From: Brenda Selwyn Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Frodo Prophetic? (was: The Scouring (script treatment)) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:27:15 +0000 Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3ff6bc5d@news.dnainternet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: matson.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1075238810 27223 80.177.217.209 (27 Jan 2004 21:26:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:26:50 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140761 >"Aris Katsaris" wrote: >In the book, Frodo slowly gains something of a prophetic element -- >most notably in the last chapter he foresees Sam's numerous children >and that he will be mayor as long as he wants... Do you see this as prophetic? I see it simply as a set of particularly shrewd and insightful guesses. Given how well Frodo knows Sam, Rosie and the conservative habits of his fellow countrymen, everything he says seems fairly obvious. There's also a certain amount of opportunity for his words to be self-fullfilling. I've never seen Frodo as having any gift of foresight - just being perhaps more perceptive than most Hobbits. What else do you base your statement on? Brenda -- ************************************************************************* Brenda Selwyn "In England's green and pleasant land" "If we were 'grown up' and 'had a clue' we wouldn't be wasting our time posting here." - The Softrat ###### Reply-To: "Conrad B Dunkerson" From: "Conrad B Dunkerson" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3ff6bc5d@news.dnainternet.net> Subject: Re: Frodo Prophetic? (was: The Scouring (script treatment)) Lines: 22 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2055 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2055 Message-ID: <4OCRb.6440$bx.4513@nwrdny02.gnilink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:49:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.153.169.111 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1075247360 141.153.169.111 (Tue, 27 Jan 2004 18:49:20 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 18:49:20 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140813 "Brenda Selwyn" wrote in message news:htld10tfll5tff0ah9jdui0fe84kqr9i47@4ax.com... > I've never seen Frodo as having any gift of foresight - just being > perhaps more perceptive than most Hobbits. What else do you base > your statement on? Frodo had a number of 'prophetic' dreams (the barrow wight, Gandalf's imprisonment and escape, sailing to Aman, et cetera) and there is also; "Goldilocks had gone to bed, for in this Frodo's foretelling had made a slight error and she came after Pippin, and was still only five and the Red Book rather too much for her yet." SD, The Epilogue This indicates that Frodo was off in the order of 'boys / girls' by one, but it is also called "foretelling" by the narrator. At that, Frodo himself says, "...and perhaps more that I cannot see." Implying that he COULD foresee the ones he had spoken of. Not definitive, but suggestive of a pattern. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Frodo Prophetic? (was: The Scouring (script treatment)) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 01:58:42 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 71 Message-ID: References: <3ff6bc5d@news.dnainternet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p095.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1075248362 17763 212.205.253.95 (28 Jan 2004 00:06:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 00:06:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140820 "Brenda Selwyn" wrote in message news:htld10tfll5tff0ah9jdui0fe84kqr9i47@4ax.com... > >"Aris Katsaris" wrote: > > >In the book, Frodo slowly gains something of a prophetic element -- > >most notably in the last chapter he foresees Sam's numerous children > >and that he will be mayor as long as he wants... > > Do you see this as prophetic? I see it simply as a set of > particularly shrewd and insightful guesses. Given how well Frodo > knows Sam, Rosie and the conservative habits of his fellow countrymen, > everything he says seems fairly obvious. His exact phrase was: "And also you have Rose, and Elanor; and Frodo-lad will come, and Rosie-lass, and Merry, and Goldilocks and Pippin; and perhaps more that I cannot see." Now, you could think that given Sam's personality it'd be likely that he'd name his children after his friends and wife... But fortelling that he'd have a second golden-haired daughter, to be named "Goldilocks" ? And even more than that, using the phrase "perhaps more that I cannot see"? Certainly the usage of the word "see" indicates fore-*sight* to me. Even if Frodo was delusional, and his words self-fulfilling.. he certainly seems to *believe* to have "seen" these children of Sam... Also from the unpublished epilogue to LOTR, published in HoME 9, "Sauron" defeated, we have the words: "Goldilocks had gone to bed, for in this Frodo's foretelling had made a slight error and she came after Pippin, and was still only five and the Red Book rather too much for her yet." So, Sam's family also consider Frodo's words a "foretelling" rather than a simple guess... even if it ended up a slightly mistaken one. You may also consider as prophetic the words he spoke to Gollum at Mount Doom, that "if you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom". Now, you may want something even clearer as evidence, but really there's no clear-cut prophecies even among the people that we are flat-out *told* are people of foresight, such as Aragorn. Insight and Foresight and Perceptiveness seem to roll into one in these cases... Anyway, even if you deny the idea of Frodo going prophetic, the word "Saruman" I used in my "script" is small enough that it could equally well be a good shrewd guess, based on the similarities between the needless destruction of trees in the Shire, and the needless destruction of trees in Fangorn. > There's also a certain > amount of opportunity for his words to be self-fullfilling. True. True. > I've never seen Frodo as having any gift of foresight - just being > perhaps more perceptive than most Hobbits. What else do you base your > statement on? The choice of words he used, even more than the guess itself - and ofcourse it being called a foretelling in the unpublished Epilogue... And the words at Mount Doom, which fit in the idea of Frodo going prophetic... Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Frodo Prophetic? (was: The Scouring (script treatment)) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 02:00:34 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <3ff6bc5d@news.dnainternet.net> <4OCRb.6440$bx.4513@nwrdny02.gnilink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p095.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1075248474 18262 212.205.253.95 (28 Jan 2004 00:07:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 00:07:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140822 "Conrad B Dunkerson" wrote in message news:4OCRb.6440$bx.4513@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... > "Brenda Selwyn" wrote in message > news:htld10tfll5tff0ah9jdui0fe84kqr9i47@4ax.com... > > > I've never seen Frodo as having any gift of foresight - just being > > perhaps more perceptive than most Hobbits. What else do you base > > your statement on? > > Frodo had a number of 'prophetic' dreams (the barrow wight, Gandalf's > imprisonment and escape, sailing to Aman, et cetera) Thank you -- I had almost forgotten the added example of his dream at Bombadil's house, and others like it... Aris Katsaris ###### Reply-To: "Conrad B Dunkerson" From: "Conrad B Dunkerson" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3ff6bc5d@news.dnainternet.net> Subject: Re: Frodo Prophetic? (was: The Scouring (script treatment)) Lines: 18 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2055 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2055 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 00:20:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.153.169.111 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1075249257 141.153.169.111 (Tue, 27 Jan 2004 19:20:57 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 19:20:57 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!ef6ee649!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140829 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:bv6ud9$hb3$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr... > Now, you may want something even clearer as evidence, but really > there's no clear-cut prophecies even among the people that we are > flat-out *told* are people of foresight, such as Aragorn. Well, there are some pretty direct ones; Glorfindel's WK prophecy Halbarad's 'if I go this way I will die' prophecy Dirhael's 'Arathorn is gonna get killed' prophecy Ivorwen's 'oh let the kids get married' prophecy Of course some of them are also rather self-fulfilling; Malbeth's 'name the kid Arvedui, it'll be great' prophecy Malbeth's 'hey Aragorn, take the Paths of the Dead' prophecy The 'ok time to reforge Narsil' prophecy ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Frodo Prophetic? (was: The Scouring (script treatment)) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 02:56:32 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3ff6bc5d@news.dnainternet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p095.otenet.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 1075251836 27286 212.205.253.95 (28 Jan 2004 01:03:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 01:03:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140843 "Conrad B Dunkerson" wrote in message news:JfDRb.6538$bx.3685@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... > "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message > news:bv6ud9$hb3$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr... > > > Now, you may want something even clearer as evidence, but really > > there's no clear-cut prophecies even among the people that we are > > flat-out *told* are people of foresight, such as Aragorn. > > Well, there are some pretty direct ones; > Glorfindel's WK prophecy. > > Halbarad's 'if I go this way I will die' prophecy Lucky guesses. Both of them. ;-) > Dirhael's 'Arathorn is gonna get killed' prophecy But perhaps he was just being perceptive, having evaluated the risks Arathorn was used to taking, versus his skill in handling them? > Ivorwen's 'oh let the kids get married' prophecy She just wanted grandchildren. :-) Aris Katsaris ###### From: Menelvagor@mailandnews.com (Count Menelvagor) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Frodo Prophetic? (was: The Scouring (script treatment)) Date: 27 Jan 2004 22:58:01 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6bfb27a8.0401272258.359dd8f4@posting.google.com> References: <3ff6bc5d@news.dnainternet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.63.221.56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1075273081 4965 127.0.0.1 (28 Jan 2004 06:58:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 06:58:01 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140901 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:... > "Conrad B Dunkerson" wrote in message > news:JfDRb.6538$bx.3685@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... > > Glorfindel's WK prophecy. > > > > Halbarad's 'if I go this way I will die' prophecy > > Lucky guesses. Both of them. ;-) > > > Dirhael's 'Arathorn is gonna get killed' prophecy > > But perhaps he was just being perceptive, having evaluated > the risks Arathorn was used to taking, versus his skill in > handling them? > > > Ivorwen's 'oh let the kids get married' prophecy > > She just wanted grandchildren. :-) Waht about Aragorn's "Like d00d, Moria is gonna be a b*tch" prophecy?