professor of Old English, not an Anglo-Saxonist. > > Uh, Michael... > > ......they are 95% of the same thing! > > the softrat > "Honi soit qui mal y pense." > mailto:softrat@pobox.com > -- > Mr Bullfrog says, "Time's fun, when you're having flies!" ###### Message-ID: <40C47AA4.9B3B3AE9@sbcglobal.net> Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 09:24:36 -0500 From: Larry Swain X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT DSL (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> <7c80c0lg692j6ep4alfajbif1di4n6e4g3@4ax.com> <3b26e128.0406041452.a00203e@posting.google.com> <40C16557.4557B845@sbcglobal.net> <3b26e128.0406060707.18b76bd4@posting.google.com> <40C35965.BCCD180E@sbcglobal.net> <3b26e128.0406062113.656baeee@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 56 X-Trace: DXC=[`Y60\CmDSOXRnZBHDoMYH0R]m=BkYWIG:6bU3OT9S9JOeFD7U_V7CJU^ZFkQVL Larry Swain wrote in message news:<40C35965.BCCD180E@sbcglobal.net>... > > Michael Martinez wrote: > > > > > So, you were raised by a Roman Catholic priest and studied all those > > > languages, too, did you? Well, I'm impressed. > > > > I'd say I have a pretty strong Catholic connection and again, essentially > > (not precisely) the same as Tolkien's. > > Not precisely? > > Then all your swaggering is for nought. And there's your problem Michael. You don't even recognize an honest attempt at peacemaking when it comes up and hits you on the head. Once again you choose the adversarial relationship come hell or high water. AH well, its no skin at all off my nose. As for my statements of fact regarding my own career and how closely it matches Tolkien's, if it is for all naught since it doesn't absolutely mirror Tolkien's, doesn't this mean we should disregard everything you say since your background is something less than an exact match to Tolkien's too? And since you're not even a philologist, unlike myself, shouldn't you NOT be making statements about it, or about the field of Anglo-Saxon studies and Tolkien's involvement since you are neither an Old English expert nor have an education to match Tolkien's? Seems to me that yes you should keep quiet and apologize across the Net for continually repeating your errors. But of course, that will never happen. > > > Now, run along and play with yourself. I'm not going to walk into > your trap THAT easily. Ah, I'm cut to the quick!! Such a juvenile comment, Michael. I'd expect a much better insult coming from a man with your experience in flame wars. As for a trap, it wasn't. It was a honest attempt to discuss things on which we disagree in an open and adult manner if you could mangage it. Apparently you can not. The only trap here is the one in your own mind, and you are already trapped there; there is nothing I need do or even could. Your choice. So, back to Tolkien......you've stated in the past that Tolkien is not an Anglo-Saxonist and not a medievalist. Is not your statements earlier in this thread a change in your position wherein you allow that Tolkien would, albeit grudingly, admit to being a medievalist and Anglo-Saxonist? And where do you see, what are your sources, that his philological interests and training is NOT something that all Anglo-Saxonists and Old English specialists receive, that many such specialists continue to work in philology of Germanic languages, and that being an Anglo-Saxonist is somehow NOT being a philologist? And I've asked before and will ask again about your claim that people are overlooking or forgetting Tolkien's interests in Old Norse and Welsh and other matters. I'll keep asking. I expect you will not answer, because I think deep down you know I'm right and are unable to admit it or to provide a basis for your comments. Best Regards Michael, ljs ###### From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England Date: 7 Jun 2004 12:40:37 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3b26e128.0406071140.d5549c2@posting.google.com> References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406032257.547e4406@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406052240.1a49e961@posting.google.com> <1178b6d1.0406060503.455cdeea@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.90.40.125 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1086637237 9570 127.0.0.1 (7 Jun 2004 19:40:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 19:40:37 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154582 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:... > Would you say that a draft letter (which is what Letter 180 is) is less > reliable than a letter that was actually sent? Maybe Humphrey Carpenter > and Christopher Tolkien (who put the Letters book together) say > something about the status of draft letters and why they chose to > include them? None of the letters are authoritative, in that they are a man's private correspondence to friends, relatives, and strangers. They reflect his moods, his circumstances, and his good and bad memory days. Sometimes the drafts appear in the book because that was all that could be found but its content was deemed useful. Take the letter Tolkien composed for Allen & Unwin regarding the request from a German publisher for rights to translate THE HOBBIT. They wanted to know if he had Jewish blood. What we get is the reply which was NOT sent. No copies of the reply that WAS sent have been found. So, we don't actually know what Tolkien told them. He could have been very brief and terse, saying something like, "I fear the rights for this book are not currently available." ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 21:44:57 -0500 Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 22:46:11 -0400 From: Flame of the West User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Macintosh/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406032257.547e4406@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406052240.1a49e961@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406062118.46a58abc@posting.google.com> In-Reply-To: <3b26e128.0406062118.46a58abc@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Lines: 46 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.48.109.158 X-Trace: sv3-gQ5+UsLqF0dJCLUvdr0LvpVCJQOfzLEC0hCbf2QGKabI/2KAvaAE1DhI8ELfVxReyRc59JFl71KtiOd!p156OEqvEAHgNeZ9xX+G7jYUwnHAuJ5wuVJkHtl34IKHLJHuSlvArE6o7SzVpg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.moat.net!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154640 Michael Martinez wrote: > It is obvious that you have gotten all your opinions by reading > Conrad's impaired citations. AHA!! THERE it is! That's the thing you said before that made me think of the phrase "Conrad puppet." Perhaps I should have said "Conrad disciples" instead? > It's also obvious that, since you've > been practicing the anti-MM religion for several years, you're as > unlikely to accept the truth from me as to come to my next Christmas > party. Actually, most of us respect your level of knowledge of the texts. But we aren't stupid and can recognize a logical gap when we see it (such as the unproved assumption that the Tolkiens equated BoLT and the mythology-for-England). > But if you sit down with the books, read them from cover to cover (as > I have), and then go back and look for these specific points, you'll > stand a good chance for forgetting all the bullshit you've absorbed > and seeing the texts as they really are for the first time in your > life. > You still might not agree with me, but at least you would be arriving > at your opinion on your own. > I suspect you would find that to be both a maturing and a liberating > exercise. I am in the process of reading the books cover-to-cover. (I assume you mean here things like HoME rather than LotR.) But I work hard for a living and it is a project that will take years. I participate in and observe the on-topic discussions here precisely because I enjoy learning from those who know more than I do. But I am capable of judging whether a citation is relevant or not, and all the citations in the world from Christopher Tolkien that stress that BoLT and Silm. are separate works won't convince me either way on whether Silm. is part of the mythology for England. -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 21:51:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 22:52:18 -0400 From: Flame of the West User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Macintosh/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406032257.547e4406@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406052240.1a49e961@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406062120.6fdbf17@posting.google.com> In-Reply-To: <3b26e128.0406062120.6fdbf17@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.48.109.158 X-Trace: sv3-y9W5sL4yV4ia7nDUfVO4ljLu/GldAF1kI5ssCkjqvnS4p+96Dbr5gtI36HpVZ0/7nUeHqpP4Iegj0ua!0pUBPyEM3C+v8koUWyljwpy9mHW8jecxEFARFw9NZjMIMH69A/T0XpYRPy/bGA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!209.11.36.156.MISMATCH!nntp-server.pubsub.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154642 Michael Martinez wrote: >>>No, all that is clear from Letter 180 is that Tolkien had sense enough >>>to realize that it was better to conflate the facts for convenience, >>>rather than risk a long, drawn-out correspondence which would have >>>achieved nothing. >> >>What cite from the letter can you provide where he states that he is >>conflating the facts? > What cite from the letter can you provide where he states he is NOT > conflating the facts? > Better yet, why don't you just post all the facts here in about as > much text as Tolkien used to write that letter. That would prove > beyond all possible argument that he wasn't conflating the facts. > Wouldn't it? > And if there are really so few facts, well, then, even YOU should be > able to find them. > I look forward to either of your two reasonable citations. Waitaminnit! You are asserting that Tolkien conflated the facts (nice word BTW). It's not fair to make an assertion and then say it's up to someone else to disprove you with citations. Under those rules, it would be very hard for you for disprove my contention that Galadriel liked to paint her toenails green. -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 21:12:03 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406032257.547e4406@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406052240.1a49e961@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406062120.6fdbf17@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154648 On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 22:52:18 -0400, Flame of the West wrote: > >Waitaminnit! You are asserting that Tolkien conflated the facts >(nice word BTW). It's not fair to make an assertion and then >say it's up to someone else to disprove you with citations. >Under those rules, it would be very hard for you for disprove >my contention that Galadriel liked to paint her toenails green. > Goddammit, Jerome! You're asking for a logical response from MM! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Smith & Wesson - The original point and click interface... ###### From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England Date: 8 Jun 2004 05:47:18 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3b26e128.0406080447.58f5d01e@posting.google.com> References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406032257.547e4406@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406052240.1a49e961@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406062120.6fdbf17@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.150.188.142 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1086698838 18895 127.0.0.1 (8 Jun 2004 12:47:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 12:47:18 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!neupina.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154664 Flame of the West wrote in message news:... > Michael Martinez wrote: > > And if there are really so few facts, well, then, even YOU should be > > able to find them. > > > > I look forward to either of your two reasonable citations. > > Waitaminnit! You are asserting that Tolkien conflated the facts > (nice word BTW). It's not fair to make an assertion and then > say it's up to someone else to disprove you with citations. Well, then it's not fair for you to assert that he DIDN'T conflate the facts and leave it up to me to prove he did with a citation where he specifically states he did. It's not like he anticipated (or would have cared for) all the ill-logical nonsense you write in your messages. > Under those rules, it would be very hard for you for disprove > my contention that Galadriel liked to paint her toenails green. Absence of denial proves nothing. Never has, never will. You need to post some citations supporting your contentions: If THE LORD OF THE RINGS is really the "mythology for England", then you should be able to find a citation where J.R.R. Tolkien says exactly that: "The Lord of the Rings is my mythology for England". Good luck. You ain't going to find one. ###### From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England Date: 8 Jun 2004 05:50:50 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 44 Message-ID: <3b26e128.0406080450.6a0a4ebd@posting.google.com> References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406032257.547e4406@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406052240.1a49e961@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406062118.46a58abc@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.150.188.142 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1086699051 19042 127.0.0.1 (8 Jun 2004 12:50:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 12:50:51 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154665 Flame of the West wrote in message news:... > Michael Martinez wrote: > > > It is obvious that you have gotten all your opinions by reading > > Conrad's impaired citations. > > AHA!! THERE it is! That's the thing you said before that made > me think of the phrase "Conrad puppet." Perhaps I should have > said "Conrad disciples" instead? I've already called you sycophants because of the way you support his lies and flames. That would apply here as well. > > It's also obvious that, since you've > > been practicing the anti-MM religion for several years, you're as > > unlikely to accept the truth from me as to come to my next Christmas > > party. > > Actually, most of us respect your level of knowledge of the texts. > But we aren't stupid That has yet to be seen. You say some pretty stupid things. And don't even try to persuade me you have any concept of how to logically analyze anything. You've never made the effort, insofar as I've never seen you do so. > > I suspect you would find that to be both a maturing and a liberating > > exercise. > > I am in the process of reading the books cover-to-cover. (I assume > you mean here things like HoME rather than LotR.) I meant ALL of the books. > But I work hard for a living and it is a project that will take years. Pity, that. > I participate in and observe the on-topic discussions here precisely > because I enjoy learning from those who know more than I do. Then why the Hell do you pay attention to anything Conrad writes? See? You make absolutely no sense whatsoever. And then you babble on about "logical gaps". ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England Date: 8 Jun 2004 17:03:55 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406032257.547e4406@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406052240.1a49e961@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406062118.46a58abc@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406080450.6a0a4ebd@posting.google.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de lezhDSOsItqtE+trPLXqUQosQqP/w5t+VvFMqeCnKgrP5M0oSp User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154691 On 8 Jun 2004 05:50:50 -0700, Michael Martinez wrote: > Flame of the West wrote in message news:... >> Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> > It is obvious that you have gotten all your opinions by reading >> > Conrad's impaired citations. >> >> AHA!! THERE it is! That's the thing you said before that made >> me think of the phrase "Conrad puppet." Perhaps I should have >> said "Conrad disciples" instead? > > I've already called you sycophants because of the way you support his > lies and flames. That would apply here as well. My apology to you is withdrawn. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 21:13:50 -0500 Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 22:15:05 -0400 From: Flame of the West User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Macintosh/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406032257.547e4406@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406052240.1a49e961@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406062118.46a58abc@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406080450.6a0a4ebd@posting.google.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.48.109.158 X-Trace: sv3-2ZRaGZ4xT4ZemNcUABdVao29541v7/n4n89Pz1lDGnhl6YrbmDhdFQ4eA5I1lofm1QmIEXcQx21XSLQ!/Q4TTmWgAuggCl2tvzjSnwKqCb7yTEmj3nKqm6X0FNk3Y1F1yxKMYD9dHN1Zzg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!ecngs!feeder2.ecngs.de!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154734 AC wrote: >>>>It is obvious that you have gotten all your opinions by reading >>>> Conrad's impaired citations. >>> >>>AHA!! THERE it is! That's the thing you said before that made >>>me think of the phrase "Conrad puppet." Perhaps I should have >>>said "Conrad disciples" instead? >> >>I've already called you sycophants because of the way you support his >>lies and flames. That would apply here as well. > My apology to you is withdrawn. > SYCOPHANTS! We aren't Conrad puppets, we're Conrad sycophants. Or, at Tolkien would have put it, sycophaunts. -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A mythology for England Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 20:27:13 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3b26e128.0406032257.547e4406@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406052240.1a49e961@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406062118.46a58abc@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406080450.6a0a4ebd@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!postnews2.google.com!news2.google.com!news1.google.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154736 On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 22:15:05 -0400, Flame of the West wrote: > >SYCOPHANTS! We aren't Conrad puppets, we're Conrad sycophants. >Or, at Tolkien would have put it, sycophaunts. > I'm not an oliphaunt neither! the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- If I don't blow my horn, who will? It's got my spit on it. ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20040603053717.29519.00000370@mb-m05.aol.com> <3b26e128.0406031157.390ee508@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406032257.547e4406@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406052240.1a49e961@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406062118.46a58abc@posting.google.com> <3b26e128.0406080450.6a0a4ebd@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: A mythology for England Lines: 18 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 06:53:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.27.158.161 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1086763997 172.27.158.161 (Wed, 09 Jun 2004 09:53:17 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 09:53:17 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-stoc.telia.net!news-stoa.telia.net!telia.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154751 in , Flame of the West enriched us with: > > SYCOPHANTS! We aren't Conrad puppets, we're Conrad sycophants. > Or, at Tolkien would have put it, sycophaunts. Aren't words fauntastic ;-) -- Troels Forchhammer "It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent whatsoever," he said. "Have you thought of going into teaching?" - (Terry Pratchett, Mort)