From: yzetta@yahoo.com (zett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Quotation variation Date: 31 May 2004 09:26:47 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: <4bb40450.0405310826.404ce3cd@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.43.13.126 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1086020808 23714 127.0.0.1 (31 May 2004 16:26:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 16:26:48 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!209.11.36.156.MISMATCH!nntp-server.pubsub.com!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153008 I have a question about variations in the quotation of an especially popular bit of Lord of the Rings. In another thread here someone mentioned Googling for the famous "anti death penalty" passage in Fellowship of the Ring, so I decided to do that just to see what kind of discussions people were having about it. Anyway, I came across something curious. In my 1980's Ballantine paperback and in my collector's edition (the big red book) Gandalf says: Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? The do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. But more than once during my Googling I have seen it quoted this way (I added * and [ ] between the parts that are different for emphasis): Deserves *death*! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some *die that* deserve life. Can you give *that* to them? Then *be not* too eager to deal out death in *the name of justice, fearing for your own safety*. [For] Even the [very] wise cannot see all ends. What I wonder is this. Are the parts that people are quoting on Google from a first edition, from the movies, or what? (Maybe it's a combination of both??) I don't own any older editions of LoTR. But when I used to try to quote this passage from memory, I used to put in the words "fearing for your own safety" and I remember this as being before the movies came out. But I never remember "in the name of justice" as being part of the original quote. Well, anyway, would anyone tell me where this variation is from? ###### From: Matthew Woodcraft Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quotation variation Date: 31 May 2004 18:05:10 +0100 (BST) Organization: Linux Unlimited Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0405310826.404ce3cd@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rapun.sel.cam.ac.uk Originator: mattheww@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([193.201.200.170]) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.space.net!easynews.net!newsfeed3.easynews.net!195.40.0.165.MISMATCH!easynet-monga!easynet.net!feed4.jnfs.ja.net!feed3.jnfs.ja.net!jnfs.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153020 In article <4bb40450.0405310826.404ce3cd@posting.google.com>, zett wrote: >Deserves *death*! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And >some *die that* deserve life. Can you give *that* to them? Then *be >not* too eager to deal out death in *the name of justice, fearing for >your own safety*. [For] Even the [very] wise cannot see all ends. >Well, anyway, would anyone tell me where this variation is from? This is the way Frodo remembers the conversation in 'The Taming of Smeagol'. -M- ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <4bb40450.0405310826.404ce3cd@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Quotation variation Lines: 90 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 17:20:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1086024008 82.43.162.58 (Mon, 31 May 2004 18:20:08 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 18:20:08 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsrout1.ntli.net!news-in.ntli.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153021 [Eventually tracked down the misquote!! - answer at end of post] zett wrote: > I have a question about variations in the quotation of an especially > popular bit of Lord of the Rings. > Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some > that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? The do not be too > eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot > see all ends. Googling for the phrase: "deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends" ...gets 1850 hits. > But more than once during my Googling I have seen it quoted this way > (I added * and [ ] between the parts that are different for emphasis): > > Deserves *death*! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And > some *die that* deserve life. Can you give *that* to them? Then *be > not* too eager to deal out death in *the name of justice, fearing for > your own safety*. [For] Even the [very] wise cannot see all ends. Hmm. Googling the following phrase: "deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for" ...gets 906 hits. "deal out death in the name of justice, fearing" + Tolkien ...gets 681 hits. I would say that all the examples have propagated from a single incorrect quotation, but what the original misquote is, I could not say. I would suspect (as it is not the Jackson films - maybe the Bakshi film or radio versions) some online game or quotations website or roleplaying game, has misquoted the passage. It might even be traceable back to the unauthorised Ace books? If anyone could be bothered, I'm sure there are plenty of other misquotes out there. > I don't own any older editions of LoTR. But when I used to try to > quote this passage from memory, I used to put in the words "fearing > for your own safety" and I remember this as being before the movies > came out. But I never remember "in the name of justice" as being part > of the original quote. Strange. I would think that "in the name of justice" could be a misremembered form of "in judgement". The other changes are fairly minor misquotes, most likely due to not transcribing the original carefully enough. It is the "fearing for your own safety" that is strange. > Well, anyway, would anyone tell me where this variation is from? Finally hit the jackpot while looking on Google Groups. It was in a post to this very newsgroup (obviously the fount of all Tolkien-related wisdom): http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=4m71oc%24gvi%40nuke.csu.net&output=gplain "*p.s., in the American audio-drama production (I don't know about the BBC version), this great quote gets edited a bit, like "Deserves it!" being changed to "Deserves death!" and "Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement" to "Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own life." I don't know that these are improvements or not." If anyone can track down the BBC radio version of this quote... Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <4bb40450.0405310826.404ce3cd@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Quotation variation Lines: 4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 17:26:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1086024393 82.43.162.58 (Mon, 31 May 2004 18:26:33 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 18:26:33 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153022 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > [Eventually tracked down the misquote!! - answer at end of post] Scrub that! Much better answer elsewhere in this thread... :-) ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <4bb40450.0405310826.404ce3cd@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Quotation variation Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <5vLuc.35478$zn.460@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 19:15:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.225.105 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1086030913 65.26.225.105 (Mon, 31 May 2004 14:15:13 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:15:13 CDT Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!peernews-us.colt.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!headwall.stanford.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153040 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >> [Eventually tracked down the misquote!! - answer at end of post] > > Scrub that! Much better answer elsewhere in this thread... :-) LOL We appreciate your efforts anyway Christopher! -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### From: yzetta@yahoo.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quotation variation Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 15:19:23 -0400 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0405310826.404ce3cd@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.43.13.131 X-Trace: corp.newsgroups.com 1086031032 69.43.13.131 (31 May 2004 14:17:12 -0500) Lines: 30 X-Comments: This message was posted through Visit Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news-out2.nntp.be!local!corp.newsgroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153035 On 31 May 2004 18:05:10 +0100 (BST), Matthew Woodcraft wrote: >In article <4bb40450.0405310826.404ce3cd@posting.google.com>, >zett wrote: >>Deserves *death*! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And >>some *die that* deserve life. Can you give *that* to them? Then *be >>not* too eager to deal out death in *the name of justice, fearing for >>your own safety*. [For] Even the [very] wise cannot see all ends. > >>Well, anyway, would anyone tell me where this variation is from? > >This is the way Frodo remembers the conversation in 'The Taming of >Smeagol'. > >-M- Heh. I had just now figured that out and was hoping to get back in here in time to post a "never mind" before any one caught me out, but too late... How in the world I could have read this book 20+ times and not remember it any better than I do... Anyway, excuse me. I have to go wash some egg off my face. :grin: -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- ###### From: yzetta@yahoo.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quotation variation Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 15:28:55 -0400 Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0405310826.404ce3cd@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.43.13.131 X-Trace: corp.newsgroups.com 1086031604 69.43.13.131 (31 May 2004 14:26:44 -0500) Lines: 17 X-Comments: This message was posted through Visit Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news-out2.nntp.be!local!corp.newsgroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153043 On Mon, 31 May 2004 17:26:33 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote: >Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >> [Eventually tracked down the misquote!! - answer at end of post] > > Scrub that! Much better answer elsewhere in this thread... :-) :smile: I read your other post about possible radio versions etc...I am glad that I am not the only one who didn't immediately remember that it was from a different page in the same book. Especially in light of all the excellent posts I have seen you put up on this group. I don't feel quite so foolish now. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <4bb40450.0405310826.404ce3cd@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Quotation variation Lines: 34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 Message-ID: <1PMuc.17772$k4.356048@news1.nokia.com> Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 20:44:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.25.150.248 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1086036285 172.25.150.248 (Mon, 31 May 2004 23:44:45 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:44:45 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-stoc.telia.net!news-stoa.telia.net!telia.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153071 in , Matthew Woodcraft enriched us with: > > In article <4bb40450.0405310826.404ce3cd@posting.google.com>, > zett wrote: >> >> Deserves *death*! I daresay he does. [...] >> Well, anyway, would anyone tell me where this variation is from? > > This is the way Frodo remembers the conversation in 'The Taming of > Smeagol'. Heh! And I had already started finding my .sig file ;-) which should produce the following: "He deserves death." "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." - Tolkien in The Fellowship of the Ring As you say this is from I,2 'The Shadow of the Past' and fits my HM edition (TH fifty years celebration hardcover), while the other wording is from the later chapter. -- Troels Forchhammer The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head. - (Terry Pratchett, Hogfather) ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <4bb40450.0405310826.404ce3cd@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Quotation variation Lines: 34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 Message-ID: <6PMuc.17773$k4.356048@news1.nokia.com> Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 20:44:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.25.150.248 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1086036290 172.25.150.248 (Mon, 31 May 2004 23:44:50 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:44:50 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-stoc.telia.net!news-stoa.telia.net!telia.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153072 in , Matthew Woodcraft enriched us with: > > In article <4bb40450.0405310826.404ce3cd@posting.google.com>, > zett wrote: >> >> Deserves *death*! I daresay he does. [...] >> Well, anyway, would anyone tell me where this variation is from? > > This is the way Frodo remembers the conversation in 'The Taming of > Smeagol'. Heh! And I had already started finding my .sig file ;-) which should produce the following: "He deserves death." "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." - Tolkien in The Fellowship of the Ring As you say this is from I,2 'The Shadow of the Past' and fits my HM edition (TH fifty years celebration hardcover), while the other wording is from the later chapter. -- Troels Forchhammer The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head. - (Terry Pratchett, Hogfather) ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quotation variation Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 17:32:32 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0405310826.404ce3cd@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153091 "zett" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Well, anyway, would anyone tell me where this variation is from? People misquote things all the time, particularly when the phrasing or sentence structure is not what they use. Most people now say "have your cake and eat it" when people want contradictory things, but that's not very remarkable. The true and original phrase is "eat your cake and have it" -- _that_ would be a trick. So I do not think you need to look for variant editions of LotR. The explanation is much simpler: ordinary human carelessness. -- For example, I notice at one point you wrote "the" for "then". :-) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Quotation variation Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 17:33:54 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <4bb40450.0405310826.404ce3cd@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!217.19.16.136.MISMATCH!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!nntp-server.pubsub.com!news.glorb.com!news.airnews.net!cabal12.airnews.net!cabal11.airnews.net!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153092 "Matthew Woodcraft" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >This is the way Frodo remembers the conversation in 'The Taming of >Smeagol'. D'oh! I completely forgot about that second version, and burbled on about careless misquotes. Oh well! -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm