Message-ID: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 22:47:01 +0100 Organization: Angband, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 2004 21:46:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 81-86-165-234.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1085262360 news-text.dial.pipex.com 20513 81.86.165.234:15016 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.netcologne.de!nhp.netcologne.de!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!napean.nntp.kabelfoon.nl!83.128.0.10.MISMATCH!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!xindi.nntp.kabelfoon.nl!195.129.110.21.MISMATCH!bnewsfeed00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsinpeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151690 Hello -- It is written in the prologue of the Lord Of The Rings (paperback, single volume, 1995 edition, published by Harper Collins) that when Celeborn finally passed into the West, he took with him "the last living memory of the Elder days in Middle Earth". What about Glorfindel and Cirdan? What about Gildor Inglorion, who describes himself and his host as "Exiles" - clearly they are Noldorin Elves who fled Valinor. Best, -- Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: 22 May 2004 22:49:13 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 19 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pacific.cse.msu.edu X-AUTHid: wagners5 User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.9 (sun4u)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151698 In rec.arts.books.tolkien Ancalagon The Black wrote: : Hello -- : It is written in the prologue of the Lord Of The Rings (paperback, single : volume, 1995 edition, published by Harper Collins) that when Celeborn finally : passed into the West, he took with him "the last living memory of the Elder : days in Middle Earth". : What about Glorfindel and Cirdan? What about Gildor Inglorion, who describes : himself and his host as "Exiles" - clearly they are Noldorin Elves who fled : Valinor. According to the prologue, Celeborn was the last Elf to leave who remembered the First Age. Glorfindel and Gildor left Middle-earth before Celeborn did. Gildor left with Elrond, Galadriel, Frodo and Gandalf. When exactly Cirdan left is never made clear. If the prologue is correct then Cirdan also left before Celeborn. Stephen ###### Message-ID: <40aff018$0$25329$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 01:29:09 +0100 References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> Organization: Angband, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 May 2004 00:28:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 81-86-165-234.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1085272089 news-text.dial.pipex.com 25329 81.86.165.234:15337 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!news-peer1!btnet!zen.net.uk!demorgan.zen.co.uk!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!napean.nntp.kabelfoon.nl!83.128.0.10.MISMATCH!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!xindi.nntp.kabelfoon.nl!195.129.110.21.MISMATCH!bnewsfeed00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsinpeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151716 stephen@nomail.com wrote: > According to the prologue, Celeborn was the last Elf to leave who remembered > the First Age. Glorfindel and Gildor left Middle-earth before Celeborn did. > Gildor left with Elrond, Galadriel, Frodo and Gandalf. When exactly Cirdan > left > is never made clear. If the prologue is correct then Cirdan also left before > Celeborn. > > Stephen That doesn't quite make sense. Cirdan is often quoted as saying that he will "remain by these grey shores, until the last ship sets sail...". At the earliest he would have to go *with* Celeborn, not before him. Am I making sense? Best, -- Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 00:59:24 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial81-135-137-25.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: hercules.btinternet.com 1085273964 17308 81.135.137.25 (23 May 2004 00:59:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 00:59:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!news-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151719 wrote in message news:c8old9$2bdc$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu... > In rec.arts.books.tolkien Ancalagon The Black wrote: > : Hello -- > > : It is written in the prologue of the Lord Of The Rings (paperback, single > : volume, 1995 edition, published by Harper Collins) that when Celeborn finally > : passed into the West, he took with him "the last living memory of the Elder > : days in Middle Earth". > > : What about Glorfindel and Cirdan? What about Gildor Inglorion, who describes > : himself and his host as "Exiles" - clearly they are Noldorin Elves who fled > : Valinor. > > According to the prologue, Celeborn was the last Elf to leave who remembered > the First Age. Glorfindel and Gildor left Middle-earth before Celeborn did. > Gildor left with Elrond, Galadriel, Frodo and Gandalf. When exactly Cirdan left > is never made clear. If the prologue is correct then Cirdan also left before > Celeborn. > > Stephen hmm... It says that Celeborn grew weary of his realm and after a few years left to dwell with the sons of Elrond (it is still not settled as to whether they are now mortal or not). We must presume that place is Rivendell. However, we know from the end of the tale of A&A, that when Aragorn is on his death bed (FA 120), he makes mention of 'the garden of rivendell, where none now walk', implying that Rivendell is deserted by this time. So we can probably assume then that Celeborn (and maybe even the sons of Elrond if they are still immortal) have left by 120FA, which implies that Cirdan and Glorfindal have gone as well (due to the 'last living memory' statement). IMO it makes sense for the three of them to leave at the same time. Of course, we will never know for sure, but the small references given above at least point to one likely scenario. Regards, Douglas ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: 23 May 2004 03:50:49 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 23 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> <40aff018$0$25329$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pacific.cse.msu.edu X-AUTHid: wagners5 User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.9 (sun4u)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151728 In rec.arts.books.tolkien Ancalagon The Black wrote: : stephen@nomail.com wrote: :> According to the prologue, Celeborn was the last Elf to leave who remembered :> the First Age. Glorfindel and Gildor left Middle-earth before Celeborn did. :> Gildor left with Elrond, Galadriel, Frodo and Gandalf. When exactly Cirdan :> left :> is never made clear. If the prologue is correct then Cirdan also left before :> Celeborn. :> :> Stephen : That doesn't quite make sense. Cirdan is often quoted as saying that he will : "remain by these grey shores, until the last ship sets sail...". At the : earliest he would have to go *with* Celeborn, not before him. Am I making : sense? As I said, when Cirdan left is never made clear, and the evidence is somewhat contradictory. There are many statements about him remaining until the last ship sails, but there is also evidence that he left with Elrond and the gang, and that others left after him. Stephen ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 09:59:56 +0300 Organization: Helsinki Television Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> <40aff018$0$25329$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs181058186.pp.htv.fi X-Trace: nyytiset.pp.htv.fi 1085295602 3662 82.181.58.186 (23 May 2004 07:00:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@pp.htv.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 07:00:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!nyytiset.pp.htv.fi!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151732 kirjoitti viestissä:c8p72p$2q9m$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... > In rec.arts.books.tolkien Ancalagon The Black wrote: > : stephen@nomail.com wrote: > : That doesn't quite make sense. Cirdan is often quoted as saying that he will > : "remain by these grey shores, until the last ship sets sail...". At the > : earliest he would have to go *with* Celeborn, not before him. Am I making > : sense? > > As I said, when Cirdan left is never made clear, and the evidence is > somewhat contradictory. There are many statements about him remaining until > the last ship sails, but there is also evidence that he left with Elrond > and the gang, and that others left after him. The Last Ship which Cirdan talked about must have been the one with the Ringbearers, and he went along them. It was the Last scheduled ride for High Elves out from Middle-Earth. Those who wanted to travel afterwards had to make their own arrangements, but that wasn't Cirdan's concern anymore. Otherwise it would have meant that he would have to wait until the very last Elf in Middle-Earth had either left or vanished. And that just doen't make any sense. Hence, there was the last ship and the ones after it. Morgil ###### From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 11:46:32 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> <40aff018$0$25329$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-9-209.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: hercules.btinternet.com 1085312792 1763 213.122.9.209 (23 May 2004 11:46:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 11:46:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!dedekind.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!demorgan.zen.co.uk!194.72.9.35.MISMATCH!news-peer1!news-peer0-test!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151741 "Morgil" wrote in message news:c8pi5i$3ie$2@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi... > The Last Ship which Cirdan talked about must have been > the one with the Ringbearers, and he went along them. > It was the Last scheduled ride for High Elves out from > Middle-Earth. Those who wanted to travel afterwards > had to make their own arrangements, but that wasn't > Cirdan's concern anymore. Otherwise it would have > meant that he would have to wait until the very last Elf > in Middle-Earth had either left or vanished. And that just > doen't make any sense. Hence, there was the last ship > and the ones after it. > > Morgil I agree. Although it is never made explicit when Cirdan leaves, it DOES make the most sense that he left with the ring bearers. That ship at the end of the book comes across as special, it certainly doesnt strike me as 'just another ship'. As Morgil says, there is the Last Ship, and then there are other ships. Cirdan would leave with the Last Ship. Although some people have interpreted his words to say that he would wait for every elf who wanted to go, this idea comes across as daft when looked at in detail. They are perfectly capable of making their own arrangements, as we have seen, and I'm sure Cirdan would get pretty pi**ed off with hanging around the Grey Havens for years waiting for people while many an elf sails off without his assistance! Glorfindal and Celeborn would have made their own arangements, just as Legolas did. Sure, they would probably go to the Grey Havans, or they might leave fom the Anduin, as Legolas does. As I said in my earlier post, I usually take Aragorn's comment in the tale of A&A about the gardens of Rivendell 'where none now walk' as reference to the fact that Rivindell is deserted by this time (FA120), suggesting that Celeborn (and therefor Glorfindal) left sometime before this (as he went to live in Rivendell a few years after the end of the 3rd age). Douglas ###### From: Naryldor Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: 23 May 2004 12:50:40 GMT Organization: Mi casa Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de B49C2uUx8QcA+XExehVYSQqOjDRRRr8K/zCy39epXWb4jPVRtk User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151748 "Douglas Eckhart" wrote in news:c8ot1c$gss$1@hercules.btinternet.com: > It says that Celeborn grew weary of his realm and after a few years > left to dwell with the sons of Elrond (it is still not settled as to > whether they are now mortal or not). That is another matter that isn't very clear is it? My guess (a completely unfounded by any book reference) is that they were still counted among the eldar. It is true that the appendices make clear that if they stayed after their father left they would become mortal, but I think that for some reason they were given a "moratorium". I believe this because in the LOTR much enphasis is given to the last words between Elrond and Arwen, that their parting was to last beyond the end of the world, etc, etc, while nothing is said about Elladan and Elrohir, this is strange because I don't think that the love between Elrond and his daughter was greater than between his sons. I believe then, that Elrond expected to see them again in immortal lands a little while after he parted (a little while as time is counted by the elves, of course). Perhaps, being the heirs of Elrond and because of their efforts against Sauron they were given a time of grace to settle everything in Imladris before parting? there's some evidence that supports the existence of this special grace such as the fact that the two hobbit ring-bearers were allowed to sail to the uttermost West, and also Gimli the dwarf some years afterwards. Also, if we accept the hypothesis that Galadriel was still banned before the War of the Ring, there would be another example of special graces given after the war. ###### From: stephen@nomail.com Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: 23 May 2004 15:40:20 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 31 Sender: stephen@nomail.com Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> <40aff018$0$25329$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pacific.cse.msu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AUTHid: wagners5 User-Agent: tin/1.4.3-20000502 ("Marian") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.9 (sun4u)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151762 In rec.arts.books.tolkien Morgil wrote: : kirjoitti viestissä:c8p72p$2q9m$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... :> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Ancalagon The Black : wrote: :> : stephen@nomail.com wrote: :> : That doesn't quite make sense. Cirdan is often quoted as saying that he : will :> : "remain by these grey shores, until the last ship sets sail...". At the :> : earliest he would have to go *with* Celeborn, not before him. Am I : making :> : sense? :> :> As I said, when Cirdan left is never made clear, and the evidence is :> somewhat contradictory. There are many statements about him remaining : until :> the last ship sails, but there is also evidence that he left with Elrond :> and the gang, and that others left after him. : The Last Ship which Cirdan talked about must have been : the one with the Ringbearers, and he went along them. Must it have been? In the appendix it says "At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the Shipwright, and some say he dwells there still until the Last Ship sails into the West." This was supposedly "written" after Elrond and the gang sailed away, as it is part of the Red Book. Stephen ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 21:59:24 +0300 Organization: Helsinki Television Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> <40aff018$0$25329$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs181058186.pp.htv.fi X-Trace: nyytiset.pp.htv.fi 1085338768 17696 82.181.58.186 (23 May 2004 18:59:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@pp.htv.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 18:59:28 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!nyytiset.pp.htv.fi!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151782 kirjoitti viestissä:c8qgl4$r03$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... > In rec.arts.books.tolkien Morgil wrote: > > : kirjoitti viestissä:c8p72p$2q9m$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... > : The Last Ship which Cirdan talked about must have been > : the one with the Ringbearers, and he went along them. > > Must it have been? In the appendix it says > "At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the Shipwright, and some say > he dwells there still until the Last Ship sails into the West." > This was supposedly "written" after Elrond and the gang sailed away, > as it is part of the Red Book. "Some say". But *I* say it must be the Ringbearer ship because that's the only one that makes sense. Morgil ###### From: Dirk Thierbach Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:01:38 +0200 Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 5q18Y5/gw2sJcUJzghoLUQS7cMrKndHknyscHhv/yZB79RJcydrEkmrQ== X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.5.14-20020917 ("Chop Suey!") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.20 (i686)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151907 Naryldor wrote: [sons of Elrond] > It is true that the appendices make clear that if they stayed after > their father left they would become mortal, Would they? Where in the appendices is that said? I always understood that Arwen made her choice when deciding to marry Aragorn, not when she remained in ME while Elrond left. > but I think that for some reason they were given a "moratorium". [...] > Perhaps, being the heirs of Elrond and because of their efforts against > Sauron they were given a time of grace to settle everything in Imladris > before parting? Letter #153 confirms this: "The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while." - Dirk ###### From: Naryldor Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: 24 May 2004 18:58:45 GMT Organization: Mi casa Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de +OjDEu6QiR2GYPtYT2T9iA1XhjweUjpd2IqUjznKzKm7dolXDz User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151952 Dirk Thierbach wrote in news:i919o1-ll3.ln1@ID- 7776.user.uni-berlin.de: > Naryldor wrote: > [sons of Elrond] >> It is true that the appendices make clear that if they stayed after >> their father left they would become mortal, > > Would they? Where in the appendices is that said? I always understood > that Arwen made her choice when deciding to marry Aragorn, not when > she remained in ME while Elrond left. Yes they do, kindly read the rest of my post to see for yourself. :) >> but I think that for some reason they were given a "moratorium". > [...] > >> Perhaps, being the heirs of Elrond and because of their efforts against >> Sauron they were given a time of grace to settle everything in Imladris >> before parting? > > Letter #153 confirms this: "The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, > is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while." > > - Dirk > Thanks for the quote from "letters", as for the Appendices, this is a quote from apendix A - The Numenorean Kings: "At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong. Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind, and became a master of wisdom. To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost west; and this grace continued after the change of the world. But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle- earth. For Elrond, therefore, all chances of the War of the Ring were fraught with sorrow." ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Lines: 36 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 19:31:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1085427079 82.43.162.58 (Mon, 24 May 2004 20:31:19 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:31:19 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!easynet-monga!easynet.net!demorgan.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!hamilton.zen.co.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151961 Naryldor wrote: > Dirk Thierbach wrote >> Letter #153 confirms this: "The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, >> is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while." > Thanks for the quote from "letters", as for the Appendices, this is a > quote from apendix A - The Numenorean Kings: > > "At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an > irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong. Elrond chose > to be of Elven-kind, and became a master of wisdom. To him therefore > was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still > lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands > they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost > west; and this grace continued after the change of the world. But to > the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him > from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal > and die in Middle- earth. For Elrond, therefore, all chances of the > War of the Ring were fraught with sorrow." Note the word 'choice' is used in both passages. My interpretation is that the Letter speaks of a delay in the choice that the Appendix passage mentions. Both quotes talk about the same choice, but when the Appendix passage was written the delay had not yet happened. So the Letter quote overrides the Appendix quote. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: Dirk Thierbach Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 22:41:51 +0200 Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de whcQltC/J8KwajokHOqC9QQI9Omm5bG3fJMRV6XxgyUw+CTU6xpYOjuQ== X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.5.14-20020917 ("Chop Suey!") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.20 (i686)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152062 Naryldor wrote: > But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass > with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to > become mortal and die in Middle- earth. I always read this as "to pass in the same way as Elrond from the circles of the world", not "to leave ME at the same time as he does." I don't see any good reason to tie the choice of the sons of Elrond to Elronds departure, other than in a very general "they should have made their choice at about this time." After all, when Elrond goes, most of the other Elves go as well, so the decision becomes quite urgent at this stage. - Dirk ###### From: Naryldor Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: 24 May 2004 21:30:02 GMT Organization: Mi casa Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de HosDYQ7yGcjuZHVu8kswOAOXet9HFZ0OigJHUnhV3N+HSSrzWc User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:151982 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in news:b4ssc.1504 $IB7.13848797@news-text.cableinet.net: > So the Letter quote overrides the Appendix quote. > > Christopher Yes, I was not arguing about that, Dirk posted that he knew not where the appendices mentioned the fates of the offspring of Elrond, so I quoted the particular paragraph where that matter is explained and I indicated him where to find it. It is my thought also that the letter overrides the appendix and that the sons of Elrond delayed their choice and departed later to the West. -- "La cosa más bella que podemos experimentar es el misterio. Es la fuente de cualquier arte y ciencia verdaderos". ALBERT EINSTEIN Javier Caselli Fernández aka Naryldor (javicaselliNOSPAM@yahoo.es) ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 07:37:54 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152075 "Dirk Thierbach" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Naryldor wrote: > >> But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass >> with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to >> become mortal and die in Middle- earth. > >I always read this as "to pass in the same way as Elrond from the >circles of the world", not "to leave ME at the same time as he does." I'd agree with you if it said "to pass LIKE him". But "to pass WITH him" really has to mean at the same time and on the same conveyance, as far as I can understand the words. However, Tolkien did contradict this elsewhere. I can't remember the reference, but he did clearly state that they delayed their choice and stayed in Middle-earth without becoming mortal after their father left. So I guess Tolkien's "to pass with him from the circles of the world" must be deemed, as Nixon's henchmen would say, "inoperative". -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Dirk Thierbach Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:31:04 +0200 Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8tqbo1-jc6.ln1@ID-7776.user.uni-berlin.de> References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 9KKTmKKJ0K3detX9TBsyCAQSgih78SA+lV+D4yLzYhZUSXeyGVKCyaaw== X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.5.14-20020917 ("Chop Suey!") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.20 (i686)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152096 Stan Brown wrote: > "Dirk Thierbach" wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Naryldor wrote: >>> But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass >>> with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to >>> become mortal and die in Middle- earth. >> I always read this as "to pass in the same way as Elrond from the >> circles of the world", not "to leave ME at the same time as he does." > I'd agree with you if it said "to pass LIKE him". But "to pass WITH > him" really has to mean at the same time and on the same conveyance, > as far as I can understand the words. But why should the choice be bound to something Elrond does? That doesn't make any sense. > However, Tolkien did contradict this elsewhere. I can't remember the > reference, but he did clearly state that they delayed their choice > and stayed in Middle-earth without becoming mortal after their > father left. That's in the letter I quoted a bit earlier. > So I guess Tolkien's "to pass with him from the circles of the > world" must be deemed, as Nixon's henchmen would say, "inoperative". Or maybe he meant "like", and wrote "with"? - Dirk ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:20:32 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152103 On 24 May 2004 21:30:02 GMT, Naryldor wrote: >La cosa más bella que podemos experimentar es el misterio. > Es la fuente de cualquier arte y ciencia verdaderos". > ALBERT EINSTEIN I'm sorry, but I do not believe that the above is an accurate quote from Albert Einstein. the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up. -- Steven Wright ###### From: TT Arvind Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:18:56 +0100 Organization: Ents for the Great Teuncitarian Revolution Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de xKbxIC4mBVfCqr9nn6N4VAKZp6Kmj4pXXDV3gLkZZmGk1m2ZWD X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-News-Feed: Purina(TM) Dried Posts X-Ray-Glasses: Activated X-Files: Is a stupid waste of time Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152120 Wes đu the softrat hal! > >La cosa más bella que podemos experimentar es el misterio. > > Es la fuente de cualquier arte y ciencia verdaderos". > > ALBERT EINSTEIN > > I'm sorry, but I do not believe that the above is an accurate quote > from Albert Einstein. It's correct, word for word. For all his attempts to Germanify himself in later life, Alberto Unapiedra slipped into his native tongue once in a while. -- Meneldil In a single day, Samson slew a thousand Philistines with the jawbone of an ass. Every day, thousands of sales are killed with the same weapon. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 12:03:19 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3367b0l34b55kjd4rf9f8csp9u4tpm56sp@4ax.com> References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152124 On Tue, 25 May 2004 19:18:56 +0100, TT Arvind wrote: >Wes đu the softrat hal! >> >La cosa más bella que podemos experimentar es el misterio. >> > Es la fuente de cualquier arte y ciencia verdaderos". >> > ALBERT EINSTEIN >> >> I'm sorry, but I do not believe that the above is an accurate quote >> from Albert Einstein. > >It's correct, word for word. For all his attempts to Germanify himself >in later life, Alberto Unapiedra slipped into his native tongue once in a >while. You Sioux Troll! the softrat "Honi soit qui mal y pense." mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- What you have to do is take the bull by the teeth. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> <8tqbo1-jc6.ln1@ID-7776.user.uni-berlin.de> Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Lines: 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 20:24:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.162.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1085516678 82.43.162.58 (Tue, 25 May 2004 21:24:38 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 21:24:38 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152132 Dirk Thierbach wrote: > Stan Brown wrote: >> So I guess Tolkien's "to pass with him from the circles of the >> world" must be deemed, as Nixon's henchmen would say, "inoperative". > > Or maybe he meant "like", and wrote "with"? Unlikely. He knew how to write English... :-) ###### From: Naryldor Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: 26 May 2004 12:44:21 GMT Organization: Mi casa Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de vT+hvi7K7AKDr1cbcLfPBgMDjUoT5lliGYpIrVv1tYphFKxDGw User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152166 the softrat wrote in news:ugs6b0h76a5ua7vnj0ghtlghi6at69kmju@4ax.com: >>La cosa más bella que podemos experimentar es el misterio. >> Es la fuente de cualquier arte y ciencia verdaderos". >> ALBERT EINSTEIN > > I'm sorry, but I do not believe that the above is an accurate quote > from Albert Einstein. Well I'm sorry too, but it is. :) I' tell you from where it is taken, it is from an essay whose title in spanish is "Lo que creo", the english title is "The world as I see it" (1930). The quote in english goes like this "The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science." Bye. -- "La cosa más bella que podemos experimentar es el misterio. Es la fuente de cualquier arte y ciencia verdaderos". ALBERT EINSTEIN Javier Caselli Fernández aka Naryldor (javicaselliNOSPAM@yahoo.es) ###### From: Naryldor Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: 26 May 2004 12:47:50 GMT Organization: Mi casa Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> <8tqbo1-jc6.ln1@ID-7776.user.uni-berlin.de> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de SR1tl2xqDDimsaF1iwglOQI87FLi/cOztJiyaAcdepHwF00Bv0 User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152167 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in news:aYNsc.2501 $xE3.24854796@news-text.cableinet.net: > Unlikely. He knew how to write English... :-) > Or else he was the luckiest person in history, writing a 1000+ page book that became on the biggests successes in the history of literature without knowing the language in which it is written would be quite a lucky strike!! :) -- "La cosa más bella que podemos experimentar es el misterio. Es la fuente de cualquier arte y ciencia verdaderos". ALBERT EINSTEIN Javier Caselli Fernández aka Naryldor (javicaselliNOSPAM@yahoo.es) ###### From: Naryldor Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: 26 May 2004 12:52:55 GMT Organization: Mi casa Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de +EYKWsSrFgnhw+yzZpsQJwn88LcjfVss3+N7ve4QkrgwSftX2o User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152168 TT Arvind wrote in news:MPG.1b1d9e5358f1155e989b8b@news.individual.net: > It's correct, word for word. For all his attempts to Germanify > himself in later life, Alberto Unapiedra slipped into his native > tongue once in a while. Wow! I didn't ever bothered to translate his name, I really hope it doesn't sound as ridiculous in german as it does in spanish or good old Alberto must had had a very tough time at school when he was little. -- "La cosa más bella que podemos experimentar es el misterio. Es la fuente de cualquier arte y ciencia verdaderos". ALBERT EINSTEIN Javier Caselli Fernández aka Naryldor (javicaselliNOSPAM@yahoo.es) ###### From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 14:18:50 GMT Organization: Topiary of Cthulhu Lines: 33 Message-ID: <40b5f835.178833318@news.compuserve.com> References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> <40aff018$0$25329$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ndcvba1.utc.com X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1085667552 18345 192.249.49.31 (27 May 2004 14:19:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 14:19:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!c03.atl99!news.usenetserver.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152242 On Sun, 23 May 2004 09:59:56 +0300, "Morgil" wrote: > > kirjoitti viestissä:c8p72p$2q9m$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... >> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Ancalagon The Black > wrote: >> : stephen@nomail.com wrote: > >> : That doesn't quite make sense. Cirdan is often quoted as saying that he >will >> : "remain by these grey shores, until the last ship sets sail...". At the >> : earliest he would have to go *with* Celeborn, not before him. Am I >making >> : sense? >> >> As I said, when Cirdan left is never made clear, and the evidence is >> somewhat contradictory. There are many statements about him remaining >until >> the last ship sails, but there is also evidence that he left with Elrond >> and the gang, and that others left after him. > >The Last Ship which Cirdan talked about must have been >the one with the Ringbearers, and he went along them. Elves seem to be a bit loose with the word "last". Elrond's is called the "last homely house", but I recall that Bilbo and the dwarves found Beorn's house pretty comfortable... Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat) -- "She's a know-how cow and she wants out now from the cow town." - Colleen Kattau ###### Message-ID: <40b621a3$0$20510$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> From: Ancalagon The Black Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 18:14:09 +0100 References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> <40aff018$0$25329$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> <40b5f835.178833318@news.compuserve.com> Organization: Angband, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 May 2004 17:13:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 81-86-165-234.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1085677987 news-text.dial.pipex.com 20510 81.86.165.234:13015 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsoutpeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsinpeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152247 Jim Deutch wrote: > Elves seem to be a bit loose with the word "last". Elrond's is called > the "last homely house", but I recall that Bilbo and the dwarves found > Beorn's house pretty comfortable... > Wasn't Elrond's house "the Last Homely House, east of the Sea..."? Best, -- Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband ancalagon.the.black@virgin.net ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:33:58 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> <40aff018$0$25329$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> <40b5f835.178833318@news.compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 35 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152250 "Jim Deutch" <103134.3516@compuserve.com> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Elves seem to be a bit loose with the word "last". Elrond's is called >the "last homely house", but I recall that Bilbo and the dwarves found >Beorn's house pretty comfortable... From /The Hobbit/, Chapter 3, "A Short Rest": "That sounded nice and comforting, but they had not got there yet, and it was not so easy as it sounds to find the Last Homely House west of the Mountains." Since Rivendell was in the foothills, it would be surprising if there were another Homely House beyond it but still west of the mountains. I can just picture an ad agency pitching to Elrond: "We'll call it the Last Homely House west of the Mountains, and hope that nobody thinks that's like talking about the tallest mountain in the Shire. You can charge 80 silver pennies a day, change the sheets every six months, and serve week-old porridge for dinner; still people will come because there's nowhere else to go." -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### Reply-To: "Paul Lawler" From: "Paul Lawler" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> <40aff018$0$25329$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Lines: 26 Organization: Hui Kilolani X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 20:21:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.203.19.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1085689287 64.203.19.67 (Thu, 27 May 2004 13:21:27 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:21:27 PDT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!atl-c02.usenetserver.com!c03.atl99!c01.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!74b0f27a!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152273 "Morgil" wrote in message news:c8qsag$h90$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi... > > kirjoitti viestissä:c8qgl4$r03$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... > > In rec.arts.books.tolkien Morgil wrote: > > > > : kirjoitti > viestissä:c8p72p$2q9m$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... > > > : The Last Ship which Cirdan talked about must have been > > : the one with the Ringbearers, and he went along them. > > > > Must it have been? In the appendix it says > > "At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the Shipwright, and some say > > he dwells there still until the Last Ship sails into the West." > > This was supposedly "written" after Elrond and the gang sailed away, > > as it is part of the Red Book. > > "Some say". But *I* say it must be the Ringbearer ship > because that's the only one that makes sense. Some people say King Arthur will come back to Britain... And I say the sooner the better. ###### Reply-To: "Paul Lawler" From: "Paul Lawler" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <40afca18$0$20513$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> <40aff018$0$25329$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> Subject: Re: The Last Memories Of Celeborn Lines: 26 Organization: Hui Kilolani X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 01:10:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.203.19.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1085706606 64.203.19.67 (Thu, 27 May 2004 18:10:06 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 18:10:06 PDT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!74b0f27a!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:152306 "Morgil" wrote in message news:c8qsag$h90$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi... > > kirjoitti viestissä:c8qgl4$r03$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... > > In rec.arts.books.tolkien Morgil wrote: > > > > : kirjoitti > viestissä:c8p72p$2q9m$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... > > > : The Last Ship which Cirdan talked about must have been > > : the one with the Ringbearers, and he went along them. > > > > Must it have been? In the appendix it says > > "At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the Shipwright, and some say > > he dwells there still until the Last Ship sails into the West." > > This was supposedly "written" after Elrond and the gang sailed away, > > as it is part of the Red Book. > > "Some say". But *I* say it must be the Ringbearer ship > because that's the only one that makes sense. Some people say King Arthur will come back to Britain... And I say the sooner the better!