From: Biloba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Size of Rivendell Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 10:15:29 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 78 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!nnx.oleane.net!oleane!teaser.fr!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140158 Quoth Glenn Holliday on 01/28/2004: >I had forgotten, till I stumbled across the passage again, that >the Last Alliance rested for a while at Imladris before the attack >on Mordor. We've talked recently about the small size and stature >of Elrond's holdings. This is the same passage that describes >this army as the greatest since the Valar came against Morgoth. >So either Elrond has a big front yard, or the Last Homely House >is a TARDIS. Not to mention the larder to feed that host. Google brough up one of the earlier discussions after a search for a post to RABT with "Size of Rivendell" in the subject line: http://www.google.com/groups?q=group:rec.arts.books.tolkien+insubject:%22size+of+rivendell%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=js1vru0h1q16k16bh7g93e6vq2crcf8s75%404ax.com&rnum=1 While this focuses on the building(s), I've always thought of Imladris as the valley itself. However, your question made me take a second look, and I think now that Elrond had a *big* yard (front, back and either side) of around 150 square miles in size, in total acreage somewhere between Albuquerque, NM, and New Orleans, LA: enough to house a huge host if it were arranged in tight military bivouac formation rather than spread out as these cities are (note: with everybody spread out, Albuquerque had around 385,000 people in it and New Orleans some 497,000 souls in 1990). A much wider area, of course, would be available for hunting and foraging for food. There are clues to the size of Rivendell in the appendices to "The Lord of the Rings" (history of the Third Age) and in the map at the back of Book I, as well as in the knowledge that Elrond had the waters of Bruinen under his control and could call up a flood when necessary. In the latter half of the 14th Century, Third Age, it's said in the appendix that Rivendell was besieged (but clearly not defeated, as an army from Elrond eventually was sent out against the Witch-king's forces in, I think, Rhudaur). Thus, the hidden refuge couldn't be limited to just the deep cleft: while such a place is handy for hiding, once discovered it becomes a trap. Any besiegers encircling the tops of the cliffs surrounding the valley would have had an easy time of wiping out the Elves down there, and Elrond would hardly have been wise if he hadn't realized that. [An attack by air (by Smaug, for instance) would be equally devastating, though one wonders if the Valar, in this situation, would have allowed Elrond's father, who had fought the dragon in the air during the War of Wrath, to come to his aid.] As to exact measurements, a closer look at the map shows Rivendell to be situated in between the two streams that meet southwest of Rivendell to form the Bruinen, along which river, not too far away there is the Ford. In both "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" we are also told that there is still a fair piece of ground to cover before the actual Valley is reached, and this is confirmed on the map (though the map does show one of the tributary roots of the Bruinen flowing between Rivendell and the Ford of Bruinen, and I don't remember it ever being mentioned in the books that another big stream had to be crossed to get to the Last Homely House. Perhaps that's the stream in the valley itself where Thorin and Co had to be so careful to cross the bridge?). My guess is that Elrond could somehow use the Ring of Sapphire to control water and thus would have built his refuge in the angle between two apparently unnamed streams or small rivers that joined a little to the south to form the Bruinen, with the Mountains on the East (with all their rich water resources above and below ground) as a barrier in that direction. With roughly a 50-mile base and a height of perhaps 60 miles, per the map, that gives the refuge a total area of about 150 square miles, if I've got the geometry right (a big "if"! - g). And the host could perhaps have sprawled out beyond the actual stream boundaries some. There was room and Imladris wasn't besieged at that time and had no enemies close by. Barb "There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West. Some courage and some wisdom, blended in measure. If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." -- Thorin Oakenshield, to Bilbo ###### From: "Christopher Kreuzer" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Size of Rivendell Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <5lTQb.9340$8X2.101037170@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:49:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.43.164.176 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1075052993 82.43.164.176 (Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:49:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:49:53 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140175 "Biloba Grubb from Stock" wrote > My guess is that Elrond could somehow use the Ring of Sapphire to > control water Why? The Ring of Sapphire was the Ring of Air. Galadriel had the Ring of Adamant (the Ring of Water). And anyway, the three Elven Rings were not for technological purposes. They were to prevent decay and change. Liked the speculations and measurements of Rivendell. Christopher -- --- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard ###### From: Biloba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Size of Rivendell Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:49:07 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <0rk810d3k804ti9ker0ih4958v0neg7lfj@4ax.com> References: <5lTQb.9340$8X2.101037170@news-text.cableinet.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140301 On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:49:53 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote: >Why? The Ring of Sapphire was the Ring of Air. Galadriel had the Ring of >Adamant (the Ring of Water). And anyway, the three Elven Rings were not >for technological purposes. They were to prevent decay and change. An excellent point (too, I had thought of Galadriel's use of water in her Mirror), but otherwise it was hard to explain Elrond's ability to call up a flood to defend Rivendell. Gandalf added a few touches when the Nine were about to cross it, but Elrond himself seems to have had the ability to bring on the flood. >Liked the speculations and measurements of Rivendell. Glad to hear it. That's about the only relatively practical use I've made thus far of all that geometry they made us memorize in high school (g). And even then, I had to look up the formula again. Barb ###### From: mair_fheal@yahoo.com (cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Size of Rivendell Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:26:44 -0800 Organization: eden huntersstrand Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c129.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140334 > limited to just the deep cleft: while such a place is handy for > hiding, once discovered it becomes a trap. Any besiegers encircling > the tops of the cliffs surrounding the valley would have had an easy > time of wiping out the Elves down there, and Elrond would hardly have > been wise if he hadn't realized that. [An attack by air (by Smaug, there are two rivers and elronds house is in the canyon of one of them between the two rivers the crossings of one river was defended as described in the hobbit and presumably so were the crossings of the other that would mean an attacker would have to go far enough into the misty mountains to find a place shallow enough to force a crossing of either river ###### Message-ID: <40148262.FE472C9C@yahoo-dot.ca> From: Odysseus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,fr-CA,fr,fr-FR,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Size of Rivendell References: <5lTQb.9340$8X2.101037170@news-text.cableinet.net> <0rk810d3k804ti9ker0ih4958v0neg7lfj@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 02:57:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 142.59.180.6 X-Trace: edtnps89 1075085865 142.59.180.6 (Sun, 25 Jan 2004 19:57:45 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 19:57:45 MST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!newsfeed2.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!edtnps89.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140341 Biloba Grubb from Stock wrote: > > On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:49:53 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" > wrote: > > >Why? The Ring of Sapphire was the Ring of Air. Galadriel had the Ring of > >Adamant (the Ring of Water). And anyway, the three Elven Rings were not > >for technological purposes. They were to prevent decay and change. > > An excellent point (too, I had thought of Galadriel's use of water in > her Mirror), but otherwise it was hard to explain Elrond's ability to > call up a flood to defend Rivendell. Gandalf added a few touches when > the Nine were about to cross it, but Elrond himself seems to have had > the ability to bring on the flood. > Certainly, unless Gandalf was being uncharacteristically modest about his contribution. I didn't think the flood had anything to do with Elrond's Ring specifically, but rather to his affinity with or mastery of the place itself, as if he had assumed the role of a _genius loci_. Such powers seem to be available, to one degree or another, to some other great elf-lords as well. -- Odysseus ###### From: Biloba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Size of Rivendell Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 19:46:30 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <9a2e10pcuobdhtt6dbe96h52d523fque89@4ax.com> References: <5lTQb.9340$8X2.101037170@news-text.cableinet.net> <0rk810d3k804ti9ker0ih4958v0neg7lfj@4ax.com> <40148262.FE472C9C@yahoo-dot.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 89 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140852 On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 02:57:45 GMT, Odysseus wrote: >Certainly, unless Gandalf was being uncharacteristically modest about >his contribution Not too likely! (g) >I didn't think the flood had anything to do with >Elrond's Ring specifically, but rather to his affinity with or >mastery of the place itself, as if he had assumed the role of a >_genius loci_. Such powers seem to be available, to one degree or >another, to some other great elf-lords as well. Perhaps, though I can't recall right offhand any other elf lords with such power...in "The Silmarillion" or works published by Christopher Tolkien perhaps something is mentioned? However, I will take the line here that Elrond indeed used Vilya to flood the river(s) when needed. True, it was called the Ring of Air, and in _The Lord of the Rings_ and _The Silmarillion_ stars seem often to be associated where it's mentioned (for example: "...the Ring of Sapphire was with Elrond, in the fair valley of Rivendell, upon whose house the stars of heaven most brightly shone," from "Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age," in _The Silmarillion_), but that just could be an echo of the heritage of Earendil (consistent with the "el" root in Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir); the root of the word "vilya" references the Lower Region of the airs, underneath that of the stars and closest to Middle-earth (or so I'm told at The Encyclopedia of Arda at http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm?http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/v/vilya.html I haven't studied this on my own, and comments and corrections from those who have would be welcomed). But assuming that's right, well, we know from the meteorology of our own days that water is one of the prime movers of events in what we, in our modern scientific silliness, call the Troposphere rather than the Lower Region of Elvish lore. So a Ring of Power associated with this region closest to Earth/Middle-earth would be expected to interact with water. And there really is no clear-cut dividing line between water and the air, as anyone who's been caught in a fog or sweltered through a humid summer day can attest to. This is echoed in "The Ainulindale" of _The Silmarillion_: "And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.' "Then Ulmo answered: 'Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwe, that he and I may make melodies for ever to thy delight!' And Manwe and Ulmo have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Iluvatar." It's possible that Vilya was the greatest of the Three Rings precisely because it echoed in a very small way this great friendship of Manwe and air and Ulmo and water; if so, then certainly it would have been natural for Elrond to use it to control the waters of his hidden refuge. Certainly that would be a very necessary act of preservation, consistent with the overall purpose of the Rings. Barb "The tree is ten thousand feet tall. Its leaves fall all over. You can boil them, But you can't broil them." -- Vietnamese riddle Answer: The rain drops. (from "Vietnamese Literature: A Brief Survey" by Nguyen Dinh Hoa, 1994) ###### From: Biloba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Size of Rivendell Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:01:37 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 34 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in2p3.fr!nnx.oleane.net!oleane!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140856 On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:26:44 -0800, mair_fheal@yahoo.com (cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) wrote: >there are two rivers >and elronds house is in the canyon of one of them >between the two rivers Yes, that makes sense. It's not shown on the map that way, but it's a poor hidden refuge that is shown accurately on any map. >the crossings of one river was defended as described in the hobbit >and presumably so were the crossings of the other > >that would mean an attacker would have to go far enough into the misty mountains >to find a place shallow enough to force a crossing of either river Yes, that narrow bridge probably was a good defense, especially if the river beneath it were in flood. But elsewhere in the stories we're told of travellers arriving suddenly at the top of the valley and looking down at the lights of the Last Homely House shining below them. Troops of the Witch-king of Angmar could look down on it, too, and fire down on it. And the Witch-king would be able to summon loads of Orcs to come in from the East, from the mountains; they wouldn't need to cross it if they came down from above the springs of the two. rivers. And from the north: Trolls and assorted other "low life" from the Ettenmoors (if the refuge were in a canyon of the northern river). Hmm...maybe Imladris might be too easy to find if it were located right along either one of the rivers. Maybe it really was somewhere inside the angle and a lesser stream ran through it (a last defense, perhaps, as well as a necessity for daily living). Bilbo perhaps was confused in his memoirs. Barb ###### From: "Bruce Tucker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Size of Rivendell Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 22:15:54 -0500 Organization: LexisNexis, Dayton, Ohio, USA Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <5lTQb.9340$8X2.101037170@news-text.cableinet.net> <0rk810d3k804ti9ker0ih4958v0neg7lfj@4ax.com> <40148262.FE472C9C@yahoo-dot.ca> <9a2e10pcuobdhtt6dbe96h52d523fque89@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.121.40.95 X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 1075259875 13114 10.121.40.95 (28 Jan 2004 03:17:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@lexisnexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 03:17:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!feed.news.tiscali.de!uio.no!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!ash.uu.net!lexisnexis.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:140863 I'm still catching up with reading all of this and the rest of the newsgroup, but if the idea is that Elrond's use of his Ring was important in his selection of the site for Rivendell or for his initial mastery of the waters of the area, that would be impossible. Sauron was still in possession of the Ruling Ring when Rivendell was founded in the Second Age and the bearers of the Three wouldn't have dared to wear or use them. It is of course possible that his ability to produce effects such as the flood was greater during the Third Age, when he was able to use his Ring, than it had been during the Second Age, but overall I think the Three were used for holding off the ravages of time itself, not for military defense of any sort. -- Bruce Tucker disintegration@mindspring.com ###### From: "Chocoholic" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Size of Rivendell Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:59:52 -0500 Organization: NOT! Message-ID: <101gq7rjlc4jl2b@corp.supernews.com> References: <5lTQb.9340$8X2.101037170@news-text.cableinet.net> <0rk810d3k804ti9ker0ih4958v0neg7lfj@4ax.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:141059 "Biloba Grubb from Stock" wrote in message news:0rk810d3k804ti9ker0ih4958v0neg7lfj@4ax.com... > On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:49:53 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer" > wrote: > > >Why? The Ring of Sapphire was the Ring of Air. Galadriel had the Ring of > >Adamant (the Ring of Water). And anyway, the three Elven Rings were not > >for technological purposes. They were to prevent decay and change. > > An excellent point (too, I had thought of Galadriel's use of water in > her Mirror), but otherwise it was hard to explain Elrond's ability to > call up a flood to defend Rivendell. Gandalf added a few touches when > the Nine were about to cross it, but Elrond himself seems to have had > the ability to bring on the flood. > Remember: Elrond is descended from both Elven royalty _and_ the 'Three Houses of the Edain' including one particular family - the houseof Hador - that gets a lot of attention from Ulmo. Also, Elrond miraculously 'found' this river valley when he was being pursued by the vastly superior pursuing armies of Sauron. Accident? Or another intervention by Ulmo that Tolkien just didn't get around to elevating to 'canon' with a written text? I strongly suspect that if asked to justify Elrond's power over the Bruinen he would have cited Ulmo, not the Ring of 'Air' ('Vilya' actually means 'the Firmament', the 'Dome of Heaven'). ###### From: NobodyMan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Size of Rivendell Message-ID: <1jqg1054csut59i2ivlsqegn4asv9b5dc8@4ax.com> References: <5lTQb.9340$8X2.101037170@news-text.cableinet.net> <0rk810d3k804ti9ker0ih4958v0neg7lfj@4ax.com> <40148262.FE472C9C@yahoo-dot.ca> <9a2e10pcuobdhtt6dbe96h52d523fque89@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:08:17 EST Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:06:26 -0500 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!63.223.6.99.MISMATCH!c03.atl99!news.usenetserver.com!fe12.usenetserver.com.POSTED!83ce148c!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:141062 On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 22:15:54 -0500, "Bruce Tucker" wrote: >I'm still catching up with reading all of this and the rest of the >newsgroup, but if the idea is that Elrond's use of his Ring was >important in his selection of the site for Rivendell or for his initial >mastery of the waters of the area, that would be impossible. Sauron was >still in possession of the Ruling Ring when Rivendell was founded in the >Second Age and the bearers of the Three wouldn't have dared to wear or >use them. Not to mention that Elrond didn't have the Elven ring when he founded Rivendell. It was still in possession of Gil-Galad at that time. ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Size of Rivendell Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:12:39 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <5lTQb.9340$8X2.101037170@news-text.cableinet.net> <0rk810d3k804ti9ker0ih4958v0neg7lfj@4ax.com> <40148262.FE472C9C@yahoo-dot.ca> <9a2e10pcuobdhtt6dbe96h52d523fque89@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 55 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!feed2.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!63.223.6.99.MISMATCH!c03.atl99!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:141060 On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 22:15:54 -0500, "Bruce Tucker" wrote: >I'm still catching up with reading all of this and the rest of the >newsgroup, but if the idea is that Elrond's use of his Ring was >important in his selection of the site for Rivendell or for his initial >mastery of the waters of the area, that would be impossible. Sauron was >still in possession of the Ruling Ring when Rivendell was founded in the >Second Age and the bearers of the Three wouldn't have dared to wear or >use them. > >It is of course possible that his ability to produce effects such as the >flood was greater during the Third Age, when he was able to use his >Ring, than it had been during the Second Age, but overall I think the >Three were used for holding off the ravages of time itself, not for >military defense of any sort. That's a very good point that certainly requires explanation. There is a statement in one entry for Vilya at "The Encyclopedia of Arda" (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm?http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/v/vilya.html -- click on "The Blue Ring" link) that Gil-Galad gave Vilya to Elrond (presumably just before he sent Elrond to Eregion when Sauron's forces invaded Eriador in 1695, two years after the Three had been hidden) "to aid the founding of Rivendell" in 1697. Unfortunately, they don't give a reference for this statement, but I assume (correctly or otherwise) that it comes from some of the background information Christopher Tolkien has published, most of which I haven't read yet; can anybody verify that? However, as you say, how would Elrond have been able to use the Ring before Sauron lost the One Ring? Yet how would Elrond have been able to found Imladris in such conditions without some additional power? He was just an Elf Lord, not even of the Calaquendi; the Noldor were on the run, and the evil Maia was triumphant with his forces rampant throughout Eriador. Sauron was actively searching for the Rings, and the Elves couldn't have escaped him for long in those conditions just by tiptoeing away under cover to some place where he wouldn't be likely to look. He was looking everywhere. I can't think of any explanation for Elrond's remarkable success in founding Imladris pretty much under Sauron's nose, as well as the power over the rivers he later demonstrated in the Third Age, other than the use of Vilya. This has perhaps already been discussed here, so I'll check out Google before going much further. Suffice to say now that I think the answer lies in this direction: that while the Elves first took off their Rings when Sauron put on his and hid them and never used their Rings *openly* while Sauron still had the One in his possession, the Three might still have been used cautiously and in a limited way while concealed. Barb ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:19:44 -0600 From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Size of Rivendell Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:23:12 -0800 Message-ID: References: <5lTQb.9340$8X2.101037170@news-text.cableinet.net> <0rk810d3k804ti9ker0ih4958v0neg7lfj@4ax.com> <40148262.FE472C9C@yahoo-dot.ca> <9a2e10pcuobdhtt6dbe96h52d523fque89@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 66 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.169.63.59 X-Trace: sv3-ftZA6SRj9CM2G+jGxUjpxqD4o2YKBAE4JpkYhKPEz2L/TW0uvlwnbhIwC7d4m1qUzB83WCpgXgAYeN5!x5nBCxoIr1mwxdM/7RkGHBClkvec8RyDE8C9KO48ak4VsFMmkzl2QPi3O8NrjO2Bd81leNWvGDxe!cVwVEj9H X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:141073 In article , barbb@dbtech.net says... > On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 22:15:54 -0500, "Bruce Tucker" > wrote: > > >I'm still catching up with reading all of this and the rest of the > >newsgroup, but if the idea is that Elrond's use of his Ring was > >important in his selection of the site for Rivendell or for his initial > >mastery of the waters of the area, that would be impossible. Sauron was > >still in possession of the Ruling Ring when Rivendell was founded in the > >Second Age and the bearers of the Three wouldn't have dared to wear or > >use them. > > > >It is of course possible that his ability to produce effects such as the > >flood was greater during the Third Age, when he was able to use his > >Ring, than it had been during the Second Age, but overall I think the > >Three were used for holding off the ravages of time itself, not for > >military defense of any sort. > > That's a very good point that certainly requires explanation. > > There is a statement in one entry for Vilya at "The Encyclopedia of > Arda" > (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm?http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/v/vilya.html > -- click on "The Blue Ring" link) that Gil-Galad gave Vilya to Elrond > (presumably just before he sent Elrond to Eregion when Sauron's forces > invaded Eriador in 1695, two years after the Three had been hidden) > "to aid the founding of Rivendell" in 1697. Unfortunately, they don't > give a reference for this statement, but I assume (correctly or > otherwise) that it comes from some of the background information > Christopher Tolkien has published, most of which I haven't read yet; > can anybody verify that? According to an essay published in Unfinished Tales, Gil-galad gave Vilya to Elrond _after_ the War of Elves and Sauron, at the meeting of the first White Council in Imladris in the Second Age. Thus Rivendell had already been founded and unsuccessfully besieged without the aid of Vilya. > > However, as you say, how would Elrond have been able to use the Ring > before Sauron lost the One Ring? Yet how would Elrond have been able > to found Imladris in such conditions without some additional power? > He was just an Elf Lord, not even of the Calaquendi; the Noldor were > on the run, and the evil Maia was triumphant with his forces rampant > throughout Eriador. Sauron was actively searching for the Rings, and > the Elves couldn't have escaped him for long in those conditions just > by tiptoeing away under cover to some place where he wouldn't be > likely to look. He was looking everywhere. > > I can't think of any explanation for Elrond's remarkable success in > founding Imladris pretty much under Sauron's nose, as well as the > power over the rivers he later demonstrated in the Third Age, other > than the use of Vilya. Why? Elrong was a great power in his own right, directly and closely descended from Melian the Maia. He in effect had the 'blood of gods' in him, as well as that of some of the mightiest of Elves and Men. -- Tar-Elenion Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. ###### From: Stan Brown Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Size of Rivendell Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:57:48 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Message-ID: References: <5lTQb.9340$8X2.101037170@news-text.cableinet.net> <0rk810d3k804ti9ker0ih4958v0neg7lfj@4ax.com> <101gq7rjlc4jl2b@corp.supernews.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.60.2060 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news.alt.net!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:141087 It seems "Chocoholic" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Also, Elrond miraculously 'found' >this river valley when he was being pursued by the vastly superior pursuing >armies of Sauron. Accident? Or another intervention by Ulmo that Tolkien >just didn't get around to elevating to 'canon' with a written text? Well, yes, but after all he _was_ in the foothills of the mountains. River valleys would be rather common in that terrain. Was there anything special about the Bruinen that caused Elrond to stop there, or did the river grow special because the Elves dwelt there? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site) Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Chocoholic" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Size of Rivendell Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:56:12 -0500 Organization: NOT! Message-ID: <101h82t11c4nt7b@corp.supernews.com> References: <5lTQb.9340$8X2.101037170@news-text.cableinet.net> <0rk810d3k804ti9ker0ih4958v0neg7lfj@4ax.com> <101gq7rjlc4jl2b@corp.supernews.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 30 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:141098 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1a825cd62dda582398bd14@news.odyssey.net... > It seems "Chocoholic" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Also, Elrond miraculously 'found' > >this river valley when he was being pursued by the vastly superior pursuing > >armies of Sauron. Accident? Or another intervention by Ulmo that Tolkien > >just didn't get around to elevating to 'canon' with a written text? > > Well, yes, but after all he _was_ in the foothills of the mountains. > River valleys would be rather common in that terrain. > > Was there anything special about the Bruinen that caused Elrond to > stop there, or did the river grow special because the Elves dwelt > there? > Yes, that's the question. Why did he stop at _this_ valley? How would he know, since he was 'on the run' from a pursuing enemy and didn't have time for surveys, that this was a defensible place to stop? And was it merely tactics and clever woodsmanship and general 'pluck' that let him survive in that place, or were there mysterious events like mists clinging all day to the floor of the valley or sudden floods washing away anyone trying to come up or down the gorge from a distance and 'flank' the defenders? Elrond's power over the river offers a hint to readers of the Silmarillion that he might have more at his disposal than his native gifts or even the Ring of Power that we learn about at the end of the story. ###### From: Belba Grubb from Stock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Size of Rivendell Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:47:05 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <5lTQb.9340$8X2.101037170@news-text.cableinet.net> <0rk810d3k804ti9ker0ih4958v0neg7lfj@4ax.com> <40148262.FE472C9C@yahoo-dot.ca> <9a2e10pcuobdhtt6dbe96h52d523fque89@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 46 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!nnx.oleane.net!oleane!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:141162 On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:23:12 -0800, Tar-Elenion wrote: >According to an essay published in Unfinished Tales, Gil-galad gave Vilya >to Elrond _after_ the War of Elves and Sauron, at the meeting of the >first White Council in Imladris in the Second Age. Thus Rivendell had >already been founded and unsuccessfully besieged without the aid of >Vilya. Well, that seems pretty definite. I will try to find out why they say that at "The Encylopedia of Arda." But still, >> I can't think of any explanation for Elrond's remarkable success in >> founding Imladris pretty much under Sauron's nose, as well as the >> power over the rivers he later demonstrated in the Third Age, other >> than the use of Vilya. > >Why? Elrong was a great power in his own right, directly and closely >descended from Melian the Maia. He in effect had the 'blood of gods' in >him, as well as that of some of the mightiest of Elves and Men. He was indeed high up among the Great and mighty among both Elves and Men. But of the few excerpts of "Letters" that I have read, one included JRRT's discussion of just how bad Sauron was (I forget the context now but think it might have been in a discussion of Aragorn possibly facing down the Dark Lord): I can't quote the precise text, but the general gist of it was that one shouldn't discount just how powerful and evil Sauron was. He really couldn't be beaten in a direct attack (though that's not how JRRT put it); this, during the Third Age, without his Ring. Therefore, in the Second Age and wearing the newly made Ring, one truly believes that no one who was not of the Maiar, and this includes Elrond (and probably not many Maia, either -- given Gandalf's remark later, in the Third Age, that he was not yet strong enough to tackle Sauron directly), could by their own native power have successfully evaded Sauron, as well as established and hidden Rivendell so close to the Dark Lord and his force then controlling Eriador. But if the Three could be hidden, then it seems that something established with any one of the Three could also be hidden. Well, will get back to this when I've read up on it more. Thanks to all for an excellent discussion. Barb