From: tree01@inreach.com (Felix Oscar) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 21 Feb 2004 12:17:49 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 7 Message-ID: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.209.18.161 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1077394669 9220 127.0.0.1 (21 Feb 2004 20:17:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:17:49 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!fu-berlin.de!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144076 Were there tales before JRRT about a thing that gave you power but also corrupted you? Arthur had Excalibur that didn't corrupt you. What tales and epic poems influenced JRRT the most? The obvious ones are Beowulf, Homer and Shakespeare. Didn't elves exist in stories for centuries but they weren't tall? ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:29:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077395383 82.43.166.216 (Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:29:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:29:43 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!212.23.6.68.MISMATCH!zen.net.uk!hamilton.zen.co.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144077 Felix Oscar wrote: > Were there tales before JRRT about a thing that gave you power but > also corrupted you? Arthur had Excalibur that didn't corrupt you. Almost certainly. Anything based on human nature will have been written about before. Power and corruption and magical devices are common themes and storytelling devices. Hopefully someone will come up with some examples... > What tales and epic poems influenced JRRT the most? The obvious ones > are Beowulf, Homer and Shakespeare. Tolkien didn't like Shakespeare. He did write the Ents and Eowyn in reaction to Birnam Wood and MacDuff (in Macbeth), but that is not really a positive influence. Beowulf and the Northern mythologies, yes. There is lots of literary criticism out there that deals with what influenced Tolkien. I'm not sure about any link with Homer, though Tolkien (as was universal at the time) was indeed educated in the Classics. > Didn't elves exist in stories for centuries but they weren't tall? These weren't Tolkien's Elves. He used the word Elves as a translation for the Quendi. They were his own unique creation. (Were they unique?) Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Berislav Lopac" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:34:45 +0100 Organization: HTnet Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: at09-m341.net.hinet.hr X-Trace: ls219.htnet.hr 1077399169 6439 83.131.125.101 (21 Feb 2004 21:32:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@htnet.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:32:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!195.29.150.88.MISMATCH!news2.htnet.hr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144089 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > These weren't Tolkien's Elves. He used the word Elves as a translation > for the Quendi. They were his own unique creation. (Were they unique?) They seem very similar to the Sidhe Bheain (sp.?) of the Irish folklore. Berislav ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:22:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077409377 82.43.166.216 (Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:22:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:22:57 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144099 Berislav Lopac wrote: > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >> These weren't Tolkien's Elves. He used the word Elves as a >> translation for the Quendi. They were his own unique creation. (Were >> they unique?) > > They seem very similar to the Sidhe Bheain (sp.?) of the Irish > folklore. I believe there are Sidhe in Scandanavian folklore as well. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:47:59 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!shaw.ca!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144109 It seems "Felix Oscar" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Were there tales before JRRT about a thing that gave you power but >also corrupted you? Arthur had Excalibur that didn't corrupt you. The Ring of the Nibelung came close, but there was an important distinction: the Nibelung's Ring drew bad things to you externally because it was cursed; Sauron's Ring turned you rotten from the inside. But the idea that "absolute power corrupts absolutely" was definitely not original with Tolkien. Try this search: >http://www.bartleby.com/cgi-bin/texis/webinator/sitesearch?FILTER=&query=absolute+power&x=19&y=10 Search hits include Lord Acton (1887) and Lord Chesterfield (1751). Tolkien would certainly have known both the sentiment and the quotes. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Shanahan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Message-ID: <874g305gce9c3u64mh65tjj10hp43oncoj@4ax.com> References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: max4-ra-45.redsuspenders.com X-Original-Trace: 21 Feb 2004 21:26:08 -0500, max4-ra-45.redsuspenders.com Lines: 36 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:33:30 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.34.105.14 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1077416795 208.34.105.14 (Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:26:35 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:26:35 CST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!news.netacc.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144115 On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:34:45 +0100, "Berislav Lopac" wrote: >Christopher Kreuzer wrote: >> These weren't Tolkien's Elves. He used the word Elves as a translation >> for the Quendi. They were his own unique creation. (Were they unique?) > >They seem very similar to the Sidhe Bheain (sp.?) of the Irish folklore. >Berislav This is a question that has always interested me. Tolkien's elves have always reminded me of the Tuatha de Danann, or the Sidhe, of Irish folklore. Omitting, of course, the sexual and scatological parts of the Irish mythos...which, by the way, _I_ thoroughly enjoy (read Randy Lee Eickhoff's translations of the Red Branch cycles). There is the height thing, the kind of fascination and power that the elves hold for men, the idea of Tir na N'Og or the Blessed Isles in the West, the idea of slow fading into something smaller and less powerful (leprechauns), the idea of elves being kick-a** warriors in both mundane and magical arenas...I could go on forever. I think Tolkien's elves also owe much to the Scandinavian concept of elves, but I know less about Scandinavian mythology. (OT, I love what Julian May did with these two mythologies in the Pliocene Exile series of books.) I think that the name you reference above actually means "woman of the Sidhe", hence "banshee", but not knowing Irish, I'm not sure. All that I know about Tolkien on Irish mythology, however, is that quote from Letters where he says he loves Ireland but hates the language. Anyone?? ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 04:25:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.155.141.33 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1077423947 141.155.141.33 (Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:25:47 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:25:47 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144126 "Felix Oscar" wrote in message news:22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com... > Were there tales before JRRT about a thing that gave you power but > also corrupted you? Nearly every story about someone who attained a crown. One thinks, for instance, of King Saul. Power corrupts. > What tales and epic poems influenced JRRT the most? The obvious ones > are Beowulf, Homer and Shakespeare. Homer not at all, Shakespeare not much. Volsunga Saga and the various eddas a great deal. H. Rider Haggard's She. The Kalevala. Lord Dunsany. George Macdonald. William Morris. > Didn't elves exist in stories for centuries but they weren't tall? The use of the word "elf" was a reluctant one on Tolkien's part, who wanted to distinguish them from Shakespeare's sort of elf. He also found himself in trouble when he referred (in his at-the-time unpublished writings) to the Valar as gods. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: "Atalante" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 09:41:11 -0000 Organization: freedom2surf Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <874g305gce9c3u64mh65tjj10hp43oncoj@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: i-195-137-81-76.freedom2surf.net X-Trace: news.freedom2surf.net 1077442872 22606 195.137.81.76 (22 Feb 2004 09:41:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@freedom2surf.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 09:41:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!stargate.gts.cz!news.freedom2surf.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144140 > (OT, I love what Julian May did with these two mythologies in the Pliocene > Exile series of books.) Oh yes, those books are absolutely wonderful. And I'm always struck by the resemblance of Marc Remillard to Fëanor ... ###### From: Een Wilde Ier Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:44:54 +0000 Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.46.85.22 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077457490 49475804 I 194.46.85.22 ([121201]) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031013 Thunderbird/0.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!194.46.85.22!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144149 Berislav Lopac wrote: > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > >>These weren't Tolkien's Elves. He used the word Elves as a translation >>for the Quendi. They were his own unique creation. (Were they unique?) > > > They seem very similar to the Sidhe Bheain (sp.?) of the Irish folklore. Bean Sídhe... ###### From: coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 05:51:30 -0800 Organization: eden tos random Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.3b1 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news2.euro.net!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!mair_fheal Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144150 In article , Een Wilde Ier wrote: > Berislav Lopac wrote: > > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > > > >>These weren't Tolkien's Elves. He used the word Elves as a translation > >>for the Quendi. They were his own unique creation. (Were they unique?) > > > > > > They seem very similar to the Sidhe Bheain (sp.?) of the Irish folklore. > > Bean Sídhe... of milagro bean field war fame ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:00:50 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 40 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144159 On 21 Feb 2004 12:17:49 -0800, tree01@inreach.com (Felix Oscar) wrote: >What tales and epic poems influenced JRRT the most? The obvious ones >are Beowulf, Homer and Shakespeare. He himself goes into some detail about this in "On Fairy-Stories," for instance, when he discusses the Soup (and banana skins and the Archbishop of Canterbury and the witches in "Macbeth" and other high matters). I have also found premonitions of a couple of JRRT things in Stephen Crane's "Black Riders and Other Lines," that is, of the Black Riders (which of course are not Nazgul in Crane) as well as the Ents' song, "We come, we come." This, however, is not epic poetry. >Didn't elves exist in stories for centuries but they weren't tall? The Master again: "As for diminutive size: I do not deny that the notion is a leading one in modern use. I have often thought that it would be interesting to try to find out how that has come to be so; but my knowledge is not sufficient for a certain answer. Of old there were indeed some inhabitants of Faerie that were small (though hardly diminutive), but smallness was not characteristic of that people as a whole. The diminutive being, elf or fairy, is (I guess) in England largely a sophisticated product of literary fancy. It is perhaps not unnatural that in England, the land where the love of the delicate and fine has often reappeared in art, fancy should in this matter turn towards the dainty and diminutive, as in France it went to court and put on powder and diamonds. Yet I suspect that this flower-and-butterfly minuteness was also a product of "rationalization," which transformed the glamour of Elfland into mere finesse, and invisibility into a fragility that could hide in a cowslip or shrink behind a blade of grass. It seems to become fashionable soon after the great voyages had begun to make the world seem too narrow to hold both men and elves; when the magic land of Hy Breasail in the West had become the mere Brazils, the land of red-dye-wood." Barb ###### From: Smaug Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:45:26 +0200 Organization: Helsinki Television Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs181000243.pp.htv.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: nyytiset.pp.htv.fi 1077482732 28051 82.181.0.243 (22 Feb 2004 20:45:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@pp.htv.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:45:32 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7a) Gecko/20040220 X-Accept-Language: fi, en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!nyytiset.pp.htv.fi!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144183 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > Felix Oscar wrote: > >>Were there tales before JRRT about a thing that gave you power but >>also corrupted you? Arthur had Excalibur that didn't corrupt you. > > > Almost certainly. Anything based on human nature will have been written > about before. Power and corruption and magical devices are common themes > and storytelling devices. Hopefully someone will come up with some > examples... Maybe one can think the Sampo (from Kalevala) as such device. "The Sampo, the magic mill, is the most fascinating mystery of the epic. It is the ultimate source of prosperity, a kind of primitive Philosophers's Stone. Ilmarinen, the smith, whose character has connections to Vulcanus (Hepaestus), the god of fire, makes the Sampo to have a wife. Väinämoinen, his consultant, tells him: "If you can forge the Sampo / brighten the bright-lid / you'll get the maid for your pay / for your work the lovely girl." Ilmarinen pushes the raw stuffs in the fire, works several days, the smoke thickens to the clouds, and finally sees the Sampo being born. "And then the new Sampo ground / and the bright-lid rocked; / ground a binful at twilight - / one binful to eat / another it ground to sell / and a third to store at home." The Sampo has been interpreted in many ways: a world pillar or tree, a chest containing a treasure, or a mint stolen by Vikings from Byzantium as the poet Paavo Haavikko has suggested." -s ###### From: "Troels Forchhammer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Lines: 21 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:37:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.25.150.129 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1077485870 172.25.150.129 (Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:37:50 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:37:50 EET Organization: Nokia Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news2.euro.net!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144189 in , Belba Grubb from Stock enriched us with: > > On 21 Feb 2004 12:17:49 -0800, tree01@inreach.com (Felix Oscar) wrote: >> >> What tales and epic poems influenced JRRT the most? The obvious ones >> are Beowulf, Homer and Shakespeare. > > He himself goes into some detail about this in "On Fairy-Stories," I /have/ to get that sometime soon. It just went up a couple of places on my prioritized Tolkien wish-list ;-) -- Troels Forchhammer Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. - Anne Lamott ###### Message-ID: <40392B45.399720FF@aon.at> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:20:53 +0100 From: Georg =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6negger?= X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [de] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: M324P026.adsl.highway.telekom.at X-Trace: 1077488382 newsreader01.highway.telekom.at 29832 62.47.208.122 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!feeder2.ecngs.de!217.73.144.44.MISMATCH!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!newsfeed.utanet.at!newsfeed01.highway.telekom.at!newsreader01.highway.telekom.at!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144194 > What tales and epic poems influenced JRRT the most? a strange influence may have been eddison's 'ouroboros'. concerning the myth of creation / cosmology : the images remind me of stapledon's 'star maker'. now, 'star maker' was only published in 1937, so i don't know if tolkien knew about it and if it influenced him, but he certainly had read eddison. georg ###### From: loisillon@libertysurf.fr (loisillon) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 22 Feb 2004 15:31:26 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.8.25.139 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1077492687 15305 127.0.0.1 (22 Feb 2004 23:31:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:31:27 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!news.newsland.it!proxad.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!newsfeed2.dallas1.level3.net!news.level3.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144206 tree01@inreach.com (Felix Oscar) wrote in message news:<22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com>... > Were there tales before JRRT about a thing that gave you power but > also corrupted you? Arthur had Excalibur that didn't corrupt you. > > What tales and epic poems influenced JRRT the most? The obvious ones > are Beowulf, Homer and Shakespeare. > > Didn't elves exist in stories for centuries but they weren't tall? Niebelungenlied. Many common points, to begin with the ring. The story of the treasure of the dwarves kept by the dragon also. I do not understand why Tolkien denied Niebelungenlied as source of inspiration. Round Table also for the Fellowship and the word "quest". ###### Reply-To: "Conrad B Dunkerson" From: "Conrad B Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2055 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2055 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:59:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.89.34.196 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1077497987 138.89.34.196 (Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:59:47 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:59:47 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144223 "loisillon" wrote in message news:d1eee332.0402221531.414b93da@posting.google.com... > Niebelungenlied. Many common points, to begin with the ring. Not really. > The story of the treasure of the dwarves kept by the dragon also. That dragons kept treasure hordes was a common conception long before Wagner and Tolkien. > I do not understand why Tolkien denied Niebelungenlied as source of > inspiration. Consider 'The Hobbit'. Was there anything about Bilbo's Ring, as it was portrayed in that book, which was similar to Niebelungenlied? I'd say no. From there Tolkien began a new story and wrote everything from the start up to the council of Elrond TWICE and the Ring still had very little in common with Wagner's. He eventually decided to make the Ring much more powerful because otherwise it did not make sense that all these black riders were chasing Frodo around and Sauron doing everything he could to recover the Ring while Elrond, Gandalf and all the rest were devoting so much energy to keeping it safe. All of those things grew in the development of the story BEFORE Tolkien even conceived of the idea of 'One Ring to rule them all' and he came up with that concept specifically in response to all the fuss being made over the thing. In short, we have the textual history of the Ring's evolution in the HoME books and the simple fact is that Tolkien did not start out with a concept similar to Wagner's Ring. That the final form ended up that way is a coincidence which can be traced step by step through changes made in response to the way the story was developing. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:30:02 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144230 It seems "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>"On Fairy-Stories," > >I /have/ to get that sometime soon. >It just went up a couple of places on my prioritized Tolkien wish-list ;-) Is is just me, or did others find that _very_ hard to read and not much fun? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:33:39 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144231 It seems "Conrad B Dunkerson" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: [We have textual history of Bilbo's simple invisibility ring gradually developing into a Ring of World Domination.] >That the final form ended up that way is a coincidence which can be >traced step by step through changes made in response to the way the story >was developing. I think your point about the textual history is well taken, and if it's not in the FAQ of the Rings it will be at the next revision. I think it's enough to show that Tolkien didn't consciously plan to out-Wagner Wagner. However, I wonder whether Tolkien _unconsciously_ was pulled toward the Wagnerian idea of a Ring, in the course of those many revisions. That's probably something we have no way to know. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: "TeaLady (Mari C.)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 23 Feb 2004 04:05:44 GMT Organization: Lint Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.net (68.170.200.65) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077509144 51380436 I 68.170.200.65 ([137949]) User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 x-face: 8S?dQ)V'hP@.Lf3Ot.sv"e+zw7tDI4*y7F3ySvbXP%qrfyUVyXTSovH~=C}5]"*4K`e4q_@ ]OG'MH[A!iPTo6O:Ru:FUr,R6|%`H^>U:F)MjpAS&{^3A/Mq=/0ewP)VoUj7E^)Ilg`n%{z=R0d88: O{^)NYf]Ys.D#w`R':o+%gkH,f.bZyYp]`)+}?f8$&{,Gz@z9ou=N]Z}o0CI]q&n\\kz/Op@\cg15@S[z&bb'f`2T,a> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144237 "Conrad B Dunkerson" wrote in news:7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net: > > "loisillon" wrote in message > news:d1eee332.0402221531.414b93da@posting.google.com... > > >> Niebelungenlied. Many common points, to begin with the >> ring. > > Not really. > >> The story of the treasure of the dwarves kept by the dragon >> also. > > That dragons kept treasure hordes was a common conception > long before Wagner and Tolkien. > >> I do not understand why Tolkien denied Niebelungenlied as >> source of inspiration. > Wagner didn't write the Niebelungenlied. It is an old story, older than Wagner. Wagner's Rings were an operatic re-write of the story, with additions and changes. Kinda like PJ did with LoTR. -- mc ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 05:32:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.158.9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1077514327 162.83.158.9 (Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:32:07 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:32:07 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144245 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1aa32fb87cd8a9c598bec9@news.odyssey.net... > It seems "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>"On Fairy-Stories," > Is is just me, or did others find that _very_ hard to read and not > much fun? Didn't you like the fire-breathing six-headed dragon, the CGI exploding fortress, and the sword-wielding babes with bare breasts? Oops, sorry, that may only have been in the movie version. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:58:35 -0800 Organization: eden tos random Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.3b1 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!shaw.ca!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!mair_fheal Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144249 In article , "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: > "Stan Brown" wrote in message > news:MPG.1aa32fb87cd8a9c598bec9@news.odyssey.net... > > It seems "Troels Forchhammer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > >>"On Fairy-Stories," > > > Is is just me, or did others find that _very_ hard to read and not > > much fun? > > Didn't you like the fire-breathing six-headed dragon, the CGI exploding > fortress, and the sword-wielding babes with bare breasts? > > Oops, sorry, that may only have been in the movie version. one of those weird american things you can have any number bare breasted women on pbs but one flash of a star spangled boobie on commercial tv ###### Lines: 23 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: hopeandfaith2001@aol.comkhyucft (Hope) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 23 Feb 2004 13:02:27 GMT References: Organization: AOL, http://www.aol.co.uk Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Message-ID: <20040223080227.25000.00000287@mb-m07.aol.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news2.euro.net!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144262 >Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature >From: Stan Brown the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm >Date: 23/02/2004 02:33 GMT Standard Time >Message-id: > >It seems "Conrad B Dunkerson" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >[We have textual history of Bilbo's simple invisibility ring >gradually developing into a Ring of World Domination.] >>That the final form ended up that way is a coincidence which can be >>traced step by step through changes made in response to the way the story >>was developing. > >I think your point about the textual history is well taken, and if >it's not in the FAQ of the Rings it will be at the next revision. > >I think it's enough to show that Tolkien didn't consciously plan to >out-Wagner Wagner. However, I wonder whether Tolkien _unconsciously_ >was pulled toward the Wagnerian idea of a Ring, in the course of >those many revisions. That's probably something we have no way to >know. I've always thought it was that they were just both fishing from the same meme pool. ###### From: fredfighter@spamcop.net (Fred the Red Shirt) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 23 Feb 2004 08:18:09 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.46.247.22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1077553089 16524 127.0.0.1 (23 Feb 2004 16:18:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:18:09 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144272 "Conrad B Dunkerson" wrote in message news:<7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>... > "loisillon" wrote in message > news:d1eee332.0402221531.414b93da@posting.google.com... > > > > Niebelungenlied. Many common points, to begin with the ring. > > Not really. > Yes really. Each featured as a common point, a golden ring of power. -- FF ###### From: fredfighter@spamcop.net (Fred the Red Shirt) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 23 Feb 2004 08:21:02 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.46.247.22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1077553262 16662 127.0.0.1 (23 Feb 2004 16:21:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:21:02 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!newsfeed2.dallas1.level3.net!news.level3.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144273 "A Tsar Is Born" wrote in message news:... > > > > What tales and epic poems influenced JRRT the most? The obvious ones > > are Beowulf, Homer and Shakespeare. > > Homer not at all, Shakespeare not much. > Volsunga Saga and the various eddas a great deal. > H. Rider Haggard's She. > The Kalevala. > Lord Dunsany. > George Macdonald. > William Morris. > The most obvious is the Legend of Roland. Boromir's demise was in some respects a retelling of Roland's demise--and in other respects different. -- FF ###### From: Matthew Woodcraft Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 23 Feb 2004 18:51:45 +0000 (GMT) Organization: Linux Unlimited Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: rapun.sel.cam.ac.uk Originator: mattheww@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([193.201.200.170]) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed3.jnfs.ja.net!jnfs.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144292 Fred the Red Shirt wrote: [Of the Nibelungenlied] >Each featured as a common point, a golden ring of power. Which ring are you thinking of? The one Sivrit takes from Prunhilt? What power do you think it has? -M- ###### From: Shanahan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature [OT] Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 15:49:54 -0500 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <874g305gce9c3u64mh65tjj10hp43oncoj@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Host: max3-ra-35.redsuspenders.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: max3-ra-35.redsuspenders.com X-Trace: news.netacc.net 1077482547 208.3.188.193 (22 Feb 2004 15:42:27 -0500) X-Original-Trace: 22 Feb 2004 15:42:27 -0500, max3-ra-35.redsuspenders.com Lines: 16 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!in.nntp.be!news.netacc.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144181 On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 09:41:11 -0000, "Atalante" wrote: > > >> (OT, I love what Julian May did with these two mythologies in the Pliocene >> Exile series of books.) > >Oh yes, those books are absolutely wonderful. And I'm always struck by the >resemblance of Marc Remillard to Fëanor ... > Oooh, interesting! I haven't thought of that before. Given the references to Remillard as "the angel of the abyss", I wonder if he might not even be equivalent to Melkor / Lucifer (albeit a Melkor who is redeemed in the end). ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:52:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077573151 82.43.166.216 (Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:52:31 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:52:31 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144307 Stan Brown wrote: [ about "On Fairy-Stories"] > Is is just me, or did others find that _very_ hard to read and not > much fun? Hmm. I thought I'd read it. Maybe it was a long time ago. It does look a bit dense and difficult to read. I have heard someone summarize it, and I think my memories of the essay may in fact be a hodge-podge of various people (Shippey, Carpenter, other critics and writers) quoting from it... Oh well, I'll have to put it on my 'to read' list, especially if I'm going to compare it to that GKC essay. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: me@privacy.net (Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 23 Feb 2004 23:50:57 GMT Organization: Dept. of CS, Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Lines: 27 Sender: Jamie Andrews Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: temperance.csd.uwo.ca (129.100.17.19) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077580257 52676780 I 129.100.17.19 ([193590]) X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.4.7-20030322 ("Suggestions") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!temperance.csd.uwo.CA!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144332 Stan Brown wrote: >>>"On Fairy-Stories," > Is is just me, or did others find that _very_ hard to read and not > much fun? I loved it (but then again I love reading technical non-fiction, and I once took a course which was all about analyzing fantasy and SF literature). There are so many passages of it that resonate deeply with me, such as the part about how the mind that thought of words for things can imagine one thing turning into another, the idea of "sub-creation", and so on. I still haven't explored all the works that he refers to in that essay, but would love to. OTOH, after looking forward to reading the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" for a long time, I found *that* to be a very difficult slog (when I finally read it last year). I was very distracted by all the allusions to Christianity -- not just the prediction of the coming of Christ, but the allusions to the Virgin Mary, the doctrine of inseparability of soul and body, and so on. It seemed more typical of C. S. Lewis or of late Frank Herbert (in the sense of characters being used as mouthpieces for the author's philosopy) than of Tolkien. --Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita) andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address. @csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.) ###### From: fredfighter@spamcop.net (Fred the Red Shirt) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 23 Feb 2004 17:29:16 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.46.247.22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1077586157 22896 127.0.0.1 (24 Feb 2004 01:29:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 01:29:17 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!newsfeed2.dallas1.level3.net!news.level3.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144346 Matthew Woodcraft wrote in message news:... > Fred the Red Shirt wrote: > > [Of the Nibelungenlied] > > >Each featured as a common point, a golden ring of power. > > Which ring are you thinking of? The one Sivrit takes from Prunhilt? > What power do you think it has? > I'm not interseted in specifics. No one is saying that the stories are alike in detail or that one was derivative of the other. Only that there were precedents in the literature. -- FF ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:17:17 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: <91dl309vrqdhupsjleri76qstc1tqlqh4s@4ax.com> References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 91 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144357 On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:52:31 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote: >Oh well, I'll have to put it on my 'to read' list, especially if >I'm going to compare it to that GKC essay. Bless you, sir! (g) As for "On Fairy-Stories" in terms of precedents, well, JRRT does include one quote in old English (I don't know what the correct name for this language is, but it's impossible to read with understanding), but otherwise the essay is pretty good reading and certainly goes down more easily if one keeps in mind that he was talking about this *as he began to write "The Lord of the Rings".* Think of it not as a lecture by an Oxford professor but as a window into the author's mind as he fashioned his own unforgettable subcreation. Just for the record, though as a mere list it's much drier than it reads in the essay, in "On Fairy-Stories" JRRT mentions (besides Chesterton and mostly in the first, more scholarly half): --Drayton's "Nymphidia" ("one of the worst [fairy stories] ever written") ; --"the poet Gower" (who wrote the old English quote, referred to above, some time before 1450); --Spenser; --Andrew Lang's twelve books of twelve colors (which I'd like to read); of note JRRT says he was born at about the time of Lang's Green Fairy Book; --H.G. Well's Eloi and Morlocks and "The Time Machine"; --Charles Perrault; --an unnamed "ancient English thinker [who] once derived the ylfe, the very elves, through Cain from Adam"; --Beatrix Potter; --the Egyptian D'Orsigny papyrus; --"Sir Gawain and the Green Knight"; --Shakespeare (he finds the witches in "Macbeth" tolerable when read, but not when dramatized); --"Brer Rabbit"; --George McDonald's "The Giant's Heart"; --Dasent, whoever he was, who said "We must be satisfied with the soup that is set before us, and not desire to see the bones of the ox out of which it has been boiled," although JRRT later takes this idea of a Soup and runs with it, deftly avoiding the banana skin the Archibishop of Canterbury slips on; --Max Muller; --Norse mythology, specifically, Thorr; and the Elder Edda; --German Hausmarchen and Grimm's Fairy Tales; --Arthurian legend; --"the great Northern 'Arthurian' court of the Shield-Kings of Denmark, the Scyldingas of ancient English tradition; --"Beowulf"; -- the Christian Story; -- "The Wind in the Willows"; -- A.A. Milne; -- Homer (the sacrifice of Iphigenia, anyway); -- Greek mythology; --Charles Dickens (both in reference to Chesterton, an authority on Dickens, and the body of work generally); and finally, --the anonymous but excellent "once upon a time," "and they lived happily ever after," and so forth. Sigh. Education. It makes a body so eclectic. Barb ###### From: "TeaLady (Mari C.)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 24 Feb 2004 03:18:57 GMT Organization: Lint Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.net (68.170.200.65) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077592737 52119625 I 68.170.200.65 ([137949]) User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 x-face: 8S?dQ)V'hP@.Lf3Ot.sv"e+zw7tDI4*y7F3ySvbXP%qrfyUVyXTSovH~=C}5]"*4K`e4q_@ ]OG'MH[A!iPTo6O:Ru:FUr,R6|%`H^>U:F)MjpAS&{^3A/Mq=/0ewP)VoUj7E^)Ilg`n%{z=R0d88: O{^)NYf]Ys.D#w`R':o+%gkH,f.bZyYp]`)+}?f8$&{,Gz@z9ou=N]Z}o0CI]q&n\\kz/Op@\cg15@S[z&bb'f`2T,a> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144360 fredfighter@spamcop.net (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in news:ef427f7c.0402230818.e05f73d@posting.google.com: > "Conrad B Dunkerson" > wrote in message > news:<7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>... >> "loisillon" wrote in message >> news:d1eee332.0402221531.414b93da@posting.google.com... >> >> >> > Niebelungenlied. Many common points, to begin with the >> > ring. >> >> Not really. >> > > Yes really. > > Each featured as a common point, a golden ring of power. > A part of the cursed hoard, and one of the several parts taken by the hero, who does stupid things with it, like giving it, then taking it back from, a lady who (in some versions of the tale) was an ex-valkyrie. Not a good thing to do, even if the ring was not a Ring, but just a plain old magical one with a curse. Moral - don't kill any otters, and don't take back magical cursed dragon rings. In fact, stay away from cursed gold of any sort. -- mc ###### From: Shanahan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Message-ID: <9hkl30114utpa9okq8svqhkb1knhf9jnsq@4ax.com> References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: max3-ra-37.redsuspenders.com X-Original-Trace: 23 Feb 2004 23:17:49 -0500, max3-ra-37.redsuspenders.com Lines: 23 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:25:26 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.34.105.14 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1077596301 208.34.105.14 (Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:18:21 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:18:21 CST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!news.netacc.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144369 On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:45:26 +0200, Smaug wrote: >Maybe one can think the Sampo (from Kalevala) as such device. >"The Sampo, the magic mill, is the most fascinating mystery of the epic. It is >the ultimate source of prosperity, a kind of primitive Philosophers's Stone. >Ilmarinen, the smith, whose character has connections to Vulcanus (Hepaestus), >the god of fire, makes the Sampo to have a wife. Väinämoinen, his consultant, >tells him: "If you can forge the Sampo / brighten the bright-lid / you'll get >the maid for your pay / for your work the lovely girl." Ilmarinen pushes the raw >stuffs in the fire, works several days, the smoke thickens to the clouds, and >finally sees the Sampo being born. "And then the new Sampo ground / and the >bright-lid rocked; / ground a binful at twilight - / one binful to eat / another >it ground to sell / and a third to store at home." The Sampo has been >interpreted in many ways: a world pillar or tree, a chest containing a treasure, >or a mint stolen by Vikings from Byzantium as the poet Paavo Haavikko has >suggested." > >-s > Reminds me strongly of the magical mills in the scandinavian legend of Froda, the good king, who is the source for Frodo's name. ###### From: me@privacy.net (Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 25 Feb 2004 18:54:36 GMT Organization: Dept. of CS, Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Lines: 22 Sender: Jamie Andrews Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: temperance.csd.uwo.ca (129.100.17.19) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077735276 53582350 I 129.100.17.19 ([193590]) X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.4.7-20030322 ("Suggestions") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!temperance.csd.uwo.CA!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144536 Felix Oscar wrote: > Didn't elves exist in stories for centuries but they weren't tall? To the other excellent book recommendations on this thread, I would like to add W. Y. Evans-Wentz's _The Fairy-Faith in Celtic Countries_. Evans-Wentz (who later became famous for a translation of the book he called _The Tibetan Book of the Dead_) travelled around the Celtic areas of Britain late in the 19th and early in the 20th century, asking ordinary people about their beliefs concerning the things called variously fairies, nixies, pixies, brownies and so on. The book documents what he found. Some of the beliefs and stories seem to be about beings of diminutive size. However, some seem to hark back to older traditions of powerful spirits living in sacred places in nature, in a kind of "parallel universe" to ours, with size not being mentioned as being important. --Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita) andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address. @csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.) ###### Reply-To: "Conrad B Dunkerson" From: "Conrad B Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2055 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2055 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 00:59:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.153.196.222 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1077757149 141.153.196.222 (Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:59:09 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:59:09 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144583 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1aa3308d892f6b3b98beca@news.odyssey.net... > I think it's enough to show that Tolkien didn't consciously plan to > out-Wagner Wagner. However, I wonder whether Tolkien _unconsciously_ > was pulled toward the Wagnerian idea of a Ring, in the course of > those many revisions. That's probably something we have no way to > know. Quite possible, but as you say beyond our ability to determine. The decisions he made in reacting to the evolving shape of the story COULD have been influenced by his familiarity with Wagner. Or they could just be coincidence. The textual history and the >differences< in the final forms are sufficient to allow either possibility. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad B Dunkerson" From: "Conrad B Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2055 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2055 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 01:01:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.153.196.222 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1077757263 141.153.196.222 (Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:01:03 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:01:03 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144585 "Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message news:ef427f7c.0402230818.e05f73d@posting.google.com... > Yes really. > Each featured as a common point, a golden ring of power. Yup, each of them had a magic ring. To me, that isn't a particularly strong incidence of commonality. By that logic you could say that 'The Hobbit' was inspired by Wagner. ###### From: Chris Kern Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 16:36:04 +0900 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-488.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144616 On 23 Feb 2004 04:05:44 GMT, "TeaLady (Mari C.)" posted the following: >Wagner didn't write the Niebelungenlied. It is an old story, >older than Wagner. Wagner's Rings were an operatic re-write of >the story, with additions and changes. Kinda like PJ did with >LoTR. In fact, Wagner in a sense created his own fantasy world with the Nibelungenlied and Germanic mythology as an inspiration. There are many major differences from Wagner's world and the one of Norse/Germanic mythology, and there are also many major differences between the Nibelungenlied and The Ring. -Chris ###### From: fredfighter@spamcop.net (Fred the Red Shirt) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 26 Feb 2004 06:59:37 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.46.247.22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1077807578 5321 127.0.0.1 (26 Feb 2004 14:59:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:59:38 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144629 "Conrad B Dunkerson" wrote in message news:... > "Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message > news:ef427f7c.0402230818.e05f73d@posting.google.com... > > > Yes really. > > Each featured as a common point, a golden ring of power. > > Yup, each of them had a magic ring. To me, that isn't a particularly > strong incidence of commonality. By that logic you could say that 'The > Hobbit' was inspired by Wagner. No. Surely you understand the distinction between precedent and inspired. -- FF ###### From: Matthew Woodcraft Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 26 Feb 2004 20:20:37 +0000 (GMT) Organization: Linux Unlimited Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: rapun.sel.cam.ac.uk Originator: mattheww@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([193.201.200.170]) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed3.jnfs.ja.net!jnfs.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144655 Conrad B Dunkerson wrote: >"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote: > >> Yes really. >> Each featured as a common point, a golden ring of power. > >Yup, each of them had a magic ring. To me, that isn't a particularly >strong incidence of commonality. Even less strong. The ring in the Nibelungenlied isn't magic. -M- ###### From: fredfighter@spamcop.net (Fred the Red Shirt) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 27 Feb 2004 06:36:41 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.46.247.22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1077892601 3883 127.0.0.1 (27 Feb 2004 14:36:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:36:41 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144727 Matthew Woodcraft wrote in message news:... > Conrad B Dunkerson wrote: > >"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote: > > > >> Yes really. > >> Each featured as a common point, a golden ring of power. > > > >Yup, each of them had a magic ring. To me, that isn't a particularly > >strong incidence of commonality. > > Even less strong. The ring in the Nibelungenlied isn't magic. > I don't read German and am not particularly familiar with the various interpretations of the myth. Based on recent reading it would seem that Wagner expanded the importance of the ring making it a ring that gave the bearer power over others. I also remember a phrase translated from somewhere in Germanic mythology to the effect that one will find gold in a stream and whosoever finds that gold and makes it into a ring will (something like) have power over others. Sort of like: "One Ring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them." -- FF ###### From: loisillon@libertysurf.fr (loisillon) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 28 Feb 2004 15:57:18 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.8.25.139 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1078012639 3514 127.0.0.1 (28 Feb 2004 23:57:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:57:19 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!skynet.be!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144836 fredfighter@spamcop.net (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in message news:... > Matthew Woodcraft wrote in message news:... > > Conrad B Dunkerson wrote: > > >"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote: > > > > > >> Yes really. > > >> Each featured as a common point, a golden ring of power. > > > > > >Yup, each of them had a magic ring. To me, that isn't a particularly > > >strong incidence of commonality. > > > > Even less strong. The ring in the Nibelungenlied isn't magic. > > > > I don't read German and am not particularly familiar with the > various interpretations of the myth. Based on recent reading > it would seem that Wagner expanded the importance of the ring > making it a ring that gave the bearer power over others. > > I also remember a phrase translated from somewhere in Germanic > mythology to the effect that one will find gold in a stream and > whosoever finds that gold and makes it into a ring will > (something like) have power over others. > > Sort of like: "One Ring to rule them all and in the darkness > bind them." I agree. And there is some analogy between Wotan and Sauron, both of them have got will of power and desire of the Ring. The main difference was that Wotan ha nothing to do with the origin of the Ring. ###### From: jallan@smrtytrek.com (jallan) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 1 Mar 2004 11:51:08 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 60 Message-ID: <299f1138.0403011151.1d6b8560@posting.google.com> References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.101.137.194 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1078170668 10261 127.0.0.1 (1 Mar 2004 19:51:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:51:08 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!peer1.stngva01.us.to.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144982 fredfighter@spamcop.net (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in message news:... > Matthew Woodcraft wrote in message news:... > > Conrad B Dunkerson wrote: > > >"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote: > > > > > >> Yes really. > > >> Each featured as a common point, a golden ring of power. > > > > > >Yup, each of them had a magic ring. To me, that isn't a particularly > > >strong incidence of commonality. > > > > Even less strong. The ring in the Nibelungenlied isn't magic. > > > > I don't read German and am not particularly familiar with the > various interpretations of the myth. Based on recent reading > it would seem that Wagner expanded the importance of the ring > making it a ring that gave the bearer power over others. Quite right. The ring in the Nibelungenlied is just a Ring, taken from Brunhild when Siegfried subdues her and given to his wife Kriemhild and then held up in triumph by Kriemhild when she quarrels with Brunhild about whose husband is the better man. Brunhild discovers that Siegfried rather than her husband Gunther subued her. The story has come out. Gunther is shamed. Therefore Siegfried must die. The ring is important in the plot, but not at all important itself. There is also a reference to a wand of power in the hoard of gold which Siegfried won from a dragon, a wand which can make its possessor master of the earth. That reference is never followed up. In the Icelandic tales that ring is given a prehistory, making it a cursed ring. It is stolen from a Dwarf by Loki to serve as part of wergild owed by the god Odin for his slaying of Hreidmar's son Ottar. Hreidmar insists on keeping the ring and the associated hoard to himself, whereupon one of his sons Fafnir kills him, changes himself into a dragon, and spends his life gloating on hoad in the wild until Regin, the other son, sets the hero Sigurd onto him. Sigurd kills Fafnir then, warned of Regin's treachery, kills Regin. Then Sigurd wanders off with the ring which he gives to Brunhild, thus setting up the situation which we find in the Nibelungenlied Wagner combined wand with ring and adatped the curse story with numerous changes. > I also remember a phrase translated from somewhere in Germanic > mythology to the effect that one will find gold in a stream and > whosoever finds that gold and makes it into a ring will > (something like) have power over others. Yes. Wagner also threw lust for gold into the mix. It was a very potent mixture when Wagner was through with it. Wagner's Dwarf Alberich has the gold forged into a Ring to rule the world and also has created an helmet of invisibility, which corresponds to a cape of invisibility in the Nibelunglied. In Tolkien the Ring itself causes invisibility. Jim Allan ###### From: "TeaLady (Mari C.)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature Date: 3 Mar 2004 00:12:26 GMT Organization: Lint Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> <7gc_b.78899$IF1.29891@nwrdny03.gnilink.net> <299f1138.0403011151.1d6b8560@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.net (68.170.200.65) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1078272746 59046598 I 68.170.200.65 ([137949]) User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 x-face: 8S?dQ)V'hP@.Lf3Ot.sv"e+zw7tDI4*y7F3ySvbXP%qrfyUVyXTSovH~=C}5]"*4K`e4q_@ ]OG'MH[A!iPTo6O:Ru:FUr,R6|%`H^>U:F)MjpAS&{^3A/Mq=/0ewP)VoUj7E^)Ilg`n%{z=R0d88: O{^)NYf]Ys.D#w`R':o+%gkH,f.bZyYp]`)+}?f8$&{,Gz@z9ou=N]Z}o0CI]q&n\\kz/Op@\cg15@S[z&bb'f`2T,a> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!borium.box.nl!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:145145 jallan@smrtytrek.com (jallan) wrote in news:299f1138.0403011151.1d6b8560@posting.google.com: > Yes. Wagner also threw lust for gold into the mix. It was a > very potent mixture when Wagner was through with it. > Wagner's Dwarf Alberich has the gold forged into a Ring to > rule the world and also has created an helmet of > invisibility, which corresponds to a cape of invisibility in > the Nibelunglied. > In one of the Eddas there is also mention of a lust for gold - brought about somehow when 3 giantesses, sisters, are in Asgard spinning gold for the gods. The gods begin to lust after gold, which is seen to be bad (eventually), and the gods are unhappy, and they eventually ban the sisters from Asgard. Time passes and the lust dwindles and the gods are happy once again. -- mc ###### Message-ID: <4046F3E3.2A5B170A@yahoo-dot.ca> From: Odysseus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,fr-CA,fr,fr-FR,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature References: <22986a60.0402211217.6b933e4e@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 22 Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 09:14:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 142.59.180.6 X-Trace: edtnps89 1078391664 142.59.180.6 (Thu, 04 Mar 2004 02:14:24 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 02:14:24 MST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.glorb.com!newsfeed2.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!edtnps89.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:145295 Smaug wrote: > > Maybe one can think the Sampo (from Kalevala) as such device. > > "The Sampo, the magic mill, is the most fascinating mystery of the epic. It is > the ultimate source of prosperity, a kind of primitive Philosophers's Stone. > Ilmarinen, the smith, whose character has connections to Vulcanus (Hepaestus), > the god of fire, makes the Sampo to have a wife. Väinämoinen, his consultant, > tells him: "If you can forge the Sampo / brighten the bright-lid / you'll get > the maid for your pay / for your work the lovely girl." Ilmarinen pushes the raw > stuffs in the fire, works several days, the smoke thickens to the clouds, and > finally sees the Sampo being born. "And then the new Sampo ground / and the > bright-lid rocked; / ground a binful at twilight - / one binful to eat / another > it ground to sell / and a third to store at home." The Sampo has been > interpreted in many ways: a world pillar or tree, a chest containing a treasure, > or a mint stolen by Vikings from Byzantium as the poet Paavo Haavikko has > suggested." > IIRC the authors of _Hamlet's Mill_ suggest that it's the pole of the ecliptic. -- Odysseus