From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: On Fairy-Stories (Was Re: How did Orodruin work in the second age?) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:22:28 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: References: <3iag205lje49lpcum2u4643shmracrn7gm@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 57 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143151 On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 01:30:53 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote: >> One may understand the cosmos, but never >> the ego; the self is more distant than any star.... >> G.K. Chesterton again, "The Logic of Elfland" > >But I'm enjoying the massive quotes in your signature even more.... > >G.K. Chesterton 2 - 1 Belba Grubb :-) Thanks, though I probably shouldn't have put them in there as they aren't Tolkien-related, at least on the surface. But it is of interest to compare some of the things that Chesterton said in this selection from "Orthodoxy" (1909) that some call "The Logic of Elfland," for instance, at http://www.phys.ucalgary.ca/~bjackel/misc/logic_of_elfland.html, and those JRRT's remarks "On Fairy-Stories" (1938). For instance: JRRT: "Faerie itself may perhaps most nearly be translated by Magic—but it is magic of a peculiar mood and power, at the furthest pole from the vulgar devices of the laborious, scientific, magician." GKC: "Here is the peculiar perfection of tone and truth in the nursery tales. The man of science says, "Cut the stalk, and the apple will fall"; but he says it calmly, as if one idea really led up to the other. The witch in the fairy tale says, "Blow the horn, and the ogre's castle will fall"; but she does not say it as if it were something in which the effect obviously arose out of the cause. Doubless she has given the advice to many champions, and has seen many castles fall, but she does not lose either her wonder or her reason. She does not muddle her head until it imagines a necessary mental connection between a horn and a falling tower. But the scientific men do muddle their heads, until they imagine a necessary mental connection between an apple leaving the tree and an apple reaching the ground. They do really talk as if they had found not only a set of marvellous facts, but a truth connecting these facts. They do talk as if the connection of two strange things physically connected them philosophically. They feel that because one incomprehensible thing constantly follows another incomprehensible thing the two together somehow make up a comprehensible thing...In fairyland we avoid the word "law"; but in the land of science they are singularly fond of it." I wonder if anyone would be interested in a discussion of these two essays by JRRT and GKC? I looked back to see what had already been posted on this and found the poem "Mythopoeia" posted on RABT (see http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22on+fairy+stories%22+group:rec.arts.books.tolkien&start=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=1993Apr5.095842.2607%40news.yale.edu&rnum=162) which certainly is extra grist for the discussion. I have to read "On Fairy Stories" again and the poem, which I don't remember ever reading before, so there are no pre-planned "discussion points" to list, but if anybody else is interested in this, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the similarites and contrasts in the views of Faerie/Elfland put forth by these two eminent British writers, Tolkien and Chesterton. Barb ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: On Fairy-Stories (Was Re: How did Orodruin work in the second age?) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:36:32 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 79 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!teaser.fr!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:143493 Don't mind me...I'll just natter on here in the corner (g) because I think this Chesterton-Tolkien is fascinating and with much potential for discussion. Have just finished "On Fairy-Stories" again, and there is a great deal to it that I won't go into just now as it merits a discussion not a soliloquy. Suffice to say that JRRT mentions Chesterton three times: 1) with regard to children as an intended audience for fairy-stores (a contemporaneous quote taken from GKC's "The Coloured Lands," published in 1938); 2) Mooreeffoc, from a GKC essay on Dickens, though JRRT commented on the limitation of such an approach in acting "as a time-telescope focused on one spot" rather than a door to recovery of the sense of wonder we once had regarding ordinary things; and 3) use of a Chesterton quote (from where and when, I don't know) to illustrate the insignificance of some modern things, in JRRT's example, electric street lights, when compared to something "more permanent and fundamental...[l]ightning, for example." However, there is much in Tolkien's speech that reminds me of things I have read in Chesterton. And I just know GKC would have loved "The old that is good does not wither; deep roots are not touched by the frost." What had really gotten me going on the whole business, however, was comparing a quote from Akallabeth -- "'Avallone is vanished from the Earth and the Land of Aman is taken away, and in the world of this present darkness they cannot be found. Yet once they were, and therefore they still are, in true being, and in the whole shape of the world as at first it was devised.' ...the loremasters of Men said that a Straight Road must still be, for those that were permitted to find it. And they taught that, while the new world fell away, the old road and the path of the memory of the West still went on, as it were a mighty bridge invisible...." with what GKC had to say at the very end of "Logic of Elfland": We have all read in scientific books, and, indeed, in all romances, the story of the man who has forgotten his name. This man walks about the streets and can see and appreciate everything; only he cannot remember who he is. Well, every man is that man in the story. Every man has forgotten who he is. One may understand the cosmos, but never the ego; the self is more distant than any star. Thou shalt love the Lord the God; but thou shalt not know thyself. We are all under the same mental calamity; we have all forgotten our names. We have all forgotten what we really are. All that we call common sense and rationality and practicality and positivism only means that for certain dead levels of our life we forgot that we have forgotten. All that we call spirit and art and ecstasy only means that for one awful instant we remember that we forgot. Tolkien's "[y]et once they were, and therefore they still are, in true being, and in the whole shape of the world as at first it was devised" and what he says about the path of memory (echoes, or more probably premonitions of which are heard in his discussion of Recovery in "On Fairy-Stories") is very similar to GKC's "remember[ing] that we forgot." I wonder if it could be said that is another way to describe the way to the Straight Path, and if what GKC calls "common sense and rationality and practicality and positivism" are all things that partake of the world of mortals, in which the paths are bent. That is to say, GKC may be describing in somewhat more realistic terms what JRRT draped in beautiful fantasy. Just some woolgathering. And I loved Mythopoeia: "...I bow not yet before the Iron Crown, nor cast my own small golden sceptre down." GKC was aware of and kept a tight grip on the sceptre he carried, too. Barb ____ ____ Freedom means never having to be political. ____ ###### From: "A Tsar Is Born" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: Subject: Re: On Fairy-Stories (Was Re: How did Orodruin work in the second age?) Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 05:07:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.84.162.192 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1077340038 162.84.162.192 (Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:07:18 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:07:18 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!d1cafec9!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144008 "Belba Grubb from Stock" wrote in message news:q6703053gb926fvl36ve436f9oe06qsnib@4ax.com... > And I loved Mythopoeia: "...I bow not yet before the Iron Crown, nor > cast my own small golden sceptre down." > > GKC was aware of and kept a tight grip on the sceptre he carried, too. Well it's a very GUELF way of looking at life, and both Chesterton and Tolkien were devout Catholics and regretted the Reformation. The Star Wars movies are also very Guelf. As a Ghibelline from wayback (at least Fred Barbarossa) I rather resented them for that. In Tolkien's world, happily, there is no papacy (unless Gandalf be it) so I can accommodate without difficulty. Tsar Parmathule ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: On Fairy-Stories (Was Re: How did Orodruin work in the second age?) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 09:46:18 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: <1qhh30dq36ecumnt195rf7pr1pkifpdvqe@4ax.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 50 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!nnx.oleane.net!oleane!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144156 Ach, that's all politics, which I don't do. This is about myths and Faerie, not about politics of any sort. Chesterton in "Logic of Elfland" and more so in that essay's larger setting of "Orthodoxy" (the first chapter of which is most appropriately entitled "The Maniac"), and JRRT in "Mythopoeia," are writing about belief in something beyond oneself and its influence on oneself after it is acquired. In particular, Mythopoeia is addressed to C.S. Lewis prior to that individual's conversion to theism: "To one who said that myths were lies and therefore worthless, even though 'breathed through silver.'" "On Fairy-Stories" additionally tackles some of the actual building blocks, so to speak, and process. It's fascinating to read now, knowing what JRRT was about to create ("The Lord of the Rings"). It so happens that the early 20th Century Catholic Church in Britain influenced both men, but if the named works by GKC and JRRT are actually opposed to anything apart from what they themselves actually describe, it is to the sort of demand Robert Frost, rooted in the Industrial Revolution and the science it spawned (wearing "The Iron Crown," if you will), once made of a star, although he did eventually learn his lesson from the thing. The very much smaller, more highly circumscribed and self-centered concerns of "Guelf" and "Ghibelline" are below both men's interests and scope here. At least Frost was looking in the right direction (outside himself). Barb On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 05:07:18 GMT, "A Tsar Is Born" wrote: > >"Belba Grubb from Stock" wrote in message >news:q6703053gb926fvl36ve436f9oe06qsnib@4ax.com... >> And I loved Mythopoeia: "...I bow not yet before the Iron Crown, nor >> cast my own small golden sceptre down." >> >> GKC was aware of and kept a tight grip on the sceptre he carried, too. > >Well it's a very GUELF way of looking at life, and both Chesterton and >Tolkien were devout Catholics and regretted the Reformation. The Star Wars >movies are also very Guelf. As a Ghibelline from wayback (at least Fred >Barbarossa) I rather resented them for that. In Tolkien's world, happily, >there is no papacy (unless Gandalf be it) so I can accommodate without >difficulty. > >Tsar Parmathule > ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: On Fairy-Stories (Was Re: How did Orodruin work in the second age?) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 15:45:42 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <1qhh30dq36ecumnt195rf7pr1pkifpdvqe@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144185 It seems "Belba Grubb from Stock" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Ach, that's all politics, which I don't do. WHAT's all politics? I stopped reading at this point because I couldn't figure out what you were referring to. Then I scanned down and saw the problem: makes it harder to follow discussions. before the material you're commenting on, it When you put your comments http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/unice.htm#upside -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <1qhh30dq36ecumnt195rf7pr1pkifpdvqe@4ax.com> Subject: Re: On Fairy-Stories (Was Re: How did Orodruin work in the second age?) Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <6Qa_b.5760$f83.52773058@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:21:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.166.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077492098 82.43.166.216 (Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:21:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:21:38 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!c03.atl99!news.usenetserver.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144203 Stan Brown wrote: > makes it harder to follow discussions. > before the material you're commenting on, it > When you put your comments But it is a very interesting discussion. I might join in when I've found the time to read Mythopoeia and Orthodoxy. That'll probably be sometime next year. :-( ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: On Fairy-Stories (Was Re: How did Orodruin work in the second age?) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:03:17 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: References: <1qhh30dq36ecumnt195rf7pr1pkifpdvqe@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!nnx.oleane.net!oleane!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144225 On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 15:45:42 -0500, Stan Brown wrote: >makes it harder to follow discussions. >before the material you're commenting on, it >When you put your comments Cute. However, this post you're referring to does immediately follow the original post to which it responds and is appended to it: there is no real confusion there for anyone actually following the thread. Perhaps you need a better newsreader, one that indents messages made in reply to earlier messages in a thread. Now, was there anything in the substance of the posts that you would care to comment on? Barb ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: On Fairy-Stories (Was Re: How did Orodruin work in the second age?) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:28:41 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <1qhh30dq36ecumnt195rf7pr1pkifpdvqe@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!elnk-atl-nf1!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144229 It seems "Belba Grubb from Stock" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Perhaps you need a better newsreader, one that indents messages made >in reply to earlier messages in a thread. The issue is not indention, but your posting upside down. Please see the FAQ. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: On Fairy-Stories (Was Re: How did Orodruin work in the second age?) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:40:24 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: References: <1qhh30dq36ecumnt195rf7pr1pkifpdvqe@4ax.com> <6Qa_b.5760$f83.52773058@news-text.cableinet.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 76 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news2.euro.net!news.moat.net!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144228 On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:21:38 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote: >But it is a very interesting discussion. I might join in when I've found >the time to read Mythopoeia and Orthodoxy. That'll probably be sometime >next year. :-( "Orthodoxy" will tie you up for a long time -- don't do it unless you really like Chesterton (and even then you should probably read "Heretics" first). It's mostly all off topic anyway. This is limited only to that small essay, called by some "The Logic of Elfland" (see http://www.phys.ucalgary.ca/~bjackel/misc/logic_of_elfland.html), in roughly the middle of Chapter IV of "Orthodoxy." Not long at all. I selected it because it's good and also because it most directly addresses fairy tales/nursery stories at that point (although GKC does briefly mention Andrew Lang later in the chapter, another nexus with JRRT's speech on fairy-stories). And "Mythopoeia" is really just a poem -- not time-taxing in the least. See RABT post that contains it at (watch the wrap) http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22on+fairy+stories%22+group:rec.arts.books.tolkien&start=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=1993Apr5.095842.2607%40news.yale.edu&rnum=162 What will really take a lot of time and mental energy is "On Fairy-Stories." That's very long and written by a genius at a time when he was just about to embark on his masterpiece . Written for other geniuses, too. It's not a quick read. GKC is more accessible. JRRT, though, is more thorough and makes deeper, more well thought out points. Enjoy! See ya next year. (g) Barb _____ "They had moored their boat one night under a bank veiled in high grasses and short pollarded trees. Sleep, after heavy sculling, had come to them early, and by a corresponding accident they awoke before it was light. To speak more strictly, they awoke before it was daylight; for a large lemon moon was only just setting in the forest of high grass above their heads, and the sky was of a vivid violet-blue, nocturnal but bright. Both men had simultaneously a reminiscence of childhood, of the elfin and adventurous time when tall weeds close over us like woods. Standing up thus against the large low moon, the daisies really seemed to be giant daisies, the dandelions to be giant dandelions. Somehow it reminded them of the dado of a nursery wall-paper. The drop of the river-bed sufficed to sink them under the roots of all shrubs and flowers and make them gaze upwards at the grass. 'By Jove!' said Flambeau, 'it's like being in fairyland.' "Father Brown sat bolt upright in the boat and crossed himself. His movement was so abrupt that his friend asked him, with a mild stare, what was the matter. "'The people who wrote the mediaeval ballads,' answered the priest, 'knew more about fairies than you do. It isn't only nice things that happen in fairyland.' "'Oh, bosh!' said Flambeau. 'Only nice things could happen under such an innocent moon. I am for pushing on now and seeing what does really come. We may die and rot before we ever see again such a moon or such a mood.' "'All right,' said Father Brown. 'I never said it was always wrong to enter fairyland. I only said it was always dangerous.'" --- Chesterton, "The Sins of Prince Saradine" (1911) ******************************** "The realm of fairy-story is wide and deep and high and filled with many things: all manner of beasts and birds are found there; shoreless seas and stars uncounted; beauty that is an enchantment, and an ever-present peril; both joy and sorrow as sharp as swords. In that realm a man may, perhaps, count himself fortunate to have wandered, but its very richness and strangeness tie the tongue of a traveller who would report them. And while he is there it is dangerous for him to ask too many questions, lest the gates should be shut and the keys be lost." --- J.R.R. Tolkien, "On Fairy-Stories" (1938) ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: On Fairy-Stories (Was Re: How did Orodruin work in the second age?) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:26:55 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: <0m2k305od67em9qb2pfn7qn4ns8m9qi9f2@4ax.com> References: <1qhh30dq36ecumnt195rf7pr1pkifpdvqe@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 36 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.telebyte.nl!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144268 On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:28:41 -0500, Stan Brown wrote: >It seems "Belba Grubb from Stock" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Perhaps you need a better newsreader, one that indents messages made >>in reply to earlier messages in a thread. > >The issue is not indention, but your posting upside down. Please see >the FAQ. I did and have done so in the past. Your FAQ is extensive, very well done, and where it relates to JRRT and his writing it has proved very helpful to me before and will continue to be very helpful to me for a long time to come. However, when any FAQ is used to the detriment of a thread -- and in this particular thread, the issue is neither message layout nor correct quoting sequence (which as we see all around us all of the time is a matter of individual taste, not an order dictated as if it were a programming requirement of some sort of a Usenet "operating system"); the issue, rather, is one of nursery tales and fairy-stories and discussion of the opinions on same of Tolkien and another writer, Chesterton, who possibly had a strong influence on JRRT's view of the matter -- when any FAQ is used to distract from the actual thread, then that FAQ is not helpful but harmful and should be let go. Let it go, Stan. I'm not going to do this with you. There are better, more fun things to talk about. Again, is there anything in the substance of the posts that you might care to comment on? Barb _____ "The important thing is to be in love with something." Ray Bradbury, 2/5/2004 ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: On Fairy-Stories (Was Re: How did Orodruin work in the second age?) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:49:33 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <1qhh30dq36ecumnt195rf7pr1pkifpdvqe@4ax.com> <0m2k305od67em9qb2pfn7qn4ns8m9qi9f2@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!c03.atl99!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144270 It seems "Belba Grubb from Stock" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I did and have done so in the past. Your FAQ is extensive, very well >done, and where it relates to JRRT and his writing it has proved very >helpful to me before and will continue to be very helpful to me for a >long time to come. It's not my FAQ. Evidently you have not read it with attention. >However, when any FAQ is used to the detriment of a thread Translation: when _you_ are doing things wrong to the detriment of a thread, and someone points out to you that not only is this bad but it had been documented to be bad ... -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: On Fairy-Stories (Was Re: How did Orodruin work in the second age?) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:40:09 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: <7fal301h5m4flj5360jshr5bf8cjcs6a9n@4ax.com> References: <1qhh30dq36ecumnt195rf7pr1pkifpdvqe@4ax.com> <0m2k305od67em9qb2pfn7qn4ns8m9qi9f2@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!news.newsland.it!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144347 Uh...I'll take that as a negative reply to my question twice asked. Begone, sir -- your dyscatastrophe cannot darken the joy of this eucatastrophic experience of "On Fairy-Stories"; and in "The Logic of Elfland" there are no FAQs (other than "Is it true?") -- there is only wonder. Barb On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:49:33 -0500, Stan Brown wrote: >It seems "Belba Grubb from Stock" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>I did and have done so in the past. Your FAQ is extensive, very well >>done, and where it relates to JRRT and his writing it has proved very >>helpful to me before and will continue to be very helpful to me for a >>long time to come. > >It's not my FAQ. Evidently you have not read it with attention. > >>However, when any FAQ is used to the detriment of a thread > >Translation: when _you_ are doing things wrong to the detriment of a >thread, and someone points out to you that not only is this bad but >it had been documented to be bad ... ###### From: "TeaLady (Mari C.)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: On Fairy-Stories (Was Re: How did Orodruin work in the second age?) Date: 24 Feb 2004 03:40:31 GMT Organization: Lint Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <1qhh30dq36ecumnt195rf7pr1pkifpdvqe@4ax.com> <0m2k305od67em9qb2pfn7qn4ns8m9qi9f2@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.net (68.170.200.65) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077594031 52119625 I 68.170.200.65 ([137949]) User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09 x-face: 8S?dQ)V'hP@.Lf3Ot.sv"e+zw7tDI4*y7F3ySvbXP%qrfyUVyXTSovH~=C}5]"*4K`e4q_@ ]OG'MH[A!iPTo6O:Ru:FUr,R6|%`H^>U:F)MjpAS&{^3A/Mq=/0ewP)VoUj7E^)Ilg`n%{z=R0d88: O{^)NYf]Ys.D#w`R':o+%gkH,f.bZyYp]`)+}?f8$&{,Gz@z9ou=N]Z}o0CI]q&n\\kz/Op@\cg15@S[z&bb'f`2T,a> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!oh-clevelandheights-cdnt1-bg2c-65.clvdoh.adelphia.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144365 Belba Grubb from Stock wrote in news:0m2k305od67em9qb2pfn7qn4ns8m9qi9f2@4ax.com: > However, when any FAQ is used to the detriment of a thread > -- and in this particular thread, the issue is neither > message layout nor correct quoting sequence (which as we see > all around us all of the time is a matter of individual > taste, not an order dictated as if it were a programming > requirement of some sort of a Usenet "operating system"); It is a usenet convention to not top-post. It is also mannerly, and makes reading the replies easier, as you get a sense of what the replies are referring to. It is also a usenet convention to trim when replying, for many of the same reasons as above, which very few people here even try to enforce. Having to scroll past 60+ lines of 4 other posters' replies to read a single one line comment on the 3rd sentence of the 4th paragraph is very annoying. As I've only seen Bella top-post once, and have seen her post properly many other times, I don't see that there was a need for a public spanking about it. There isn't a need to whine about being spanked, either, as it was a transgression. -- mc ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: On Fairy-Stories (Was Re: How did Orodruin work in the second age?) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:40:21 -0600 Organization: Very little, but I try Message-ID: <40sm3013eubhrhrprvtn2mojs1b1nsajeb@4ax.com> References: <1qhh30dq36ecumnt195rf7pr1pkifpdvqe@4ax.com> <0m2k305od67em9qb2pfn7qn4ns8m9qi9f2@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeeds.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!216.196.106.144!border2.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:144399 On 24 Feb 2004 03:40:31 GMT, "TeaLady (Mari C.)" wrote: >It is a usenet convention to not top-post. It is also >mannerly, and makes reading the replies easier, as you get a >sense of what the replies are referring to. > >It is also a usenet convention to trim when replying, for many >of the same reasons as above, which very few people here even >try to enforce. Having to scroll past 60+ lines of 4 other >posters' replies to read a single one line comment on the 3rd >sentence of the 4th paragraph is very annoying. > >As I've only seen Bella top-post once, and have seen her post >properly many other times, I don't see that there was a need >for a public spanking about it. There isn't a need to whine >about being spanked, either, as it was a transgression. Thank you, TeaLady. I'll be more careful about following the convention from now on. Barb _____ Evil is unspectacular and always human and shares our bed and eats at our own table. -- W. H. Aulden, quoted by Dan Warner