From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <4096451a.643244@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <4097f565.23978579@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <40992e64.18541280@netnews.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Revenge in Tolkien Lines: 58 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 20:14:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.192 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1083788079 82.43.166.192 (Wed, 05 May 2004 21:14:39 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 21:14:39 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news2.euro.net!213.218.66.70.MISMATCH!feeder.enertel.nl!nntpfeed-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net!dedekind.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!hamilton.zen.co.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:150175 stealthy_tanuki@-remove-yahoo.com wrote: > BTW, my mind is drawing a blank, but are there any revenge themes > (aside from Feanor) ala Icelandic, etc. in Tolkien's writings? Death > of father, mother, brother, etc. avenged? Turin was supposedly avenging his mother and sister's maltreatment at some point, and then avenging the death of Finduilas, but he doesn't really do a very good job of it. He did manage to kill Brodda and Glaurung though. Hurin slew Mim in revenge for his betrayal of Turin. Hurin also (unwittingly) further ensnared Thingol in the Doom of the Silmarils by giving him the Nauglamir, at which point he had been deceived by Morgoth into thinking that he was pouring scorn on Thingol's treatment of Turin and the rest of his family. As you mentioned, there is Feanor and his seeking of revenge for Finwe's death, and then Feanor's sons seeking revenge for Feanor's death. Though the Silmarils were the main motivation. The Dwarves and Orcs are always good for revenge themes. Thror-Thrain-Thorin and Azog-Great Goblin-Bolg, and Nain-Dain spring to mind. Then the Dwarves took revenge (or tried to) on Smaug, though in the end it was Bard who took revenge for the Men of Dale and Esgaroth. Then we have the Dwarves and the Elves, when the Dwarves of Nogrod sought revenge for the slaying of those who slew Thingol. Morgoth and Sauron were the masters of revenge though. Their list is a bit too long to go into, but consider the falls of: the Three Houses of the Edain; Numenor; Arnor; Gondor. That is really just Morgoth and then Sauron being vengeful on the Men that aided the Noldor in Beleriand, and the descendents of those Men. Sauron took revenge on Feanor's descendents by betraying the Noldor of Eregion and making that Ruling Ring. The Ents took revenge on Saruman. And Saruman took revenge on the Hobbits. One of my favourite quotes is this one: He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the enemy who long ago did thee this hurt It is a quote from a HoME volume (the Athrabad from Morgoth's Ring I think), and is Finrod talking to a human woman about Aegnor, one of the sons of Finarfin, who died in the Dagor Bragollach. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: atsarisborn@hotmail.com (A Tsar Is Born) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Revenge in Tolkien Date: 6 May 2004 22:41:17 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <4096451a.643244@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <4097f565.23978579@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <40992e64.18541280@netnews.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.132.206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1083908477 6438 127.0.0.1 (7 May 2004 05:41:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 05:41:17 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:150297 > stealthy_tanuki@-remove-yahoo.com > wrote: > > BTW, my mind is drawing a blank, but are there any revenge themes > > (aside from Feanor) ala Icelandic, etc. in Tolkien's writings? Death > > of father, mother, brother, etc. avenged? Yeah, it's a regular theme, comes up all the time. Haleth even denounces the elves for thinking she'd have anything to do with the murderers of her father and brother. Eorl wins his spurs avenging his father's death. The entire War of the Dwarfs and Orcs is fought by Thrain (and all the other dwarves) to avenge the murder of Thror by Azog. Elladan and Elrohir hunt orcs to avenge the ill-treatment of their mother. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are accused of chasing the orcs to avenge Boromir's death, but that's not the reason at all. (Good guys are above simple revenge motives in Tolkien.) The ents destroy Saruman to avenge their murdered kin. It's a regular Norse motif. Tolkien regarded it as manly and heroic but not quite virtuous being unChristian. So the good guys tend to have other motives. Gandalf, e.g., is not motivated by vengeance against Saruman -- but Saruman is motivated by it against the hobbits. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: stealthy_tanuki@-remove-yahoo.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Revenge in Tolkien Organization: Cryptic Message-ID: <317n90db58sm9e1qjl34g2bnipbg8o129p@4ax.com> References: <4096451a.643244@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <4097f565.23978579@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <40992e64.18541280@netnews.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:25:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.146.152 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1083939933 12.75.146.152 (Fri, 07 May 2004 14:25:33 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:25:33 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:150318 On 6 May 2004 22:41:17 -0700, atsarisborn@hotmail.com (A Tsar Is Born) wrote: >> stealthy_tanuki@-remove-yahoo.com >> wrote: >> > BTW, my mind is drawing a blank, but are there any revenge themes >> > (aside from Feanor) ala Icelandic, etc. in Tolkien's writings? Death >> > of father, mother, brother, etc. avenged? > >Yeah, it's a regular theme, comes up all the time. > >Haleth even denounces the elves for thinking she'd have anything to do >with the murderers of her father and brother. > >Eorl wins his spurs avenging his father's death. > >The entire War of the Dwarfs and Orcs is fought by Thrain (and all the >other dwarves) to avenge the murder of Thror by Azog. > >Elladan and Elrohir hunt orcs to avenge the ill-treatment of their >mother. > >Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are accused of chasing the orcs to avenge >Boromir's death, but that's not the reason at all. (Good guys are >above simple revenge motives in Tolkien.) > >The ents destroy Saruman to avenge their murdered kin. > >It's a regular Norse motif. Tolkien regarded it as manly and heroic >but not quite virtuous being unChristian. So the good guys tend to >have other motives. Gandalf, e.g., is not motivated by vengeance >against Saruman -- but Saruman is motivated by it against the hobbits. > >Tsar Parmathule I meant as a central theme to a story, but I already got my answer to that too! Ah, for the summer when I'll have time to read again! Thanks for all the replies, folks. -- Sindamor Pandaturion [remove -remove- to reply]