From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 124 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:19:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.163.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1076984375 82.43.163.4 (Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:19:35 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:19:35 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-peer.gradwell.net!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143622 There has been some recent debate here about the precise differences between Hobbits and Humans/Men (the Little Folk and the Big Folk). I'd like to explore just how different the races/species (whatever you want to call them) of Middle-earth are. I'd like to restrict this to just Elves/Men/Hobbits. The question arose as I was re-reading the Silmarillion, and the divisions between the Eldar are described, resulting in the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri. (Remember that the Eldar are those that began the journey to Aman). The question is: Are the differences between the Elven kindreds (the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri) as great as the differences between Hobbits and Men? The question could be rephrased this way: Were all Elves created equal, and the kindreds evolved from there? Were all Humans created equal and Men and Hobbits evolved from there? I'm considering the biological and cultural differences between all these groups of Eruhini (Children of Illuvatar): 1) Size/Appearance Were the Elven kindreds more alike in appearance than Hobbits and Men? Could you tell the Elves apart by looking or is it just an accident that three leaders were chosen to go to Aman, and it was only thereafter that their fates diverged so dramatically? Men and Hobbits were easily distinguished by size. [Remember that Elves all seem alike to mortals, and to the Elves, all the mortals look alike as well. There is a very apt and humorous if rather rude quote from the elf Lindir in Many Meetings: "...to sheep, other sheep no doubt appear different."] 2) Genetics/Interbreeding We know that the Elven kindreds could interbreed. But was it a common event or relatively rare? Presumably Hobbits and Men could interbreed, but they seem to be geographically and culturally isolated, except in Bree. In the biological sense of being mortal and immortal, there is no difference between Men and Hobbits, and no difference between the Elven kindreds. 3) Geographic location There seems to have been more mixing between the Elven kindreds in the beginning, but they later formed distinct communities in Aman. Maybe Men and Hobbits once mixed more in the distant past, though Hobbits and Men seemed to have mixed only rarely in recorded history. 4) History The history of the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri seems to have contributed much to their final make-up. An initial inbuilt curiosity and courage (Vanyar and Noldor) contrasted with a more timid, stay-at-home attitude (Teleri). They ended up on Tanequetil (Vanyar), Tuna (Noldor) and Alqualonde and the Lonely Isle (Teleri), and also on the Hither Shores (Sindar, exiled Noldor). The history of Hobbits is remarkably similar, with different strains arising, but their relation to Men is not well documented. For Men there is a similar division into Three Houses of the Edain, and an underdeveloped mass of other human races (compare with the Avari). 5) Language The Elven kindreds (especially the Teleri and Sindar) end up with different languages due to long ages apart. For Elves, a long time really *is* a long time! Similar things happen to Men, but Hobbits seem to have always used the languages of Men. 6) Food Hobbit food habits are well known! It seems that Men, Elves and Hobbits could all eat the same food, and there are few differences here. 7) Individual behaviour 8) Social behaviour 9) Art and culture There appears to be a wide diversity of behaviours and cultures among Elves and Men and Hobbits. There seem to be as many similarities between Men and Hobbits as there are differences, and the same can be said of the Elven kindreds. I would suggest that even the greatest differences between the Elven kindreds, such as between the Vanyar and the Teleri/Sindar/Avari, are purely cultural, but some of the observed differences between Hobbits and Men are biological in origin, mainly due to the size difference. The most interesting non-cultural distinction between Eldarin elves appears to be the division into Calequendi and Moriquendi, the Elves of the Light and the Dark (though not all of the Moriquendi were Eldar). Seeing the Light of the Two Trees seems to impart an air of divinity and spiritual power to an Elf. Compare the Vanyar with the Avari. In this sense, in a purely spiritual assessment, it could be said that the 'spiritual' stature varies as much among the Elven kindreds as the 'physical' stature varies between Men and Hobbits. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard "The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power. [Frodo: 'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'] Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes." - Gandalf and Frodo on the lords of the Eldar (Many Meetings - FotR) ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:13:23 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q102.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1076991660 43289 212.205.254.102 (17 Feb 2004 04:21:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 04:21:00 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator4-cogent.newsfeed.com!propagator2-sterling!in.nntp.be!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143630 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:XSeYb.762$I16.7658548@news-text.cableinet.net... > > The question arose as I was re-reading the Silmarillion, and the > divisions between the Eldar are described, resulting in the Vanyar, > Noldor and Teleri. (Remember that the Eldar are those that began the > journey to Aman). > > The question is: > > Are the differences between the Elven kindreds (the Vanyar, the Noldor, > and the Teleri) as great as the differences between Hobbits and Men? They are about as great as the difference between Gondorians and Rohirrim. > I'm considering the biological and cultural differences between all > these groups of Eruhini (Children of Illuvatar): > > 1) Size/Appearance > > Were the Elven kindreds more alike in appearance than Hobbits and Men? Yeah. > Could you tell the Elves apart by looking or is it just an accident that > three leaders were chosen to go to Aman, and it was only thereafter that > their fates diverged so dramatically? The division preexisted the departure to Aman, as there were in origin three first-awaken elves that took followers to them. > Men and Hobbits were easily distinguished by size. > > [Remember that Elves all seem alike to mortals, I don't remember that. > and to the Elves, all > the mortals look alike as well. There is a very apt and humorous if > rather rude quote from the elf Lindir in Many Meetings: "...to sheep, > other sheep no doubt appear different."] And that's absolute nonsense. Lindir wasn't talking about *looks* when he said he couldn't tell apart the difference between hobbits and men, he was talking about the kind of different psychology that'd lead to different artistic expression in a poem. Elves could clearly tell apart hobbits from Men, where looks are concerned. > 2) Genetics/Interbreeding > > We know that the Elven kindreds could interbreed. But was it a common > event or relatively rare? Well just go ahead and list all the elven pairings you find and I'll bet you'll find about as many inter-kindred pairings as intra-kindred ones. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s01 1076991974 24.62.143.251 (Tue, 17 Feb 2004 04:26:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 04:26:14 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 04:26:14 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn53feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143631 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > We know that the Elven kindreds could interbreed. But was it a common > event or relatively rare? Presumably Hobbits and Men could interbreed, > but they seem to be geographically and culturally isolated, except in > Bree. Only three Elven-Human matings are recorded in the Tolkien Canon, so it is rare. The interbreedings were fertile indicating some genetic compatibility, but the aging rates indicate a divergent biology. If you refer to a differnt story like, that of the Star Trek universe, the Vulcans are counterpart to the Elves. 1. They live much longer than humans. 2. They can sense the existence of God directly (see -Spock's World- by John Ford) 3. They are telpathic and humans are not. 4. Their fea (in ST it is called the Katrah) can survive their physical death and be transfered to another. In the Star Trek canon there were two successful human-Vulcan matings. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:50:29 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q102.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1076993887 46357 212.205.254.102 (17 Feb 2004 04:58:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 04:58:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!63.218.45.11.MISMATCH!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator4-cogent.newsfeed.com!propagator2-sterling!in.nntp.be!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143632 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message news:GJgYb.327097$I06.3405729@attbi_s01... > > > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > > > We know that the Elven kindreds could interbreed. But was it a common > > event or relatively rare? Presumably Hobbits and Men could interbreed, > > but they seem to be geographically and culturally isolated, except in > > Bree. > > Only three Elven-Human matings are recorded in the Tolkien Canon, so it > is rare. You are talking about Elven-Human matings. He's asking about Elven-elven matings. Aris Katsaris ###### From: Alison Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Reply-To: news.poster@ntlworld.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:54:43 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.255.204.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net 1077015284 62.255.204.131 (Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:54:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:54:44 GMT Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143637 On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 04:26:14 GMT, "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > >Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > >> We know that the Elven kindreds could interbreed. But was it a common >> event or relatively rare? Presumably Hobbits and Men could interbreed, >> but they seem to be geographically and culturally isolated, except in >> Bree. > >Only three Elven-Human matings are recorded in the Tolkien Canon, so it >is rare. The interbreedings were fertile indicating some genetic >compatibility, but the aging rates indicate a divergent biology. Strictly speaking, only three matings between the *Eldar* and humans are recorded. There is reference to other matings between humans and non-Eldarin elves, such as the silvan elf from Lorien who married a prince of Dol Amroth and then left him. -- Alison ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Message-ID: <1ToYb.50710$_44.48258@attbi_s52> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s52 1077025341 24.62.143.251 (Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:42:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:42:21 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:42:21 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!canoe.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn54feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s52.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143645 Alison wrote: > non-Eldarin elves, such as the silvan elf from Lorien who married a > prince of Dol Amroth and then left him. It just goes to show you. These mixed marriages rarely work out. Bob Kolker ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:26:39 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!news-peer0-test!btnet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143646 It seems "Robert J. Kolker" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Only three Elven-Human matings are recorded in the Tolkien Canon, so it >is rare. Only three matings of humans and _High_Elves_ are recorded. We know there were others between Elves and Men -- look at Legolas' first words to the Price of Dol Amroth. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:30:59 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <10349debotrqq2a@corp.supernews.com> References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 154 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143647 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:XSeYb.762$I16.7658548@news-text.cableinet.net... > There has been some recent debate here about the precise differences > between Hobbits and Humans/Men (the Little Folk and the Big Folk). I'd > like to explore just how different the races/species (whatever you want > to call them) of Middle-earth are. I'd like to restrict this to just > Elves/Men/Hobbits. > > The question arose as I was re-reading the Silmarillion, and the > divisions between the Eldar are described, resulting in the Vanyar, > Noldor and Teleri. (Remember that the Eldar are those that began the > journey to Aman). > > The question is: > > Are the differences between the Elven kindreds (the Vanyar, the Noldor, > and the Teleri) as great as the differences between Hobbits and Men? > > The question could be rephrased this way: > > Were all Elves created equal, and the kindreds evolved from there? > Were all Humans created equal and Men and Hobbits evolved from there? > > I'm considering the biological and cultural differences between all > these groups of Eruhini (Children of Illuvatar): > > 1) Size/Appearance > > Were the Elven kindreds more alike in appearance than Hobbits and Men? > Could you tell the Elves apart by looking or is it just an accident that > three leaders were chosen to go to Aman, and it was only thereafter that > their fates diverged so dramatically? > > Men and Hobbits were easily distinguished by size. > > [Remember that Elves all seem alike to mortals, and to the Elves, all > the mortals look alike as well. There is a very apt and humorous if > rather rude quote from the elf Lindir in Many Meetings: "...to sheep, > other sheep no doubt appear different."] > > 2) Genetics/Interbreeding > > We know that the Elven kindreds could interbreed. But was it a common > event or relatively rare? Presumably Hobbits and Men could interbreed, Could they? I have mentioned the more obvious physical differences between Hobbits and Men in other threads, such as size ( least important ), pointy ears and furry feet (in our world, possibly explainable as a mutancy or sport, but unlikely in Tolkien's Middle Earth, where creation is more significant than evolution) and their incredible physical and emotional toughness in comparison to other races, but there are a couple of other physical differences--a longer childhood period, in which the young Hobbit does not reach adolescence until they reach their twenties, and a high metabolism, which would be necessary for them to consume as much food as they do without being morbidly obese. I have no doubt that somewhere far back in history there was an ancestor who was of the race of Man, but I feel strongly, that whether Tolkien tells us about it or not, there must have been a *Someone*, not necessarily Illuvatar, perhaps one of the Valar, such as Yavanna or one of her Maiar, who *interfered* and *created* the race of Hobbits. This would not alter their fea; in that sense they would yet be human, but they would now be a separate race to Man. This kind of interference was not unheard of in Middle Earth, and the "bad guys" went in for it in a big way. (e.g. Orcs, trolls, etc.) And the "good guys" occasionally did things for reasons that only became apparent in the playing out of History. Barbara > but they seem to be geographically and culturally isolated, except in > Bree. > > In the biological sense of being mortal and immortal, there is no > difference between Men and Hobbits, and no difference between the Elven > kindreds. > > 3) Geographic location > > There seems to have been more mixing between the Elven kindreds in the > beginning, but they later formed distinct communities in Aman. Maybe Men > and Hobbits once mixed more in the distant past, though Hobbits and Men > seemed to have mixed only rarely in recorded history. > > 4) History > > The history of the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri seems to have contributed > much to their final make-up. An initial inbuilt curiosity and courage > (Vanyar and Noldor) contrasted with a more timid, stay-at-home attitude > (Teleri). They ended up on Tanequetil (Vanyar), Tuna (Noldor) and > Alqualonde and the Lonely Isle (Teleri), and also on the Hither Shores > (Sindar, exiled Noldor). > > The history of Hobbits is remarkably similar, with different strains > arising, but their relation to Men is not well documented. For Men there > is a similar division into Three Houses of the Edain, and an > underdeveloped mass of other human races (compare with the Avari). > > 5) Language > > The Elven kindreds (especially the Teleri and Sindar) end up with > different languages due to long ages apart. For Elves, a long time > really *is* a long time! Similar things happen to Men, but Hobbits seem > to have always used the languages of Men. > > 6) Food > > Hobbit food habits are well known! It seems that Men, Elves and Hobbits > could all eat the same food, and there are few differences here. > > 7) Individual behaviour > 8) Social behaviour > 9) Art and culture > > There appears to be a wide diversity of behaviours and cultures among > Elves and Men and Hobbits. There seem to be as many similarities between > Men and Hobbits as there are differences, and the same can be said of > the Elven kindreds. > > I would suggest that even the greatest differences between the Elven > kindreds, such as between the Vanyar and the Teleri/Sindar/Avari, are > purely cultural, but some of the observed differences between Hobbits > and Men are biological in origin, mainly due to the size difference. > > The most interesting non-cultural distinction between Eldarin elves > appears to be the division into Calequendi and Moriquendi, the Elves of > the Light and the Dark (though not all of the Moriquendi were Eldar). > Seeing the Light of the Two Trees seems to impart an air of divinity and > spiritual power to an Elf. Compare the Vanyar with the Avari. In this > sense, in a purely spiritual assessment, it could be said that the > 'spiritual' stature varies as much among the Elven kindreds as the > 'physical' stature varies between Men and Hobbits. > > Christopher > > -- > --- > Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard > > "The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but > never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell > there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the > Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, > for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both > worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power. > [Frodo: 'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow > dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'] Yes, you saw him for a > moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. > He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes." - Gandalf and Frodo on the > lords of the Eldar (Many Meetings - FotR) > > ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:36:20 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 29 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!canoe.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143648 It seems "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Were all Elves created equal, and the kindreds evolved from there? >Were all Humans created equal and Men and Hobbits evolved from there? Naturally you would expect material on the Three Kindreds of the Elves to be in HoME XII, /The Peoples of Middle-earth/; and naturally it's instead buried in HoME XI, /The War of the Jewels/. :-) In "Quendi and Eldar", part "C. The Clan-names", HoME XI 380, the original proportions of the Three Kindreds are given: Minyar --> Vanyar 14 Tatyar --> Avari 28, Noldor 28 Nelyar --> Avari 28, Teleri in Aman 20, Sindar and Nandor 26 In an Appendix on page 420 Tolkien gives the legend of the Awakening of the Elves. The impression he gives is that the Three Kindreds started as the three first-awakened Elves choosing out followers, not on the basis of any morphological differentiation. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 56 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <2dvYb.1321$B_5.13602042@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:55:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.163.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077051326 82.43.163.4 (Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:55:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:55:26 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!nnx.oleane.net!oleane!freenix!wanadoo.fr!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143670 Aris Katsaris wrote: > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote >> Could you tell the Elves apart by looking or is it just an accident >> that three leaders were chosen to go to Aman, and it was only >> thereafter that their fates diverged so dramatically? > > The division preexisted the departure to Aman, as there were in origin > three first-awaken elves that took followers to them. But that doesn't answer the question as to whether the division was just by this choosing, or whether there was an innate created difference. It seems, from a HoME quote elsewhere, that there was no innate differences between the Elven kindreds, and that the differences later observed were a result of the different histories of these kindreds. Big differences, but all the differences should be explainable by the histories. Now whether this also applies to Hobbits and Men is another matter. >> Men and Hobbits were easily distinguished by size. >> >> [Remember that Elves all seem alike to mortals, > > I don't remember that. I may have made it up... (from the Lindir quote below). But I vaguely remember something along these lines somewhere else. Anyone? >> and to the Elves, all >> the mortals look alike as well. There is a very apt and humorous if >> rather rude quote from the elf Lindir in Many Meetings: "...to sheep, >> other sheep no doubt appear different."] > > And that's absolute nonsense. Lindir wasn't talking about *looks* > when he said he couldn't tell apart the difference between hobbits and > men, he was talking about the kind of different psychology that'd > lead to different artistic expression in a poem. Quite right. It was late and I wasn't thinking straight. Thanks. >> We know that the Elven kindreds could interbreed. But was it a common >> event or relatively rare? > > Well just go ahead and list all the elven pairings you find and I'll > bet you'll find about as many inter-kindred pairings as intra-kindred > ones. Probably. I was hoping someone else had done this already... Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <10349debotrqq2a@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <2fvYb.1323$Q%5.13624384@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:57:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.163.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077051454 82.43.163.4 (Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:57:34 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:57:34 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!news.newsland.it!proxad.net!proxad.net!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143671 aelfwina wrote: > I have no doubt that somewhere far back in history there was an > ancestor who was of the race of Man, but I feel strongly, that > whether Tolkien tells us about it or not, there must have been a > *Someone*, not necessarily Illuvatar, perhaps one of the Valar, such > as Yavanna or one of her Maiar, who *interfered* and *created* the > race of Hobbits. This would not alter their fea; in that sense they > would yet be human, but they would now be a separate race to Man. > This kind of interference was not unheard of in Middle Earth, and the > "bad guys" went in for it in a big way. > (e.g. Orcs, trolls, etc.) > And the "good guys" occasionally did things for reasons that only > became apparent in the playing out of History. That does make a lot of sense. Though the idea of Hobbits being created, presumably to produce Frodo, is a rather uncomfortable one. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <7gvYb.1325$w_5.13596801@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:58:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.163.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077051523 82.43.163.4 (Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:58:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:58:43 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143672 Stan Brown wrote: > Naturally you would expect material on the Three Kindreds of the > Elves to be in HoME XII, /The Peoples of Middle-earth/; and > naturally it's instead buried in HoME XI, /The War of the Jewels/. > :-) Thanks! Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "~Nins~" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1ToYb.50710$_44.48258@attbi_s52> Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.215.224.35 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mchsi.com X-Trace: attbi_s03 1077053042 12.215.224.35 (Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:24:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:24:02 GMT Organization: MediaCom High Speed Internet Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:24:02 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn53feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143675 Robert J. Kolker wrote: || Alison wrote: || ||| non-Eldarin elves, such as the silvan elf from Lorien who married a ||| prince of Dol Amroth and then left him. || || It just goes to show you. These mixed marriages rarely work out. It was elven females who chose to marry men. Why, if there weren't any, were there not mixed marriages of elven males and mortal women? Did Tolkien address this? ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:29:42 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <1ToYb.50710$_44.48258@attbi_s52> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-t125.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1077053838 70073 62.103.252.125 (17 Feb 2004 21:37:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:37:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143678 "~Nins~" wrote in message news:SDvYb.207552$U%5.1142875@attbi_s03... > Robert J. Kolker wrote: > || Alison wrote: > || > ||| non-Eldarin elves, such as the silvan elf from Lorien who married a > ||| prince of Dol Amroth and then left him. > || > || It just goes to show you. These mixed marriages rarely work out. > > It was elven females who chose to marry men. Why, if there weren't any, > were there not mixed marriages of elven males and mortal women? Did Tolkien > address this? There was atleast one romance between an elf-man and mortal woman -- that of Aegnor and Andreth. It never led to marriage but the genders involved didn't have anything to do with this. I don't think there's any particular reason, other than perhaps that Tolkien seems to have liked the theme of "a vagabond going after the King's daughter" a bit, and elves seemed always too lordly to play the "vagabond" part. :-) Aris Katsaris ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:18:39 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <10354q8f5ui3b3c@corp.supernews.com> References: <10349debotrqq2a@corp.supernews.com> <2fvYb.1323$Q%5.13624384@news-text.cableinet.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143687 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:2fvYb.1323$Q%5.13624384@news-text.cableinet.net... > aelfwina wrote: > > > I have no doubt that somewhere far back in history there was an > > ancestor who was of the race of Man, but I feel strongly, that > > whether Tolkien tells us about it or not, there must have been a > > *Someone*, not necessarily Illuvatar, perhaps one of the Valar, such > > as Yavanna or one of her Maiar, who *interfered* and *created* the > > race of Hobbits. This would not alter their fea; in that sense they > > would yet be human, but they would now be a separate race to Man. > > This kind of interference was not unheard of in Middle Earth, and the > > "bad guys" went in for it in a big way. > > (e.g. Orcs, trolls, etc.) > > And the "good guys" occasionally did things for reasons that only > > became apparent in the playing out of History. > > That does make a lot of sense. Though the idea of Hobbits being created, > presumably to produce Frodo, is a rather uncomfortable one. Why? I mean once the idea that there is a Creator, and that Creator has a purpose in Creation is admitted, where is the discomfort? It does not necessarily mean that the "end product" is the only purpose involved, nor that all the other souls involved have no purpose of their own; it definitely does not mean they have no value of their own, but for all to lead down the path that the Creator has in mind is not a bad thing. Barbara > > Christopher > > -- > --- > Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard > > ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <10349debotrqq2a@corp.supernews.com> <2fvYb.1323$Q%5.13624384@news-text.cableinet.net> <10354q8f5ui3b3c@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:43:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.163.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077061390 82.43.163.4 (Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:43:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:43:10 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143704 aelfwina wrote: > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote >> That does make a lot of sense. Though the idea of Hobbits being >> created, presumably to produce Frodo, is a rather uncomfortable one. > > Why? I mean once the idea that there is a Creator, and that Creator > has a purpose in Creation is admitted, where is the discomfort? It > does not necessarily mean that the "end product" is the only purpose > involved, nor that all the other souls involved have no purpose of > their own; it definitely does not mean they have no value of their > own, but for all to lead down the path that the Creator has in mind > is not a bad thing. It just feels like someone else is pulling the strings, and that seems dangerously close to a loss of free will. But then many people say that free will is just an illusion anyway. I do admit, though, that my unease is probably more to do with unease at the whole idea of a Creator anyway. Even within Tolkien's world I'd like to think of hobbits as more than just a brief theme played during the Third Age to engineer the downfall of Sauron, after which they dwindle to a rustic folk of cave and dell. (Yes, I know that quote describes the elves!) Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: L Woodblues <50seneca@poke-a-pest.com> Organization: Synonymous User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:43:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.75.4.213 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net 1077061420 67.75.4.213 (Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:43:40 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:43:40 PST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.mediascape.de!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!645fba83!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143705 Stan Brown wrote: The impression he gives is that the Three Kindreds > started as the three first-awakened Elves choosing out followers, > not on the basis of any morphological differentiation. But there was one morphological difference. The Vanyar tended to be golden-haired, whereas Elves in general tended to be dark-haired. I only recall three Elves being described as golden haired. One in TH: the Elven King (Thranduil), and two in FOTR: Glorfindel and Galadriel. Galadriel was a Noldo, but she had golden hair from her paternal grandmother's side (Indis was a Vanya). Glorfindel seems to have been a Noldo as well, but perhaps he also had Vanyarin blood. I'm not sure about Thranduil's ancestry. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 40 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:03:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.163.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077062603 82.43.163.4 (Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:03:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:03:23 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143710 L Woodblues <50seneca@poke-a-pest.com> wrote: > Stan Brown wrote: > The impression he gives is that the Three Kindreds >> started as the three first-awakened Elves choosing out followers, >> not on the basis of any morphological differentiation. > > But there was one morphological difference. The Vanyar > tended to be golden-haired, whereas Elves in general > tended to be dark-haired. Is it not possible that Ingwe was a bit vain and only chose golden-haired Elves when selecting his followers? I'll leave the geneticists to work out what that tells us about the phenotype golden-hairedness if it persisted in the Vanyarin population. Because this thread has veered off into Elf-Men unions in most places (though I thought I made it clear I was talking about contrasting the internal differences between Quenya kindreds and Atani kindreds), I think it is worth repeating here that I think that the major differences are as follows: 1) The major variation in Elven kindreds is their 'spiritual power'. Compare the semi-divine Vanyar on Tanequetil with the spiritually-bereft Avari in ME. 2) Human kindreds vary more in physical appearances. For example, consider Hobbits, Rohirrim, Dunedain, Pukel-men, Druadan. Of course, this is not a complete generalisation, but it is an important reminder that the spiritual side of Elves is more important than it is for Men. Maybe that is obvious, but it feels like a crucial point to be considered. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### Reply-To: "Conrad B Dunkerson" From: "Conrad B Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2055 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2055 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Response Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:22:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.153.208.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1077063727 141.153.208.58 (Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:22:07 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:22:07 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143712 "L Woodblues" <50seneca@poke-a-pest.com> wrote in message news:MGxYb.9319$hm4.5179@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net... > I only recall three Elves being described as golden haired. There were several others; Indis, Finarfin, Finrod, Finduilas, Idril, Aegnor, and even Celegorm in some texts. That last being even more an anomaly than Glorfindel. > I'm not sure about Thranduil's ancestry. Thranduil was Sindarin, and thus 'Teleri' in origin. Which makes his hair color an anomaly. Most members of the Teleri royal family had silver hair and other Teleri tended to brown/black. ###### From: NobodyMan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Message-ID: <3cj530hph19r6kink4aog63b60rc96bidi@4ax.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:28:36 EST Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:28:38 -0500 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!proxad.net!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!c03.atl99!news.usenetserver.com!fe02.usenetserver.com.POSTED!83ce148c!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143718 On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:19:35 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote: >The question arose as I was re-reading the Silmarillion, and the >divisions between the Eldar are described, resulting in the Vanyar, >Noldor and Teleri. (Remember that the Eldar are those that began the >journey to Aman). The Eldar are not confined to just those that began the journey to Aman. Some never joined the journey. They are still considered Eldar. The Eldar are the First Born, better known as the Elves. Whether they decided to accept the offer of the Valar or not does not deliniate those behind as not being "Eldar." ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:53:30 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <1035pbu81q00v3a@corp.supernews.com> References: <10349debotrqq2a@corp.supernews.com> <2fvYb.1323$Q%5.13624384@news-text.cableinet.net> <10354q8f5ui3b3c@corp.supernews.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 48 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143723 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:iGxYb.1473$Y87.14832787@news-text.cableinet.net... > aelfwina wrote: > > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote > > >> That does make a lot of sense. Though the idea of Hobbits being > >> created, presumably to produce Frodo, is a rather uncomfortable one. > > > > Why? I mean once the idea that there is a Creator, and that Creator > > has a purpose in Creation is admitted, where is the discomfort? It > > does not necessarily mean that the "end product" is the only purpose > > involved, nor that all the other souls involved have no purpose of > > their own; it definitely does not mean they have no value of their > > own, but for all to lead down the path that the Creator has in mind > > is not a bad thing. > > It just feels like someone else is pulling the strings, and that seems > dangerously close to a loss of free will. But then many people say that > free will is just an illusion anyway. I do admit, though, that my unease > is probably more to do with unease at the whole idea of a Creator > anyway. Even within Tolkien's world I'd like to think of hobbits as more > than just a brief theme played during the Third Age to engineer the > downfall of Sauron, after which they dwindle to a rustic folk of cave > and dell. (Yes, I know that quote describes the elves!) Yet whatever you believe about this world we live in, Middle Earth *is* a Creationist world, even if you only want to think of Tolkien as the creator. ( Though this was *not* Tolkien's view, he thought of himself as a "sub-creator.) However, the theological conundrums of free will, predestination, and omnipotence are bound together in the Christian theology that Tolkien espoused. Even if Hobbits as a race were created with the downfall of Sauron in mind, and even if Frodo were the end product of that creation, all other Hobbits still had their own individual value as beings who loved and were loved, and who made their own decisions for good or ill.. Think of Gandalf's fondness for them, and the way in which it was shown. Barbara > > Christopher > > -- > --- > Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard > > ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 22:19:21 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <1035pui8navj84d@corp.supernews.com> References: <10349debotrqq2a@corp.supernews.com> <2fvYb.1323$Q%5.13624384@news-text.cableinet.net> <10354q8f5ui3b3c@corp.supernews.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 51 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143724 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:iGxYb.1473$Y87.14832787@news-text.cableinet.net... > aelfwina wrote: > > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote > > >> That does make a lot of sense. Though the idea of Hobbits being > >> created, presumably to produce Frodo, is a rather uncomfortable one. > > > > Why? I mean once the idea that there is a Creator, and that Creator > > has a purpose in Creation is admitted, where is the discomfort? It > > does not necessarily mean that the "end product" is the only purpose > > involved, nor that all the other souls involved have no purpose of > > their own; it definitely does not mean they have no value of their > > own, but for all to lead down the path that the Creator has in mind > > is not a bad thing. > > It just feels like someone else is pulling the strings, and that seems > dangerously close to a loss of free will. But then many people say that > free will is just an illusion anyway. I do admit, though, that my unease > is probably more to do with unease at the whole idea of a Creator > anyway. Even within Tolkien's world I'd like to think of hobbits as more > than just a brief theme played during the Third Age to engineer the > downfall of Sauron, after which they dwindle to a rustic folk of cave > and dell. (Yes, I know that quote describes the elves!) The thing is, whatever your personal beliefs about the world in which we actually live, Tolkien's Middle Earth *is* a creationist world. If nothing else than that Tolkien is the creator ( although this was *not* *his* belief--he thought of himself as a sub-creator). In the theology that he espoused (essentially Christian ) free will, predesitination and omnipotence are all inextricably bound together. *If* the race of Hobbits *were* created especially with the downfall of Sauron in mind, and with Frodo as the end product, this does *not* mean that all other individual Hobbits had no purposes of their own. They were free souls to love and be loved and to make their own decisions, and whatever those were, the Creator could use them to His purpose. Think of Gandalf's attitude towards Hobbits--he loved and cared for them, and yes, he also used them. Barbara > > Christopher > > -- > --- > Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard > > ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:47:50 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <3cj530hph19r6kink4aog63b60rc96bidi@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!proxad.net!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143726 It seems "NobodyMan" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >The Eldar are not confined to just those that began the journey to >Aman. Some never joined the journey. They are still considered >Eldar. The Eldar are the First Born, better known as the Elves. Either you've expressed yourself really badly, or you're really confused. Look at the chart in the back pages of /The Silmarillion/ that shows the divisions of the Elves. It's headed "Quendi: The Elves". -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: "Kristian Damm Jensen" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:25:11 +0100 Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <10349debotrqq2a@corp.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.142.44.10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077096562 46333007 I 129.142.44.10 ([146708]) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!129.142.44.10!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143739 aelfwina wrote: > "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message > news:XSeYb.762$I16.7658548@news-text.cableinet.net... >> 2) Genetics/Interbreeding >> >> We know that the Elven kindreds could interbreed. But was it a common >> event or relatively rare? Presumably Hobbits and Men could >> interbreed, > > Could they? I have mentioned the more obvious physical differences > between Hobbits and Men in other threads, such as size ( least > important ), pointy ears and furry feet (in our world, possibly > explainable as a mutancy or sport, but unlikely in Tolkien's Middle > Earth, where creation is more significant than evolution) and their > incredible physical and emotional toughness in comparison to other > races, but there are a couple of other physical differences--a > longer childhood period, in which the young Hobbit does not reach > adolescence until they reach their twenties, and a high metabolism, > which would be necessary for them to consume as much food as they do > without being morbidly obese. The physical difference between "ordinary" Men and Hobbits has been discussed a number of times. The differences between Men and Hobbits aren't that much bigger than between various human groups in "our" world. Height: Pygmies vs. Masai Skincolor: Aboriginals vs. scandinavians vs. Inuit vs. American indians. Differences in haircover and and build abound too. Even the differences in adolecence is known. In Roman time, puberty began around 10 years. Around 20 years ago it started at 13, 14 or even 15 years in western societies. Today we are back at 10 or 11 years. In short: Variations occur. While Hobbits may be extreme in their variance from the norm, I don't find this impossible in a constructed world. Lastly, you mention that "in Tolkien's Middle Earth, where creation is more significant than evolution". But that's not true. Consider the Prologue: "Their height is variable, ranging between two and four feet of our measure. They seldom now reach three feet; but they hive dwindled, they say, and in ancient days they were taller. " To me a clear indication of evolution. And if this evolution has occurred since the time of LotR, would it be unreasonable to assume that it started even before it? -- Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it. -- Groucho Marx ###### From: Alison Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Reply-To: news.poster@ntlworld.com Message-ID: References: <3cj530hph19r6kink4aog63b60rc96bidi@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:25:40 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.104.8.92 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net 1077096341 81.104.8.92 (Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:25:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:25:41 GMT Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143738 On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:28:38 -0500, NobodyMan wrote: >On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:19:35 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" > wrote: > >>The question arose as I was re-reading the Silmarillion, and the >>divisions between the Eldar are described, resulting in the Vanyar, >>Noldor and Teleri. (Remember that the Eldar are those that began the >>journey to Aman). > >The Eldar are not confined to just those that began the journey to >Aman. Some never joined the journey. They are still considered >Eldar. The Eldar are the First Born, better known as the Elves. >Whether they decided to accept the offer of the Valar or not does not >deliniate those behind as not being "Eldar." I think you need to check the chart of the various branches of the elves at the back of the Silmarillion. The Eldar emphatically does not include all the elves. -- Alison ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 03:59:08 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <1036drlbalqj22b@corp.supernews.com> References: <10349debotrqq2a@corp.supernews.com> <2fvYb.1323$Q%5.13624384@news-text.cableinet.net> <10354q8f5ui3b3c@corp.supernews.com> <1035pui8navj84d@corp.supernews.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 4 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!enews.sgi.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143742 Ooops, sorry. The computer told me my first post did not go through. Barbara ###### From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:59:47 GMT Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 34 Message-ID: <4033dfee.15811706@news.compuserve.com> References: <10349debotrqq2a@corp.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ndcvba1.utc.com X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1077141580 19496 192.249.49.31 (18 Feb 2004 21:59:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:59:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143778 On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:25:11 +0100, "Kristian Damm Jensen" wrote: >Lastly, you mention that "in Tolkien's Middle Earth, where creation is more >significant than evolution". But that's not true. Consider the Prologue: > >"Their height is variable, ranging between two and four feet of our >measure. They seldom now reach three feet; but they hive dwindled, they >say, and in ancient days they were taller. " > >To me a clear indication of evolution. And if this evolution has occurred >since the time of LotR, would it be unreasonable to assume that it started >even before it? I disagree: that's not an example of evolution. I don't think there is any such thing as evolution in Middle Earth. Certainly Elves have no such thing (how many generations of Elves were there altogether, anyway: four or five that we know of? Not much room for any there!). What there _is_ in Middle Earth is a general waning of everything, with an occasional boost from the divine. The Numenorians didn't "evolve" their long lives: they were given them. And over the millennia they lost them. Everything slowly fades, at least up to the Fourth Age (and we have no later histories to judge from). Nothing gets better suited to its environment over time, as far as I can tell. Even the rash of blondness that breaks out in the Shire after the fall of Sauron is a gift from above, not a result of selection pressures and selective breeding. Jim Deutch -- "Mystics are they who are baffled by the obvious yet possess a complete understanding of the nonexistent." - Anon. ###### From: "Moggie P. Barlto" <50seneca@poke-a-pest.com> Organization: Pests 'R' Us User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans References: <3cj530hph19r6kink4aog63b60rc96bidi@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:30:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.75.4.169 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net 1077147033 67.75.4.169 (Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:30:33 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:30:33 PST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!645fba83!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143783 Alison wrote: > On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:28:38 -0500, NobodyMan wrote: > > >>On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:19:35 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" >> wrote: >> >> >>>The question arose as I was re-reading the Silmarillion, and the >>>divisions between the Eldar are described, resulting in the Vanyar, >>>Noldor and Teleri. (Remember that the Eldar are those that began the >>>journey to Aman). >> >>The Eldar are not confined to just those that began the journey to >>Aman. Some never joined the journey. They are still considered >>Eldar. The Eldar are the First Born, better known as the Elves. >>Whether they decided to accept the offer of the Valar or not does not >>deliniate those behind as not being "Eldar." > > > I think you need to check the chart of the various branches of the > elves at the back of the Silmarillion. The Eldar emphatically does not > include all the elves. The word "Elda" (plural "Eldar") originally reffered to all the Elves; later in the history of the Elvish race, it came to have a more specific meaning: all the Elves who began the great westward migration toward Aman (including those who completed the journey, as well as those who remained in Middle- Earth). The Silmarillion is quite clear on this: the meaning of "Eldar" (people of the stars) changed. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <10349debotrqq2a@corp.supernews.com> <2fvYb.1323$Q%5.13624384@news-text.cableinet.net> <10354q8f5ui3b3c@corp.supernews.com> <1035pbu81q00v3a@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <_tTYb.2486$552.23587048@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:31:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.163.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077150714 82.43.163.4 (Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:31:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:31:54 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143791 aelfwina wrote: > Even if Hobbits as a race were created I suppose it is possible and even consistent with Tolkien's theology, but I still prefer to avoid that scenario if possible. Just a personal preference. I think I'll stick with the 'in a hole in the ground...' sub-creation mythology! :-) Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3cj530hph19r6kink4aog63b60rc96bidi@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 43 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:47:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.163.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077151636 82.43.163.4 (Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:47:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:47:16 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news.vew-telnet.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143792 NobodyMan wrote: > On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:19:35 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" > wrote: > >> The question arose as I was re-reading the Silmarillion, and the >> divisions between the Eldar are described, resulting in the Vanyar, >> Noldor and Teleri. (Remember that the Eldar are those that began the >> journey to Aman). > > The Eldar are not confined to just those that began the journey to > Aman. Some never joined the journey. They are still considered > Eldar. The Eldar are the First Born, better known as the Elves. > Whether they decided to accept the offer of the Valar or not does not > deliniate those behind as not being "Eldar." As someone [Moggie] has pointed out, Eldar did briefly mean all the Eldar, and was in fact the term used by Orome when he discovered the Elves. However, the Elves named themselves Quendi. Eldar very soon became a term used just for those who answered the summons to Aman, and it was in that sense that I was using the term Eldar. It is also possible to confuse the terms 'Eldar' and 'Elder Children of Illuvatar'. I admit to being confused by that on a few ocassions. The term Eldar is best explained in the index to the Silmarillion. The term Eldar used in the diagram 'The Sundering of the Elves', is used in its final meaning of just the Elves of the Great Journey. To make things even more confusing, the term has been used in both senses... "They were a race high and beautiful the older Children of the world, and among them the Eldar were as kings, who now are gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars." - Concerning Elves (Appendix F, LotR) Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3cj530hph19r6kink4aog63b60rc96bidi@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <0QTYb.2501$Jj2.23744559@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:55:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.163.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077152124 82.43.163.4 (Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:55:24 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:55:24 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!news.newsland.it!newsfeed.nettuno.it!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143793 Moggie P. Barlto <50seneca@poke-a-pest.com> wrote: > The Silmarillion is quite clear on this: the meaning of "Eldar" (people of > the stars) changed. I agree. The index is very clear. Would you agree that the normal use of the word should be taken to have the later meaning, and that those who want to use it in its literal sense should say so? I'm sure there is a technical philological term for this change in word-meaning... Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Kristian Damm Jensen" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:22:18 +0100 Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <10349debotrqq2a@corp.supernews.com> <4033dfee.15811706@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.142.44.10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077170684 47156558 I 129.142.44.10 ([146708]) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!129.142.44.10!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143845 Jim Deutch wrote: > On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:25:11 +0100, "Kristian Damm Jensen" > wrote: >> Lastly, you mention that "in Tolkien's Middle Earth, where creation >> is more significant than evolution". But that's not true. Consider >> the Prologue: >> >> "Their height is variable, ranging between two and four feet of our >> measure. They seldom now reach three feet; but they hive dwindled, >> they say, and in ancient days they were taller. " >> >> To me a clear indication of evolution. And if this evolution has >> occurred since the time of LotR, would it be unreasonable to assume >> that it started even before it? > > I disagree: that's not an example of evolution. I don't think there > is any such thing as evolution in Middle Earth. Certainly Elves have > no such thing (how many generations of Elves were there altogether, > anyway: four or five that we know of? Not much room for any there!). So, since the Elves didn't have any evolution (I can agree with that) you don't have to counter the main point of my argument? Or would you call the gradiually diminishment of Hobbit waning too? -- Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk In C we had to code our own bugs. In C++ we can inherit them. C gives you enough rope to hang yourself. C++ also gives you the tree object to tie it to. With C you can shoot yourself in the leg. With C++ you can reuse the bullet. ###### From: 103134.3516@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:08:51 GMT Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: <40363eaf.84384879@news.compuserve.com> References: <10349debotrqq2a@corp.supernews.com> <4033dfee.15811706@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ndcvba1.utc.com X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1077296928 262 192.249.49.31 (20 Feb 2004 17:08:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:08:48 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.esat.net!news2.telebyte.nl!feed3.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143958 On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:22:18 +0100, "Kristian Damm Jensen" wrote: >So, since the Elves didn't have any evolution (I can agree with that) you >don't have to counter the main point of my argument? Or would you call the >gradiually diminishment of Hobbit waning too? Yep. Everything gets smaller and weaker, less powerful and more mundane, as ME proceeds from the First Age to the Fourth. The picture's a little different in the earlier times, when the Valar were constantly meddling with things. And there are hints that the future holds something different as well. But Hobbits get smaller just the way Numenorians do, IMHO: by waning. Jim Deutch -- "The memory goes second; I forget what's first." ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 12:51:24 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:53:07 -0800 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-V0q6QdfC88WglhuYoICSD6X1wxV0A72hxT+qSqAclQoYVSbIni+o5QzZzXlBpTcQELqTKqwR8EW3akY!3J+GGsFv5I+zWAcV6xGKDZJYbBw8V2DROC4TGqh9OEd2qHlG0NTt50HFqtdP3ExCVxE5zE21MTSd!wwoipaa1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144068 In article , spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk says... > L Woodblues <50seneca@poke-a-pest.com> wrote: > > Stan Brown wrote: > > The impression he gives is that the Three Kindreds > >> started as the three first-awakened Elves choosing out followers, > >> not on the basis of any morphological differentiation. > > > > But there was one morphological difference. The Vanyar > > tended to be golden-haired, whereas Elves in general > > tended to be dark-haired. > > Is it not possible that Ingwe was a bit vain and only chose > golden-haired Elves when selecting his followers? I'll leave the > geneticists to work out what that tells us about the phenotype > golden-hairedness if it persisted in the Vanyarin population. Ingwe did not really choose the group that became his followers, but much as Finwe and Elwe, was rather born into that group, and sort of 'inherited' (FLoaBW) the rule of the Vanyar when they decided to depart. > Christopher -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:27:49 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!194.168.222.21.MISMATCH!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newspeer1-win.server.ntli.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144072 It seems "Tar-Elenion" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Ingwe did not really choose the group that became his followers, but much >as Finwe and Elwe, was rather born into that group, and sort of >'inherited' (FLoaBW) the rule of the Vanyar when they decided to depart. It's pardonable that you are not familiar with the section of WotJ (HoME XI) that explains the birth of the Elves and the choosing (yes, choosing) of the three kindreds. But the reference was posted and summarized in this very thread four days ago.[1] If you're going to make flat statements in a thread, it might be prudent to read the other responses first. [1] http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=MPG.1a9bf0ebdb5ff29098be61@news .odyssey.net And someone after me posted even more details. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:07:57 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p135.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1077394536 95477 212.205.253.135 (21 Feb 2004 20:15:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:15:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!pete.fi.eu.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator4-cogent.newsfeed.com!propagator2-sterling!in.nntp.be!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144074 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1aa17b3d32c3fd3f98be9c@news.odyssey.net... > It seems "Tar-Elenion" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Ingwe did not really choose the group that became his followers, but much > >as Finwe and Elwe, was rather born into that group, and sort of > >'inherited' (FLoaBW) the rule of the Vanyar when they decided to depart. > > It's pardonable that you are not familiar with the section of WotJ > (HoME XI) that explains the birth of the Elves and the choosing > (yes, choosing) of the three kindreds. You are missing Tar-Elenion's point. It's nowhere stated that Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe were the first three elves to awake. Everything hints towards them being among the elves *chosen* (or elves later born from the elves chosen) rather than the choosers. Orome later chose them as emissaries among their peoples -- which before that time it doesn't seem they had ruled. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:06:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077397591 82.43.166.216 (Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:06:31 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:06:31 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144082 Tar-Elenion wrote: > Ingwe did not really choose the group that became his followers, but > much as Finwe and Elwe, was rather born into that group, and sort of > 'inherited' (FLoaBW) the rule of the Vanyar when they decided to > depart. In the 1977 Silmarillion, Ingwe, Elwe and Finwe were chosen _by Orome_ as emissaries to return to Aman with him. This led to them afterwards becoming kings. Though they are already described as lords when they return to Cuievienen from Aman. I don't know much about the other versions of this tale in HoME. What I really want to know is when the division of the Quendi into these kindreds first happened? I would have thought that Eru would not have created three kindreds (plus the Avari of course), but that all the Elves were created with their individual differences, and then bred and multiplied, and that clans formed around those related to each other, which eventually became the three kindreds we hear about. The family relationships explains the use of the term 'kindred', and also explains the reference to Olwe and Elwe being brothers. It also explains why certain characteristics, such as hair colour, is associated with certain kindreds. I would stand by my statement that Elves are not physically very different from each other (certainly less so than Hobbits and Men are), but that vast spiritual differences arose between the Elven kindreds over the millennia and from the associations with the Valar and Maiar. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:12:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077397922 82.43.166.216 (Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:12:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:12:02 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144084 Aris Katsaris wrote: > It's nowhere stated that Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe were the first three elves > to awake. The fact that Elwe had a brother (Olwe) rather clearly points that out. I think that versions of the tale in HoME do have three elves being the first to awake and choosing their followers. This leads to the kindreds we hear about. These first three to awake may have had different or similar names, and they may have later become Finwe, Elwe and Ingwe, but I believe at some point the original wakening was removed to a mythological past not seen in the 1977 Silmarillion. Does Christopher Tolkien say why he did not use the tale of the original wakening? Was it because there were too many inconsistencies? Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard "This tale grew in the telling, until it became a history of the Great War of the Ring..." - J.R.R. Tolkien (Foreward to LotR) ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:32:09 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:33:52 -0800 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-6lPz3FUSqvN3Zw4t97zQ6diix5D/blS+qQxy/cyV85Aqoi8g8NLhgO20qVrnRZzmSaZ12JgTi+AMb/8!qlDvP3fZuWwUDGOOqa92Ckg0vOL34dpnZv5xXS/kjS9oxcvP9eoXlSkZJVOSPOJDrVjY2N4CHfqg!TbVvMXIe X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!green.octanews.net!news-out.octanews.net!news.moat.net!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144088 In article , the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm says... > It seems "Tar-Elenion" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Ingwe did not really choose the group that became his followers, but much > >as Finwe and Elwe, was rather born into that group, and sort of > >'inherited' (FLoaBW) the rule of the Vanyar when they decided to depart. > > It's pardonable that you are not familiar with the section of WotJ > (HoME XI) that explains the birth of the Elves and the choosing > (yes, choosing) of the three kindreds. > > But the reference was posted and summarized in this very thread four > days ago.[1] If you're going to make flat statements in a thread, it > might be prudent to read the other responses first. I am very familiar with that section of WotJ. Based on that section, my point still stands. Ingwe did not choose the group that became his followers. He was rather born into that group, as were Finwe and Elwe born into their respective groups. Imin, who chose the first group that became the Vanyar is not Ingwe, nor are Tata and Enel Finwe or Elwe. I don't think that had been addressed in this thread. > > [1] > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=MPG.1a9bf0ebdb5ff29098be61@news > .odyssey.net > And someone after me posted even more details. > > -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:37:58 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:39:42 -0800 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-lgSCcSBBKAUyCh87Ii3H60+JgDJQHzqzLK7+VyJMhIFaXfoasA6uXGsVnbMyj4XKQYuc76Ai2W1GLOt!hB30+fCgIsOiGvN8LpLqzD6VxieA44YhYvqJa9fmcYab10PfuKWgUE1lW4VFCahaBumVwUF2ZqfJ!zNSzsNAs X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144090 In article , katsaris@otenet.gr says... Thanks Aris... -- Tar-Elenion ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:26:21 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:28:05 -0800 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-X1bHwD8LyG4M7WdNcrUHq+/SLSOMwoLwGSloByUDHnak+j6unhfEZYoKWEOcRH7jBr+3QotUCVOCcyc!EZbcAcze3fYtdQ8cZ1wSNcAoa1CP16c1BRuJcuKbXgB4mYsROFTzIJKjeD/iZVcwQRojw+hvfENX!1iPKiSoM X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news2.telebyte.nl!news.moat.net!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144092 In article , spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk says... > Tar-Elenion wrote: > > > Ingwe did not really choose the group that became his followers, but > > much as Finwe and Elwe, was rather born into that group, and sort of > > 'inherited' (FLoaBW) the rule of the Vanyar when they decided to > > depart. > > In the 1977 Silmarillion, Ingwe, Elwe and Finwe were chosen _by Orome_ > as emissaries to return to Aman with him. This led to them afterwards > becoming kings. Though they are already described as lords when they > return to Cuievienen from Aman. I don't know much about the other > versions of this tale in HoME. From the Annals of Aman: "The Quendi were dismayed by the summons of the Valar, and they were unwilling to depart from Middle-earth. Therefore Orome was sent again to them, and he chose fom among them ambassadors who should go to Valinor and speak for their people. And three only of the chieftains of the Quendi were willing to adventure the journey: Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe, who afterward were kings." While in the LQS: "Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling to hearken to the summons, for they had as yet seen the Valar only in their wrath as they went to war, save Orome alone, and they were filled with dread. Therefore Orome was sent again tothem, and he chose from among them three ambassadors; and he brought them to Valmar. These were Ingwe and Finwe and Elwe, who after were kings of the Three Kindreds of the Eldar..." And The (published) Silmarillion: "But the Elves were at first unwilling to hearken to the summons, for they had as yet seen the Valar only in their wrath as they went to war, save Orome alone; and they were filled with dread. Therefore Orome was sent again to them, and he chose from among them ambassadors who should go to Valinor and speak for their people; and these were Ingwe, Finwe and Elw, who afterwards were kings..." > > What I really want to know is when the division of the Quendi into these > kindreds first happened? I would have thought that Eru would not have > created three kindreds (plus the Avari of course), but that all the > Elves were created with their individual differences, and then bred and > multiplied, and that clans formed around those related to each other, > which eventually became the three kindreds we hear about. A quick summary: According to the Cuivienyarna (in WotJ), three Elves first Awoke, Imin, Tata, and Enel and then they awoke their three wives. They then all went for a walk. On their walk they descovered a group of 12 Elves whom Imin chose to be his companions and these Elves were the Minyar (later called the Vanyar). They continued on their walk and found a group of 18 that Tata claimed as his companions. And later a group of 24 that Enel chose. Then they came on 36 Elves and Imin, who noticed that the groups found were getting larger each time passed choosing this group, thinking that he would get an even larger group later. So Tata picked the 36 who were tall and dark-haired, and the Noldor primarily came from them. They then found 48 Elves and Imin thinking that the company after this will be huge passes again so Enel takes them. (Imin that wanted to go off find more but the others were content and Imin was unsuccessful in his search). The Vanyar (Minyar) came from Imin's Elves, the Noldor from Tata's Elves (called the Tatyar (seconds)) and the Lindar from Enel's Elves (called the Nelyar (Thirds)). When it came time to depart for Aman all of the Minyar (whom the Noldor called Vanyar on account of their hair) departed. as did half the Tatyar, these were the Noldor, and a little less than two thirds (@ 62%) of the Nelyar who became called the Teleri. The remaining group of Tatyar and Nelyar became the Avari. This was 500 years or so after the awkening by which point the Elves had multiplied quite a bit. > > The family relationships explains the use of the term 'kindred', and > also explains the reference to Olwe and Elwe being brothers. It also > explains why certain characteristics, such as hair colour, is associated > with certain kindreds. Unsure of what you are saying. Olwe and Elwe would be brothers because they had the same parents. It is likely that Elwe was at least a third generation Elf, while Finwe and Ingwe were at least second generation. > > I would stand by my statement that Elves are not physically very > different from each other (certainly less so than Hobbits and Men are), > but that vast spiritual differences arose between the Elven kindreds > over the millennia and from the associations with the Valar and Maiar. > > Christopher > > -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:21:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077409311 82.43.166.216 (Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:21:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:21:51 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.nextoneserver.com!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144098 Tar-Elenion wrote: > Unsure of what you are saying. Olwe and Elwe would be brothers because > they had the same parents. It is likely that Elwe was at least a third > generation Elf, while Finwe and Ingwe were at least second generation. Thanks for the HoME history lesson. I was pointing out that Olwe and Elwe being brothers means that there are older Elves. It just seems a bit random the way these three elves were chosen to be the leaders, and the original Elves are not mentioned. Are they no longer there, or have they died? Maybe they were captured by Morgoth and became the orcs... Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:26:41 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:28:25 -0800 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-KHhP17J2kIkcaE0Mj1Xa65DH0oZwwamRRTgX5lhXCW8C6F/Rp7A1w8zEhen1JGsEotxoyg96U90K01K!+6QgJybb6CLlXFDSLlLjD/oEgBmVsSKnTODV47lPj87pfr8iFONDV78u4S11isHak/TsxQWTzEA/!AmHiR04r X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144100 In article , conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net says... > "L Woodblues" <50seneca@poke-a-pest.com> wrote in message > news:MGxYb.9319$hm4.5179@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net... > > > I only recall three Elves being described as golden haired. > > There were several others; Indis, Finarfin, Finrod, Finduilas, Idril, > Aegnor, and even Celegorm in some texts. That last being even more an > anomaly than Glorfindel. > Amroth too... -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:52:00 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144110 It seems "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I was pointing out that Olwe and >Elwe being brothers means that there are older Elves. Not necessarily. Manwë and Melkor were brothers(*). Does that mean there were older Ainur? I daresay you soul answer No. (*) See the fourth paragraph of "Valaquenta" in /Silm/. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:53:22 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd7cy1no!pd7cy2so!shaw.ca!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144111 It seems "Tar-Elenion" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Ingwe did not choose the group that became his >followers. He was rather born into that group, as were Finwe and Elwe >born into their respective groups. Imin, who chose the first group that >became the Vanyar is not Ingwe, nor are Tata and Enel Finwe or Elwe. I >don't think that had been addressed in this thread. I stand corrected. I ASSumed that the three first to awake were identical with the leaders of the three kindreds, but I agree with you that it was not stated. Thanks for the correction. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:09:42 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:11:26 -0800 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 46 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-mO7KxzC8GJX2FE4FOM6Ut4BdmUouth3X6myufuLOKnDck8loqAyqBDoBkpn7ZucCdFCfDoAzeXIDnkM!S5tNCsYeBOx5Rybo/ElTMzivTVuXV6xuj1ewCONx1F/ZGFwqlDLFykho/bUomkLPnmGwkPj+J4IT!6auV0bpc X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.nextoneserver.com!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news2.euro.net!news.moat.net!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144112 In article , spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk says... > Tar-Elenion wrote: > > > Unsure of what you are saying. Olwe and Elwe would be brothers because > > they had the same parents. It is likely that Elwe was at least a third > > generation Elf, while Finwe and Ingwe were at least second generation. > > Thanks for the HoME history lesson. Welcome, but not really a history lesson, I was just showing the two passages that CT drew from to constuct the passage in The Sil. Of the earlier similar passages contained in LRoW, the Annals don't mention the journey of Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe to Aman as ambassadors, but rather just say the Elves after being befriended by Orome went with him to Aman, while the QS passage most resembles the LQS passage. The difference between the AA passage and the LQS that I find interesting is that while LQS says he chose the three, A.A. says he chose the three that were the only ones willing. > I was pointing out that Olwe and > Elwe being brothers means that there are older Elves. It just seems a > bit random the way these three elves were chosen to be the leaders, and > the original Elves are not mentioned. Are they no longer there, or have > they died? Anything on that would be pure speculation (though there is a passage that suggests that Beleg was one of the original Elves...). The thing I note is that Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe were among an (unspecified) number of chieftains (as per A.A.), it is possible that they were scions of the original three Elves. It should perhaps be noted that the Cuivienyarna is " 'Actually written (in style and simple notions) to be a surviving Elvish "fairytale" or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore'.", with, it might seem, a bit of a 'morality tale' about greed... ;) > Maybe they were captured by Morgoth and became the orcs... That opens a whole other can of worms... > Christopher -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:17:44 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:19:27 -0800 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-7RZZ51vEGWq1ys1SVQ/IWwvFeAbJBe2BRDBCCRS+wr8E6AyEjAG5S3P2I3I/APXPTNeIBFYuGQ1V2Nf!p4d/wIGho/hycvUoam+31j7FbIN9bJo4cTYQ9xwlJT3nyPssrDfpbDDnv+LYYbiPV6CMva5xVxj4!FLbpFH4X X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.moat.net!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144113 In article , the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm says... > It seems "Tar-Elenion" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Ingwe did not choose the group that became his > >followers. He was rather born into that group, as were Finwe and Elwe > >born into their respective groups. Imin, who chose the first group that > >became the Vanyar is not Ingwe, nor are Tata and Enel Finwe or Elwe. I > >don't think that had been addressed in this thread. > > I stand corrected. I ASSumed that the three first to awake were > identical with the leaders of the three kindreds, but I agree with > you that it was not stated. > > Thanks for the correction. No worries. For some reason I had thought you were of the position they were not the same, but it seems I am misremembering for someone else. I will show the evidence that they could not be 'original' Elves in a responce to your reply to Mr. Kreuzer below. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:28:25 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:30:09 -0800 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-ZjshzWdUcjYSK7NLiZY64tVwq3eAQfgYaQuoaFwbPNXvk00CJ04bYW63pAFpCpZO8TMQDKSOqZmbIn1!HHLIr9C/vL0j75K31rkfxM0WVOBh6WMCPPj7NrL260XJnj4ufmPhxkaV49KE3WnjnmX4oFIg9QQO!UqpvJyid X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144116 In article , the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm says... > It seems "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >I was pointing out that Olwe and > >Elwe being brothers means that there are older Elves. > > Not necessarily. > > Manwë and Melkor were brothers(*). Does that mean there were older > Ainur? I daresay you soul answer No. > > > (*) See the fourth paragraph of "Valaquenta" in /Silm/. The evidence that they were not original Elves (the Unbegotten) is that the original Elves each awoke with their respective spouse (144 Elves in 72 pairs of male and female). As Elwe was wed to Melian, he could not be one of the Unbegotten. Thus he and his brothers would be born to Elven parents. Finwe was married to Miriel who had parents (her mother-name was Serinde), and was likely born in Aman (Finwe seems to have had a thing for younger women...). Hence Finwe would have been born as well. Ingwe had a sister, thus leading to the conclusion that they had parents, and while in some of the earliest writings it is suggested that Ingwe (under other names) was one of the original Elves, this was dropped as those passages developed. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: "Kristian Damm Jensen" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:34:02 +0100 Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <10349debotrqq2a@corp.supernews.com> <4033dfee.15811706@news.compuserve.com> <40363eaf.84384879@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 0x3e42ad87.adsl.cybercity.dk (62.66.173.135) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077445999 50071716 I 62.66.173.135 ([146708]) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!0x3e42ad87.adsl.cybercity.DK!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144141 Jim Deutch wrote: > On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:22:18 +0100, "Kristian Damm Jensen" > wrote: >> So, since the Elves didn't have any evolution (I can agree with >> that) you don't have to counter the main point of my argument? Or >> would you call the gradiually diminishment of Hobbit waning too? > > Yep. Everything gets smaller and weaker, less powerful and more > mundane, as ME proceeds from the First Age to the Fourth. The > picture's a little different in the earlier times, when the Valar were > constantly meddling with things. And there are hints that the future > holds something different as well. But Hobbits get smaller just the > way Numenorians do, IMHO: by waning. But whether you call the process evolution or waning, the fact remains: We know that the Hobbits got smaller over time, at least after the time of LotR. Is it then unreasonable to assume that the process startet before that time, when that assumption works well together with what Tolkien tells us, contrary to the creationist process, which has no foundation in Tolkiens writing? -- Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk If you have a procedure with 10 parameters, you probably missed some. -- Kraulis ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:23:52 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q082.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1077449491 84025 212.205.254.82 (22 Feb 2004 11:31:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:31:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!propagator3-cogent!in.nntp.be!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144144 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:zCSZb.5035$ZB.45494427@news-text.cableinet.net... > Tar-Elenion wrote: > > > Unsure of what you are saying. Olwe and Elwe would be brothers because > > they had the same parents. It is likely that Elwe was at least a third > > generation Elf, while Finwe and Ingwe were at least second generation. > > Thanks for the HoME history lesson. I was pointing out that Olwe and > Elwe being brothers means that there are older Elves. It just seems a > bit random the way these three elves were chosen to be the leaders, and > the original Elves are not mentioned. Are they no longer there, or have > they died? Maybe they were captured by Morgoth and became the orcs... You have to keep in mind btw, that this is mentioned as something of a "nursery tale" filled with counting-lore, for elven-children... I wouldn't find it very bizarre if "in reality" (so to speak) an alternate version of events happened -- like Minyar, Tatyar, Nelyar awaking as separate groups, still centered around first-awaken leaders perhaps, but the groupings already made. In the later tale, this is modified so as to offer something of a moral to the children hearing it: "Don't be greedy!", not to mention have them interested in doing simple arithmetic: "Now the next group they encountered had yet again twelve elves more than before! So how many were were they?" Aris Kasaris ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 07:16:27 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144146 It seems "Stan Brown" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >It seems "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>I was pointing out that Olwe and >>Elwe being brothers means that there are older Elves. > >Not necessarily. > >Manwë and Melkor were brothers. Does that mean there were older >Ainur? I daresay you soul answer No. Soul? I think I was going for "would". How badly must I have typed, that a spell checker that can convert "orgoth" to "Morgoth" couldn't fix that one? And how careless must I have been not to catch it myself? :-) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <78a_b.5717$K83.52784361@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:34:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077489283 82.43.166.216 (Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:34:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:34:43 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144195 Aris Katsaris wrote: [about the awakening of the Elves] > I wouldn't find it very bizarre if "in reality" (so to speak) an > alternate version of events happened -- like Minyar, Tatyar, Nelyar > awaking as separate groups, still centered around first-awaken > leaders perhaps, but the groupings already made. I just feel uncomfortable with the idea that the groupings were already made. It then feels like Eru has created the Elven kindreds separately, when the initial impression from the Silmarillion is that Eru created two races as his 'Children': Men and Elves (plus those pesky dwarves). Having the differences there from the beginning seems to imply to me that Eru created Men, Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri. I just feel that the groupings were historical (as a result of actual events) rather than innate (there from the moment of awakening). Either could still be the case in the legend of the awakening, and I still haven't found a clear answer to this question of whether (as I hope) all Elves were created equal and the kindreds arose from later events. Another way to put this, is to say that if you swapped children from the Avari and the Vanyar at birth, would there be any difference in the final result? Or do the twin test and put one twin with the Avari and one with the Vanyar. Talking of Elven twins, were Elrond and Elros twins, or am I thinking of Elladan and Elrohir? Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <0ga_b.5726$O33.52709519@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:43:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077489788 82.43.166.216 (Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:43:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:43:08 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!news.newsland.it!proxad.net!proxad.net!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144198 Stan Brown wrote: > It seems "Stan Brown" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> It seems "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>> I was pointing out that Olwe and >>> Elwe being brothers means that there are older Elves. >> >> Not necessarily. >> >> Manwë and Melkor were brothers. Does that mean there were older >> Ainur? I daresay you soul answer No. But they were brethren only in the thought of Illuvatar. And family terms are only metaphorical for the Ainur (at least in the published Silmarillion). And why should Elves and Ainur be comparable anyway? > Soul? I think I was going for "would". It looks like you tried to type 'would', but hit 's' instead of the 'w', and then thought (with 's' being close to 'd') thought you had already hit 'd', and then carried on to type the 'a' in 'answer'. All very close together on a QWERTY keyboard, especially as your other hand would have been typing the 'oul' of 'would'. Unluckily, that fudged typing produced a real word: 'soul'. :-) Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <8ka_b.5734$i73.52756679@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:47:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077490052 82.43.166.216 (Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:47:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:47:32 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144199 Tar-Elenion wrote: > In article , > spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk says... >> Thanks for the HoME history lesson. > > Welcome, but not really a history lesson, I was just showing the two > passages that CT drew from to constuct the passage in The Sil. It was interesting. I need to read more HoME before discussing such things. >> and the original Elves are not mentioned. Are they no longer there, >> or have they died? >> >> Maybe they were captured by Morgoth and became the orcs... > > That opens a whole other can of worms... Yah. Let's not go there! :-) Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### Reply-To: "Conrad B Dunkerson" From: "Conrad B Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <78a_b.5717$K83.52784361@news-text.cableinet.net> Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2055 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2055 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:04:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.89.34.196 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1077491084 138.89.34.196 (Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:04:44 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:04:44 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144200 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:78a_b.5717$K83.52784361@news-text.cableinet.net... > Talking of Elven twins, were Elrond and Elros twins, or am I thinking of > Elladan and Elrohir? Both sets were twins. It seemed to run in that family... Elros was a twin who had twin uncles who died before he was born and twin nephews who were born after he died. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 03:30:45 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <78a_b.5717$K83.52784361@news-text.cableinet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a192.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1077500306 63236 212.205.240.192 (23 Feb 2004 01:38:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 01:38:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!news.belwue.de!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144224 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:78a_b.5717$K83.52784361@news-text.cableinet.net... > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > [about the awakening of the Elves] > > > I wouldn't find it very bizarre if "in reality" (so to speak) an > > alternate version of events happened -- like Minyar, Tatyar, Nelyar > > awaking as separate groups, still centered around first-awaken > > leaders perhaps, but the groupings already made. > > I just feel uncomfortable with the idea that the groupings were already > made. It then feels like Eru has created the Elven kindreds separately, > when the initial impression from the Silmarillion is that Eru created > two races as his 'Children': Men and Elves (plus those pesky dwarves). > Having the differences there from the beginning seems to imply to me > that Eru created Men, Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri. I just feel that the > groupings were historical (as a result of actual events) rather than > innate (there from the moment of awakening). But in the story offered we still have divisions made, as there are groups of elves sleeping side by side.... even if those groups didn't have a 1-to-1 connection with the later groupings of Vanyar/Noldor/Teleri (or more accurately the Minyar/Tatyar/Nelyar). And to tell the truth I don't find it that much of a problem with "differences" existing to some extent from the beginning, since that's how I feel about hobbits and Druedain -- that they were probably around in more or less their late-Third Age forms, even from their very awakening... Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <78a_b.5717$K83.52784361@news-text.cableinet.net> Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:27:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077571671 82.43.166.216 (Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:27:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:27:51 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144305 Aris Katsaris wrote: [about differences in Elves] > And to tell the truth I don't find it that much of a problem with > "differences" existing to some extent from the beginning, since that's > how I feel about hobbits and Druedain -- that they were probably > around in more or less their late-Third Age forms, even from their > very awakening... And again I would take the opposite view, that Hobbits and Druadan 'evolved' from the original Men. I know that evolution is not strictly necessary in Tolkien's created world, where Eru and the Ainur can create and subcreate, but having such created differences seems to make a mockery or distortion of the belief that there were only two races that were created as the Children of Illuvatar, and that the differences we now see arose later. Otherwise, why not just have the 500 Children of Illuvatar? I'm not sure that the two viewpoints can be distinguished using textual evidence, but I'd welcome any quotes to support either side of the argument. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:41:04 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <78a_b.5717$K83.52784361@news-text.cableinet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-t184.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1077576785 95379 62.103.252.184 (23 Feb 2004 22:53:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:53:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144315 "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in message news:rfu_b.552$Va5.5445849@news-text.cableinet.net... > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > [about differences in Elves] > > > And to tell the truth I don't find it that much of a problem with > > "differences" existing to some extent from the beginning, since that's > > how I feel about hobbits and Druedain -- that they were probably > > around in more or less their late-Third Age forms, even from their > > very awakening... > > And again I would take the opposite view, that Hobbits and Druadan > 'evolved' from the original Men. I know that evolution is not strictly > necessary in Tolkien's created world, where Eru and the Ainur can create > and subcreate, but having such created differences seems to make a > mockery or distortion of the belief that there were only two races that > were created as the Children of Illuvatar, and that the differences we > now see arose later. Otherwise, why not just have the 500 Children of > Illuvatar? The differences between Hobbit, Druadan and "normal" Man, or the differences between Vanya, Sinda and Avar, seem to me truly trivial indeed compared to the vast gulf that lies between the very natures, metaphysical and corporeal, of Elf and Dwarf and Mortal. How far will you take this "all differences should be evolved" opinion? Can't some newly-awakened Men be blondes, while others black-haired? And if so, why not have newly-awakened Men be more Hobbit-like and hairfooted, and others more thickset (Druedain), and perhaps other variations as well. They are still all Mortals, and metaphysically speaking they are still one race... Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <78a_b.5717$K83.52784361@news-text.cableinet.net> Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:06:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077577619 82.43.166.216 (Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:06:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:06:59 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144319 Aris Katsaris wrote: > The differences between Hobbit, Druadan and "normal" Man, or > the differences between Vanya, Sinda and Avar, seem to me truly > trivial indeed compared to the vast gulf that lies between the very > natures, metaphysical and corporeal, of Elf and Dwarf and Mortal. I'd agree with that entirely. > How far will you take this "all differences should be evolved" > opinion? Can't some newly-awakened Men be blondes, while others > black-haired? Of course. > And if so, why not have newly-awakened Men be more Hobbit-like > and hairfooted, and others more thickset (Druedain), and perhaps other > variations as well. They are still all Mortals, and metaphysically > speaking they are still one race... Yes. I suppose it might be like the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves, separated and placed in different places throughout Middle-earth. The metaphysical differences are more problematic with the Elves, as it does seem that some actual change took place there, mainly for those that went to Aman where the Deathless dwelt and where the Light of the Two Trees was present. But I would be happy to accept that physically, Elves and Men were created in tribes or kindreds, but that all these kindreds were metaphysically equal. And then the Elven kindreds changed metaphyscially over time. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:14:47 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven kindreds vs Hobbits/Humans Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:16:35 -0800 Message-ID: References: <78a_b.5717$K83.52784361@news-text.cableinet.net> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 50 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-d6qCgNcuCFWnQwOdO1gtPffftGT7TVd0PAph3fjYnMO883BJBuaP5eUfsrxtJIf37h3TCYsF4u5h4Ke!a67kQq/iESw/kzhQn9U8rjekGipzFgPiObS10Yglyy+dOtVRzL0nw3VO7nQvjRdX3JZKvNrYE3KR!qZYgIlx5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeeds.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!216.196.106.144!border2.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144320 In article , spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk says... > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > > The differences between Hobbit, Druadan and "normal" Man, or > > the differences between Vanya, Sinda and Avar, seem to me truly > > trivial indeed compared to the vast gulf that lies between the very > > natures, metaphysical and corporeal, of Elf and Dwarf and Mortal. > > I'd agree with that entirely. > > > How far will you take this "all differences should be evolved" > > opinion? Can't some newly-awakened Men be blondes, while others > > black-haired? > > Of course. > > > And if so, why not have newly-awakened Men be more Hobbit-like > > and hairfooted, and others more thickset (Druedain), and perhaps other > > variations as well. They are still all Mortals, and metaphysically > > speaking they are still one race... > > Yes. I suppose it might be like the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves, > separated and placed in different places throughout Middle-earth. > > The metaphysical differences are more problematic with the Elves, as it > does seem that some actual change took place there, mainly for those > that went to Aman where the Deathless dwelt and where the Light of the > Two Trees was present. But I would be happy to accept that physically, > Elves and Men were created in tribes or kindreds, but that all these > kindreds were metaphysically equal. And then the Elven kindreds changed > metaphyscially over time. > > Christopher > > "They differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep- elves and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft, in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before some came back into the Wide World." The Hobbit -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.