From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Orc Females and Children Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:33:25 GMT Organization: Topiary of Cthulhu Lines: 64 Message-ID: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ndcvba1.utc.com X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1085430820 17296 192.249.49.31 (24 May 2004 20:33:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:33:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!205.188.226.97!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151976 The evidence that there _were_ orc females and children is conclusive: JRRT stated that orcs multiply after the manner of the other races, and we're told of an orc "Imp" (child) that Gollum ate in TH. Other than that, however, neither are ever seen. Or are they? Let's revisit Isengard and look at some facts: 1.) Over a rather short period of time (no more than sixty years, possibly much less) Saruman breeds a huge army of orcs and sends them out to the battle at Helm's Deep. How do they multiply so fast? A rapidly growing population of humans will have a very high proportion of children, and from a small start it will take several generations for population growth to pick up speed. 2.) After he sends out his armies, the Ents attack Isengard, and there doesn't seem to be a single orc in the whole place. We hear about the gate guards running away, but never see a single orc attempting to escape, even from the floods, which would surely drown any underground barracks. So, we conclude that if Saruman is building up his army, he needs lots of females. But if the underground barracks at Isengard were swarming with female orcs surely they would have attempted to escape the floods, and we would have seen them: for a 50-50 sex ratio, there should have been tens of thousands of them. If orcs take decades to reach maturity, there should have been problems building up the population so fast, and there should have been many thousands of orc children on-site. My solution? Orcs mature very fast -- a year or so, maybe, like many mammals. This allows quick growth of the population (the difference in growth rates between a decade-or-two and a year-or-two before females bear a child is just hugely enormous: the difference goes in the exponent, not in a mere mulitiplier). And where are the females? In the army, of course. Perhaps Gorbag and Shagrat, for example, were female: I don't know of any evidence to the contrary. In fact, they wanted to "slip off with some likely lads" once there was "more room" after the war was won. Sounds like a couple of wanna-be matriarchs to me! Female orcs in the army explains how nearly the entire population of orcs could be gone from Isengard (and, for that matter, the inner parts of Mordor, when Frodo and Sam were on their way to the Mountain). It also explains how the orcs of the Misty Mountains could have been "cleaned out" by the Battle of Five Armies. If only the orc males had been killed in that battle, the tens of thousands of females left back in the caves could have continued reproducing (with the few lucky males who were left). Only if both sexes were wiped out could the North expect a lengthy period free from their depredations (and seventy years later, the survival of Dale in the War of the Ring is partly accounted for by the success of the BoFA). Whattaya'll think of my conclusions? I know that canon is near-silent on the topic, and we're well into the speculative here, and these issues have been hashed-over before, but I'm posting this anyway, so there! Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat) -- "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." -- Vernon Schryver ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:48:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1085431735 82.43.162.58 (Mon, 24 May 2004 21:48:55 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:48:55 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsrout1.ntli.net!news-in.ntli.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151978 Jim Deutch <103134.3516@compuserve.com> wrote: > And where are the females? In the army, of course. Perhaps Gorbag > and Shagrat, for example, were female: I don't know of any evidence to > the contrary. In fact, they wanted to "slip off with some likely > lads" once there was "more room" after the war was won. Sounds like a > couple of wanna-be matriarchs to me! Gorbag and Shagrat - the female orcs - I like it! :-) ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 01:16:51 +0300 Organization: Helsinki Television Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs181058186.pp.htv.fi X-Trace: nyytiset.pp.htv.fi 1085437011 27294 82.181.58.186 (24 May 2004 22:16:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@pp.htv.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 22:16:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!nyytiset.pp.htv.fi!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151988 "Jim Deutch" <103134.3516@compuserve.com> kirjoitti viestissä:40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com... > 1.) Over a rather short period of time (no more than sixty years, > possibly much less) Saruman breeds a huge army of orcs and sends them > out to the battle at Helm's Deep. How do they multiply so fast? A > rapidly growing population of humans will have a very high proportion > of children, and from a small start it will take several generations > for population growth to pick up speed. Why no more then 60 years? He could have started experiments any time after he moved to Isengard. And it's not like he had to start from scratches. Had a large stock of Orcs and Humans at his disposal in Dunland and Misty Mountains. > 2.) After he sends out his armies, the Ents attack Isengard, and there > doesn't seem to be a single orc in the whole place. We hear about the > gate guards running away, but never see a single orc attempting to > escape, even from the floods, which would surely drown any underground > barracks. There were few orcs who tried to escape, but most had gone with the army. > So, we conclude that if Saruman is building up his army, he needs lots > of females. The Orc breeding grounds were in the mountains around Isengard. Females and kids were there. Morgil ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: 24 May 2004 23:51:52 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 19 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pacific.cse.msu.edu X-AUTHid: wagners5 User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.9 (sun4u)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152008 Jim Deutch <103134.3516@compuserve.com> wrote: : And where are the females? In the army, of course. Perhaps Gorbag : and Shagrat, for example, were female: I don't know of any evidence to : the contrary. In fact, they wanted to "slip off with some likely : lads" once there was "more room" after the war was won. Sounds like a : couple of wanna-be matriarchs to me! Some quotes, with emphasis added, from "The Tower of Cirith Ungol". "'That's enough from you,' snarled Shagrat. 'I had my orders. It was Gorbag started it, trying to pinch that pretty shirt.' 'Well, you put *his* back up, being so high and mighty. And *he* had more sense than you anyway." "Behind him came Shagrat, a large orc with long arms that, as *he* ran crouching, reached to the ground." Shagrat and Gorbag (and Snaga) are referred to as 'he'. Stephen ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: 25 May 2004 01:05:10 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de C2vXJas88hs1OsVvRL54nQW5B9V553d5W2DL8CjYohE4D6vKM7 User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152015 On 24 May 2004 23:51:52 GMT, stephen@nomail.com wrote: > Jim Deutch <103134.3516@compuserve.com> wrote: >: And where are the females? In the army, of course. Perhaps Gorbag >: and Shagrat, for example, were female: I don't know of any evidence to >: the contrary. In fact, they wanted to "slip off with some likely >: lads" once there was "more room" after the war was won. Sounds like a >: couple of wanna-be matriarchs to me! > > Some quotes, with emphasis added, from "The Tower of Cirith Ungol". > "'That's enough from you,' snarled Shagrat. 'I had my orders. > It was Gorbag started it, trying to pinch that pretty shirt.' > 'Well, you put *his* back up, being so high and mighty. And *he* > had more sense than you anyway." > > "Behind him came Shagrat, a large orc with long arms that, as *he* > ran crouching, reached to the ground." > > Shagrat and Gorbag (and Snaga) are referred to as 'he'. It could very well be in a society as violent as Orcish tribes must have been that females were, in fact, protected from open strife. They may have been objects of strife and intense competition. I can envision an Orc chieftain with several wives, and with other Orcs competing with and trying to kill him for mates. After all, it takes only one Orc to impregnate many females, but too many females in combat and you risk destroying the only means by which the next generation could come about. My hunch is that during the Battle of the Five Armies, the females were left behind in the various strongholds, and that, over the next several decades (what was it, close to 80 years?) the Orc population in the Misty Mountains recovered. Possibly the reason we see Orcs out of Mordor in Moria is that Sauron had sent them there to aid with the repopulation of the devestated groups. In this case, I would expect that Orcs would breed faster than humans, and that population replacement in the Misty Mountains was from local groups. I'm sure that the number of Mordor Orcs required to beef up the numbers would have been so great that someone would have noticed it. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### Reply-To: "Bill O'Meally" From: "Bill O'Meally" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 01:32:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.26.225.105 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1085448727 65.26.225.105 (Mon, 24 May 2004 20:32:07 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:32:07 CDT Organization: RoadRunner Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152024 Jim Deutch wrote: > Whattaya'll think of my conclusions? I know that canon is near-silent > on the topic, and we're well into the speculative here, and these > issues have been hashed-over before, but I'm posting this anyway, so > there! It has always been my contention that Orc armies consisted of both males and females. -- Bill "Wise fool" Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS -- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not-- ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:46:30 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.space.net!easynews.net!newsfeed3.easynews.net!feeder.news.heanet.ie!feed4.jnfs.ja.net!jnfs.ja.net!zen.net.uk!hamilton.zen.co.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-peer-test!btnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152112 On Mon, 24 May 2004 20:33:25 GMT, 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) wrote: > >Whattaya'll think of my conclusions? I know that canon is near-silent >on the topic, and we're well into the speculative here, and these >issues have been hashed-over before, but I'm posting this anyway, so >there! > Orcs are bisexual like the people of Gethen/Winter (_The Left Hand of Darkness_, U. K. LeGuin). After 'kemmer' they are all euqally soldiers. the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "If you ever reach total enlightenment while you're drinking a beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose." --Jack Handy ###### Message-ID: <20040527001645.31871.qmail@riot.eu.org> From: Igenlode Author-Supplied-Address: tethys blackhole riot eu org Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:56:28 +0100 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> Reply-To: Igenlode_W@nym.alias.net Organization: The Ivory Tower ( http://curry.250x.com/Tower ) Mail-To-News-Contact: abuse@dizum.com Lines: 28 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.glorb.com!news.bananasplit.info!news.dizum.com!sewer-output!mail2news Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152205 On 24 May 2004 Jim Deutch wrote: > My solution? Orcs mature very fast -- a year or so, maybe, like many > mammals. This allows quick growth of the population (the difference > in growth rates between a decade-or-two and a year-or-two before > females bear a child is just hugely enormous: the difference goes in > the exponent, not in a mere mulitiplier). > > And where are the females? In the army, of course. Feels about right to me. After all, Orcs were artificially bred by Morgoth as cannon-fodder for his wars (he could have done a great many things 'in mockery of the Elves', but he evidently chose to produce fighting-machines). I can't see either Saruman or Sauron wasting resources on a race where the female half of the population was of no use for their purposes. Horses, for example, would have been of rather less use to mankind if the females could not be put to work while they were breeding. (It doesn't entirely answer the question of where all the 'yearling' orcs were when Isengard was emptied, though - presumably they were being trained elsewhere...) -- Igenlode Bookwraith unabashed The world owes you nothing. It was here first. ###### From: "Zimri" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 70.240.234.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr22.news.prodigy.com 1085611913 ST000 70.240.234.161 (Wed, 26 May 2004 18:51:53 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 18:51:53 EDT Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: [[OGSZSDGJTYBPH]]RKB_UDAZZ\DPCPDLXUNNHLIWIWTEPIB_NVUAH_[BL[\IRKIANGGJBFNJF_DOLSCENSY^U@FRFUEXR@KFXYDBPWBCDQJA@X_DCBHXR[C@\EOKCJLED_SZ@RMWYXYWE_P@\\GOIW^@SYFFSWHFIXMADO@^[ADPRPETLBJ]RDGENSKQQZN Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:51:53 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!serpens!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr22.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!1dccac64!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152200 "AC": > It could very well be in a society as violent as Orcish tribes must have > been that females were, in fact, protected from open strife. They may have > been objects of strife and intense competition. I can envision an Orc > chieftain with several wives, and with other Orcs competing with and trying > to kill him for mates. A culture-wide acceptance of polygamy will result in a desparate underclass of low-status, undersexed males. In addition, the males of middle status are likely to prey upon children. Add to that continual propaganda from the orkish elite that their society is the best on the planet; there are other races to blame for any perceived shortcomings. I think AC is right. Orkish females are kept locked away. No outsider will ever see one. -- zimriel sbc dot at global net . http://pages.sbcglobal.net/zimriel/blog/zimblog.html because everyone else is doing it ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:31:50 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 57 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152217 On Wed, 26 May 2004 22:51:53 GMT, "Zimri" wrote: >"AC": >> It could very well be in a society as violent as Orcish tribes must have >> been that females were, in fact, protected from open strife. They may >have >> been objects of strife and intense competition. I can envision an Orc >> chieftain with several wives, and with other Orcs competing with and >trying >> to kill him for mates. > >A culture-wide acceptance of polygamy will result in a desparate underclass >of low-status, undersexed males. In addition, the males of middle status are >likely to prey upon children. Add to that continual propaganda from the >orkish elite that their society is the best on the planet; there are other >races to blame for any perceived shortcomings. > >I think AC is right. Orkish females are kept locked away. No outsider will >ever see one. There are no Orcish 'females' per se. All orcs are hermaphroditic with complete, fully functional genitalia for both sexes. In questions of 'gender', the 'female' is the one on the bottom during the rape, uh, intercourse. It's a dominance thing, like baboons. Frequently the 'male' uses the incorrect 'point-of-entry'. Thus orc bands are not overrun with offspring ('imps'). In any band, the only 'complete' 'male' is the leader of the band. All of the other orcs have been 'female' at some time or other. Thus 'female' orcs are completely indistinguishable from 'male' orcs, except that they average a trifle fatter. We do not 'see' 'imps' because they have two instincts: hide and eat. Notice that Gollum actually managed to catch a imp. It is dangerous for any orc to fall to heavily asleep, because the imps will eat him. The imps also keep the population of younger, smaller imps down. By the time an imp is old enough and large enough to reproduce, it has. At least it has gone through the Principle Ritual. It was either that or be eaten. 'Female' orcs clutch one to five imps at a time. Generally there are no more than two survivors of any one litter who live more than a week. The other have become 'lunch'. So the 'female' orcs and the immature orcs are not noticeable. Orc populations grow rather slowly without Special Stimulus which was obviously provided upon occasion by Morgoth and Sauron. BTW, orcs hate dwarves because they find them so incredibly sexy, leading to bloody orc orgies. the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "Do not condemn the judgement of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong." Dandemis ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 11:38:50 -0500 From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 12:38:49 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4927.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4927.1200 Message-ID: <1NadnX3_9LUHhCvdRVn-jg@conversent.net> Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.203.74.66 X-Trace: sv3-cTrX1KdPtbYWmjB6LrCaFbx7tcEHyDQCCiP8nVFdDIsgU59iTEtIkCZ7zPYF40Zvmkc6giWaqtU+fop!nJAYVDmJqQRJZGGUk5zhS63tOp3YUVLcX5CTCvVRlI1TTPYrUPgmh9L7qet1MxLNnOCeURgsLPBc!wp1k6Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!217.19.16.136.MISMATCH!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.conversent.net!news.conversent.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152246 "the softrat" wrote in message news:0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com... > > There are no Orcish 'females' per se. [snip] God damn-it! This one is going to stick in my head for freaking YEARS! Very good and very funny, softrat. T.A. ###### From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 20:01:08 GMT Organization: Topiary of Cthulhu Lines: 15 Message-ID: <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ndcvba1.utc.com X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1085688089 6836 192.249.49.31 (27 May 2004 20:01:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 20:01:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152271 On Wed, 26 May 2004 19:31:50 -0700, the softrat wrote: > >There are no Orcish 'females' per se. All orcs are hermaphroditic with I find your theory convicing and logical. It is an obvious (in hindsight!) extension of my own. Rather than males and females that are merely difficult to distinguish, you have them actually identical. That's truly cutting to the heart of the matter. I applaud you, sir, and hereby relinquish (at least temporarily) the traditional enmity between our kinds. Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat) -- "If a tree falls in the forest...it'll land on me." - Andrew Rakin ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 86 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 13:22:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1085750546 64.59.144.74 (Fri, 28 May 2004 07:22:26 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 07:22:26 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feed5.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152339 "Jim Deutch" <103134.3516@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com... > On Wed, 26 May 2004 19:31:50 -0700, the softrat > wrote: > > > >There are no Orcish 'females' per se. All orcs are hermaphroditic with > > I find your theory convicing and logical. It is an obvious (in > hindsight!) extension of my own. Rather than males and females that > are merely difficult to distinguish, you have them actually identical. > That's truly cutting to the heart of the matter. I applaud you, sir, > and hereby relinquish (at least temporarily) the traditional enmity > between our kinds. To say it simply, orcs are non-sexual. They do not reproduce, or rather, are not produced (by Sauron and Saruman) on a sexual basis. They are spawned; how, exactly, it is not made clear. But make no mistake, it would be a horrible and gruesome process, akin to the macabre creation of the Frankenstein monster. Is it not stated explicitly by Tolkien, that orcs were elves, "twisted and ruined into terrible form", or is that just Christopher Lee's line? Peter Jackson suggest orcs might be borne out of the mud deep (100m-ish) in the earth, but one might reasonably infer from that suggestion, that you could dig anywhere in Middle-earth there was wet muddy earth, and have a chance of finding an orc, just waiting to be released. Totally preposterous, of course. But, orcs are a literary device, and one need not worry too much how they might be made, unless of course one were actually interested in making said orcs. =P I think Tolkien intuitively understood that a race, i.e. the orcs, would not be viable without some diversity, and that is why orcs are not clones. Today this is well-understood by the educated public to be true -- it might best be referred to as 'genetic diversity neccessary for the continuation of a species'. Clearly then, if orcs are 'made' rather than being something that reproduces of its own volition, then their makers, being Sauron and his servants, exercise some degree of choice and freedom and creativity in deciding what, precisely, kind of orc to create. Indeed, if one could imagine a wicked man of the Haradrim, working to create a new orc by some unknown means, how would he go about creating what he wishes to create, i.e. by what mechanisms does the choice of orc translate into what type of orc is created? Certainly something involving the creation of body parts from pre-existing body parts. You may not need to clone a whole orc to get another orc, but you would at least have to, for instance, take one living orcish bone, or heart, or brain, and make another. This seems vaguely feasible to me, but the degree of meticiculousness required seems to me to be completely prohibitive of the type of scenario where orcs are bred to vastly out-number the men of Gondor. You could horde orcs, one by one, and gradually, incrementally build them up to such vast numbers, but what do they eat in the meantime? It's made abundantly clear that Mordor is exactly the type of place that you're NOT going to find any food, so where does the food come from that sustains the orcs, while Sauron is building up his armies? All this can be overcome by the realization the orcs do, in fact, have to be sexual. There *must* be female orcs, but maybe with very little sexual dimorphism evident. i.e. the male provides the seed, the female gestates, but beyond that there are no concrete limitations to what can happen. Perhaps, by 'spawning', Tolkien means that two orcs have sex, a fetus is formed, but during the formation of the fetus some customizations can be made. That would have to be how Sauron got orcs from elves. Or, Sauron could just do what dog breeders do, and breed for certain characteristics. And, the constant state of being in pain, that the orcs experience, as Gandalf mentions, would be because what he's doing is so unnatural that his 'modified elves' have all sorts of genetic 'defects', biological features that persistently hinder their ability to live comfortably. Kind hard to imagine what those kind of features might be, that at any given moment any given orc would be expected to say, "I wish I were dead". And, if that were the case, obviously there would be a very high suicide rate among orcs, presenting another massively prohibitive obstacle to Sauron building up the types of armies neccessary to conquer Minas Tirith. Or, maybe Gandalf is just lying, by essentially saying that the best thing you could ever hope to do for an orc would be to kill it. A manifestation of racial intolerence, so to speak. So in that sense, perhaps Tolkien *was* a bit of a racist, though the species he was racist against did not and does not, of course, in fact, exist. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:13:04 -0500 From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 11:13:00 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4927.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.203.74.66 X-Trace: sv3-k0DBaS5yqLMwF8Gkfw2QiBNDSGhcG4xi/UIKT58JD4nX5HxbaXyj/vBYX/D3OSbiEYn3C9myaE43zla!Khkctf5IHbF5qM3vmSXC5aIDooL4kXgaX3VjdizmIS3IP8uzgigkYh4RnWAbFEhIXIWsoCVgkt1p!jM3Yuw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@conversent.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.conversent.net!news.conversent.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152349 "Chris Wright" wrote in message news:m2Htc.611883$Ig.494469@pd7tw2no... > [snip some silly stuff] > > Or, maybe Gandalf is just lying, by essentially saying that the best thing > you could ever hope to do for an orc would be to kill it. A manifestation of > racial intolerence, so to speak. So in that sense, perhaps Tolkien *was* a > bit of a racist, though the species he was racist against did not and does > not, of course, in fact, exist. > I'm starting to find your posts amusing now. Though I'm not sure others have caught on yet. :o) T.A. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <3bNtc.609845$oR5.65557@pd7tw3no> Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 20:21:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1085775679 64.59.144.74 (Fri, 28 May 2004 14:21:19 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 14:21:19 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!217.19.16.136.MISMATCH!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152362 "The American" wrote in message news:LuadnUlPd4acyirdRVn-sQ@conversent.net... > > "Chris Wright" wrote in message > news:m2Htc.611883$Ig.494469@pd7tw2no... > > > > [snip some silly stuff] > > > > > Or, maybe Gandalf is just lying, by essentially saying that the best > thing > > you could ever hope to do for an orc would be to kill it. A manifestation > of > > racial intolerence, so to speak. So in that sense, perhaps Tolkien *was* a > > bit of a racist, though the species he was racist against did not and does > > not, of course, in fact, exist. > > > > I'm starting to find your posts amusing now. > Though I'm not sure others have caught on yet. > :o) > Yes, I'm glad you are. =) ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 17:26:05 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152391 On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:01:08 GMT, in rec.arts.books.tolkien 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) wrote: >On Wed, 26 May 2004 19:31:50 -0700, the softrat >wrote: >> >>There are no Orcish 'females' per se. All orcs are hermaphroditic with > >I find your theory convicing and logical. Thank you. I rather bagged the theory, with certain modifications, from the sci-fi writer Ursula K. LeGuin, _The Left Hand of Darkness_. the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Can you look at an aardvark and see nothing funny? ###### From: "TeaLady (Mari C.)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: 29 May 2004 19:25:52 GMT Organization: Lint Lines: 60 Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de tGXY3od8roXdWh0EXKvbwwtK+pkDJ1caxxPExdg7jwrB+u6fTu User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 x-face: 8S?dQ)V'hP@.Lf3Ot.sv"e+zw7tDI4*y7F3ySvbXP%qrfyUVyXTSovH~=C}5]"*4K`e4q_@ ]OG'MH[A!iPTo6O:Ru:FUr,R6|%`H^>U:F)MjpAS&{^3A/Mq=/0ewP)VoUj7E^)Ilg`n%{z=R0d88: O{^)NYf]Ys.D#w`R':o+%gkH,f.bZyYp]`)+}?f8$&{,Gz@z9ou=N]Z}o0CI]q&n\\kz/Op@\cg15@S[z&bb'f`2T,a> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152485 the softrat wrote in news:f4mfb05am25t9suuc53pfa2tgdp5o5u0hf@4ax.com: > On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:01:08 GMT, in rec.arts.books.tolkien > 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) wrote: > >>On Wed, 26 May 2004 19:31:50 -0700, the softrat >> wrote: >>> >>>There are no Orcish 'females' per se. All orcs are >>>hermaphroditic with >> >>I find your theory convicing and logical. > > Thank you. I rather bagged the theory, with certain > modifications, from the sci-fi writer Ursula K. LeGuin, _The > Left Hand of Darkness_. > I notice that many of the theories have the orcs with far more males than females, or with a large portion of the population marked out for breeding and useless as fighters, or with a slow growth rate (excepting softrat's). It would make far more sense, in an army and slave building venture, to have the females be nearly indistinguishable in size and strength from the males, and vastly outnumber them. One male could impregnate (im-imp-gnate ?) many females, and if the females were as tough as the males, they could carry on their duties almost up to the moment of birth. I would imagine that, given this scenario, a few weaker members (male or female) would be left in charge of fostering the young orcs while the troop/band/group went about murdering and mayhemming as usual. If a high-order multiple birth (say a regular birthing of 3 or 4, with the human equivalent of twins or triplets going as high as 9 or 10 in orcs) were built in to the genetics then a single female could replace quite a few adults in short order, during war-times, and create huge armies in a short period during pre-war preparation times. And as to the Uruk-hai et al - selective breeding and crossing with select humans (by Saruman and Sauron) could create the greater orc variation seen in the LOTR times. I imagine more brutish and violent human males, bred for those and other traits (not as intelligent so as to be more likely to follow Sauron, less apt to question orders, and closer in looks to orcs so that cross-breeding would not be as anathema, visually, to the human male) would be used, as the death rate for female captives treated thus would be too high a ratio for effective cross breeding programs; drug a female orc or three, have the man do his bit (maybe add a drop of the joy juice to his grog as well), and you have a lesser chance of losing the breeder and a greater chance of creating the orc "super race". The only drawback I see is the potential for human and orc to not successfully inter-breed. Then the uruk-hai were created by other means, ones far more speculative than I dare to put forth. -- TeaLady / mari conroy ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 22:06:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1085868390 64.59.144.74 (Sat, 29 May 2004 16:06:30 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 16:06:30 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152498 "TeaLady (Mari C.)" wrote in message news:Xns94F89CFDDCA0Cspblt@130.133.1.4... > the softrat wrote in > news:f4mfb05am25t9suuc53pfa2tgdp5o5u0hf@4ax.com: > > > On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:01:08 GMT, in rec.arts.books.tolkien > > 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) wrote: > > > >>On Wed, 26 May 2004 19:31:50 -0700, the softrat > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>There are no Orcish 'females' per se. All orcs are > >>>hermaphroditic with > >> > >>I find your theory convicing and logical. > > > > Thank you. I rather bagged the theory, with certain > > modifications, from the sci-fi writer Ursula K. LeGuin, _The > > Left Hand of Darkness_. > > > > I notice that many of the theories have the orcs with far more > males than females, or with a large portion of the population > marked out for breeding and useless as fighters, or with a slow > growth rate (excepting softrat's). It would make far more > sense, in an army and slave building venture, to have the > females be nearly indistinguishable in size and strength from > the males, and vastly outnumber them. One male could impregnate > (im-imp-gnate ?) many females, and if the females were as tough > as the males, they could carry on their duties almost up to the > moment of birth. I would imagine that, given this scenario, a > few weaker members (male or female) would be left in charge of > fostering the young orcs while the troop/band/group went about > murdering and mayhemming as usual. If a high-order multiple > birth (say a regular birthing of 3 or 4, with the human > equivalent of twins or triplets going as high as 9 or 10 in > orcs) were built in to the genetics then a single female could > replace quite a few adults in short order, during war-times, and > create huge armies in a short period during pre-war preparation > times. > [snip] You, know, I think you've got to be constricted to the fact that Tolkien used the word "spawned", which is not really suggestive of any possibility of "female" orcs, unless you are willing to concede that perhaps Tolkien held a subtly cynical view of the role and uses of women. Vis a vis the Eowyn character, it is clear he does not. I am more likely to imagine that there are incubating vessels of some sort, where you have the conception of life, you have influx of nutrients and neccessary compenents to life, but without much else, how shall I put it, in the way of 'female' body parts. A uterus, so to speak, with only minimal extraneous apparatus. Muddy pits and chambers is perhaps quite a good realization within these parameters -- I will retract my earlier claim that Jackson's visualization was flawed, that it does in fact correlate very well with the term 'spawned'. Still, one must then ask, what is so special about these birthing chambers, than you can't just dig a hole in the ground anywhere and hope to find an orc. What's been done to the mud, that is can create orcs. All part of the wonderfully sinister mystery surrounding the nefarious, profane affairs of Sauron and Saruman, of course. =) ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 23:42:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1085874139 82.43.162.58 (Sun, 30 May 2004 00:42:19 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 00:42:19 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152518 Chris Wright wrote: [orc reproduction] > You, know, I think you've got to be constricted to the fact that > Tolkien used the word "spawned I believe that word (spawned) is only used in the books by Sam. He is hardly likely to be an expert on orc reproduction. Best to think of it as a colloquialism, despite the films. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 00:06:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1085875591 64.59.144.74 (Sat, 29 May 2004 18:06:31 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 18:06:31 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152522 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:vd9uc.829$Kk3.8925246@news-text.cableinet.net... > Chris Wright wrote: > > [orc reproduction] > > > You, know, I think you've got to be constricted to the fact that > > Tolkien used the word "spawned > > I believe that word (spawned) is only used in the books by Sam. He is > hardly likely to be an expert on orc reproduction. Best to think of it > as a colloquialism, despite the films. I did not know that. I'm not about to exhaustively go through the book to find specific terminology, i.e. who says what about orcs. Does anyone hear recall how Gandalf, or Tolkien, refer to the production of orcs? Or Elrond? Or anyone more knowledgeable than Mr. Samwise? ###### Reply-To: "Troels Forchhammer" From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 39 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 19:18:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.25.150.248 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1085944731 172.25.150.248 (Sun, 30 May 2004 22:18:51 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 22:18:51 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152747 in , Christopher Kreuzer enriched us with: > > Chris Wright wrote: > > [orc reproduction] > >> You, know, I think you've got to be constricted to the fact that >> Tolkien used the word "spawned > > I believe that word (spawned) is only used in the books by Sam. And by Gandalf, when he reached the rest of the Company after having spell-battled the Balrog at the Chamber of Mazarbul. However, the word is, IMO, irrelevant with regards to the reproduction of Orcs - Saruman might likewise have referred to "every Hobbit ever spawned" when he reached the Shire, and it would still mean nothing. The only evidence we have with respect to the reproductive habits of Orcs is the comment that they reproduce after the manner of the Children[1] (the Eruhíni) - Elves and Men, and we do know how these reproduce: it involves mother Elves (or Men) and father Elves (or Men) doing their thing, and after the appropriate time a new little Elf/Man/Peredhil is born. Since Orcs reproduce in the same way, it is inevitable that there are two genders among Orcs as among Elves and Men. [1] I don't recall where it's from - I think the reference is in the FAQ, though. -- Troels Forchhammer If no thought your mind does visit, make your speech not too explicit. - Piet Hein, /The Case for Obscurity/ ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 43 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 19:39:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1085945974 64.59.144.74 (Sun, 30 May 2004 13:39:34 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 13:39:34 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!167.206.3.103.MISMATCH!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152755 "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in message news:vsquc.17641$g4.340654@news2.nokia.com... > in , > Christopher Kreuzer enriched us with: > > > > Chris Wright wrote: > > > > [orc reproduction] > > > >> You, know, I think you've got to be constricted to the fact that > >> Tolkien used the word "spawned > > > > I believe that word (spawned) is only used in the books by Sam. > > And by Gandalf, when he reached the rest of the Company after having > spell-battled the Balrog at the Chamber of Mazarbul. > > However, the word is, IMO, irrelevant with regards to the reproduction of > Orcs - Saruman might likewise have referred to "every Hobbit ever > spawned" when he reached the Shire, and it would still mean nothing. > > The only evidence we have with respect to the reproductive habits of Orcs > is the comment that they reproduce after the manner of the Children[1] > (the Eruhíni) - Elves and Men, and we do know how these reproduce: it > involves mother Elves (or Men) and father Elves (or Men) doing their > thing, and after the appropriate time a new little Elf/Man/Peredhil is > born. Since Orcs reproduce in the same way, it is inevitable that there > are two genders among Orcs as among Elves and Men. It could, of course mean that the orcs have a somewhat ant-like society, with a Queen, a fat behemoth thing with no mobility and no free will, laying a disgusting number of eggs to be redistributed and otherwise tended for. Perhaps put into mud incubating chambers, vis a vis the Fellowship portrayal. Each distinguishable subset of orcs would have a different queen, most likely. If that were true, then another way to see to Sauron's defeat would be to send 'special ops forces', i.e. assassination squads, akin to ninjas, to take out as many of the Orc Queens as is humanly (or elvishly, or dwarvishly, or hobbitishly) possibly. =P ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 55 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <6Qquc.625499$oR5.300762@pd7tw3no> Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 19:44:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1085946242 64.59.144.74 (Sun, 30 May 2004 13:44:02 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 13:44:02 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!167.206.3.103.MISMATCH!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152758 "Chris Wright" wrote in message news:WLquc.629222$Ig.424830@pd7tw2no... > > "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in message > news:vsquc.17641$g4.340654@news2.nokia.com... > > in , > > Christopher Kreuzer enriched us with: > > > > > > Chris Wright wrote: > > > > > > [orc reproduction] > > > > > >> You, know, I think you've got to be constricted to the fact that > > >> Tolkien used the word "spawned > > > > > > I believe that word (spawned) is only used in the books by Sam. > > > > And by Gandalf, when he reached the rest of the Company after having > > spell-battled the Balrog at the Chamber of Mazarbul. > > > > However, the word is, IMO, irrelevant with regards to the reproduction of > > Orcs - Saruman might likewise have referred to "every Hobbit ever > > spawned" when he reached the Shire, and it would still mean nothing. > > > > The only evidence we have with respect to the reproductive habits of Orcs > > is the comment that they reproduce after the manner of the Children[1] > > (the Eruhíni) - Elves and Men, and we do know how these reproduce: it > > involves mother Elves (or Men) and father Elves (or Men) doing their > > thing, and after the appropriate time a new little Elf/Man/Peredhil is > > born. Since Orcs reproduce in the same way, it is inevitable that there > > are two genders among Orcs as among Elves and Men. > > It could, of course mean that the orcs have a somewhat ant-like society, > with a Queen, a fat behemoth thing with no mobility and no free will, laying > a disgusting number of eggs to be redistributed and otherwise tended for. > Perhaps put into mud incubating chambers, vis a vis the Fellowship > portrayal. Each distinguishable subset of orcs would have a different queen, > most likely. > > If that were true, then another way to see to Sauron's defeat would be to > send 'special ops forces', i.e. assassination squads, akin to ninjas, to > take out as many of the Orc Queens as is humanly (or elvishly, or > dwarvishly, or hobbitishly) possibly. =P At the end of the day though, you've gotta realize that Tolkien was advocating genocide against the orcish race, be it as it may that that race only originated with the willful and malicious corruption of Elves, by Sauron, or was it first done by Melkor? ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 01:53:55 +0300 Organization: Helsinki Television Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <6Qquc.625499$oR5.300762@pd7tw3no> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs181058186.pp.htv.fi X-Trace: nyytiset.pp.htv.fi 1085957641 11301 82.181.58.186 (30 May 2004 22:54:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@pp.htv.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 22:54:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!nyytiset.pp.htv.fi!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152797 "Chris Wright" kirjoitti viestissä:6Qquc.625499$oR5.300762@pd7tw3no... > At the end of the day though, you've gotta realize that Tolkien was > advocating genocide against the orcish race, be it as it may that that race > only originated with the willful and malicious corruption of Elves, by > Sauron, or was it first done by Melkor? You might like that to be true, but the real Tolkien advocated that Orcs should not be killed without reason, and surrendering Orcs should be treated humanely. Sorry. Morgil ###### From: "Shanahan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 19:05:23 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.153.86.46 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 1085958021 66.153.86.46 (Sun, 30 May 2004 23:00:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 23:00:21 GMT Organization: NTT/Verio Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer1.stngva01.us.to.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152799 > Chris Wright firmly declared: > You, know, I think you've got to be constricted to the fact that > Tolkien used the word "spawned", which is not really suggestive of > any possibility of "female" orcs, unless you are willing to > concede that perhaps Tolkien held a subtly cynical view of the > role and uses of women. Vis a vis the Eowyn character, it is clear > he does not. I think the use of "spawned" is just an insult, implying that Orcs are not only sub-human, but sub-mammalian. But remember, the Orcs "multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar." > I am more likely to imagine that there are incubating vessels of > some sort, where you have the conception of life, you have influx > of nutrients and neccessary compenents to life, but without much > else, how shall I put it, in the way of 'female' body parts. A > uterus, so to speak, with only minimal extraneous apparatus. Uh, are you talking about Tolkien, or Herbert's Bene Tleilax? - Ciaran S. --------------------------------------------------- Through Evernight he back was borne, on black and roaring waves that ran o'er leagues unlit, and foundered shores that drowned before the Days began ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <6Qquc.625499$oR5.300762@pd7tw3no> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 02:10:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1085969436 64.59.144.74 (Sun, 30 May 2004 20:10:36 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 20:10:36 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152857 "Morgil" wrote in message news:c9dom9$b15$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi... > > "Chris Wright" kirjoitti > viestissä:6Qquc.625499$oR5.300762@pd7tw3no... > > > At the end of the day though, you've gotta realize that Tolkien was > > advocating genocide against the orcish race, be it as it may that that > race > > only originated with the willful and malicious corruption of Elves, by > > Sauron, or was it first done by Melkor? > > You might like that to be true, but the real Tolkien > advocated that Orcs should not be killed without reason, > and surrendering Orcs should be treated humanely. Sorry. I admire him for including that statement then. ###### From: "Shanahan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 19:11:38 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.153.86.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 1085959149 66.153.86.29 (Sun, 30 May 2004 23:19:09 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 23:19:09 GMT Organization: NTT/Verio Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newspeer1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152803 > Chris Wright firmly declared: >> "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in message >>> Christopher Kreuzer enriched us with: >>>> Chris Wright wrote: >>> >>> [orc reproduction] >>> >>>> You, know, I think you've got to be constricted to the fact that >>>> Tolkien used the word "spawned >>> >>> I believe that word (spawned) is only used in the books by Sam. >> >> And by Gandalf, when he reached the rest of the Company after >> having spell-battled the Balrog at the Chamber of Mazarbul. > It could, of course mean that the orcs have a somewhat ant-like > society, with a Queen, a fat behemoth thing with no mobility and > no free will, laying a disgusting number of eggs to be > redistributed and otherwise tended for. Perhaps put into mud Nope, you're still mixing up the Tleilaxu and Tolkien. - Ciaran S. --------------------------------------------------- Through Evernight he back was borne, on black and roaring waves that ran o'er leagues unlit, and foundered shores that drowned before the Days began ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 02:11:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1085969507 64.59.144.74 (Sun, 30 May 2004 20:11:47 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 20:11:47 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152858 "Shanahan" wrote in message news:NZtuc.802$ri.64267@dfw-read.news.verio.net... > > Chris Wright firmly declared: > >> "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in message > >>> Christopher Kreuzer enriched us with: > >>>> Chris Wright wrote: > >>> > >>> [orc reproduction] > >>> > >>>> You, know, I think you've got to be constricted to the fact that > >>>> Tolkien used the word "spawned > >>> > >>> I believe that word (spawned) is only used in the books by Sam. > >> > >> And by Gandalf, when he reached the rest of the Company after > >> having spell-battled the Balrog at the Chamber of Mazarbul. > > > It could, of course mean that the orcs have a somewhat ant-like > > society, with a Queen, a fat behemoth thing with no mobility and > > no free will, laying a disgusting number of eggs to be > > redistributed and otherwise tended for. Perhaps put into mud > > Nope, you're still mixing up the Tleilaxu and Tolkien. Well perhaps you can suggest a more viable alternative, a way that sees huge hordes of Orcs bred, with the kind of explosive population growth neccessary to catch Gondor unprepared. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 02:12:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1085969576 64.59.144.74 (Sun, 30 May 2004 20:12:56 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 20:12:56 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!napean.nntp.kabelfoon.nl!83.128.0.10.MISMATCH!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!xindi.nntp.kabelfoon.nl!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152859 "Shanahan" wrote in message news:9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net... > > Chris Wright firmly declared: > > > You, know, I think you've got to be constricted to the fact that > > Tolkien used the word "spawned", which is not really suggestive of > > any possibility of "female" orcs, unless you are willing to > > concede that perhaps Tolkien held a subtly cynical view of the > > role and uses of women. Vis a vis the Eowyn character, it is clear > > he does not. > > I think the use of "spawned" is just an insult, implying that Orcs > are not only sub-human, but sub-mammalian. But remember, the Orcs > "multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar." > > > I am more likely to imagine that there are incubating vessels of > > some sort, where you have the conception of life, you have influx > > of nutrients and neccessary compenents to life, but without much > > else, how shall I put it, in the way of 'female' body parts. A > > uterus, so to speak, with only minimal extraneous apparatus. > > Uh, are you talking about Tolkien, or Herbert's Bene Tleilax? I haven't read Herbert. Don't care much for speculative science fiction. Much prefer mythically-themed fantasy. ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: 31 May 2004 03:32:53 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de RPNoZfDUyWG8EJ8C3YLujAwF4lokw0UWn53G5D6zWo1RtgIG4H User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!feed.news.tiscali.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152886 On Mon, 31 May 2004 02:12:56 GMT, Chris Wright wrote: > > "Shanahan" wrote in message > news:9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net... >> > Chris Wright firmly declared: >> >> > You, know, I think you've got to be constricted to the fact that >> > Tolkien used the word "spawned", which is not really suggestive of >> > any possibility of "female" orcs, unless you are willing to >> > concede that perhaps Tolkien held a subtly cynical view of the >> > role and uses of women. Vis a vis the Eowyn character, it is clear >> > he does not. >> >> I think the use of "spawned" is just an insult, implying that Orcs >> are not only sub-human, but sub-mammalian. But remember, the Orcs >> "multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar." >> >> > I am more likely to imagine that there are incubating vessels of >> > some sort, where you have the conception of life, you have influx >> > of nutrients and neccessary compenents to life, but without much >> > else, how shall I put it, in the way of 'female' body parts. A >> > uterus, so to speak, with only minimal extraneous apparatus. >> >> Uh, are you talking about Tolkien, or Herbert's Bene Tleilax? > > I haven't read Herbert. Don't care much for speculative science fiction. > Much prefer mythically-themed fantasy. Good thing. I would hate to think what you would try to do about Duncan Idaho's death. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 03:43:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1085975029 64.59.144.74 (Sun, 30 May 2004 21:43:49 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 21:43:49 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!ecngs!feeder2.ecngs.de!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152893 "AC" wrote in message news:slrncbl9r5.358.mightymartianca@alder.alberni.net... > On Mon, 31 May 2004 02:12:56 GMT, > Chris Wright wrote: > > > > "Shanahan" wrote in message > > news:9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net... > >> > Chris Wright firmly declared: > >> > >> > You, know, I think you've got to be constricted to the fact that > >> > Tolkien used the word "spawned", which is not really suggestive of > >> > any possibility of "female" orcs, unless you are willing to > >> > concede that perhaps Tolkien held a subtly cynical view of the > >> > role and uses of women. Vis a vis the Eowyn character, it is clear > >> > he does not. > >> > >> I think the use of "spawned" is just an insult, implying that Orcs > >> are not only sub-human, but sub-mammalian. But remember, the Orcs > >> "multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar." > >> > >> > I am more likely to imagine that there are incubating vessels of > >> > some sort, where you have the conception of life, you have influx > >> > of nutrients and neccessary compenents to life, but without much > >> > else, how shall I put it, in the way of 'female' body parts. A > >> > uterus, so to speak, with only minimal extraneous apparatus. > >> > >> Uh, are you talking about Tolkien, or Herbert's Bene Tleilax? > > > > I haven't read Herbert. Don't care much for speculative science fiction. > > Much prefer mythically-themed fantasy. > > Good thing. I would hate to think what you would try to do about Duncan > Idaho's death. Care to explain, please? What were the circumstances of Duncan Idaho's death. praytell? ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: 31 May 2004 04:20:11 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de LreFxK8yXrv7Vs5DpBT8xwRG/DF+km9KBedOlHGoi5nUeCcSLT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!feed.news.tiscali.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152904 On Mon, 31 May 2004 03:43:49 GMT, Chris Wright wrote: > > "AC" wrote in message > news:slrncbl9r5.358.mightymartianca@alder.alberni.net... >> On Mon, 31 May 2004 02:12:56 GMT, >> Chris Wright wrote: >> > >> > "Shanahan" wrote in message >> > news:9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net... >> >> > Chris Wright firmly declared: >> >> >> >> > You, know, I think you've got to be constricted to the fact that >> >> > Tolkien used the word "spawned", which is not really suggestive of >> >> > any possibility of "female" orcs, unless you are willing to >> >> > concede that perhaps Tolkien held a subtly cynical view of the >> >> > role and uses of women. Vis a vis the Eowyn character, it is clear >> >> > he does not. >> >> >> >> I think the use of "spawned" is just an insult, implying that Orcs >> >> are not only sub-human, but sub-mammalian. But remember, the Orcs >> >> "multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar." >> >> >> >> > I am more likely to imagine that there are incubating vessels of >> >> > some sort, where you have the conception of life, you have influx >> >> > of nutrients and neccessary compenents to life, but without much >> >> > else, how shall I put it, in the way of 'female' body parts. A >> >> > uterus, so to speak, with only minimal extraneous apparatus. >> >> >> >> Uh, are you talking about Tolkien, or Herbert's Bene Tleilax? >> > >> > I haven't read Herbert. Don't care much for speculative science fiction. >> > Much prefer mythically-themed fantasy. >> >> Good thing. I would hate to think what you would try to do about Duncan >> Idaho's death. > > Care to explain, please? What were the circumstances of Duncan Idaho's > death. praytell? He died quite early on in the first Dune book, though, he like Boromir, was a warrior of great renown. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 52 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 05:57:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1085983065 64.59.144.74 (Sun, 30 May 2004 23:57:45 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 23:57:45 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152913 "AC" wrote in message news:slrncblcjr.38s.mightymartianca@alder.alberni.net... > On Mon, 31 May 2004 03:43:49 GMT, > Chris Wright wrote: > > > > "AC" wrote in message > > news:slrncbl9r5.358.mightymartianca@alder.alberni.net... > >> On Mon, 31 May 2004 02:12:56 GMT, > >> Chris Wright wrote: > >> > > >> > "Shanahan" wrote in message > >> > news:9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net... > >> >> > Chris Wright firmly declared: > >> >> > >> >> > You, know, I think you've got to be constricted to the fact that > >> >> > Tolkien used the word "spawned", which is not really suggestive of > >> >> > any possibility of "female" orcs, unless you are willing to > >> >> > concede that perhaps Tolkien held a subtly cynical view of the > >> >> > role and uses of women. Vis a vis the Eowyn character, it is clear > >> >> > he does not. > >> >> > >> >> I think the use of "spawned" is just an insult, implying that Orcs > >> >> are not only sub-human, but sub-mammalian. But remember, the Orcs > >> >> "multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar." > >> >> > >> >> > I am more likely to imagine that there are incubating vessels of > >> >> > some sort, where you have the conception of life, you have influx > >> >> > of nutrients and neccessary compenents to life, but without much > >> >> > else, how shall I put it, in the way of 'female' body parts. A > >> >> > uterus, so to speak, with only minimal extraneous apparatus. > >> >> > >> >> Uh, are you talking about Tolkien, or Herbert's Bene Tleilax? > >> > > >> > I haven't read Herbert. Don't care much for speculative science fiction. > >> > Much prefer mythically-themed fantasy. > >> > >> Good thing. I would hate to think what you would try to do about Duncan > >> Idaho's death. > > > > Care to explain, please? What were the circumstances of Duncan Idaho's > > death. praytell? > > He died quite early on in the first Dune book, though, he like Boromir, was > a warrior of great renown. But was he also a warrior of great honesty and integrity? ###### From: Michelle J. Haines Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> Reply-To: mhaines@io.nanc.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 Lines: 24 Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 08:24:49 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 148.63.111.21 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1086013366 148.63.111.21 (Mon, 31 May 2004 09:22:46 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 09:22:46 CDT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!ply1.onvoy!onvoy.com!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152991 In article , cjwright79@shaw.ca says... > > "AC" wrote in message > > > He died quite early on in the first Dune book, though, he like Boromir, > > was a warrior of great renown. > > But was he also a warrior of great honesty and integrity? Yes. Also, they kept resurrecting the poor guy for hundreds of years. Michelle Flutist -- Drift on a river, That flows through my arms Drift as I'm singing to you I see you smiling, So peaceful and calm And holding you, I'm smiling, too Here in my arms, Safe from all harm Holding you, I'm smiling, too -- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99] ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: 31 May 2004 20:29:03 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 87 Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de sj2gAl24t0199o9q9ekJCw0EZul26a1Vo1N4tIyB/Ommu4x0th User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153060 On Mon, 31 May 2004 05:57:45 GMT, Chris Wright wrote: > > "AC" wrote in message > news:slrncblcjr.38s.mightymartianca@alder.alberni.net... >> On Mon, 31 May 2004 03:43:49 GMT, >> Chris Wright wrote: >> > >> > "AC" wrote in message >> > news:slrncbl9r5.358.mightymartianca@alder.alberni.net... >> >> On Mon, 31 May 2004 02:12:56 GMT, >> >> Chris Wright wrote: >> >> > >> >> > "Shanahan" wrote in message >> >> > news:9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net... >> >> >> > Chris Wright firmly declared: >> >> >> >> >> >> > You, know, I think you've got to be constricted to the fact that >> >> >> > Tolkien used the word "spawned", which is not really suggestive of >> >> >> > any possibility of "female" orcs, unless you are willing to >> >> >> > concede that perhaps Tolkien held a subtly cynical view of the >> >> >> > role and uses of women. Vis a vis the Eowyn character, it is clear >> >> >> > he does not. >> >> >> >> >> >> I think the use of "spawned" is just an insult, implying that Orcs >> >> >> are not only sub-human, but sub-mammalian. But remember, the Orcs >> >> >> "multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar." >> >> >> >> >> >> > I am more likely to imagine that there are incubating vessels of >> >> >> > some sort, where you have the conception of life, you have influx >> >> >> > of nutrients and neccessary compenents to life, but without much >> >> >> > else, how shall I put it, in the way of 'female' body parts. A >> >> >> > uterus, so to speak, with only minimal extraneous apparatus. >> >> >> >> >> >> Uh, are you talking about Tolkien, or Herbert's Bene Tleilax? >> >> > >> >> > I haven't read Herbert. Don't care much for speculative science > fiction. >> >> > Much prefer mythically-themed fantasy. >> >> >> >> Good thing. I would hate to think what you would try to do about > Duncan >> >> Idaho's death. >> > >> > Care to explain, please? What were the circumstances of Duncan Idaho's >> > death. praytell? >> >> He died quite early on in the first Dune book, though, he like Boromir, > was >> a warrior of great renown. > > But was he also a warrior of great honesty and integrity? I saw no great honesty or integrity in Boromir. Integrity would have meant not trying to steal the Ring from Frodo. That is not the act of an honest man, but of an obsessed one, who cares nothing for consequences. He, like Denethor, was mainly concerned with his own little corner of the world and with his fame therein. It was Faramir, like Aragorn, who realized that the larger battle was the defeat of Sauron, and not the maintenance of a corroded kingdom. Boromir, unlike Denethor, realized his error in the end, and I'll give him credit for that, at least. He was no hero when he tried to steal by force what was not rightfully his. He had been told that the Ring would pervert any who held it, and that to ultimately defeat Sauron would take someone of great personal power. Gandalf also tells Denethor that if Boromir had taken the Ring and returned to Minas Tirith, that he would not have known his own son. And before you start asserting your own version of LotR in here or claiming that you know better than JRRT, as you so often do, as if anyone besides yourself should even give a damn about your private musings, this is the book JRRT wrote. The Ring was a corruptor, it's power came at an incredible price, and certainly for a mortal, victory would lead to an ultimately terrible defeat. Boromir would have been no great hero among Men, but a wraith tyrant, invisible, terrible and evil. I'll gladly put aside any arguments we've had in the past, Chris, but only if you refrain from pushing your own version of the book, which resembles the actual book written by one John Ronald Reuel Tolkien (born 1892, died 1973) in no significant detail after the final chapter of FotR and differs substantially even in basic makeup. I'll only debate you on what is written in LotR, not on what you think should be written. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 20:52:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1086036754 64.59.144.74 (Mon, 31 May 2004 14:52:34 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:52:34 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153075 "Michelle J. Haines" wrote in message news:MPG.1b24ee1af305f99798a4d1@news.Qwest.net... > In article , cjwright79@shaw.ca > says... > > > > "AC" wrote in message > > > > > He died quite early on in the first Dune book, though, he like Boromir, > > > was a warrior of great renown. > > > > But was he also a warrior of great honesty and integrity? > > Yes. Also, they kept resurrecting the poor guy for hundreds of > years. > LOL... was he a juju zombie of sorts then? How did he feel about his own resurrection? ###### From: AC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: 31 May 2004 21:02:16 GMT Organization: The Tao of Cow Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> Reply-To: mightymartianca@hotmail.com X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 7Unkjcho6/8UHMsgkjYUzw7jlmbHiq8Cez7mtf4vZDgjLxikeR User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (CYGWIN_NT-5.0) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153078 On Mon, 31 May 2004 20:52:34 GMT, Chris Wright wrote: > > "Michelle J. Haines" wrote in message > news:MPG.1b24ee1af305f99798a4d1@news.Qwest.net... >> In article , cjwright79@shaw.ca >> says... >> > >> > "AC" wrote in message >> > >> > > He died quite early on in the first Dune book, though, he like > Boromir, >> > > was a warrior of great renown. >> > >> > But was he also a warrior of great honesty and integrity? >> >> Yes. Also, they kept resurrecting the poor guy for hundreds of >> years. >> > > LOL... was he a juju zombie of sorts then? How did he feel about his own > resurrection? Sometimes he was thrilled. Other times... not so much. -- Aaron Clausen mightymartianca@hotmail.com ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 04:22:49 -0500 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 02:26:28 -0700 Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> <7PWuc.600647$Pk3.414443@pd7tw1no> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 57 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-Ap1bWrjh6U7IupBDAKtk+JWTYowYxhw2yha/LGXYA5to5bq9xQXtjBeF1I/Py5auziyr4Xy9u1p64Sq!a+OqUXFDDZA7skIppwr1MCUEXGXHAs26r8NYv23TAqSWLUL7ky9fpjP19T1SIBn4A4vGRsWAAgxX!BiCs/mE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153203 In article <7PWuc.600647$Pk3.414443@pd7tw1no>, cjwright79@shaw.ca says... > > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message > news:iGNuc.772$LE1.6234364@news-text.cableinet.net... > > Chris Wright wrote: > > > > > Predicated on the notion that Boromir's trust in his own willpower was > > > unfounded. But who's to say that Boromir would have been corrupted by > > > the Ring? > > > > You fell right into this trap! :-) > > > > "What have I said? What have I done? Frodo, Frodo! Come back! A madness > > took me but it has passed. Come back!" > > > > "He ... walked towards them without speaking. His face looked grim and > > sad." > > > > "He put his head in his hands, and sat as if bowed with grief." > > > > I read this as Boromir realising that he had succumbed to the lure of > > the Ring and recognising that this was the 'madness' that took him. I > > shudder to think what you think these passages mean, though I sure it > > will be 'interesting'. > > I think you need to be aware of the phenomenon known as "retrospective > thinking". He's tried and failed to secure the Ring, and that state of > profuse apology is his only way of coming to terms with his attempt at > taking the Ring, unless he's willing to admit that he's not as noble as he > might have previously thought. > > Also, once he's tried and failed to secure the Ring, the only chance he has > of getting a second chance, now that he knows it turns its' wearer > invisible, is to make Frodo believe that he's genuinely sorry and would > never do such a thing again. Though he might well betray Frodo's trust > again, and in doing so be acting rather deceptively, you have to weigh that > against the threat of Mordor, felt in a very real way, by Boromir's people. > So, Boromir the Deceiver, similar to Sauron the Deceiver. Very clever, very > clever indeed Mr. Tolkien. But I'm afraid that you have to consider prior > motives. Sauron's motives were to effect his coming to power. Sauron's motives were to ensure order and stability. > Boromir's > motives were to protect and better his own people. That's a world of > difference. > > > -- Tar-Elenion He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> <7PWuc.600647$Pk3.414443@pd7tw1no> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 74 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 10:38:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1086086287 64.59.144.74 (Tue, 01 Jun 2004 04:38:07 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 04:38:07 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!167.206.3.103.MISMATCH!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153214 "Tar-Elenion" wrote in message news:MPG.1b25eb9da795fe398972d@news.comcast.giganews.com... > In article <7PWuc.600647$Pk3.414443@pd7tw1no>, cjwright79@shaw.ca > says... > > > > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message > > news:iGNuc.772$LE1.6234364@news-text.cableinet.net... > > > Chris Wright wrote: > > > > > > > Predicated on the notion that Boromir's trust in his own willpower was > > > > unfounded. But who's to say that Boromir would have been corrupted by > > > > the Ring? > > > > > > You fell right into this trap! :-) > > > > > > "What have I said? What have I done? Frodo, Frodo! Come back! A madness > > > took me but it has passed. Come back!" > > > > > > "He ... walked towards them without speaking. His face looked grim and > > > sad." > > > > > > "He put his head in his hands, and sat as if bowed with grief." > > > > > > I read this as Boromir realising that he had succumbed to the lure of > > > the Ring and recognising that this was the 'madness' that took him. I > > > shudder to think what you think these passages mean, though I sure it > > > will be 'interesting'. > > > > I think you need to be aware of the phenomenon known as "retrospective > > thinking". He's tried and failed to secure the Ring, and that state of > > profuse apology is his only way of coming to terms with his attempt at > > taking the Ring, unless he's willing to admit that he's not as noble as he > > might have previously thought. > > > > Also, once he's tried and failed to secure the Ring, the only chance he has > > of getting a second chance, now that he knows it turns its' wearer > > invisible, is to make Frodo believe that he's genuinely sorry and would > > never do such a thing again. Though he might well betray Frodo's trust > > again, and in doing so be acting rather deceptively, you have to weigh that > > against the threat of Mordor, felt in a very real way, by Boromir's people. > > So, Boromir the Deceiver, similar to Sauron the Deceiver. Very clever, very > > clever indeed Mr. Tolkien. But I'm afraid that you have to consider prior > > motives. Sauron's motives were to effect his coming to power. > > Sauron's motives were to ensure order and stability. > > > Boromir's > > motives were to protect and better his own people. That's a world of > > difference. Boromir's motives were to prevent pain and suffering, the death and ruination of Gondor, then. I don't see how wanting to end conflict and struggle is tantamount, in any way shape or form, to wanting to ensure order and stability. One is to relieve a state of suffering, the other is to achieve an aesthetic ideal. I would also point something about that moniker that is given Sauron. Sauron the Deceiver. So called by the likes of Aragorn, a ranger who uses multiples aliases. Elessar. Strider. It's as though Tolkien is positing deception as the cardinal sin, then plainly ignoring instances where our putative heroes deceive one another, as well as the forces of Mordor. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 06:20:09 -0500 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 04:23:48 -0700 Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> <7PWuc.600647$Pk3.414443@pd7tw1no> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-9h0swNHf6OCvEIdru1mVF1eeBSm+QE+IMiXGKM0hl/Mb3+n8rb0sgdgpSPrBtokRocESEiWaD1vaioT!VWpatddoQDdhxlk1BtKY1fB2fKQxg0GzmBQqWbN0+lh7SJhn53irGGZeKd8e5t34F/Jd4hJU2UzO!0B49ra7X X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153218 In article , cjwright79@shaw.ca says... > > "Tar-Elenion" wrote in message > news:MPG.1b25eb9da795fe398972d@news.comcast.giganews.com... > > In article <7PWuc.600647$Pk3.414443@pd7tw1no>, cjwright79@shaw.ca > > says... > > > Sauron's motives were to effect his coming to power. > > > > Sauron's motives were to ensure order and stability. > > of stuff I did not address> Try responding to what I posted regarding your statement. The above should make it clear. Then we might continue. -- Tar-Elenion He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 19:08:42 +0300 Organization: Helsinki Television Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> <7PWuc.600647$Pk3.414443@pd7tw1no> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs181058186.pp.htv.fi X-Trace: nyytiset.pp.htv.fi 1086106128 18002 82.181.58.186 (1 Jun 2004 16:08:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@pp.htv.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 16:08:48 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!news100.image.dk!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!nyytiset.pp.htv.fi!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153244 "Chris Wright" kirjoitti viestissä:j0Zuc.636069$oR5.361213@pd7tw3no... > I would also point something about that moniker that is given Sauron. Sauron > the Deceiver. So called by the likes of Aragorn, a ranger who uses multiples > aliases. Elessar. Strider. It's as though Tolkien is positing deception as > the cardinal sin, then plainly ignoring instances where our putative heroes > deceive one another, as well as the forces of Mordor. Because there are no such instances. Going ingognito is not the same as pretending to be somebody or something else then what you are, like Sauron did when calling himself Annatar. Wherever Aragorn went he never tried to hide the two basic facts - he was an Enemy of Sauron and he did not want to reveal his true identity. Nothing decieving in that. Also he did not choose aliases. People gave him names according to how they saw him - Strider, Thorongil, Estel, and he accepted them. You notice he never says "my name is Strider" but "I'm called Strider". He never lies about his identity or try to decieve people. Morgil ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> <7PWuc.600647$Pk3.414443@pd7tw1no> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 19:00:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1086116437 64.59.144.74 (Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:00:37 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:00:37 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153270 "Morgil" wrote in message news:c9i9mg$hii$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi... > > "Chris Wright" kirjoitti > viestissä:j0Zuc.636069$oR5.361213@pd7tw3no... > > > I would also point something about that moniker that is given Sauron. > Sauron > > the Deceiver. So called by the likes of Aragorn, a ranger who uses > multiples > > aliases. Elessar. Strider. It's as though Tolkien is positing deception as > > the cardinal sin, then plainly ignoring instances where our putative > heroes > > deceive one another, as well as the forces of Mordor. > > Because there are no such instances. Going ingognito is > not the same as pretending to be somebody or something > else then what you are, like Sauron did when calling himself > Annatar. Wherever Aragorn went he never tried to hide the > two basic facts - he was an Enemy of Sauron and he did > not want to reveal his true identity. Nothing decieving in that. > Also he did not choose aliases. People gave him names according > to how they saw him - Strider, Thorongil, Estel, and he accepted > them. You notice he never says "my name is Strider" but "I'm > called Strider". He never lies about his identity or try to decieve people. Rather elaborate justification of the fact that Aragorn did in fact deceive people on a regular basis. ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:35:36 +0300 Organization: Helsinki Television Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> <7PWuc.600647$Pk3.414443@pd7tw1no> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs181058186.pp.htv.fi X-Trace: nyytiset.pp.htv.fi 1086118536 613 82.181.58.186 (1 Jun 2004 19:35:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@pp.htv.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 19:35:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!nyytiset.pp.htv.fi!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153295 "Chris Wright" kirjoitti viestissä:pn4vc.638975$oR5.177802@pd7tw3no... > Rather elaborate justification of the fact that Aragorn did in fact deceive > people on a regular basis. So you would say about half of the regulars in this newsgroup are decievers too, since we use aliases? That does not sound like a troll at all... *Morgil* ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> <9Ituc.801$ri.64161@dfw-read.news.verio.net> <7PWuc.600647$Pk3.414443@pd7tw1no> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 22:03:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.59.144.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1086127408 64.59.144.74 (Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:03:28 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:03:28 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:153338 "Morgil" wrote in message news:c9ilq8$j5$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi... > > "Chris Wright" kirjoitti > viestissä:pn4vc.638975$oR5.177802@pd7tw3no... > > > Rather elaborate justification of the fact that Aragorn did in fact > deceive > > people on a regular basis. > > So you would say about half of the regulars in this newsgroup > are decievers too, since we use aliases? That does not sound > like a troll at all... I would only point out that I use my real name, because I have no fear of being tracked down and harrassed because of my suggestions. =P ###### From: "JonnyBoy Greaves" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40b25ba3.29685485@news.compuserve.com> <0ojab0tvljavmik1c30bgmqp7ipoffk0g1@4ax.com> <40b6480b.199271617@news.compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Orc Females and Children Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 15:37:44 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.0.82.108 X-Complaints-To: http://www.ntlworld.com/netreport X-Trace: newsfe5-win 1086449867 80.0.82.108 (Sat, 05 Jun 2004 11:37:47 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 11:37:47 EDT Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsrout1.ntli.net!news-in.ntli.net!newspeer1-win.server.ntli.net!newsfe5-win.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:154183 "The American" wrote in message news:LuadnUlPd4acyirdRVn-sQ@conversent.net... > > "Chris Wright" wrote in message > news:m2Htc.611883$Ig.494469@pd7tw2no... > > > > [snip some silly stuff] > > > > > Or, maybe Gandalf is just lying, by essentially saying that the best > thing > > you could ever hope to do for an orc would be to kill it. A manifestation > of > > racial intolerence, so to speak. So in that sense, perhaps Tolkien *was* a > > bit of a racist, though the species he was racist against did not and does > > not, of course, in fact, exist. > > > > I'm starting to find your posts amusing now. > Though I'm not sure others have caught on yet. > :o) > > > T.A. > > I find them hilarious. Then I think to myself, 'well, perhaps he's about 12, or he's mentally impared', which makes me feel a bit guilty. Although I'm still laughing secretly. =P