From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: For the record.... Date: 1 Jun 2004 11:24:01 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 47 Message-ID: <3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.93.82.162 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1086114241 22981 127.0.0.1 (1 Jun 2004 18:24:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 18:24:01 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153252 As I do research for various topics, I am finding more and more sites which are trawling the news groups for content and reposting discussions as if they were Web-based forum discussions. These are pretty sophisticated-looking gateways, and I suppose they are being used to gain search engine rankings rather than to build communities. Nonetheless, I often come across some of our more interesting (flame-free) discussions through those interfaces. I also come across the occasional current MM reference made in my absence. Why am I telling you all this? Because one of the current MM Myths is that I constantly lurk here or something like that. There is no need to lurk. Google and the other search engines keep feeding me constant updates on my status in the flame groups whether I want them or not. I just wanted to be able to refer back to this announcement the next time somsone wrongly accuses me of lurking or whatever. Anyway, seeing as I have been browsing these discussions so often of late, I was amused to see that Google had archived 14,000 posts by me in rec.arts.books.tolkien. More than anyone else. It's a shame so many of them had to be responses to flames. I suppose Ojevind's 11,000+ posts are mostly off-topic, but he did occasionally provide some useful, thought-provoking comments when he didn't want to be an ass. And I enjoyed Michael O'Neill's "History of Michael Martinez and Bilbo Baggins", which I arrived at through a laborious search for references to the history of Babylon. Even when Michael chooses to be an ass, he can be quite funny and his form has improved tremendously through the years. I have to say that his flames are more enjoyable than they were in years past, although his historical accuracy has not improved at all. I am curious if any active participants in these groups actually use those Web-based interfaces (and, no, I don't have any URLs handy -- they are legion and much easier to find than I want them to be). I have often browsed Neil Franklin's archive of Usenet posts. He does a pretty good job of capturing whole discussions. I think he does it by hand, though one would hope he uses a program. I've often found old citations I wanted to reuse at his site, and I am glad he kept it up. Haven't really noticed anything else here lately. I've been pretty busy. Did anyone ever ask for more information on Tolkien and the Book of Job (or whatever it was that brought me back here a few weeks ago)? ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:31:03 -0500 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: For the record.... Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:34:43 -0700 Message-ID: References: <3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 40 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-l8P7iUTaTeWcNbFKJ7o41gnko1UKTB16XzcIWAhyR+MzUpm+uKi3SxorWYr/7lemanRYcqIKqNV2NCm!z7snGSe0Ip+2bghF3puxaC35Qb8UnqWwVghThDctQQlbTN5T6jZsOIXyOx7JFQRYWuHmYZF2dJZu!ECTuRD4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153291 In article <3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b@posting.google.com>, Michael@xenite.org says... > > And I enjoyed Michael O'Neill's "History of Michael Martinez and Bilbo > Baggins", which I arrived at through a laborious search for references > to the history of Babylon. Even when Michael chooses to be an ass, he > can be quite funny and his form has improved tremendously through the > years. I have to say that his flames are more enjoyable than they > were in years past, although his historical accuracy has not improved > at all. LOL, which historical accuracy? That regarding what is more on topic for AFT/RABT or his other (more political) penchant? Or both? > > I am curious if any active participants in these groups actually use > those Web-based interfaces (and, no, I don't have any URLs handy -- > they are legion and much easier to find than I want them to be). > > I have often browsed Neil Franklin's archive of Usenet posts. He does > a pretty good job of capturing whole discussions. I think he does it > by hand, though one would hope he uses a program. I've often found > old citations I wanted to reuse at his site, and I am glad he kept it > up. > > Haven't really noticed anything else here lately. I've been pretty > busy. Did anyone ever ask for more information on Tolkien and the > Book of Job (or whatever it was that brought me back here a few weeks > ago)? > Not that I know, you summed it up pretty well. I was hoping Mr. Hammond would pop in with some commentary, but he has not been around in a while. -- Tar-Elenion He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 19:35:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 20:36:54 -0400 From: Flame of the West User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Macintosh/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: For the record.... References: <3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b@posting.google.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.48.109.158 X-Trace: sv3-SvVJ2YBaa3H0gWr59/tGisHzsZO9wiPVRMRo5DZemMRH3Xnmj/SdVPtXWJef1JgfwVCtyB5RvXZROyW!CprtpVYF/m75FmH8DDQRmk1Rge4foT/6P2WrmULNQr+fASwDNUMDRno13JBHrA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153398 Tar-Elenion wrote: > Not that I know, you summed it up pretty well. I was hoping > Mr. Hammond would pop in with some commentary, but he has not been > around in a while. I expect that Mr. Hammond has been busy with his (& her) Companion & Guide. It was #1 on my Christmas list last year; then it became my intended anniversary gift; now the release date is Oct. 21, so we're probably talking Christmas again. I expect it will be well worth the wait. -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. ###### From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: For the record.... Date: 1 Jun 2004 22:44:48 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3b26e128.0406012144.29bc59b8@posting.google.com> References: <3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.93.82.162 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1086155089 5101 127.0.0.1 (2 Jun 2004 05:44:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 05:44:49 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153484 Tar-Elenion wrote in message news:... > In article <3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b@posting.google.com>, > Michael@xenite.org says... > > > > > And I enjoyed Michael O'Neill's "History of Michael Martinez and Bilbo > > Baggins", which I arrived at through a laborious search for references > > to the history of Babylon. Even when Michael chooses to be an ass, he > > can be quite funny and his form has improved tremendously through the > > years. I have to say that his flames are more enjoyable than they > > were in years past, although his historical accuracy has not improved > > at all. > > LOL, which historical accuracy? That regarding what is more on topic for > AFT/RABT or his other (more political) penchant? Or both? I think I best just leave it at that. Let the text be ambiguous. > > Haven't really noticed anything else here lately. I've been pretty > > busy. Did anyone ever ask for more information on Tolkien and the > > Book of Job (or whatever it was that brought me back here a few weeks > > ago)? > > > Not that I know, you summed it up pretty well. I was hoping Mr. Hammond > would pop in with some commentary, but he has not been around in a > while. Thanks for the update. I suppose I could ask him. I may bring this up on a discussion list he occasionally visits. Perhaps he'll say something there. ###### From: androgynouspauly@yahoo.co.uk (Unattended Gorbag) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: For the record.... Date: 2 Jun 2004 06:14:52 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 52 Message-ID: <8fae4ad6.0406020514.6ff0bb5a@posting.google.com> References: <3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.190.93.137 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1086182095 7217 127.0.0.1 (2 Jun 2004 13:14:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:14:55 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news.ks.uiuc.edu!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153523 Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote in message news:<3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b@posting.google.com>... > As I do research for various topics, I am finding more and more sites > which are trawling the news groups for content and reposting > discussions as if they were Web-based forum discussions. These are > pretty sophisticated-looking gateways, and I suppose they are being > used to gain search engine rankings rather than to build communities. > > Nonetheless, I often come across some of our more interesting > (flame-free) discussions through those interfaces. I also come across > the occasional current MM reference made in my absence. > > Why am I telling you all this? Because one of the current MM Myths is > that I constantly lurk here or something like that. There is no need > to lurk. Google and the other search engines keep feeding me constant > updates on my status in the flame groups whether I want them or not. > I just wanted to be able to refer back to this announcement the next > time somsone wrongly accuses me of lurking or whatever. > > Anyway, seeing as I have been browsing these discussions so often of > late, I was amused to see that Google had archived 14,000 posts by me > in rec.arts.books.tolkien. More than anyone else. It's a shame so > many of them had to be responses to flames. I suppose Ojevind's > 11,000+ posts are mostly off-topic, but he did occasionally provide > some useful, thought-provoking comments when he didn't want to be an > ass. > > And I enjoyed Michael O'Neill's "History of Michael Martinez and Bilbo > Baggins", which I arrived at through a laborious search for references > to the history of Babylon. Even when Michael chooses to be an ass, he > can be quite funny and his form has improved tremendously through the > years. I have to say that his flames are more enjoyable than they > were in years past, although his historical accuracy has not improved > at all. > > I am curious if any active participants in these groups actually use > those Web-based interfaces (and, no, I don't have any URLs handy -- > they are legion and much easier to find than I want them to be). > > I have often browsed Neil Franklin's archive of Usenet posts. He does > a pretty good job of capturing whole discussions. I think he does it > by hand, though one would hope he uses a program. I've often found > old citations I wanted to reuse at his site, and I am glad he kept it > up. > > Haven't really noticed anything else here lately. I've been pretty > busy. Did anyone ever ask for more information on Tolkien and the > Book of Job (or whatever it was that brought me back here a few weeks > ago)? Michael Martinez, is it true that the majority of California's state gossamer is entwined within your poodle-brush? ###### Message-ID: <40C106CF.C9A841B@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: For the record.... References: <3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 00:33:35 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 83.70.44.88 X-Complaints-To: abuse@eircom.net X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1086392222 83.70.44.88 (Sat, 05 Jun 2004 00:37:02 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 00:37:02 BST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsrout1.ntli.net!news-in.ntli.net!peernews.cix.co.uk!dedekind.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!demorgan.zen.co.uk!feeder.news.heanet.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154050 Michael Martinez wrote: > And I enjoyed Michael O'Neill's "History of Michael Martinez and Bilbo > Baggins", which I arrived at through a laborious search for references > to the history of Babylon. Even when Michael chooses to be an ass, he > can be quite funny and his form has improved tremendously through the > years. I have to say that his flames are more enjoyable than they > were in years past, although his historical accuracy has not improved > at all. At your service, Mr. Baggins. Lurking again, I see. M. ###### From: Morgoth's Curse Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: For the record.... Message-ID: <4384c0lqa7agftvqfm4b5h4jsm20dqi37c@4ax.com> References: <3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.646 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.158.219.37 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr28.news.prodigy.com 1086463947 ST000 4.158.219.37 (Sat, 05 Jun 2004 15:32:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 15:32:27 EDT Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: FKPGWX_D^ZUCB_@Z\JK@^TTDFZ\@@FXLM@TDOCQDJ@_@FNHCYFWUQBKZQLYJX\_ITFD_KFVLUN[DOM_A_NSYNWPFWNS[XV\I]PZ@BQ[@CDQDPCL^FKCBIPC@KLGEZEFNMDYMKHRL_YYYGDSSODXYN@[\BK[LVTWI@AXGQCOA_SAH@TPD^\AL\RLGRFWEARBM Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 19:32:27 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr28.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154208 On 1 Jun 2004 11:24:01 -0700, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >As I do research for various topics, I am finding more and more sites >which are trawling the news groups for content and reposting >discussions as if they were Web-based forum discussions. These are >pretty sophisticated-looking gateways, and I suppose they are being >used to gain search engine rankings rather than to build communities. Just out of curiosity, Michael, do you regard this as a desirable and positive development? If not, do you have any suggestions on how the problem can be corrected? Morgoth's Curse ###### From: "TeaLady (Mari C.)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: For the record.... Date: 10 Jun 2004 02:31:40 GMT Organization: Lint Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b@posting.google.com> <4384c0lqa7agftvqfm4b5h4jsm20dqi37c@4ax.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de +ZvGoK28QHhb8//9SrdI/AYHOC4mTdhFcd1d+QXEOEavqVU6LJ User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 x-face: 8S?dQ)V'hP@.Lf3Ot.sv"e+zw7tDI4*y7F3ySvbXP%qrfyUVyXTSovH~=C}5]"*4K`e4q_@ ]OG'MH[A!iPTo6O:Ru:FUr,R6|%`H^>U:F)MjpAS&{^3A/Mq=/0ewP)VoUj7E^)Ilg`n%{z=R0d88: O{^)NYf]Ys.D#w`R':o+%gkH,f.bZyYp]`)+}?f8$&{,Gz@z9ou=N]Z}o0CI]q&n\\kz/Op@\cg15@S[z&bb'f`2T,a> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154830 Morgoth's Curse wrote in news:4384c0lqa7agftvqfm4b5h4jsm20dqi37c@4ax.com: > On 1 Jun 2004 11:24:01 -0700, Michael@xenite.org (Michael > Martinez) wrote: > >>As I do research for various topics, I am finding more and >>more sites which are trawling the news groups for content >>and reposting discussions as if they were Web-based forum >>discussions. These are pretty sophisticated-looking >>gateways, and I suppose they are being used to gain search >>engine rankings rather than to build communities. > > Just out of curiosity, Michael, do you regard this as a > desirable and positive development? If not, do you have any > suggestions on how the problem can be corrected? > > Morgoth's Curse One thing that you can do, if you find any of your postings on such a site, is write to the webmaster in charge and request that your property (writings) be removed, as you have not given permission for them to be displayed on that site. Getting lawyers involved is sticky and expensive, but in some cases could be warranted. It depends on how the folks whose posts have been trawled feel. -- TeaLady / mari conroy ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: For the record.... References: <3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b@posting.google.com> <4384c0lqa7agftvqfm4b5h4jsm20dqi37c@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 41 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: news.uchicago.edu 1086881576 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:32:56 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:32:56 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: Ia%xc-4550-25-6339@news.uchicago.edu X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: e3a9d73b 1a252a00 276b45ef 85557555 856ec210 Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:32:56 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154866 Quoth "TeaLady (Mari C.)" in article : > Morgoth's Curse wrote: > > Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > >>...I am finding more and more sites which are trawling the news > >>groups for content and reposting discussions as if they were > >>Web-based forum discussions. > > Just out of curiosity, Michael, do you regard this as a desirable > > and positive development? If not, do you have any suggestions on > > how the problem can be corrected? > One thing that you can do, if you find any of your postings on such > a site, is write to the webmaster in charge and request that your > property (writings) be removed, as you have not given permission for > them to be displayed on that site. Hmm. I'm honestly not sure what your rights are in this case (especially since I have no legal training whatsoever). By posting to Usenet, you are explicitly sending your writings to be stored for some period of time on thousands of computers worldwide. Unless you set a specific "Expires" header, I don't think you have any reasonable expectation about when they will be taken off of those servers (and I don't know that the servers are obligated to honor them). Unless you set an "X-No-Archive" header (which isn't even "offical" as far as I know, hence the initial "X-"), you can be sure that it will be archived essentially forever on Google Groups and possibly many other sites (public or private). And you certainly have no control over how public each news server makes its content: some are specific to one ISP, while others are available to the whole world for a fee or even free of charge. The point is, wide distribution and "mirroring" are a fundamental part of Usenet. When you post here, you certainly retain copyright on what you've written, but I would guess that you have implicitly given every Usenet server permission to make those writings public and to forward copies to other servers. It's not clear to me that the websites that display our discussions are doing anything at all illegal. (Even if they are being deceptive by trying to pass us off as part of their own community.) Steuard Jensen ###### From: me@privacy.net (Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: For the record.... Date: 10 Jun 2004 21:39:20 GMT Organization: Dept. of CS, Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Lines: 22 Sender: Jamie Andrews Message-ID: <2is2o8FqqsqnU1@uni-berlin.de> References: <3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b@posting.google.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de oTZ8Sb+FjacLyJ7geD7JZg8kd3AkRwK2C4NuCscefeylLI+b/R X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.4.7-20030322 ("Suggestions") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154890 In rec.arts.books.tolkien Michael Martinez wrote: > As I do research for various topics, I am finding more and more sites > which are trawling the news groups for content and reposting > discussions as if they were Web-based forum discussions. These are > pretty sophisticated-looking gateways, and I suppose they are being > used to gain search engine rankings rather than to build communities. Yep... for instance, go to "www.talkaboutabook.com" and select "J.R.R. Tolkien" (under the Js for some reason). You will find some very familiar-looking discussions. This seems to be part of something called the "talkabout network", which seems to have a structure amazingly similar to that of Usenet. The site puffs the Tolkien discussion with the phrase: "Discuss author J.R.R. Tolkien in the most comprehensive forum online." I don't know whether to be proud or offended by that. --Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita) andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address. @csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.) ###### From: "TeaLady (Mari C.)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: For the record.... Date: 11 Jun 2004 02:17:38 GMT Organization: Lint Lines: 82 Message-ID: References: <3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b@posting.google.com> <4384c0lqa7agftvqfm4b5h4jsm20dqi37c@4ax.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de RqNyHj+L18izzUxludSr7APgR0rDdGSNPZ7iSVxgYAT8HrA7XV User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 x-face: 8S?dQ)V'hP@.Lf3Ot.sv"e+zw7tDI4*y7F3ySvbXP%qrfyUVyXTSovH~=C}5]"*4K`e4q_@ ]OG'MH[A!iPTo6O:Ru:FUr,R6|%`H^>U:F)MjpAS&{^3A/Mq=/0ewP)VoUj7E^)Ilg`n%{z=R0d88: O{^)NYf]Ys.D#w`R':o+%gkH,f.bZyYp]`)+}?f8$&{,Gz@z9ou=N]Z}o0CI]q&n\\kz/Op@\cg15@S[z&bb'f`2T,a> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154903 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in news:Ia%xc.15$25.6470@news.uchicago.edu: > Quoth "TeaLady (Mari C.)" in article > : >> Morgoth's Curse wrote: >> > Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >> >>...I am finding more and more sites which are trawling >> >>the news groups for content and reposting discussions as >> >>if they were Web-based forum discussions. > >> > Just out of curiosity, Michael, do you regard this as a >> > desirable and positive development? If not, do you have >> > any suggestions on how the problem can be corrected? > >> One thing that you can do, if you find any of your postings >> on such a site, is write to the webmaster in charge and >> request that your property (writings) be removed, as you >> have not given permission for them to be displayed on that >> site. > > Hmm. I'm honestly not sure what your rights are in this > case (especially since I have no legal training whatsoever). > By posting to Usenet, you are explicitly sending your > writings to be stored for some period of time on thousands > of computers worldwide. Unless you set a specific "Expires" > header, I don't think you have any reasonable expectation > about when they will be taken off of those servers (and I > don't know that the servers are obligated to honor them). > Unless you set an "X-No-Archive" header (which isn't even > "offical" as far as I know, hence the initial "X-"), you can > be sure that it will be archived essentially forever on > Google Groups and possibly many other sites (public or > private). And you certainly have no control over how public > each news server makes its content: some are specific to one > ISP, while others are available to the whole world for a fee > or even free of charge. > > The point is, wide distribution and "mirroring" are a > fundamental part of Usenet. When you post here, you > certainly retain copyright on what you've written, but I > would guess that you have implicitly given every Usenet > server permission to make those writings public and to > forward copies to other servers. It's not clear to me that > the websites that display our discussions are doing anything > at all illegal. (Even if they are being deceptive by trying > to pass us off as part of their own community.) > Steuard Jensen > I may be not quite understanding the problem as presented. I certainly don't understand all the little laws and rulings and such other legal things that could affect the legality of the trawlers snagging our discussions. We may have no rights or laws to use to stop this. We may have many. I don't know. I do understand that usenet is public, and that anyone who wants to can read, copy, repost, archive, etc., what I posted. If the site and its operators are being deceptive they can be "outed" - exposed - for stealing the works and words of others who are not part of the community and don't want to be. The web master(s) and host(s) can be emailed by each person whose posts appear without permission, and if enough emails are sent, something might done, just to prevent bad press, if for no other reason. I am sure that somewhere there exist lawyers who specialize in this sort of thing - intellectual property rights, most likely, would apply, and I'm certain that as a "group" r.a.b.t. has property rights to the posts herein. The question becomes "Is it worth the time, expense and aggravation" of finding and hiring such lawyers, not is the abusive site doing something illegal. I am also sure that someone, if not from r.a.b.t., then some other group, will eventually get angry enough to give it a whirl. Then we will all know just exactly (ok, almost exactly, as all lawyers leave wiggle room) where the usenet/www fine line of fair use/infringement/theft of property is. -- TeaLady / mari conroy