From: MP Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.3b1 (PPC Mac OS X) Message-ID: Lines: 75 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.18.219.31 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s52 1077313433 24.18.219.31 (Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:43:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:43:53 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:43:53 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn53feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s52.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143976 Here's a question Middle-earth fans might like to debate. Which computer OS and hardware would be used by the various peoples of Middle-earth? Here are my suggestions: Elves: Mac OS X on G5 desktops with big LCD screens, because they're cool and artistic. Favorite software: iTunes and GarageBand. Hobbits: Classic Mac OS on the famous all-in-one-little box Mac because it's small and fun like them. Favorite software: any game that isn't too adventurous or scary. Gandalf: Mac OS X on a 12" Powerbook with dual boot into Linux. Compact but powerful for someone who travels a lot. Set up to run in dozens of languages. Has his notes over hundreds of years and a very full database of contacts. If you try to touch it and he will get very mad at you. Tom Bombadil: No computer for him. A pair of iPods, one for him and one for his Goldberry. Arwen: No computers for her. Has a new mini iPod in pink and a Barbie-like cell phone for talking to her "Sweetie Poo" when he's away, which is almost all the time. Sweetie Poo, I mean Aragorn. Has a Dell laptop that's as broken as his sword. Keeps promising to get it fixed when he becomes King, so he can show Arwen that she's his one and only wallpaper. Never seems to find the time get a bath and for that reason keeps his distance from Arwen. Dwarves: Linux on Intel hardware because it gives the most bang for the buck. These guys are the ultimate hackers. They love to break into and crash Orc web servers. They run most of the online stores and server farms. Ents: Sorry, no computers for them. They're too back to nature. They are considering cell phones though, in the hope that their long-lost Ent-wives will call. Rohan: Windows 3.1 on old Intel 386 boxes with horsey wallpaper. They're not into modern technology. Whatever works is fine for them. When they get a little extra cash, they put it into swords and armor not computers. Favorite software: computer games though, the grimer the better. Their calvary is considering purchasing war game simulations that run on Linux. Minas Tirith: DOS on an original IBM PC. They're backward looking folk. Favorite software: Lotus 123 for bookkeeping. Exception: Faramir has a Mac iBook in his backpack. Orcs: Windows ME on a junky clone. They're evil (hence Microsoft) and stupid (hence ME and the cheap clone). No class at all. If you get junk mail, it's probably from them. Saruman: Orthac has Windows NT servers running on Dell hardware with lots of CAD software to make devilish instruments of war. Unfortunately for him, he had no backup UPS power. When the Ents arrive and began smashing things, he's off-line for good, making life in his tower with Wormtongue very boring, particularly after the Palantir is tossed away. Sauron: A real power user. Runs the latest Windows on a high-end multiprocessor Intel server and is alpha testing Longhorn for Microsoft. He and Bill are REAL close. This guy is unaware of two little hobbit-made viruses that are about to break into his system and bring it crashing down. That's my take. Other comments welcome. --Mike Perry, Seattle http://www.inklingbooks.com/ -- **************** Preorder Lord of the Ring DVDs and videos. http://www.inklingbooks.com/ **************** ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:17:41 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <103d1s8gt0oes0a@corp.supernews.com> References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143980 "MP" wrote in message news:blackhole-4C494D.13435220022004@netnews.comcast.net... > > That's my take. Other comments welcome. > LOL!!!! Very good. Kinda a different take on the "One OS to rule them". T.A. ###### From: Dragan Cvetkovic Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:22:02 -0500 Lines: 23 Sender: me@privacy.net Message-ID: References: Reply-To: dragan_usenet@gmx.net NNTP-Posting-Host: lokrum.tor.soliton.com (199.43.2.74) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077315723 48823620 I 199.43.2.74 ([201942]) User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.2 (usg-unix-v) Cancel-Lock: sha1:MlHQxTTyW6pN+aOul2lM8uhMWqU= Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!lokrum.tor.soliton.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143981 MP writes: > Here's a question Middle-earth fans might like to debate. Which computer > OS and hardware would be used by the various peoples of Middle-earth? [snip] > Rohan: Windows 3.1 on old Intel 386 boxes with horsey wallpaper. They're > not into modern technology. Whatever works is fine for them. Not to start the religious OS wars, but there is a contradiction in above (quoted) text. Change that better to e.g. Novell Netware. Otherwise, an excellent post. Bye, Dragan -- Dragan Cvetkovic, To be or not to be is true. G. Boole No it isn't. L. E. J. Brouwer !!! Sender/From address is bogus. Use reply-to one !!! ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:05:47 -0600 From: "blanny" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:05:45 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.180.165.78 X-AuthenticatedUsername: dvogler@dls.net X-Trace: sv3-ak6CG9+YCITLb6WuyGoy5RjjzNWdWPX+Iu8fJgUwfQfcLzvUMHRjGnXe6HZGNZKLm3KnPHWdZfma2qm!enQLiQ96C6dmawBMI68MGKN93pxos7FXhB/fm69oNa/LHwNFwuLSwuwrJXif+qSaggBo509b X-Complaints-To: abuse@dls.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@dls.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!news.newsland.it!news2.telebyte.nl!news.glorb.com!news.moat.net!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.dls.net!news.dls.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143984 "MP" wrote in message news:blackhole-4C494D.13435220022004@netnews.comcast.net... > Here's a question Middle-earth fans might like to debate. Which computer > OS and hardware would be used by the various peoples of Middle-earth? The Valar run FormenOS ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:13:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077318792 82.43.166.216 (Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:13:12 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:13:12 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!proxad.net!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143986 blanny wrote: > "MP" wrote in message > news:blackhole-4C494D.13435220022004@netnews.comcast.net... >> Here's a question Middle-earth fans might like to debate. Which >> computer OS and hardware would be used by the various peoples of >> Middle-earth? > > The Valar run FormenOS What OS does Eru run? ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:16:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077319008 82.43.166.216 (Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:16:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:16:48 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143987 blanny wrote: > "MP" wrote in message > news:blackhole-4C494D.13435220022004@netnews.comcast.net... >> Here's a question Middle-earth fans might like to debate. Which >> computer OS and hardware would be used by the various peoples of >> Middle-earth? > > The Valar run FormenOS And I've just got the joke... Though Valar ---> Feanor surely? ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Lines: 45 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <%%wZb.4224$Cz4.36577428@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:47:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077320827 82.43.166.216 (Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:47:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:47:07 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143991 MP wrote: > Here's a question Middle-earth fans might like to debate. Which > computer OS and hardware would be used by the various peoples of > Middle-earth? Following the dreadful Formen-OS pun, here's a bit from the the index to the Silmarillion on the meaning of OS: '- os' means fortress (as does -ost), as seen in Formenos, Mandos, and (maybe) Armenelos. So the Valar use Mand-OS. Feanor used Formen-OS. The Numenoreans used Armenel-OS. Mangling Tolkien's languages a bit more, we have: Gil-galad's Aigl-OS. [actually '-los' is snow] The Eldar used Edhil-OS(T). [Ost-in Edhil] The Laiquendi used Siriand-OS. [Land of the Seven Rivers] Anduin used Raur-OS. [actually '-ros' is spray] Turin hacked into Saer-OS. Maedhros was an OS. And Elros was an OS. Can Maedhros and Saeros be translated, or are they just names? Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: Een Wilde Ier Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 02:31:48 +0000 Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.46.85.32 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077330705 48350160 I 194.46.85.32 ([121201]) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031013 Thunderbird/0.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!194.46.85.32!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144000 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > blanny wrote: > >>"MP" wrote in message >>news:blackhole-4C494D.13435220022004@netnews.comcast.net... >> >>>Here's a question Middle-earth fans might like to debate. Which >>>computer OS and hardware would be used by the various peoples of >>>Middle-earth? >> >>The Valar run FormenOS > > > What OS does Eru run? LetItBeOS. ###### From: Shanahan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:19:04 -0500 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: max1-ra-34.redsuspenders.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: max1-ra-34.redsuspenders.com X-Trace: news.netacc.net 1077340309 208.3.188.96 (21 Feb 2004 00:11:49 -0500) X-Original-Trace: 21 Feb 2004 00:11:49 -0500, max1-ra-34.redsuspenders.com Lines: 17 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator4-cogent.newsfeed.com!propagator2-sterling!in.nntp.be!news.codefab.com!att541!ip.att.net!news.netacc.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144009 On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:43:53 GMT, MP wrote: >Hobbits: Classic Mac OS on the famous all-in-one-little box Mac because >it's small and fun like them. Favorite software: any game that isn't too >adventurous or scary. Hobbits' favorite software would be *genealogy* software, of course! "Hobbits delighted in such things, if they were accurate; they liked to have books filled with things they already knew, set out fair and square." - Ciaran S. -------------------------------------- "Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape...You need to believe in things that aren't true. Else how can they *become*?" - t.pratchett ###### From: coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:31:59 -0800 Organization: eden tos random Message-ID: References: User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.3b1 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!mair_fheal Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144013 In article , Shanahan wrote: > On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:43:53 GMT, MP > wrote: > >Hobbits: Classic Mac OS on the famous all-in-one-little box Mac because > >it's small and fun like them. Favorite software: any game that isn't too > >adventurous or scary. > > Hobbits' favorite software would be *genealogy* software, of course! > "Hobbits delighted in such things, if they were accurate; they liked to > have books filled with things they already knew, set out fair and square." so like are you saying they originated the lds database? http://www.familysearch.org/ ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 07:35:20 -0600 From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 08:35:24 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.171.254.120 X-Trace: sv3-zOl1osIzArUoOpQlSpoKY7O/c5xSr28OkxEaeMh80CxfOZ5dXNG6Gyp/G3dDswnkJzhn1EN0nXd4RMU!UB+tMJVjN9ZTeL+48hUP6dRhOM4B7SDkhbwjiedBaQigiuA43x1pPrcFE0UUEyMW2CPiNGIgvyAv!UEODGTJM9UD01Mll/CY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@adelphia.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@adelphia.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out.tin.it!news-in.tin.it!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.adelphia.com!news.adelphia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144042 "Een Wilde Ier" wrote in message news:c16fuh$1e3gug$1@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de... > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > > > blanny wrote: > > > >>"MP" wrote in message > >>news:blackhole-4C494D.13435220022004@netnews.comcast.net... > >> > >>>Here's a question Middle-earth fans might like to debate. Which > >>>computer OS and hardware would be used by the various peoples of > >>>Middle-earth? > >> > >>The Valar run FormenOS > > > > > > What OS does Eru run? > > LetItBeOS. > :0) T.A. ###### Reply-To: "Trade Surplus" From: "Trade Surplus" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Lines: 46 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.159.146.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr31.news.prodigy.com 1077385418 ST000 66.159.146.25 (Sat, 21 Feb 2004 12:43:38 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 12:43:38 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: SCSYQNONPZU]BRLY@BCBNQ@@AZOZ@GXOXB_J]Q]KEYUNDQUCCNSUAACY@L[ZX__HGFD]JBJNSFXTOOGA_VWY^_HG@FW_HUTHOH]TBPGCO\P^PLP^@[GLHUK@WLECKFVL^TYG[@RMWQXIWM[SDDYWNLG_G[_BWUCHFY_Y@AS@Q[B\APPF@DCZM_PG_VSCPQZM Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:43:38 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.telebyte.nl!news2.telebyte.nl!news.glorb.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr31.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!92eb7b30!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144064 "MP" wrote ... > Here's a question Middle-earth fans might like to debate. Which computer > OS and hardware would be used by the various peoples of Middle-earth? > > Dwarves: Linux on Intel hardware because it gives the most bang for the > buck. These guys are the ultimate hackers. They love to break into and > crash Orc web servers. They run most of the online stores and server > farms. Nah, Dwarves like OS/400. Functional, robust and plenty large enough for centralised royal control over a mountain hold, though not big enough to ever unite the Dwarves into a single empire. Runs its own specialist software, not copies of the shoddy work of other OS's. Most important, is completely incomprehensible to and incompatible with non-Dwarves. > Minas Tirith: DOS on an original IBM PC. They're backward looking folk. > Favorite software: Lotus 123 for bookkeeping. Exception: Faramir has a > Mac iBook in his backpack. Disagree on this one too. Minas Tirith runs AIX. Descended from the evildoers of the last age, the faithful broke away from the proprietary OS of the King's Men and created a new, more open and elf-friendly OS. This they built in Minas Anor, the tower of the Sun. However they couldn't escape their Adunaic heritage and as the years passed they dwindled into a lesser version which they called AIX. The implication from this being that Black Numenoreans use OS/2. When the powerful, though evil, armada of Ar-Pharazon's OS/390 mainframes was destroyed by the Valar, some few Numenoreans of the King's Men escaped and kept to their old evil ways. However their power was mostly spent and they became a feeble race of PC users running OS/2. As the third age progressed, the Black Numenorean PC users mingled with other evil men and now nearly all have sworn allegiance to the new evil overlord and run Windows. > Saruman: Orthac has Windows NT servers running on Dell hardware with > lots of CAD software to make devilish instruments of war. Unfortunately > for him, he had no backup UPS power. When the Ents arrive and began > smashing things, he's off-line for good, making life in his tower with > Wormtongue very boring, particularly after the Palantir is tossed away. I agree with the Wild Irishman that Saruman is definitely a SCO Unix user, the treacherous bastard. And we thought he was on the side of good. Trade. ###### From: "Jon Meltzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Lines: 9 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:40:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.121.140.213 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net 1077576040 165.121.140.213 (Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:40:40 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:40:40 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!a91cc34a!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144311 "MP" wrote in message news:blackhole-4C494D.13435220022004@netnews.comcast.net... > Ents: Sorry, no computers for them. They're too back to nature. No. IBM 370 mainframes with punch card input. ###### Reply-To: "Raven" From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:38:05 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.69 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1077581362 195.82.196.69 (Tue, 24 Feb 2004 01:09:22 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 01:09:22 CET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144338 "Jon Meltzer" skrev i en meddelelse news:Ijv_b.18720$hm4.11044@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net... > "MP" wrote in message > news:blackhole-4C494D.13435220022004@netnews.comcast.net... > > Ents: Sorry, no computers for them. They're too back to nature. > No. IBM 370 mainframes with punch card input. Punch cards?? Ents?? And precisely what are punch cards made of? Holló. ###### From: coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:32:53 -0800 Organization: eden tos random Message-ID: References: User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.3b1 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 32 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!mair_fheal Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144341 In article , "Raven" wrote: > "Jon Meltzer" skrev i en > meddelelse news:Ijv_b.18720$hm4.11044@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net... > > > "MP" wrote in message > > news:blackhole-4C494D.13435220022004@netnews.comcast.net... > > > > Ents: Sorry, no computers for them. They're too back to nature. > > > No. IBM 370 mainframes with punch card input. > > Punch cards?? Ents?? And precisely what are punch cards made of? have you ever used an o26 keypunch? punchcards are not the victims in this enterprise they are the suicide chaff jamming the read and punch stations overflowing cuffs reducing the humans mewling crying screaming shells of former humanity have you ever cleaned up a room after a reel of high speed paper tape comes off during a read? have you ever unjammed a high speed punch card reader with ten cards accordion folded into an eighth inch? have you ever cleared a jammed line printer wih a hundred inkstained pages shoved underneath the print train? damn the trees i steal chromium iron oxide from the dwarves any day ###### From: Hasmonean Tazmanian User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 116 Message-ID: <5mC_b.52228$RTW1.46676@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 06:41:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.139.135.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1077604865 63.139.135.29 (Tue, 24 Feb 2004 01:41:05 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 01:41:05 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!dimensional.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!news.moat.net!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.usenetserver.com!cyclone01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!12dc6cf53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144373 MP wrote: > Here's a question Middle-earth fans might like to debate. Which computer > OS and hardware would be used by the various peoples of Middle-earth? > > Here are my suggestions: > > Elves: Mac OS X on G5 desktops with big LCD screens, because they're > cool and artistic. Favorite software: iTunes and GarageBand. > > Hobbits: Classic Mac OS on the famous all-in-one-little box Mac because > it's small and fun like them. Favorite software: any game that isn't too > adventurous or scary. > > Gandalf: Mac OS X on a 12" Powerbook with dual boot into Linux. Compact > but powerful for someone who travels a lot. Set up to run in dozens of > languages. Has his notes over hundreds of years and a very full database > of contacts. If you try to touch it and he will get very mad at you. > > Tom Bombadil: No computer for him. A pair of iPods, one for him and one > for his Goldberry. Tom gets a BlackBerry pager. > > Arwen: No computers for her. Has a new mini iPod in pink and a > Barbie-like cell phone for talking to her "Sweetie Poo" when he's away, > which is almost all the time. > > Sweetie Poo, I mean Aragorn. Has a Dell laptop that's as broken as his > sword. Keeps promising to get it fixed when he becomes King, so he can > show Arwen that she's his one and only wallpaper. Never seems to find > the time get a bath and for that reason keeps his distance from Arwen. > He has a Grid laptop with a realtime operating system and killer software, and the launch codes for a nuclear missle. But his ancestor Isildur threw the laptop at Sauron without shutting down cleanly, and now the hard disk has an unrecoverable error on the boot sector which makes it impossible to boot up. The elves could do a bit of magic to recover the boot sector, ... but there are no elves young enough to be hackers any more, and they will have to wait for 2000 years before they get some new blood, and elves take forevvvvver to go through adolescent rebellion and on to hacking boot sectors for long lost messiahs. > Dwarves: Linux on Intel hardware because it gives the most bang for the > buck. These guys are the ultimate hackers. They love to break into and > crash Orc web servers. They run most of the online stores and server > farms. Dwarves would use DOS. Dwarf operating system. Just efficient enough for them, but not too fancy shmancy to get in the way of their single-tasking ungraphical applications. > > Ents: Sorry, no computers for them. They're too back to nature. They are > considering cell phones though, in the hope that their long-lost > Ent-wives will call. They use very ****slow**** bug infested computers, programmed in Old Lisp, and ((((((lambda lemma ( ( ( assert statement ( equallytrue( lambda function x ) ( is anything x ) ) (defun lambda time ) ( x ( lambda defun takes ) ( yada yada yada ) ( eval x ( long long long ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) translation: Ents never use any software anything unless they can write it in Lisp, and saying anything in Old Lisp takes a long time. > > Rohan: Windows 3.1 on old Intel 386 boxes with horsey wallpaper. They're > not into modern technology. Whatever works is fine for them. When they > get a little extra cash, they put it into swords and armor not > computers. Favorite software: computer games though, the grimer the > better. Their calvary is considering purchasing war game simulations > that run on Linux. Linux for them. They love their own computers as much as nomads love their animals. > > Minas Tirith: DOS on an original IBM PC. They're backward looking folk. LOL. Mainframes. > Favorite software: Lotus 123 for bookkeeping. Exception: Faramir has a > Mac iBook in his backpack. > > Orcs: Windows ME on a junky clone. They're evil (hence Microsoft) and > stupid (hence ME and the cheap clone). No class at all. If you get junk > mail, it's probably from them. > Orcs use Oracle. > Saruman: Orthac has Windows NT servers running on Dell hardware with > lots of CAD software to make devilish instruments of war. Unfortunately > for him, he had no backup UPS power. When the Ents arrive and began > smashing things, he's off-line for good, making life in his tower with > Wormtongue very boring, particularly after the Palantir is tossed away. > Saruman uses linux server farms ... > Sauron: A real power user. Runs the latest Windows on a high-end > multiprocessor Intel server and is alpha testing Longhorn for Microsoft. > He and Bill are REAL close. This guy is unaware of two little > hobbit-made viruses that are about to break into his system and bring it > crashing down. > > That's my take. Other comments welcome. > > --Mike Perry, Seattle > http://www.inklingbooks.com/ > ###### From: "Gorbag" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <5mC_b.52228$RTW1.46676@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:35:43 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.127.175.68 X-Complaints-To: news@ext.ray.com X-Trace: bos-service2.ext.raytheon.com 1077658545 138.127.175.68 (Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:35:45 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:35:45 EST Organization: Raytheon Company Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!cyclone.swbell.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!bos-service2.ext.raytheon.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144428 "Hasmonean Tazmanian" wrote in message news:5mC_b.52228$RTW1.46676@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... > > > MP wrote: > > Here's a question Middle-earth fans might like to debate. Which computer > > OS and hardware would be used by the various peoples of Middle-earth? > > > They use very ****slow**** bug infested computers, programmed in Old > Lisp, and ((((((lambda lemma ( ( ( assert statement ( equallytrue( > lambda function x ) ( is anything x ) ) (defun lambda time ) ( x ( > lambda defun takes ) ( yada yada yada ) ( eval x ( long long long ) ) ) > ) ) ) ) ) ) > > translation: Ents never use any software anything unless they can write > it in Lisp, and saying anything in Old Lisp takes a long time. I'd expect Ents to use assembler, as then it really would take a long time to say anything. Lisp is the language of the Valar, using Symbolics workstations (infinite precision arithmetic, ability of the code to morph and execute itself, etc. not to mention hardware supported type checking.) Lisp is of course the only language that could have created the two trees, CAR and CDR, the source of all light. ###### From: robert@halmyre.abel.co.uk (Halmyre) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Date: 25 Feb 2004 00:52:16 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: <250f136c.0402250052.17b48aeb@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 137.195.176.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1077699137 15283 127.0.0.1 (25 Feb 2004 08:52:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:52:17 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144486 MP wrote in message news:... > Here's a question Middle-earth fans might like to debate. Which computer > OS and hardware would be used by the various peoples of Middle-earth? > > There's a reference in 'The Scouring of the Shire' to Ted Sandyman supervising a mill full of grinding gears, pouring out filth. So Saruman could presumably be hosting a hobbit-porn website on a Babbage Difference Engine. Halmyre ###### From: Hasmonean Tazmanian User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? References: <5mC_b.52228$RTW1.46676@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 Message-ID: <9G4%b.12218$Qg7.1355@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:10:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.139.135.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1077729029 63.139.135.29 (Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:10:29 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:10:29 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsfeeds-atl2!news.usenetserver.com!cyclone01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!12dc6cf53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144524 Gorbag wrote: > "Hasmonean Tazmanian" wrote in message > news:5mC_b.52228$RTW1.46676@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... > >> >>MP wrote: >> >>>Here's a question Middle-earth fans might like to debate. Which computer >>>OS and hardware would be used by the various peoples of Middle-earth? >>> >> >>They use very ****slow**** bug infested computers, programmed in Old >>Lisp, and ((((((lambda lemma ( ( ( assert statement ( equallytrue( >>lambda function x ) ( is anything x ) ) (defun lambda time ) ( x ( >>lambda defun takes ) ( yada yada yada ) ( eval x ( long long long ) ) ) >>) ) ) ) ) ) >> >>translation: Ents never use any software anything unless they can write >>it in Lisp, and saying anything in Old Lisp takes a long time. > > > I'd expect Ents to use assembler, as then it really would take a long time > to say anything. > > Lisp is the language of the Valar, using Symbolics workstations (infinite > precision arithmetic, ability of the code to morph and execute itself, etc. > not to mention hardware supported type checking.) Lisp is of course the only > language that could have created the two trees, CAR and CDR, the source of > all light. > Did you just get that from a google search on LISP? But anyways, assembler as something only the Valar could use would be neat. I missed something obvious: Ents use Windows E(NT). The Ents are a legacy application though, because they lost the Entwives (source code). So they can only run themselves, but make new additions to themselves. > > Hasan ###### From: "Gorbag" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <5mC_b.52228$RTW1.46676@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <9G4%b.12218$Qg7.1355@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? Lines: 53 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:41:20 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.127.175.68 X-Complaints-To: news@ext.ray.com X-Trace: bos-service2.ext.raytheon.com 1077745245 138.127.175.68 (Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:40:45 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:40:45 EST Organization: Raytheon Company Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!cyclone.swbell.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!bos-service2.ext.raytheon.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144548 "Hasmonean Tazmanian" wrote in message news:9G4%b.12218$Qg7.1355@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... > > > Gorbag wrote: > > "Hasmonean Tazmanian" wrote in message > > news:5mC_b.52228$RTW1.46676@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... > > > >> > >>MP wrote: > >> > >>>Here's a question Middle-earth fans might like to debate. Which computer > >>>OS and hardware would be used by the various peoples of Middle-earth? > >>> > >> > >>They use very ****slow**** bug infested computers, programmed in Old > >>Lisp, and ((((((lambda lemma ( ( ( assert statement ( equallytrue( > >>lambda function x ) ( is anything x ) ) (defun lambda time ) ( x ( > >>lambda defun takes ) ( yada yada yada ) ( eval x ( long long long ) ) ) > >>) ) ) ) ) ) > >> > >>translation: Ents never use any software anything unless they can write > >>it in Lisp, and saying anything in Old Lisp takes a long time. > > > > > > I'd expect Ents to use assembler, as then it really would take a long time > > to say anything. > > > > Lisp is the language of the Valar, using Symbolics workstations (infinite > > precision arithmetic, ability of the code to morph and execute itself, etc. > > not to mention hardware supported type checking.) Lisp is of course the only > > language that could have created the two trees, CAR and CDR, the source of > > all light. > > > > Did you just get that from a google search on LISP? No. What are you implying? I used Symbolics machines myself in the day. I've been using Lisp since the 70s and its the only language I've programed in for quite some years now. If I were feeling nasty, I'd note that your "code" isn't even close to actual lisp, other than you used parenthesis and some of the predefined atoms (many of which were not in "old" Lisp, i.e. Lisp 1.5). If you knew Lisp you should be able to at least write a self-evaluating function... ###### From: Hasmonean Tazmanian User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Which Computer OSs in Middle-earth? References: <5mC_b.52228$RTW1.46676@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <9G4%b.12218$Qg7.1355@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 88 Message-ID: <5d9%b.13352$Qg7.13308@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:20:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.139.135.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1077747649 63.139.135.29 (Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:20:49 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:20:49 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.glorb.com!newsfeed.mountaincable.net!cyclone01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!12dc6cf53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144559 Gorbag wrote: > "Hasmonean Tazmanian" wrote in message > news:9G4%b.12218$Qg7.1355@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... > >> >>Gorbag wrote: >> >>>"Hasmonean Tazmanian" wrote in message >>>news:5mC_b.52228$RTW1.46676@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... >>> >>> >>>>MP wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Here's a question Middle-earth fans might like to debate. Which > > computer > >>>>>OS and hardware would be used by the various peoples of Middle-earth? >>>>> >>>> >>>>They use very ****slow**** bug infested computers, programmed in Old >>>>Lisp, and ((((((lambda lemma ( ( ( assert statement ( equallytrue( >>>>lambda function x ) ( is anything x ) ) (defun lambda time ) ( x ( >>>>lambda defun takes ) ( yada yada yada ) ( eval x ( long long long ) ) ) >>>>) ) ) ) ) ) >>>> >>>>translation: Ents never use any software anything unless they can write >>>>it in Lisp, and saying anything in Old Lisp takes a long time. >>> >>> >>>I'd expect Ents to use assembler, as then it really would take a long > > time > >>>to say anything. >>> >>>Lisp is the language of the Valar, using Symbolics workstations > > (infinite > >>>precision arithmetic, ability of the code to morph and execute itself, > > etc. > >>>not to mention hardware supported type checking.) Lisp is of course the > > only > >>>language that could have created the two trees, CAR and CDR, the source > > of > >>>all light. >>> >> >>Did you just get that from a google search on LISP? > > > No. What are you implying? I used Symbolics machines myself in the day. I've > been using Lisp since the 70s and its the only language I've programed in > for quite some years now. If I were feeling nasty, I'd note that your "code" > isn't even close to actual lisp, other than you used parenthesis and some of > the predefined atoms (many of which were not in "old" Lisp, i.e. Lisp 1.5). > If you knew Lisp you should be able to at least write a self-evaluating > function... > > You're right, I don't know lisp, ... I rushed the example late at night, and then hit the send button before I could revise it (to make it realistic.) More generally my LISP is somewhat home taught. Once I tried to learn some in my spare time but I didn't practise it enough. But as for my comment,... it's just that CAR and CDR don't both return lists (only CDR does) so I didn't think that they represented trees....not much else. What type of programming do you do with lisp? Do you still find it useful even with newer logic based programming languages out there? I'd love to learn it and use it in some domain-specific company-internal applications. Hasan