X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:18:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.69.255.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1076620692 24.69.255.206 (Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:18:12 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:18:12 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143244 I was wondering if anyone would care to share some of their most regrettable 'missing scenes' or other such information from Lord of the Rings, the novel. Tolkien made it clear his only regret was making the novel too short (I agree, incidentally), and was wondering what more he *could* have written, to make the book even more perfect than it already is. =) I thought it was really horrible that we never know exactly what happened to Boromir when he was besieged by the orcs of the White Hand. I mean, its the single greatest act of heroism in the novel, in my opinion, and we don't even get to know what happened. Glad Jackson did cover that territory, extremely well I might add. On one of the extended editions Sean Bean was talking about that scene, and you could see he was stoically fighting back tears. ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:41:47 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <102ohrv8i3mf403@corp.supernews.com> References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 53 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143272 "Chris Wright" wrote in message news:o4SWb.483680$ts4.128640@pd7tw3no... > I was wondering if anyone would care to share some of their most regrettable > 'missing scenes' or other such information from Lord of the Rings, the > novel. > > Tolkien made it clear his only regret was making the novel too short (I > agree, incidentally), and was wondering what more he *could* have written, > to make the book even more perfect than it already is. =) 1) More about what happened in the Shire with Fatty Bolger 2) Reactions of the Shire, and of Merry's, Pippin's and Sam's families when they vanished 3) Bilbo's reaction when he saw Frodo being brought in to Rivendell near death after Weathertop 4) Some of the things that took place between Rivendell and Caradhras 5) The moment that Legolas and Gimli realized that they were no longer adversaries, but friends 6) I sort of agree about Boromir's fight to the death, although Pippin did describe it rather vividly to Denethor 7) Frodo's captivity at Cirith Ungol before Sam arrived to save him 8) Reactions of Elrond and Galadriel when they realize the One is destroyed, and that their own rings are now useless 9) Pippin's slaying of the troll--how come he let it fall on him? 10) Merry's reaction on reaching Ithilien to find his kinsmen and Sam unconcious and near death 11) *Frodo's* awakening (Tolkien gives us Sam) 12) Some of what's been going on in the Shire while Our Heroes were away 13) How did Frodo end up Deputy Mayor? 14) A bunch more stuff!! 8-) As you can see, I agree with Tolkien--not *nearly* long enough. *sigh* Barbara > > I thought it was really horrible that we never know exactly what happened to > Boromir when he was besieged by the orcs of the White Hand. I mean, its the > single greatest act of heroism in the novel, in my opinion, and we don't > even get to know what happened. > > Glad Jackson did cover that territory, extremely well I might add. On one of > the extended editions Sean Bean was talking about that scene, and you could > see he was stoically fighting back tears. > > ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.241.225 From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <102ohrv8i3mf403@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 04:59:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.69.255.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1076648354 24.69.255.206 (Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:59:14 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:59:14 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143275 > 1) More about what happened in the Shire with Fatty Bolger > 2) Reactions of the Shire, and of Merry's, Pippin's and Sam's families when > they vanished > 3) Bilbo's reaction when he saw Frodo being brought in to Rivendell near > death after Weathertop > 4) Some of the things that took place between Rivendell and Caradhras > 5) The moment that Legolas and Gimli realized that they were no longer > adversaries, but friends > 6) I sort of agree about Boromir's fight to the death, although Pippin did > describe it rather vividly to Denethor > 7) Frodo's captivity at Cirith Ungol before Sam arrived to save him > 8) Reactions of Elrond and Galadriel when they realize the One is destroyed, > and that their own rings are now useless > 9) Pippin's slaying of the troll--how come he let it fall on him? > 10) Merry's reaction on reaching Ithilien to find his kinsmen and Sam > unconcious and near death > 11) *Frodo's* awakening (Tolkien gives us Sam) > 12) Some of what's been going on in the Shire while Our Heroes were away > 13) How did Frodo end up Deputy Mayor? > 14) A bunch more stuff!! 8-) > As you can see, I agree with Tolkien--not *nearly* long enough. *sigh* > Barbara > Thanks for the comprehensive reply! ###### From: Shanahan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 02:01:48 -0500 Message-ID: References: <102ohrv8i3mf403@corp.supernews.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: max4-ra-44.redsuspenders.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: max4-ra-44.redsuspenders.com X-Trace: news.netacc.net 1076655320 208.3.188.250 (13 Feb 2004 01:55:20 -0500) X-Original-Trace: 13 Feb 2004 01:55:20 -0500, max4-ra-44.redsuspenders.com Lines: 34 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator4-cogent.newsfeed.com!propagator2-sterling!in.nntp.be!news.codefab.com!att541!att542!ip.att.net!news.netacc.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143281 On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:41:47 -0600, "aelfwina" wrote that she would like to have heard: >1) More about what happened in the Shire with Fatty Bolger >2) Reactions of the Shire, and of Merry's, Pippin's and Sam's families when >they vanished >3) Bilbo's reaction when he saw Frodo being brought in to Rivendell near >death after Weathertop >4) Some of the things that took place between Rivendell and Caradhras >5) The moment that Legolas and Gimli realized that they were no longer >adversaries, but friends >6) I sort of agree about Boromir's fight to the death, although Pippin did >describe it rather vividly to Denethor >7) Frodo's captivity at Cirith Ungol before Sam arrived to save him >8) Reactions of Elrond and Galadriel when they realize the One is destroyed, >and that their own rings are now useless >9) Pippin's slaying of the troll--how come he let it fall on him? >10) Merry's reaction on reaching Ithilien to find his kinsmen and Sam >unconcious and near death >11) *Frodo's* awakening (Tolkien gives us Sam) >12) Some of what's been going on in the Shire while Our Heroes were away >13) How did Frodo end up Deputy Mayor? >14) A bunch more stuff!! 8-) >As you can see, I agree with Tolkien--not *nearly* long enough. *sigh* >Barbara > You read fanfic, doncha? - Ciaran S. -------------------------------------- "Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape...You need to believe in things that aren't true. Else how can they *become*?" - t.pratchett ###### Message-ID: <402C9DB5.9753A14F@nowhere.org> From: Jussi Jaatinen <1.1@nowhere.org> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions References: <102ohrv8i3mf403@corp.supernews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:50:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.21.38.181 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1076665817 172.21.38.181 (Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:50:17 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:50:17 EET Organization: Nokia Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143301 aelfwina wrote: > 5) The moment that Legolas and Gimli realized that they were no longer > adversaries, but friends I began writing a maximally cheesy scene for this, but decided to delete it since someone could take it seriously. -JJ ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 04:14:34 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <102p8seqdfl2e83@corp.supernews.com> References: <102ohrv8i3mf403@corp.supernews.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 56 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143304 "Shanahan" wrote in message news:lgto20p056mncvojnse142vdp6kfpu4c3s@4ax.com... > On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:41:47 -0600, "aelfwina" > wrote that she would like to have heard: > >1) More about what happened in the Shire with Fatty Bolger > >2) Reactions of the Shire, and of Merry's, Pippin's and Sam's families when > >they vanished > >3) Bilbo's reaction when he saw Frodo being brought in to Rivendell near > >death after Weathertop > >4) Some of the things that took place between Rivendell and Caradhras > >5) The moment that Legolas and Gimli realized that they were no longer > >adversaries, but friends > >6) I sort of agree about Boromir's fight to the death, although Pippin did > >describe it rather vividly to Denethor > >7) Frodo's captivity at Cirith Ungol before Sam arrived to save him > >8) Reactions of Elrond and Galadriel when they realize the One is destroyed, > >and that their own rings are now useless > >9) Pippin's slaying of the troll--how come he let it fall on him? > >10) Merry's reaction on reaching Ithilien to find his kinsmen and Sam > >unconcious and near death > >11) *Frodo's* awakening (Tolkien gives us Sam) > >12) Some of what's been going on in the Shire while Our Heroes were away > >13) How did Frodo end up Deputy Mayor? > >14) A bunch more stuff!! 8-) > >As you can see, I agree with Tolkien--not *nearly* long enough. *sigh* > >Barbara > > > You read fanfic, doncha? Howdja guess? 8-) Actually I just discovered it a few weeks ago. I was surprised to discover that much of it is better than I expected, and that some is quite good, and a handful are better than good. And of course a lot of it is abysmal. (Thank goodness they seem to put warning labels on most of those. One thing I definitely *don't* want to know more about is the characters' *sex* lives!) But none of it is *Tolkien's* take on these things, which is what I'd *really* like to see. There are only 3 items on that list that I haven't yet found stories on (multiple versions) but they just aren't the same. Barbara > > - Ciaran S. > -------------------------------------- > "Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place > where the falling angel meets the rising ape...You > need to believe in things that aren't true. Else > how can they *become*?" > - t.pratchett ###### From: gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: 13 Feb 2004 03:51:41 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 22 Message-ID: <38aeacaa.0402130351.7dcf1961@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.77.181.10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1076673102 29218 127.0.0.1 (13 Feb 2004 11:51:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:51:42 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143305 "Chris Wright" wrote in message news:... > I was wondering if anyone would care to share some of their most regrettable > 'missing scenes' or other such information from Lord of the Rings, the > novel. > > Tolkien made it clear his only regret was making the novel too short (I > agree, incidentally), and was wondering what more he *could* have written, > to make the book even more perfect than it already is. =) > > I thought it was really horrible that we never know exactly what happened to > Boromir when he was besieged by the orcs of the White Hand. I mean, its the > single greatest act of heroism in the novel, in my opinion, and we don't > even get to know what happened. > > Glad Jackson did cover that territory, extremely well I might add. On one of > the extended editions Sean Bean was talking about that scene, and you could > see he was stoically fighting back tears. 1. Bilbo and Frodo in the Shire. 2. Gandalf and Bombadil after the wars. 3. Frodo exploring Rivendel. 4. Aragorn as King. ###### From: "Jon Meltzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:36:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.75.31.198 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net 1076682992 67.75.31.198 (Fri, 13 Feb 2004 06:36:32 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 06:36:32 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!peer1.stngva01.us.to.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!a91cc34a!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143310 "Chris Wright" wrote in message news:o4SWb.483680$ts4.128640@pd7tw3no... > I was wondering if anyone would care to share some of their most regrettable > 'missing scenes' or other such information from Lord of the Rings, the > novel. Something in "Fellowship" to build up Lotho's role. He appears in _one sentence_ in Chapter 3, then suddenly emerges in RoTK as a bad guy, known to Frodo and friends, and the reader doesn't have any idea who the hell he is. ###### From: "The American" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:06:36 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <102ppvte8tuj9c8@corp.supernews.com> References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143313 "Chris Wright" wrote in message news:o4SWb.483680$ts4.128640@pd7tw3no... > I was wondering if anyone would care to share some of their most regrettable > 'missing scenes' or other such information from Lord of the Rings, the > novel. > > Gandalf fighting the Nazgul at Weathertop "I was hard put to it indeed." Gandalf being captured by Saruman. Actually, any scene that had Gandalf in it could be expanded but I guess if that had happened I wouldn't have found him so interesting. The parting of Elrond and Arwen. The Grey Havens, who and what went onboard and a more detailed description of the structures and layout of the Havens itself. Just to name a few. T.A. ###### From: oscwr@netscape.net (Calvin Rice) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: 13 Feb 2004 08:38:04 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 7 Message-ID: <22680de.0402130838.6e6abfcf@posting.google.com> References: <38aeacaa.0402130351.7dcf1961@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.144.23.215 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1076690285 16925 127.0.0.1 (13 Feb 2004 16:38:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:38:05 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143318 gary4books@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters) wrote in message news:<38aeacaa.0402130351.7dcf1961@posting.google.com>... > ... > 4. Aragorn as King. There is a lot of Aragorn as King in the Appendices. -cr ###### From: oscwr@netscape.net (Calvin Rice) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: 13 Feb 2004 08:41:08 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 10 Message-ID: <22680de.0402130841.64d7f351@posting.google.com> References: <102ohrv8i3mf403@corp.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.144.23.215 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1076690469 17082 127.0.0.1 (13 Feb 2004 16:41:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:41:09 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143319 "aelfwina" wrote in message news:<102ohrv8i3mf403@corp.supernews.com>... > ... > 11) *Frodo's* awakening (Tolkien gives us Sam) > ... Sam is really the central character, from a storytelling point of view, of the Quest part of the adventure. I think it is stronger to keep the focus on Sam's perceptions. -cr ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:42:22 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: References: <102ppvte8tuj9c8@corp.supernews.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 40 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143340 "Chris Wright" wrote: > I was wondering if anyone would care to share some of their most > regrettable 'missing scenes' or other such information from Lord of the Rings, the >novel. Aragorn as Estel/Hope. There are a number of references to hope in relation to Aragorn, for instance: "Is there no escape then?" said Frodo, looking around wildly.... Strider laid his hand on his shoulder. "There is still hope," he said. "You are not alone...." from "A Knife in the Dark" and at Moria after they have escaped, Aragorn: "Farewell, Gandalf!" he cried. "...What hope have we without you?" He turned to the Company. "We must do without hope," he said. and: "Do we go to find our friends and to see Treebeard?" asked Aragorn. "No," said Gandalf. "That is not the road that you must take. I have spoken words of hope. But only of hope. Hope is not victory...." ... Come, Aragorn son of Arathorn!," he said. "...Your next journey is marked by your given word." from "The White Rider" Of course, that all ties in with JRRT's underlying theme of hope, but it seemed more poignant after learning of Aragorn's childhood name. Especially that last remark: "Hope is not victory." It seems to mark a turning point for Aragorn, though this isn't appreciated on the first reading. Barb ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:30:37 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <90rq20hhh8n36r9vju9jh4ernuj42givok@4ax.com> References: <102ohrv8i3mf403@corp.supernews.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143356 On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 02:01:48 -0500, Shanahan wrote: >You read fanfic, doncha? > No.pe And I don't eat dung either. the softrat "LotR: You've seen the epic. Now experience the Whole Story!" mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "Let's jump off that bridge when we come to it." -- Allan Lamport (deceased), former mayor of Toronto. ###### From: Shanahan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:55:43 -0500 Message-ID: References: <102ohrv8i3mf403@corp.supernews.com> <90rq20hhh8n36r9vju9jh4ernuj42givok@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: max2-ra-39.redsuspenders.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: max2-ra-39.redsuspenders.com X-Trace: news.netacc.net 1076730549 208.3.188.149 (13 Feb 2004 22:49:09 -0500) X-Original-Trace: 13 Feb 2004 22:49:09 -0500, max2-ra-39.redsuspenders.com Lines: 21 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator4-cogent.newsfeed.com!propagator2-sterling!in.nntp.be!news.codefab.com!att541!att542!ip.att.net!news.netacc.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143363 On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:30:37 -0800, the softrat wrote: >On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 02:01:48 -0500, Shanahan > wrote: >>You read fanfic, doncha? >> >No.pe And I don't eat dung either. > >the softrat >"LotR: You've seen the epic. Now experience the Whole Story!" >mailto:softrat@pobox.com Hey, why not? If it was good enough for Divine... - Ciaran S. -------------------------------------- "Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape...You need to believe in things that aren't true. Else how can they *become*?" - t.pratchett ###### From: "Pippen" <123@hotmail.com> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <102ohrv8i3mf403@corp.supernews.com> <102p8seqdfl2e83@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Lines: 42 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.8.116.96 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s53 1076731661 24.8.116.96 (Sat, 14 Feb 2004 04:07:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 04:07:41 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 04:07:41 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn53feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143367 "aelfwina" wrote in message news:102p8seqdfl2e83@corp.supernews.com... > > "Shanahan" wrote in message > news:lgto20p056mncvojnse142vdp6kfpu4c3s@4ax.com... > > On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:41:47 -0600, "aelfwina" > Howdja guess? 8-) Actually I just discovered it a few weeks ago. I was > surprised to discover that much of it is better than I expected, and that > some is quite good, and a handful are better than good. And of course a lot > of it is abysmal. (Thank goodness they seem to put warning labels on most > of those. One thing I definitely *don't* want to know more about is the > characters' *sex* lives!) > But none of it is *Tolkien's* take on these things, which is what I'd > *really* like to see. There are only 3 items on that list that I haven't yet > found stories on (multiple versions) but they just aren't the same. > Barbara > > > > > > > - Ciaran S. > > -------------------------------------- > > "Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place > > where the falling angel meets the rising ape...You > > need to believe in things that aren't true. Else > > how can they *become*?" > > - t.pratchett > > What is fanfic? Did a google but not sure I found what you are referring to... Thanks, -p ###### From: "aelfwina" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:44:31 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <102r9tlnn053gac@corp.supernews.com> References: <102ohrv8i3mf403@corp.supernews.com> <102p8seqdfl2e83@corp.supernews.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 58 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143369 "Pippen" <123@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:hahXb.30547$jk2.73035@attbi_s53... > > "aelfwina" wrote in message > news:102p8seqdfl2e83@corp.supernews.com... > > > > "Shanahan" wrote in message > > news:lgto20p056mncvojnse142vdp6kfpu4c3s@4ax.com... > > > On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:41:47 -0600, "aelfwina" > > > Howdja guess? 8-) Actually I just discovered it a few weeks ago. I was > > surprised to discover that much of it is better than I expected, and that > > some is quite good, and a handful are better than good. And of course a > lot > > of it is abysmal. (Thank goodness they seem to put warning labels on most > > of those. One thing I definitely *don't* want to know more about is the > > characters' *sex* lives!) > > But none of it is *Tolkien's* take on these things, which is what I'd > > *really* like to see. There are only 3 items on that list that I haven't > yet > > found stories on (multiple versions) but they just aren't the same. > > Barbara > > > > > > > > > > > > - Ciaran S. > > > -------------------------------------- > > > "Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place > > > where the falling angel meets the rising ape...You > > > need to believe in things that aren't true. Else > > > how can they *become*?" > > > - t.pratchett > > > > > > What is fanfic? Did a google but not sure I found what you are referring > to... Do a search on Stories of Arda. That was the first site I found. Check out Baylor's story "The Care and Feeding of Hobbits." My favorite so far. Then check out West of the Moon for lulleny's "The Prodigal Took". (My other favorite.) Pay close attention to the notes they tell you about the stories so that you can avoid things you dislike. Barbara > > Thanks, > > -p > > ###### From: "jere7my tho?rpe" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Organization: Bongo's Madness Hats References: <102ohrv8i3mf403@corp.supernews.com> <102p8seqdfl2e83@corp.supernews.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: (]tBA'f.\NJ+Si2sv=~u@DV"Xs*+1=QC@C:a,"@3/*jP~e]0107X.#IA/1Up5)LjmT]wG($ KMaAxU>^B;ZEO3i}@"HNn[A*pJQyCZhV[gllmkOr*!"KbWTW,(m~j?5q.dq4C_'1N^P}3 Message-ID: Lines: 26 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 02:21:39 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.75.181.147 X-Trace: news.itd.umich.edu 1076743305 207.75.181.147 (Sat, 14 Feb 2004 02:21:45 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 02:21:45 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!j7y Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143376 In article , "Pippen" <123@hotmail.com> wrote: > What is fanfic? Did a google but not sure I found what you are referring > to... Fanfic = "fan fiction", unauthorized stories set in someone else's fictional world, written by fans. If I write a story about the adventures of Sam and Rosie after Frodo sails for the West, or what would have happened if Saruman got the Ring, that would be fanfic. Slash = erotic fanfic, detailing the romantic involvement of characters who may or may not be romantically involved in the original work. If I write a story about the details of Sam's and Rosie's wedding night, that would be Sam/Rosie slash. (Note the slash between Sam and Rosie, which is where the genre gets its name.) Much (most?) slash is homosexual, so you're more likely to see Frodo/Sam than Sam/Rosie; the original slash was Kirk/Spock. ----j7y -- ************************************************************************** jere7my tho?rpe / 734-769-0913 "There is no spoon." "SPOON!" "There >>> j7y@liws.org <<< is no spoon." "SPOON!" "There is no invert liws to reply via email spoon." "SPOON!" -- The Tick vs. Neo ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <102ppvte8tuj9c8@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Lines: 98 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:53:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.44.103.7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1076763229 82.44.103.7 (Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:53:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:53:49 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!surfnet.nl!news2.telebyte.nl!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!195.129.110.21.MISMATCH!bnewsfeed00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsinpeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143381 The American wrote: > "Chris Wright" wrote >> I was wondering if anyone would care to share some of their most >> regrettable 'missing scenes' or other such information from Lord of >> the Rings, the novel. > Gandalf fighting the Nazgul at Weathertop "I was hard put to it indeed." > The parting of Elrond and Arwen. I would disagree with these ones. I wouldn't want to see all the missing scenes fleshed out by Tolkien or any other writer. Part of the beauty and strength of Tolkien's writing is that he knew when to leave something unsaid, to leave it to the imagination of the reader or to draw a veil of privacy over certain moments. The parting of Elrond and Arwen is one such moment. The scene is much more powerful when left vague and described in remote terms: "None saw her last meeting with Elrond her father, for they went up into the hills and there spoke long together, and bitter was their parting that should endure beyond the ends of the world." (Many Partings, RotK). Any scene with dialogue would have less impact than this. The passage above works well in a book, but in the film the comparable moment would I guess be the moment where Elrond asks Arwen: "Do I not also have your love?" And the way some people like that scene but some hate it, is a good example of how some things are best left unsaid as more detail is, in this case, less powerful as a piece of writing. Gandalf's battle with the Nazgul on Weathertop is another example, as well as his battle with the Balrog. Going into more detail would restrict the reader's imagination, but maybe Tolkien recognised that he wouldn't be able to such scenes justice in detail, even by his standards of writing. Gandalf in 'The White Rider' (TT): "But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough?" And for the battle on Weathertop, we hear about it in the chapter "A Knife in the Dark" (FotR): "As Frodo lay, tired but unable to close his eyes, it seemed to him that far away there came a light in the eastern sky: it flashed and faded many times. It was not the dawn, for that was still some hours off. 'What is the light?' he said to Strider, who had risen and was standing, gazing ahead into the night. 'I do not know,' Strider answered. 'It is too distant to make out. It is like lightning that leaps up from the hilltops.' Frodo lay down again, but for a long while he could still see the white flashes, and against them the tall dark figure of Strider, standing silent and watchful. At last he passed into uneasy sleep." Both these scenes satisfy me and I don't feel any need to have the story fleshed out. The Weathertop episode in particular serves its purpose to emphasize the gathering tension as seen from the point-of-view of the hobbits, and is much more dramatic and powerful when told in this way. Tolkien also left things unsaid when he made references to the mythology that underpinned LotR. These references give the tale its well-known feeling of depth and genuine history. Examples are too numerous to quote, but some that spring to mind are Faramir's references to Numenor. Again, moments where I am glad that Tolkien did not explain everything there and then (though of course The Silmarillion told us the Tale of Numenor). The final example of a scene where Tolkien left things unsaid, and created a much more powerful effect than would be possible if he had gone into detail, is the last moments of Frodo in the tale: "And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise." (The Grey Havens, RotK) For me, that description is just right. It felt so right to leave Frodo at that moment and return to Sam on the quayside at the Grey Havens. The wrenching contrast between the sadness and joy are both bitter and sweet, and any attempt to follow Frodo and Bilbo and narrate their continuing tale is doomed to failure. So while some of the suggestions in this thread, about what extra scene we would like to have seen in LotR, are reasonable, it must be remembered that a great part of the beauty of the book, and Tolkien's skill, was to adopt a remote style that at times did _not_ go into detail, and left things unsaid. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: oscwr@netscape.net (Calvin Rice) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: 14 Feb 2004 07:31:13 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 9 Message-ID: <22680de.0402140731.29898e90@posting.google.com> References: <102ohrv8i3mf403@corp.supernews.com> <102p8seqdfl2e83@corp.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.144.22.202 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1076772674 7229 127.0.0.1 (14 Feb 2004 15:31:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:31:14 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143386 "Pippen" <123@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:... > What is fanfic? Did a google but not sure I found what you are referring > to... The most well known and popular examples of Tolkien fanfic are the Peter Jackson movies. -cr ###### From: "Kristian Damm Jensen" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:30:39 +0100 Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 0x3e42ad87.adsl.cybercity.dk (62.66.173.135) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1076841041 42574375 D 62.66.173.135 ([146708]) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!0x3e42ad87.adsl.cybercity.DK!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143451 Jon Meltzer wrote: > "Chris Wright" wrote in message > news:o4SWb.483680$ts4.128640@pd7tw3no... >> I was wondering if anyone would care to share some of their most >> regrettable 'missing scenes' or other such information from Lord of >> the Rings, the novel. > > Something in "Fellowship" to build up Lotho's role. He appears in _one > sentence_ in Chapter 3, then suddenly emerges in RoTK as a bad guy, > known to Frodo and friends, and the reader doesn't have any idea who > the hell he is. Add Rose to the list of characters that could use some more build-up during the early phases of the story. (The e-text handles her role *much* better, though her role here are changed a little bit.) -- Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk In C we had to code our own bugs. In C++ we can inherit them. C gives you enough rope to hang yourself. C++ also gives you the tree objectto tie it to. With C you can shoot yourself in the leg. With C++ you can reuse the bullet. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:28:45 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <102ohrv8i3mf403@corp.supernews.com> <102p8seqdfl2e83@corp.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-u211.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1076862983 25607 62.103.251.211 (15 Feb 2004 16:36:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:36:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143468 "jere7my tho?rpe" wrote in message news:j7y-5F8A00.02213914022004@visonmassif.rs.itd.umich.edu... > In article , > "Pippen" <123@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > What is fanfic? Did a google but not sure I found what you are referring > > to... > > Fanfic = "fan fiction", unauthorized stories set in someone else's > fictional world, written by fans. If I write a story about the > adventures of Sam and Rosie after Frodo sails for the West, or what > would have happened if Saruman got the Ring, that would be fanfic. > > Slash = erotic fanfic, detailing the romantic involvement of > characters who may or may not be romantically involved in the original > work. If I write a story about the details of Sam's and Rosie's wedding > night, that would be Sam/Rosie slash. (Note the slash between Sam and > Rosie, which is where the genre gets its name.) Much (most?) slash is > homosexual, so you're more likely to see Frodo/Sam than Sam/Rosie; the > original slash was Kirk/Spock. Actually the definition of slash seems to be that it has to be about a homosexual pairing -- male/female stories are called "het", I think. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Alan Reynolds" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 00:10:13 -0000 Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <102ohrv8i3mf403@corp.supernews.com> <102p8seqdfl2e83@corp.supernews.com> <22680de.0402140731.29898e90@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.134.76.235 X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 1076890218 13957 217.134.76.235 (16 Feb 2004 00:10:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 2004 00:10:18 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143485 "Calvin Rice" wrote in message news:22680de.0402140731.29898e90@posting.google.com... > "Pippen" <123@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:... > > > What is fanfic? Did a google but not sure I found what you are referring > > to... > > The most well known and popular examples of Tolkien fanfic are the > Peter Jackson movies. > > -cr Yup, you're right there. Alan ###### From: "Jon Meltzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 00:47:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.75.31.155 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net 1076892463 67.75.31.155 (Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:47:43 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:47:43 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.frii.net!newsfeed.frii.net!140.99.99.194.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!a91cc34a!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143487 "Kristian Damm Jensen" wrote in message news:c0nhoh$18j8h7$1@ID-146708.news.uni-berlin.de... > Add Rose to the list of characters that could use some more build-up during > the early phases of the story. I agree. Admittedly Sam doesn't become the protagonist until TT, but a few mentions of Rosie before RoTK would have been nice. (It would also have been a good bonding moment for Aragorn and Sam; both with a girl waiting at home.) ###### Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:50:24 +0100 From: Tom Peters <""tom\"@(none)> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020623 Debian/1.0.0-0.woody.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions References: <102ppvte8tuj9c8@corp.supernews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Message-ID: <403021e1$0$31132$e4fe514c@dreader14.news.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.109.250.130 X-Trace: 1076896225 dreader14.news.xs4all.nl 31132 [::ffff:194.109.250.130]:12450 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!feed1.news.be.easynet.net!newsfeed.bit.nl!newsfeed.bit.nl!newsfeeder.concepts.nl!borium.box.nl!newsfeed.wxs.nl!transit.news.xs4all.nl!rhinewceros.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143496 Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > Tolkien also left things unsaid when he made references to the mythology > that underpinned LotR. These references give the tale its well-known > feeling of depth and genuine history. Examples are too numerous to > quote, but some that spring to mind are Faramir's references to Numenor. > Again, moments where I am glad that Tolkien did not explain everything > there and then (though of course The Silmarillion told us the Tale of > Numenor). Agree: one of the things that originally fascinated me in LotRs were the hints at age-old and half-forgotten histories and mysteries. The Silmarillion mostly spoiled that. It is one thing to wonder and ponder upon a dolmen, and another to know how, when, why, and for whom it was built - such detailed knowledge annihilates most of the magic. ###### From: "TeaLady (Mari C.)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: 16 Feb 2004 03:07:18 GMT Organization: Lint Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <102ppvte8tuj9c8@corp.supernews.com> <403021e1$0$31132$e4fe514c@dreader14.news.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.net (68.170.200.65) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1076900838 43913248 I 68.170.200.65 ([137949]) User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 x-face: 8S?dQ)V'hP@.Lf3Ot.sv"e+zw7tDI4*y7F3ySvbXP%qrfyUVyXTSovH~=C}5]"*4K`e4q_@ ]OG'MH[A!iPTo6O:Ru:FUr,R6|%`H^>U:F)MjpAS&{^3A/Mq=/0ewP)VoUj7E^)Ilg`n%{z=R0d88: O{^)NYf]Ys.D#w`R':o+%gkH,f.bZyYp]`)+}?f8$&{,Gz@z9ou=N]Z}o0CI]q&n\\kz/Op@\cg15@S[z&bb'f`2T,a> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!borium.box.nl!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143506 Tom Peters <""tom\"@(none)> wrote in news:403021e1$0$31132$e4fe514c@dreader14.news.xs4all.nl: > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > >> Tolkien also left things unsaid when he made references to >> the mythology that underpinned LotR. These references give >> the tale its well-known feeling of depth and genuine >> history. Examples are too numerous to quote, but some that >> spring to mind are Faramir's references to Numenor. Again, >> moments where I am glad that Tolkien did not explain >> everything there and then (though of course The >> Silmarillion told us the Tale of Numenor). > > Agree: one of the things that originally fascinated me in > LotRs were the hints at age-old and half-forgotten histories > and mysteries. The Silmarillion mostly spoiled that. It is > one thing to wonder and ponder upon a dolmen, and another to > know how, when, why, and for whom it was built - such > detailed knowledge annihilates most of the magic. > For me, the magic is in the dolmen still existing after all those years - knowing whom it was erected for makes it a bit more interesting in a historical way, but doesn't take the magic out. For me, reading the Sil didn't lessen the magic of LoTR. It gave me a glimpse into the reasons why some of the characters acted as they did, given the history of how they got to be in that place, at that time. Knowing more about Aragorn's lineage and the history he knew allowed me to see him more clearly, and the same went for many other characters. In fact, the fact that the LoTR characters, some of whom lived the history as contained in the Sil, could still go on in the face of the knowledge of the horrendous strength and power of Sauron (even without the ring), was more magical and heroic. Magic must be like beauty in many respects - it is in the eye of the beholder. -- mc ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.240.6 Reply-To: "Chris Wright" From: "Chris Wright" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <102ppvte8tuj9c8@corp.supernews.com> <403021e1$0$31132$e4fe514c@dreader14.news.xs4all.nl> Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <4%XXb.521800$X%5.216196@pd7tw2no> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 04:51:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.69.255.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1076907072 24.69.255.206 (Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:51:12 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:51:12 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.usenetserver.com!pd7cy2so!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143510 "Tom Peters" <""tom\"@(none)> wrote in message news:403021e1$0$31132$e4fe514c@dreader14.news.xs4all.nl... > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > > > Tolkien also left things unsaid when he made references to the mythology > > that underpinned LotR. These references give the tale its well-known > > feeling of depth and genuine history. Examples are too numerous to > > quote, but some that spring to mind are Faramir's references to Numenor. > > Again, moments where I am glad that Tolkien did not explain everything > > there and then (though of course The Silmarillion told us the Tale of > > Numenor). > > Agree: one of the things that originally fascinated me in LotRs were the > hints at age-old and half-forgotten histories and mysteries. The > Silmarillion mostly spoiled that. It is one thing to wonder and ponder > upon a dolmen, and another to know how, when, why, and for whom it was > built - such detailed knowledge annihilates most of the magic. Agreed, and well put. ###### From: Tord Kallqvist Romstad Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: 16 Feb 2004 14:00:17 +0100 Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 26 Sender: romstad@aload.uio.no Message-ID: References: <102ppvte8tuj9c8@corp.supernews.com> <403021e1$0$31132$e4fe514c@dreader14.news.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: aload.uio.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: readme.uio.no 1076936417 29938 129.240.222.178 (16 Feb 2004 13:00:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uio.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:00:17 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 X-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 14:00:01 MET (news01.chello.no) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!amsnews01.chello.com!news01.chello.no!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143529 Tom Peters <""tom\"@(none)> writes: > Christopher Kreuzer wrote: > > > Tolkien also left things unsaid when he made references to the mythology > > that underpinned LotR. These references give the tale its well-known > > feeling of depth and genuine history. Examples are too numerous to > > quote, but some that spring to mind are Faramir's references to Numenor. > > Again, moments where I am glad that Tolkien did not explain everything > > there and then (though of course The Silmarillion told us the Tale of > > Numenor). > > Agree: one of the things that originally fascinated me in LotRs were > the hints at age-old and half-forgotten histories and mysteries. The > Silmarillion mostly spoiled that. It is one thing to wonder and > ponder upon a dolmen, and another to know how, when, why, and for whom > it was built - such detailed knowledge annihilates most of the > magic. I don't agree. Reading Silmarillion explains some mysteries, doesn't explain others, and introduces countless new mysteries and unanswered questions. For me, the sense of magic and mystery is even greater after having read Silmarillion. -- Tord Romstad ###### From: oscwr@netscape.net (Calvin Rice) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: 16 Feb 2004 06:15:27 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <22680de.0402160615.4a47b9f0@posting.google.com> References: <102ppvte8tuj9c8@corp.supernews.com> <403021e1$0$31132$e4fe514c@dreader14.news.xs4all.nl> <4%XXb.521800$X%5.216196@pd7tw2no> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.144.135.221 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1076940928 21780 127.0.0.1 (16 Feb 2004 14:15:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 14:15:28 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator4-cogent.newsfeed.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!4.24.21.153!chcgil2-snh1.gtei.net!news.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed2.dallas1.level3.net!news.level3.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143537 "Chris Wright" wrote in message news:<4%XXb.521800$X%5.216196@pd7tw2no>... > "Tom Peters" <""tom\"@(none)> wrote in message > news:403021e1$0$31132$e4fe514c@dreader14.news.xs4all.nl... > > Agree: one of the things that originally fascinated me in LotRs were the > > hints at age-old and half-forgotten histories and mysteries. The > > Silmarillion mostly spoiled that. It is one thing to wonder and ponder > > upon a dolmen, and another to know how, when, why, and for whom it was > > built - such detailed knowledge annihilates most of the magic. > Agreed, and well put. No it doesn't, and the paragraph above sounds a bit like plagarism of Shippey. You might read the exchange between Shippey and Christopher Tolkien in the Foreword to 'The Book of Lost Tales' and in Shippey's 'The Road to Middle Earth', 2nd edition. The Silmarillion spoils nothing for the vast majority of its readers, IMO. -cr ###### From: rdwillia@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Richard Williams) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:59:34 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BIOSCI/MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <403021e1$0$31132$e4fe514c@dreader14.news.xs4all.nl> <4%XXb.521800$X%5.216196@pd7tw2no> <22680de.0402160615.4a47b9f0@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tin.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk X-Trace: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk 1076950774 8393 193.62.192.50 (16 Feb 2004 16:59:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@net.bio.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:59:34 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!server1.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!rfcgr.mrc.ac.uk!hgmp.mrc.ac.uk!rdwillia Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143550 In article <22680de.0402160615.4a47b9f0@posting.google.com>, Calvin Rice wrote: >"Chris Wright" wrote in message news:<4%XXb.521800$X%5.216196@pd7tw2no>... >> "Tom Peters" <""tom\"@(none)> wrote in message >> news:403021e1$0$31132$e4fe514c@dreader14.news.xs4all.nl... > >> > Agree: one of the things that originally fascinated me in LotRs were the >> > hints at age-old and half-forgotten histories and mysteries. The >> > Silmarillion mostly spoiled that. >The Silmarillion spoils nothing for the vast majority of its readers, IMO. I'm part of this vast majority, though I think anyone who reads the Silmarillion before the LOTR will be missing something. Tolkien himself seems to have been acutely aware of the power of the 'untold' story: "A story must be told or there'll be no story, yet it is the untold stories that are most moving. I think you are moved by Celebrimbor because it conveys a sudden sense of endless untold stories: mountains seen far away, never to be climbed, distant trees (like Niggle's) never to be approached - or if so only to become 'near trees' (unless in Paradise or N's Parish)." (Letter (#96) to Christopher Tolkien, 30 Jan 1945). (does Shippey also quote this?). Of course, even with the publication of all the HoME volumes, there are still plenty of untold or only briefly-sketched stories (including Celebrimbor's). Richard. ###### Reply-To: "Raven" From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <102ppvte8tuj9c8@corp.supernews.com> <403021e1$0$31132$e4fe514c@dreader14.news.xs4all.nl> Subject: Re: Tolkien's most objectionable omissions Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:10:58 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.38 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1076973148 195.82.196.38 (Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:12:28 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:12:28 CET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.e.nsc.no!nsc.no!nextra.com!uio.no!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143589 "Tom Peters" <""tom\"@(none)> skrev i en meddelelse news:403021e1$0$31132$e4fe514c@dreader14.news.xs4all.nl... > Agree: one of the things that originally fascinated me in LotRs were the > hints at age-old and half-forgotten histories and mysteries. The > Silmarillion mostly spoiled that. It is one thing to wonder and ponder > upon a dolmen, and another to know how, when, why, and for whom it was > built - such detailed knowledge annihilates most of the magic. For me that would be true only if new mysteries were not set before us. In science every question answered through experiment raises five new ones. A good fantasy writer accomplishes something similar. Korax.